Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[Bluegoat]

I have an aunt that was a SAHW once the kids were grown. She and my uncle had a great partnership until he died last year. She kept a spotless house (even while raising 5 kids) and my uncle never had to do any cooking, cleaning, childcare, shopping, or errands unless he chose to. She helped the grandparents during the day. She raced around and find EVERYTHING during the day, then in the evening, she relaxed and hung out with my uncle. That woman stayed busy all day every day and was a happy, peaceful soul. They were a great couple.

 

I can see the benefit if you can afford it. Even DINK couples have to push their errands off until evenings or weekends and juggle who stays home for the plumber or cable guy. Some people don't WANT to eat take-out all the time or spend their weekends on laundry and housework. It seems a more fair arrangement then one where the husband and wife both work but the wife takes on most of the household responsibilities.

 

I don't think the problem is how this couple manages their finances. I think it's that she's too dependent on her husband god entertainment. It's possible that her social skills aren't that great and she's comfortable letting him be her only regular adult interaction. The relationship seems a bit precarious to me. On the surface it seems like she's needy, he's giving co-workers too much personal information, and their headed for financial risk. I'm guessing they're both a bit off and are with each other for a reason.

 

There could be all kinds of reasons she is lonely.  I think it is actually one of the downsides of being at home when most people work.  You can really get stuck in a place where you are essentially home alone all day, you don't really have any friends close by, and often it isn't clear how you would actually meet local people.

 

That may well be why she wants to move.

[StaceyinLA]

:iagree:

 

The ex told me this story about his grandparents....... The couple were in their 60's, he was about to retire she had worked prior to their marriage 40 years ago (that would have been the 1920's-1930's I think) but quit at his insistence when they got engaged, so here she is, 60 and she wanted a new refrigerator and since they were fairly well off and frugal she used the $$ she had saved from the grocery budget (or other such budget) over the years to buy one as a "present". He went ballistic (I want to remind you they were reasonably well off, middle class of the 1960's-70's with good savings). He said she was stealing from him. She had raised their 5 boys and done all the household chores, chauffeured kids and cared for his mother in her last few years.... but buying a fridge was stealing? She didn't speak to him for several days (moved to the guest room) then she gave him a bill of how much he owed her for all the years of work minus her share (as if they had been room mates) and said he could deposit the full amount in her new bank account by the next week or she was filing for divorce..... He transferred the money when she had her lawyer send him a letter stating that divorce proceedings would start on the a certain date. I never got to meet her but from what I was told she was a quiet and reserved woman who'd you'd never expect to be that strong willed.

 

All that to say, the food I eat, the roof over my head, the clothes on my back I earned through hard work, they are not a gift and no one thinks I deserve them more then my husband.

 

That's a great story!! I'm thankful that my husband has always seen the value in my being at home, and that both of my married daughters have husbands who are supportive of their being home.

[Arcadia]

I could get a job, but it's not likely to happen. It works for us because my husband enjoys coming home to a clean house, hot meal, clean/folded clothes, and a couple times a week a grandkid or two here for the night.

 

 

You have a non-paying job babysitting your grandkids :)

 

 

Even middle to upper middle can have a hard time. I often do the math on frustrating SAHM days and wind up more depressed.

 

:grouphug:

My kid's flute teacher lamented about not being able to stop work. Her single family home price has gone up to way over a million and she has a kid in high school and another in college. She and her husband may not benefit from California's prop 13 but I didn't ask. She charge us a very affordable rate for lessons. She had an exhausting day teaching 6 hrs straight on Saturday at a music school, drove home, had a takeout meal for lunch just before 3p.m. followed by teaching my kid. Then she had to leave home and drive 40mins to do a paid performance.

[gardenmom5]

Honestly, some Conservatives and others also do judge you a lot on how much you work. I completly understand where the OP is coming from. I don't agree with those people but I very much grew up in an environment that to be called lazy was THE worst insult way worse than a drunkard, a belligerent or just plain dumb.

Honestly, I find your first line naïve - my grandmother was a STAUNCH democrat poor-farmer's-daughter/failed-farmer-machinist's-wife/store-clerk and the worst offender I have ever known about equating the value of a human life to $$$$ earned.  

 

reality is - you will fine people who value people across the spectrum, and ones who don't across the spectrum. as has already been demonstrated by this thread.  

[Murphy101]

Just a quibble. She said "conservative". She didn't name a political party. I wouldn't presume she was referring to republicans. She might have been. But I know plenty of conservative democrats.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

You have a non-paying job babysitting your grandkids :)

 

she's playing with them.

 

or as my niece would say . . . chance to indoctrinate the kiddies on who is their favorite ;p;p . . .  (she's had fun spoiling her nieces and nephews and they all will repeat back "she's" their favorite aunt.)  

 

I can dream  about playing with grandkids.  babysitting sounds too much like drudgery/work.  I want to play and spoil  =D. . . . of course, my one married lives in DFW, and I expect that to be long-term . . . .  so, eventually, I'll have to travel to play with grandkids.

[Murphy101]

This thread reminds me of all the "you are so lucky" and "that was really sweet of your husband" comments I get when my husband does something like take the kids with him to the grocery store, or stays home with them while I go do something like a sit and knit night, or he makes dinner, or changes diaper sorbets up at night with a fussy baby or whatever.

 

"Oh, I'm so glad to see a dad willing to babysit!"

 

No. He is not doing me some grand favor and he sure as hell is not babysitting. He is just being a parent, husband and man.

 

Of course I do more of that than him bc I'm here more than he is at work. So what. We aren't keeping score. Marriage isn't a competition between family members. I can't imagine any healthy outcome to measuring it's value like that.

[gardenmom5]

Just a quibble. She said "conservative". She didn't name a political party. I wouldn't presume she was referring to republicans. She might have been. But I know plenty of conservative democrats.

she's making an implied derisive comment about a specific group.

 

eta: spelling.

Edited May 26, 2016 by gardenmom5

[LucyStoner]

Even middle to upper middle can have a hard time. I often do the math on frustrating SAHM days and wind up more depressed.

I get that. I would say a lot of working class families are in the middle class, or what should be the middle class. My husband and I have been there. High enough income that we could afford a house in a HCOL area and to save. But adding childcare for 2 to housing would have been way out of reach. We were fortunate to have family wanting to help with the kids and the option of working mostly opposite schedules.

 

Now that I would need care and education for two kids on the spectrum, ALL on my pay would go to securing that. It's do it myself or pay someone else to do it and end up exhausted. No thank you.

 

My friend who recently started staying home because work was too little money to cover childcare? His wife is a fully licensed mid career professional engineer. There was a time and place where an engineer could support a family of three while living in a fairly nice place, in a neighborhood with other professionals and a bit bigger than the average house of the day. Here, single wage earner families in their mid 30s-40s where the working spouse is a highly educated professional get into the housing market at all unless they can put down well more than 20% to get the morgage price into an affordable range.

Edited May 26, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Murphy101]

she's making an implied derisive comment about a specific group.

 

eta: spelling.

I don't think it was implied, it was stated flat out that she disagrees with that perspective that she tends to think comes from a specific group - that group being conservative people.

[Murphy101]

On a side note, auto correct apparently thinks "diaper or stays" should have been "diaper sorbets".

