Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[freesia]

And some on it is making career choices and being content with what happens. I grew up middle/upper middle class ( Dad a journalist From a working class background, mom an ex-diplomat, preschool teacher with upper middle/upper background) I went to a Seven Sisters school and decided to be a teacher. I married a man who was a Bucknell grad And worked for a non-profit. He wanted to be a minister or a professor. With those goals and passions we would never have gobs of money. But we love what we do. Sure I get a pang of jealousy sometimes when I can't provide all my kids desire in terms of extra curriculars and my friend spends 14,000 on just music and dance. But my kids have a great life, I love Dh and his non-lucrative passions, we are really good with our money, so we are fine. More than fine, actually.

 

There was/is no monetary reward for following any rules. The reward comes from having purpose, loving as well as you can and determining to be content (which comes from seeing your situation realistically--I don't mean allowing abuse or anything-just counting the blessings you have. Sometimes you need to look from the outside to see this.) and this can happen whether you earn money or not.

 

I am sorry for the messages you received. Don't you think, though, that you are still hearing them through the filter if the child you were? If your family can't afford food or housing and you refuse to work for no other reason than you don't want to then a case can be made for laziness. If basic needs are meant and the standard of living works for the family, then no problem with one spouse not working for a paycheck.

[QueenCat]

It surprises me when people wonder what a grown woman can do all day without work or kids....I could fill in a lifetime of days without work when my kids are grown up no problem. There is literally so much to do. As an introvert, I could do it all at home as well.

 

 

You got that right! That's a big part of why I haven't decided if I'm going back to work, too much other stuff to do. If I do go back, it'll be part time and flexible or it ain't happening.......

[marbel]

My very liberal pastor laments the same thing. I don't think it's political. And as I told him, it's not working mothers. If there aren't enough volunteers who want to commit then it's not a program we need to do. And many SAHMs don't volunteer because they have other commitments for themselves or their kids. Frankly most churches don't have enough volunteers for numerous reasons. In my church's case I think it's because we do way too many things. sorry. Hot button issue

 

Military bases, urban areas, and transient areas tend to deal very well with newcomers. Some college towns do too. Some, not so much. We recently moved from a college town. Small city/large town and a decent size college. But still very closed minded and up in your business. Sigh. So if you do end up bailing for a college town, message me so I can tell you at least one to avoid! 😂😂

 

I agree with the bolded.   In my experience, though, there are people clamoring for the program (VBS, Bible Study, small groups) but not willing to participate in implementing them.  They want 'the church' to do it. They don't realize that the church is them.    Some leave the church in disappointment because we don't do enough stuff.  But they are not willing to help.

 

Our small church does not do a lot things.  We try to limit ourselves to things we can do well.  So often though someone will come to me and ask "why doesn't the church...?" and I'll say, "sounds great, why don't you send a proposal to the elders?" and the idea drops right there.  Because really the person wants someone else to get it started after which he or she just can just show up.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

One of the uber conservative pastors in our area has lamented that 'working mothers ruin VBS".

 

 

The lady in charge of our VBS is ticked off that women don't take vacation to volunteer for it. 

And she thinks that some of the women who are home during the week take vacations out of town specifically to have an excuse not to volunteer. 

 

Sigh.

 

One of these years I'm going to ask her about all those men.  You know, the ones she doesn't judge for not volunteering, not taking vacation to volunteer, and going out of town during VBS week.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Bluegoat]

The lady in charge of our VBS is ticked off that women don't take vacation to volunteer for it. 

And she thinks that some of the women who are home during the week take vacations out of town specifically to have an excuse not to volunteer. 

 

Sigh.

 

One of these years I'm going to ask her about all those men.  You know, the ones she doesn't judge for not volunteering, not taking vacation to volunteer, and going out of town during VBS week.

 

Maybe some are!

There is a lady who is in charge of a particular ministry at our church, and I suspect one of the reasons she has trouble getting volunteers is her personality.  She is a hard worker and does a lot for others, but people find her hard to take at times.

[Murphy101]

There's a whole world of stuff I'd do if I didn't have kids or needed to work.

 

Travel

More knitting

Making home improvements

All kinds of foods to try

People to meet

Things to see

Books to read

take more naps

Go on more walks

I'd spend a lot more time with dh

Maybe for once my prayers wouldn't start and end with "for the love of God..." Or "Jesus help you child..." And the good lord might get an actual articulated prayer.

[Rosie_0801]

Point being, you can control who you marry, you can choose someone who wants whatever it is you want.  

 

That bit comes down to luck more than you might think. If you're dealing with someone who has a cluster B disorder, you're not going to find out for a long time that all those careful conversations you had were merely teaching Mr or Ms ClusterB what you wanted to hear. 

[Guest]

That bit comes down to luck more than you might think. If you're dealing with someone who has a cluster B disorder, you're not going to find out for a long time that all those careful conversations you had were merely teaching Mr or Ms ClusterB what you wanted to hear. 

 

This is definitely true.  No guarantees in life, and sometimes the most careful planning still doesn't protect from someone bound to deceive.  Thankfully most mates aren't like that, but some certainly are.  That falls under one of those unplannable life catastrophes, as far as I'm concerned!

[zoobie]

That bit comes down to luck more than you might think. If you're dealing with someone who has a cluster B disorder, you're not going to find out for a long time that all those careful conversations you had were merely teaching Mr or Ms ClusterB what you wanted to hear. 

 

Or someone who thinks they want the same things until they realize it makes them miserable. Or, like my parents' neighbors, the husband falls off the ladder and suffers a head injury. He went from being a very introverted engineer to an extroverted artist. His wife has had a very difficult time adjusting!

[Murphy101]

That bit comes down to luck more than you might think. If you're dealing with someone who has a cluster B disorder, you're not going to find out for a long time that all those careful conversations you had were merely teaching Mr or Ms ClusterB what you wanted to hear.

Or that they simply become different in many ways.

 

I'm pretty sure my dh never expected to end up married to a catholic. But that didn't happen bc I lied or misled him. If I'd married someone else, that could have ruined a marriage. In fact, if I'm being honest, if he had come to me and said he wanted us to go to a some church and he wanted to have the kid baptized and raised in it - I doubt I would have handled it as well and supportively as he has with me being RC.

 

And I know he was fine with us having kids when we got married, but I also know neither of us were imagining 11 of them either. And many couples have marriage problems related to having and raising kids.

[Guest]

Or that they simply become different in many ways.

