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Really interesting experiment on natural vs. other disinfectants. I was surprised at what won.

Laurie4b

By Laurie4b,
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Laurie4b

Laurie4b

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This blog is set up so that you have the info to duplicate these science experiments if you have kids of the age to do so, which might make it appealing to some of you. 

 

Anyway, she set up several experiments testing products from bleach,alcohol , vinegar, peroxide, Lysol, Seventh Generation etc.  I will be changing my disinfecting procedures! 

 

http://www.stopthestomachflu.com/Home/which-cleaning-products-kill-germs-the-best

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hornblower

hornblower

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There's a product used in vet clinics & animal rehab places called Peroxigard which is essentially 7% hydrogen peroxide. It's a very good bactericide & viruside. 

I'm sure the regular strength you get at the drugstore is fine for most people's homes.

The only thing with h202 is that it bleaches stuff so don't get it on your nice towels, and make sure when you're spraying you're not getting mist on your socks/pantlegs/sleeves etc. Dd's scrubs are all splotchy from this stuff....

It would imo be fine to use on any hard / sealed surface. Might change the color of any colored grout. 

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gardenmom5

gardenmom5

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most of them didn't surprise me.  I would have expected bleach or alcohol to do better.

 

I do have a RN friend who uses hydrogen peroxide to get blood out of fabric.  (she's around alot of blood.  more than usual.)  so, I've been using that trick for years.  watch it bubble . . . .

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Guest

Guest

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Am I the only one skeeved out by the fact that she was intentionally testing bacteria grow ON HER KITCHEN COUNTER?

 

I feel like I am unintentionally testing bacteria growth on my counter, so more power to her :laugh:

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milovany

milovany

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Although do we always want to kill all germs all the time?

 

Thanks for bringing some sanity to my morning!  After opening this thread, I spent almost an hour reading around at the website, bookmarking pages (taking note of products I needed to purchase) and then checked back here to ask a question. When I saw your post, I realized "Hey! We hardly ever get sick so my cleaning routine is probably fine as it stands."  I did lose an hour ... but only one!

 

Edited by milovany
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kbutton

kbutton

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The only thing with h202 is that it bleaches stuff so don't get it on your nice towels, and make sure when you're spraying you're not getting mist on your socks/pantlegs/sleeves etc. Dd's scrubs are all splotchy from this stuff....

 

It would imo be fine to use on any hard / sealed surface. Might change the color of any colored grout. 

 

This is why we don't currently use peroxide--I would have spots on everything I owned no matter how careful I am. We've used tiny amounts for blood and ended up with spots all over. I wish I could use it widely.

 

Peroxide needs to be kept in an opaque bottle.

 

I am happy to see good news about Norwex. I am hoping to buy some Norwex cloths at some point. We have found regular microfiber to be a great addition to elbow grease, and then we follow up with a disinfectant that has silver in it (kills MRSA if left on the surface for ten minutes). It's called Spectra San. The directions state that it's for disinfecting already cleaned surfaces, which is the case with most disinfectant products. I think I'm going to need to start boiling my microfiber rags though. They are very hard to get clean.

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Laurie4b

Laurie4b

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most of them didn't surprise me.  I would have expected bleach or alcohol to do better.

 

I do have a RN friend who uses hydrogen peroxide to get blood out of fabric.  (she's around alot of blood.  more than usual.)  so, I've been using that trick for years.  watch it bubble . . . .

 

Yeah, I was thinking alcohol would do much better than it did. That has been what I take with me when we go to a hotel or rent a house or something. There are some things I would prefer to sanitize myself, just to make sure, KWIM? 

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Laurie4b

Laurie4b

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Although do we always want to kill all germs all the time?

 

 

I'm not particularly germaphobic. My kids were exposed to a broad microbiome growing up! 

 

However, when I want to disinfect, it's nice to know what works best. E.g. If I spill raw chicken juice on the shelf in the fridge or on the counter, or I want to disinfect a hotel bathroom before using it, or someone is puking in the house and I really don't wanna get it. In those cases, when I think I've disinfected, I want to know that I really have!  Alcohol had been my previous go-to. 

