WDYT? Top ten percent of households (income)

[Χά�ων]

Actually, it's cheaper to run a dishwasher than to do dishes by hand. It uses less water than washing and rinsing everything by hand. Our water company reminds us of that fact every year, when they send out their annual "tips for using less water" blurb.

I think it depends on who loads the dishwasher. My father washes the dishes before loading it and has a very set way one loads the dishwasher. 

[Carrie12345]

I think she just meant that a small family can live on less money than a larger family can. Kids are expensive, even if you're frugal, so if my family and yours had the exact same annual income, my family would have a lot more money left over after we paid for the basics, simply by virtue of a family of three being less expensive to support than a family of 12.

 

Heck, yeah.

 

I have no complaints about my household income, relative to others' or on its own.  I DO get very uncomfortable with peoples' assumptions though (mostly IRL), and it sometimes makes me want to whip out my strict budget and ask the ass...ummers what in the H they think I should be doing differently.

 

Someone said that every kid should go to Disney.  I'm going to assume some hyperbole there.  I think every kid should have excellent health care, quality educational resources, extensive outdoor skills and experiences, a very reliable vehicle (particularly when these things require extensive driving in rural areas) and highly nutritious food.  My "many" kids get all those privileges, so we're too broke for Disney.  :tongue_smilie:

[Scarlett]

In some cases the local utility company will offer rebates to offset the extra cost in order to encourage energy efficiency. That makes it available to a few more people, although those people have to be able to pay the price upfront and wait 2-3 months for the rebate and many cannot do that.

I bought a $611 dryer and got a $500 rebate from the gas company. It only took 3 weeks.....but if you don't have $611 it doesn't matter if it takes 3 weeks or 3 months..... How are you going to do it.

[idnib]

.

[DawnM]

Deleting, just not worth it and I would ask that those quoting me delete as well.

 

[Rosie_0801]

I think one of the biggest tipping points is when you realise there is no reason to bother trying to get ahead because it is never going to happen.

 

That allows some with lower incomes to live a more comfortable life than those on slightly higher incomes for whom it is still worth trying.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

Heck, yeah.

 

I have no complaints about my household income, relative to others' or on its own.  I DO get very uncomfortable with peoples' assumptions though (mostly IRL), and it sometimes makes me want to whip out my strict budget and ask the ass...ummers what in the H they think I should be doing differently.

 

Someone said that every kid should go to Disney.  I'm going to assume some hyperbole there.  I think every kid should have excellent health care, quality educational resources, extensive outdoor skills and experiences, a very reliable vehicle (particularly when these things require extensive driving in rural areas) and highly nutritious food.  My "many" kids get all those privileges, so we're too broke for Disney.  :tongue_smilie:

 

Not hyperbole, just wishful thinking ;) I do wish that every child could get to go to Disney... in the off season :)  but realisticly, I know that's not... realistic.

 

In general, I'm a Libertarian. But I think it's sad that "the richest country in the world" has any amount of the population living in poverty- so I would be OK with the government listening to the average American and making laws that enable each and every American to have their basic needs met- no worries about food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

 

I do live a very priviledged life; threads like these, and the situations of some family members often remind me just how much so, and I dunno.... it makes me sad that not everyone has what I have. And I don't mean possessions- I mean having basic human needs met and not having to worry about food, shelter, healthcare, etc. Having vacation time. Going to Disney (or wherever your happy place is).

 

Everyone deserves that. Even those of us whose perspective gets a little skewed sometimes want that for everyone.

 

 

[Catwoman]

I bought a $611 dryer and got a $500 rebate from the gas company. It only took 3 weeks.....but if you don't have $611 it doesn't matter if it takes 3 weeks or 3 months..... How are you going to do it.

I guess if money is that tight, the family shouldn't be buying a dishwasher.

[mommymilkies]

Dishwashers aren't considered a normal item though, are they ? I consider a dishwasher a 'luxury' item, in that it's a non-essential.

