Explain to Me Being a Non-WOH No-Kid Wife

[G5052]

I remember reading once in a feminist source that I can't remember right now the reflection that the modern US (and this extends, I think, to much of Western Europe) is the first very affluent society in the history of the world that does not routinely allow or expect or encourage paid household help much at all.  I thought that that was pretty astute.

 

Also, the supposed 'golden age' of SAHMs, as illustrated in nostalgic shows like "I Love Lucy", still included a lot of help--dairy deliveries, grocery deliveries, the 'Fuller Brush Man', sending laundry out and having it returned folded or pressed and hung, newspaper deliveries, cleaning help, etc.  The Brady Bunch had Alice.  And nobody said, "What does that woman DO all day?" because things were, in general, not nearly as frenetic as they are now, and the home was supposed to be a refuge and a place where everyone wanted to be.

 

When I was growing up in an affluent area, the majority of my friends' families' had a cleaning service come once a week. At that time it wasn't really that expensive, it seemed. They were all paid in cash. Even as recently as some 30 years ago, I knew quite a few professionals that I worked with who did that. They left an envelope of money on the counter to pay them.

 

Now if you have a certain level of household help, you have to pay more IMHO if you do it above-board. That's a factor too.

[brehon]

Laura, your description of your amah sounds heavenly. I've decided that what my family needs is a Mrs Bird (Byrd?). (My youngers have been listening to "Paddington Bear" recently.)

 

Carol, both my grandmothers (who lived very different lives) had maids come in once a week. My mom had the same until my parents divorced and she could no longer afford it.

[Guest]

I remember reading once in a feminist source that I can't remember right now the reflection that the modern US (and this extends, I think, to much of Western Europe) is the first very affluent society in the history of the world that does not routinely allow or expect or encourage paid household help much at all.  I thought that that was pretty astute.

 

Also, the supposed 'golden age' of SAHMs, as illustrated in nostalgic shows like "I Love Lucy", still included a lot of help--dairy deliveries, grocery deliveries, the 'Fuller Brush Man', sending laundry out and having it returned folded or pressed and hung, newspaper deliveries, cleaning help, etc.  The Brady Bunch had Alice.  And nobody said, "What does that woman DO all day?" because things were, in general, not nearly as frenetic as they are now, and the home was supposed to be a refuge and a place where everyone wanted to be.

 

Someone pointed this out to me about the time we got married.  It explained the traditions regarding the gifts of silver and other high-maintenance objects.  Someone ELSE was going to polish it all, care for it all.  

 

We already had our silverware (silver) but I totally drew the line on the rest of the silver gifts.  The only one that made me laugh was that a group of our friends got together and bought us silver boullion, engraved.  I still have that thing.  LOL. 

[Arcadia]

Amah is close in social rank to governess. The live in domestic maids in Asia aren't paid as well or treated as well as the amahs. Hong Kong generally treats their live in domestic helps better than other places.

 

I know ppl in third world countries that think it's incredibly selfish for people to be ABLE to afford house-help but choose not to hire anyone.

People would think the person is a scrooge or pretending to be rich by buying a pricy car and house. Even when my home country went from third world to first world, people still have that thinking.

 

In my grandparents generation, it is not unusual for pre-teen girls to work as live in maids in rich households and later married off with a small sum of money after a few years. Matchmaking was very common then for my grandparents and my parents generation.

[SKL]

The Brady Bunch had Alice.  And nobody said, "What does that woman DO all day?" because things were, in general, not nearly as frenetic as they are now, and the home was supposed to be a refuge and a place where everyone wanted to be.

 

I always used to wonder why Mrs. Brady needed a full-time maid when she was a SAHM.

 

But, my mom was a WOHM with 6 kids and no maid, so ....

 

Full disclosure though - when my folks had a little money (in their late 30s-40s), my WOH mom did hire a part-time maid at times, mainly to help a person who desperately needed the money.  Now my folks could really use the help of a maid, since they hurt themselves practically every time they move, but they will say that it's too much work to clean for the cleaners.  :P

[flyingiguana]

I remember reading once in a feminist source that I can't remember right now the reflection that the modern US (and this extends, I think, to much of Western Europe) is the first very affluent society in the history of the world that does not routinely allow or expect or encourage paid household help much at all.  I thought that that was pretty astute.

 

But is that just an indication that this society is more equal?  That the middle class isn't rich enough to pay the wages the lower classes could get by doing some other kind of work?  (in general)

 

When I was in high school and knew richer families who hired help, it seems that most of that help was illegal immigrant labor.  Meaning one could hire them for a pittance and they wouldn't complain.  (And you didn't have to pay social security or unemployment or anything)  A more unequal society was created by these families so they could afford the hired help.

 

And, of course, paid housekeeping was never a thing for families/women lowest on the economic ladder.

[SKL]

There is a negative stereotype apparently in some developed countries if a woman works and pays a maid.  I have been the recipient of such scorn here on this forum.  Apparently if you have a once-monthly maid service you are completely hands-off in your house, LOL.

 

It was hard to talk me into maid service, even when I was working 100hrs per week before kids.  I felt like I should be able to do it all.  Finally I decided it wasn't worth the freakout when people announced they were coming over within days / hours.  And now I'm an advocate of creating maid service jobs (and other domestic-related jobs) to improve quality of life for all involved.  (I pay well above minimum wage ftr.)

