Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[marbel]

 

 

<video snipped>

 

 

That's funny. But rude people can always find a way to be rude, and that's a far cry from what *most* people are asking when they're trying to make conversation. 

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by marbel

[Carol in Cal.]

I ask explicitly about accents.  I think it's better to put it on the table than to possibly give offense by making assumptions.

So I say, "Wow, I love your accent.  Where is it from?" 

[OneStepAtATime]

In military circles, the "where are you from" question is usually the first question asked, followed by "what other bases have you been to?"

Yep.  Growing up I got asked the question a lot.  Didn't bother me since most of the people asking were from other places, too.  They weren't trying to exclude me, just get to know me and share experiences.

 

However, there were exceptions...

[Valley Girl]

Exactly. When mine were babies, I worked one night a week, "in case."

 

Then as our medical bills pilled up and up, I added more and more hours. Our medical bills have run into the tens of thousands every year for over a decade. No way can DH work more, and up until just recently, my teens couldn't work either. Family couldn't help.

 

And the flack from our church has been ugly at times. Everything from talks about baby showers about how working women are undermining society and the church to people telling me that they were praying that God would restore "proper" order to our family.  There are three women in a church of several dozen families who work. One of them thankfully is an elder's wife, but it still flares up here-and-there.

 

Frankly if it weren't for DH, I would go elsewhere to church. When we met we attended a church in the same denomination that was far more balanced. I actually go there 4-5 times a year just to refresh and enjoy being with them again, although it's about 90 minutes each way. Both of these churches are in a major metropolitan area BTW. Our current church wasn't as strong that way either when we moved here, but one of the elders comes from a Gothard background. Their family has unfortunately become a major influence, and others have since come with that mindset.

 

Maybe you could tell them that you'll quit working when the church busybodies pony up and start paying those medical bills for you. I bet that would shut them up.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Of course my husband gets asked where he is from.  He has an accent.  I have never gotten the impression anyone is trying to be rude. 

 

He says I don't have an accent...everyone else does.  :laugh:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Of course my husband gets asked where he is from.  He has an accent.  I have never gotten the impression anyone is trying to be rude. 

 

He says I don't have an accent...everyone else does.  :laugh:

[Murphy101]

I ask explicitly about accents. I think it's better to put it on the table than to possibly give offense by making assumptions.

So I say, "Wow, I love your accent. Where is it from?"

Why would their accent even matter or lead to offense? What exactly are you assuming about accents?

 

Personally I dislike that question. It feels like a grammar slap and makes a person feel self conscious talking to others. No one can ever place my accent. Well unless I'm really angry and then there's zero doubt where I'm from.

 

I have several children who many people think speak with a very British accent and we are not at all British. In theory I should have shelled out thousands of dollars for speech therapy per child to eradicate that, but frankly I didn't think speaking with a British accent was all that horrible an offense. Guess that makes me an awful mother, but mostly I think it just makes me a not rich one.

 

ETA: I wouldn't be offended by it or instantly hate you or anything. I just think it can, and in our case does, make some people uncomfortable.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Murphy101

[heartlikealion]

Oh I don't automatically think people are being rude when they ask where I'm from. It depends if they scrunch up their face or give a knowingly nod that makes it awkward.

 

Yes, people sometimes do it to exclude. So they can call you a yankee or something behind your back. I'm not a Yankee and don't think I've been called one, that's just an example. Dh has been told a few nasty things just because we're from a different part of the state. There's a huge cultural difference in some parts of the state vs others. I luckily have had mostly pleasant encounters when meeting new people. One of the funniest questions I've gotten here (a number of times) with strangers is, "are you a teacher?" because Teach For America teachers come here.

[Guest]

I have recd flak both ways...fortunately I know the corect reply, which is ' none ya'...as in its none of your business.

 

To answer the rule question...the rule to stay out of poverty, developed by the Brookings Institute, is graduate with at least a high school degree, have a full time job, dont marry until 21+ , and dont have children until married. That equates to a 74 percent chance of being in the middle class.

 

To have a retirement and leave an inheritance, you have to educate yourself financially and make choices that allow you to build wealth. The classic advice is buy low, sell high. And invest in yourself.

Yeah, those are the agreed upon basics for sound living. Still no guarantee, which may be what is throwing Tsuga. Sometimes life is awesome and sometimes it sucks, independent of our choices.

 

One thing I haven't seen addressed on this thread is choices - I knew I wanted to stay home and homeschool, work at building my business, etc. I rejected several professional men and refused to date swaths of people I went to school with because they didn't agree with me on that course of action or weren't likely to support it. Even my own father tended to be more egalitarian than complementarian. So because I had these goals and values, along with many others, I went into the process of selecting my mate with these among the basic criteria. So it wasn't luck or an awesome and generous man that let me be a housewife, like I won a lottery - but rather that I intentionally selected a spouse who aligned with me on my views of how a marriage should be structured and what role I desired to fulfil.

 

Now, that STILL isn't a guarantee - but barring catastrophic financial issues, illness, divorce, or death on his part we have maintained the exact arrangement we wanted and will continue it. Things change in unpredictable ways but this is hardly Russian Roulette where we might get lucky and land on the number we want. There are absolutely ways to greatly increase the odds of a certain kind of outcome through the choices we make - especially in a marriage. Zero guarantees, but choosing a mate compatible with the life one wants to live is a great step in the right direction.