In the midwest and the east coast where I've lived, yes they are normal items.  Even for friends I know in government housing/low income apartments, they are standard.  Actually, even in our worst roach motel apartments there were always dishwashers.  They didn't always work, though. :p

[Χά�ων]

Well, if you wanted to go, there is a way.

 

We typically go for 12 days.  Our condos are $250 per week including taxes and fees, so $500 for the condo.

 

Disney has homeschool days, so our tickets were around $1,200 for 8 day hoppers with waterparks and more.

 

Sometimes travel is included for free as we tack our trip on to DH's conference in November.  This year we couldn't, so gas was around $300.  Parking $140.

 

Food we stick to our regular grocery budget and staying in a condo gives us a kitchen.  So, $0 additional for many of our meals.

We also spend about 2 months' budget on eating out.  So, we save up by not eating out as much the month or two before.  So, $0 additional as it is clearly marked in our regular budget before the trip.

 

Under $2,200 for 5 of us for up to 2 full weeks.  We can sometimes do it for $2,000 if DH's work pays for the travel (they actually give him mileage, so it works out to cover gas, parking, and sometimes a meal out.)

DH has paid vacation, so no vacation loss.  And if we go during his conference, the first week he is working anyway.

 

 

Since we are talking about middle class, I assume most middle class workers have some sort of paid vacation time.

 

Do you really think that anyone who really wants to can come up with $2,000? 

[*lifeoftheparty*]

When we lived in Laurel, MD. We were in apartments built in the 50's or 60's.

There were no dishwashers. There still aren't, in that complex. But yeah, the newer ones have them.

I remember people in the ghetto, if they had a dishwasher... they used them for storage- cause they sure as heck didn't work.

[creekland]

So, this is the amusing part of it, how in the world does the Jones family afford what they do?!?!

 

The reason it seems low is that DH makes a good living, not the 10% lol, but better than average.

 

 

How do we support our habit?  We cut back on everything else.

 

With the exception of one year that we sold investment property, we've never made more than 100K.  Our income varies based upon hubby's business, but it's usually more than "average" and less than 100K.

 

Right now, roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of what we make (after taxes) goes toward college expenses for our two boys.  That's our biggest expense and while we are supporting them we are not contributing to our retirement at all.  That's a choice we've made.

 

Otherwise, our newest car is a 2003.  Our older truck is a 1997.

 

We rarely buy new clothes and generally shop for new after checking out what's in a local thrift store.  Our clothes don't last us a season.  They last us years of seasons.

 

New shoes only happen when old ones are worn out - usually after they've been worn out for a bit.

 

I shop sales for food and we have our own garden that produces a bit.

 

No quick stops into the convenience store (or similar) for drinks or snacks.  I make all my lunches to take to school.  Hubby makes his when heading out on job sites with rare exceptions for when he's eating with clients.

 

The last appliance we replaced was our clothes dryer.  Our "new" one came from an estate sale and cost us $50.  It's rare that we need to replace any.

 

Hubby is awesome at fixing pretty much anything - so very few repair visits from anyone.

 

We have one small TV.  We have one computer (each).  Mine is inexpensive.  Hubby's is his "work horse" so is built accordingly.

 

Our furniture is OLD - some of it still hand me downs from when we were married 26+ years ago.  Other pieces came from yard sales.  We did buy one new armchair this past year - our first new piece of furniture in oodles of years.  We haven't bought any used "new" ones in many years either.  No need.

 

No floor in our house has been updated since we bought it 18 years ago.  We should replace a couple, but they haven't quite gotten worn enough to be high enough on our "need-to" list yet.  We don't care that there are holes in them.  ;)

 

Christmas/birthdays?  Generally one present per person (and no extended shopping list) and a limit of around $25 per person.  Hubby and I don't get each other anything by mutual consent.

 

Health care?  Our health share program covers pretty much all of our needs > $300 for just a little over $400/month for the whole family.  Including non-covered visits, the dentist, and optician, I budget roughly another $150/month for needs.  Sometimes we use more (per year), other times we don't use it all.

