creekland Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I almost never ate breakfast or lunch at school for the same reason. I wouldn't have taken anything offered either. Being poor is complicated. Sometimes the only thing they own is pride, and they hang on to it to their detriment sometimes. :( ETA: and to be fair. You get used to it. I STILL have to force myself to eat before 4pm. I just don't feel hunger pains until around 4-5pm. I really enjoyed longer recesses from skipping lunches too. Really. But if they are hungry, I'm sorry they don't eat what's offerred. :( I worry about their growing brains and bodies when they don't eat. Some teachers keep hard candy around and have it as free to anyone who wants some in their classes. This eliminates the "poor" factor, but other than calories, I'm not sure what candy provides compared to something with substance. I do understand the pride aspect and I try my darnedest to help them keep that while still getting something to eat. I don't want them to feel poor. I want their brains/bodies to grow as they should. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 This is an excellent point that deserved to be reiterated. The mindset, planning, strategy, etc that most posters on this board implement in their lives (as represented in these discussions, anyway!) is far outside the norm. I don't even know what that means. Really I don't. It *sounds* rather derogatory. I have learned a lot the hard way. Maybe it is outside the norm to learn? Or outside the norm to be able to implement what was learned? Or to think in terms of consequences or? Seriously not being snarky. Have no clue what that meant. Every person I've ever met has thought about how to improve. Their life, their finances, their relationships. Now I will freely admit I've heard and seen some crack pot crazy crap thought up. Yep to the inth degree on that. They often don't know who to ask or have someone to help. And I'll admit, I've often struggled with both ends of that as well. But most of what is being discussed in this thread is not new ground shattering discoveries outside the norm discoveries? ugh... Then again.... Ugh. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Oh, are you paying? I can assure $2,000 plus travel is out of reach for myself and many others. Well, if you wanted to go, there is a way. We typically go for 12 days. Our condos are $250 per week including taxes and fees, so $500 for the condo. Disney has homeschool days, so our tickets were around $1,200 for 8 day hoppers with waterparks and more. Sometimes travel is included for free as we tack our trip on to DH's conference in November. This year we couldn't, so gas was around $300. Parking $140. Food we stick to our regular grocery budget and staying in a condo gives us a kitchen. So, $0 additional for many of our meals. We also spend about 2 months' budget on eating out. So, we save up by not eating out as much the month or two before. So, $0 additional as it is clearly marked in our regular budget before the trip. Under $2,200 for 5 of us for up to 2 full weeks. We can sometimes do it for $2,000 if DH's work pays for the travel (they actually give him mileage, so it works out to cover gas, parking, and sometimes a meal out.) DH has paid vacation, so no vacation loss. And if we go during his conference, the first week he is working anyway. Since we are talking about middle class, I assume most middle class workers have some sort of paid vacation time. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter...When we first move to the states, we rely on my parents to pay for my kids clothes, food, medical, toys, stroller, car seat and even our refrigerator which was about $600. My parents paid for part of the fuel too. We had two years of living hand to mouth eventhough hubby's pay before tax would be at the low end of lower middle. Rent here has hit above $2k for a one bedroom apt. $3k++ might get someone a rental 2bedroom townhome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I worry about their growing brains and bodies when they don't eat. Some teachers keep hard candy around and have it as free to anyone who wants some in their classes. This eliminates the "poor" factor, but other than calories, I'm not sure what candy provides compared to something with substance. I do understand the pride aspect and I try my darnedest to help them keep that while still getting something to eat. I don't want them to feel poor. I want their brains/bodies to grow as they should. Ugh. Hard candy is about the worst thing to give them. Right up there with soda. They likely lack decent if any dental care. But it's cheaper and easier to give than keeping a basket of fresh fruit I guess. I wasn't suggesting you were doing anything wrong or purposeful to hurt prides. I'm sure you aren't. But they are likely hyper aware of it and that makes it touchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 NM, I wil be the bigger person here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Okay. Let's avoid a Disney debacle please? We were having a decent discussion. I hope we keep having it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Do you really think that anyone who really wants to can come up with $2,000? Sorry to have pushed a button. Please let it drop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So...curious...does anyone here not have disposable income at all, after all actual needs ( shelter, health, food, utilities, transport, education ) are met ? It seems there's an assumption that the only difference between being working class and middle class is what the working class choses to spend its extra money on. That those with 'middle class attititudes' will spend it on education and travel and other worthy things, and those with 'working class attitudes' spend it on toys, cigarettes and beer. Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter... Well, I had negative net for a long time. We still are paycheck to paycheck and less than that when I don't get child support. It's balancing how late you can pay bills. I buy all of our "extras" when we get tax money or if dh actually manages to get overtime. I buy bulk and pay ahead (violin) to get us through the year. I definitely don't have saving money. Fritter money? Eh. I'm bad with finances, so I usually regret it, but I don't deny myself a used book on Amazon once in awhile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So...curious...does anyone here not have disposable income at all, after all actual needs ( shelter, health, food, utilities, transport, education ) are met ? It seems there's an assumption that the only difference between being working class and middle class is what the working class choses to spend its extra money on. That those with 'middle class attititudes' will spend it on education and travel and other worthy things, and those with 'working class attitudes' spend it on toys, cigarettes and beer. Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter... We have very little lef after paying our bills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upward Journey Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't even know what that means. Really I don't. It *sounds* rather derogatory. I have learned a lot the hard way. Maybe it is outside the norm to learn? Or outside the norm to be able to implement what was learned? Or to think in terms of consequences or? Seriously not being snarky. Have no clue what that meant. Every person I've ever met has thought about how to improve. Their life, their finances, their relationships. Now I will freely admit I've heard and seen some crack pot crazy crap thought up. Yep to the inth degree on that. They often don't know who to ask or have someone to help. And I'll admit, I've often struggled with both ends of that as well. But most of what is being discussed in this thread is not new ground shattering discoveries outside the norm discoveries? ugh... Then again.... Ugh. That is not what I meant when I wrote the post that was being quoted. Of course people in the lower/working class want to improve their lot just as much as the next guy. Maybe it was presumptuous to assume that most everyone here on the boards, even if they're struggling financially, thinks more like the middle class/upper class. Idk. We're all very focused on education, that's why we're here! Lots of us are struggling financially to make ends meet right now. But despite that, we're focused on educating our kids. That's not what I see/hear when I'm out and about, except when I'm down by the university or with other educated folks. My experiences could be unique to me, I freely admit that. When I sit and listen to the lower/working class around me, I do not have a lot in common with them besides our financial struggles. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upward Journey Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So...curious...does anyone here not have disposable income at all, after all actual needs ( shelter, health, food, utilities, transport, education ) are met ? It seems there's an assumption that the only difference between being working class and middle class is what the working class choses to spend its extra money on. That those with 'middle class attititudes' will spend it on education and travel and other worthy things, and those with 'working class attitudes' spend it on toys, cigarettes and beer. Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter... Well I know I wasn't thinking about what extra money is spent on at all. I was thinking more about what we talk about with our kids around the table, how we try to steer them through life, that kind of stuff. I'm pretty sure that everyone, in every class, spends more than they should, on things that they shouldn't, once in a while :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 That is not what I meant when I wrote the post that was being quoted. Of course people in the lower/working class want to improve their lot just as much as the next guy. Maybe it was presumptuous to assume that most everyone here on the boards, even if they're struggling financially, thinks more like the middle class/upper class. Idk. We're all very focused on education, that's why we're here! Lots of us are struggling financially to make ends meet right now. But despite that, we're focused on educating our kids. That's not what I see/hear when I'm out and about, except when I'm down by the university or with other educated folks. My experiences could be unique to me, I freely admit that. When I sit and listen to the lower/working class around me, I do not have a lot in common with them besides our financial struggles. Ahhhh. Okay then. That's almost another topic I think. It's been discussed here a lot too I think. I don't know why so very many parents aren't more interested in their kids education. I tend to think it is either years of living in crisis mode and or feeling powerless and inept about it. And truth is, in many ways they often are powerless about it. I often don't feel I have anything to discuss with anyone of any demographic. So I don't know what that's about. I figure I'm just a square peg. That used to bother me more. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So...curious...does anyone here not have disposable income at all, after all actual needs ( shelter, health, food, utilities, transport, education ) are met ? It seems there's an assumption that the only difference between being working class and middle class is what the working class choses to spend its extra money on. That those with 'middle class attititudes' will spend it on education and travel and other worthy things, and those with 'working class attitudes' spend it on toys, cigarettes and beer. Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter... I lived at that point for years. It's only since October 2014 (maybe even November, when the paychecks started) that I have been able to save for retirement, pay for health insurance, and not have to "watch" every penny at the grocery store. This week is "tight" until Friday, but in the past, that meant NO grocery shopping and worries about gas and being late on bills. Today tight means the fridge (and freezer) have more than enough food until Friday and my bills are paid. Just today, I went by the Vision retail place to order my glasses to replace the ones totaled in the car wreck (nearly 18 months ago). Even with insurance, the cost is hundreds! I have the luxury now of an HSA and the luxury of being able to fund it. Living for years with little to no disposable income changed me dramatically. I get it. (ETA: The ONLY reason things have changed is that I was able to get a full time weekend job in addition to my full time regular job. That is 1) luck 2) because of education and training I invested in 3) because I am willing to work 7 days a week). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I thought thread was about certain segments on a chart. They all have labels but really the labels don't have anything to do with ultimate contentment, family love etc. I definitely don't have the top 10% label. I've worked for some of the top 10%. Some were content and happy and functional. Some were unhappy and dysfunctional. I think you will find that with any label of the chart. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Well I know I wasn't thinking about what extra money is spent on at all. I was thinking more about what we talk about with our kids around the table, how we try to steer them through life, that kind of stuff. I'm pretty sure that everyone, in every class, spends more than they should, on things that they shouldn't, once in a while :) I know I talk more about money with my kids than most I know. And I talk very differently about it too. Especially how we talk about debt, jobs, education, family wrt to money.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I thought thread was about certain segments on a chart. They all have labels but really the labels don't have anything to do with ultimate contentment, family love etc. I definitely don't have the top 10% label. I've worked for some of the top 10%. Some were content and happy and functional. Some were unhappy and dysfunctional. I think you will find that with any label of the chart. I agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Is this gross income or net? Because my dh teaches and we actually bring home about 3/4 of what he makes without counting insurance or anything. That's all union fees, required retirement contributions we have no power over, taxes, etc. So that puts our take home in working class but gross income in lower middle. And that's if you don't take family size into consideration. Typically, these type of statistics refer to gross income, not net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 If you go further down the page, on the link with the class charts, you will see a chart that shows the breakdown of household income distribution. It is interesting, in light of the discussion in this thread. Hoping it copies in a readable manner for those who are interested. If not, follow the link, and go about half way down the page. Household income distribution Bottom 10% Bottom 20% Bottom 25% Middle 33% Middle 20% Top 25% Top 20% Top 5% Top 1.5% Top 1% $0 to $10,500 $0 to $18,500 $0 to $22,500 $30,000 to $62,500 $35,000 to $55,000 $77,500 and up $92,000 and up $167,000 and up $250,000 and up $350,000 and up Source: US Census Bureau, 2006; income statistics for the year 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upward Journey Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 If you go further down the page, on the link with the class charts, you will see a chart that shows the breakdown of household income distribution. It is interesting, in light of the discussion in this thread. Hoping it copies in a readable manner for those who are interested. If not, follow the link, and go about half way down the page. Household income distribution Bottom 10% Bottom 20% Bottom 25% Middle 33% Middle 20% Top 25% Top 20% Top 5% Top 1.5% Top 1% $0 to $10,500 $0 to $18,500 $0 to $22,500 $30,000 to $62,500 $35,000 to $55,000 $77,500 and up $92,000 and up $167,000 and up $250,000 and up $350,000 and up Source: US Census Bureau, 2006; income statistics for the year 2005 Are these even relevant any more? This is prior to the housing crash. eta. They are interesting. I just think that they're probably not very accurate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yes, I was agreeing with the intentional and often sacrificial nature of the wide range of parents on here, who despite sometimes immense personal difficulties focus very deeply on giving their kids a quality, thorough education. That sort of purposefulness is extraordinary, and it defies SES. We aren't really a representative sample of the general population because of educational philosophies, and I think that impacts many areas further reaching than strictly home education. Nothing derogatory was meant by it. I believe you! Really I do. I just didn't get it and it didn't *sound* that way to me. I wasn't accusing. I was asking for clarification and I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. :) Now... Hmm. I'm not sure it is as unique as we might think. I think what we teach is intentional and purposeful and glad sacrifice is different. And I do think that's a problem. Because I think many people, esp on lower incomes are doing EXACTLY what they have been taught is intentional sacrifice for their kids. They are doing what the news and the schools and sound bites all say to do. They are desperately trying to do what very often their parents did and yet managed to somehow do more with too. And yet it isn't working. And they are floundering and don't know what to do about it. And worse. There might be nothing they can do about it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Are these even relevant any more? This is prior to the housing crash. eta. They are interesting. I just think that they're probably not very accurate. Page 5 of 10 onwards have the tables. Data from 2012http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS20811.pdf 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So...curious...does anyone here not have disposable income at all, after all actual needs ( shelter, health, food, utilities, transport, education ) are met ? It seems there's an assumption that the only difference between being working class and middle class is what the working class choses to spend its extra money on. That those with 'middle class attititudes' will spend it on education and travel and other worthy things, and those with 'working class attitudes' spend it on toys, cigarettes and beer. Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter... Years ago (before kids) I was literally budgeting to the penny. My gross pay was under $33K, my effective tax rate was about 33%, and my student loan payments were over $13K per year. The balance was for rent, food, etc. I applied all sorts of strategies to avoid going bankrupt. Driving at the most efficient speed to save gas, packing pbj for my lunch every day, and various others along those lines. I had a hand-drawn spreadsheet which tracked every single penny I spent so I could budget accurately. I bought nothing except for the food I needed to eat and the gas I needed to get to work. I worked multiple jobs and shared an old apartment. In spite of all that, I eventually had to request a temporary student loan deferral and consolidate my loans in order to get back on track. I worked my butt off and also took and passed the CPA exam during that time. After several years of struggling and 2 job changes, I found my niche and got a nice raise. Finally I was making enough money to put some aside in a 401K. Since I was then in the semi-obsessive habit of pinching pennies, I kept pinching them while I paid off all my bills, helped my parents pay off their bills, and saved whatever I could after that. I was always afraid of finding myself back in a tight situation, so I kept extending out my budgeting spreadsheet with the idea of having enough money to survive until retirement should I lose my job. Now I get very little disposable cash, and I've had to dip into savings at times. But I don't have bills and I don't have big money worries. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The trouble with talking about needs met, is needs can be defined in different ways. One person might consider the need for food met if the kids have a white bread and peanut butter sandwich while someone else defines need as an organic salad. Needs for clothes can mean warm enough not to die in winter or they can mean appropriate clothing that fits well for various stuff and can be kept clean enough to be socially acceptable. If you are talking the upper definition many people don't have a lot leftover. Personally I think nutritious food is a need not just food, but I'm less fussy about clothes. To me middle class would mean home owner with mortgage, enough to pay the bills and drive decent but not fancy cars, but new but not fancy clothes . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 How many kids we have, where we live, how we live, how we school, how we shop, how we save, who works. S/O reply: I read this and my mind started going down the 'what-if' path. What if we had stopped at 4 kids (which is still a lot to many, I recognize. ;) ) What if I had gone back to work when those four kids had all left for college. Etc. on down that path. But, but, but--it literally brought tears to my eyes to think of not having our last two kids. These boys are nuts sometimes, and so much fun; they also cause me stress sometimes. :001_rolleyes: But to not have them? Oh my. It just hit me with a different impact when I read Jean's post. I have been struggling to figure out some financial issues for the future lately, and it has been kind of stressful. So to step back and look at it all from a different angle? Well, that has been good for me. Quit whining, Jaybee, and keep on trying to figure out the possibilities. Disclaimer: Jean is so right in that our decisions affect the outcome many times. This is no statement on anyone else's decision of how many kids they have or whatever--those decisions are personal--I have respect that what you have done is what you feel is best in your specific decisions, insofar as you had choices (adjustments made for those surprises in life). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Are these even relevant any more? This is prior to the housing crash. eta. They are interesting. I just think that they're probably not very accurate. I guess that has an income:expense impact for people who took out adjustable mortgages. It's certainly destroyed our net worth and "lifestyle" (we could afford a much nicer house now if we could sell our house and break even), but not our budget. Our mortgage was X when we bought our house and it's still X now that it's practically worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 When we first move to the states, we rely on my parents to pay for my kids clothes, food, medical, toys, stroller, car seat and even our refrigerator which was about $600. My parents paid for part of the fuel too. We had two years of living hand to mouth eventhough hubby's pay before tax would be at the low end of lower middle. Rent here has hit above $2k for a one bedroom apt. $3k++ might get someone a rental 2bedroom townhome. And these rent costs vs our mortgage cost makes a ton of difference. Our mortgage for our farm is less than the rent for a one bedroom where you are. The rent we charge on our 3 bedroom single family rental houses is $1150/$1200 pending which place. Lower COL areas can make a big difference on budgets and allow one to do better even with a lower income. It's why I nixed our original HCOL move when hubby was interviewing for what seemed to be a terrific salary increase (with the move). It would have been an income cut with our overall budget. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroe1 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 There are so many who can take a below average income and live a very happy, comfortable life as well as so many who can be strapped with debt and living paycheck to paycheck with a top 1% income. I am the former while DH is the latter. Knowing that, I made sure we were financially separated before and after marriage. It did not help as he still managed to get me in debt without my knowledge. But, there is almost always a way to live cheaper than one does if one is willing to go to extremes in order to build a nest egg. One can give up the 3 room apartment for a dilapidated trailer, for example. One can give up New York for a trailer park in rural Tennessee. One can give up electricity, phone service, medical care, and many other needs if one REALLY wants to do anything and everything to get out of financial entrapment. It is just that most of us have no desire to do that, and, therefore, balance financial entrapment with what we want our lifestyles to include. To justify our financial entrapment we console ourselves with excuses like I could never leave my family, my job requires my internet service, and other blah, blah, blah excuses. In reality, these excuses are just the benefits of staying in financial entrapment. So when I read articles defining and classifying income, I do not give it much thought. Show me instead articles about what kind of families live below their means and how they do it. Now you're talking. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 A men's club here takes care of this need in a way that the high school students will participate in...they supply the lunch pgm with materials for pbjs, and put them out on a table where they can be taken at any time by anyone. Its very helpful, bc the athletes will often take one since they cant get a double free/reduced lunch so no stigma, and encourages those who need it. Around here, the public schools issue cafeteria meal cards -- kids eligible for free lunches just get them; for other families they're set up as prepaid debit cards that can be "topped up" on line. They look identical for all kids, so there's no stigma. