Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[ktgrok]

Also, you said people told you that your problems were your own fault, and explained how you had messed up and deserved this. Who on EARTH does this? A friend wouldn't, that would be mean. A stranger? I can't imagine a stranger coming up to me and explaining to me my faults in life. People on the radio/tv? Ignore them. 

 

Honestly, when I ended up living with my parents at 30, divorced (when really, I SHOULD have known better), a single mom without a high paying job, NO ONE tried to blame me. They helped me, supported me emotionally, and were amazing. Anyone who felt different kept their mouth shut. Even my parents never said "I told you so" and they had every right to do so.

 

what awful people are you spending time with?

[Night Elf]

 

Why? Why do some not have to work?

 

 

I can answer for myself. I do not work because DH and I are satisfied with how our lives are going in this moment. Sure, I can work and we could afford more stuff. A bigger house. Newer cars. Long, expensive vacations. They just aren't important to us. We're happy with what we have. The one thing I do wish I could do is help build our retirement fund. I don't think you can have too much money in one, obviously. But DH, who is the financial guru in our marriage, believes that by the time he retires, we'll have enough to live on for the rest of our lives. So therefore we feel we are doing okay.

 

At first I was bothered that you were judging my lifestyle because I'm doing all the things you think are horrid. But this problem truly lays in your lap. I can sit at home and twiddle my thumbs and it has no bearing on your life. I'd say I was sorry you can't do the same thing, but I'm not sure you would be happy. We're just different people.

[SKL]

Or is it like when people say "it's great if you can breastfeed" and certain formula-feeders think "they're saying I'm scum and my kid is neglected because I don't breastfeed."

Edited May 27, 2016 by SKL

[ErinE]

Can we get away from left vs right discussions and politicians? I've lived in many different areas, all different political spectrums and I've never heard Tsuga's opinion. I have relatives and friends, left and right and it's insulting to imply they hold these views.

Edited May 27, 2016 by ErinE

[SproutMamaK]

Tsuga, it sounds like you've been treated like crap by a whole lot of people, and that you've internalized the negative views of all of them. You want to find a way to live your life so that no one can speak ill of you and so that if things go badly, no one can look down on you and blame you for it. That is impossible. There will always be assholes out there who will blame you, shame you, and judge you. You'll be judged for working if you have kids. You'll be judged for not working. You'll be judged for choosing a major that didn't lead to a good job. You'll be judged for "selling out" and choosing a major based on wanting a good job instead of following your passions. You'll be judged for being overweight. You'll be judged for being vain if you work out too much. It doesn't matter what you do in life, people will find a way to criticize, belittle, and blame you regardless of your choices. You have to stop trying to find some set of guidelines you can follow that will make everyone respect you; there is no life that is so well-lived that others will not criticize it. (I mean, Jesus lived  a perfect life and look at how people responded to THAT.) You have to stop worrying about what other people think and start just trying to be happy. As it stands now, I hate to say it, but you've crossed over the line; you're no longer the person whose worth others are making hurtful, inaccurate judgments about, you're the one doing the judging. It seems like trying to sit in judgment is harming you far more than anyone else. You keep saying that you thought you'd finally figured out the rules, and now this has completely thrown you off because the rules don't seem to apply to her. Of COURSE the rules don't apply to her. There are no such rules! You feeling taken aback and (it sounds to me) angry and resentful because the illusion you had that you'd figured out the rules has been shattered. It's a whole lot easier for you to resent her for going against these non-existent rules than it is to admit that the rules you've been trying to figure out for so long don't actually exist, and that maybe you need to start from scratch when it comes to figuring out what "living a good life" actually means. There is no single right way to live life, that's part of the joy of being created as individuals with our own gifts and abilities and desires. Let go of the idea of "following the rules to live the right kind of life" and focus on learning about what YOU feel you should be doing with your life, not what a multitude of opposing voices tells you they expect of you. You'll be a lot happier when you give yourself the freedom to make yourself happy and serve others in the ways best suited to you, and you won't find yourself resentful of other people's freedom to do the same.

Edited May 27, 2016 by SproutMamaK

[Artichoke]

Yes, a working wife and husband CAN do this, splitting up the duties. But if the wife was home, they wouldn't have to. Instead of having to fix things and garden and do lawn stuff on the weekend they could be traveling, hiking, attending plays, and relaxing. Doing things that the husband might rather do, because all that stuff got taken care of by his wife while he was at work.

 

If they both work he has to do half the household cleaning, half the errands, half the home maintenance, etc, to be fair. But if she stays home he can do none of it, and his time outside of his job then becomes 100% leisure time, which may very well be worth it for him, to have a less stressful life.

Dh and I had this situation in reverse about seven years into our marriage. We decided it would be better for him to finish his degree so he went back to school full time and became a SAHD while I worked my teaching job and a side job. From the outside, it looked lopsided. From the inside, it was the choice we made to have the least stress on the family. Three years later we had the reverse. Dh was fully employed, and I was the one at home. Edited May 27, 2016 by Artichoke

[SparklyUnicorn]

It sounds like that because that's exactly it.

 

I can't believe someone doesn't have to work and that's a socially acceptable option that someone would blithely mention at work as if it were not something shocking. That's why I'm asking, I'm saying, I have a negative impression of this and I'd like to improve my impression so please explain how it works, what is the value in this.