 

A mismatch in that perspective has lead to many a divorce - some women on this thread mentioned they had husbands who DIDN'T want them to work when they did and thus, friction. Same with a man who doesn't want children and you do - preventable trouble. I hope I instill in my children this one lesson, that it is absolutely a good thing to be picky and hold high standards when looking for a spouse. Know what is important to you and uncompromisable, and don't be afraid to say no to a nice person if you two don't align on a critical issue for your contentedness in life. Don't count on someone changing or luck - take them as they are and evaluate things with a clear and analytical head. No settling on the crucial points.

 

Marrying well for what one wants in life is another one of those basic life rules that guarantees nothing of outcomes but makes a good one much more probable.

[Carol in Cal.]

Why would their accent even matter or lead to offense? What exactly are you assuming about accents?

 

Personally I dislike that question. It feels like a grammar slap and makes a person feel self conscious talking to others. No one can ever place my accent. Well unless I'm really angry and then there's zero doubt where I'm from.

 

I have several children who many people think speak with a very British accent and we are not at all British. In theory I should have shelled out thousands of dollars for speech therapy per child to eradicate that, but frankly I didn't think speaking with a British accent was all that horrible an offense. Guess that makes me an awful mother, but mostly I think it just makes me a not rich one.

 

ETA: I wouldn't be offended by it or instantly hate you or anything. I just think it can, and in our case does, make some people uncomfortable.

Asking where someone is from could give offense.

Complimenting and asking about their accent doesn't.  The compliment is key.  And I only say it when I mean it.  I don't think anyone would ever interpret my genuine admiration and interest as a grammar slap.

[hornblower]

I ask explicitly about accents.  I think it's better to put it on the table than to possibly give offense by making assumptions.

So I say, "Wow, I love your accent.  Where is it from?" 

 

Again, that really depends.

 

Some people feel that is drawing attention again to their differences, esp if they come from a group that is discriminated against. People who spend years & tons of money on elocution and pronunciation and speech therapy will not appreciate you commenting on something they're sometimes embarrassed about.  

 

For every "I love your accent" my mother probably heard three "what's that? I don't understand you." when people DID understand her.

 

They were saying it to humiliate her.

 

The only acceptable accents here for a long time were from the UK & French. Anything else got lots of commentary whose undercurrent was to signal that "you're not from here & you don't belong & you're not one of us."  (& among the UK accents there's that whole other subset of accent signalling class background. I got the impression that some of the UK expats deliberately altered their accents here as part of their new identity to give themselves a different SE background....That's a whole different topic but I married into a UK family so I've seen some of this first hand...) 

 

It's a thing that is hard to explain. 

 

My province now is almost 1/4 visible minority & another 5 % First Nations.

 

IME you tread carefully about drawing attention to people's accents. We circle around to these topics. "Do you travel?" "oh, not much  but this year I'm just going home to visit my sister" "oh, where is that?" "Beijing."  "That's nice. Did you use to live there or is that just where she lives?" and then the person might offer some information etc....  Some people will just straight out offer the info. And honestly, if it's someone who hasn't shed their accent I would know within moments where they're probably from.  I wouldn't really want to comment on it though...

 

It's easier for me to ask "hey, so what do you do outside of work? what really gets you passionate?" LOL 

 

 

[heartlikealion]

Asking where someone is from could give offense.

Complimenting and asking about their accent doesn't.  The compliment is key.  And I only say it when I mean it.  I don't think anyone would ever interpret my genuine admiration and interest as a grammar slap.

 

This is subjective I think. I might be self-conscious that someone brought up my American accent while I struggled to speak a second language, regardless of whether it was put in that context. My goal would be to hide my accent in an attempt to sound closer to a native speaker.

[FaithManor]

 

And the flack from our church has been ugly at times. Everything from talks at baby showers about how working women are undermining society and people telling me that they were praying that God would restore "proper" order to our family.  There are only three women in a church of several dozen families who work. One of them thankfully is an elder's wife, but it still flares up here-and-there.

One of the uber conservative pastors in our area has lamented that 'working mothers ruin VBS".

 

Nice.

 

Because you know it is perfectly reasonable to expect families make their economic and family well being decisions based upon the church wanting to have a day time VBS and demanding women run it!  :banghead:

 

I am going to be really judgey here. When we lived in "college towns", we never heard this kind of stuff. I have no idea if that is just a coincidence or not, but I suspect that the people who live in and around educational institutions maybe have a more live and let live mentality and due to the constant influx of new students, new faculty and staff, etc. experience more diversity of family culture so maybe have a wider perspective.

 

Then again, maybe not. But I have to tell you, I am ready for a college town!  :)

[Murphy101]

I never thought I'd marry, much less marry at 19. But I met him when I met him. It's not like someone can say, "Oh look, there's a guy I'll decide to fall in love with now that I'm 25 and have graduated college and got a decent paying job."

 

I never thought I wanted to be a sahp. I presumed I'd go to work at 6 week postpartum like everyone else we knew. I was never going to be one of those mothers that got all caught up in their kids and did nothing with their own life.

 

Then I had a baby. And bawled like a total imbecile every day I dropped him off at daycare.

 

And I surprised myself by discovering that as much as I'm not a big fan of other people's kids, I actually sorta like my own.

 

And I never thought we would home school. No, I'd work so we could afford private schools.

 

And then I discovered private schools are damned expensive and not always much better than public schools and discovered that in our area a safer country suburban school is a myth.

 

And church? Who the hell does that?

 

And yet here I am. A home schooling stay at home Catholic mom of 10.4.

 

Worthless as I am, somehow I seem happier for it.

[marbel]

I know some people from England who make fun of Americans who say "I love your accent." It comes off to then as very much a cliché. They would prefer the more straightforward "where are you from?"