 

I'm pretty sure my dh never expected to end up married to a catholic. But that didn't happen bc I lied or misled him. If I'd married someone else, that could have ruined a marriage. In fact, if I'm being honest, if he had come to me and said he wanted us to go to a some church and he wanted to have the kid baptized and raised in it - I doubt I would have handled it as well and supportively as he has with me being RC.

 

And I know he was fine with us having kids when we got married, but I also know neither of us were imagining 11 of them either. And many couples have marriage problems related to having and raising kids.

 

This may mean I'm type A - I actually got buy in from DH on six kids as my minimum barring health issues, before we were engaged  :thumbup1:

 

He recently told me he was all in for another half dozen since the first batch wasn't as difficult as he'd been bracing for.  We will see if he agrees when the girls become teens  :lurk5:

Edited May 26, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Bluegoat]

I really think everyone realizes that planning won't prevent every conflict, and that people sometimes even just change what they want as time goes on.

 

But I don't see how thinking ahead can really be detrimental so long as people know that.  We expect kids finishing high school to think about careers and work that way, so why not marriage and kids?

 

I think sometimes we don't want to because we overly-romantisize those kinds of relationships, and a lot of stories have this love conquers all, finds you where it will kind of message, and the relationships shown work out just fine even when there is no thought to the practical.  Even if young people know that isn't realistic, it doesn't really show them what it looks like to think about lifestyle more logically.

 

I went to university with the craziest example of this I have ever heard of.  The couple got married, and she was really into the whole romantic big wedding thing.  But they had lived together and you think would have talked about expectations.

 

Within a week of teh wedding they realized that he thought they would comtinue to live in the province and maybe even move to his hometown, that they'd have three to six kids, and she would be a SAHM at least for a while.  She wanted to finish her Phd, get a high profile job in a big city, and not have any kids.  It was kind of hard to credit.

[KungFuPanda]

I've read this entire thread. It seems to be that Tsuga has been taught some arbitrary rules by some sketchy people and was stunned to learn that they aren't universally true. You can take steps to stack the deck in your favor, but it comes down to luck. You hear a lot of "My life is the way I want it because Dh and I planned and worked hard." That's AWESOME that it worked out, but stuff happens that is out of your control. In the end, adaptability may be the thing that serves you best in life because rules and situation can change in a moment.

 

On housekeeping . . . I can't even get my brain around keeping a house running on ten minutes of housekeeping a day. Maybe ten minutes per room? In ten minutes I can empty the dishwasher and sort laundry. That doesn't even put a dent in my daily responsibilities and my family is actually fairly neat. My home is perpetually imperfect, but with only ten minutes of attention it would be dirty.

 

On finding a mate . . . I'm amazed and impressed that some of you had a checklist and interview process. I was hit by a bolt of lightening and was absolutely consumed by an obsessive, romantic, passionate love at a very young age. I built my life around that man and I'm damn lucky that we remain a great match 26 years later. We didn't live together and dated several years before getting married, so it wasn't rushed or impulsive. Still, I find it completely alien and even very impressive that people are walking about with level heads arranging their own marriages.

[frogger]

When I was a DINK I cleaned the entire house, including dusting, vacuuming, etc before noon on Saturday and had the rest of the weekend to relax. Really when no one is home not much happens to it. When someone is home doing extra cooking or decorating or whatever then there is more to it. Our vehicles were spotless, our paperwork organized, and I had lots of free time. Now everything feels impossible because there are people constantly doing stuff here and piled on top of each other.

 

That isn't ten minutes but it certainly isn't anything like now.

Edited May 27, 2016 by frogger

[Carol in Cal.]

I've read this entire thread. It seems to be that Tsuga has been taught some arbitrary rules by some sketchy people and was stunned to learn that they aren't universally true.

You know, I am not sure that this was fair.

 

I think that society as a whole pretty much preached that stuff, and that Tsuga said, OK, I'll go for it, and she did.  I respect her for that.  And then she noticed that the stuff isn't nearly universal, and decided to ask the hive about it.  I respect her for that, too, because the hive is quite varied in capability and really smart as a whole, and represents a lot of thoughtful points of view.

 

So overall, I respect Tsuga, and in particular have really enjoyed this discussion.

 

I tried to make the case (several pages ago) that the former 'verities' are gone, and nothing has really replaced them, but that previous 'verities' have also come and gone with stunning rapidity in the last 60-70 years or so.  I think it's reasonable for anyone who has been paying attention to have either whiplash or anxiety at this point. 

[ElizabethB]

If you can do all housework duties in 10 minutes a day, write a book or make a video series about how you do it to and I will buy it and the rest of the hive will and millions of other folks, and you will be able to live off your book/DVD proceeds!!

[shage]

On finding a mate . . . I'm amazed and impressed that some of you had a checklist and interview process. I was hit by a bolt of lightening and was absolutely consumed by an obsessive, romantic, passionate love at a very young age. I built my life around that man and I'm damn lucky that we remain a great match 26 years later. We didn't live together and dated several years before getting married, so it wasn't rushed or impulsive. Still, I find it completely alien and even very impressive that people are walking about with level heads arranging their own marriages.

I laughed at this.

 

Um, yeah.

 

I met dh when out to lunch in a strange city with a cousin and her then fiancé's friends. Within hours of meeting, he circled back to pick me up for a date. This was pre cellphone days, which meant he had to go through the motel switchboard to track me down. We did wait 2.5 years to marry, living in separate states. But it is astonishing how little we mapped out. Because, eh. We were in love. Everything else was details.

[KungFuPanda]

You know, I am not sure that this was fair.

 

I think that society as a whole pretty much preached that stuff, and that Tsuga said, OK, I'll go for it, and she did. I respect her for that. And then she noticed that the stuff isn't nearly universal, and decided to ask the hive about it. I respect her for that, too, because the hive is quite varied in capability and really smart as a whole, and represents a lot of thoughtful points of view.

 

So overall, I respect Tsuga, and in particular have really enjoyed this discussion.

 

I tried to make the case (several pages ago) that the former 'verities' are gone, and nothing has really replaced them, but that previous 'verities' have also come and gone with stunning rapidity in the last 60-70 years or so. I think it's reasonable for anyone who has been paying attention to have either whiplash or anxiety at this point.

It was an observation, not a judgement. I love hearing Tsuga's perspective and this has been a really interesting thread. It just seems that she's had more than her fair share of unkindness in life and I can see how her perceptions were formed, then shattered when faced with a world of people who were dealt very different hands. No judgement on her at all. Life smacks us all in different ways.

[gardenmom5]

You know what?  I don't care.  Some people are butts and the particular form of their buttness seems nothing more than a detail.

