WDYT? Top ten percent of households (income)

[mommymilkies]

Those figures boggle my mind.

 

In 2008 we rented an old, tiny, wonderful farmhouse for $600/month. A year later we moved to Oregon where we were challenged by laws regarding children per sleeping space and finally found a very nice house for just under $2k per month. Blessedly the job transfer made a cost of living adjustment from Midwest to west coast.

 

But your numbers I can't wrap my head around.

 

Do people not move because it's simply too expensive to move? We made the choice to come back to the Midwest but it wasn't a hard decision as the company paid that bill. But I would think in this day and age someone could find jobs online so they could go to a lower cost of living?

 

If housing is that high, EVERYTHING is high, gas, food, it's nuts.

 

I've enjoyed this conversation actually

 

 

I would agree more kiddos is more expensive but I suspect. It nearly the difference folks think. I have some outfits Cate (2) will wear that came from Liz (13). Food is more and medical. And I think I just came full circle again with medical in my discussion again. I'm incredibly grateful for the medical care we enjoy in this country but wow those resulting bills.

 

I can see, now that everyone is talking, how things have changed over different salaries over years. The game used to be Which Noodle to Stretch Tonight's Meal? And now we mostly use veggies to grow meals. But, yes, I can see how things have changed if I really think on it, but I must consciously THINK about it and I have those past experiences to realize the ways I used to keep a tighter budget. And I think that's why people who have never had a small budget can't relate, it's not a lack of empathy or compassion. They've simply not done things like water down every kind of soap in the house to make it last, never unscrewed some of the light bulbs so kids can't leave them on ;), keep the water heater turned way down, or not go to a free activity because of gas cost.

 

Well, we bought our house at a good price in a buyer's market with a big first time homebuyer's bonus.  Unfortunately for us, the house was a lemon and SO much, actually everything, we have has been sunk into it and it still needs at least $20k of work.  We need to move-dh's work benefits suck to put it mildly, his job is not terribly secure, and other reasons.  The job search is not going well.  He works in higher education-teaches chemistry, actually, with an advanced degree.  But the jobs are few and far between that pay more than $40k a year before teaching expenses-private required retirement contribution, union fees, benefits, taxes, etc.  Where before that would have thrilled us, that money gets tighter and tighter each year where pay raises are barely existent and layoffs are frequent.  So while we need to move, we don't even have money to cover the loss on our home or the cash to pay for a cheap moving van or apartment down payment.  We could cover that if we stopped eating for a year, maybe. When we've looked for jobs in higher COL areas from NYC to San Diego, even, the pay increase is minimal and would just barely cover rent in a tiny place that might be illegal for a family of 7.  

 

As for the noodle game-Angel Hair.  That stretches the farthest. ;)

 

And the lightbulbs-I thought the energy cost was the same whether the lightbulb was screwed in or not?  I'll have to look that one up.  But Home Depot often has energy saving lightbulbs subsidized or the energy company bonus so they're $1 or less for a large package here. 

 

[mommymilkies]

Drying racks definitely are way more flexible.  We've often used the space designated for a dryer for way more useful things than a machine that uses tons of electricity and does something that will happen without any electrical assistance. :)

 

I definitely need a s/o for drying rack recommendations.  I've seen some good DIY ones.  We don't really have space.  Right now I dry things over the shower bar, doors, or on a rope I tied across some trees in our yard. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Meh.  I wash in cold, never iron, and only line dry.  Your excuses don't convince me.   ;)

 

I can't line dry.  Allergies.

 

I don't need an excuse really.  I'd do it even if I could line dry.  LOL

[SparklyUnicorn]

What I do sometimes do in summer is hang stuff in my closet wet.  I space it out well and keep the door open.  That works well. 

 

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I don't bother with racks either.  I have a couple of arguments for this.  The stuff comes out wrinkled.  Therefore I have to iron it.  That takes up energy anyway.  Does it take as much as a dryer?  Probably not, but I don't know what the difference would be.  And my second argument is I wash in cold.  Drying it helps kill germs.  The hot is not hot enough to kill germs and my washer does not heat the water.  Ironing probably kills germs.  But then see my first argument.

 

LOL

 

FWIW (just in case you're ever in a spot where you want to try it), I dry some things in the dryer for 7-10 minutes while I stain-treat, reload the washer, reorganize the mountains of dirty laundry, etc., then I hang or lay the clothes that need special treatment. I don't do it for everything, because frankly, my main take on laundry is that if you want to survive in this house, you have to be able to go in the dryer :lol: But as more and more companies have started using inferior fabrics or more polyester (shudder), I've had to start treating some things (mainly teen DD's clothes) more gently.

 

It's annoying but totally doable. I wash all that stuff in its own load, so it all happens at once, and I never iron anything because the initial heat from the dryer takes out the wrinkles, then I smooth as I hang/lay it out. We don't even have cardboard-y jeans, which is a big pet peeve of mine. 