 

There isn't anything you could do to avoid someone out there thinking you are doing the wrong thing.  But it doesn't matter what strangers think. 

 

And it's ok to have a negative impression.  We all have our opinions.  And believe me, this goes both ways.  Some SAH people think those who insist on both spouses working are doing it wrong as well. 

[elegantlion]

The Rules of Life: 

 

Rule #1: Life is not fair

 

Rule #2: When it doubt, refer to rule #1

 

I'll admit I have times on this board when I realize I did the same things many women on here do and I feel jealous or bitter. I was was a good homeschooling mom, a good wife, and somehow I ended up divorced, alone, broke, and digging my way back up in my mid 40s. It's easy to think how I placed my trust in the wrong person and somehow I ended up here when others did not (Refer to Rule #1). I think ex was a genuinely surprised about some of the downfalls as me (Also rule #1). Life sucks sometimes, but all I can do is try to muck out the crap in my own little circle. 

 

We're all a mix of our past experiences, perspectives, and circumstances (whether you created them or not). Mix it up and everyone, every relationship, looks different. There is not a rule book like a book of etiquette. Rules are social constructs and as vast as this country is geographically, it's just as vast socially. Years ago when people didn't move as frequently, it may have been easier to find the "rules" for your area (speculation on my part - no data to back this up). Again, they weren't really rules anyway. I'm sure if I visited people in other parts of this country certain things they do naturally - things that seem like rules to them- would be vastly different than how I do them. That doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, it means there is more than one way to do an act. 

 

My status quo growing up was get married, have a stable job or have kids and have your spouse have a stable job while you had the choice whether to work or not, buy a house you live in forever, save for retirement, college, be happy. I was in my late 20s before I realized the "buy a house" part wasn't working well for us, we liked to move, we wanted to travel, we really did prefer the freedom over being tied down by a mortgage. my parents paradigm didn't work for us. Ex felt like a failure because the "buy a house" rule didn't work (long story). He was too rigid to adjust expectations or see that the "rule" wasn't really there in the first place. He saw it working for others while ignoring the ones who also got stuck in the housing crisis and used it to judge his worth to the world. We would have a better relationship if he had ignored it all and tried to salvage OUR relationship instead of trying to mold our relationship to his skewed expectations (Rule #1 & #2). 

 

As the pirates would say "Hang the rules, they're more like guidelines anyway" and those guidelines shift all the time. 

 

 

[HRAAB]

When I hear about a couple where one chooses not to work at a job for pay, and they are able to make work, both financially and emotionally, I have a positive reaction.  Because....that opens up a job for someone else who really needs it to pay rent or put food on the table. Like a single mom, or someone with a disabled spouse who can't work, or a couple where financially it doesn't pay to work (can't earn enough to pay for day care, etc.).  I'm only referring to couples who freely choose not to be employed outside the home.  One the other hand, I do not have a negative reaction where both work when financially they don't need the extra income.

 

My reaction is based on the fact that there aren't enough jobs with a livable wage around here for the people that need them. 

 

Also, I cannot wrap my brain around the idea that this woman is getting free money?  What?  Her dh worked for that money.  How he chooses to dole it out is his decision.  It was not free money; it was earned.  I don't get to tell people how they use their own money.  Supporting a SAHW, SAHM, a mistress, their parents, siblings, a irresponsible friend.  He earned it; his choice.

[JoJosMom]

Can we get away from left vs right discussions and politicians? I've lived in many different areas, all different political spectrums and I've never heard Tsuga's opinion. I have relatives and friends, left and right and it's insulting to imply they hold these views.

 

THANK YOU. 

[ktgrok]

Can we get away from left vs right discussions and politicians? I've lived in many different areas, all different political spectrums and I've never heard Tsuga's opinion. I have relatives and friends, left and right and it's insulting to imply they hold these views.

 

I didn't mean to say most people think the way she is talking, of either political agenda. But there are some talk radio and tv personalities who say what she is saying, or talking about, and although I think she is misinterpreting them (I can't imagine any politician on the right saying women can't stay at home), I do think that not listening to those people might be helpful. Or at least realizing they are just talking heads, not the reality of Americans in general. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

We could do a spin off thread of "Explain to me why some women work full time out of the home and full time in the home and her spouse does not help at home."  Lot of cases of that. 

[KungFuPanda]

It depends on whether the couple plans to have kids eventually. If so, working more now to save for that future would make things easier once the kids arrive, generally.

 

Yes, but she seemed to be asking for a justification for long-term SAHWness and this theory made financial sense to me.

[gardenmom5]

tsuga - you really seem to have very messed up thinking.  I keep wondering if you would benefit from some serious counseling.

 

Also, you said people told you that your problems were your own fault, and explained how you had messed up and deserved this. Who on EARTH does this? A friend wouldn't, that would be mean. A stranger? I can't imagine a stranger coming up to me and explaining to me my faults in life. People on the radio/tv? Ignore them. 

 

Honestly, when I ended up living with my parents at 30, divorced (when really, I SHOULD have known better), a single mom without a high paying job, NO ONE tried to blame me. They helped me, supported me emotionally, and were amazing. Anyone who felt different kept their mouth shut. Even my parents never said "I told you so" and they had every right to do so.

 

what awful people are you spending time with?