 

People who are not butts should feel free to ask normal questions that help you get to know people better.

 

 

I grew up thinking most all people were butts.  (my peers, teachers -male and female, and *especially* women.  especially.)

you know what -  I have learned life  is much more pleasant if you give people the benefit of the doubt.  some are just idiots being clueless and really didn't mean to be offensive. some are dealing with their own issues and oblivious to those around them.

it's more pleasant to give the benefit of the doubt and not assume someone is a butt until you have adequate evidence they really are one.   life is more pleasant when we choose to not take offense when someone is clueless or being a butt.

 

besides - not taking offense at someone deliberately being a butt tends to annoy them. ;p  (and keeps your bp down.)  win-win.

 

dh used to have so much fun toying (by being excruciatingly cheerful and positive) with my grandmother.  (e.g. your oncologist said you are cancer free after five years - you must be so happy!.  she wasn't.  what would she moan and groan about now?)   she couldn't stand talking to him.

 

eta: it can be confusing when you grow up with warped viewpoints.  you have to UNlearn what you have learned, and then learn what is actually correct.  it can even lead to anxiety attacks to go against it.  then, you can think - oh that was wrong, and this is correct.  or am I imagining things? - and you NEED an impartial outsider to be able to give feedback and either support or correct the thinking.

Edited May 27, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Guest]

I've been thinking about this thread all day as I was out and about doing All The Errands.  (I hate leaving my house, so these things have to happen all at once...)

 

Anyway, it seems to me that the original post and follow-ons by the OP have a lot of focus on what one values and how one comes to have those values, even going so far as to say that society sets the values and it's the world we live in so it is better to teach her kids how to live according to those values.  (I've sort of smashed together a bunch of separate comments to make that summary of what I "heard.")  This bothers me, because I think it is a road to great unhappiness for all concerned, and because I also believe that following the mob ("this is how the world operates") is how the world starts to come apart.  Or just flat out comes apart.  I am not saying I have not fallen for this from time to time--I have--but I also note that the decisions I've made based on that criteria have been my worst and most costly.  

 

Another thing that struck me was the discussion about planning/not-planning.  I've always felt like an idiot when asked the question "What are your 3-year, 5-year, 10-year goals?"  I've never had any anyone wanted to hear about, considering what they were really asking.  They wanted to hear things like this:  "I want to be a senior group manager..."  "I want to have three patents."  "I want to be married and have 3 kids..."  Etc.  For me, at least for the past 20 years, my answer has always had a lot more to do with who I AM (not a role I play, not an achievement or status or economic station).  And then, it is really hard to separate it out into 3, 5, and 10-year goals...because it is pretty much the same at each of those points.  Be kinder, be at peace, be ... be... be..." sort of statements.  Most of which I am not sharing here.  :0)  

 

HAD I thought very hard about the typical 3, 5, 10-year goals, I know that for the most part I would have completely undershot what has happened in my life, at least in the areas that those questions are usually aimed at.  I got lucky in those areas.  BUT my true 3, 5, 10-year goals didn't really change.  I still want to be kinder, I *still* want to be more like Christ...those goals hold true.  And of course, they are based in what I value...not much in what society values, that's for sure.  Most of the people walking around in my town would find the way I live ... to be of no value.  But they do not share my values, nor do they dictate theirs to me.  :0)

 

And the third thing I thought about was a comment that a pretty smart friend of mine made a few years ago.  She did a LOT of reading on cities, city planning for human living, city "personalities" and so on.  Based on her comments, I think it is possible that regions have a certain impact on one's values.  My friend was able to choose where she lived, not based on job necessity.  She lived in several big cities, but settled on one in particular because of its "personality."  The remark I remember was that there was one city that was all about your power; the other was all about how much you earned; the other was about how spendy you were...and she chose none of these.  But I thought this was interesting, and maybe it plays a little into this conversation.  I'm not sure that my own attitude about value adoption didn't come from growing up in the Wild West.  :0)

[Guest]

I grew up thinking most all people were butts.  (my peers, teachers -male and female, and *especially* women.  especially.)

you know what -  I have learned life  is much more pleasant if you give people the benefit of the doubt.  some are just idiots being clueless and really didn't mean to be offensive. some are dealing with their own issues are clueless to those around them.

 

:::snip:::

 

"Be kind; everyone you meet is fighting a great battle."  Variously attributed to scholars, philosophers and saints.

 

The other benefit of your chosen path is it keeps YOU from turning into a horse's backside.

[Joker]

I've read this entire thread. It seems to be that Tsuga has been taught some arbitrary rules by some sketchy people and was stunned to learn that they aren't universally true. You can take steps to stack the deck in your favor, but it comes down to luck. You hear a lot of "My life is the way I want it because Dh and I planned and worked hard." That's AWESOME that it worked out, but stuff happens that is out of your control. In the end, adaptability may be the thing that serves you best in life because rules and situation can change in a moment.

 

On housekeeping . . . I can't even get my brain around keeping a house running on ten minutes of housekeeping a day. Maybe ten minutes per room? In ten minutes I can empty the dishwasher and sort laundry. That doesn't even put a dent in my daily responsibilities and my family is actually fairly neat. My home is perpetually imperfect, but with only ten minutes of attention it would be dirty.

 

On finding a mate . . . I'm amazed and impressed that some of you had a checklist and interview process. I was hit by a bolt of lightening and was absolutely consumed by an obsessive, romantic, passionate love at a very young age. I built my life around that man and I'm damn lucky that we remain a great match 26 years later. We didn't live together and dated several years before getting married, so it wasn't rushed or impulsive. Still, I find it completely alien and even very impressive that people are walking about with level heads arranging their own marriages.

 

:iagree: 

 

Dh and I did had talks but we were married four months after meeting so we couldn't possibly be certain about all of it. I was 21 and he was 25. That was just it for us. We're lucky 18 years later we're still strong and have weathered our changes and difficulties together. My FIL proposed on the first date with MIL and they've been married 54 years.

 

Talking and planning can really only do so much and in the end it guarantees nothing. We honestly didn't think I would still be at home with both dds being teens and in ps yet here we are - and we're happy with it. Dh hopes I don't have to ever go back to work unless it is what I want. I don't see that happening unless we really need the money.

[Guest]

:::snip:::

 

This makes sense to me in the context of a household in which either one person is disabled or they have children, so the person not working outside the home is really maximizing their effort for the family.

 

I guess it depends on what a family wants maximized, what the values and sensibilities are within that family.  It really doesn't come down to money as the only measure.   