 

I'd probably save a ton in electricity if I did this for all our clothes, but I haven't gotten to that point...yet!

[SparklyUnicorn]

FWIW (just in case you're ever in a spot where you want to try it), I dry some things in the dryer for 7-10 minutes while I stain-treat, reload the washer, reorganize the mountains of dirty laundry, etc., then I hang or lay the clothes that need special treatment. I don't do it for everything, because frankly, my main take on laundry is that if you want to survive in this house, you have to be able to go in the dryer :lol: But as more and more companies have started using inferior fabrics or more polyester (shudder), I've had to start treating some things (mainly teen DD's clothes) more gently.

 

It's annoying but totally doable. I wash all that stuff in its own load, so it all happens at once, and I never iron anything because the initial heat from the dryer takes out the wrinkles, then I smooth as I hang/lay it out. We don't even have cardboard-y jeans, which is a big pet peeve of mine. 

 

I'd probably save a ton in electricity if I did this for all our clothes, but I haven't gotten to that point...yet!

 

Well there is one good thing about polyester.  It tends not to need ironing. 

 

I have some creative "methods" myself.  LOL 

[LucyStoner]

Our apartment has a good washer and dryer hook up so we moved our set with us. I tend to only hang dry things that need it like sweaters (we wear a lot of sweaters!), sport/tech fabric clothes, ladies unmentionables, cotton stuff I don't want to shrink, my husband's work pants etc. I dry sheets, blankets, jeans, anything that is wrinkle free. I also take some of hang dried things and put them in the dryer for 2-5 minutes to fluff and de-wrinkle. We were lucky to find an apartment with a full size washer and dryer hookup and room for our large set of front loaders.

[SKL]

Oh, I have some clothes I need to hang to dry.  But my whole wash?  No thanks.

 

When we were in Belfast this past summer, we stayed one night in a hotel-apartment place.  I was excited to learn that it had one of those all-in-one washer-dryer units in the kitchen.  I used it to wash a load of underwear and such (we had packed light since we were going around Europe by train).  Well.  The underwear never got dry.  I tried for hours to figure out what I was doing wrong, but the clothes would just get wet again.  Bah.  We ended up drying them with a hair dryer so we could pack them the next day.

 

Later I thought, maybe they don't dry clothes in dryers here.  It would have been good to know that before I tried it.

[Amira]

I definitely need a s/o for drying rack recommendations.  I've seen some good DIY ones.  We don't really have space.  Right now I dry things over the shower bar, doors, or on a rope I tied across some trees in our yard. 

 

I just use the simplest folding metal racks I can find that aren't very expensive.  I don't like it when they have all sorts of wings and flaps that can open up.  I'd rather have three of the most basic racks.  I need all three when I have a large washing machine. 

[Wildcat]

I definitely need a s/o for drying rack recommendations.  I've seen some good DIY ones.  We don't really have space.  Right now I dry things over the shower bar, doors, or on a rope I tied across some trees in our yard. 

 

I have extra shower curtain bars that lay across the tops of the shower/tub thing to create extra drying space (just push them off to the side if someone tall gets in to shower and hits their head).

 

They are especially great for those dripping wet items.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

Almost everyone, in spite of background, can work and become part of the upper middle class eventually, assuming they are healthy and they want to, you just have to go to college (and possibly grad school) and choose one of the harder, more boring, but more lucrative majors.  It will take living very poor and having a huge amount of debt for twenty or so years, but eventually you'll have assets and a good income. 

 

 

Well I know you have qualified the statement, but this is part of why it's an issue for a lot of people.  Stuff like health is a bigger factor than I think a lot of people assume.  It can take one accident or illness to make someone's life very difficult. 

 

And definitely college is next to impossible for many people for financial reasons.  It's not good enough to just get financial aid to pay for school or that they will lend one th emoney to go.  You also have to find a way to actually GET to school and live while you are in school. 

[Momof3littles]

We have a drying rack in our mudroom, sometimes I set up a 2nd one in the family room.  We took an old ikea baby gate and attached it to the wall of the laundry room so it can swing down and serve as a drying rack, then it can be folded up out of the way when not in use.  It is sort of a rigged up version of one of these: https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0LEVrjgiONUpL4AJ90nnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0dmRibmhwBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMV8x?p=ballard+drying+rack&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dballard%2Bdrying%2Brack%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&w=400&h=400&imgurl=4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-RDKA219xtRc%2FTxBht-buMnI%2FAAAAAAAAAGQ%2FV3tw0YLs8OI%2Fs1600%2FBallard%2BDesigns%2BRack.jpg&size=25KB&name=Ballard%2BDesigns%2BRack.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbetweentherafters.blogspot.com%2F2012%2F01%2Fballard-designs-inspired-laundry-drying.html&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbetweentherafters.blogspot.com%2F2012%2F01%2Fballard-designs-inspired-laundry-drying.html&type=&no=1&tt=120&oid=1f82af9c2ab378ffde4d67628a12553f&tit=Ballard+Designs+Inspired+Laundry+Drying+Rack&sigr=12qrirkk2&sigi=1316cjs6h&sign=10od6i7n4&sigt=103vg5ole&sigb=12vprrrfo&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