 

I'm too lazy to Shane it

 

ETA: oh for crying out loud. Lolol

Edited May 26, 2016 by Murphy101

[frogger]

Honestly, I find your first line naïve - my grandmother was a STAUNCH democrat poor-farmer's-daughter/failed-farmer-machinist's-wife/store-clerk and the worst offender I have ever known about equating the value of a human life to $$$$ earned.

 

reality is - you will fine people who value people across the spectrum, and ones who don't across the spectrum. as has already been demonstrated by this thread.

 

 

I did not in any way mean to imply there was a monopoly on equating the value of a human life to someone's earnings by any political party. By no means, I see that on both sides of the aisle! Most people would call me conservative anyway which is why I said "some" but perhaps people don't know what "some" means. Unless I was referring to my self anyway. 

 

In fact, I don't think I even mentioned amounts of money but rather work. As long as you worked your rear off, never accepted charity, and EARNED what you had you are respected. That was the culture I grew up in and though I agree that I want my children to contribute to society and their families I would add that we should be thankful because not everyone has the same opportunities, the same skills, the same values, or the circumstances so we shouldn't be so quick to judge and have no right to do so. And my Conservative family would probably look down on a SAHW if she didn't garden, cook, can food, homeschool, or whatever they would call "work" most of the day. That was their values. I'm just relating how I can see why the OP sees a double standard even if I don't agree that there is anything wrong with being a SAHW.

Edited May 26, 2016 by frogger

[Spryte]

On a side note, auto correct apparently thinks "diaper or stays" should have been "diaper sorbets".

 

I'm too lazy to Shane it

 

ETA: oh for crying out loud. Lolol

Diaper sorbets made me snort water, so please don't change it! I thought maybe it was your code word for messy diapers. :D

[tm919]

I've been following this thread with interest, and trepidation. My husband has always said he would have preferred that I never worked outside the home even if we never had kids, even though I have a PhD and equal earning capacity. I just don't cope with work that well, but I LIKE work (contradictory, I know) so I do it. Our relationship was better when I didn't work. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by tm919

[Murphy101]

Diaper sorbets made me snort water, so please don't change it! I thought maybe it was your code word for messy diapers. :D

Ha! It might be now!

[eternalsummer]

I think expecting people to work to support themselves (that is to say, opposing a universal dole, or something like that - welfare without back-to-work programs, etc.) is not essentially related to caring whether or not a wife stays at home.

 

I think this is because people tend to see the relationship between husband and wife as a largely private thing, and the arrangements they make as valid (as long as there is no abuse).    Husband and wife are also often seen as a unit (and are taxed as such, right?) - so as long as the husband is making money to support the family, or the wife is making money to support the family, or some other family member is doing so - we mostly butt out.

 

Welfare, or telling the poor they must work to be fed and housed, is a different consideration.  You could very easily say that how a family unit works out who works outside the home and who doesn't is their own business, but expecting unrelated people to pay taxes to fund someone's lack of work is an entirely different animal.

Edited May 26, 2016 by ananemone

[gardenmom5]

I did not in any way mean to imply there was a monopoly on equating the value of a human life to someone's earnings by any political party. 

 

you said it.  are you saying you didn't mean what you said?  then why did you say it the way you said it? 

[frogger]

Honestly, some Conservatives and others also do judge you a lot on how much you work. I completely understand where the OP is coming from. I don't agree with those people but I very much grew up in an environment that to be called lazy was THE worst insult way worse than a drunkard, a belligerent or just plain dumb. Most of these people worked their way up from nothing and the highest praise is to be called a hard worker after putting in a 12-14 hour day. 

 

 

 Notice the bold word "some" which I quoted above in its original place. I only changed it to bold.  I mentioned conservatives because I was specifically talking about a LOT of my family. They would even call a SAHW that was not on the dole lazy if she had her husband take care of the house or wasn't otherwise busy about her work and it would be considered an insult.  

 

I also mentioned "others". That  just might mean people who were not conservatives. I was talking about a culture that I grew up in and it sounded similar to the OP's. That is why I mentioned it. Your conservative circles may not have the same people in them but these people sound like they have similar values to the OP's.  

 

 

Edited due to moving verbs. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by frogger

[EmseB]

I think expecting people to work to support themselves (that is to say, opposing a universal dole, or something like that - welfare without back-to-work programs, etc.) is not essentially related to caring whether or not a wife stays at home.

 

I think this is because people tend to see the relationship between husband and wife as a largely private thing, and the arrangements they make as valid (as long as there is no abuse). Husband and wife are also often seen as a unit (and are taxed as such, right?) - so as long as the husband is making money to support the family, or the wife is making money to support the family, or some other family member is doing so - we mostly butt out.

 

Welfare, or telling the poor they must work to be fed and housed, is a different consideration. You could very easily say that how a family unit works out who works outside the home and who doesn't is their own business, but expecting unrelated people to pay taxes to fund someone's lack of work is an entirely different animal.

Yes. Or, to put it a different way, it would be extremely weird for an employer to pay someone for work not done. But the family unit isn't a employer/employee relationship. It isn't a citizen/state relationship. It's just not the same thing and the comparison made is apples to oranges.

[frogger]

Oh and in this particular sub-culture, parents certainly didn't pay for your college. You earned your way in the world. Period. I moved out at 17 and would have never been willing to ask for help. So we aren't just talking government versus family relationships. I don't know how common this sub culture is but I can see how growing up that way would give you a different idea on how a family works compared to other cultures or sub cultures.

[Spryte]

Oh and in this particular sub-culture, parents certainly didn't pay for your college. You earned your way in the world. Period. I moved out at 17 and would have never been willing to ask for help. So we aren't just talking government versus family relationships. I don't know how common this sub culture is but I can see how growing up that way would give you a different idea on how a family works compared to other cultures or sub cultures.

I'm familiar with this subculture. (And I moved out at 17, as well, and nope, parents did not plan to help with college because, by golly, they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and did it. I had to do the same, the story went, and it would be character building.)

 

I haven't internalized the messages in a way that makes me apply them to others, but can see how that could happen. I do, however, sometimes feel the weight of that subculture's judgment, in my mind. I have health issues, and the take on those is that you power through, it's all in your head.

[elegantlion]

My parents were low to mid middle class and my mom didn't work until I was in high school (we were in public school). Even then it was only part time. She made her time being a house wife in every sense of the term and enjoyed it. She mowed the yard, she cleaned the gutters (even at 79 she is cleaning the gutters and mowing 5 acres). My dad would have had to survive on toast if she had died first. They were, as others have pointed out, a unit. My dad worked for money, she worked at home. 

 

This is a different era and I think it's harder to just stay home without kids, but just because someone doesn't get a weekly pay check doesn't mean they aren't adding value to a relationship or to this world. Honestly, I'd be happy to not have to get a job after school. I will because my financial trust in depending solely upon another person is burnt (thanks ex :glare: ) and will probably never rebuilt. 

 

 

 

 

[HRAAB]

This thread reminds me of all the "you are so lucky" and "that was really sweet of your husband" comments I get when my husband does something like take the kids with him to the grocery store, or stays home with them while I go do something like a sit and knit night, or he makes dinner, or changes diaper sorbets up at night with a fussy baby or whatever.

 

"Oh, I'm so glad to see a dad willing to babysit!"