 

It does not make sense in the context of a fully functional adult whose main job is to do chores that take me all of 10 minutes every night. I have great credit, the house works, and I have time for hobbies. I am not really sure how a SAHW is really working that much... particularly as a good deal of our bills are paid auto deposit out of our paychecks so the earning spouse would be taking care of those.

 

You sound like a pretty remarkable person, and I am glad that this works for you.  Not everyone has the same energy, or the same interest, or adequate health to do these things the way you do them.  Or the need to do them this way, or the interest in doing them this way.  I myself used to be a pretty remarkable person as far as keeping all the plates spinning--a lot of plates....and then suddenly, I wasn't so good at it anymore.  That was a pretty big crisis point in my life, and I had ask some very hard questions and the answers demanded a lot of change from me.  

 

If you don't like the responses here, that's OK.  If you don't like the teachings you had growing up, that's OK.  It's something you have to come to yourself, so you can live a life YOU find valuable.    

 

Tsuga, I quoted your response to me from your first multi-quote; just to put this in context...sometimes discussions get so multi-threaded I end up all confused.  My responses are in the blue, above.  

[snickerplum]

This thread reminds me of:

 

https://youtu.be/Dqn01vCQnUs

That's the ringtone I have for dh's desk phone at work! :-) Edited May 27, 2016 by snickerplum

[HS Mom in NC]

My husband and I dated for 4 months before we were engaged at 19 and 25.  We were engaged for 2 months before we married at 20 and 26.  In those 4 months time we covered parenting, finances, lifestyle and religion/philosophy in great detail. We knew what we were looking for and that we were compatible.  12 years later he had a crisis of faith, which affected every aspect of our lives, but we adapted to it. 

 

No, you can't plan for everything but it's terribly foolish to commit to someone who you know is a wildcard or who is objectively a bad match. It's a risk no matter what, but there' s a big different between taking a risk and taking a calculated risk.

There are certain behaviors, habits and decision that have a high probability of of bad results.  There are certain behaviors, habits and decisions that have a high probability of good results. There are no guarantees, but there are safer bets and riskier bets. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[TammyS]

 I have learned life  is much more pleasant if you give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

This is what I'm saying.  If I ask someone where they are from, or some other apparently now-offensive question, in the process of trying to get to know someone and they take offense, chances are very high that I'm going to change my mind about wanting to know them.  They are too much work.

[TammyS]

I've been thinking about this thread all day as I was out and about doing All The Errands.  (I hate leaving my house, so these things have to happen all at once...)

 

 

You know, I've been thinking about this all day, too.  And yours is the 2nd or 3rd post I read that mentioned that.  I'm starting to get this image in my head of all these hive members, all over the place, like little dots on a map, thinking about this thread in different places as we go about our day.

[Murphy101]

I really think everyone realizes that planning won't prevent every conflict, and that people sometimes even just change what they want as time goes on.

 

But I don't see how thinking ahead can really be detrimental so long as people know that. We expect kids finishing high school to think about careers and work that way, so why not marriage and kids?

 

I think sometimes we don't want to because we overly-romantisize those kinds of relationships, and a lot of stories have this love conquers all, finds you where it will kind of message, and the relationships shown work out just fine even when there is no thought to the practical. Even if young people know that isn't realistic, it doesn't really show them what it looks like to think about lifestyle more logically.

 

I went to university with the craziest example of this I have ever heard of. The couple got married, and she was really into the whole romantic big wedding thing. But they had lived together and you think would have talked about expectations.

 

Within a week of teh wedding they realized that he thought they would comtinue to live in the province and maybe even move to his hometown, that they'd have three to six kids, and she would be a SAHM at least for a while. She wanted to finish her Phd, get a high profile job in a big city, and not have any kids. It was kind of hard to credit.

It's not that I don't think people should try to think ahead. It's that there's a lot that you just can't picture until it comes up. And what you think beforehand might be nothing like you thought it would be. Dh and I talked about everything under the sun when we were dating. And we still do.

 

But I totally agree with you that it boggles my mind how many people just don't talk. Apparently about anything. Ever.

 

I know many couples miserably married and often divorced who don't seem to talk. About anything. Not mundane stuff of life, not big stuff, not about what they think or feel or want or dream. I have no idea what they do when they are together, but apparently sharing conversation isn't it.

[katilac]

 

 

On housekeeping . . . I can't even get my brain around keeping a house running on ten minutes of housekeeping a day. Maybe ten minutes per room? In ten minutes I can empty the dishwasher and sort laundry. That doesn't even put a dent in my daily responsibilities and my family is actually fairly neat.  

 

 

I can empty the dishwasher OR sort laundry in ten minutes, so kudos to you. 

[TammyS]

 

 

Talking and planning can really only do so much and in the end it guarantees nothing.

 

True, but it can do some important things.  It can get agreement on your core values, on things you will not do, and things you must do.  It's stunning to me how many people get divorced 3-4 years into marriage over a core value issue that should have been 1 discussion before they got married to realize it was never going to work.

[Joker]

True, but it can do some important things.  It can get agreement on your core values, on things you will not do, and things you must do.  It's stunning to me how many people get divorced 3-4 years into marriage over a core value issue that should have been 1 discussion before they got married to realize it was never going to work.

 

Yes, but even core values change. Dh and I both have had big changes and life events. We've just continued to talk them out. We don't always change together but we're able to find common ground and respect. 

[Murphy101]

True, but it can do some important things. It can get agreement on your core values, on things you will not do, and things you must do. It's stunning to me how many people get divorced 3-4 years into marriage over a core value issue that should have been 1 discussion before they got married to realize it was never going to work.

I've seen this a lot too and find it equally confounding.

 

People thinking they can change the other or that things won't change are often a problem too.

[Tsuga]

She probably does the crap that I should be doing. You know, like having a hot meal on the table when dh walks in the door. A clean house. Laundry not only clean but folded and put away. Or I dunno, maybe she orders take out lol. I really probably don't know much more than you do, though. I doubt he shares everything.

 

We have hot meals on the table by 7:30. We have a clean house at least 50% of the time with four kids, with just a couple it's immaculate. We have clean laundry folded and put away about 50% of the time.

 

Maybe he actually has a big ego and thinks that he can be the sole provider and the idea of her working = he didn't provide enough. Really, do we know how he feels? All we know is his wife wants to move and it's going to be inconvenient for travel reasons?