 

Re lower income people hiring household help, you really don't have to be "rich" in many countries to have hired help.  It's not very expensive compared to US costs.  My nanny had a nanny when she was living in her native country.

[shage]

There is a negative stereotype apparently in some developed countries if a woman works and pays a maid. I have been the recipient of such scorn here on this forum. Apparently if you have a once-monthly maid service you are completely hands-off in your house, LOL.

 

It was hard to talk me into maid service, even when I was working 100hrs per week before kids. I felt like I should be able to do it all. Finally I decided it wasn't worth the freakout when people announced they were coming over within days / hours. And now I'm an advocate of creating maid service jobs (and other domestic-related jobs) to improve quality of life for all involved. (I pay well above minimum wage ftr.)

 

Re lower income people hiring household help, you really don't have to be "rich" in many countries to have hired help. It's not very expensive compared to US costs. My nanny had a nanny when she was living in her native country.

My perspective is that if you hire help and pay well, you are providing a job. :-D

 

In some cultures, not providing the job would be selfish.

[Bluegoat]

Prenups and a paid-to-wife dowry (mahr) are SOP in Islam.

 

You just write it up and make it legal, eagle.

 

And it *is* a good thing imo. The whole community expects it, so there is zero stigma attached to the mahr. 

 

And people do different things with it*...some women waive their right to a dower, of course to be able to get married sooner or just because whatever reason. Or make it the down payment on their house, or even a ring.

 

But the paradigm is different. Husbands have a religious responsibility to provide monetarily, lock, stock and barrel for their wives and children, while women have no such compunction....their right(speaking religiously here) to work OR not work is jealously guarded, and any money they contribute to the household is considered a gift, freely given. IOW a man's money is always his family's, and a woman's money is always hers alone.

 

 

 

*I only have experience with how it's done by younger (than old lol) people in the West, obviously

 

That's interesting.  I can see though that some men might be, reasonably, dismayed by some aspects of that.  If there really are as many women working and making similar salaries to men, it seems like it could get unbalanced the other way.

 

But a lot does seem to depend on having some sense of a social norm about marriage.  I wonder if secular western culture has troubles partly because we don't have much of a sense of what we think marriage is about, in terms of the larger family questions?  I mean, some of the laws, like alimony, or divorce where there was fault, that used to be common have been discarded partly in an effort to equalize marriage. 

 

I wonder though if though if that is really realistic, but that view sometimes gets accused of gender essentialism.

[Bluegoat]

I remember reading once in a feminist source that I can't remember right now the reflection that the modern US (and this extends, I think, to much of Western Europe) is the first very affluent society in the history of the world that does not routinely allow or expect or encourage paid household help much at all.  I thought that that was pretty astute.

 

Also, the supposed 'golden age' of SAHMs, as illustrated in nostalgic shows like "I Love Lucy", still included a lot of help--dairy deliveries, grocery deliveries, the 'Fuller Brush Man', sending laundry out and having it returned folded or pressed and hung, newspaper deliveries, cleaning help, etc.  The Brady Bunch had Alice.  And nobody said, "What does that woman DO all day?" because things were, in general, not nearly as frenetic as they are now, and the home was supposed to be a refuge and a place where everyone wanted to be.

 

I wonder if this is not in part a class/meritocracy thing.  many want to think that those kinds of roles - domestic servents, milk men - will disappear when we all go to university and become professionals.  So employing someone like that directly looks like oppression.  (The fact that most of us employ such people indirectly seems to be ok, weirdly.)

 

But the other issue I think is that unlike many earlier societies, labour is very expensive for us, so that employing a servant at a minimum wage while supplying benefits would really be very costly.  And even then they would not be as well off as we might like on those wages.

 

We've chosen to turn to technology to fulfill many of those roles. 

[Guest]

That's interesting.  I can see though that some men might be, reasonably, dismayed by some aspects of that.  If there really are as many women working and making similar salaries to men, it seems like it could get unbalanced the other way.

 

But a lot does seem to depend on having some sense of a social norm about marriage.  I wonder if secular western culture has troubles partly because we don't have much of a sense of what we think marriage is about, in terms of the larger family questions?  I mean, some of the laws, like alimony, or divorce where there was fault, that used to be common have been discarded partly in an effort to equalize marriage. 

 

I wonder though if though if that is really realistic, but that view sometimes gets accused of gender essentialism.

 

I'm sure people run into problems with it, just like anything else. But I don't know any couples who have. Mostly because I don't know people who married absolute jerks, ykwim? It's just a thing that gets worked out, as in any marriage.

 

It definitely seems to me that having a set of expectations....any set that isn't overtly abusive.... is helpful. Marriage is a cultural construct right. But many of us have no cohesive cultural context. But still have the marriage.

[SKL]

The other issue is that there is a ton of red tape in legally hiring someone to do more than a minimum of domestic labor.  It's a full time job to create a part-time job, LOL.  Blah.  I assume it's a little less complex in "less developed" countries.

Edited May 31, 2016 by SKL

[regentrude]

My perspective is that if you hire help and pay well, you are providing a job. :-D

In some cultures, not providing the job would be selfish.

 

Or, depending on cultural upbringing, I might feel that paying another person to do the dirty work that is beneath me is exploitation because it would be only feasible if that person earned much less than I do. I would feel guilty about letting another person scrub my toilet.

 

I feel very differently about outsourcing work that I don't have the know-how, equipment, or ability to do vs outsourcing tasks that I simply don't wish to spend my time on.