 

No. He is not doing me some grand favor and he sure as hell is not babysitting. He is just being a parent, husband and man.

 

Of course I do more of that than him bc I'm here more than he is at work. So what. We aren't keeping score. Marriage isn't a competition between family members. I can't imagine any healthy outcome to measuring it's value like that.

 

I have a sister-in-law that can frequently be heard telling her dh it's his turn to 'babysit' the children so she can have her night off.  They both work and have two children.  I can hear her saying, "I babysat the kids so you could golf. Now it's your turn to babysit so I can go shopping."

 

I've never heard anyone else ever refer to babysitting their own children.

[katilac]

In thinking about this a little bit, thinking about the people I know who "stay at home" and so on, I realize how much they do to hold the world together.  They visit the lonely, they take people to their colonoscopy appointments, they write letters of encouragement, they help in emergencies.  You can always reach them.  They are available.  They answer the phone when you call.  They have time to listen, to wait.  They check in.  They help bewildered new moms, new brides.  They use their skills in pro-bono ways--lawyering for the poor, helping new companies with business expertise...

 

Some of them stay very low profile and pray and find their way through this life.  

Some make their homes and their souls a place of peace and beauty.  And they share this with the rest of us.  

 

As a society, we tend to honor and respect people for what they DO.  But we are not human doings.  We are human beings.  It's about what we ARE, and that's not going to look the same for everyone.  

 

Great post. It hit me right in the feels. 

[happi duck]

On a side note, auto correct apparently thinks "diaper or stays" should have been "diaper sorbets".

 

I'm too lazy to Shane it

 

ETA: oh for crying out loud. Lolol

This made me laugh so hard! :)

[SereneHome]

Didn't read the thread yet, just OP, so if you guys moved on - sorry

 

I know of two instances where a woman with no children didn't /doesn't work

 

One is my MIL.  She didn't want to work, my FIL didn't want her to work.  So, for the first 6 yrs of their marriage, before kids came along, she didn't work.  I have NO CLUE what she was doing.  She has no hobbies or interests.  Then, after her kids grew up - again - what was she doing all day long??

 

Another is a woman on another forum I am on.  She was/is an attorney.  When she met her husband  he paid of her huge student loans and then she stopped working.  He is a pilot in the army.  She volunteers TONS of hours in the cat shelter.  So, at least she is doing something.

 

Both of those instances are super foreign to me.  I couldn't do it!!!  Do I judge them?  Well, I do judge my MIL bc they always had money issues and some of it fell and still falls on my husband and I.  If that wasn't the case, I would care less.  The lawyer-turned-cat rescuer?  Well.......if her husband is OK with that - than that's all that matters.

 

 

ETA:  Wait!!  There is also my SIL - she stopped working 12 yrs ago bc she said she is too sickly.  We don't know what she is sickly with, but her and  my MIL make a good pair  - not working together.  And yes, SIL and her husband also have huge money problems.  So, yes, I judge her as well

Edited May 26, 2016 by SereneHome

[LucyStoner]

Can you imagine cleaning and having it stay that way?!?!

Don't tease us! :P. Luxurious thoughts like that could really raise our hopes unreasonably high. ;)

Edited May 26, 2016 by LucyStoner

[OneStepAtATime]

Can you imagine cleaning and having it stay that way?!?!

Heaven.  (But that would mean DH could never walk in the house. LOL)

[Tsuga]

I'm going to reply in two parts.

 

First of all, I want to reply to the main question, why the heck do I care?

 

The answer is the same as for many questions I ask here. When I was young I was taught one set of values. Work hard, earn rewards. If you study hard you can have a decent job, a decent life, a little house, a little car, not new but something, no debt. Well things went quite differently even though I followed all the advice. Since I've been about 33, so for the past five years, I've been in a kind of crisis. What are the rules? What am I supposed to do? What is a good person after all?

 

Nothing I was taught as a child works. I might still hold on to those values in theory, but they don't work. They don't work for making my kids a good life, caring for myself, securing a retirement. Nothing works.

 

I am looking for the real rules of the game. I am not stupid and I'm not lazy so my thought is if I only understood the rules of the game, I would be able to secure a decent retirement and inheritance for my kids.

 

Whenever I hit a new piece of information, a new fact, a new realization that "oh my gosh, some people get this or that" then I spend time trying to figure it out.

 

So, that's why I'm asking.

 

Here I was busting my butt to make myself valuable and I still have never been valued. How come she is so valued? What did I do wrong, why am I not that valuable that I have to work?

 

 

I'm an atheist, and ideally I think women shouldn't have to work outside the home. Kids or no kids. I mean, if a woman wants to work, that's fine. If the couple feels that it is essential that she also work, to either maintain their standard of living or stay out of poverty, that's fine too. But without going into a long thesis on why, I just believe that's it's equally fine for women to stay home and they don't need an excuse to do so.

 

Then again, I also strongly feel that a wife should never call her husband's place of work and bug him about what time he comes home (and if she did, the husband shouldn't tell anyone about it).

 

Do you think men shouldn't have to work? What if a man and a woman fall in love and after a baby they both decide they don't want to work. Then who gets to not work and why?

 

So just out of curiosity, do those of us who only have one child get lumped in with the SAHWs in your mind? I'm not asking that in a snarky way, I'm just wondering why the number of kids would really matter. I mean, it's not like with two kids I'd need a sitter but with one I can just leave her home for eight hours while I run off to work. :p

 

With my disabilities I can't work anyway, so you won't hurt my feelings regardless of your answer. I would actually love to have a part time job and get out of the house a bit more, but c'est la vie.

 

I think caring for a child, one child or many children, as long as they are home, is a full time job. It requires a lot of work and you can create a lot of work.

 

Whereas bills... I mean, everyone pays bills. To me that is like taking credit for going to the bathroom. It is not that difficult most of the time and everyone does it.

 

I don't understand this question. Why would a husband not give his wife food, lodging and insurance? 

 

Why would he? That's a million dollar gift right there. If I knew why he would do that, maybe I can get that for myself.

 

That's one set of values.  There are others.  I think the idea that poverty is only or even mainly a matter of poor choices is hogwash. 

 

I believe in a public safety net.  I am a product of a reasonably decent public safety net.  It is a moral failing in my book to attack the poor.  I think you agree with that so why are you hung up on a belief system that which you don't seem to actually be arguing to support? 

 

Families decide what they can and want to do from a set of usually restricted or limited choices.  And no one needs to mind what the heck works for someone else's family that is safe and legal.  This is an inherently more conservative idea than I generally have but we have to trust people to act in their own self interests and make their own best choices.  Doesn't sound conservative?  Start reading the most conservative economists past and present.  

 

Economists generally don't hold the value that people are totally worthless if they don't work.

 

However, you don't have to go much further than the comments in the Economist, the New York Times, and the Atlantic to see that huge swaths of people believe that poor people who don't work are worthless.

 

It doesn't matter if I disagree.

 

What matters is that I need to know how the world works and what is expected of me and of my kids, so that we can take care of ourselves.

 

I guess this seems naive but I always thought having people in the family not working was like an aristocratic thing. SAHMing is a paradoxical hard-job luxury. But just staying at home? Never occurred to me as a possibility.