 

I am trying to understand why someone would feel that way, though. There are a lot of possibilities. He doesn't strike me as that type at all--we come from similar backgrounds. I think he's also torn. Please keep in mind this is in an office in which this guy is getting daily advice from a coworker to make his babies now because when she had a baby after 30 they took her uterus as a souvenir. Yes. But he's reluctant.

 

I kind of feel like she's getting a bad rep based on lack of the full story.

 

Honestly, everyone at the office who's met her really likes her. I haven't met her. I am asking about ONE THING about their life choices, not suggesting that somehow she's a horrible person. I mean my partner could say any number of things about me and all of them would be true and they would all lead any sane person to the conclusion that I'm not perfect. I'm sure she's lovely. She has demands. She has needs. She has a plan to meet these needs without a full time job... whatever. Just because I don't get it doesn't mean I am looking down on her. I don't look up to her but I don't look down on her. I've been in some crappy situations myself and she's doing fine.

 

[Tsuga]

 

As for why she doesn't work, it really sounds like this may be more your issue than hers. Why do you care so much? It sounds like you resent her for not having to work, and this is negatively coloring your impression of her.

 

It sounds like that because that's exactly it.

 

I can't believe someone doesn't have to work and that's a socially acceptable option that someone would blithely mention at work as if it were not something shocking. That's why I'm asking, I'm saying, I have a negative impression of this and I'd like to improve my impression so please explain how it works, what is the value in this.

[Tsuga]

Her situation doesn't really have any bearing on yours.

 

Knowing the full range of options has a great bearing on my kids' lives.

 

She gets to stay home because that's the way her lot in life landed and you don't cause that's what you drew. Sometimes life sucks.

 

I refuse to accept that "sometimes life sucks". As long as you are healthy you can make your life better by working hard and being clever.

 

It doesn't mean either of you are doing right or wrong. There's no rule that means success in life. There are certain rules we may choose to play by because they define us as a person. There are certain things that can help overall but "time and chance happens to all".

 

But we don't retire based on chance. We don't get treated at the hospital based on chance. We have to take that 10% or 1% or 50% of life that is work and thinking and maximize it.

Fwiw I grew up with almost the opposite rhetoric. Good mums and good wives stay home and care for their families. Some of the friends are equally looking at those with successful careers and supportive husbands going "why does she get to do that and I'm cooking and cleaning toilets". Some of them are studying to change it. Some have always had careers.

 

I really can't emphasize enough that I get staying home for kids. I mean this is a homeschooling forum... I am not here for no reason though it didn't work out for me. I think caring for a family is incredibly important. Caring for a husband alone isn't that time consuming, not a well husband of course.

The risk of divorce is definitely a trade off. In my mums generation the risk of divorce was much lower but there was probably the risk of a quietly unhappy marriage.

 

Hopefully quietly. :( Ours looked quietly unhappy from the outside but it was hell on the inside for me.

 

Marriage is basically a business relationship, not a personal partnership, and only someone earning actual money has real value.  Both need to contribute financially for the scales of this business partnership to be balanced.

 

 

This was phrased as a paraphrase question, not the opinion of the person who posted this statement.

 

To clarify: No, in my partnerships, I thought it was not an exchange precisely because we both put in 100% of what we could to support the family, so that the marriage was about love alone. There was no money in it for the most part, and when that did start going back and forth, it wasn't good though I never even talked about it. The attitude above is exactly how I see the relationship if one person is supporting the couple and the other person is not: that there is a one-way exchange there. That is what I'm asking people exchange. Even as a gift, what is the gift of love from the one not working (paying bills not being considered substantial work to my mind)? If the love is equal, why aren't the gifts? Just a random coincidence that the man happens to have a ton of money? Seems strange to me to think about it that way.

 

I never took a penny so he knew I was in it for love.

[Carol in Cal.]

It sounds like that because that's exactly it.

 

I can't believe someone doesn't have to work and that's a socially acceptable option that someone would blithely mention at work as if it were not something shocking. That's why I'm asking, I'm saying, I have a negative impression of this and I'd like to improve my impression so please explain how it works, what is the value in this.

I think that there are many kinds of work, and that paid work does not define value.

One of the things that gives her value is that she is a created human being, in the image of God.

Another thing is how she uses her talents and capabilities.  And I don't know about that, but I do know that defining that as just someone gets paid for is far too narrow.

 

Something to consider--most people want to retire sometime.  When they do, do they lose their value?  Of course not.

[Guest]

It sounds like that because that's exactly it.

 

I can't believe someone doesn't have to work and that's a socially acceptable option that someone would blithely mention at work as if it were not something shocking. That's why I'm asking, I'm saying, I have a negative impression of this and I'd like to improve my impression so please explain how it works, what is the value in this.

That sound is my jaw dropping. Wowza.

[Tsuga]

My responses are in blue, though I know these comments weren't addressed to me.

 

 

Three parts because there are limits to multi-quote, it turns out.

 

Lucy Stoner:

 

 

Well I do apologize for the offensive joke, but I was not trying to suggest that. Clearly he is not paying her to have sex.

 

 

 

Why... because then he can just leave and she has nothing. If it's a gift he can stop giving at any moment and she's screwed. That's why. It's an incredibly high-risk proposition for the woman.

 

Isn't it high risk to be a SAHM, too? What if the man just leaves? You might get child support but are you really better off than the SAHW?

 

Yeah but it's worth it for your kids. You take that risk for your kids.

 

But more importantly, I was more thinking from the man's point of view. Say you can have a wife. One of them cooks, cleans, pays bills, and works full time or part time. She pays for the vacations, she enables you to breathe at work. Or you can have another wife which does exactly the same thing but no money.

 

Hahaha are we assuming that all working wives are like this? Or is this just to say guys should keep looking when they meet a woman that doesn't want to work/doesn't mind staying home because surely someone like the above exists and would make a better mate? That's totally debatable.

 

I never said "all". I'm saying, suppose you have this choice, two women who are both able to do things... like myself working, myself not working. Or whatever. All else being very nearly equal, which lifestyle would you choose?

 

First question: No, volunteering is not work. If volunteering was work then I'd be living in a mansion. Volunteering is something you should enjoy. If you aren't having fun you should not volunteer. I used to believe differently but then I learned that people looked at my sacrifice in the most humiliating to me way possible: They thought I did it because I couldn't earn money. They thought that I was just unable to do anything to care for myself, so I had to volunteer. So when I needed help, when I needed an income, they mocked me. "Well you knew the choices you were making."

 

That is a shame. But that is illogical to me and sounds like their problem. One I wouldn't have hesitated to correct if I had worked side by side with them. They should be humiliated.