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 But, there is almost always a way to live cheaper than one does if one is willing to go to extremes in order to build a nest egg. One can give up the 3 room apartment for a dilapidated trailer, for example. One can give up New York for a trailer park in rural Tennessee. One can give up electricity, phone service, medical care, and many other needs if one REALLY wants to do anything and everything to get out of financial entrapment. It is just that most of us have no desire to do that, and, therefore, balance financial entrapment with what we want our lifestyles to include. To justify our financial entrapment we console ourselves with excuses like I could never leave my family, my job requires my internet service, and other blah, blah, blah excuses. In reality, these excuses are just the benefits of staying in financial entrapment. In some cases, one can give up medical care and then one dies, an interesting way out of financial entrapment! But often simple medical care is less expensive than major--think about treating blood pressure vs. stroke. But you know that. Personally I do not think that electricity is a luxury. It is true that many families conserve electricity for the sake of their pocket books or for environmental reasons--nothing wrong with that. But I would never suggest to a struggling family that they give up electricity to crawl out of their financial holes. Minnie, how you equate struggles to "blah, blah excuses" may be painful to some of our fellow posters. A little empathy may be needed here. 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Statistically it is right. But if you look at lifestyle of a family making that much money, they aren't typically living an extravagant lifestyle. Usually no private jets, no mansions, no live-in maids, etc. Realistically, it is just enough to be comfortable and not have major money woes. But definitely not enough to live on Malibu Drive and sport a Porche, or whatever. This. And I'll note (from personal experience) that an income in the 100-150K range is just the right amount to send your finances into turmoil when a medical crisis arises - you make far too much to qualify for any aid from the state, or special accommodations from the hospitals, but not nearly enough to cover the 60K+ still due to various medical facilities after your insurance is done paying what they will, and you account for deductibles, co-insurance rates, and things not covered by insurance (but medically necessary). 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Around here, the public schools issue cafeteria meal cards -- kids eligible for free lunches just get them; for other families they're set up as prepaid debit cards that can be "topped up" on line. They look identical for all kids, so there's no stigma. There's no stigma here for those on free/reduced lunch either - no way of knowing who's who at the lunch line, but the parents need to fill out the income form to have their kids qualify for it. Many do that, so there's no problem. A handful will not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 One can give up electricity, phone service, medical care, and many other needs if one REALLY wants to do anything and everything to get out of financial entrapment. It is just that most of us have no desire to do that, and, therefore, balance financial entrapment with what we want our lifestyles to include. To justify our financial entrapment we console ourselves with excuses like I could never leave my family, my job requires my internet service, and other blah, blah, blah excuses. In reality, these excuses are just the benefits of staying in financial entrapment. If we had given up electricity, phone service or internet, there's no way either I or my hubby could keep our jobs. That sure wouldn't have helped anything - esp "moving up" in the economic world. I don't think it would have done much for the socio part of socio-economic either. And the one thing we wouldn't give up is being together - no matter what our economics had dictated. To us, time is precious and we enjoy being together. We can live with less money until we make things work. We will never get time (together) back again. That is definitely a choice, but one we willingly made. And medical care? That all depends upon WHAT medical care I suppose. As Jane said, forgoing some of it can lead to death - not exactly the best way to escape financial issues. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 This. And I'll note (from personal experience) that an income in the 100-150K range is just the right amount to send your finances into turmoil when a medical crisis arises - you make far too much to qualify for any aid from the state, or special accommodations from the hospitals, but not nearly enough to cover the 60K+ still due to various medical facilities after your insurance is done paying what they will, and you account for deductibles, co-insurance rates, and things not covered by insurance (but medically necessary). This is definitely a biggie. I know I'm super thankful many times over that we qualified for and went with Health Share over a decade ago. We weren't positive it would work, etc, but needed to save the money at the time so went out on a limb. Now that we've been in the "really major need" category, having it all covered at 100% without worries about networks or hospitals or whatever has been priceless. Had we gone with the insurance I compared, not only would our trips not be happening, we'd be in 5 figure debt or my guys wouldn't be attending college. That OOP max is a big number, not to mention the higher monthly costs every single month. But not all qualify for health share (need to be an active Christian and healthy when joining), so it isn't an answer for everyone. Our health care solutions in this country definitely need fixing IMO. That becomes a super real concept when one sees it up close and personal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The median income in the city where I live is about 120K, I believe. But the State is a fairly reasonable COL state, with an overall much lower median. So in the bubble of my town, 150K seems fairly normal, non-elite. But within the context of the state, it might seem like that. However, my city also has a rep for financial efficiency, and a lot of people aren't showy spenders. I think it's just all relative, and very hard to nail down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 This. And I'll note (from personal experience) that an income in the 100-150K range is just the right amount to send your finances into turmoil when a medical crisis arises - you make far too much to qualify for any aid from the state, or special accommodations from the hospitals, but not nearly enough to cover the 60K+ still due to various medical facilities after your insurance is done paying what they will, and you account for deductibles, co-insurance rates, and things not covered by insurance (but medically necessary). The other issue I have heard here from families in this range is there are less options for college too until your child is an academic super star. Makes too much to qualify for grants and financial aid. But not nearly enough to pay for many private colleges outright. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Back when I still had a lot of bills, I took on the role of "utilities police" in my home. I cut the electricity and gas bills by 50% each. (I am sure they are back up now, because it's not as high on my priority list any more.) I can't agree with the mindset that frugal choices are futile because the bills are just so big. One needs to take a long-term view and set realistic and balanced goals. Every dollar saved is a dollar that doesn't have to be paid back with interest down the line. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Right, until you save a pretty significant nest egg, higher salary does not erase financial stress, because not only are you paying a large chunk out for taxes to support social programs, but you aren't eligible to benefit from most of those programs. It really is true that the cost of living goes up as income goes up, even if you maintain a modest lifestyle. And if you are upwardly mobile, chances are that you're helping your family/friends who haven't been so lucky. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Back when I still had a lot of bills, I took on the role of "utilities police" in my home. I cut the electricity and gas bills by 50% each. (I am sure they are back up now, because it's not as high on my priority list any more.) I can't agree with the mindset that frugal choices are futile because the bills are just so big. One needs to take a long-term view and set realistic and balanced goals. Every dollar saved is a dollar that doesn't have to be paid back with interest down the line. Was anyone promoting that "mindset" here? Frankly it is not one with which I am familiar! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Right, until you save a pretty significant nest egg, higher salary does not erase financial stress, because not only are you paying a large chunk out for taxes to support social programs, but you aren't eligible to benefit from most of those programs. It really is true that the cost of living goes up as income goes up, even if you maintain a modest lifestyle. And if you are upwardly mobile, chances are that you're helping your family/friends who haven't been so lucky. I don't regret paying more for social programs. I don't expect those who are eligible for them to have enough to contribute and I don't think one should have to win the birth lottery to have family members who can help. And I think on this board being frugal is looked at as a positive characteristic in general. That's completely different than giving up things like electric, phone, internet, and medical care entirely. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Was anyone promoting that "mindset" here? Frankly it is not one with which I am familiar! I've heard it from people who are so far in debt that they see no way out so they just kept spending on credit until they declared bankruptcy. Not on the boards, IRL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 How do we support our habit? We cut back on everything else. With the exception of one year that we sold investment property, we've never made more than 100K. Our income varies based upon hubby's business, but it's usually more than "average" and less than 100K. Right now, roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of what we make (after taxes) goes toward college expenses for our two boys. That's our biggest expense and while we are supporting them we are not contributing to our retirement at all. That's a choice we've made. Otherwise, our newest car is a 2003. Our older truck is a 1997. We rarely buy new clothes and generally shop for new after checking out what's in a local thrift store. Our clothes don't last us a season. They last us years of seasons. New shoes only happen when old ones are worn out - usually after they've been worn out for a bit. I shop sales for food and we have our own garden that produces a bit. No quick stops into the convenience store (or similar) for drinks or snacks. I make all my lunches to take to school. Hubby makes his when heading out on job sites with rare exceptions for when he's eating with clients. The last appliance we replaced was our clothes dryer. Our "new" one came from an estate sale and cost us $50. It's rare that we need to replace any. Hubby is awesome at fixing pretty much anything - so very few repair visits from anyone. We have one small TV. We have one computer (each). Mine is inexpensive. Hubby's is his "work horse" so is built accordingly. Our furniture is OLD - some of it still hand me downs from when we were married 26+ years ago. Other pieces came from yard sales. We did buy one new armchair this past year - our first new piece of furniture in oodles of years. We haven't bought any used "new" ones in many years either. No need. No floor in our house has been updated since we bought it 18 years ago. We should replace a couple, but they haven't quite gotten worn enough to be high enough on our "need-to" list yet. We don't care that there are holes in them. ;) Christmas/birthdays? Generally one present per person (and no extended shopping list) and a limit of around $25 per person. Hubby and I don't get each other anything by mutual consent. Health care? Our health share program covers pretty much all of our needs > $300 for just a little over $400/month for the whole family. Including non-covered visits, the dentist, and optician, I budget roughly another $150/month for needs. Sometimes we use more (per year), other times we don't use it all. Our favorite activities are free or