 

 

It's fine to disagree with all those points from an ideological point of view. But let's not pretend that it's as simplistic as essentially saying, "Liberals love and care for the poor, and conservatives think the poor are lazy scum who don't deserve a thing. So why is it okay for housewives to be lazy, huh?"

 

 

Okay, but I didn't say that. Those were the messages I internalized as a child having heard them repeatedly screamed on the TV news. What I am trying to explain is how I am working through dissonance, this feeling of, "I was doing my best to do as I was told, and I didn't realize this was an option. How the heck is this an option???"

 

I know quite a few people like this.  They are modern, educated, capable people.  

 

And I adore their reasons for what they do.

 

What *satisfies* one spouse (the job holder) earns enough money so that...

what *satisfies* the other spouse (the non-paid-job holder) ...

 

works.

 

And what is really interesting is that the satisfaction the OTHER finds fulfills the needs of both. 

 

So, for examply, Spouse1 works for pay and is tremendously satisfied by it...but wishes s/he could contribute more to the world and

Spouse 2 works for no-pay and is tremendously satisfied by it...but wishes s/he could contribute more to the family finances.  

 

Instead of feeling sad, they rejoice that they are doing what they both want...together. 

 

This makes sense to me in the context of a household in which either one person is disabled or they have children, so the person not working outside the home is really maximizing their effort for the family.

 

It does not make sense in the context of a fully functional adult whose main job is to do chores that take me all of 10 minutes every night. I have great credit, the house works, and I have time for hobbies. I am not really sure how a SAHW is really working that much... particularly as a good deal of our bills are paid auto deposit out of our paychecks so the earning spouse would be taking care of those

[Tsuga]

Three parts because there are limits to multi-quote, it turns out.

 

Lucy Stoner:

 

I want to repeat what Gardenmom said. "I also think it's disrespectful for a woman to think she has to provide s3x in exchange for her dh supporting her. it would make me feel like nothing but a piece of meat with that attitude."
...
I am a wife. I am a mother. I am a midnight...board poster.

 

Well I do apologize for the offensive joke, but I was not trying to suggest that. Clearly he is not paying her to have sex.

 

I'm chatting with DH, he's at work, and he says "who wouldn't want to stay home?" (if they can afford it).  Also, "there's plenty of things to do around the house even without kids"....  If you don't NEED the money?  Better question why shouldn't she stay home, if he's good with it, she wants too, they can afford it... why not?

 

 

Why... because then he can just leave and she has nothing. If it's a gift he can stop giving at any moment and she's screwed. That's why. It's an incredibly high-risk proposition for the woman.

 

But more importantly, I was more thinking from the man's point of view. Say you can have a wife. One of them cooks, cleans, pays bills, and works full time or part time. She pays for the vacations, she enables you to breathe at work. Or you can have another wife which does exactly the same thing but no money.

 

 

 

Would you count it as "work" if the person sat at home and knitted hats for NICU babies?

 

A question - why do you distinguish women who are empty nesters from women who haven't had kids yet?  Why does one owe an economic contribution more than the other?  Why doesn't this apply to men too?

 

First question: No, volunteering is not work. If volunteering was work then I'd be living in a mansion. Volunteering is something you should enjoy. If you aren't having fun you should not volunteer. I used to believe differently but then I learned that people looked at my sacrifice in the most humiliating to me way possible: They thought I did it because I couldn't earn money. They thought that I was just unable to do anything to care for myself, so I had to volunteer. So when I needed help, when I needed an income, they mocked me. "Well you knew the choices you were making."

 

I mean I guess whenever we get socialism or whatever, which would be great, it gets to be work. But no, charity is not work in our society. If it were work, then people would reward it. But they don't. It has no value other than to the giver and the receiver, and the receiver has no money to pay.

 

As for the second question: I guess I think everyone gets a retirement. At least in this generation. In the next generation, we can already see it: there are no retirements, there is just disability or work. Waiting around to work (however much you want a baby) is not the same as resting after 25 years of work.

 

I agree.

 

I am approaching the empty nest years.  It may be that I won't be able to be a SAHW once the kids are up and out, but my husband and I both hope to and that is what we'd planned when we got married and had kids. 

 

 

My husband is not providing for me as a gift.   What an odd idea.  My working-class father would have snorted in derision at the notion that he was providing my mother, who never worked outside the home, for pay, after they were married, a gift.  She worked hard every day of her life, and he knew it, and he thanked her for it.
 

 

Mothers work very hard and I don't view that arrangement as a gift arrangement, nor was I the one who suggested that a husband's provision was a gift. That was how it was explained to me.

 

I can think of a few reasons for her not working/wanting to move...

Perhaps they are going through infertility and she sees a lot of happy families in the current neighborhood and just can't bear it any longer...

Mental illness or physical illness...I know when I was dealing with IBS, I would want to stay near my bathroom for hours after I ate...

Perhaps they are trying to adopt...fielding calls from social workers and adoption agencies can be a full time job...

Perhaps she has some sort of criminal record, even a tragic accident, that will follow her every time she applies for a job due to background check...

Could there be an ill relative she helps with?

Maybe she's a super-secret super spy waiting for her next assignment...

Perhaps that was something they simply agreed upon when they got married...

Maybe she's a work-from-home call girl-type

Agoraphobia?

She could have a compromised immune system...

She's on the run from the authorities...

She's a victim of human trafficking...


So those are just a few ideas that popped into my head. Probably not a single one of them is the true reason. sometimes brainstorming helps me realize that I don't know and can't know what is going on in a person's life, and unless a person could be in jeopardy, it really is none of my business. People are odd and quirky. I know I am!

 

I appreciate this list because you have really summed up many of the reasons listed here:

 

• TTC and worried about starting a job and then getting pregnant.
• Disabled or ill (i.e. working to the best of her ability which is to say very little or not at all)
• Working at a job that she is somehow embarrassed/ashamed/hesitant to mention, for any number of reasons, such as it being illicit, or being likely to fail, or somesuch;
• Unable to work for non-health-related reasons.

TTC kind of confuses me because I thought it would be terrible luck to quit my job until I was 6 months in, but I can see how if you had to quit for bedrest once and you want it to happen, you'd get stuck in that cycle. TTC, bedrest, not pregnant :( , TTC, bedrest, and so on.

 

However, I do want to point out that the entire list is either "can't work" or "is actually working but you don't know it". None of those things are along the lines of "Not working, could work, chooses not to." And that is more the scenario I'm wondering about. I realize that a great many men and women aren't working for any number of reasons beyond their control. Many of them would like to work.

 

, I'm pretty sure you would see that a SAHM "earns" her keep. Although really, that entire idea is repugnant to me. I don't have to earn idly squat with my husband. He wants me to be happy, because he loves me, and vice versa. ...there is way more to life than money. Way more. 

 

I will clarify once again that I'm not talking about SAHMs. There is enough work in there for a million years worth of salaries. I am talking about SAHWs. People who have no children and who do not work, some of whom presumably could work. Though, it could be that all of them actually are disabled and they just pass it off as a luxury lifestyle.

 

Do you think he works because he loves that, or that he works because it is the best job he can have AND support a family?

 

Finally... there is nothing more to life than money when everything can be taken from you in a matter of months, and you have children to feed. Then money is everything. Everyone says that money isn't everything but then when it comes time to give, who's giving?