Edited May 31, 2016 by regentrude

[zoobie]

The other issue is that there is a ton of red tape in legally hiring someone to do more than a minimum of domestic labor.  It's a full time job to create a part-time job, LOL.  Blah.  I assume it's a little less complex in "less developed" countries.

 

Which is to keep people here from being basically domestic slaves. It still happens though. 

[Bluegoat]

Depending on cultural upbringing, I might also feel that paying another person to do the dirty work that is beneath me is exploitation because it would be only feasible if that person earned much less than I do. So I could easily feel guilty about letting another person scrub my toilet.

 

I feel very differently about outsourcing work that I don't have the know-how or equipment to do vs outsourcing tasks that I simply don't wish to spend the time.

 

I think this is what people feel, it doesn't fit in well with the idea of a large middle class.

 

However, I wonder if we are really very consistant about it?  If we ever eat out, or use daycares, or taxi-cabs, or go to the movies or whatever, who is preparing our food, or scrubbing the toilets?  Who makes our coffee at coffee break?  They tend not to make much either, if they did, we would use these services much less often.

 

Most middle class people who hire help have someone come in once a week or less, so it is not like we would have to supply enough for them to live on - they are getting a wage from other people too.  And in my experience, a cleaner of that kind will typically be making more per hour than the guy at the coffee shop  is.

[regentrude]

However, I wonder if we are really very consistant about it?  If we ever eat out, or use daycares, or taxi-cabs, or go to the movies or whatever, who is preparing our food, or scrubbing the toilets?  Who makes our coffee at coffee break?  They tend not to make much either, if they did, we would use these services much less often.

 

I think this may have to do with psychology about the tasks. I feel ( emotionally, and that is ingrained and subconscious and maybe not rational) that my own dirt in my own home should be mine to clean, if that makes any sense. It feels distinctly different than using an outside service like a restaurant or a movie theater. Scrubbing my bathroom also feels different than moving my lawn.

May not be rational.

 

ETA: And then there is the issue of privacy. I would positively hate to have live in servants even though elsewhere in the world those would be the norm, but I could not even imagine having a stranger come to clean my home once a week.

Edited May 31, 2016 by regentrude

[zoobie]

I think this is what people feel, it doesn't fit in well with the idea of a large middle class.

 

However, I wonder if we are really very consistant about it? If we ever eat out, or use daycares, or taxi-cabs, or go to the movies or whatever, who is preparing our food, or scrubbing the toilets? Who makes our coffee at coffee break? They tend not to make much either, if they did, we would use these services much less often.

 

Most middle class people who hire help have someone come in once a week or less, so it is not like we would have to supply enough for them to live on - they are getting a wage from other people too. And in my experience, a cleaner of that kind will typically be making more per hour than the guy at the coffee shop is.

You'd have to grow your own food and cotton and weave and sew your own clothes on machines you made yourself to avoid exploitative labor practices.

[gypsymama]

I think this is what people feel, it doesn't fit in well with the idea of a large middle class.

 

However, I wonder if we are really very consistant about it?  If we ever eat out, or use daycares, or taxi-cabs, or go to the movies or whatever, who is preparing our food, or scrubbing the toilets?  Who makes our coffee at coffee break?  They tend not to make much either, if they did, we would use these services much less often.

 

Most middle class people who hire help have someone come in once a week or less, so it is not like we would have to supply enough for them to live on - they are getting a wage from other people too.  And in my experience, a cleaner of that kind will typically be making more per hour than the guy at the coffee shop  is.

 

My aunt has a housekeeper like this. The lady comes once a week to clean and of course cleans at other places to make the rest of her money. I know girls that have done that kind of work before and made good money. I have considered it before myself. I just need to get over my feeling that I have to do it all alone. I'm working on that ;) 

[SKL]

Or, depending on cultural upbringing, I might feel that paying another person to do the dirty work that is beneath me is exploitation because it would be only feasible if that person earned much less than I do. I would feel guilty about letting another person scrub my toilet.

 

I feel very differently about outsourcing work that I don't have the know-how, equipment, or ability to do vs outsourcing tasks that I simply don't wish to spend my time on.

 

Not necessarily paying less than you earn, if taken on an hourly basis and factoring in the cost of preparing for your career.

 

In general, "unskilled" people would rather have a job less impressive than yours vs. be unemployed.

 

And, you might be surprised how fast you get over "letting another person scrub your toilet."  When you go to work or use a public / hotel / dorm / school bathroom, you don't scrub the toilet after yourself, do you?  Some less-skilled person does it.  So why is it different at home?  You probably keep your bathroom much cleaner between scrubs than most public bathrooms.

Edited May 31, 2016 by SKL

[Bluegoat]

I think having houshold help is one of those things that is hard to get used to if you haven't had experience of it - it does seem instrusive.

 

I know a few people that do - my sister, who is actually single, has someone in every two weeks for certain jobs, really only because she likes to know it is getting done but doesn't want to do it.  My grandma used to work at k-mart PT mainly so all that she made could go to having a cleaning lady once a week - she just really hated housework and preferred to spend the time earning money to avoid it.

 

My MIL has someone come because she can't bend down easily because she has bad knees. She had a hard time getting used to it though.

[SKL]

I must admit I am still not used to the idea of having a servant (often male) come and wash my underwear, which is a normal practice in much of the world.