 

I also have one of those "octopus" hanging things http://www.amazon.com/Ikea-801-896-63-Pressa-Hanging-Clothes/dp/B00QNR95PK hanging from a clothes valet thing like this http://www.containerstore.com/shop/closet/hangers/hangerAccessories?productId=10025748&green=2DE2A98A-B6BF-58BD-A0B1-676D132DB360 

I can use the hanger valet thing to also air dry some of DH's dress shirts.  I will pull the no iron ones out while just slightly damp and finish air drying them on the hangers.

 

DD's leggings, underclothes, etc. can be dried on the little octopus clip guy very easily.  I hang a bunch of things on my flip down drying rack, and then everything else goes on another drying rack if need be.  I hang out sheets sometimes, but we have a few with pollen allergies, and we have lots of trees.  So that has been cut back or is only done at certain times of the year now.  I hang a lot of our things indoors because I just find our clothing holds up so much better that way.  I haven't found most of it to get wrinkly.

 

Growing up, my mom hung almost everything.  We were a 7 person household.  She's in her late 60s and they still dry almost everything on a clothesline or drying rack.

[LucyStoner]

Incidental to this little rabbit trail, there are internet programs for low income families besides Comcast.

 

The programs are not well advertised except through schools so there could definitely be a program in an area where people haven't heard about it, more so homeschoolers. If you have broadband in your area, there is probably something offered. It was part of an arrangement with the federal government.

 

http://www.cheapinternet.com/low-income-internet

[Wildcat]

I can't line dry.  Allergies.

 

Same here. Plus, we already have some pollen floating around despite the fact that we had ice on the roads last night and are about to get the coldest temps of the winter so far. Once the pine trees get going, everything will be covered in a thick layer of yellow pollen. Outside, the pollen is even thicker! :lol: :smilielol5:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Incidental to this little rabbit trail, there are internet programs for low income families besides Comcast.

 

The programs are not well advertised except through schools so there could definitely be a program in an area where people haven't heard about it, more so homeschoolers. If you have broadband in your area, there is probably something offered. It was part of an arrangement with the federal government.

 

http://www.cheapinternet.com/low-income-internet

 

Yeah none of that here.  I know they list NY, but NY is large.  I'm surprised.  A lot of people would benefit from that here.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Same here. Plus, we already have some pollen floating around despite the fact that we had ice on the roads last night and are about to get the coldest temps of the winter so far. Once the pine trees get going, everything will be covered in a thick layer of yellow pollen. Outside, the pollen is even thicker! :lol: :smilielol5:

 

Uh yeah.  It's awful.  When I'm around it it feels like having a knife in my eye.  Not fun.

[Katy]

I agree with most of your post, but I don't know about this. I am not sure how it works in the US, but not everyone has access to university in most places. This requires some financial resources. It also requires being organized and determined at a young age, which is a problem for many people. Going to university later in life is much harder for most people, because it takes time, time they probably need to make ends meet. 

 

Yes, but you can:

• join the military and get a GI Bill (this is what my parents did, both had messed up home lives and couldn't focus on school as teens, and it was during Vietnam, but even in the military you can choose an area where you are unlikely to be on the front lines) <OR>
• work your rear end off in high school with the sole goal of getting great test scores so you can be a national merit scholar - many universities will waive tuition and room and board for you and will let you work for spending money.
• move to a place with cheaper public universities, work the best jobs you can get until you've been there a year and get in-state tuition, then take a crapload of student loans <OR>
• go to a community college or trade school and take a one year computer networking course to get a 60k job and use that salary to work your way through a computer science or MIS degree (or the same thing in other areas such as CNA-->nursing-->nurse management or nurse practicioner;  or electronic tech--> electrical engineering; or industrial maitenance vocational course--> industrial or manufacturing engineering-->MBA & factory management, etc.)  <OR>
• go to a library with internet access and use Khan and Udacity and Coursera and learn entry level programming, build a portfolio, and take a $60-80k programming job and get a computer science or MIS degree and work your way through comp sci or MIS with that income.  With minimal experience you can probably get a temp job for $40k.
• Get a $10/hour job at a large corporation that has education benefits so you can get a degree on their dime.
• Take loans for the first couple of years in a very challenging area (such as electrical engineering), and then get paid internships in the summer that will pay $25-45k for a summer of work and fund school for the rest of the year.  Paid internship will lead to a solid job offer when you graduate.
• One friend of mine majored in chemical engineering and was offered in excess of $100k as a starting salary as a petroleum engineer.  She has to live in Oklahoma for that job, and now she has to go back to night school and get a graduate degree to be promoted.  She's okay with that.