 

?

 

Many people who marry believe that "you" becomes a corporate "you".  He's working, therefore she's working, so to speak.  Many people would not see a spouse providing all of the material support for another spouse as a gift, but rather as providing "our" material support. 

 

Yeah, but what a sweet deal. What I'm wondering is how does that work. My partner is working, so I'm working. He got a promotion so I got a promotion. How does my identity as a whole person, an adult human, fit into that? Did he also sit on the couch picking out paint colors all day? Did he also go to the gym because I went to the gym?

 

It doesn't really make sense to me.

 

1. Says who? 

 

2. It's ok to get free stuff, as long as you aren't STEALING it from someone else.  The wife isn't stealing anything.  He is giving to her, freely. 

 

Viewing relationships an account to be balanced is not healthy, IMO. 

 

So who IS stealing? I never stole. I was a child, I got benefits because my dad didn't give us anything. Was I stealing from a child whose father made a lot of money? I sure felt like it.

 

And if it's not balanced, what happens when one person leaves?

 

Why are some women worthy of a million dollars of support over their lives and others worthless? You see them, both maintain their figures, both presumably try to please their men in bed, both cook... but one of them is worth a lifetime of free money and the other is worth nothing. She "has" to work. Her man left.

 

I have a friend who stays home in similar circumstances. I was equally baffled by it. I mentioned my confusion to my husband and to a few guys. They all mentioned that they kind of (secretly, deep down) would like to have their wives stay home even without children because it meant that she would be dependent on them, and it made them feel... in control? more powerful? like a true provider? more important? Something along those lines.

 

I know that's what my ex-husband thought but I refused to quit my job because I thought that was kind of crazy. Maybe he would have loved me if I had quit, though. Maybe he would not have left if I would have needed him more. Considering that he cleaned out our bank account and told me he was leaving, I shudder to think what would have happened if he just wanted control but it wouldn't have "tamed" him so to speak.

 

 

I'm simply a little stunned about some of the things the husband is sharing with his coworkers. It's inappropriate and I don't understand why a person would be inclined to portray their spouse in such a light to his coworkers.

 

I don't think any of this strikes him as reflecting badly on her at all. That's what is so shocking. "She doesn't know if she wants to work." "She can't stand this area." "Oh, man, was that your wife? Mine just called me. She hates it when I stay past five."

 

It's not very professional for one, and it's no ones business what his wife is calling and saying to him. I don't care whether she stays home or not- but her spouse needs to learn some boundaries about what is appropriate fodder for coworkers and what is not. He will save himself some grief in the long run if he does.

 

There is a ton of oversharing in this office. He is not at ALL the only one, lol.

I always hated working with guys who used to complain about their wives, and the ones who tried to do it in the martyr-ish way where they weren't really complaining (but they were) were the worst. They also seemed to be the guys setting up for affairs at work. Not saying that's what's necessarily happening here- but seriously. If he's talking about his wife that much at work he needs to find something else to talk about.

ETA- I shouldn't say just guys because women are just as guilty. Either way, people need to have some boundaries and put the intimacy of the marriage ahead of making small talk with coworkers.

 

You are probably right about that one! He doesn't seem the affair-y type nor do we have secretaries so hard to imagine the "girl" he'd be going for, LOL. It's all married / coupled professionals. Still, you are right. But it's a pretty young office, quite different from previous offices I've worked in. I think people are still working it out. I like it. I know it sounds like I am totally hating on this guy's wife but really, I don't feel that way. I am just truly shocked about this being a "thing" in this day and age when women have nearly equal opportunities to men... or at least there are jobs to be had.

 

[Tsuga]

I don't think it was implied, it was stated flat out that she disagrees with that perspective that she tends to think comes from a specific group - that group being conservative people.

 

I will clarify that while I disagree with people who believe that the value of a human being is based on how much they earn, because I think humans are more valuable than that, I have to accept that that is the world in which I live and that is the world in which my kids must survive.

 

Whether or not I disagree with it is beside the point. Whether that attitude hurt my feelings when I was a child is beside the point.

 

The point is that that is the attitude that I have to deal with on a daily basis.

 

I don't get to say "Well I'm worth more than that!" "Well you should respect me!" I don't get to decide who is valued and who is not valued.

 

What I do get to do is figure that out so that I can make sure that me and my family do what it takes to be valued in the highest way possible. And it doesn't matter what is required, we will just have to do it, because we aren't inheritors of great riches to be able to care for our babies independently of money, without worrying about it.

[heartlikealion]

She probably does the crap that I should be doing. You know, like having a hot meal on the table when dh walks in the door. A clean house. Laundry not only clean but folded and put away. Or I dunno, maybe she orders take out lol. I really probably don't know much more than you do, though. I doubt he shares everything.

 

Maybe he actually has a big ego and thinks that he can be the sole provider and the idea of her working = he didn't provide enough. Really, do we know how he feels? All we know is his wife wants to move and it's going to be inconvenient for travel reasons?

 

Is it possible she used to earn a living and has savings from it? Or needed a break from working for some unknown reason?

 

I kind of feel like she's getting a bad rep based on lack of the full story.

[eternalsummer]

 

 

So who IS stealing? I never stole. I was a child, I got benefits because my dad didn't give us anything. Was I stealing from a child whose father made a lot of money? I sure felt like it.

 

 

 

You were not stealing; you were receiving money from another kids' father (tiny bits of money from lots of other kids' fathers) because the fathers are part of the same society as you and that society had agreed, by way of a legal standard, to require each other to provide something for the kids' whose fathers can't or won't do it themselves.

 

The other kid had no say in the matter, nor did you, because neither of you can vote.

 

 

The idea more generally that if you work hard you can get a certain standard of living, or something, is insane.  It might have been true in the community you grew up in at the time you grew up, but there are communities where it is definitely not true (in fact, for the standard of living you seem to expect, it is not true for the majority of the world by a long shot), and there are also times in which it is easier or harder even in a wealthy society like ours.

[Liz CA]

So I don't really get the "having to nag" someone to work less. Why would anyone work more than they needed to?

 

There are people who are workaholics who derive the only sense of value from their work in an unhealthy way unrelated to income...and then there are those of us who really like our work and have to consciously disconnect and shift gears.

[heartlikealion]

Wanted to add I consider my spouse a workaholic and even if I didn't have young children at home, I would probably wonder why he's running late/maybe call to check in. Maybe TMI but I'm gonna throw this out there. I've gotten jealous before about him spending too much time with female coworkers. You basically just said that he works with a bunch of women... so, think about that.

[Liz CA]

I used to believe differently but then I learned that people looked at my sacrifice in the most humiliating to me way possible: They thought I did it because I couldn't earn money. They thought that I was just unable to do anything to care for myself, so I had to volunteer. So when I needed help, when I needed an income, they mocked me. "Well you knew the choices you were making."

 

This is an interesting statement and may explain why you are so concerned about the non-working wife.

[Liz CA]

I've been following this thread with interest, and trepidation. My husband has always said he would have preferred that I never worked outside the home even if we never had kids, even though I have a PhD and equal earning capacity. I just don't cope with work that well, but I LIKE work (contradictory, I know) so I do it. Our relationship was better when I didn't work. 