close to it - hiking, playing board games, hanging around outdoors on our farm, etc. We do go to movies about 3 times per year I'd guess. Otherwise, we do Netflix. We do go out to eat sometimes - more now that we're empty nesting than we did with kids due to the finances of it all. And we budget for our travels. Once in a rare while we'll do something as expensive as Disney (did it last summer actually), but often we tent camp (fees tend to be < $20/night). Right now we're on one of our long trips - spending a month (Feb) on Grand Bahama. Most see a month away from home to an exotic place like the Bahamas and wonder how we do it - conjuring up wealthy thoughts. By staying in a condo (no dishwasher!) on the beach - that expense is just under $2500/month including all taxes and fees. My mom is with us, so we split that cost - $1250 for our share, not weekly, but for the whole month. (Add that to our mortgage and we're still well under HCOL typical mortgage costs!) Flights were approx $400 round trip each, so we're up to $2000 for the month in our expenses. All we have to add otherwise is food - and we'd be buying food at home too, so it's not much different. We are fortunate that my mom is splitting that cost as well - and pays for us often when we choose to eat out, but we still don't eat out daily or close to it. Lost income? There is mine, but I don't earn much subbing at school, so it's no big deal. I "lost" just as much last year when I couldn't work due to daily radiation treatments. Hubby's? If he doesn't work he doesn't earn anything, so that would be a big deal... except he works while we're here. His projects are done on the computer and he brought those along with him. The internet, e-mail, and Skype all work just fine. He'll have paychecks waiting for us at home the same as if he were there. His hours here differ so we can enjoy the beach (free) and the parks (limited cost), but he's still putting in the hours. He's working now as I type. How is that a vacation? Well... the weather and view are both incredibly better here than at home for Feb! We also spent the morning at the island's National Park. Other mornings we spend out snorkeling or beach walking. We own our own snorkel gear (purchased years ago), so no cost there at all. Then there are some savings - the heat is turned down back home and less electric is being used. Our water and sewer are free (well/septic) so there's no cost there. We are paying a house/critter sitter $350, so that should be added, but could be offset by the savings. No gas costs while we are gone. We had our car insurance cut back too since we aren't driving. So, if one were to head off to Disney or some other resort or high cost island and pay out the wazoo - yeah - we couldn't afford that either, esp if we had car payments and new (or updated) carpets/flooring or general new "stuff" we regularly bought. But a vacation like this (relatively) cheap - coupled with camping for a couple of others throughout the year and cutting back quite a bit on what others would consider necessary? It's all possible while still remaining below the top 10% income-wise. We've been doing it for years. We can't always afford month long trips, (did three with our boys - and two 3 week long trips) but we enjoy them when we can. We've already made a mutual commitment to scrape by this upcoming year to do something like this again next Feb. It's worth it to us. It's actually worth it to many around here (oodles of Canadians - a handful of Americans - occasional "others" - Germany, Poland) as we tend to be some of the short termers only staying one month - but I've never asked the others we met what their incomes were so perhaps they are in that top 10%. Or maybe they just love travel and feel it is worth skimping everywhere else to save up for it. An addict will do many things to fund their addiction. :coolgleamA: We can fund our addiction because we earn more than average and are willing to cut back plus we live in a low COL area. Hubby earns more than average because he invested in a college education years ago - we paid off a 5 digit college debt in our first 5 years of marriage - and we've been reaping the benefits since. He's also super good at his job. If we earned an average (or below) income or had chosen to live in a high COL area - no - we could not budget for these trips. Ditto that if we had more than three kids or had high medical bills that weren't covered at 100% or had parents who need our financial help. Do I feel fortunate? Absolutely. We can choose to skimp and save while looking for bargains to feed our addiction. I really like your post, so I'm quoting it, rather than merely liking it. So many things that you mentioned, we do, too. Couldn't take the month off to go to the Bahamas, because of DH's employment situation, but we work hard to cut back and stretch so that we can do some fun things, even with a salary that's purchasing power has decreased by 25% over the past 12 years. I recently looked at the inflation calculator with my DH's salary, and I thought, no wonder we're feeling the pinch. Well, that and two teenage-ish boys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 So...curious...does anyone here not have disposable income at all, after all actual needs ( shelter, health, food, utilities, transport, education ) are met ? I think this is impossible to differentiate. Because if you ask does anyone have more in basic bills than income, the answer can be yes, and yet the "basic" bills can be higher. Which car? Which house? What food? Education -defined as a "good" school, state university, or community college? It becomes almost impossible to discern as someone posted here who makes $30,000 per year can be debt free and it would tank someone else, kwim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So even though a lot us may be living lower class or working class lifestyles, we don't "think" like lower or working class folks. Yep, it's that ol' socio-economic status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 When we first move to the states, we rely on my parents to pay for my kids clothes, food, medical, toys, stroller, car seat and even our refrigerator which was about $600. My parents paid for part of the fuel too. We had two years of living hand to mouth eventhough hubby's pay before tax would be at the low end of lower middle. Rent here has hit above $2k for a one bedroom apt. $3k++ might get someone a rental 2bedroom townhome. Those figures boggle my mind. In 2008 we rented an old, tiny, wonderful