 

my sister and I both tried to stop our mother from making a really really stupid choice.  she did it anyway.  afterwards, when she called me to come rescue her, the FIRST THING SHE SAID - was "you can say I told you so now".    I had no desire to say it.  I was sorry she had to learn the hard way, and that I was proven right, and that process hurt her.   

 

reality is - those who really do love us, don't want to say "I told you so".

 

is someone saying "I told you so" to you? or are you just saying it to yourself?  is this the programming which your *family* of  origin trained you to think?  it's time to reject it and adopt a healthier outlook.  'cause this is warped.

 

I can absolutely guarantee you, *everyone* is NOT saying about you what you are saying to yourself.  not even half the strangers you encounter are thinking that.

 

There isn't anything you could do to avoid someone out there thinking you are doing the wrong thing.  But it doesn't matter what strangers think. 

 

And it's ok to have a negative impression.  We all have our opinions.  And believe me, this goes both ways.  Some SAH people think those who insist on both spouses working are doing it wrong as well. 

 

it also often doesn't  matter what our *family* members think.  (associates).   just because they're family, doesn't mean their attitudes are healthy.   unhealthy attitudes *should* be rejected. one of the best choices I ever made in my life was to reject my grandmother's 'permeated everything' teachings and live my life in a *healthy* manner - which did tend to pizz her off.  c'est la vie.  so, I still  got snotty treatment from her, but I was much happier and healthier.  and it shows in my children.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

it also often doesn't  matter what our *family* members think.  (associates).   just because they're family, doesn't mean their attitudes are healthy.   unhealthy attitudes *should* be rejected. one of the best choices I ever made in my life was to reject my grandmother's 'permeated everything' teachings and live my life in a *healthy* manner - which did tend to pizz her off.  c'est la vie.  so, I still  got snotty treatment from her, but I was much happier and healthier.  and it shows in my children.

 

That's true. 

[frogger]

why are you chaging yourself to conform to the beliefs of a@@holes? Seriously? When I meet people that have beliefs I find repugnant, I don't change myself to fit their beliefs, I either ignore them or tell them to shove it. Do you not realize that a huge percentage of Americans do NOT think the way you are describing? 

 

I must confess I must take her at her word that she was exposed to a certain very small group that drives me nuts and understandably derail the conversation into an emotional hoopla of what people deserve. 

 

But it is also very hard for me not to see evidence that  she sounds like a person who is greatly failing a self imposed Ideological Turing Test. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideological_Turing_Test  

Edited May 27, 2016 by frogger

[Guest]

This thread is weird.

 

I'm never moving to Seattle, the people sound hideous!! I can list a hundred ways my small, poor Midwestern hometown has helped people that you claim society doesn't give a shit about.

[Guest]

If you want advice to give your kids tsuga, advise them to marry rich. Seek out wealthy ppl, court them. Marry them with a bulletproof prenup.

 

I mean, that is not invalid advice.

 

Otherwise, what? If that seems trite or unconsvionable advice, then just tell them whatever you feel like telling them. Which is what everyone ends up doing any way.

 

Iow, your kids are going to do whatever they are going to do. The best anyone can do is model their own personal values, be honest abouy where they have struggled, and be there in whatever capacity they are able to muster when their kids struggle.

 

Youre not going to figure out some amazing life altering advice that is garunteed to steer your children through all their options toward a life of ease.

 

Unless you want to go FULL REBA and tell them "just be nice to the gentlemen...and theyll be nice to you."

[QueenCat]

It sounds like that because that's exactly it.

 

I can't believe someone doesn't have to work and that's a socially acceptable option that someone would blithely mention at work as if it were not something shocking. That's why I'm asking, I'm saying, I have a negative impression of this and I'd like to improve my impression so please explain how it works, what is the value in this.

 

Because money doesn't determine the value of a person. Because some people prefer different lifestyles. I cannot fathom not eating dinner until 7:30pm. We typically eat within 15 mins of dh getting home because there are activities to go to after dinner. Why would someone not working being socially unacceptable unless they are capable of working AND it is keeping the necessities of life from their home by them not working? IT IS MOST CERTAINLY SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE FOR A WOMAN TO NOT WORK EVEN WHEN SHE DOESN'T HAVE LITTLE KIDS OR ANY KIDS AT HOME. And what IS NOT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE is for people not involved in those households to pass judgement. Just like it's not okay for me to say you should stay home so dinner will be on the table earlier.

[Guest]

If you want advice to give your kids tsuga, advise them to marry rich. Seek out wealthy ppl, court them. Marry them with a bulletproof prenup.

 

I mean, that is not invalid advice.

 

Otherwise, what? If that seems trite or unconsvionable advice, then just tell them whatever you feel like telling them. Which is what everyone ends up doing any way.

 

Iow, your kids are going to do whatever they are going to do. The best anyone can do is model their own personal values, be honest abouy where they have struggled, and be there in whatever capacity they are able to muster when their kids struggle.

 

Youre not going to figure out some amazing life altering advice that is garunteed to steer your children through all their options toward a life of ease.

 

Unless you want to go FULL REBA and tell them "just be nice to the gentlemen...and theyll be nice to you."

Full Reba! I love it!

 

Tsuga, I'm trying to understand. You were raised by a hippie, you went into a career that was fulfilling but that didn't pay well. You married and had kids. You divorced and realized the not-well-paying career wasn't going to cut it. So, you switched careers. Am I missing something? Why do you think there is some critical piece of information the world is hiding from you? Lots of people make realizations (not fulfilled, poor quality of life, not enough $$) and make career changes. Why is this such a big deal to you?