 

I get this. There are days my dh wishes I was not working, however, he knows I like what I am doing and would want to do it in some form until I fall over. Some days, I bring too much home with me, some days are unpredictable because my clientele is unpredictable but he is dealing well with it. We are learning to adjust and I am learning to disconnect when I go home.

[Ausmumof3]

I will clarify that while I disagree with people who believe that the value of a human being is based on how much they earn, because I think humans are more valuable than that, I have to accept that that is the world in which I live and that is the world in which my kids must survive.

 

Whether or not I disagree with it is beside the point. Whether that attitude hurt my feelings when I was a child is beside the point.

 

The point is that that is the attitude that I have to deal with on a daily basis.

 

I don't get to say "Well I'm worth more than that!" "Well you should respect me!" I don't get to decide who is valued and who is not valued.

 

What I do get to do is figure that out so that I can make sure that me and my family do what it takes to be valued in the highest way possible. And it doesn't matter what is required, we will just have to do it, because we aren't inheritors of great riches to be able to care for our babies independently of money, without worrying about it.

Her situation doesn't really have any bearing on yours. She gets to stay home because that's the way her lot in life landed and you don't cause that's what you drew. Sometimes life sucks. It doesn't mean either of you are doing right or wrong. There's no rule that means success in life. There are certain rules we may choose to play by because they define us as a person. There are certain things that can help overall but "time and chance happens to all".

 

Fwiw I grew up with almost the opposite rhetoric. Good mums and good wives stay home and care for their families. Some of the friends are equally looking at those with successful careers and supportive husbands going "why does she get to do that and I'm cooking and cleaning toilets". Some of them are studying to change it. Some have always had careers.

 

The risk of divorce is definitely a trade off. In my mums generation the risk of divorce was much lower but there was probably the risk of a quietly unhappy marriage.

[heartlikealion]

My responses are in blue, though I know these comments weren't addressed to me.

 

Three parts because there are limits to multi-quote, it turns out.

 

Lucy Stoner:

 

 

Well I do apologize for the offensive joke, but I was not trying to suggest that. Clearly he is not paying her to have sex.

 

 

 

Why... because then he can just leave and she has nothing. If it's a gift he can stop giving at any moment and she's screwed. That's why. It's an incredibly high-risk proposition for the woman.

 

Isn't it high risk to be a SAHM, too? What if the man just leaves? You might get child support but are you really better off than the SAHW?

 

But more importantly, I was more thinking from the man's point of view. Say you can have a wife. One of them cooks, cleans, pays bills, and works full time or part time. She pays for the vacations, she enables you to breathe at work. Or you can have another wife which does exactly the same thing but no money.

 

Hahaha are we assuming that all working wives are like this? Or is this just to say guys should keep looking when they meet a woman that doesn't want to work/doesn't mind staying home because surely someone like the above exists and would make a better mate? That's totally debatable.

 

First question: No, volunteering is not work. If volunteering was work then I'd be living in a mansion. Volunteering is something you should enjoy. If you aren't having fun you should not volunteer. I used to believe differently but then I learned that people looked at my sacrifice in the most humiliating to me way possible: They thought I did it because I couldn't earn money. They thought that I was just unable to do anything to care for myself, so I had to volunteer. So when I needed help, when I needed an income, they mocked me. "Well you knew the choices you were making."

 

That is a shame. But that is illogical to me and sounds like their problem. One I wouldn't have hesitated to correct if I had worked side by side with them. They should be humiliated.

 

I mean I guess whenever we get socialism or whatever, which would be great, it gets to be work. But no, charity is not work in our society. If it were work, then people would reward it. But they don't. It has no value other than to the giver and the receiver, and the receiver has no money to pay.

 

I disagree. I don't have to receive anything to appreciate other people's work. You could stand two firefighters in front of me. One paid. One unpaid (volunteer). I'm not going to ask them their income and then determine if they are valuable to society based on their answer. Or based on whether or not I've ever had to call a fight fighter. Come on.

 

As for the second question: I guess I think everyone gets a retirement. At least in this generation. In the next generation, we can already see it: there are no retirements, there is just disability or work. Waiting around to work (however much you want a baby) is not the same as resting after 25 years of work.

 

 

Mothers work very hard and I don't view that arrangement as a gift arrangement, nor was I the one who suggested that a husband's provision was a gift. That was how it was explained to me.

 

Not all moms are alike. Not all wives are alike. Let's not act like all moms work hard and all wives don't.

 

I appreciate this list because you have really summed up many of the reasons listed here:

 

• TTC and worried about starting a job and then getting pregnant.
• Disabled or ill (i.e. working to the best of her ability which is to say very little or not at all)
• Working at a job that she is somehow embarrassed/ashamed/hesitant to mention, for any number of reasons, such as it being illicit, or being likely to fail, or somesuch;
• Unable to work for non-health-related reasons.

TTC kind of confuses me because I thought it would be terrible luck to quit my job until I was 6 months in, but I can see how if you had to quit for bedrest once and you want it to happen, you'd get stuck in that cycle. TTC, bedrest, not pregnant :( , TTC, bedrest, and so on.

 

However, I do want to point out that the entire list is either "can't work" or "is actually working but you don't know it". None of those things are along the lines of "Not working, could work, chooses not to." And that is more the scenario I'm wondering about. I realize that a great many men and women aren't working for any number of reasons beyond their control. Many of them would like to work.

 

 

I will clarify once again that I'm not talking about SAHMs. There is enough work in there for a million years worth of salaries. I am talking about SAHWs. People who have no children and who do not work, some of whom presumably could work. Though, it could be that all of them actually are disabled and they just pass it off as a luxury lifestyle.

 

Why do you insist on creating this huge divide here? Maybe some SAHWs do as much if not more than some SAHMs? I suck at running a home. I'm sure there are some SAHWs that do a way better job than me. Kid in tow or not, things like laundry, dishes, errands, and meals need addressed.

 

Do you think he works because he loves that, or that he works because it is the best job he can have AND support a family?

 

Finally... there is nothing more to life than money when everything can be taken from you in a matter of months, and you have children to feed. Then money is everything. Everyone says that money isn't everything but then when it comes time to give, who's giving?

 

?

 

 

Yeah, but what a sweet deal. What I'm wondering is how does that work. My partner is working, so I'm working. He got a promotion so I got a promotion. How does my identity as a whole person, an adult human, fit into that? Did he also sit on the couch picking out paint colors all day? Did he also go to the gym because I went to the gym?

 

It doesn't really make sense to me.

 

I am under the impression you wouldn't ever accept that role even if it sounds sweet from the outside. I feel like you'd label yourself lazy and no amount of volunteering would fix your mindset because volunteering has been tainted for you. Or maybe I'm way off.

 

Because your spouse is your team mate? If you work on a group project, we all know that maybe so and so did more work than so and so, but at the end of the day if everyone is happy with the grade and division of labor, does it matter?

 

So who IS stealing? I never stole. I was a child, I got benefits because my dad didn't give us anything. Was I stealing from a child whose father made a lot of money? I sure felt like it.

 

And if it's not balanced, what happens when one person leaves?

 

Some people would rather cross that bridge when they get there than worry about a bridge they may never see?

 

Why are some women worthy of a million dollars of support over their lives and others worthless? You see them, both maintain their figures, both presumably try to please their men in bed, both cook... but one of them is worth a lifetime of free money and the other is worth nothing. She "has" to work. Her man left.