 

To clarify, I don't in fact have such a servant, but when visiting friends in India, they sent out my dirties for hand laundry (that's how they do it there).  Dhobi is a relatively respected job as domestic servants go.

[regentrude]

I think having houshold help is one of those things that is hard to get used to if you haven't had experience of it - it does seem instrusive.

 

I know a few people that do - my sister, who is actually single, has someone in every two weeks for certain jobs, really only because she likes to know it is getting done but doesn't want to do it.  My grandma used to work at k-mart PT mainly so all that she made could go to having a cleaning lady once a week - she just really hated housework and preferred to spend the time earning money to avoid it.

 

My MIL has someone come because she can't bend down easily because she has bad knees. She had a hard time getting used to it though.

 

My mom has a cleaning lady who comes every two weeks. It turned into more of a charity project: mom has to straighten before the lady comes, and the cleaner does not really clean all that great, mom could do a much better job herself. It is also weird for my mother to have her there; she feels she needs to work at something because it makes her very uncomfortable sitting leisurely while another person is cleaning her house. It was not something she grew up with or ever experienced until in her 60s, and she is not fully comfortable with it.

Neither am I; this is where having grow up in a communist society really screwed my perspective, and I don't think I'll ever get over it.

[regentrude]

And, you might be surprised how fast you get over "letting another person scrub your toilet."  When you go to work or use a public / hotel / dorm / school bathroom, you don't scrub the toilet after yourself, do you?  Some less-skilled person does it.  So why is it different at home?  You probably keep your bathroom much cleaner between scrubs than most public bathrooms.

 

It feels different at home because it is more private and personal - if that makes any sense. I said it was not logical.

 

Also, the person cleaning the bathroom at work has a pretty stable full time job with benefits and health insurance.

 

At work, there is division of labor; many different people taking care of their respective area of responsibility. At home, it's all our family, and taking care of the home is a shared task; it would be bringing in an outsider who has no affiliation with my home. Not at all the same.

Edited May 31, 2016 by regentrude

[gypsymama]

Or, depending on cultural upbringing, I might feel that paying another person to do the dirty work that is beneath me is exploitation because it would be only feasible if that person earned much less than I do. I would feel guilty about letting another person scrub my toilet.

 

I feel very differently about outsourcing work that I don't have the know-how, equipment, or ability to do vs outsourcing tasks that I simply don't wish to spend my time on.

 

Unless you have a full time housekeeper this isn't the case. Most people I know that have a housekeeper only have the housekeeper come in occasionally (maybe once or twice a month or maybe once a week) to do specific jobs. The housekeeper will usually only work a few hours a week/month for this one person. All their other income is earned by working for multiple families. So you may pay her $10/hr but if you only have her doing 4hrs of baseboard cleaning once a month it's $40/mo for you to pay. It would be possible to budget that in even if you made $8/hr if it was important to you because you aren't paying her 40 hrs like you are working 40 hrs. 

 

Not necessarily paying less than you earn, if taken on an hourly basis and factoring in the cost of preparing for your career.

 

In general, "unskilled" people would rather have a job less impressive than yours vs. be unemployed.

 

And, you might be surprised how fast you get over "letting another person scrub your toilet."  When you go to work or use a public / hotel / dorm / school bathroom, you don't scrub the toilet after yourself, do you?  Some less-skilled person does it.  So why is it different at home?  You probably keep your bathroom much cleaner between scrubs than most public bathrooms.

 

I agree that it isn't any different to have someone help you at home than it is to have help in public. And I think most of us should revise our opinion of these jobs. I have worked in housekeeping before and it was because I wanted to not had to. My husband was working but I wanted more income for our current goals. I needed something with a set/flexible schedule around his job. I was managing a store before we moved and didn't want that level of work or stress again. I found a housekeeping job that worked for his schedule and honestly loved it! Most of the women I worked with weren't there because they "had" to be or were unskilled either. Most worked there b/c they could work only when kids were in school or something similar. Some had other jobs and did the housekeeping in season for extra money. I think it's all in how we view it.

[Bluegoat]

It feels different at home because it is more private and personal - of that makes any sense. I said it was not logical.

 

Also, the person cleaning the bathroom at work has a pretty stable full time job with benefits and health insurance.

 

I don't know about the second bit.  A lot of people cleaning public toilets get less than domestic cleaners.  Businesses are I think more like domestic - IF they don't contract it out.  In which case they often get very little.

[SKL]

I don't know about the second bit.  A lot of people cleaning public toilets get less than domestic cleaners.  Businesses are I think more like domestic - IF they don't contract it out.  In which case they often get very little.

 

In the offices where I've worked, the cleaning staff is usually not full time.  They usually come in for a few hours after most people have left for the day.  Hopefully they have another job (part or full time) somewhere else.

 

[regentrude]

I don't know about the second bit.  A lot of people cleaning public toilets get less than domestic cleaners.  Businesses are I think more like domestic - IF they don't contract it out.  In which case they often get very little.

 

I was talking about MY work place. I'm on pretty good terms with our custodian, who is FT with bennies.

Edited May 31, 2016 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

Unless you have a full time housekeeper this isn't the case. Most people I know that have a housekeeper only have the housekeeper come in occasionally (maybe once or twice a month or maybe once a week) to do specific jobs. The housekeeper will usually only work a few hours a week/month for this one person. All their other income is earned by working for multiple families. So you may pay her $10/hr but if you only have her doing 4hrs of baseboard cleaning once a month it's $40/mo for you to pay. It would be possible to budget that in even if you made $8/hr if it was important to you because you aren't paying her 40 hrs like you are working 40 hrs. 