[gardenmom5]

This thread is weird.

 

I'm never moving to Seattle, the people sound hideous!! I can list a hundred ways my small, poor Midwestern hometown has helped people that you claim society doesn't give a shit about.

 

I was born in seattle.  my parents grew up in seattle. I have family members who live in seattle.  the city itself can be whacky, but I also know people  who are very generous of others.  

 

the ONLY person I've ever  heard spout anything near what tsuga is saying, is my grandmother.  she's from the rural midwest.  she grew up a poor farmers dd, and was very resentful of anyone who didn't have it as hard as her perceptions of herself.   she would never consider doing anything for someone else.  (other than her favorite  immediate family members.)  however,  she had an entitled attitude that people *owed* her.

 

eta: my paternal grandparents were born in seattle/area. (and my grandfather was born in the 19th century) 

Edited May 27, 2016 by gardenmom5

[QueenCat]

 

 

Arctic Mama has never indicated she thinks she is more valuable than you. It really wasn't nice of you to say you>me to her.

[Murphy101]

There is no million dollar question of why my husband provides for me even though I don't bring any income.

 

Just like there's no million dollar question as to why I do not change the locks on the house if he becomes unemployed for some reason.

 

Really this is not that complicated.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Full Reba! I love it!

 

Tsuga, I'm trying to understand. You were raised by a hippie, you went into a career that was fulfilling but that didn't pay well. You married and had kids. You divorced and realized the not-well-paying career wasn't going to cut it. So, you switched careers. Am I missing something? Why do you think there is some critical piece of information the world is hiding from you? Lots of people make realizations (not fulfilled, poor quality of life, not enough $$) and make career changes. Why is this such a big deal to you?

 

Just guessing, but maybe she has always been expected to do everything else too on top of working.  I'd be resentful of that as well.

 

Some of my old fashioned family members are extra weird about this.  My grandfather (no longer alive) was so angry over my grandmother getting a job when money was tight that he outright refused to help around the house just to spite her. 

[zoobie]

The only person mentioning rules is you, Tsuga. 

 

1. Stay at home spouse = freeloader.

2. Stay at home spouse with one child = freeloader. Send kid to daycare and get a job.

3. Stay at home spouse with two or more children = now you're probably doing enough work to earn your keep.

 

The thing is, I've never met any actual people who fall neatly into a category. I haven't known very many stay at home spouses without kids, but there are a few. The one I mentioned earlier, who was actually helping run her family's business and care for her dying father. Another woman who worked 3 crap jobs to put her husband through law school and when he passed the Bar and got a good paying job, she quit all of them. It took a few years for them to have kids. Based on some things they said after they had kids, I believe they had fertility issues they weren't sharing. Another woman who worked a high-stress, high-paying job in finance to support her boyfriend through law school, then fiance as he opened his own firm, then they got married and she quit. No kids for several years. Turns out she had been diagnosed with MS and quit to take care of her stress levels and health. He apologized for not telling DH, one of his good friends, but they wanted privacy to work through it. We told him he didn't owe anyone explanations. Another woman married a very successful attorney and quit her job as a cocktail waitress simply because it sucked. She isn't from the US and was happy to have the cocktail waitress job before she married our friend because it was better than the hotel housekeeper one. They didn't have kids for nearly 10 years. Should she have kept scrubbing toilets just to earn her keep? I briefly worked for him, and there's no amount of cash that would entice me to marry him. She actually seems to genuinely love the man and enjoy being with him, and she's helped him grow his business. She's turned into what I would imagine a corporate wife to be--she makes connections, nurtures them, organizes parties and dinners, all that jazz. She's "worth" much more to him doing that and being available for his mother than she would be waitressing or housekeeping. But I know he wasn't able to anticipate how amazing she would be at that. She loved him, he loved her, and they got married. He was earning enough money to support both of them, and if she had been working at night, they never would've been able to spend time together. 

 

If I meet someone who doesn't talk about having paid employment, I don't assume ANYTHING about them. Maybe they're a trust fund baby. Maybe they are a sex phone operator and don't share. Maybe they're an artist or writer or a student. Maybe they have a disability or illness. Maybe...Who knows! I'm interested in their story because I find people fascinating, but I would never assume anything about them. People and relationships are complicated. It's never as it seems from a one-moment shot in time. 

 

Also, the notion of work = money does not fit in any rules. I know people who make a ton of money working very little. I know many, many more people who make very little money working very hard. If anything, our society seems to value people who make the most money regardless of how hard they work, but from most of your other posts, I would have assumed you would reject this soundly. All people have worth, and what people do in a free society that does not harm anyone else is their own damn business.

[Murphy101]

I was born in seattle. my parents grew up in seattle. I have family members who live in seattle. the city itself can be whacky, but I also know people who are very generous of others.

 

the ONLY person I've ever heard spout anything near what tsuga is saying, is my grandmother. she's from the rural midwest. she grew up a poor farmers dd, and was very resentful of anyone who didn't have it as hard as her perceptions of herself. she would never consider doing anything for someone else. (other than her favorite immediate family members.) however, she had an entitled attitude that people *owed* her.