 

Our favorite activities are free or close to it - hiking, playing board games, hanging around outdoors on our farm, etc.  We do go to movies about 3 times per year I'd guess.  Otherwise, we do Netflix.  We do go out to eat sometimes - more now that we're empty nesting than we did with kids due to the finances of it all.

 

And we budget for our travels.  Once in a rare while we'll do something as expensive as Disney (did it last summer actually), but often we tent camp (fees tend to be < $20/night).

 

Right now we're on one of our long trips - spending a month (Feb) on Grand Bahama.  Most see a month away from home to an exotic place like the Bahamas and wonder how we do it - conjuring up wealthy thoughts.  By staying in a condo (no dishwasher!) on the beach - that expense is just under $2500/month including all taxes and fees.  My mom is with us, so we split that cost - $1250 for our share, not weekly, but for the whole month.  (Add that to our mortgage and we're still well under HCOL typical mortgage costs!)  Flights were approx $400 round trip each, so we're up to $2000 for the month in our expenses.  All we have to add otherwise is food - and we'd be buying food at home too, so it's not much different.  We are fortunate that my mom is splitting that cost as well - and pays for us often when we choose to eat out, but we still don't eat out daily or close to it.

 

Lost income?  There is mine, but I don't earn much subbing at school, so it's no big deal.  I "lost" just as much last year when I couldn't work due to daily radiation treatments.  Hubby's?  If he doesn't work he doesn't earn anything, so that would be a big deal... except he works while we're here.  His projects are done on the computer and he brought those along with him.  The internet, e-mail, and Skype all work just fine.  He'll have paychecks waiting for us at home the same as if he were there.  His hours here differ so we can enjoy the beach (free) and the parks (limited cost), but he's still putting in the hours.  He's working now as I type.  How is that a vacation?  Well... the weather and view are both incredibly better here than at home for Feb!  We also spent the morning at the island's National Park.  Other mornings we spend out snorkeling or beach walking.  We own our own snorkel gear (purchased years ago), so no cost there at all.

 

Then there are some savings - the heat is turned down back home and less electric is being used.  Our water and sewer are free (well/septic) so there's no cost there.  We are paying a house/critter sitter $350, so that should be added, but could be offset by the savings.  No gas costs while we are gone.  We had our car insurance cut back too since we aren't driving.

 

So, if one were to head off to Disney or some other resort or high cost island and pay out the wazoo - yeah - we couldn't afford that either, esp if we had car payments and new (or updated) carpets/flooring or general new "stuff" we regularly bought.  But a vacation like this (relatively) cheap - coupled with camping for a couple of others throughout the year and cutting back quite a bit on what others would consider necessary?  It's all possible while still remaining below the top 10% income-wise.  We've been doing it for years.  We can't always afford month long trips, (did three with our boys - and two 3 week long trips) but we enjoy them when we can.  We've already made a mutual commitment to scrape by this upcoming year to do something like this again next Feb.  It's worth it to us.

 

It's actually worth it to many around here (oodles of Canadians - a handful of Americans - occasional "others" - Germany, Poland) as we tend to be some of the short termers only staying one month - but I've never asked the others we met what their incomes were so perhaps they are in that top 10%.  Or maybe they just love travel and feel it is worth skimping everywhere else to save up for it.

 

An addict will do many things to fund their addiction.   :coolgleamA:

 

We can fund our addiction because we earn more than average and are willing to cut back plus we live in a low COL area.  Hubby earns more than average because he invested in a college education years ago - we paid off a 5 digit college debt in our first 5 years of marriage - and we've been reaping the benefits since.  He's also super good at his job.

 

If we earned an average (or below) income or had chosen to live in a high COL area - no - we could not budget for these trips.  Ditto that if we had more than three kids or had high medical bills that weren't covered at 100% or had parents who need our financial help.