 

 

I know that's what my ex-husband thought but I refused to quit my job because I thought that was kind of crazy. Maybe he would have loved me if I had quit, though. Maybe he would not have left if I would have needed him more. Considering that he cleaned out our bank account and told me he was leaving, I shudder to think what would have happened if he just wanted control but it wouldn't have "tamed" him so to speak.

 

You don't have to answer, but I was wondering if this happened before or after you had kids? It seems like you show a lot of concern for a stranded SAHW but not necessarily the SAHM? I mean, if you were worried then I don't know why you wouldn't flinch at moms staying at home.

 

[eternalsummer]

 

 

Why are some women worthy of a million dollars of support over their lives and others worthless? You see them, both maintain their figures, both presumably try to please their men in bed, both cook... but one of them is worth a lifetime of free money and the other is worth nothing. She "has" to work. Her man left.

 

 

 

Well, if you want a really honest answer, instead of a PC answer - the woman who has a husband who will support her staying at home has chosen (in this regard) a better husband than the woman who chose a husband who left.

 

It sounds harsh, and I don't mean it as a suggestion that one woman is better than another (which I guess is what you are suggesting) - but one woman, for one reason or another, made a better choice in this regard.

 

Now, it is possible that the man who has the millions of support $ also has terrible genetic material while the abandoner has great genetic material, so the woman's actual evolutionary interest is at best a wash.  Ideally you find someone with good genetics who can also support the offspring you produce together :)

 

 

 

Are you really just asking why things aren't fair?  Why everyone doesn't have exactly the same amount of comfort in life and work the same amount and etc.?  If that is your question, trust me, you are doing waaaaay better than the average person on the planet right now in terms of life comfort :)  

[SKL]

Well I'm not sure I have anything to add, just that the tone and content of the OP's follow-up posts just continues to surprise me.  It doesn't seem consistent with any group ideology I've encountered, from the most conservative to the most liberal.  Nor have I ever met any individual who thinks that way.

[G5052]

I wouldn't concern myself with that at all. I've always worked and homeschooled, and it gets a little crazy. But that's our choice. I get cranky when people put that choice down too. As if I can't be a decent mother and wife and work too. We've had horrific medical bills for over a decade, and it was largely a financial choice. I enjoy my work and am very blessed that it is 100% from home these days.

 

I would like to point out though that in some more traditional circles it is considered the norm for a woman not to work after marriage, period. For many generations in the U.S., that was the norm. Whether you had children or not, you stayed home and managed that and/or did volunteer work.

[marbel]

Well, if you want a really honest answer, instead of a PC answer - the woman who has a husband who will support her staying at home has chosen (in this regard) a better husband than the woman who chose a husband who left.

 

It sounds harsh, and I don't mean it as a suggestion that one woman is better than another (which I guess is what you are suggesting) - but one woman, for one reason or another, made a better choice in this regard.

 

<snip>

 

Are you really just asking why things aren't fair?  Why everyone doesn't have exactly the same amount of comfort in life and work the same amount and etc.?  If that is your question, trust me, you are doing waaaaay better than the average person on the planet right now in terms of life comfort :)

 

I agree. 

 

But even then, things change.   A couple who had intended that the wife would stay home may find that life has changed in  a way that it is no longer possible. 

 

Because there are no guarantees, right?

 

Tsuga, in one of your earlier posts you talked a lot about wanting to know the rules. That's a big part of your problem, I think:  there aren't any rules. 

 

Look at something besides marriage.   When I had my kids, I followed all the rules for making them healthy - physically, mentally, and intellectually.  So how come my friend ended up with two high-achieving kids who won full-ride scholarships to elite schools, and I didn't?   How come one of my kids has numerous health problems?  I followed all the rules.

 

it just didn't work out that way for me.  And, I don't want that other woman's kids.  I love my own kids! 

 

Stop looking for rules to follow.  Stop looking at what other people have.  Stop listening to your over-sharing office-mates.

 

I'm sorry you had a tough early life and that these values were "screamed at you" as you said. 

 

[Zebra]

I've tried to read this whole thread and I still don't understand it.

 

If I want to stay home alone all day and eat cupcakes, and my DH lets me, who cares?  

 

If you want to work in the cupcake factory full-time, who cares?   Why is any of this anyone's business or concern?   What on earth does it have to do with anyone else?

 

Sorry, I am stumped.  

[ktgrok]

Why do I deserve a man that works so I don't have to? It has NOTHING to do with what I deserve!! NOTHING! You can't judge worth or value of a human freaking being by how much money they have, what job they have, or if they work! It's not a matter of "do it right and you get rewarded! sometimes it's freaking luck, and life circumstances. Sorry, but that's true. 

 

Now, there ARE some things I actively did to help out my situation. I looked for a mate that was stable mentally and physically, with a good education, who had a great work ethic, in a field that could support him and eventually us. In other words, when I was online dating I NEVER considered anyone who labeled themselves an artist or musician. I just didn't. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but in my mind "musician" usually (but certainly not always) equaled unemployed, lol. Mind you, I'd been divorced. I'd had to rebuild. Oh, and I'd been working my ass off supporting my Ex, who didn't work do to a million bullshit reasons. That didn't protect me when things went south. Working or not, I would and did get half the house, assets, etc. I moved in with my parents (one of the assumptions of this kind stay at home culture are parents available to help out). I actually cut my hours back, doing that, so I could have more time with my son during the transition. A year later I went back to full time. Anyway, this to prove I'm not lazy, and know how to work. 

 

But when I was on the market for a new mate I certainly looked for certain things. That doesn't mean I was looking for a sugar daddy! On the contrary, when we met my now DH was living on his friend's couch! He was homeless! But, that's because he was working and going to school, both full time, and saving up money. He was paying the utility bill for the apartment to "earn" his keep. Later, as we were dating he moved into an apartment with a roommate, well within his means, and continued to work and go to school full time. He was obviously upwardly mobile, and more over showed me he was willing to be frugal, was willing to work hard, and was in a field that was pretty much a sure bet on doing well financially (cyber security). That's not the reason I fell in love with him, but I wouldn't have considered a first date if I hadn't thought he met the criteria I was looking for. None of this guaranteed that I'd be able to be a stay at home mom, but it was a decent bet. 

 

Later, after our first child together was born, we did in fact decide for me to stay home. And it is invaluable to him, NOT just because I care for kids, but because I'm here for the pest control man, the repair man, I can pick up dry-cleaning, pick up groceries, cook his meals, wash his clothes, care for the pets, take them to the vet, keep the pool clean, etc. Even more importantly, the handful of times he's forgotten something important at home I can get it to him, which means huge meetings at fortune 500 companies are not derailed. Those things help him with his career. Those things have value, above and beyond caring for kids. 

 

Also, I think he would value me having less stress, having time for the gym, etc because a happy healthy wife is more important to him than money, IF we already have enough money. 

 

As for what if he leaves? Honey, that's what community property laws are for!!! I live in a community property state, and get half of everything. If he dies, we have more than half a million dollars in life insurance on him. I am provided for either way. Moreover, I refuse to live my life with that worry. 