 

Well the world is full of people like that, too many to correct.

 

I mean I guess whenever we get socialism or whatever, which would be great, it gets to be work. But no, charity is not work in our society. If it were work, then people would reward it. But they don't. It has no value other than to the giver and the receiver, and the receiver has no money to pay.

 

I disagree. I don't have to receive anything to appreciate other people's work. You could stand two firefighters in front of me. One paid. One unpaid (volunteer). I'm not going to ask them their income and then determine if they are valuable to society based on their answer. Or based on whether or not I've ever had to call a fight fighter. Come on.

 

But if you're a volunteer firefighter who didn't get a raise at his paid job and you go and ask for help when you are sick because the plan doesn't cover your issue, you will see how society values that. You will see becuase they will say "Well why did he choose to volunteer when he could have been working? I worked my whole life and I wanted to volunteer but I didn't and now I'm supposed to pay taxes for his health care?" You will see then.

 

As for the second question: I guess I think everyone gets a retirement. At least in this generation. In the next generation, we can already see it: there are no retirements, there is just disability or work. Waiting around to work (however much you want a baby) is not the same as resting after 25 years of work.

 

 

Mothers work very hard and I don't view that arrangement as a gift arrangement, nor was I the one who suggested that a husband's provision was a gift. That was how it was explained to me.

 

Not all moms are alike. Not all wives are alike. Let's not act like all moms work hard and all wives don't.

 

Okay, fair enough, but come on, it is nearly impossible to imagine the amount of work that a baby creates, whereas nearly all of us have lived the life of caring for a small home without children in it. These things are simply incomparable.

 

I appreciate this list because you have really summed up many of the reasons listed here:

 

• TTC and worried about starting a job and then getting pregnant.
• Disabled or ill (i.e. working to the best of her ability which is to say very little or not at all)
• Working at a job that she is somehow embarrassed/ashamed/hesitant to mention, for any number of reasons, such as it being illicit, or being likely to fail, or somesuch;
• Unable to work for non-health-related reasons.

TTC kind of confuses me because I thought it would be terrible luck to quit my job until I was 6 months in, but I can see how if you had to quit for bedrest once and you want it to happen, you'd get stuck in that cycle. TTC, bedrest, not pregnant :( , TTC, bedrest, and so on.

 

However, I do want to point out that the entire list is either "can't work" or "is actually working but you don't know it". None of those things are along the lines of "Not working, could work, chooses not to." And that is more the scenario I'm wondering about. I realize that a great many men and women aren't working for any number of reasons beyond their control. Many of them would like to work.

 

 

I will clarify once again that I'm not talking about SAHMs. There is enough work in there for a million years worth of salaries. I am talking about SAHWs. People who have no children and who do not work, some of whom presumably could work. Though, it could be that all of them actually are disabled and they just pass it off as a luxury lifestyle.

 

Why do you insist on creating this huge divide here? Maybe some SAHWs do as much if not more than some SAHMs? I suck at running a home. I'm sure there are some SAHWs that do a way better job than me. Kid in tow or not, things like laundry, dishes, errands, and meals need addressed.

 

But meals, laundry, dishes and errands for TWO ADULTS are so easy to complete it's comical. I don't have to pay someone $15/hr to come watch my house while I go to the DMV if I need to update my license. The reason is... caring for a house, just letting it be, is not a lot of work at all. You might pay a cleaner, but how much cleaning do you need to do?

 

Do you think he works because he loves that, or that he works because it is the best job he can have AND support a family?

 

Finally... there is nothing more to life than money when everything can be taken from you in a matter of months, and you have children to feed. Then money is everything. Everyone says that money isn't everything but then when it comes time to give, who's giving?

 

?

 

 

Yeah, but what a sweet deal. What I'm wondering is how does that work. My partner is working, so I'm working. He got a promotion so I got a promotion. How does my identity as a whole person, an adult human, fit into that? Did he also sit on the couch picking out paint colors all day? Did he also go to the gym because I went to the gym?

 

It doesn't really make sense to me.

 

I am under the impression you wouldn't ever accept that role even if it sounds sweet from the outside. I feel like you'd label yourself lazy and no amount of volunteering would fix your mindset because volunteering has been tainted for you. Or maybe I'm way off.

I'm capable of changing my mind. I work for a company I NEVER would have thought I'd work for. Because I got enough feedback about my previous career to realize that what I had been told before was wrong. You're right that right now, I cannot entertain that idea successfully. However, if I could see how it could work, how value is really provided, how rights are truly equal, how people are really behaving as equals, then I could do it. Most importantly, though: my kids will not be burdened with the ethic I was burdened with. I tell them what they need to hear to succeed. So much is too late for me. But it's not too late for them.

 

 

Because your spouse is your team mate? If you work on a group project, we all know that maybe so and so did more work than so and so, but at the end of the day if everyone is happy with the grade and division of labor, does it matter?

 

If you work on group projects for years and years and one person continually falls behind, it really does matter. A lot. And that will show up in where the kids go to college, whether you have health care as an elderly person, everything. Where you live. What you eat. Everything is determined by your teamwork. Everybody notices.

 

So who IS stealing? I never stole. I was a child, I got benefits because my dad didn't give us anything. Was I stealing from a child whose father made a lot of money? I sure felt like it.

 

And if it's not balanced, what happens when one person leaves?

 

Some people would rather cross that bridge when they get there than worry about a bridge they may never see?

 

There's no bridge there. It's actually like a huge cliff and you have a parachute or not.

 

Why are some women worthy of a million dollars of support over their lives and others worthless? You see them, both maintain their figures, both presumably try to please their men in bed, both cook... but one of them is worth a lifetime of free money and the other is worth nothing. She "has" to work. Her man left.

 

 

I know that's what my ex-husband thought but I refused to quit my job because I thought that was kind of crazy. Maybe he would have loved me if I had quit, though. Maybe he would not have left if I would have needed him more. Considering that he cleaned out our bank account and told me he was leaving, I shudder to think what would have happened if he just wanted control but it wouldn't have "tamed" him so to speak.

 

You don't have to answer, but I was wondering if this happened before or after you had kids? It seems like you show a lot of concern for a stranded SAHW but not necessarily the SAHM? I mean, if you were worried then I don't know why you wouldn't flinch at moms staying at home.