 

 

I agree that it isn't any different to have someone help you at home than it is to have help in public. And I think most of us should revise our opinion of these jobs. I have worked in housekeeping before and it was because I wanted to not had to. My husband was working but I wanted more income for our current goals. I needed something with a set/flexible schedule around his job. I was managing a store before we moved and didn't want that level of work or stress again. I found a housekeeping job that worked for his schedule and honestly loved it! Most of the women I worked with weren't there because they "had" to be or were unskilled either. Most worked there b/c they could work only when kids were in school or something similar. Some had other jobs and did the housekeeping in season for extra money. I think it's all in how we view it.

 

I've considered doing housekeeping when my kids are in school for similar reasons.  No real stress or work to bring home, not bad pay, flexible hours.  I do childcare now and the only real advantage from a job perspective is that I can do it when I am home with my own kids - per hour the pay is not good and the hours are very long.  I could make as much doing only the equivalent of a day and a half cleaning per week.

[gypsymama]

I don't know about the second bit.  A lot of people cleaning public toilets get less than domestic cleaners.  Businesses are I think more like domestic - IF they don't contract it out.  In which case they often get very little.

 

This is very true. I know a lot of businesses that pay minimum wage for the cleaners but domestic housekeepers I know make $10+ hr. They make much more money plus are able to set their own schedules, etc. I think they usually get a much better deal. The only possible downside is lack of benefits but most companies are careful to keep "low end" jobs at part time hours so they don't have to provide benefits which means that possible extra is gone. I am lucky to live in a tourist area that makes for lots of housekeeping and lots of competition. You can make $10/hr here cleaning rooms as long as you are selective in picking jobs. 

[zoobie]

In the offices where I've worked, the cleaning staff is usually not full time.  They usually come in for a few hours after most people have left for the day.  Hopefully they have another job (part or full time) somewhere else.

 

 

Most businesses contract it out. The cleaners are independent contractors with the cleaning agency and get paid usually half or less than half the hourly rate paid to the agency. Creates a disposable work force for the dirty jobs.

[Bluegoat]

I was talking about MY work place. I'm on pretty good terms with our custodian.

 

Sure, but I am guessing that if they changed the cleaning arrangements, you wouldn't be leaving your job.  (I could be wrong here, and my guess is you'd speak up if you thought it was unfair anyway, but my point is that many workplaces do not pay well for that work.)

[Guest]

I used to clean carpets for large companies. It was contracted out to the ppl I worked for, who paid cash per job. lol @ benefits. If you couldn't work a job, NBD to them. If they didn't ask you to work a job, you're out of luck cause that's NBD to them either.

 

The regular weekend cleaners that actually cleaned the bathrooms/vacced out vents/whatever were run the same. And then most places had one or two people doing light every-day stuff...take out trash, wipe down breakroom counters, refill handsoap etc.

 

So it was totally fine for how we needed it...extra money here and there. But some people were (are) trying to live off jobs like that.

[gypsymama]

I've considered doing housekeeping when my kids are in school for similar reasons.  No real stress or work to bring home, not bad pay, flexible hours.  I do childcare now and the only real advantage from a job perspective is that I can do it when I am home with my own kids - per hour the pay is not good and the hours are very long.  I could make as much doing only the equivalent of a day and a half cleaning per week.

 

Exactly! I loved it. Maybe I was so happy because I'd previously been beyond stressed working tons of hours, still not making much, etc. I got that housekeeping job for a little less money and had zero stress! I had a "set" schedule of daytime but it was really flexible. I also really loved that (being a hotel) I was given a clipboard each day with the rooms I had to clean and a cart with MY supplies. My things were my responsibility and I couldn't be held responsible for anyone else's mistakes. Ahhhh :) Oh and the uniform was just black bottoms and wear the button up shirt so I put on black yoga pants and a tank top to go to work with the uni shirt over it. Relaxed wear :) I got to clock in and clock out with ZERO thought to my job once I was home. When I got off work it was just me and my babies with plenty of daylight and time off to enjoy each other.  :001_wub:  (Maybe I'm a weirdo but all that made this "low end" job the best job I have ever had as a mother and I loved it!)

[Bluegoat]

Exactly! I loved it. Maybe I was so happy because I'd previously been beyond stressed working tons of hours, still not making much, etc. I got that housekeeping job for a little less money and had zero stress! I had a "set" schedule of daytime but it was really flexible. I also really loved that (being a hotel) I was given a clipboard each day with the rooms I had to clean and a cart with MY supplies. My things were my responsibility and I couldn't be held responsible for anyone else's mistakes. Ahhhh :) Oh and the uniform was just black bottoms and wear the button up shirt so I put on black yoga pants and a tank top to go to work with the uni shirt over it. Relaxed wear :) I got to clock in and clock out with ZERO thought to my job once I was home. When I got off work it was just me and my babies with plenty of daylight and time off to enjoy each other.  :001_wub:  (Maybe I'm a weirdo but all that made this "low end" job the best job I have ever had as a mother and I loved it!)