 

As for it taking 10 minutes to do the chores a SAHW does, in what world? You can shop for groceries, make a full dinner from scratch, do the dishes, vacuum, do laundry, pick up dry cleaning, clean the pool, etc in ten minutes?

[marbel]

<snip>

 

As for it taking 10 minutes to do the chores a SAHW does, in what world? You can shop for groceries, make a full dinner from scratch, do the dishes, vacuum, do laundry, pick up dry cleaning, clean the pool, etc in ten minutes?

 

Yes to the whole post, just snipped for brevity, not due to disagreement.

 

But I am also puzzled by this last bit.  Man I'd love it if I could get all I need to do in a day (separate from kids) done in 10 minutes.  

 

 

 

[Katy]

I have so many thoughts about this.  I think the very question indicates that the OP is from a lower-middle class or lower class  background. People I know that were raised upper middle or upper class (regardless of religion, lack therof, or which end of the political spectrum one falls on) tend to place a great deal of value on having the wife not work, partially because of status, and partially because being a corporate wife is work, it's just work of a different variety that is not as immediately obvious if you don't have those sorts of obligations.

 

If they are vegan, she probably wants to know exactly when he's leaving so their food is perfect.  Raw vegan dishes don't keep, they are supposed to be eaten within 15 minutes of preparation, and cooked vegetables rapidly lose quality if not served at just the right moment.  Over cooking reduces nutrition and flavor.

 

I'm sure there are many people in our circles who have had similar questions about me over the years.  DH has always preferred I not work, even when we were newly married.  When we met I made 3 times his salary and my net worth was hundreds of times his. Despite him choosing a high paying field he didn't choose to go for higher paying jobs in the field.  He chose to stay with the company he'd worked through college at. He valued stability over salary until he was working towards having a familiy.  After we met, he got the courage (he says from me) to go for a higher paying job at his dream company.  He got it.  He's since had several promotions, all of which involved moving across the country. Last year he made 6 times the salary he was making when we met.   That wouldn't be possible if I wasn't home. 

 

I spent the last several months prepping our house for sale, staging, researching, pricing, choosing a realtor, loading us all in the car every time there was a showing, choosing which of multiple offers the house got, going to the new location for house hunting and every inspection, going back to the old house to supervise moving, moving the "hazardous" materials myself, unpacking, cleaning, etc.  Over the next few years I'll remodel this new house and do the same thing over.  I'm sure to people outside the company it seems like I do nothing, but the fact is that in what I do for our homes alone is impacting our long term financial security in a huge way.

 

At DH's level or one higher in his company almost everyone either has a stay at home wife or the wife works for the same company.  It's difficult to have a career and move around every few years. It's difficult to network and work 80-100 hour weeks if you don't have someone else to do the work of your life. I'm sure to some members of DH's family I'm lazy.  To DH, if I worked, his ability to get promotions and his quality of life would decline a great deal.  Not to mention, hosting and attending dinner parties and other such fluffiness really helps when it comes to networking and getting the next promotion.

[EmilyGF]

This goes waaaaay back, so maybe it has been covered.

 

This could describe my friend. She was one of the top students in the country in high school and college and graduate school. Then she got her first job and experienced a series of strokes. Now, if you met here, you'd think she is fine. Hey, she travels a lot with her husband.

 

But she isn't fine. Writing is hard for her. She can't process noise. She gets really tired really easily. She no longer drives (pair that with getting tired easily and not being able to live in built up areas because of lack of noise processing). 

 

But she seems fine. She probably does ask her husband to come home earlier. She's dealt with depression. But you couldn't see this from the outside.

 

Emily

[Callie]

As for it taking 10 minutes to do the chores a SAHW does, in what world? You can shop for groceries, make a full dinner from scratch, do the dishes, vacuum, do laundry, pick up dry cleaning, clean the pool, etc in ten minutes?

I was curious about this also.

 

I think it all comes down to choices and good luck.  I have made a lot of decisions that have allowed me to continue to stay home.  My youngest is now 19 and I don't think I will go back to a paying job.  BUT I have and still do lots of things that others aren't willing to do.  I grow a giant garden, can/freeze food (really hot long long days of work).  I don't shop for fun.  We only eat out maybe 4-6 times a year (and some years not even that).  I do not own a clothes dryer, no electric heat (wood stove), no microwave, no smart phones.  I care for chickens, pigs and cattle.  Cook from scratch 3 times day.  

 

I could go on and on.  I do things all day that allow us to afford for me to stay home things that others think are beneath them.  We built our home ourselves (seriously from the ground up and lived in it while we did it).  We purposely choose to live in a low cost of living area.  

 

We made all our decisions many years ago when I was pregnant with #1 and working full time so that I could stay home and dh would work for pay.

[Scarlett]

Tsuga, you fascinate me. I will tell you why. I too am a rule follower. ( not to be confused with never making a mistake. I make plenty but I know when I do because--rules)

 

We come from very similar backgrounds. Raised in poverty, abandoned by our fathers. ( either financially or physically or both) forgive me if I have your childhood details wrong.

 

My mom stressed hard work too. And she worked hard. Oh my did she work hard. I don't know how she did it. However she also Impressed upon me that life is. Not. Fair. There are no guarantees. That we can do everything 'right' and things still go wrong.

 

I think this is the rule you have not yet learned.

 

And in addition to that some of our problems we bring on ourselves because we are not perfect. Like we pick bad first mates. I mean on paper mine seemed to check all the boxes as ok......except in hindsight he did not. If I had not married so young I might have been able to see those things. One of the things my mom worried about with him was that he wouldn't work.....because he had been rather privileged growing up....his mom never worked at all.......but it turns out that is the one thing my ex did really really well. He still provides really well financially for our son. I think my mom didn't worry so much about him turning into a serial adulterer because hello Scarlett is wonderful. LOL....I wish her opinion of me would have kept him from destroying our family.

 

But life doesn't work that way. He let his weaknesses get the best of him and I ended up divorced at age 45 with no job and a 10 year old. Was I scared? Yes. Terrified. But it would have not been any easier if my son had been in public school and I had been working the last ten years. In fact many things were easier because I had been staying home. My son didn't have to change schools when we were forced to move.....I was able to be with him all the time and help him with the divorce. I got alimony. He had to pay my legal fees. And trust me I kept up on things those last ten years because I didn't really trust him to be safe for our family. I knew my rights and I always knew I could survive without him.

 

As for your idea of how easy it is to take care of a home without kids.....hmm. I work roughly 20 hours a week for a man who has no wife and a 3 year old he has half time. I could work more than that....but it is all I can handle and still take care of my own house. I Do many of the things for him that a wife would do. I clean, I shop, I run errands, I organize. He really appreciates all I do for him....because there is no way he could do it in 10 minute a day. And most of it does not have to do with childcare.....he says I enable him to spend time with his daughter.

 

In my own life, I hope things ease up for us so that I can be free to have a calmer and cleaner home. Be able to do things for others when they need it. I have so many things I want to do right now....flower beds, organization, volunteering, cooking better meals for my family etc. in fact I get a little irritated sometimes because some of the things I do for my boss I wish I could do for my own home. It might help you to realize there is much more to caring for a home than the bare minimum. And sometimes the bare minimum is all we can manage....but if possible I would gladly choose the easier path that creates a better home atmosphere.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Scarlett