I'm not saying it will be easy, if it was, more people would do it.   Most of these areas take immense attention to detail, a lot of memorization, and math skills that you cannot fake your way through with common sense the way you can in say, social sciences. My parents divorced before they finished their degrees and my mom had three jobs, kids, a house, and went to college full time.  I still have no idea how she did it.  It is possible though.

 

ETA:  yes, health issues are important, and health is a huge qualifier.  A couple years ago I read an article that said it was expected in the future that medical students might be required to take long term disability insurance to get loans, because a fair number take out in excess of $200k of loans and then those who are disabled and cannot work cannot pay their loans.

[SKL]

Well I know you have qualified the statement, but this is part of why it's an issue for a lot of people.  Stuff like health is a bigger factor than I think a lot of people assume.  It can take one accident or illness to make someone's life very difficult. 

 

And definitely college is next to impossible for many people for financial reasons.  It's not good enough to just get financial aid to pay for school or that they will lend one th emoney to go.  You also have to find a way to actually GET to school and live while you are in school. 

 

Where I live, there are many options for getting an education within easy driving distance.  There's something for everyone.  My kids will be really lucky in that respect.

 

When I went to college, we lived in the boonies, but there was a regional campus of a state university about 12 miles away, and another maybe 40 miles away.  My family of 8 all shared one or two cars, but we all commuted to college (and most of us had jobs at the same time).  I did have to live on/near campus for grad school.

[Carrie12345]

LOL, I can't even get "good" internet where I live with good money. ;)  I have to use a data package on my phone.  Now, granted, THAT is a luxury.  But there is insanely limited streaming at our house even for Khan.

 

We have very limited internet options.  We stayed with our cable company for internet when we cut cable ('cuz I'm frugal like that  :lol: ) but then they told us they'd cut us off if we didn't lower our usage.  So we had to buy a business level package.  Now they've slowed that down and sent me an email offering a faster service... for $250/mo!!!

 

Frugal doesn't always win.  :cursing:

 

(Of course I realize and accept that I'm privileged to have slowish-but-usable internet!)

[Katy]

I am going to jump on this. I have dyscalculia and I want to use that to point out that not everyone can use math skills to achieve upward mobility. 

 

Your points are interesting and certainly something some people can learn from to develop a plan of action. Still, they are certainly NOT accessible to everyone. Your earlier post gave the impression that anyone can do this, if only they are dedicated enough. I do not believe that to be true. A range of financial, practical (available time, etc) and intellectual factors has to line up for any of these things to be possible, perhaps with the exception of joining the military. The latter is probably an excellent option for many people.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not very familiar with dyscalculia.  You don't need many math skills to get through most programming courses, computer networking, or MIS probably.  You would need it for most university based computer science courses, for nursing dosage calculations, etc.  I suspect that for the most part you could get special adaptations for that- ie: they would let you use special software or calculators or let you have more time on exams, give you extra tutoring, etc, at many state schools.  Other fields might be out of reach.

 

Geography can't be argued with though.  Many people would have to move closer to a university and/or to accomplish this, or at the very least have good internet access.

[MSNative]

I am going to jump on this. I have dyscalculia and I want to use that to point out that not everyone can use math skills to achieve upward mobility.

 

Your points are interesting and certainly something some people can learn from to develop a plan of action. Still, they are certainly NOT accessible to everyone. Your earlier post gave the impression that anyone can do this, if only they are dedicated enough. I do not believe that to be true. A range of financial, practical (available time, etc) and intellectual factors has to line up for any of these things to be possible, perhaps with the exception of joining the military. The latter is probably an excellent option for many people.

Jumping in just to make one OT point. College is not necessary for upward mobility. Vocations can be very lucrative and don't require going hugely in debt. Many of them also do not require super advanced math skills either. Sadly we seem to push most kids towards college rather than recognizing that many might be happier and better off financially pursuing a vocational career. Most of my family members who went into a vocational field - mainly auto - auto body repair, mechanic - are doing very well and are happy...oh and are without huge student loans. Not trying to make a universal statement condemning college or saying vocational training is going to change the world.

[Katy]

Jumping in just to make one OT point. College is not necessary for upward mobility. Vocations can be very lucrative and don't require going hugely in debt. Many of them also do not require super advanced math skills either. Sadly we seem to push most kids towards college rather than recognizing that many might be happier and better off financially pursuing a vocational career. Most of my family members who went into a vocational field - mainly auto - auto body repair, mechanic - are doing very well and are happy...oh and are without huge student loans. Not trying to make a universal statement condemning college or saying vocational training is going to change the world.

 

This is true.  Diesel mechanics can make very high salaries with just vocational school, and other vocational programs can make much more than the average person with a business degree, for example.  Also, vocational jobs can't be outsourced, they are needed locally.

[chiguirre]

Wouldn't a drying rack take up at least as much space as a dryer?

