Mimm Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I haven't read any replies. But if you are going to participate in a group voluntarily, please follow the rules. I am part of a (not drop off) co-op with a very strict no cell phone policy for the students. I think the rule is silly, over the top and the consequences are ridiculous. We follow the rule though. We choose to be there, so we follow it. And as someone who follows the rules, I am SICK TO DEATH of hearing the leadership have to beg everyone to follow the rule! I'll spare you further ranting because I'm pretty sure in a thread this length, people have covered everything I have to say about the issue. :p 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto10blessings Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Well I'd be one to definitely send the cell phone. Hidden and definitely off. With strict instruction not to turn it on unless she needed to call me. I can understand not wanting kids playing it messing with cell phones, but if I want my kid to call me she needs to have a way to call me and I don't see how a turned off cell phone would harm anything 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If I knew my daughter was responsible in her use of it, I'd let her bring it and just keep it in her purse, off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicianmom Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I see a market for phone holders that look like maxi-pad wrappers.... 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 If your daughter has a menstrual cycle issue, do you want her to have to ask her male coach to use his phone and explain why? Yes. I think learning to ask for help even if you're feeling embarrassed is a very useful skill to learn. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yes. I think learning to ask for help even if you're feeling embarrassed is a very useful skill to learn. Seriously disagree. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Seriously disagree. Because...? One of my kids ran off in the grocery store a couple of months ago. I was embarrassed. Did that mean that I didn't ask some store employee for help? No. I swallowed my pride, walked up to the first person I saw who looked like he worked there, and said "I lost my son". He was retrieved pretty quickly. Maybe I should have given him a cell phone so I could have just found him by tracking his phone's GPS signal (although I think the resolution is not good enough to help much since I already knew he was in the store). Besides, all a 12yo girl would have to say to a male coach would probably be "I need a phone because my period" and the guy would probably make her stop talking and hand over his phone ASAP. Most probably don't want to hear *any* details. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yes. I think learning to ask for help even if you're feeling embarrassed is a very useful skill to learn. disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I don't think I'd be any more comfortable having to ask something embarrassing now if I'd done it more often as a kid. I have a different list of embarrassing or hard things to ask now than I did then, but I do what I can to prepare so I don't get into situations like that and I'll do what I can to help my children avoid them too. I do think children need to learn how to deal with what might come up in their lives, but I think avoiding problems is a useful strategy too, not just learning how to deal with whatever comes up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The "modest dress" lecture always pisses me off (for many reasons). This feels like an extension of that. I'm the Mom; the stretch marks mean that I get to make the decisions. You get to make the decision, to go or not to go. But if you go to an event that others are hosting, then you are agreeing to abide by the rules. I don't know the people you are dealing with, and maybe they are nuts, but I can't help but wonder if the rules they have are the results of problems they've had. I have personally had to have the "modest dress" lecture with some local girls who came over to go swimming at our pool in what amounted to dental floss. I'm not the mom, but it is my event and I get to decide what the parameters are. The mom gets to decide to send them or not. Do I think there is any real harm in your daughter dropping a phone in the bottom of her purse and leaving it there? Well, maybe. Assuming that she obeys your instruction to actually leave it there (which, IME, at least 50% of kids will not), being in cahoots with her on defying the rules could set her up to already not respect the people running the event. That sets her up for not having the best behavior at the event and not being the best guest she can be. I guess I'm just coming at this from a different perspective. IMO, I tend to give the adults the benefit of the doubt, and I work very hard not to speak badly of them in front of my kids, even if I don't think too well of them. If I thought so badly of them that I had to talk to my kids about it, I wouldn't be sending them to anything that adult is hosting. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I don't think I'd be any more comfortable having to ask something embarrassing now if I'd done it more often as a kid. I have a different list of embarrassing or hard things to ask now than I did then, but I do what I can to prepare so I don't get into situations like that and I'll do what I can to help my children avoid them too. I do think children need to learn how to deal with what might come up in their lives, but I think avoiding problems is a useful strategy too, not just learning how to deal with whatever comes up. I never said I was against having a tampon in her purse. :) I do think having been through at least *some* embarrassing experiences gives someone the opportunity to learn that they're not the end of the world. I don't think it really matters what those are. But when I lost my son in the grocery store event happened, my first thought (aside from grrrr) was "well, I can check that off the parenting uh-ohs everybody has happen to them" list. I really do think it's kind of like scraping your knee. To most little kids, a scraped knee is a big deal, but as they get older, they learn that it's really not a big deal. Of course, some people never learn that lesson, but trying to prevent every knee scrape is not healthy in my opinion. Avoiding problems is good, so long as it doesn't get to the point where people don't know how to behave if there is a problem, or they are so obsessively trying to avoid problems it turns into paranoia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I never said I was against having a tampon in her purse. :) I do think having been through at least *some* embarrassing experiences gives someone the opportunity to learn that they're not the end of the world. I don't think it really matters what those are. But when I lost my son in the grocery store event happened, my first thought (aside from grrrr) was "well, I can check that off the parenting uh-ohs everybody has happen to them" list. I really do think it's kind of like scraping your knee. To most little kids, a scraped knee is a big deal, but as they get older, they learn that it's really not a big deal. Of course, some people never learn that lesson, but trying to prevent every knee scrape is not healthy in my opinion. Avoiding problems is good, so long as it doesn't get to the point where people don't know how to behave if there is a problem, or they are so obsessively trying to avoid problems it turns into paranoia. I think I see a difference between doing something hard and doing something embarrassing. I see value in doing hard things, but things that are just embarrassing? I'll try to help my kids skip those every time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 When you hand a minor child over to any adult(s) in charge of an event, you are delegating some measure of authority. That is why they can set rules at all for the event. I don't understand sending kids to an event when you are not willing to do that. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I think I see a difference between doing something hard and doing something embarrassing. I see value in doing hard things, but things that are just embarrassing? I'll try to help my kids skip those every time. But asking for help when you're feeling embarrassed *is* hard. Or at least for a lot of people it is. I think it is useful to be able to take something you feel embarrassed about, realize that everybody has embarrassing stuff happen at times, and to shrug it off (and sooner or later be able to laugh about it). That doesn't mean that I'd send a kid to camp without supplies etc knowing that her period is expected to happen during that week - I don't see value in artificially creating embarrassing experiences. I just don't think it's a such a big deal that it warrants breaking cell phone rules for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I would send the phone AND I would not feel guilty. Don't tell anyone, but I also sent my son to a class with an "illegal" ibuprofen in his pocket in case his headache came back during the 9 hours he was gone.I am a rule follower. I read instructions. But even I can see some rules are just stupid and I prefer to follow them in spirit rather than to the letter. And a silenced phone in a purse produces the same results that the organizers were going for. Not only that, even if they were reasonable people and I trusted them 110%, I'd still send the phone. Because I'm a rebel like that. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I have let my child have an against-the-rules phone. Not being in school, she didn't have an IEP, but if she had it would say that she needs to be able to contact her mom if she begins to come unglued mentally. The Girl Scout counselors would not understand this. Nor would the Youth Group leaders. So, she took her phone with her but never used it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I'd ignore the rule completely. There is no way I'd send my kid someplace with people I don't know without her having a way to contact me on her own. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 When you hand a minor child over to any adult(s) in charge of an event, you are delegating some measure of authority. That is why they can set rules at all for the event. I don't understand sending kids to an event when you are not willing to do that. Because sometimes the child's need for the event outweighs the need for the adults to control something as non-invasive as a silenced cell phone in a purse. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Because sometimes the child's need for the event outweighs the need for the adults to control something as non-invasive as a silenced cell phone in a purse. I have absolutely no problem with the child's need for the phone. I have a problem with putting the child under the authority of adults who the parent doesn't trust to make reasonable rules. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I have absolutely no problem with the child's need for the phone. I have a problem with putting the child under the authority of adults who the parent doesn't trust to make reasonable rules. I'm sure Moxie wouldn't send her dd if she thought the girl was in danger. I trust the Moxie enough to gauge that situation and make the right call. So if sending her dd with a silenced cell phone in a purse makes it comfortable enough for both Mom & dd, that, to me, is a better choice than not sending her dd at all--especially since she's said that activities are limited and her dd has been looking forward to the activity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I was driving down highway 20 in Iowa a few years back when a tornado hit a boyscout camp. I remember hearing on the news shortly thereafter how thankful they were that a boy broke the rule and had a cell phone in his pocket. He could call for help and no one else could. This is a stupid rule. While I'm pretty strict with the few rules I do have, I talk to the kids a lot about when it's appropriate to break rules. For a myriad of reasons, this rule is one of them. And frankly, unless this was an exceptionally fantastic opportunity I doubt I'd be super interested in an event that had "modesty" rules either, and I'm Christian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I was driving down highway 20 in Iowa a few years back when a tornado hit a boyscout camp. I remember hearing on the news shortly thereafter how thankful they were that a boy broke the rule and had a cell phone in his pocket. He could call for help and no one else could. This is a stupid rule. While I'm pretty strict with the few rules I do have, I talk to the kids a lot about when it's appropriate to break rules. For a myriad of reasons, this rule is one of them. And frankly, unless this was an exceptionally fantastic opportunity I doubt I'd be super interested in an event that had "modesty" rules either, and I'm Christian. The leaders of that troop must have been idiots not to have phones themselves. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The leaders of that troop must have been idiots not to have phones themselves. Why? Back in the day we had no phones when we went camping. :tongue_smilie: I'm being silly but I don't really see why it is okay for the adults to have phones but not the children/teens. If all are keeping them put away unless necessary there is no difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The leaders of that troop must have been idiots not to have phones themselves. I don't know that they didn't. I think the boys were split up in three different parts of the camp. I don't recall all the details except that there were deaths. And someone was saved because a boy was able to call 911. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Here's an article on it, but they don't cover the cell phone angle. I think I heard that on the radio while driving. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/us/13tornado.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamajag Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 No, not wrong. My daughter takes her cell all sorts of places that forbid them. She leaves it silenced in her purse. She's had to use it for her medical issues. Not sorry in the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I'm sure Moxie wouldn't send her dd if she thought the girl was in danger. I trust the Moxie enough to gauge that situation and make the right call. So if sending her dd with a silenced cell phone in a purse makes it comfortable enough for both Mom & dd, that, to me, is a better choice than not sending her dd at all--especially since she's said that activities are limited and her dd has been looking forward to the activity. I was just sharing a guiding principle, if you will, to how I choose adult monitored activities for my children, which goes to explain the opinion I had on why I would ask the leaders to clarify their rule (which was my first shared post in this thread) and then why I would opt out of the event when Moxie shared more information. I actually don't have any strong feelings about what Moxie decides to do for her dd (Sorry, Moxie) as I've never actually met her and don't really know the specific circumstances of the event. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJoy Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I think the message we're seeing in this thread (or the closest we'll get to Hive Mind unanimity) is this: A. Possession of phones (or not) is a parental decision to be based on the family's factors, but B. How and whether minor children use them at group events is very reasonably the decision of the adults in charge. At least, that's what I think most of us would like to see, instead of an outright ban. It should be that any phones visible are immediately confiscated, to be returned at the end of the trip, but if a young person has a phone in her purse it should only be her business as long as she keeps it private. Obviously some are in favor of phone bans but it always seems to me in these threads that the majority would like rules on behavior, not on possession. In a perfect world this would be great. The jr. high I taught at allowed phones to be carried and used only on breaks (15 min. in morning, 1 hr. lunch, 15 min. afternoon). I thought this was a very reasonable policy, but I still had kids trying to sneak texts during class and even tests! In a school setting we had an ongoing relationship and could deal with this without outright banning. In a camp setting it makes sense to me to just outright ban them because with all the other things you have to be aware of when you have teens 24/7, monitoring cell phone usage (and misuse) is a big hassle. Plus if you have older leaders who aren't as aware of technology, what they think is benign usuage could be much more. It only takes one incident of "sexting" at camp or inappropriate use of internet to cause a big scandal for the organization. Even if I totally trusted my teen I wouldn't break this rule for the sake of the group. There is always the possibility of another teen stealing and misusing it too. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I was just sharing a guiding principle, if you will, to how I choose adult monitored activities for my children, which goes to explain the opinion I had on why I would ask the leaders to clarify their rule (which was my first shared post in this thread) and then why I would opt out of the event when Moxie shared more information. I actually don't have any strong feelings about what Moxie decides to do for her dd (Sorry, Moxie) as I've never actually met her and don't really know the specific circumstances of the event. Ouch, Jean, ouch. I kid!! I'm glad my drama-of-the-day isn't keeping you up nights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yes, you are wrong... but for the record, I disagree so strongly with the rule that it would be a make it or break it for me; as in, I wouldn't allow DD to attend because of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What's the deeper lesson here? Is it OK if she violates any rules you make for her, as long as she gets away with it, and she thinks they are stupid? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Ouch, Jean, ouch. I kid!! I'm glad my drama-of-the-day isn't keeping you up nights. You know I care enough to post multiple times in the thread! But ultimately I know it is up to you to decide for you and your daughter. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What's the deeper lesson here? Is it OK if she violates any rules you make for her, as long as she gets away with it, and she thinks they are stupid? Crazily enough, my dds have broken the cell phone rule in every instance since they were 11 and never felt it meant they could lie to me and get away with something. They are, sometimes embarrassingly, honest when it comes to their parents. It's not always such a dire thing. Sometimes they are able to understand how something doesn't really make sense and still be honest, good children/teens. Having a silent phone hidden away in a bag/purse doesn't make them criminals who lie to everyone. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 In a perfect world this would be great. The jr. high I taught at allowed phones to be carried and used only on breaks (15 min. in morning, 1 hr. lunch, 15 min. afternoon). I thought this was a very reasonable policy, but I still had kids trying to sneak texts during class and even tests! In a school setting we had an ongoing relationship and could deal with this without outright banning. In a camp setting it makes sense to me to just outright ban them because with all the other things you have to be aware of when you have teens 24/7, monitoring cell phone usage (and misuse) is a big hassle. Plus if you have older leaders who aren't as aware of technology, what they think is benign usuage could be much more. It only takes one incident of "sexting" at camp or inappropriate use of internet to cause a big scandal for the organization. Even if I totally trusted my teen I wouldn't break this rule for the sake of the group. There is always the possibility of another teen stealing and misusing it too. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yep, keeping a cell phone on you is no different than the old quarter in your shoe, just in case. Well, yeah, it is, because there are so many things that you can do with a cell phone, not all of which are acceptable behavior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Well, yeah, it is, because there are so many things that you can do with a cell phone, not all of which are acceptable behavior. There were unacceptable things that could be done with that quarter at a pay phone as well. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 It's wrong to break laws. It's wrong to break commandments. Even then, there are acceptable exceptions. I don't think it's automatically wrong to break a rule some organizer came up with for a week-long teen activity. I wish the world was that black and white and easy. Now, the event organizers are within their rights to have consequences for the broken rules. However, I suspect this rule was made to prevent disruptions and there are other ways to honor the spirit of this rule. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 If I don't like the teachers, the system or the rules, I don't let the kids participate. Yes. If I didn't trust the teachers to help my child communicate with me if he needed to, I wouldn't be sending him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I'd try to negotiate about this rule. If that failed, I would suck it up. But if my daughter came home and reported that all the other kids had their phones, I would have steam coming out of my ears. Because I truly hate it when we follow the rules only to find that so many other people think they are special snowflakes to whom ordinary folks' rules do not apply. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What's the deeper lesson here? Is it OK if she violates any rules you make for her, as long as she gets away with it, and she thinks they are stupid? First, I'm not concerned about a deeper lesson. My dd is a smart girl and knows I'm not giving her permission to embrace anarchy. Second, I feel like we're following the spirit of the rule by keeping the phone on silent, in her purse. Third, if there is a deeper lesson, I hope it is that it is ok to use the brain God gave you to question things that don't seem right. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The lesson in my opinion is that the safety and well-being of a child trumps rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The lesson in my opinion is that the safety and well-being of a child trumps rules. I agree with that, but... unless the child has a medical (including psychological) condition that would require instant access to 911 and parents, I don't see that leaving a child in an adult-supervised activity without a phone endangers the child's safety and well-being - unless the adults in charge are incompetent or untrustworthy, in which case.... I'm not sure, but I think if I felt the adult supervisors were incompetent and I felt my kid had to have access to a phone, I might find a way to participate in the activity myself, so I would be available. But I know that's not always possible. Or, I might see if I could get other parents to join me in requesting that they change the rule, as it seems unnecessary and a burden on the participants. I get that that's not always workable either. BTW one of my kids carries an epi-pen for food allergies. A camp she goes to every summer has a rule that all medications must be left with the nurse. But we talked to the nurse and my daughter was given permission to keep her epi-pen on her person. A spare was left with the nurse. (The camp also had some.) It was really simple to get permission to circumvent the rule because there was a need for it. If they had said no, she wouldn't have been able to go. (Of course there is always the possibility of a natural disaster as mentioned above. There is no way to plan for every possible danger.) I'm not unsympathetic. But I do think that selectively obeying rules and ignoring the ones we don't like sends a weird message to our kids. I think about the years I lived in Oregon, where fireworks that shot up in the air were illegal. I always wondered what the people who went to Washington to buy fireworks to shoot off at home on Independence Day told their kids about their law-breaking. And yes, I get that a rule and a law are not the same thing! :001_smile: 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I'm not unsympathetic. But I do think that selectively obeying rules and ignoring the ones we don't like sends a weird message to our kids. Speaking generally now and not specifically in reply to you, people age 12 have already figured out hypocrisy exists, even among people they know and love best. I think that learning to question authority is part of learning to know what to do when you don't know what to do. This is a huge skill that I think is underrated and overestimated and generally ignored because it's assumed to have been learned adequately. Any mother of a child who never learned this rule through natural social conditioning will know that this skill takes lots of practice, lots of discerning minute details (recognizing minute detail!), lots of prediction, lots of connecting lots of dots no one has told you to connect. There's actually a lot of cognitive work going on here, and like any skill, the more you practice, the more skilled you become. Moxie and her family have their own micro culture, as we all do with our own families. Her kids are learning how to incorporate their own micro culture within the context of the larger micro culture of this group. Part of the maturation process is knowing how to be flexible when conflict arises between cultural expectations. Bringing the phone or not bringing the phone represents a few of these dots being connected. I don't think it's a matter of outright hypocrisy because there are obviously Big Important Stuff that each family identifies on their own terms, things that other micro cultures like social groups don't accept in the same vein. That doesn't make one party or one decision better or worse, imo, but it does mean that Moxie can teach her child how to identify when her family's Big Important Stuff doesn't conform with another person, or group's Big Important Stuff, and how to resolve that conflict in a socially acceptable way. The extension of this of course is when the 12 year old develops her own Big Important Stuff, and learns [hopefully peaceful, friendly] conflict resolution when her immediate family's Big Important Stuff doesn't conform to her own. It's all a part of learning, and strict, unconditional obedience to authority stunts that maturity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 ....so many other people think they are special snowflakes to whom ordinary folks' rules do not apply. I'm going to try and think of the people who bring their dogs to the lake -- and even let them run around, calling out, after them, "They won't hurt!" -- as "special snowflakes" now. There are at least two signs as you enter the park that say "No dogs allowed." Maybe that will help ease the tension I feel when pooch comes running up to our blanket, sniffing around. (But I'm not hopeful it will work.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What's the deeper lesson here? Is it OK if she violates any rules you make for her, as long as she gets away with it, and she thinks they are stupid? I teach my kids that ANY TIME their judgment says that something isn't right or isn't safe, yes, they are empowered to use their best judgment. What if an adult gives them rules about keeping something secret that is a set up to cover abuse? What if a friend is "secretly" being abused, secretly pregnant, or drunk and about to drive a child home? What if they're in a fraternity that's just brought in a new racist song that they disagree with but the "rule" is to be loyal to the brotherhood above all else? Learning to do what is right rather than following instructions & being blindly obedient is an important thing to teach. And for that matter I think even Jesus taught that not being a slave to rules but doing what is right is more important than following hypocritical rules. If my kids had been attending that school that strip searched kids a few months back to figure out who had pooped on the gym floor, I am positive NONE of them would have submitted to that, they would have gone down kicking and screaming and I would be very happy about them being "disobedient." I've heard a lot of information on how kids who are blindly obedient and who are not the type to stand up for themselves are more likely to be abused. And kids who are the type to get abused are very likely to be abused by more than one person, oftentimes two or three people. If I was doing something that was unsafe or morally wrong, you can bet I would want my kid to stand up to me. I've never known a kid who abused the best judgment about safety rule. Best judgments about safety are sort of the opposite of disobedience. We specifically teach courage as a virtue, and the courage to do what's right even if you might suffer negative consequences is one of them. I agree with the earlier post about playing the game - no one really cares if a kid has a cell phone as long as it's put away, turned off, and not disruptive. There is a time to make something a hill to die on (abuse, racism) vs just playing the game (hiding a cell phone or a pocket knife). This is not a hill to die on, and no one is hurt if DD just pretends to follow this rule. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I would clarify it. DD is doing a summer program with a no-phone rule, but what they really mean is that they don't want kids playing on phones instead of interacting with each other, and that they don't want photos posted online because of privacy concerns. They are fine with kids taking their phone with them (especially if they're flying to camp by themselves and may need to contact parents or the camp staff on the way, which some of the kids are doing) as long as the phone stays in the suitcase all week when there ARE responsible adults there who have a phone the child can use if they need it. That seems very reasonable to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What's the deeper lesson here? Is it OK if she violates any rules you make for her, as long as she gets away with it, and she thinks they are stupid? Yes. Because a huge life lesson is navigating what qualifies as just authority and just rules and that does indeed mean learning that some people don't have it and some rules aren't worth following exactly or even at all. No, just being with someone doesn't mean you have to do what they say to do or not do. Even if they are an adult and you are a kid. Even if they are in a position of authority. Sometimes even if they are a parent. Parents get the privledge of having hopefully built up enough trust that even when they seem unreasonable in their request, a kid should consider they might have good reason and go with it anyways. Or not. Kids break parental rules all the time. Sometimes there are consequences. Sometimes the kid teaches the parent the unreasonableness of the rule. Strangers I have never met do not get that privledge with my children. That said, if my kid was flaunting it or in any other manner being rude disrespectful, losing their phone would be the least of their concerns when I picked them up. Because consequences. Not following a particuliar rule does not necessarily mean being rude and disrespectful and thinking they never have to follow rules ever. There's considerable middle ground between bratty anarchy and to the letter of every rule rigidity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yes. Because a huge life lesson is navigating what qualifies as just authority and just rules and that does indeed mean learning that some people don't have it and some rules aren't worth following exactly or even at all. No, just being with someone doesn't mean you have to do what they say to do or not do. Even if they are an adult and you are a kid. Even if they are in a position of authority. Sometimes even if they are a parent. Parents get the privledge of having hopefully built up enough trust that even when they seem unreasonable in their request, a kid should consider they might have good reason and go with it anyways. Or not. Kids break parental rules all the time. Sometimes there are consequences. Sometimes the kid teaches the parent the unreasonableness of the rule. Strangers I have never met do not get that privledge with my children. That said, if my kid was flaunting it or in any other manner being rude disrespectful, losing their phone would be the least of their concerns when I picked them up. Because consequences. Not following a particuliar rule does not necessarily mean being rude and disrespectful and thinking they never have to follow rules ever. There's considerable middle ground between bratty anarchy and to the letter of every rule rigidity. Yes. Didn't we have a thread where a parent told a child (not her own, one of our boardies' kids) to ride in the cargo area of an SUV because there wasn't space in the seats for the number of kids in the vehicle? What happens when a teens' boss asks him/her to do something dishonest? Are they to bow to the person "in authority"? I hope my children learn the discretion (even at 12) to skirt unreasonable rules and stick to their ethics (guided by myself) even when those in authority are a little nutso. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 What's the deeper lesson here? Is it OK if she violates any rules you make for her, as long as she gets away with it, and she thinks they are stupid? Oh for me it's clear: the deeper lesson here is "question authority". It's what I do. It's how I raise my kids. Think, think hard, think about consequence, think about your conscience, think about your ethical principles, think about the very simple "what if everyone did this, would the world still 'work'?" & then make a decision & live with it. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Oh for me it's clear: the deeper lesson here is "question authority". It's what I do. It's how I raise my kids. Think, think hard, think about consequence, think about your conscience, think about your ethical principles, think about the very simple "what if everyone did this, would the world still 'work'?" & then make a decision & live with it. Yep, blind obedience is not a goal of mine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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