farmhouse for $600/month. A year later we moved to Oregon where we were challenged by laws regarding children per sleeping space and finally found a very nice house for just under $2k per month. Blessedly the job transfer made a cost of living adjustment from Midwest to west coast. But your numbers I can't wrap my head around. Do people not move because it's simply too expensive to move? We made the choice to come back to the Midwest but it wasn't a hard decision as the company paid that bill. But I would think in this day and age someone could find jobs online so they could go to a lower cost of living? If housing is that high, EVERYTHING is high, gas, food, it's nuts. I've enjoyed this conversation actually I would agree more kiddos is more expensive but I suspect. It nearly the difference folks think. I have some outfits Cate (2) will wear that came from Liz (13). Food is more and medical. And I think I just came full circle again with medical in my discussion again. I'm incredibly grateful for the medical care we enjoy in this country but wow those resulting bills. I can see, now that everyone is talking, how things have changed over different salaries over years. The game used to be Which Noodle to Stretch Tonight's Meal? And now we mostly use veggies to grow meals. But, yes, I can see how things have changed if I really think on it, but I must consciously THINK about it and I have those past experiences to realize the ways I used to keep a tighter budget. And I think that's why people who have never had a small budget can't relate, it's not a lack of empathy or compassion. They've simply not done things like water down every kind of soap in the house to make it last, never unscrewed some of the light bulbs so kids can't leave them on ;), keep the water heater turned way down, or not go to a free activity because of gas cost. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Excuse the typos. (Blush.) That long of a post was hard to type on a phone. Another example of having something one takes for granted to be honest. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Sigh. No one except sociologists agree on a definition for working and middle classes because it's in a politician's interest to make us think that almost all of us are middle class, even if we're not. Politicians can make you think only the "rich" are going to be affected by a tax increase, but if you think "rich" is $60,000 a year, you're mistaken. From a sociology standpoint, upper class means you either have previously earned enough or have inherited enough that you can live on the interest of your money alone. No need to work. Almost everyone in this group has a trustfund and many go to private prep schools that provide better educations than colleges today. You might go to an elite college and then grad school and get a job and have a great income, but your family could live in upper middle class luxury or higher for the rest of your life and no one in your generation would ever need work again. The amount of money it takes to be there has changed slightly over the years, but at this point even the highest income earners who had to get student loans to get into that job might have a negative net worth. Our salary exceeds the $150,000 mark when I'm working too, but my family is NEVER going to be upper class, and neither is almost anyone else I know. There is NO QUESTION that $150,000 is NOT going to accomplish that, so yes, $150,000 incomes are not elite. Depending on debt load and cost of living, those salaries might be middle-middle class or upper-middle class, but it's never going to get you into Upper class unless you have a successful startup or you're a Warren Buffet style investor. If your family is making less than $60K (family of four), unless you're in a very inexpensive COL area and/or have inherited or paid off land/home, you aren't middle class. You can call yourself poor or working class, but having a savings account to cover emergencies and enough in the budget to cover clothing needs and enough to not worry about whether your kids are going to eat or whether you can buy them a $30 toy for Christmas or their birthday, you're not middle class. If you would qualify for food stamps or WIC (apart from something like foster parenting), you're not middle class. Almost everyone, in spite of background, can work and become part of the upper middle class eventually, assuming they are healthy and they want to, you just have to go to college (and possibly grad school) and choose one of the harder, more boring, but more lucrative majors. It will take living very poor and having a huge amount of debt for twenty or so years, but eventually you'll have assets and a good income. It is extremely rare and extremely lucky to work your way into the upper class. I have one friend that did- his family moved to the USA and was very poor, though they managed to find good working-class jobs and send him to college, he moved to San Francisco and took a job at what became a successful startup, cashed out his own options and started his own startup, and recently sold it to a huge corporation. His portion was hundreds of millions of dollars. He'll never have to work again, and if he had kids they wouldn't either. He's upper class. But that sort of success is extremely rare, and he's said that it would have been smarter to take a $100K programming job in SF because most startups fail, and for about half of the six years he was working on his startup it looked like his would fail too. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Dishwashers aren't considered a normal item though, are they ? I consider a dishwasher a 'luxury' item, in that it's a non-essential. Where I live it is definately considered normal. You would find it harder than average to sell a house or rent an apartment without one. Same with one car garages for houses. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 and head for NC like many, NC has really changed as a result of this migration. It's been going on for years. In fact, my dad moved our family here when I was quite young, but it seems like now, it's not just a trickle anymore but a flood. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 BTW, I read sonewhere that outside of the US, having a clothes dryer isn't ne essarily the norm. The mind boggles, lol. I know it is supposedly hard on clothes, and not environmental, but I love my dryer. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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