My dad is like this. He cannot wrap his brain around the concept of kindness for kindness' sake - there has got to be something in it for him. And his marriage was like that too. 35 years before my mother had the mercy of dying from cancer to get out of it bc she never would have stood up to him and thought this was normal and acceptable. My dad doesn't think people owe him necessarily, but he presumes if someone does something just to be nice it means they are trying to scam him or somehow use him. And that they are stupid to help people. He will point blank say those people are just supposed to starve to death and other such worse comments. It's a miserable way to view life and a miserable person to live with.

 

In fact, most of my FOO is like this. I view them as highly toxic people and give them very little access to my life.

 

I'm the black sheep that wandered away. Thank God.

[EKS]

Why? Why do some not have to work?

 

Isn't the answer obvious?

 

They are financially independent, they (as a couple) are able to structure their lives so that they can get by on one income, or some combination of the two.

 

There are lots of valuable things a person can do with their time other than work for pay.

[SKL]

By this logic, men should not be allowed to be parents, because they weren't pregnant.  Fair?

[SKL]

My dad is like this. He cannot wrap his brain around the concept of kindness for kindness' sake - there has got to be something in it for him. And his marriage was like that too. 35 years before my mother had the mercy of dying from cancer to get out of it bc she never would have stood up to him and thought this was normal and acceptable. My dad doesn't think people owe him necessarily, but he presumes if someone does something just to be nice it means they are trying to scam him or somehow use him. And that they are stupid to help people. He will point blank say those people are just supposed to starve to death and other such worse comments. It's a miserable way to view life and a miserable person to live with.

 

In fact, most of my FOO is like this. I view them as highly toxic people and give them very little access to my life.

 

I'm the black sheep that wandered away. Thank God.

 

You just reminded me of a guy I dated (not raised in the US, lest anyone think a US upbringing was at fault).  My parents bought him a very small gift for Christmas since he came for the holiday.  He was very suspicious of their ulterior motives!  Seriously?  And yes, I think he might be a person who would let someone die just because it wasn't his job to feed them.  Once we argued about international adoption (this was before I planned to do it).  He strongly believed that it was better to let abandoned babies die on garbage piles than to let them be adopted into a Christian family.  (Not because he knew of any kids who were hurt that way, just because he hated Christianity that much.)  He was just full of jaw-dropping statements.  I could go on all day.  But he is a lunatic, not the guy who makes the rules for American life.  (For the record, his views were not typical of where he came from, generally, but the religious group he was raised in has the local nickname of the "Hindu Taliban" so ....

[Janeway]

Two things come to mind...

 

I had a friend who was an engineer. When she married another engineer and moved across country, he forbade her to work. He wanted her to be a wife as a wife should be. I do NOT agree with this attitude, but I will stand back and respect their choice to run their marriage as they see fit.

 

Another one is, when my husband took his job that involved relocating, I could not get a competitive job here right away and then found out I was pregnant. Working was not reasonable at that time. I could not invest myself 100% in a job.

 

Another thing is, maybe her degree is not very employable. Maybe she needed additional certifications.

 

But ultimately, it does not matter. Your perception of the situation is strictly your perception, nothing more. It is based on your preset ideas and remarks this guy makes and such. You really do not know the situation and even if you did, this is not for you to judge. 

[QueenCat]

 

I'm truly happy for those that feel secure and happy in their values, but I do wish some people would understand that when values don't function to protect or serve, it's perfectly normal to change those values and to investigate the social phenomena that lead to success and what the values are that back those up.

 

 

 

There are many different ways that social phenomena can lead to success, even in the same society. There are PLENTY of successful families today with one income and PLENTY with two incomes.

[QueenCat]

Did you miss the part where MORE people voted AGAINST that? You know he lost, right? 

 

ROFL...... yes, he lost!

[Bluegoat]

They might be, but frankly, when I volunteer it's mostly retired people and working people. Literally never met a woman or man who didn't have a day job, which is of course why this is the first time I'd heard of such a thing.

 

You'd think I'd meet more no-kids, no-income people in volunteering if they were doing it so much. One does see a lot of SAHMs at certain types of events, but not all. Like I said we have SAHMs at our school, but the PTSA is made up almost entirely of full-time working parents. I used to volunteer much more in non-kid-related things though and day jobs came up less.

 

And yes, most of the duties I share with my partner. My ex-husband did not help at all. He was very demanding of me.

 

As for the "nobody's business", again, I agree but I'm asking about this as a sample case more than a question about her exact life.

 

People want to defend this woman in particular, but I know her husband is very chatty and no doubt has told stories about me to her as well. I am not worried about that. They are slightly less personal, but for example I have step-kids so he knows I'm divorced. They're younger and she might judge me for being divorced. Whatever, let her have her moment of judgment, let her Google it. I'm not bothered by that because like me, she no doubt sees the person in his stories as a one-dimensional object, fascinating, a tidbit of a life she knows nothing about. And she knows I'm more than that, but she might wonder about one side of my life like I wonder about one side of her life.

 

There are actually very few people younger who are at home with no kids, and no other impediments, who are not working.  It has become such a rare thing that you are unlikely to meet them anywhere, including volunteering.  Volunteer organizations have noticed though - as people work more they have more trouble getting volunteers.

 

It may also be the case that such people are more likely to do volunteer work at different times than employed people.