 

Apparently there are no safe questions anymore.

[Murphy101]

I'm not saying anyone should do what I did to be happy.

 

I just get annoyed at the whole do this to be wealthy and happy list.

 

As though you can just suddenly meet mr right when it doesn't conflict with your other plans.

 

As though anyone knows what kind of mother they will need to be for their child(ren) before they ever have them.

 

Life is not a checklist.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yeah, those are the agreed upon basics for sound living. Still no guarantee, which may be what is throwing Tsuga. Sometimes life is awesome and sometimes it sucks, independent of our choices.

 

One thing I haven't seen addressed on this thread is choices - I knew I wanted to stay home and homeschool, work at building my business, etc. I rejected several professional men and refused to date swaths of people I went to school with because they didn't agree with me on that course of action or weren't likely to support it. Even my own father tended to be more egalitarian than complementarian. So because I had these goals and values, along with many others, I went into the process of selecting my mate with these among the basic criteria. So it wasn't luck or an awesome and generous man that let me be a housewife, like I won a lottery - but rather that I intentionally selected a spouse who aligned with me on my views of how a marriage should be structured and what role I desired to fulfil.

 

Now, that STILL isn't a guarantee - but barring catastrophic financial issues, illness, divorce, or death on his part we have maintained the exact arrangement we wanted and will continue it. Things change in unpredictable ways but this is hardly Russian Roulette where we might get lucky and land on the number we want. There are absolutely ways to greatly increase the odds of a certain kind of outcome through the choices we make - especially in a marriage. Zero guarantees, but choosing a mate compatible with the life one wants to live is a great step in the right direction.

 

A mismatch in that perspective has lead to many a divorce - some women on this thread mentioned they had husbands who DIDN'T want them to work when they did and thus, friction. Same with a man who doesn't want children and you do - preventable trouble. I hope I instill in my children this one lesson, that it is absolutely a good thing to be picky and hold high standards when looking for a spouse. Know what is important to you and uncompromisable, and don't be afraid to say no to a nice person if you two don't align on a critical issue for your contentedness in life. Don't count on someone changing or luck - take them as they are and evaluate things with a clear and analytical head. No settling on the crucial points.

 

Marrying well for what one wants in life is another one of those basic life rules that guarantees nothing of outcomes but makes a good one much more probable.

Sounds great on paper but people change, people aren't always honest and sometimes people don't even know how they really feel about things or will deal with things until they are in the thick of it, etc..  This also doesn't take into consideration actual attraction.  There are a lot of guys I met along the way that ticked off necessary boxes that I was not even remotely attracted to in any way, shape or form.  

 

I agree that if you KNOW the person you are dating is controlling, or has vastly different views on critical life views than you, or if you are aware ahead of time that they can't stand kids and you want kids, etc. then marrying them anyway is setting your marriage up for some serious conflicts.  I agree that talking about these things ahead of time can be hugely helpful in finding someone that is a good fit.  It is not a guarantee, though, as you said.  Not at all.  Too many other variables.  And honestly this can come off as just as judgey an attitude as other views.  If someone ends up divorced my first thought is not going to be "That poor woman. She didn't pre-select her mate properly.  If only she had pre-selected her mate properly she would be just fine, no issues."

[hornblower]

I never thought I'd marry, much less marry at 19. But I met him when I met him. It's not like someone can say, "Oh look, there's a guy I'll decide to fall in love with now that I'm 25 and have graduated college and got a decent paying job."

 

 

 

But just because you meet someone and fall in love doesn't mean you have to marry. You can wait. I did. Dh & I were together for 5 years before we decided to marry. During that time we both finished degrees & started our careers. It's what I advise my kids to do. 

[SKL]

Maybe you could tell them that you'll quit working when the church busybodies pony up and start paying those medical bills for you. I bet that would shut them up.

 

Or "thanks for your loving kindness, but I'd rather you prayed that our medical bills all miraculously paid themselves."

 

[frogger]

I know some people from England who make fun of Americans who say "I love your accent." It comes off to then as very much a cliché. They would prefer the more straightforward "where are you from?"

 

Apparently there are no safe questions anymore.

 

Yes, basically no matter what you say now days someone will be offended. 

 

Unless a person seems to be trying to purposely insult me I just take things in stride and assume they are just trying to be friendly. Someone who just met you won't know your pet peeves and obviously with our mobile society you are going to run into all sorts from a variety of backgrounds who have different pet peeves. The other alternative is to just say nothing at all to any stranger. That is not the society I want to live in though. 

[Callie]

So I've not quit thinking of this thread while I worked in my home for no pay today.  And I began to wonder about a few things.  I'll preface by saying that the op's premise is baffling to me.  I was raised in a time and place where sahm/w's were valued as were people who give of their time by volunteering.  

 

Does my dh get to eat the granola, yogurt, boiled eggs or pickled mustard eggs I made this morning.  I know the money he made by working purchased the stuff, but I did all the labor.

 

Take the eggs for instance.  His money (remember I haven't worked in 26 years) purchased the hens that laid the eggs, sort of.  Because really these layers are several generations away from the original hens & rooster (we hatch our own eggs).  I've cared for all those chickens for 20 years now.  I feed & water them daily, collect & wash the eggs, cook the eggs and wash the dishes from cooking.  I'd say he has already had his fair share of the eggs (and maybe he owes me some sex ;).