Edited by Laurie4b
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Tsuga

Tsuga

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Fascinating! We usually clean with water but before a sleepover or playdate with a very little one, I will wipe everything down with chemicals out of respect for the guests and the fact that they may not share our attitude towards a little dirt never hurt. I guess now I know what to use. Thank you for sharing!

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Spy Car

Spy Car

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What they missed—and I've posted about on the forum for years—is that hydrogen peroxide, while good on its own, is even more powerful a disinfectant when sprayed (from separate bottles, not mixed) in a 50/50 mix with white vinegar. 

 

It is non-toxic and food safe.

 

Bill

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ElizabethB

ElizabethB

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What they missed—and I've posted about on the forum for years—is that hydrogen peroxide, while good on its own, is even more powerful a disinfectant when sprayed (from separate bottles, not mixed) in a 50/50 mix with white vinegar.

 

It is non-toxic and food safe.

 

Bill

It is also VOC free, I now react to VOCs. I have been using Oxygen Bleach for my toilets, it uses the same chemical mechanism as hydrogen peroxide so emits no VOCs, regular bleach emits VOCs. Is the hydrogen peroxide/ vinegar sprayed mix strong enough for toilets?

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Laurie4b

Laurie4b

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What they missed—and I've posted about on the forum for years—is that hydrogen peroxide, while good on its own, is even more powerful a disinfectant when sprayed (from separate bottles, not mixed) in a 50/50 mix with white vinegar. 

 

It is non-toxic and food safe.

 

Bill

 

You should contact the blog owner and suggest that combination be added. 

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ktgrok

ktgrok

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What they missed—and I've posted about on the forum for years—is that hydrogen peroxide, while good on its own, is even more powerful a disinfectant when sprayed (from separate bottles, not mixed) in a 50/50 mix with white vinegar. 

 

It is non-toxic and food safe.

 

Bill

 

Given that the H2O2 killed off pretty much everything on it's own, not sure it's worth an extra step?

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ElizabethB

ElizabethB

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You should contact the blog owner and suggest that combination be added.

Or someone here can do the experiment and report back!!

 

I just read her laundry one and wonder if she knows about oxygen bleach, I wonder if that would work in laundry. With our food allergies, I am on the other side of this, we react to almost nothing and need to build up our immune systems, I don't worry or stress about germs too much, but I do want clean toilets, no one wants to look at a yucky toilet.

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creekland

creekland

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Although do we always want to kill all germs all the time?

 

No, for most people the answer is definitely not.

 

Thanks for bringing some sanity to my morning!  After opening this thread, I spent almost an hour reading around at the website, bookmarking pages (taking note of products I needed to purchase) and then checked back here to ask a question. When I saw your post, I realized "Hey! We hardly ever get sick so my cleaning routine is probably fine as it stands."  I did lose an hour ... but only one!

 

 

We are very rarely sick - can't really remember the last time TBH - and I credit a bit of that to NOT cleaning much.  I picked up that tidbit early in my married life from a friend who was in a wheelchair due to polio.  She told me in her youth, those who got polio came from the "clean" families... that anecdote followed by a fair number of studies suggesting dirt, pets, and other typical "life" experiences are important in our immune life (for most of us - not all, of course) set up my new pattern.  No regrets.  We have no allergies in any family member and very few illnesses even when exposed to a ton of germs (at school, traveling), etc.  Some of that is likely genetics, but with the rest, we seem to support the studies I've read --> more exposure = fewer illnesses.

 

I like that a damp paper towel worked about as well as disinfectant wipes, and almost as well as the peroxide, etc. For every day cleaning just using a paper towel or a bleachable washcloth seems fine, with peroxide for the really gross stuff. 

 

Damp cloths are what we use most of the time.  I don't even own much in chemical cleaners.  A basic dish soap covers those other times & we use a basic toilet cleaner in the toilet.

 

We do have peroxide as it's useful on pony hooves when they get thrush.  I'll keep it in mind if I feel the need to really kill something, but in general, bacteria are a fact of life and our systems have adapted quite well to them by now.  Not killing the good ones is incredibly important to keeping the bad ones in check (for most of us) I think.