[hjffkj]

My point is to say, I'm asking for someone to describe a value I don't provide, working. To take another family other than ours, it is a dual-income family and they:

 

1. Run a girl scout troop.

2. Run a boy scout troop.

3. Have sit-down dinners nightly, hot dinners, mostly home cooked.

4. Have a garden.

5. Have chickens.

6. Make their own jam.

7. Volunteer at school.

8. Have a reasonably tidy home.

9. Help out refugees.

 

Our list is different but we volunteer, we take charge of projects, we care for ourselves. These are not things you need a SAHS for. Period. To suggest that is really insulting... like we do have pizza some nights, definitely more than at homes where someone is on food all the time. But then... we also cook like 5/7 meals for four kids, one leftover night (which everyone has) and one eat out / eat prepared food night.

You keep saying WE, meaning you and your partner do all these together or at least collectively to run your household while also working. But with a sahw/sahh only one person has to worry about all that. That leaves a lot of extra time for both partners to do things they enjoy either together or separately. That is valuable. Time for joy is valuable. Life shouldn't be just working to earn a paycheck. If a couple is able to work it out where they are able to make more time for the things they love then that is valuable. Maybe not to society as a whole, although I think it can since a less stressed person is going to work more efficiently and be more pleasant. but I don't live my life to simply do what is best for society as a whole. It is a balance of making life good for you as an individual while also supporting society to help it thrive.

 

 

Edit: I quoted the wrong post of yours. I think it was the previous post I meant to quote where you talked about all the things you do. My quotes often get messed up

Edited May 27, 2016 by hjffkj

[gardenmom5]

My dad is like this. He cannot wrap his brain around the concept of kindness for kindness' sake - there has got to be something in it for him. And his marriage was like that too. 35 years before my mother had the mercy of dying from cancer to get out of it bc she never would have stood up to him and thought this was normal and acceptable. My dad doesn't think people owe him necessarily, but he presumes if someone does something just to be nice it means they are trying to scam him or somehow use him. And that they are stupid to help people. He will point blank say those people are just supposed to starve to death and other such worse comments. It's a miserable way to view life and a miserable person to live with.

 

In fact, most of my FOO is like this. I view them as highly toxic people and give them very little access to my life.

 

I'm the black sheep that wandered away. Thank God.

 

 

I have little contact with my foo too. (my parents are deceased).  I remember one day - don't remember if  it was my brother  or my grandmother (so it was a long time ago), the thought popped into my head "you're  being nice.  what do you want?"  I realized I didn't trust them at all.

 

 

this was after I'd openly joined a church that stressed being a Christlike person.  (it's one my grandmother hated - so it invited disapproval.  I do think if she could have gotten my mother to go along with kicking me out - she would have.), but, I was able to see and get to really know people who were nice because *they wanted to be a nice person*!  people who didn't have ulterior motives, etc.  because I had immersed myself in that, I'd forgotten just how manipulative my foo could be - so, when I had the above experience, it was an enlightening moment

 

I really struggled with anytime my mother did something 'nice' for me, to just accept it.  I think she was sincere with me in her expressions, but the manipulative training was very ingrained.  pavlov's  dog.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read on this forum.

 

That's saying a lot.  :lol:

[gypsymama]

That's so funny because it is your attitude towards work that is exactly the sort of attitude that formed a change in my opinion of myself.

 

 

The attitudes about health care, the attitudes about welfare, about education. They made my fingers go cold, my stomach churn. I was just sick thinking about what you must think of someone like me, poor, working in charity, to help poor people get charity and a free education, as one of many examples. You of all posters, I would have felt would get this. Because you repeatedly state that things must be earned. That those who weren't earners were cheating somehow.

 

I felt positively sick about it, like my whole world--like I'd go to society and ask for help and they would say, 'Well why did you choose that? You are so entitled!' Because I hadn't worked the right job.

 

Right now, I can tell you this: nobody in this country can look at me and say I do not deserve to be here. I have a good job, I volunteer, we are finally homeowners, I own my car, I paid for my own education. I feel finally in life, that I'm getting to the point that if I met someone like you in person I could hold my head high.

 

And now this is Wowza?

 

Why? Why do some not have to work?

 

 

The bolded part - I think this is your key problem. A capable person who isn't working but isn't in the welfare system is NOT the same as someone capable of working and choosing to live off welfare instead of working. That is a BIG difference. I also have been exposed to many thoughts about capable people living on welfare instead of working being freeloaders. It's NOT the same as a SAHW whose husband is supporting her without using welfare to do so. "Poor" isn't the same as welfare. I suppose we could technically be considered "poor" because we DO qualify for welfare based on income. We aren't on any of it though and are fully self supporting even with me being a SAHM and we also live a "middle class" lifestyle in having multiple cars, an rv for vacation, kids in multiple activities, etc. These things are possible because of choices we make. We might technically be "poor" by FPL but we aren't disadvantaged and we aren't freeloaders on welfare. I would first make sure that you are distinguishing between "poor" and what people in my area refer to as "welfare queens."

 

 

 

If you want advice to give your kids tsuga, advise them to marry rich. Seek out wealthy ppl, court them. Marry them with a bulletproof prenup.

 

I mean, that is not invalid advice.

 

Otherwise, what? If that seems trite or unconsvionable advice, then just tell them whatever you feel like telling them. Which is what everyone ends up doing any way.