 

I think there is a lot to be said for jobs like this if you are working for less than FT.  I have a ton of things I like to do that are intellectually interesting to me - I'd rather have time to do them than think about work stuff at home. (I think if you are FT if the job is too boring it can be harder, but even then I know many people who prefer a job that is finished when you go home.)  Sometimes I even find a repetitive job can allow me to think about things that I need to gather my thoughts for.

 

I've sometimes wondered about hotel work though, if it would be gross, maybe reading too much Dan Savage.

[Bluegoat]

And I also like being in charge of my own set-up - I really liked vending hotdogs because I was in charge of my own work.

[LucyStoner]

Or, depending on cultural upbringing, I might feel that paying another person to do the dirty work that is beneath me is exploitation because it would be only feasible if that person earned much less than I do. I would feel guilty about letting another person scrub my toilet.

 

I feel very differently about outsourcing work that I don't have the know-how, equipment, or ability to do vs outsourcing tasks that I simply don't wish to spend my time on.

The cleaning lady I paid to clean my mom's apartment back in 2003-2006 was on her last year of mortgage payments in a nice part of town and brought home as much as her husband did from a traditionally white collar job. She had worked at a bank before her daughter with special needs was born. She got into cleaning because it was the only thing that paid well enough to bring in good wages where she didn't need more schooling, could set her own hours and earn enough while her daughter was in developmental preschool to be able to afford to be with her child after 1/2 time school. She also had clients who didn't mind her bringing her daughter with her occasionally. The person I paid to clean my house from 2009-2012 was also a homeowner supporting a family making very good money. More money than he would have made in a lot of places.

 

When I was a PT cleaner in college circa 1998 I was getting $15+ an hour, often quite a bit more with tips. That was more than 2x the the minimum wage and aside from typing up legal documents for attorneys was my highest paying college job. I find it amusing that in our culture I would be considered the exploited one next to my friends who were at the same time, pulling in minimum wage for working at say, a bookstore or in an office.

 

The going rate for cleaners here is 2x the going rate for childcare and is higher than the wages at any entry level service, sales or secretarial I've been doing a bit of decluttering and organizing for a few people and they pay me as much as I charge my accounting clients.

 

We have a weird idea of class in our culture about what is demeaning work and what is respectable work that is wholly unrelated to the actual wages paid for the work.

Edited May 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[gypsymama]

I think there is a lot to be said for jobs like this if you are working for less than FT.  I have a ton of things I like to do that are intellectually interesting to me - I'd rather have time to do them than think about work stuff at home. (I think if you are FT if the job is too boring it can be harder, but even then I know many people who prefer a job that is finished when you go home.)  Sometimes I even find a repetitive job can allow me to think about things that I need to gather my thoughts for.

 

I've sometimes wondered about hotel work though, if it would be gross, maybe reading too much Dan Savage.

 

I agree that it helped give me time to gather my thoughts or just get some peace. I was even allowed to wear headphones and could listen to music on my phone or I could listen to podcasts and such. Learn a foreign language via youtube anyone? Audiobook? In a sense I could get my personal time during my work time. When I went home at the end of the day I was relaxed and happy, having already had "me" time and no work to take home, I could really just focus on spending time with my family. 

 

--- The hotel work thing is going to depend on the place. I worked in a nice hotel (Baymont) so it was clean and respectable with all the proper materials needed supplied. I did take in some items (like a swiffer vac) to make my job easier and more convenient for me but it wasn't necessary. The rooms were usually treated well by guests, we cleaned them well daily and we had a good maintenance guy that did his job. Usually it was very simple... change sheets and towels out, dust furniture/fixtures, check ac filter, vacuum/mop, replace toiletries, clean sink counter, tub and toilet. No big deal. There were sometimes that were yuck like a tub that had buildup in (Mr Clean eraser!), gunk left on counters, something spilled in the fridge, or stuff all over the floor so I had a hassle vacuuming but those were exceptions. My favorite: The time a family let their toddler loose in the room with Doritos... and I know the age of the child because everything in reach was touched with tiny toddler paw prints and crumbs.  :tongue_smilie:

[Spryte]

The cleaning lady I paid to clean my mom's apartment back in 2003-2006 was on her last year of mortgage payments in a nice part of town and brought home as much as her husband did from a traditionally white collar job. She had worked at a bank before her daughter with special needs was born. She got into cleaning because it was the only thing that paid well enough to bring in good wages where she didn't need more schooling, could set her own hours and earn enough while her daughter was in developmental preschool to be able to afford to be with her child after 1/2 time school. She also had clients who didn't mind her bringing her daughter with her occasionally. The person I paid to clean my house from 2009-2012 was also a homeowner supporting a family making very good money. More money than he would have made in a lot of places.

 

When I was a PT cleaner in college circa 1998 I was getting $15+ an hour, often quite a bit more with tips. That was more than 2x the the minimum wage and aside from typing up legal documents for attorneys was my highest paying job. I find it amusing that in our culture I would be considered the exploited one next to my friends who were at the same time, pulling in minimum wage for working at say, a bookstore or in an office.

 

The going rate for cleaners here is 2x the going rate for childcare and is higher than the wages at any entry level service, sales or secretarial I've been doing a bit of decluttering and organizing for a few people and they pay me as much as I charge my accounting clients.

 

We have a weird idea of class in our culture about what is demeaning work and what is respectable work that is wholly unrelated to the actual wages paid for the work.

Yes. This.