 

The same can be said of most anything we have or do.  What about the beef we raise.  Yes he originally purchased them with money he earned but I care for them daily.  Who does the hamburger I just grilled last night belong to?  He mowed, raked & rolled the hay but I picked the beef up from the processor and hauled it home.  I plan, defrost, cook and clean.  He loaded it onto the trailer and took them there.

 

The tomatoes I planted yesterday?  He bought the seeds but I'll see them all the way into jars of sauce or on a sandwich (with sourdough I baked).

 

I could go on forever.  There is no fair in life.  You just do what you do and hope you enjoy the ride.

 

The truth is my dh will tell anyone who asks (and has told me many times) that he doesn't want my job.  He is more than happy to earn the money while I do my thing here.  

[Guest]

That's why I put in about a million caveats about nothing being guaranteed. But if something *is* important to you it behooves you to think about that and keep it as a criteria when looking at partners. Even casual dating ones. You never know who you might fall for and I personally avoided ones who were totally unsuitable to my future plans because it seemed like tempting fate.

 

My comment is to address Tsuga's weirdness over rules or luck or who deserves what. It's not sheer luck and it isn't what someone does or doesn't deserve - but I personally didn't just roll the dice on my spouse or marry the person I thought was hottest or most fun. We both went pretty deeply into our basic values and goals and verified they aligned before going into a deeper relationship and I firmly believe it's a solid way to proceed. Aligning on the fundamentals is very important. People DO change and circumstances are often beyond our control, but evaluating our potential marriage partners for things like how they view day to day life proceeding and what they want and expect out of their spouse is a pretty basic screening technique.

 

Maybe some other housewives and SAHMs came into their circumstances by luck or life throwing curveballs. That wasn't the case with us - it was intentional from our first date. So I'm speaking my particular experience in that and how I will advise my children to try and help them not get into a relationship where they are fundamentally at odds with their partner on these very topics. It's the same reason I will advise them to finish school before marrying and start their retirement accounts with their very first job - wisdom and experience from us helping them to get a better outcome. We can promise nothing but want to put the odds as much in their favor as we can. There are no rules, just basics for wise decision making.

[SKL]

Yeah, basically there is no safe thing any American can say.

 

But funny thing, I've traveled in dozens of countries and nobody felt shy to ask me where I was from.

 

But I'm supposed to pretend I'm deaf and blind.

 

Whatever, it usually comes out one way or another, because most people actually enjoy talking about themselves.

[Guest]

 

But just because you meet someone and fall in love doesn't mean you have to marry. You can wait. I did. Dh & I were together for 5 years before we decided to marry. During that time we both finished degrees & started our careers. It's what I advise my kids to do.

Exactly. I think this sort of basic criteria evaluation goes in with the rest of responsible parenting and advice. To give the kids their best chance at stability and happiness. Marriage is a big enough deal that it deserves planning and as much getting as possible before proceeding toward that path. I personally think that begins with who we date and why, and my husband and I were both highly selective for a few particular things, including roles of spouses/values/child rearing philosophies. These things can absolutely crumble a relationship if they aren't aligned and I'd have been miserable with someone who fought me constantly on my own hopes and dreams for myself in a marriage relationship.

 

 

Aaaaanyway, it's slightly off topic but I'm not a housewife and my husband isn't an engineer because of luck - we were intentional about our life choices, including saying no to relationships and prioritizing school (him) and saying no to relationships and focusing on common views of marriage structure and values (me). We made conscious decisions from the getgo to support the outcome we wanted. And that could change in an instant, with cancer or a car crash or whatever. But the basic alignment of our hearts and minds toward rhe same goals in life and the same path for getting there was something we actively sought out and found in one another. No guarantees but we are happy for the time being :)

[Callie]

 

Apparently there are no safe questions anymore.

I have come to realize after many years of reading WTM that I have offended a great many people with my behaviors.  And that people hate southern accents (and I'm from rural Ky).

[MSNative]

One of the uber conservative pastors in our area has lamented that 'working mothers ruin VBS".

 

Nice.

 

Because you know it is perfectly reasonable to expect families make their economic and family well being decisions based upon the church wanting to have a day time VBS and demanding women run it! :banghead:

 

I am going to be really judgey here. When we lived in "college towns", we never heard this kind of stuff. I have no idea if that is just a coincidence or not, but I suspect that the people who live in and around educational institutions maybe have a more live and let live mentality and due to the constant influx of new students, new faculty and staff, etc. experience more diversity of family culture so maybe have a wider perspective.

 

Then again, maybe not. But I have to tell you, I am ready for a college town! :)

My very liberal pastor laments the same thing. I don't think it's political. And as I told him, it's not working mothers. If there aren't enough volunteers who want to commit then it's not a program we need to do. And many SAHMs don't volunteer because they have other commitments for themselves or their kids. Frankly most churches don't have enough volunteers for numerous reasons. In my church's case I think it's because we do way too many things. sorry. Hot button issue

 

Military bases, urban areas, and transient areas tend to deal very well with newcomers. Some college towns do too. Some, not so much. We recently moved from a college town. Small city/large town and a decent size college. But still very closed minded and up in your business. Sigh. So if you do end up bailing for a college town, message me so I can tell you at least one to avoid! 😂😂

[Liz CA]

Could this be a regional thing? I don't want to generalize, but I've seen the op type of thinking in people from some cities on the west coast -- Seattle and San Francisco (Silicon Valley) are the two I'm familiar with.

 

Sure, these areas place a lot of emphasis on academic and professional achievement, however, I have read enough of the OP's posts (not just in this thread) that lead me to think there is a lot brewing under the surface. Tsuga, I think situations like the one you describe trigger a lot of painful memories for you.