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Carrie12345

Carrie12345

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We don't get sick all that often for a family of 7 that spends time with a lot of different people/groups in various placs over the course of a month.  There haven't been many illnesses here that I can imagine tracing back to bacteria.  We've had our fair share of cold viruses and one flu virus, and those are the times I attempt to attack all surfaces to minimize the domino effect.  Not that I've been very successful, lol.

 

I am paranoid about raw meats, way more than toilets.

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Spy Car

Spy Car

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Given that the H2O2 killed off pretty much everything on it's own, not sure it's worth an extra step?

 

Not really an extra step—especially if you're armed like a double-fisted gun-slinger, with a spray bottle in each hand.

 

I'm not a germ-o-phobe, but when you have things like raw chicken juices, I like a double punch.

 

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
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Spy Car

Spy Car

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It is also VOC free, I now react to VOCs. I have been using Oxygen Bleach for my toilets, it uses the same chemical mechanism as hydrogen peroxide so emits no VOCs, regular bleach emits VOCs. Is the hydrogen peroxide/ vinegar sprayed mix strong enough for toilets?

 

For the outside. I would think. For the bowl? No idea, but it might get too dilute if mixed with water. not sure.

 

Bill

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heartlikealion

heartlikealion

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I actually bought that hydrogen perioxide in a spray bottle recently due to this thread, but I was nervous to use it because of the warning be careful of it ruining surfaces. Probably sound dumb, but anything that ruins surfaces makes me go hmm how safe is this?

 

We use Mrs. Meyer's cleaner and Method. I wonder how Mrs. Meyer's ranks.

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itsheresomewhere

itsheresomewhere

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I actually bought that hydrogen perioxide in a spray bottle recently due to this thread, but I was nervous to use it because of the warning be careful of it ruining surfaces. Probably sound dumb, but anything that ruins surfaces makes me go hmm how safe is this?

 

We use Mrs. Meyer's cleaner and Method. I wonder how Mrs. Meyer's ranks.

 

We use it on granite, stone, and tile.  I haven't noticed any surfaces ruined but I don't leave it on the surfaces long.  

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LucyStoner

LucyStoner

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Just be sure to NOT rebottle peroxide into your own translucent spray bottles. It is sensitive to changing temperatures and light and will lose its efficacy.

 

I only use it for things that really need to be disinfected- like surfaces that I have cut raw poultry on or when someone's vomit misses the toilet in the bathroom. Otherwise I mostly use Method or a mixture of dawn and vinegar.

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Dicentra

Dicentra

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While I appreciate her meticulous methodology, she starts out talking about norovirus and how she was looking for ways to neutralize it but her entire experiment was about killing bacteria and which products were best at that.  Bacteria and viruses are NOT the same thing and what kills bacteria may or may not "kill" viruses.  That's not to say there weren't viral particles in the mud she took from outside but, if I'm remembering my microbiology, viruses don't grow and produce colonies on standard agar plates so she wasn't actually testing how well any of these products worked against viruses.

 

For those pondering the combination of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar, I would think it would be overkill.  Hydrogen peroxide kills bacteria by disrupting the cell membrane of the bacteria.  For that matter, hydrogen peroxide will disrupt ALL cell membranes.  When you put H2O2 on a cut, it's lyzing both your living skin cells and bacterial cells.  Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful cell membrane disruptor - it makes me nervous when I hear people say that it's "all-natural" and then they proceed to squirt it up their kids' noses, etc.  I would assume that hydrogen peroxide also "kills" viruses (even though the experiments on the blog didn't test that) because it's a strong oxidizing agent - it probably oxidizes the proteins in the virus and breaks them down, hence rendering the virus harmless.  In essence, hydrogen peroxide will probably kill anything - no vinegar needed.  As an added caution, when hydrogen peroxide is in an acidic solution, it's oxidizing ability is MUCH higher.  Good, I suppose, for killing every living cell it touches but bad in terms of safety.