 

We pay our cleaners well over $20 per hour, each. Plus, I tip them. We give them each an extra week's pay at holiday time. They set their own hours, they are homeowners in a high COL area, and they drive more expensive cars than our family. They do the "dream Disney" type vacation every summer, and at least one of them owns a boat on a local recreational lake. I know that the boat owner's husband had joined in and is now cleaning houses as well, despite a previous white collar job.

 

That said, it's hard work that they do. I appreciate them.

[bolt.]

DH's workplace has an employee scheduled each week to clean the break room. Which sounds sensible until you realize that that company earns hundreds of dollars for every hour my DH works for customers... The company looses thousands of dollars in billable hours based on this policy of not using a cleaning service. It varies by the value of each employee, but they loose around one thousand every time my DH's week rolls around and they'd rather he wash coffee mugs instead of using his skills to make money. It's pretty foolish.

Edited May 31, 2016 by bolt.

[Bluegoat]

DH's workplace has an employee scheduled each week to clean the break room. Which sounds sensible until you realize that that company earns hundreds of dollars for every hour my DH works for customers... The company looses thousands of dollars in billable hours based on this policy of not using a cleaning service. It varies by the value of each employee, but they loose around one thousand every time my DH's week rolls around and they'd rather he wash coffee mugs instead of using his skills to make money. It's pretty foolish.

 

It could be that there is other value in this sort of arrangement though. 

[katilac]

It could be that there is other value in this sort of arrangement though. 

 

Like what? Team building kind of thing? 

[regentrude]

It could be that there is other value in this sort of arrangement though. 

 

That's what I'd think. A sense of responsibility for a community space, perhaps?

 

(Reminds me of us cleaning the school when I was a kid; there was no paid custodial staff, students did everything. Some schools nowadays implement this intentionally.)

Edited May 31, 2016 by regentrude

[shage]

Or, depending on cultural upbringing, I might feel that paying another person to do the dirty work that is beneath me is exploitation because it would be only feasible if that person earned much less than I do. I would feel guilty about letting another person scrub my toilet.

 

I feel very differently about outsourcing work that I don't have the know-how, equipment, or ability to do vs outsourcing tasks that I simply don't wish to spend my time on.

I don't share this guilt at all (and yes I do scrub my own toilets). To me it is no different than eating out (someone has to wash those dishes!) or getting a pedicure. (I hate the thought of a pedicure and have never had one, but would scrubbing someone else's feet be inherently demeaning?)

 

I can't think of much work that I would find inherently demeaning PROVIDED the worker is compensated fairly and provided safe working conditions.

 

It is perfectly legitimate to choose to spend your time elsewhere. Otherwise we would all.be involved in large scale food production and knitting our own socks.

[shage]

Question for regenetrude.

 

I heard similar ideas when I lived in Norway. The idea being that people should do their own cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. Yet, they were quick to outsource elder care and care of disabled children because there were viable options not available here in the US.

 

How does this jive?

 

It's an interesting paradox where self care is prioritized but care for others is encouraged to be done by professionals.

 

Not sure how this works in Germany?

[regentrude]

Question for regenetrude.

 

I heard similar ideas when I lived in Norway. The idea being that people should do their own cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. Yet, they were quick to outsource elder care and care of disabled children because there were viable options not available here in the US.

 

How does this jive?

 

It's an interesting paradox where self care is prioritized but care for others is encouraged to be done by professionals.

 

Not sure how this works in Germany?

 

First of all, as I explained in an earlier post, much of my feeling stems from my childhood, so they have nothing to do with today's Germany.

 

I do not know what you mean about elder care; in my experience, elder care is outsourced only in situations when it is no longer feasible for the family to care for the old people because the nursing needs cannot be met at home, or the family cannot care for a person with severe dementia. The desired situation is for old people to either live with their family or independently, and it is seen as the preferable option to provide services to keep the old people in their own homes as long as possible. (My MIL lived at home for several years with in-home health care and a house keeper and her blind elderly husband; only when her MS and Alzheimer made her require actual nursing care and she could no longer be kept safe at home did she move to a nursing facility. This seems to be the pattern in other families, too).

 

Childcare: this is a very different situation than cleaning homes. In Germany, childcare is done by professionals with degrees in early childhood education, and the standards are much higher than they are in this country. People use childcare for two basic reasons: first, if the parents work; second, because the family considers it of educational value to have their child attend a childcare center - similar to why Americans send their kids to preschool.  All mothers stay home with infants for at least two months since this is mandated by law; it is illegal to employ a woman before 8 weeks postpartum. Most stay home for at least a year. Other than in the US, they have civilized maternity and family leave. Many mothers stay home for the three years for which the law guarantees that your employer has to give you your job back. So, I have not made the experience that childcare is used more extensively than in the US where many moms have to return to work very shortly after the birth, and where there are substandard daycares with untrained staff.

 

Specifically disabled children: I have not made the experience that care for disabled children is outsourced to a particular extent. In many cases, parents of disabled kids stay home, even though they would work if the child were not disabled. There are special daycares for disabled children that offer extensive therapy. My niece was born premature with cerebral palsy; after being home with my sister for a year, she then attended a daycare where she received daily therapies from trained therapists, something a parent could not have provided, which at the same time allowed her single parent to finish her education and get into a position to earn a living for the two of them. She then attended a special public school for children with disabilities because of the therapeutic offerings that were available on site.

 

I fail to see how this is comparable with having somebody clean houses. I have not come across people who have somebody care for their kids simply because they don't like to do it themselves... I'm sure those exist, but are not the majority of people who utilize childcare services.