 

No, our apartment in Buenos Aires had a rack hung from the ceiling in the laundry room (more like a closet, but its own separate space). You could lower it to hang clothes and then raise it so you could walk in the room. It was a pretty ingenious system and didn't depend on the weather. You did have to plan your laundry out so that you could hang it for a whole day because Bs As is very humid.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Where I live, there are many options for getting an education within easy driving distance.  There's something for everyone.  My kids will be really lucky in that respect.

 

When I went to college, we lived in the boonies, but there was a regional campus of a state university about 12 miles away, and another maybe 40 miles away.  My family of 8 all shared one or two cars, but we all commuted to college (and most of us had jobs at the same time).  I did have to live on/near campus for grad school.

 

You said "driving distance".  How does one afford a car?   Owning a car is very expensive around here. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Jumping in just to make one OT point. College is not necessary for upward mobility. Vocations can be very lucrative and don't require going hugely in debt. Many of them also do not require super advanced math skills either. Sadly we seem to push most kids towards college rather than recognizing that many might be happier and better off financially pursuing a vocational career. Most of my family members who went into a vocational field - mainly auto - auto body repair, mechanic - are doing very well and are happy...oh and are without huge student loans. Not trying to make a universal statement condemning college or saying vocational training is going to change the world.

 

I do agree, but some of those programs are also more expensive than I think is warranted.  As an example, a culinary school program can cost $25K or more.  That's an amount I'm not sure is justified because most people don't earn a ton of money working in the culinary field.  Granted 25K is way more affordable than a 4 year degree, but it's still expensive. 

[BarbecueMom]

Jumping in just to make one OT point. College is not necessary for upward mobility. Vocations can be very lucrative and don't require going hugely in debt. Many of them also do not require super advanced math skills either. Sadly we seem to push most kids towards college rather than recognizing that many might be happier and better off financially pursuing a vocational career. Most of my family members who went into a vocational field - mainly auto - auto body repair, mechanic - are doing very well and are happy...oh and are without huge student loans. Not trying to make a universal statement condemning college or saying vocational training is going to change the world.

My brother works in automotive and has a heck of a lot more loans from vocational school than DH and I had after college, combined. And he's not done - he's working long enough for his employer to pay for him to finish school and all his certifications.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My brother works in automotive and has a heck of a lot more loans from vocational school than DH and I had after college, combined. And he's not done - he's working long enough for his employer to pay for him to finish school and all his certifications.

 

Yeah and I don't know how it works, but those programs don't seem to offer as many grants as universities.  I don't know if there is something about the time it takes to complete or the overall cost, or what.  I got several grants at the uni.  My sister went to a vocational school and got no grants.  She got all the loans she needed, but no grants.  Her one year program in the end wasn't much different price wise than my 4 year degree because of that. 

[BarbecueMom]

Yeah and I don't know how it works, but those programs don't seem to offer as many grants as universities. I don't know if there is something about the time it takes to complete or the overall cost, or what. I got several grants at the uni. My sister went to a vocational school and got no grants. She got all the loans she needed, but no grants. Her one year program in the end wasn't much different price wise than my 4 year degree because of that.

He had a Pell grant and subsidized loans, but the program just costs so much more. It's not cheap to own and insure and keep upgrading all the equipment to train auto techs and HVAC and whatnot. I mean, music programs have their expenses sort of offset by other university majors that need less "stuff", but tech school programs all need a lot of expensive stuff.

[Artichoke]

Incidental to this little rabbit trail, there are internet programs for low income families besides Comcast.

 

The programs are not well advertised except through schools so there could definitely be a program in an area where people haven't heard about it, more so homeschoolers. If you have broadband in your area, there is probably something offered. It was part of an arrangement with the federal government.

 

http://www.cheapinternet.com/low-income-internet

Thank you so much for sharing this! My sister's family is in a tight place right now, and it's been harder for their children to keep up with school assignments without internet access. She doesn't have any textbooks online, but it's made me wonder how she could have kept up if she did.

[SparklyUnicorn]

He had a Pell grant and subsidized loans, but the program just costs so much more. It's not cheap to own and insure and keep upgrading all the equipment to train auto techs and HVAC and whatnot. I mean, music programs have their expenses sort of offset by other university majors that need less "stuff", but tech school programs all need a lot of expensive stuff.

 

Yeah that's pretty crazy.  And then does the pay for those professions keep pace with the cost of the insurance and licenses? 

 

My husband's job requires no particular certifications.  And in the event the company wants him to have some sort of special training they pay for it.  It seems ridiculous that that would not be included for stuff like mechanics.

 

I guess the one plus is that with the tech programs you usually can start working sooner.  My sister was working for three years and making much more money than I was during that time.  Although it didn't take all that long for me to surpass her once i graduated.  It just seems to me that there should be some connection between the cost of a program and what one can earn.  Although that isn't different with university degrees either.  I think there should be a connection though. 