[Katy]

I agree that finding a husband who wants a traditional wife who doesn't work isn't at all like the lottery.  I sought out a man who was happy with me never working, but is supportive when I sometimes choose to.  DH is egalitarian, but from a conservative Midwestern family. He is happy to support whatever makes me happy, but really appreciates it when I choose not to work.

 

Before I met DH I lived in the Bay area (San Francisco) for a short time.  I once posted on a dating site there that I was ready to get married and wanted more traditional relationship roles.  I got hundreds of responses the very first day, some of which were incredulous, "This has to be fake!  There are no women who want this any more!!!"  Some of which were sincere, and many of which were raised upper class and valued lifestyle over work (they could afford to).   That's how I ended up engaged to the investment banker I never married but have mentioned here before. It turned out that wasn't a lifestyle I wanted either, but for different reasons.  It seemed the values of moneyed families from the North are very different from families from the South, and I couldn't imagine raising my kids the way he wanted to raise kids, or allowing my children to treat me the way he treated his parents.

 

Point being, you can control who you marry, you can choose someone who wants whatever it is you want.  And if you have a certain level of education and you're willing to hold out for someone with money you can even get a prenup that will allow you to never work in the event they divorce you.  IME that much money is no guarantee of happiness though.

[Murphy101]

 

But just because you meet someone and fall in love doesn't mean you have to marry. You can wait. I did. Dh & I were together for 5 years before we decided to marry. During that time we both finished degrees & started our careers. It's what I advise my kids to do.

Depends on what you mean by wait.

 

Wait to have sex?

Wait to live together?

Wait to start a life together?

 

Those are things, in my mind anyways, that married people do. They are the things that naturally grow out of love and that people in love deeply crave to share with one another. And love tends, though not always, to suffer when it cannot express growth in those ways.

 

The theory that absence makes the heart grow fonder actually tends to not hold much truth.

 

If it matters, dh and I did wait. He actually proposed when we were 16 and we married three years later. In theory, I suppose we could have waited another.. What? Four years? To get married, but really I don't think that would have helped either of us financially or made our marriage better.

[Paige]

What does she do all day? It sounds odd if she literally stays home alone all day- abnormal, like something must be off. My theory would be either she has some kind of emotional/mental issues, or you aren't getting the whole picture from the husband. Maybe she's just his excuse and is nothing like you are picturing. Maybe she has some sort of agoraphobia or PTSD that makes her uncomfortable going out independently but her spouse makes her feel secure. I don't know. I would go nuts if I was home alone waiting for DH all day every day and I'm very much an introvert!

 

Most people I know who aren't working do stuff- they have hobbies or volunteer interests that get them outside of the house regularly. 

[Guest]

:::snip:::

 

I always hated working with guys who used to complain about their wives, and the ones who tried to do it in the martyr-ish way where they weren't really complaining (but they were) were the worst. They also seemed to be the guys setting up for affairs at work. Not saying that's what's necessarily happening here- but seriously. If he's talking about his wife that much at work he needs to find something else to talk about.

 

ETA- I shouldn't say just guys because women are just as guilty. Either way, people need to have some boundaries and put the intimacy of the marriage ahead of making small talk with coworkers.

 

ITA.  I always want to say, "You're pretty stupid for having married him/her."  But I don't say it.  

 

I'm not saying I never have a gripe about my dh, and I am SURE he has plenty to gripe about re: me...but we NEVER air that to the world at large, and even if we talk about it with someone else (a trusted friend who loves us both), the purpose is not to rank on the spouse but to get a perspective that will help us get past our issues, that will help us love one another better.  "Venting" isn't the point.

 

So maybe the OP's concern is a visceral one, that she sees a bad marriage and feels that both people had better be looking out for themselves financially, because it seems that they aren't looking after each other in love anyway.  And truth be told, the courts aren't going to be much financial help to a divorcing spouse who doesn't work by choice.  The OP is correct in saying that the wife could be in a risky position, financially. It depends a lot on the trustworthiness of the spouse and on their resources we know nothing about.  

[hornblower]

Depends on what you mean by wait.

 

 

 

Wait to make commitments that have permanent ramifications, such as legally recognized partnerships or having a child together.

I don't have problems with people having sex or living together. It's more the legal implications.

 

In my province (& it varies from province to province) couples are common law & considered equivalent to married after cohabiting for 2 years. This can have big implications because in our province, if you break up after that it can trigger claims for support. Property & debts acquired during that period could also be subject to splitting up unless you had legal agreements drawn up to prevent that. 

 

And having kids can just really derail things, esp if it turns out it's with the wrong person.  (I've said before on this board that I teach my kids that babies, drugs, drunk driving, & debt can derail your life. I guess I should add shacking up with the wrong person... ) 

[HS Mom in NC]

 

I've never heard anyone else ever refer to babysitting their own children.

 

My oldest brother does. We don't; we call it parenting.

 

[gardenmom5]

I agree it sounds like this is boiling down to a "why didn't *I* win the lottery?" question. Well because you didn't. Life isn't fair. That's the only rule there is. Life isn't fair.

 

my friends mom would always respond - Life isn't fair, and you don't want it to be. 

there's also - Life is what happens when you're making other plans.

all you can do  is  try to make good decisions - and do the best you can with the cards life deals you.

 

Could this be a regional thing? I don't want to generalize, but I've seen the op type of thinking in people from some cities on the west coast -- Seattle and San Francisco (Silicon Valley) are the two I'm familiar with.