 

I also wouldn't recommend any strength of hydrogen peroxide past 3% v/v.  That's plenty powerful enough.  This is a quote from Wikipedia that sums up my feelings:

"Hydrogen peroxide is often described as being "water but with one more oxygen atom", a description that can give the incorrect impression of significant chemical similarity between the two compounds. While they have a similar melting point and appearance, pure hydrogen peroxide will explode if heated to boiling, will cause serious contact burns to the skin and can set materials alight on contact. For these reasons it is usually handled as a dilute solution (household grades are typically 3–6% in the U.S. and somewhat higher in Europe). Its chemistry is dominated by the nature of its unstable peroxide bond."

 

Here's some guidelines on using hydrogen peroxide as a disinfectant:

"Hydrogen peroxide can be used for the sterilization of various surfaces,[39] including surgical tools[40] and may be deployed as a vapour (VHP) for room sterilization.[41] H2O2 demonstrates broad-spectrum efficacy against viruses, bacteria, yeasts, and bacterial spores.[42] In general, greater activity is seen against gram-positive than gram-negative bacteria; however, the presence of catalase or other peroxidases in these organisms can increase tolerance in the presence of lower concentrations.[43] Higher concentrations of H2O2 (10 to 30%) and longer contact times are required for sporicidal activity.[44]

Hydrogen peroxide is seen as an environmentally safe alternative to chlorine-based bleaches, as it degrades to form oxygen and water and it is generally recognized as safe as an antimicrobial agent by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[45]

Historically hydrogen peroxide was used for disinfecting wounds, partly because of its low cost and prompt availability compared to other antiseptics. It is now thought to slow healing and lead to scarring because it destroys newly formed skin cells.[46] Only a very low concentration of H2O2 can induce healing, and only if not repeatedly applied.[47] Surgical use can lead to gas embolism formation.[48] Despite this it is still used for wound treatment in many developing countries.[49][50]

It is absorbed by skin upon contact and creates a local capillary embolism that appears as a temporary whitening of the skin.[51]"

 

Just want folks to have all the facts. :)

Edited by Dicentra
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Spy Car

Spy Car

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The standard strength for Hydrogen Peroxide sold in the US is 3%, not 35% (as in the misleading photo)

 

No one is advocating spraying peroxide and vinegar up children's noses. But, as you say, for disinfecting vinegar and peroxide beats peroxide alone. 

 

If one has items, such as cutting boards or sinks, that have been exposed to items like raw chicken the peroxide-vinegar combination is a very effective and safe way to disinfect these things. it is more effective AND safer than alternative disinfectants. Peroxide (3%) breaks down rapidly to water and oxygen. 

 

Those are the facts. 

 

Bill

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Dicentra

Dicentra

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The standard strength for Hydrogen Peroxide sold in the US is 3%, not 35% (as in the misleading photo)

 

No one is advocating spraying peroxide and vinegar up children's noses. But, as you say, for disinfecting vinegar and peroxide beats peroxide alone. 

 

If one has items, such as cutting boards or sinks, that have been exposed to items like raw chicken the peroxide-vinegar combination is a very effective and safe way to disinfect these things. it is more effective AND safer than alternative disinfectants. Peroxide (3%) breaks down rapidly to water and oxygen. 

 

Those are the facts. 

 

Bill

 

You're right - the photo was misleading.  I didn't realize it had copied over with the text.  I removed it.

 

The "squirt up the nose" comment was more a (possibly unnecessary) reaction to "advice" posts I've seen floating around in various places that tout hydrogen peroxide as an "all-natural" substance that is safe to use pretty much anywhere - including as a disinfectant for various body orifices.  Knowing what I know about the chemistry of hydrogen peroxide, I tend to get concerned when I come across that kind of advice.  It was pre-emptive for me to mention it here, I suppose, and maybe not needed.

 

I still don't think you need to combine vinegar and hydrogen peroxide but if you feel that it works for you, that's great.  Don't misunderstand me - I think we're basically agreeing with one another.  My main point was to make sure that folks knew there were caveats to the safety of hydrogen peroxide.  That's all.

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Spy Car

Spy Car

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You're right - the photo was misleading.  I didn't realize it had copied over with the text.  I removed it.

 

The "squirt up the nose" comment was more a (possibly unnecessary) reaction to "advice" posts I've seen floating around in various places that tout hydrogen peroxide as an "all-natural" substance that is safe to use pretty much anywhere - including as a disinfectant for various body orifices.  Knowing what I know about the chemistry of hydrogen peroxide, I tend to get concerned when I come across that kind of advice.  It was pre-emptive for me to mention it here, I suppose, and maybe not needed.