[Murphy101]

Yes, but you can:

• join the military and get a GI Bill (this is what my parents did, both had messed up home lives and couldn't focus on school as teens, and it was during Vietnam, but even in the military you can choose an area where you are unlikely to be on the front lines)

Nothing against the military, but it most certainly is not for everyone. And there are NO guarantees of anything.

 

 

work your rear end off in high school with the sole goal of getting great test scores so you can be a national merit scholar - many universities will waive tuition and room and board for you and will let you work for spending money.

Fabulous! This presumes their school is worth a crap to begin with to get the type of education where they can do so well and they have the family support to do it.

 

 

move to a place with cheaper public universities, work the best jobs you can get until you've been there a year and get in-state tuition, then take a crapload of student loans

Given that ages 18-25 is the highest unemployeed of active job seekers, this is not as simple as you make it sound.

 

go to a community college or trade school and take a one year computer networking course to get a 60k job and use that salary to work your way through a computer science or MIS degree (or the same thing in other areas such as CNA-->nursing-->nurse management or nurse practicioner; or electronic tech--> electrical engineering; or industrial maitenance vocational course--> industrial or manufacturing engineering-->MBA & factory management, etc.)

Uhhh. Just go. Well alright. Like it's free? It's not you know? And it takes a ton of support network to make happen even if they have some work to buffer the costs. Who are they living with? Transportation? License, union, and apprenticeship fees and time?

 

 

go to a library with internet access and use Khan and Udacity and Coursera and learn entry level programming, build a portfolio, and take a $60-80k programming job and get a computer science or MIS degree and work your way through comp sci or MIS with that income. With minimal experience you can probably get a temp job for $40k.

LOLOL. Seriously? One time on the computers is limited at most libraries. You can't just sit there for hours. And they have to get to the library and get on the computer (other people on it means you wait) Build a portfolio of what? Free online completion course certificates? Do you really think in this crazy job market that will get someone a job, much less 60k starting? That's nuts. And again, who is supporting them during that time? Rides, food shelter....helping them make that professional portfolio and networking them to people who will help them build it?

 

 

Get a $10/hour job at a large corporation that has education benefits so you can get a degree on their dime.

Do those even exist anymore? Not being snarky. Serious. I a, not aware of ANY $10 an hour job that offers that, much less for a new employee.

 

 

Take loans for the first couple of years in a very challenging area (such as electrical engineering), and then get paid internships in the summer that will pay $25-45k for a summer of work and fund school for the rest of the year. Paid internship will lead to a solid job offer when you graduate.

PAID internships? Uhhhh. Isn't that an oxymoron? Again, not snarky. Serious.

 

 

One friend of mine majored in chemical engineering and was offered in excess of $100k as a starting salary as a petroleum engineer. She has to live in Oklahoma for that job, and now she has to go back to night school and get a graduate degree to be promoted. She's okay with that.

That's great! Few degrees are going to go that way though. And she had to have a lot of support and funding to reach that point.

 

I'm not saying it will be easy, if it was, more people would do it.

It is possible though.

Yes. I agree. And I'm not saying it has to be easy. But what is being discounted is the truely HUGE amount of netting and support that gets those few through. That even with that, it is still really hard. It truely IS not possible without that huge netting and support.

 

It's just really not a matter of having enough gumption and ambition. And that's for people who are young and single. It IS harder than it was for my parents and myself when we were starting out in life. It shouldn't be. It's not fair and it's frustrating. But it is.

[Lady Florida.]

 

It's a ridiculous thing to suggest that Americans have to live like people in third world countries if they want to not be financially enslaved. For that matter, in third world countries that theory sure doesn't seem to be working in their favor at all.

 

If the solution to being poor was to just do without, it would have gone away with the dodo bird already.

 

Seriously. And it boggles the mind to think that someone would even suggest such a thing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yep.  None of that is easy.  I don't know how I got through school.  Ok yeah I know how.  I worked my tail off.  I begged, borrowed, and stole.  I'm still paying for it (and I'm 40 years old).  I also declared bankruptcy after I graduated (that's the "steal" part).  I don't love admitting that stuff, but just keeping it real. 

 

I did graduate with honors though.  And I am very proud of that.  And the first to have a degree in my family.  So go me! 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh and the GI Bill.  Ah yes.  I was going to go that route.  Was all signed up at 17.  Ready to go.  I did drills every week for a year prior.  I came across more people who didn't get what they were promised than did.  They didn't get to go to school.  They didn't get their bonuses.  I changed my mind.  That seemed like a lot to go through without knowing I'd get the education assistance promised. 

[Pawz4me]

PAID internships? Uhhhh. Isn't that an oxymoron? Again, not snarky. Serious.

 

DS has two paid internships lined up for this summer.  And he'll have just completed his freshman year of college, so he's not even into the big internship years yet.

[SparklyUnicorn]

DS has two paid internships lined up for this summer.  And he'll have just completed his freshman year of college, so he's not even into the big internship years yet.