 

I think tsuga is in the seattle area.  I can't think of anyone else from here with that attitude.  my grandparents came here for the war, and never went back.

 

I keep thinking along these lines, too. There are so many scenarios like this that could be playing out. Tsuga said the wife wants to pursue hobbies that preclude a disability (long hikes) but I can think of many disabilities that would allow for those activities on good days.  .

hiking  can also be physically therapeutic, and can take time.

 

ds's  gf (whom  he says he wants to marry), has nocturnal seizures.  they are not controlled (not for want of trying).  they leave her very wiped out the following day.

it is very disabling for her.

 

I admit to wondering if the OP is talking about my brother and SIL-because that's probably how they appear to the outside. What isn't obvious is that SIL is a TBI patient, who has seizures and memory issues and other long-term effects-so she truly is stranded at home unless she lives somewhere with excellent public transit or that is very walkable. Her seizures are controlled, but it takes very little stress/pressure to push her out of control. And her memory issues are such that it is entirely possible that if she has a bad day she may call or text someone repeatedly, because she remembers she needs to call-but not necessarily remember she's done so. She is a sweet woman-willing to volunteer and help out, and loves being the 1950's housewife and takes a lot of pride in doing so, but unless you are around her a lot, you truly don't realize how much her day to day functioning depends on essentially living the 1950's life.

 

 

Others are addressing many of Tsuga's points, but one that stood out to me was her talking about one spouse leaving the other. I interpret that as something she worries about. I don't worry about that at all.

 

it's also something I've never worried about - and my father died when I was 12.  even with insurance, (and PMI on our house paid off the mortgage), life was very very different.  even with a dh older than me, death really hasn't been given much thought.   and the idea that he would leave me - even less.  he dated a lot before we were married, and 30+ years later I still hear how much better I am than whomever was in 2nd place.

Edited May 26, 2016 by gardenmom5

[TammyS]

I don't think it's not okay, I think sometimes it is not used with friendly intent. Which really anything can be.

 

It's no different than I know when people ask me what my dh does for a living, sometimes what they really want to know is whether we are baby popping moochers on the govt dole or is he rich. It never seem to occur to people that one can be neither or both. Yes, the question is the same and on the surface there's nothing at all wrong with it, but we all know a lot of communication is not in the actual words.

 

You know what?  I don't care.  Some people are butts and the particular form of their buttness seems nothing more than a detail.

 

People who are not butts should feel free to ask normal questions that help you get to know people better.

[SKL]

What does she do all day? It sounds odd if she literally stays home alone all day- abnormal, like something must be off. My theory would be either she has some kind of emotional/mental issues, or you aren't getting the whole picture from the husband. Maybe she's just his excuse and is nothing like you are picturing. Maybe she has some sort of agoraphobia or PTSD that makes her uncomfortable going out independently but her spouse makes her feel secure. I don't know. I would go nuts if I was home alone waiting for DH all day every day and I'm very much an introvert!

 

Most people I know who aren't working do stuff- they have hobbies or volunteer interests that get them outside of the house regularly. 

 

Hmm, I literally stay home all day [during business hours], ideally alone.  :)  I much prefer it that way.

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by SKL

[Murphy101]

Wait to make commitments that have permanent ramifications, such as legally recognized partnerships or having a child together.

I don't have problems with people having sex or living together. It's more the legal implications.

 

In my province (& it varies from province to province) couples are common law & considered equivalent to married after cohabiting for 2 years. This can have big implications because in our province, if you break up after that it can trigger claims for support. Property & debts acquired during that period could also be subject to splitting up unless you had legal agreements drawn up to prevent that.

 

And having kids can just really derail things, esp if it turns out it's with the wrong person. (I've said before on this board that I teach my kids that babies, drugs, drunk driving, & debt can derail your life. I guess I should add shacking up with the wrong person... )

That's a very different philosophy from mine I suppose...

 

To me, if you aren't willing to marry and accept the risk of babies then seriously I have no idea why one would live together or engage in activity that tends to cause babies. (What with birth control not being 100%. One can bemoan being the 1-20% all they want but that's like betting and getting upset when the house wins. I can understand why people use birth control, even while not agreeing, it's the presumption they won't ever be the % that ends up pregnant I've never understood. It's a common enough occurrence that I'd think people wouldn't be so surprised.)

 

It's also no shocker to me how many many many people I know who try that route and then ... End up single parents or unhappily attached in a marriage anyways. If someone engages in marital activity (living together and or having sex) but then acts surprised and upset when their life is derailed by ending up connected to the wrong person with or without a kid in tow - I just kind of look at them like :huh:?

 

We were actually very forcefully encouraged to just live together instead of getting married. We didn't understand the point. Either fish or cut bait. If we weren't sure, then we didn't want to live together. If we were, then we might as well get married and get on with making a life together.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

You know what? I don't care. Some people are butts and the particular form of their buttness seems nothing more than a detail.

 

People who are not butts should feel free to ask normal questions that help you get to know people better.

Alrighty then.

 

You might note I started by saying I think it's okay to ask.

 

If I got offended everytime someone was a butt to me, I'd never make it out of the house without needing anger management coaching.

 

Butts are everywhere.

[regentrude]

One thing I haven't seen addressed on this thread is choices - I knew I wanted to stay home and homeschool, work at building my business, etc. I rejected several professional men and refused to date swaths of people I went to school with because they didn't agree with me on that course of action or weren't likely to support it. Even my own father tended to be more egalitarian than complementarian. So because I had these goals and values, along with many others, I went into the process of selecting my mate with these among the basic criteria. So it wasn't luck or an awesome and generous man that let me be a housewife, like I won a lottery - but rather that I intentionally selected a spouse who aligned with me on my views of how a marriage should be structured and what role I desired to fulfil.