 

Iow, your kids are going to do whatever they are going to do. The best anyone can do is model their own personal values, be honest abouy where they have struggled, and be there in whatever capacity they are able to muster when their kids struggle.

 

Youre not going to figure out some amazing life altering advice that is garunteed to steer your children through all their options toward a life of ease.

 

Unless you want to go FULL REBA and tell them "just be nice to the gentlemen...and theyll be nice to you."

 

LOL Full Reba! Love it! I agree. If you want to give better insurance against life getting you then advice your kids to marry for money or go full Reba. Make sure they understand the ins and outs of the institution of marriage as a business contract and are prepared with knowledge on how best to interview prospects for the position as well as verifying their references and qualifications. A few suggestions from someone with wealthy family, start with the country clubs. Learn how to play golf and tennis as well as swim. Get them a good education with a focus on vocabulary and grammar (gotta look smart!). Make sure to take care of physical appearance. Get a high quality capsule wardrobe for getting out prospecting in. Save up money to pay a retainer on a bulldog lawyer so you are sure to get an ironclad pre-nup. Hope it works! 

[KungFuPanda]

Charity work has value, but only to the person receiving the service. Yes, you might feel personal satisfaction when you volunteer, but society isn't ever going to magically turn that contribution into material wealth for the volunteer and I don't know any volunteers who expect karma to go halfsies on their mortgage.

 

What if you think of the SAHW as a personal assistant? This man has decided he WANTS a person devoted entirely to maintaining his lifestyle and she's on board with it. You can imagine their budget is drawn up to accommodate her salary, retirement, vacations, etc. It may seem extravagant for a co-worker of yours to have a personal assistant, but he can afford it. You can BELIEVE you're doing all that she is and more, but the fact is this woman can devote her entire day to taking care of herself and her husband. She has eight extra hours every day to do the things you cram into tired evenings and busy weekends.

 

With eight extra hours she can exercise regularly, keep her hair, nails, and skin in near-perfect shape, keep the house REALLY clean, cook all the meals, deal with all the home maintenance, cultivate whatever hobby she wants and even turn it into a small business eventually. Can you imagine never being too tired from your job or kids and what you'd do with that energy? However they're spending their evenings and weekends together must be worth it to THEM and it's going to look very different than a weekend with four kids.

 

This woman, whatever your opinion of her lifestyle, is LESS of a financial drain on this man than she would be if she had a job and produced children. Kids are expensive. They eat up that second income and THEN some. Most of us think the expense of kids is worth the extra job and stress, but this couple chose a different life. It's valid whether or not you believe it is.

[LucyStoner]

Yes, a working wife and husband CAN do this, splitting up the duties. But if the wife was home, they wouldn't have to. Instead of having to fix things and garden and do lawn stuff on the weekend they could be traveling, hiking, attending plays, and relaxing. Doing things that the husband might rather do, because all that stuff got taken care of by his wife while he was at work.

 

If they both work he has to do half the household cleaning, half the errands, half the home maintenance, etc, to be fair. But if she stays home he can do none of it, and his time outside of his job then becomes 100% leisure time, which may very well be worth it for him, to have a less stressful life.

Also, having been that super active double income (each working FT) family who was doing most of that list (or similar) and seemed to be doing it all and knowing other couples like that I can say that for some (not all) life on the inside looking out was far from tranquil. There are families who can do all that and stay healthy and sane.

 

I am not one of them and I am ok with that after years of trying to crack the code and do it without feeling horrible by the time I could crawl into bed. Most of my friends and family had no clue how much we were struggling and many would tell me they wish they did it was well as we seemed to. Finally I started just telling them we didn't have our shit in as good of order as it seemed.

 

A few handy housekeeping tricks, multi tasking and a crockpot do not magically allow a double income family to have 10 extra hours a day. Staying home has an opportunity cost. Working FT also has an opportunity cost. Neither is better or worse and what is the best for each family is different and up to themselves.

Edited May 27, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Carol in Cal.]

OK, help a girl out...what is REBA?

[KungFuPanda]

This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read on this forum.

Yes, but it's weirdness makes it so FUN!

[LucyStoner]

Another tip for tsuga from one non-profit pro to another. Charity starts at home. For a long time I was working and volunteering and giving to others to the degree myself and my family were actually being shortchanged. It's not wrong to care for our families first and then others. I can give more fully when I am not running on empty and when my sons don't get whatever is left of me after all that volunteerism.

[zoobie]

This has got to be one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read on this forum.

 

The men breastfeeding one that devolved still wins for me.

[Guest]

OK, help a girl out...what is REBA?

Only the best ever. Hold onto your butts..

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zplc4Ienkws

[gypsymama]

OK, help a girl out...what is REBA?

 

The country singer Reba McIntyre. It's a reference to a song she had called "Fancy." The girl was told by her mother to "just by nice to the gentlemen Fancy and they'll be nice to you." .... basically prostitution.

[Guest]

The country singer Reba McIntyre. It's a reference to a song she had called "Fancy." The girl was told by her mother to "just by nice to the gentlemen Fancy and they'll be nice to you." .... basically prostitution.

100% literally prostitution.

 

And i aint done baaaaad

[Carol in Cal.]

The years when I was working fulltime and homeschooling fulltime were the worst ones of my adult life.

There was no margin whatsoever.

It is very hard, IMO, to do the double career with kids thing and have anything resembling a good life.