 

I had an offer for something like that too.  A professor offered me a position helping with research.  Pay was decent too.  $10 an hour (and that was many years ago).  Problem was I had no transportation.

 

So McD's it was for $4.25 an hour.

 

I really don't think people fully get all of these hurdles that some people face. 

[SKL]

You said "driving distance".  How does one afford a car?   Owning a car is very expensive around here. 

 

Or using public transportation, or carpooling, whatever is available.

 

In undergrad I shared a car with my parents and siblings.  (There was no public transport there.)  We had to coordinate a lot, but we figured it out.  In grad school my mom dropped me off one August day, and I occasionally hopped a ride home with someone who commuted weekly (her kid was in Jr High and staying with grandparents during the week).  A friend and I bought a very old car for $450 in my 2nd or 3rd year of grad school.  Ah, memories...

 

It is not very expensive to own a car around here.  But it may not be the most economical solution.  Parking at big universities often isn't free.

[Pawz4me]

I had an offer for something like that too.  A professor offered me a position helping with research.  Pay was decent too.  $10 an hour (and that was many years ago).  Problem was I had no transportation.

 

So McD's it was for $4.25 an hour.

 

I really don't think people fully get all of these hurdles that some people face. 

 

But that wasn't the point Martha was making.  It was that paid internships don't exist any more.  And . ..  yeah.  They do.  That's all I'm pointing out.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Or using public transportation, or carpooling, whatever is available.

 

In undergrad I shared a car with my parents and siblings.  (There was no public transport there.)  We had to coordinate a lot, but we figured it out.  In grad school my mom dropped me off, and I occasionally hopped a ride home with someone who commuted weekly (her kid was in Jr High and staying with grandparents during the week).  A friend and I bought a very old car for $450 in my 2nd or 3rd year of grad school.  Ah, memories...

 

It is not very expensive to own a car around here.  But it may not be the most economical solution.  Parking at big universities often isn't free.

 

There was no public transport available where I lived.  Best I could manage was begging my mother.  Who bitched about it every single time.  Which is fine.  I don't blame her.  But I was pretty desperate. 

I didn't even have enough money to afford to get my license at that point.  I would never have been able to afford insurance.  My parents could not afford that either.  So even if my parents could let me use their car it's not the only expense.

[SparklyUnicorn]

But that wasn't the point Martha was making.  It was that paid internships don't exist any more.  And . ..  yeah.  They do.  That's all I'm pointing out.

 

Ah yeah.

They do.  I was even paid for my "externship" after the culinary school.  $10 an hour in fact.  Pretty good for culinary. 

[unsinkable]

I had an offer for something like that too. A professor offered me a position helping with research. Pay was decent too. $10 an hour (and that was many years ago). Problem was I had no transportation.

 

So McD's it was for $4.25 an hour.

 

I really don't think people fully get all of these hurdles that some people face.

I get it. I faced a ton of hurdles. My parents died when I was a teenager.

 

But if someone asked me, how did you get through school on your own...and then brushed off every thing I shared, I'd stop sharing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I get it. I faced a ton of hurdles. My parents died when I was a teenager.

 

But if someone asked me, how did you get through school on your own...and then brushed off every thing I shared, I'd stop sharing.

 

I guess I share because I don't think people think of these things.  I'm a real person who really did that and really had those problems.  People think some don't succeed because they are lazy, don't take opportunities, etc.   That's just bull. 

 

You live in the same state I do.  You know a $450 car would never pass inspection.  It's expensive to own a car here.  You can't just drive around anything you can manage to get started.

[SarahB82]

I rarely see anyone mention the fact that a lot of the people who are stuck in these lower paying jobs are often stuck there because they don't have the intellectual ability to do much else. Being smart enough to work your tail off and succeed isn't a given.

[Katy]

I didn't make up a single one of those options.  I know at least one person who did every single thing listed there, and for most of them, many people.  The exception being Udacity, for which I know only one person, who couldn't get a job outside of call center customer service.  You don't have to have a degree to be a programmer, you just have to program.  And yes, he didn't have internet access at home, and worked out an arrangement with a librarian to be able to spend two hours a day on a programming course on a library computer.  When the librarian saw he was serious and would show up every day, she instead loaned him her netbook so he could spend 3-4 hours per day on it, using the library's wifi.  You learn to program.  You go to a temp agency looking for a programmer.  You take a free proficiency exam, and you get a temporary job.  In three months, if you work hard, you'll probably get hired on in a permanent basis.

 

Paid internships are VERY common in the fields I listed up thread.  

 

And yes, CC costs money, and you're going to need food and housing, but unless you're homeless someone is going to be paying for your food and housing anyway.  And if you are that destitute, chances are your financial aid will be enough to cover community college tuition and books, and you will be able to get loans for housing and a meal plan.  I've had friends who went back as adults with children and got enough financial aid the college was actually paying THEM to go to school.  They still had to get loans for daycare costs, and they were on food stamps, but she graduated fine.