 

I'm concerned for the kids but I believe the value the SAHM delivers to the kids staying at home and caring for them is so high that it is worth the risk for her. After all, there is a risk with daycare too. Creating the perfectest meal ever created at 6 p.m. on. the. dot. for a grown man (or woman) does not seem to me to be worth the risk. Having your two year old in your arms nursing does. Because children do benefit from a mom around more, even if she works, it's not like they could just be there alone, either. Someone has to care for the kids no matter what. Whereas you can just say "dinner at 7:30 and the salad is coming out of a bag" and nobody dies. Literally if someone is not caring for the kids, they can actually die. And it's a lot of work to keep them from dying. But the SAHW is at most providing an hour of necessary work per day and beyond that, what is being done that is needed?

 

Re: My ex: Before and after kids, though I took quite a light load after kids and took maternity leave for their sake and worked from home. He did NOT say that before we were married. We agreed I'd work and take maternity leave and find a kid-friendly working arrangement, which at the time I did.

 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Tsuga

[KungFuPanda]

It sounds like that because that's exactly it.

 

I can't believe someone doesn't have to work and that's a socially acceptable option that someone would blithely mention at work as if it were not something shocking. That's why I'm asking, I'm saying, I have a negative impression of this and I'd like to improve my impression so please explain how it works, what is the value in this.

It's a valid choice. They are married adults and have the right to choose how to live. If their household has enough money to function it doesn't really matter who goes where during the day or who works harder doing what. Some people just do not keep score that way. I'm guessing they'd be shocked that you're shocked.

 

Single income households exist. It doesn't really matter if the income comes from two school teachers or one engineer. There has never been one right way to do it. It seems this couple has the financial freedom to do what they want. It's not actually shocking and it IS socially acceptable. They're not doing anything wrong.

[Tsuga]

That sound is my jaw dropping. Wowza.

 

That's so funny because it is your attitude towards work that is exactly the sort of attitude that formed a change in my opinion of myself.

 

 

The attitudes about health care, the attitudes about welfare, about education. They made my fingers go cold, my stomach churn. I was just sick thinking about what you must think of someone like me, poor, working in charity, to help poor people get charity and a free education, as one of many examples. You of all posters, I would have felt would get this. Because you repeatedly state that things must be earned. That those who weren't earners were cheating somehow.

 

I felt positively sick about it, like my whole world--like I'd go to society and ask for help and they would say, 'Well why did you choose that? You are so entitled!' Because I hadn't worked the right job.

 

Right now, I can tell you this: nobody in this country can look at me and say I do not deserve to be here. I have a good job, I volunteer, we are finally homeowners, I own my car, I paid for my own education. I feel finally in life, that I'm getting to the point that if I met someone like you in person I could hold my head high.

 

And now this is Wowza?

 

Why? Why do some not have to work?

 

[Guest]

That's so funny because it is your attitude towards work that is exactly the sort of attitude that formed a change in my opinion of myself.

 

 

The attitudes about health care, the attitudes about welfare, about education. They made my fingers go cold, my stomach churn. I was just sick thinking about what you must think of someone like me, poor, working in charity, to help poor people get charity and a free education, as one of many examples. You of all posters, I would have felt would get this. Because you repeatedly state that things must be earned. That those who weren't earners were cheating somehow.

 

I felt positively sick about it, like my whole world--like I'd go to society and ask for help and they would say, 'Well why did you choose that? You are so entitled!' Because I hadn't worked the right job.

 

Right now, I can tell you this: nobody in this country can look at me and say I do not deserve to be here. I have a good job, I volunteer, we are finally homeowners, I own my car, I paid for my own education. I feel finally in life, that I'm getting to the point that if I met someone like you in person I could hold my head high.

 

And now this is Wowza?

 

Why? Why do some not have to work?

 

You're importing a whole lot of bias into this. I do absolutely believe in the value of hard work and independence. I also believe in a social safety net for those who cannot take care of themselves. And individual freedom in how one manages their lives. A person who isn't employed outside the home is not in the same universe as someone who has ability, skill, and health and takes from the taxes of society instead of working - you are making category errors. In your calculation, to be accurate, a housewife is essentially employed by her husband and carried as a member of the family like a dependent child or relative. That's their free choice and completely valid. If they were being subsidized by someone else's family without need then you'd see me ask questions but a family making choices about their own division of labor and commerce? That's at the core of what I believe strengthens a society. Strong families living in a way that bolsters their dreams.

 

People like 'me' are not the ones you answer to for your life choices. Your thinking on this is unhealthy and demeaning, all at once. You don't get to lay that dysfunction on me or anyone else you presume to know everything about.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[KungFuPanda]

Another thought . . . Wouldn't it be financially easier to get by on one income if you have no kids? Kids are expensive! Without them, what do you really need? A home, some clothes, some food, health insurance, a car, retirement benefits, etc . . . One job can buy that in most of the country. Two people can live almost as cheaply as one. It seems that SAHW is much easier to afford than SAHM.

[Ausmumof3]

I guess all I can do is say what the stay at home wives I know of do.

 

They garden. Growing veges takes a fair amount of time to do well. They cook. Their meals aren't salad in a bag. They bake home made bread and cake and biscuits. They cook from scratch and preserve the home grown produce. They sew. They don't throw away things that can be fixed. They help mums with babies and special needs kids. They make cards and mail them to sick people and they visit sick people in hospital or at home with meals. They take care of the gifts to the family members, either making or buying. They chase up on cheaper plans for insurance and all the other stuff. They wash dishes by hand. They cut foam and fabric and refurbish their furniture or sand and polish and all these things save money. they save less now than in the past probably but they still save. Bagged salad here is $3 a bag - so that would be $21 a week. Prepping a weeks salad from some basic ingredients is maybe $10. Every time I patch a pair of jeans or sew up a hole instead of replacing it I save $15 or $20.

 

Compared to the cost saving this stuff provided prior to industrialisation it's not much but it adds up.

 

I can only talk about what I experience and see. This isn't probably true for every Sahw but these are the things done.

 

You can add economic value to the family unit by reducing costs not only by increasing income. And arguably it's a better model for the environment overall to reduce consumption.

[JulieA97]

I think its not as black and white as you feel it is- earn money working=you have value, don't earn money working=you have no value and society looks down on you. That is not the case.

 

If a couple is struggling to put food on the table and the wife refuses to work because she doesn't want to, then yes, maybe it would be a good idea for her to find a job so no one starves. But in the case you mentioned, they appear to be doing fine. They have structured their life so that they are able to live on one income. There could be any number of reasons she is not working, this thread has listed several. The thing is, its a valid and socially acceptable choice for her and her husband to make together. It is not shocking or illegal or stealing from him. They don't owe anyone any explanations of their decision. It is no ones business. Even if you don't understand or find value in what she does, her husband finds value in her and is happy with the arrangement. Who cares what she does all day? Only she and her husband have the right to determine if what she does is enough. Unless you are by her side every minute of every day, you have no way of knowing what she does with her time.