 

Now, that STILL isn't a guarantee - but barring catastrophic financial issues, illness, divorce, or death on his part we have maintained the exact arrangement we wanted and will continue it. Things change in unpredictable ways but this is hardly Russian Roulette where we might get lucky and land on the number we want. There are absolutely ways to greatly increase the odds of a certain kind of outcome through the choices we make - especially in a marriage. Zero guarantees, but choosing a mate compatible with the life one wants to live is a great step in the right direction.

 

A mismatch in that perspective has lead to many a divorce - some women on this thread mentioned they had husbands who DIDN'T want them to work when they did and thus, friction. Same with a man who doesn't want children and you do - preventable trouble. I hope I instill in my children this one lesson, that it is absolutely a good thing to be picky and hold high standards when looking for a spouse. Know what is important to you and uncompromisable, and don't be afraid to say no to a nice person if you two don't align on a critical issue for your contentedness in life. Don't count on someone changing or luck - take them as they are and evaluate things with a clear and analytical head. No settling on the crucial points.

 

I think this is too simple. YOU knew what you wanted to do with your life, could select the "appropriate" spouse, and make it happen.

This is rare at 18. Many people do not have such a clear idea how their life is supposed to look like - perspectives change. Women who knew at 20 they wanted to remain childless feel the strong urge to become mothers when they are 30. Women who always envisioned themselves as SAHMs find out that they suffer from crippling depression when they finally do. Women who always wanted to keep working find out that this does not work for their families because their husband's job situation has changed.

In a good relationship, both partners can work with such changes and find a solution that works for the family - even if none of this had been planned from the outset.

At age 18, I lived in a country that held its citizens prisoners, did not let them out or move freely. I knew I would be assigned a job after college at which I would work until secure retirement, I would receive one year of paid leave for each child, free childcare. I would not have many choices to make in life. I could not in my wildest dreams have forseen that that entire society would no longer exist four years later, that I would be able to live and work abroad, that my DH would take a job on another continent. NONE of this was forseeable.

I guess I am fortunate I did not choose a spouse that would have been compatible with only my 18 y/o ideas about life, but one who grew with the circumstances, and with whom I am able to communicate and find a solution that works for both of us.

Edited May 26, 2016 by regentrude

[Guest]

I married at 19. It can definitely happen. I wish my family had instilled this in me so I could have avoided a bunch of poor relationship choices, like my husband did (who intentionally didn't date in college and didn't marry until 28 because of work and school priorities) but I figured it out soon enough. Compromising on the basics isn't worth it.

 

Don't underestimate the intention and consideration an adult, even a young adult, can have when they prioritize. And for example, though I married young I won't recommend that to my kids. It was quite a surprise to meet criteria-dude a decade earlier than I expected and plans changed to accomodate that as it was more important to me than what I was pursuing.

 

To be clear I'm not talking details but basic personal values and goals. Know thyself and all that jazz. Lots of details have adjusted with life but who I am and who my husband is hasn't changed at the core, neither have our hopes and dreams for ourselves. I accept that we could be aberrations in this, but that's not what my circle of people reflects.

 

This is my personal view based on my personal experiences, your mileage may vary :)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Murphy101]

Heck. I'm 42 and have no idea what I want to be when I grow up.

 

I never know whether to be impressed or just think they are full of crap when I hear people of any age talk about how they know what they are going to do with their lives and what they want for the next 10-30 years.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but life has never cared one bit about my plans. Sometimes I swear Life takes it as a personal challenge to derail any plans or expectations I develop. Being forever the optimist, I still keep making plans and having expectations. Constantly adjusting them to whatever Life throws at me. It's insane to keep doing it, but the illusion of control helps me cope.

[gardenmom5]

Exactly. When mine were babies, I worked one night a week, "in case."

 

Then as our medical bills pilled up and up, I added more and more hours. Our medical bills have run into the tens of thousands every year for over a decade. No way can DH work more, and up until just recently, my teens couldn't work either. Family couldn't help.

 

And the flack from our church has been ugly at times. Everything from talks at baby showers about how working women are undermining society and people telling me that they were praying that God would restore "proper" order to our family.  There are only three women in a church of several dozen families who work. One of them thankfully is an elder's wife, but it still flares up here-and-there.

 

Frankly if it weren't for DH, I would go elsewhere to church. When we met we attended a church in the same denomination that was far more balanced. I actually go there 4-5 times a year just to refresh and enjoy being with them again, although it's about 90 minutes each way. Both of these churches are in a major metropolitan area BTW. Our current church wasn't as strong that way either when we moved here, but one of the elders comes from a Gothard background. Their family has unfortunately become a major influence, and others have since come with that mindset.

so, when are they going to start praying that you will no longer have thousands of dollars in medical bills  every year and to take up a collection to pay them so you don't have to work in order to pay them?   said with a frozen smile and hard stare tends to send them off with their tails between their legs . . .

but some can be phenomenally clueless.  

 

Yep.  Growing up I got asked the question a lot.  Didn't bother me since most of the people asking were from other places, too.  They weren't trying to exclude me, just get to know me and share experiences.

 

However, there were exceptions...

people who ask where you're from in order to exclude you can easily find other questions to ask in order to exclude you.

 

Yes, basically no matter what you say now days someone will be offended. 