 

ETA:  Forgot about the companies paying for school thing. Starbucks is one of MANY employers who will pay for a degree program.  So does UPS.  Both of them are all over the country, hire a lot of people for about $10/hour, and pay for at least two classes at a time.  Many other employers will reimburse for a course if it is in the field they hire in.  I don't think I've ever worked for a fortune-1000 company that didn't.  Yes, it might take 3-6 months to be eligible, but it is an option.  You can also just take a short course to be an advanced CNA and work for a hospital and they will pay for nursing school.

[SKL]

I guess I share because I don't think people think of these things.  I'm a real person who really did that and really had those problems.  People think some don't succeed because they are lazy, don't take opportunities, etc.   That's just bull. 

 

You live in the same state I do.  You know a $450 car would never pass inspection.  It's expensive to own a car here.  You can't just drive around anything you can manage to get started.

 

I don't think most of us are ignorant of what a struggle it is to get started in life.  It wasn't exactly easy for most of us.  But there are all kinds of different possibilities.  Chances are that there is some opportunity to fit almost everyone..

 

Seeing people say "impossible" or "yeah right" to a whole list of suggestions that have worked for many?  To me that suggests some people are too ready to make excuses.  If someone chooses not to pursue opportunities, or is afraid of failure (or afraid of success), then fine, let's call it what it is.  Talk about it like a positive choice, not a cop-out.  "I decided I'd rather start earning money and enjoying my free time now rather than go to all the trouble to get a higher education."  It's a valid choice.

 

But I don't like the idea that young people will listen to all the naysayers and be too scared to even try.  It's hard, it always has been, but it's not impossible.

[CAMom]

PAID internships? Uhhhh. Isn't that an oxymoron? Again, not snarky. Serious.

 

 

 

 

Been reading the thread with interest. We've been in the upper 15% or so (not quite upper 10%) while living in a very HCOL area and were very comfortable but nowhere near the level of those all around us. We now live in a lower COL area and have taken a huge hit with the economy. We only make about half of what we used to and we are paying for college for two kids. Not fun!

 

Anyway, I just wanted to say that there are definitely paid internships available. My ds is a senior at a state university and applied for an internship last fall. It was a two year internship for 20 hrs. per week at $20 per hour. Unfortunately, he didn't get it.

 

My dd applied last week for a paid internship this summer. We're still waiting to hear if she gets it.

 

Talking to all of my friends with college kids, our experience is not unique.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't think most of us are ignorant of what a struggle it is to get started in life.  It wasn't exactly easy for most of us.  But there are all kinds of different possibilities.  Chances are that there is some opportunity to fit almost everyone..

 

Seeing people say "impossible" or "yeah right" to a whole list of suggestions that have worked for many?  To me that suggests some people are too ready to make excuses.  If someone chooses not to pursue opportunities, or is afraid of failure (or afraid of success), then fine, let's call it what it is.  Talk about it like a positive choice, not a cop-out.  "I decided I'd rather start earning money and enjoying my free time now rather than go to all the trouble to get a higher education."  It's a valid choice.

 

But I don't like the idea that young people will listen to all the naysayers and be too scared to even try.  It's hard, it always has been, but it's not impossible.

 

No I really think you are ignorant to the struggles I went through. You made suggestions that were not available to me.  You made it seem like no big deal.  Oh just hitch a ride or carpool.  With who?!  I didn't know anyone at the school.  All of my friends went far away to school. 

 

I'm sure it's hard work for everyone, but there are hills so steep to climb for some people you cannot even believe how impossible it is to climb over them.  When I said I begged, borrowed, and stole...I was not really kidding.  No exaggeration.  I did whatever it took short of committing crimes.  My mother gave me rides and if it weren't for her I would not have done it at that point in time.  I do thank her for that.  But I put up with her abuse for years in exchange. 

[LucyStoner]

Paid internships do exist. That said there are a lot more unpaid and low pay internships than ones that pay "25-45k for the summer". The only people I know who got anywhere close to $20k for a summer internship were at elite schools. Not western state u. A 20 hour a week internship paying $20 an hour comes to just over $20k for a full 12 month year. Most internships I see are more like $0-12/hr though. I didn't do internships in college (which would have advanced my career choices) because i needed way more money than they were offering (as I was the main provider for myself and my high school aged brother).

 

There are lots of ways to hack through school but the options are decidedly more limited now than they were even 10 years ago.

[Murphy101]

But that wasn't the point Martha was making. It was that paid internships don't exist any more. And . .. yeah. They do. That's all I'm pointing out.

I'm glad truely. Is it common where you are? It is not here. And paid or not, it often goes to those in the know already. It's often not something just anyine usually gets.

[Katy]

Unpaid internships have effectively ended with some new regulation change last year.  Internships that pay in excess of $20k for a summer are either at elite schools OR in very difficult fields.  They are common in engineering.

 

Internships that pay less than $20k are common in fields like accounting or actuarial science.