 

I still don't think you need to combine vinegar and hydrogen peroxide but if you feel that it works for you, that's great.  Don't misunderstand me - I think we're basically agreeing with one another.  My main point was to make sure that folks knew there were caveats to the safety of hydrogen peroxide.  That's all.

 

As I said upthread, I am not a germ-o-phobe. I feed my dog a raw (meat) diet so have daily contact with raw meat, chicken, and fish. When such items are in contact with food prep surfaces I want to make sure I kill all the potential pathogens, rather than "most of them" because we all know leaving a small subset of the most resistant pathogens behind to reproduce is a good way to produce "super-bugs."

 

Alternatives like bleach or harsh chemical disinfectants (Lysol, etc) are much more problematic than the vinegar-peroxide combo, which breaks down rapidly with no toxic remnants.

 

I don't disagree that peroxide applied to mucous membranes or open wounds can cause some tissue damage. That is true. But as a way to disinfect counter, cutting boards, and sinks I don't believe there is anything that is safer or more effective.

 

Bill

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Dicentra

Dicentra

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As I said upthread, I am not a germ-o-phobe. I feed my dog a raw (meat) diet so have daily contact with raw meat, chicken, and fish. When such items are in contact with food prep surfaces I want to make sure I kill all the potential pathogens, rather than "most of them" because we all know leaving a small subset of the most resistant pathogens behind to reproduce is a good way to produce "super-bugs."

 

 

This interests me and I'll have to do some more digging in my old uni textbooks.  From what I understand (and remember), hydrogen peroxide alone wouldn't leave behind a small subset - as it's a powerful cell membrane disruptor, it doesn't discriminate between one type of cell membrane and another so it doesn't kill bacteria discriminately like antibiotics do.  I don't think one would need to have this particular worry (leaving behind the resistant members of a bacterial population and creating "super-bugs") if one was using only hydrogen peroxide but I'll have to do some more research to be certain.

 

We're on a farm with a shallow, dug well and livestock.  We don't drink our well water but we use it for everything else, including showering and brushing our teeth.  When we've tested it, it often has measurable coliform levels and I don't tend to worry about it.  I'm not a germ-o-phobe, either. :)

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heartlikealion

heartlikealion

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Just be sure to NOT rebottle peroxide into your own translucent spray bottles. It is sensitive to changing temperatures and light and will lose its efficacy.

 

I only use it for things that really need to be disinfected- like surfaces that I have cut raw poultry on or when someone's vomit misses the toilet in the bathroom. Otherwise I mostly use Method or a mixture of dawn and vinegar.

Yeah, a sales associate tried to make this suggestion to me when I realized they didn't have the spray bottle at Target. I told her I couldn't just move it into any spray bottle. I got ours at Wal-Mart.

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Katy

Katy

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The only thing that kills norovirus or rotovirus is bleach.  Use bleach in bathrooms and kitchen counters after raw meat, and anywhere that's color safe if someone's had stomach flu in your house.

 

It also bothers me that this is being taken very seriously when we don't even know what kind of bacteria it is.  It might be a probiotic.  If it kills the good bacteria but not the bad, it's not good for anyone.

 

ETA:  if bleach is properly diluted to 10% it breaks down to salt water.

Edited by Katy
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Spy Car

Spy Car

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The only thing that kills norovirus or rotovirus is bleach. Use bleach in bathrooms and kitchen counters after raw meat, and anywhere that's color safe if someone's had stomach flu in your house.

 

It also bothers me that this is being taken very seriously when we don't even know what kind of bacteria it is. It might be a probiotic. If it kills the good bacteria but not the bad, it's not good for anyone.

 

ETA: if bleach is properly diluted to 10% it breaks down to salt water.

A simple search will show that CDC recommends either chlorine bleach or hydrogen peroxide to kill norovirus. I'd rather use peroxide than be expose to chlorine.

 

Even Clorox makes a hydrogen peroxide based spray marketed at killing norovirus. So chlorine bleach isn't the only alternative.

 

Bill

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