 

I try to help out single moms as much as I can because I figure they are drowning too much to even ask for help.  But I rarely run across them, because they are so flipping nutsy busy that the places where I meet people are not places they go.  

 

Sometimes I wonder why our society has to fluctuate between extremes so much.  Why do women *have to* stay home, or *have to* WOTH?  Why do men disengage so much from their own children?  Why do we value financial rewards so far ahead of other kinds?  Still haven't figured this all out.  Stay tuned.

[Bluegoat]

why are you chaging yourself to conform to the beliefs of a@@holes? Seriously? When I meet people that have beliefs I find repugnant, I don't change myself to fit their beliefs, I either ignore them or tell them to shove it. Do you not realize that a huge percentage of Americans do NOT think the way you are describing? 

 

And - what if they did?  Societies can have messed up priorities.  Sometimes you even have to live your life to some extent in a way that accounts for them, pay for a worthless qualification or degree, serve in an army you don't think is doing quite the right thing, whatever.  But I have no idea why that would mean accepting that set of beliefs.

 

......

 

You know, some of this line of thinking reminds me a little of the prosperity gospel stuff - if you do this (live the right way) then you get that (success.)  And it really has a strong secular version - that may even be where it comes from.  Live your life according to the rules of society and somehow it will come out well, and if it doesn't, you must be doing something wrong.

 

Well, that is a debased theology, and to me obviously incompatible with Christianity which says the opposite - that you can expect to have troubles from doing the right and true thing.  But the secular version is to my mind equally illogical and just evidentially not true.  People who do the right thing by society's standard do not always have success.  Often they get thrown under the bus.  Even the rich and powerful sometimes. 

 

And for sure, just giving in completely to the wrongheaded social view will not make the situation better in the long term for oneself or one's loved ones.

 

Good and evil luck visit all of us, no matter what we do, it's the nature of the beast.  There isn't any peace without accepting that.

 

'What is it, then, poor mortal, that hath cast thee into lamentation and mourning? Some strange, unwonted sight, methinks, have thine eyes seen. Thou deemest Fortune to have changed towards thee; thou mistakest. Such ever were her ways, ever such her nature. Rather in her very mutability hath she preserved towards thee her true constancy. Such was she when she loaded thee with caresses, when she deluded thee with the allurements of a false happiness. Thou hast found out how changeful is the face of the blind goddess. She who still veils herself from others hath fully discovered to thee her whole character. If thou likest her, take her as she is, and do not complain. If thou abhorrest her perfidy, turn from her in disdain, renounce her, for baneful are her delusions.

[zoobie]

And - what if they did?  Societies can have messed up priorities.  Sometimes you even have to live your life to some extent in a way that accounts for them, pay for a worthless qualification or degree, serve in an army you don't think is doing quite the right thing, whatever.  But I have no idea why that would mean accepting that set of beliefs.

 

......

 

You know, some of this line of thinking reminds me a little of the prosperity gospel stuff - if you do this (live the right way) then you get that (success.)  And it really has a strong secular version - that may even be where it comes from.  Live your life according to the rules of society and somehow it will come out well, and if it doesn't, you must be doing something wrong.

 

Well, that is a debased theology, and to me obviously incompatible with Christianity which says the opposite - that you can expect to have troubles from doing the right and true thing.  But the secular version is to my mind equally illogical and just evidentially not true.  People who do the right thing by society's standard do not always have success.  Often they get thrown under the bus.  Even the rich and powerful sometimes. 

 

And for sure, just giving in completely to the wrongheaded social view will not make the situation better in the long term for oneself or one's loved ones.

 

Good and evil luck visit all of us, no matter what we do, it's the nature of the beast.  There isn't any peace without accepting that.

 

'What is it, then, poor mortal, that hath cast thee into lamentation and mourning? Some strange, unwonted sight, methinks, have thine eyes seen. Thou deemest Fortune to have changed towards thee; thou mistakest. Such ever were her ways, ever such her nature. Rather in her very mutability hath she preserved towards thee her true constancy. Such was she when she loaded thee with caresses, when she deluded thee with the allurements of a false happiness. Thou hast found out how changeful is the face of the blind goddess. She who still veils herself from others hath fully discovered to thee her whole character. If thou likest her, take her as she is, and do not complain. If thou abhorrest her perfidy, turn from her in disdain, renounce her, for baneful are her delusions.

 

It made me think of the prosperity gospel stuff too, which I can't jive with most of Tsuga's other posts. 

 

It's so gross. You're wealthy, so you must be a great Christian. You're wealthy, so you must be a great person. Ew.

[Bluegoat]

I was born in seattle.  my parents grew up in seattle. I have family members who live in seattle.  the city itself can be whacky, but I also know people  who are very generous of others.  

 

the ONLY person I've ever  heard spout anything near what tsuga is saying, is my grandmother.  she's from the rural midwest.  she grew up a poor farmers dd, and was very resentful of anyone who didn't have it as hard as her perceptions of herself.   she would never consider doing anything for someone else.  (other than her favorite  immediate family members.)  however,  she had an entitled attitude that people *owed* her.

 

eta: my paternal grandparents were born in seattle/area. (and my grandfather was born in the 19th century) 

 

Your grandmother sounds very much like the main charachter in the book The Stone Angel.  It's an interesting exploration of where that way of thinking takes you.