 

As for laundry: actually, it is fairly common to send out large pieces of laundry. The small capacity of the washing machines, typically lack of a dryer, and drying on drying racks or shared clotheslines makes it difficult for many people to launder their own sheets. My mother has sent out sheets/linens as far as I can think back.

 

ETA: One thing people do more is fix their own meals. In Germany, eating out is something you do for a special occasion. You would not go eat out on a daily basis because it is simply too expensive.

Edited May 31, 2016 by regentrude

[Spryte]

I understand the discomfort with having someone scrub our toilets. I get the guilt. Regentrude, I thought you described it well. So I pay well for our housekeeping help, and tip well, and provide paid time off at the holidays - for a very part time position.

 

Having paid help evolved for me because I was seriously ill. I could not even walk up and down our stairs, and had live-in parental help for two years, to help with the then 15 month old. I had to get over the guilt. And I still need the help, to have energy to homeschool well. So it's just part of life here. I can only do so much, and do it well, with limited energy. DH views homeschooling our kids as a full time job, so he outsources cleaners.

 

In fact, reading this thread has made me deeply grateful all over again for my DH. I'm so thankful he didn't just view me as a contract, and that when I became ill and could no longer work - he continued to support me in a thousand ways. He still does. He's a kick butt guy.

[regentrude]

I understand the discomfort with having someone scrub our toilets. I get the guilt. Regentrude, I thought you described it well. So I pay well for our housekeeping help, and tip well, and provide paid time off at the holidays - for a very part time position.

 

Having paid help evolved for me because I was seriously ill. I could not even walk up and down our stairs, and had live-in parental help for two years, to help with the then 15 month old. I had to get over the guilt. And I still need the help, to have energy to homeschool well. So it's just part of life here. I can only do so much, and do it well, with limited energy. DH views homeschooling our kids as a full time job, so he outsources cleaners.

 

In your situation, it makes perfect sense to hire somebody to help!

As I said elsewhere, I myself would have no qualms about hiring somebody to perform a task which I could not perform myself. That would include house cleaning if I were physically handicapped or ill.

I would have the guilt merely if I hired somebody just because I did not want to do an unpleasant household task. (I'm still holding out on getting a professional window cleaner; it is the one task I hate and for which I never get satisfactory results.. maybe I need to get a pro.)

[shage]

Interesting, regenetrude. Thanks for typing that out.

 

At the time we lived in Norway we had an elderly family member living with us and it was not the cultural norm. Most elderly Norwegians lived independent of families with plans for long term care in care communities in place. It was considered strange to have an elderly person who planned to stay with the family forever.

 

It is interesting to me the European concept of a professional. I am likely way over generalizing, but they seem to have specific training for jobs that here in the US would be more DIY. For example, my husband is an engineer but good with construction and he has done all kinds of construction that most Europeans would find strange.

 

Even early childcare is professionalized in a way it is not in the US. (Licensing for day care in the US is typically more about health and safety, less about educational credentials of the teachers.)

 

Except for house cleaning. Not a professional job.

 

The lines between the two seem fairly arbitrary to me. Because I can think of many jobs of about the same skill level that are professionalized.

 

Really, I think the issue is that with high labor costs, it's just not the norm.

[regentrude]

It is interesting to me the European concept of a professional. I am likely way over generalizing, but they seem to have specific training for jobs that here in the US would be more DIY. For example, my husband is an engineer but good with construction and he has done all kinds of construction that most Europeans would find strange.

 

Even early childcare is professionalized in a way it is not in the US. (Licensing for day care in the US is typically more about health and safety, less about educational credentials of the teachers.)

 

Except for house cleaning. Not a professional job.

 

The lines between the two seem fairly arbitrary to me. Because I can think of many jobs of about the same skill level that are professionalized.

 

Really, I think the issue is that with high labor costs, it's just not the norm.

 

I only know about Germany, but you are correct there: there is specialized training for pretty much every job. You study for 2-3 years to become a daycare teacher. You get 2 years of education in order to become a retail salesperson.

This is one of the big advantages and disadvantages of the German system. The advantage is that almost every youth receives some post-high school education; either college, or vocational schools and apprenticeships. A mixed model where you apprentice for three days and go to vocational for two days is very common. Consequently, you end up with a highly trained work force.

The downside is that the system is rigid and it is difficult to change jobs without re-training; the model of simply starting to work and learning on the job exists only in very low skilled trades.

 

To clean private homes is one of the rare jobs that requires no formal training. There is however, the job of a  professional "Gebaeudereininger" (Building cleaner) that requires a three year education (dual system of practical training and vocational school). Those would be the people employed by companies that specialize in cleaning hospitals, clean manufacturing, outside cleaning.

[frogger]

 

 

I think it's appalling that childcare is paid less than cleaning. What's more important - your baby or your toilet ? 

 

 

 

 

It may not seem fair but if you think about it a housecleaner can clean many people's homes. Individual households can afford to pay someone $20 an hour when they only show up once a week or twice a month. Compare that to households trying to pay for care that is 40+ hours a week. Added to that fact is that many of them have multiple children and any individual childcare worker can only watch so many children. With infants the number is usually 2-3 max per state law. 

 

It is in interesting twist of this thread considering the OP was saying their was a drastic difference in the amount of work of being a SAHM versus a SAHW.