 

Of course you have value and deserve to be here! Not because you have a job, a house and own a car. Not a single one of those things determines your value. Your value is that you are a human being created by God. Are you saying that people in 3rd world countries that don't own a home don't deserve to be here? You can hold your head high even if you didn't have a single one of those things and I am truly, truly sorry that anyone ever made you feel less than immensely valuable.

[Tsuga]

I just don't understand why it bothers you, Tsuga. That sometimes women ( and men ) don't go out to paid work when, theoretically, they could.

 

I guess I would understand if you were worried about the non-working spouse being left high and dry in the case of death, divorce or other catastrophe. Not working is a risk for a lot of women.

 

But why does the mere fact that some people don't work when they could do so bother you ? Especially if your tax dollars aren't involved ?

 

If it's less being bothered and more not understanding - oh well, people do things I don't understand literally every single day. If it's not impacting on me, it's (probably) not my business so I don't try to figure it out. Trying to work out other people's motivations, in the absence of the other person - and even with the person in front of you, there are no guarantees! - is a mug's game.

 

The answer to your italicized question is that life (and the political and economic situations we live in) are inequitable. So some people have to work all the time, and some people don't have to work at all.

 

Because it's not a level playing field. So you have to work your guts out and she doesn't. Because that's the way the cookie crumbles. For the same reason I'm going to be working till I die and some twenty year olds out there have trust funds.

I think the main motivation for me is, I realized at one point that I could either give in to fate or make fate work for me. And I was tired but I decided, screw it, I won't give in.

 

So I decided to look beyond the core values of my childhood. There were all these people preaching a gospel of self reliance, desert, "I built this." I mean Romney, not to get political, but he is not a bad guy. Whatever your beliefs about his policy proposals he never struck me as a jerk. I felt really sad that someone like him, possible president, would look at someone like me, asking for help for my kids to go to college, and say, "Hey lady, I built this! You didn't. I don't have to share." But millions of people voted for that. And having returned to the us after decades abroad, it was a wake up call. They don't care that you've been helping. You have to get building. That is how you will succeed.

 

Okay.

 

I can do that.

 

And as a woman, I don't try to make feminism an excuse. I view my obligations as a human the same as a man's. You want men to build for the right to education? Okay. Will do.

 

I can do that.

 

So it bothers me when I felt like, "I think I get the rules now, I think I get what I am supposed to do so when I go to put my kids in college, when I go to retire, I can look the people with power in the eye and they will say, 'well done, you can have your share' or at least respect me enough not to steal it." But no. No, here is this class of people who get an exception or something. A whole class of people with no kids, no career, no contribution to speak of, and they can have a retirement and a house and all that.

 

I know where the value in being rich lies. They are job creators. That is why some people have trust funds. Their parents worked, anything from curing patients to chopping forests, so they eat. I understand the biological and social set ups that mean that you can inherit power.

 

I do not understand the biological and social set ups that would lead a man to give his wealth, while alive, to a woman who is not related to him except by contract. That is what I am asking about. Is there a standard of wife you have to meet?

 

Everyone works according to a set of rules, an ethic and beliefs about how the world works. I just question mine.

[gardenmom5]

It sounds like that because that's exactly it.

 

I can't believe someone doesn't have to work and that's a socially acceptable option that someone would blithely mention at work as if it were not something shocking. That's why I'm asking, I'm saying, I have a negative impression of this and I'd like to improve my impression so please explain how it works, what is the value in this.

why would he expect mentioning his wife is home full-time is shocking?  for *them* it is  n.o.r.m.a.l.    it's more shocking that *you* find someone else's private choices that have no bearing on you, to the point you won't let it go, shocking.

 

you seem to be making this a whole lot more complicated that it is, to get some cosmic rule book of how they could get away with not following what you think  are "the rules".   it does  get down to different people have different experiences in life.   and there are no guarantees.

[Tsuga]

Are you saying that people in 3rd world countries that don't own a home don't deserve to be here?

 

I think many Americans would just as soon see those people die. "Well, I guess they should have run their country better."

 

Do  ​I personally believe they don't deserve to be here? No, but I'm an idiot who didn't have a home worth speaking of, that could withstand a recession until I was over 35, because I was working in charity. And when I asked why that was, people pointed out that I should have known my work wasn't worth that.

 

Not just here, but on much less emotional and much more objective and technical (financially speaking) fora. "Why do you think you deserve that? You don't. You majored in something you wanted to, you did something you cared about. Those were your choices and they are not compatible with you caring for your children." End. Of. Story. "You sound very entitled, thinking you should have gotten those things." As if I hadn't worked. Well, I'm not stupid and though it hurt a lot to hear how little society valued my contribution, I am proud of the fact that I was able to change my mind and change my career. On a daily basis I am changing my habits to those of a person who can look someone in the eye and say "I built this." "I'm a winner." "I earned this." Instead of, "Please be nice to me because I was helping."

[MomatHWTK]

Love. Teamwork. 

Marriage for many people isn't a contract. Marriage is a union- two become one. So there is no mine or his. Everything is ours and we work together so that we are both happy together. 

 

I think the issues you are dealing with are not ones anyone here can get you through. Sorry. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by MomatHWTK

[Carol in Cal.]

There will always be people who think that the Golden Rule is 'Whoever has the gold makes the rules.'  However, they are wrong.

[frogger]

Tsuga, society didn't pledge me a living. Society didn't promise to take care of me in sickness and health. My husband did. If something happened to him injury, brain damage, whatever and I had to get a job then that is what I would do and I would never ever say he wasn't pulling his weight. I've watched spouses take care of each other through Alzheimers and others through being bed ridden.  My husband and I have pledged to take care of one another. It isn't a trade agreement. We are one entity according to taxes, according to property ownership, according to census data we report "household income" not individual income. 

 

You shouldn't be angry at strangers for not being there for you but I could completely understand if you were angry at those who should have been there for you and weren't. Your father, your husband, and perhaps others I don't know about. If we lived in the same town I'd offer to bring you a home cooked meal just because I  want you to once in a while come home and relax and know what it is to have someone else care. And you absolutely didn't steal from anyone growing up. We as a society know that children can't fend for themselves and we choose to try to offer free education and meals and such to children. You don't have to feel judged for any of that, especially on this thread. Everyone wants you to know that. You are valuable.