 

Unless a person seems to be trying to purposely insult me I just take things in stride and assume they are just trying to be friendly. Someone who just met you won't know your pet peeves and obviously with our mobile society you are going to run into all sorts from a variety of backgrounds who have different pet peeves. The other alternative is to just say nothing at all to any stranger. That is not the society I want to live in though. 

then the strangers gets upset because no one will talk to them.  

[gardenmom5]

Heck. I'm 42 and have no idea what I want to be when I grow up.

 

I never know whether to be impressed or just think they are full of crap when I hear people of any age talk about how they know what they are going to do with their lives and what they want for the next 10-30 years.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but life has never cared one bit about my plans. Sometimes I swear Life takes it as a personal challenge to derail any plans or expectations I develop. Being forever the optimist, I still keep making plans and having expectations. Constantly adjusting them to whatever Life throws at me. It's insane to keep doing it, but the illusion of control helps me cope.

 

I always think they are simply *very* inexperienced and I have to bite the inside of my cheeks to keep from roflol.

 

after all, life is what happens when you're making other plans.  ;p

[hornblower]

I always think they are simply *very* inexperienced and I have to bite the inside of my cheeks to keep from roflol.

 

after all, life is what happens when you're making other plans.  ;p

 

I'm 49. Our life has unfolded pretty much as we planned. There have been a number of surprises but they all ended up being good surprises & opportunities. We're cautious people, the look before you leap type (hence we did live together before marriage - because breaking up from that is way easier than dealing with a divorce), and plan for many worst case scenario contingencies to buffer against circumstances. 

 

 

[Arcadia]

I always think they are simply *very* inexperienced and I have to bite the inside of my cheeks to keep from roflol.

Some people are very very driven from birth and life happen to oblige them somewhat.

[Murphy101]

I'm 49. Our life has unfolded pretty much as we planned. There have been a number of surprises but they all ended up being good surprises & opportunities. We're cautious people, the look before you leap type (hence we did live together before marriage - because breaking up from that is way easier than dealing with a divorce), and plan for many worst case scenario contingencies to buffer against circumstances.

 

 

With the exception of plans awry and living together, I would say dh and I are also cautious people who try to plan for the worse.

 

From our perspective living together without marriage would have been far riskier. If we has harbored any concern about divorce, we wouldn't have risked living together or marriage.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Murphy101

[zoobie]

Exactly. I think this sort of basic criteria evaluation goes in with the rest of responsible parenting and advice. To give the kids their best chance at stability and happiness. Marriage is a big enough deal that it deserves planning and as much getting as possible before proceeding toward that path. I personally think that begins with who we date and why, and my husband and I were both highly selective for a few particular things, including roles of spouses/values/child rearing philosophies. These things can absolutely crumble a relationship if they aren't aligned and I'd have been miserable with someone who fought me constantly on my own hopes and dreams for myself in a marriage relationship.

 

 

Aaaaanyway, it's slightly off topic but I'm not a housewife and my husband isn't an engineer because of luck - we were intentional about our life choices, including saying no to relationships and prioritizing school (him) and saying no to relationships and focusing on common views of marriage structure and values (me). We made conscious decisions from the getgo to support the outcome we wanted. And that could change in an instant, with cancer or a car crash or whatever. But the basic alignment of our hearts and minds toward rhe same goals in life and the same path for getting there was something we actively sought out and found in one another. No guarantees but we are happy for the time being :)

I agree to some extent, but luck does play somewhat of a role. Not everyone has the skill set to be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer or whatever relatively highly paid profession. Even people with the requisite skills can be derailed by unpredictable or uncontrollable circumstances. Being born in inner city Detroit? Much less likely to be able to achieve those goals than if you were born in 90210. And that's living here and now.

 

Part of what DH and I have is luck. Part is hard work, and part is a few gambles that paid off. I know people who wanted and worked and are in unfortunate situations by very little of their own choice.

[gardenmom5]

Some people are very very driven from birth and life happen to oblige them somewhat.

DH is very driven, and always carefully planned ahead, cautious, etc.

 

Life is what happens when you are making other plans.

 

Even 2dd - who has led one of the most charmed lives of any one I know, has had her surprises.

[Arcadia]

Tsuga,

 

In my subculture, the "community" would be looking at marrying equal or marrying up. Parents would be asking around for eligible matches. My lady cousins and nieces all married into families of the same or higher SES. My guy cousins and nephews married the same SES.

 

It is connections all the way from cradle to grandparents age. Someone has a single college grad daughter looking for a spouse and everyone keeps their eyes open for her.

 

My cousins wives who don't work network like the typical corporate wives. They go with their husbands to black and white functions, they hang out with other wives at country clubs. Basically a see and be seen lifestyle.

 

My subculture also expects "old fashion" chivalry from guys. From the cradle, girls don't need to do hard work because guys would step in or hire help. If a guy dump his wife for another person, the community would "bail" the lady and kids because no one wants to be the one. So its kind of thank goodness not me and lets help the person. When hubby's aunt was dumped, the aunt's exhusband was "ostracised" by the community. It is a subculture that is independent of religion.

[heartlikealion]

I think it's funny how some of us are trying to list things the woman may do so that we aren't picturing her staying home and/or not doing much. I was trying to defend the SAHW because I do think there are lots of things they could be doing, but ultimately if they are sitting around the house watching soaps and eating bon bons, is it my business or affecting me? I could binge watch Netflix and still want my spouse home before dinner is cold.

 

people who ask where you're from in order to exclude you can easily find other questions to ask in order to exclude you.

 

That's not the point. The point is some people will use this question and prefer it to less subtle/common questions.