 

Do I feel fortunate?  Absolutely.  We can choose to skimp and save while looking for bargains to feed our addiction.

[mommymilkies]

I don't have a microwave. Haven't in years.

I know many without dishwashers.

I know many who have a broken appliance and they can't replace it. They just have to get by without it.

 

Does anyone watch The Middle? We laughed about the broken sink episodes. We once had to go 2 and a half weeks without a kitchen sink bc we couldn't afford to fix it. It was funny in a not so funny way. And there was the time we went 3 months without replacing our flooded carpet bc the amount the insurance gave was not enough to buy new carpet, so we just ripped it out and threw it away and I let the kids use chalk on the cement floors if they wanted too. (They were really bummed when we got carpet.) Eventually my awesome dh managed to snag a great deal and we got carpet, but we were not going to go into debt and make our family sacrifice in other ways just for socially acceptable flooring. Most people we knew just sort of laughed about it bc they had or were in the same boat. But there were others in higher incomes we didn't really talk to about it bc to them this was scary and awful and meant we needed charity. Nope. Just normal life for lower middle class people. Sorry it's not pretty.

Our newish washer exploded (glass front-everywhere) Christmas Eve two years ago.  We washed clothes completely by hand-in the bathtub-for three months until we finally got a yes for the warranty to cover it.  We couldn't pay to fix it, otherwise. 

 

 

And our porch roof right now?  Caved in.  The wood floor to the porch: caved in.  I can't afford to fix it.  It's $1800 for a quick fix that will need fully repaired in spring, and then it will cost much more.  We have to wait until it's over 50 degrees, anyway.  Partly this is due to crappy vanity repairs that the last owners lied about.  But we can not fix it unless we paid no bills and didn't eat for 6 weeks.  This house has zapped our savings and already low income (already low-one teacher salary).  So DIY cheapo repairs are par when you're part of the lower classes. If you're really lucky, you'll know someone in the business to help you. 

[mommymilkies]

Well, if you wanted to go, there is a way.

 

We typically go for 12 days.  Our condos are $250 per week including taxes and fees, so $500 for the condo.

 

Disney has homeschool days, so our tickets were around $1,200 for 8 day hoppers with waterparks and more.

 

Sometimes travel is included for free as we tack our trip on to DH's conference in November.  This year we couldn't, so gas was around $300.  Parking $140.

 

Food we stick to our regular grocery budget and staying in a condo gives us a kitchen.  So, $0 additional for many of our meals.

We also spend about 2 months' budget on eating out.  So, we save up by not eating out as much the month or two before.  So, $0 additional as it is clearly marked in our regular budget before the trip.

 

Under $2,200 for 5 of us for up to 2 full weeks.  We can sometimes do it for $2,000 if DH's work pays for the travel (they actually give him mileage, so it works out to cover gas, parking, and sometimes a meal out.)

DH has paid vacation, so no vacation loss.  And if we go during his conference, the first week he is working anyway.

 

 

Since we are talking about middle class, I assume most middle class workers have some sort of paid vacation time.

This is so out of the range of reality for most people in this country.  $2000 is about 3 weeks pay for my *professor* husband. 

[Btervet]

I really don't get how people are defining middle class. Wouldn't it be people in the middle spectrum of income? If you are in the top 10% of income, would that by definition not be middle class?

 

Maybe people here mean something different. To me, middle class means in the middle of the income spectrum. Right now, people in the middle of the income spectrum are struggling with everyday things. So to me, that means the middle class is struggling.

 

If someone is making 2-3x the people in the middle, I think it's absurd to call them middle class. If we do, how does the term have any meaning?

 

I find elite a useless term because of it's inherently negative connotations. There is nothing bad about being in the top 10% of income earners, but I understand why they may not what to be called elite. Doesn't mean I'll ever consider that middle class.

[Lucy]

Many of my friends take their families to Disney on a regular basis.  And Hawaii.  My kids ask me when can they go to Hawaii?  I say, "Maybe on your honeymoon!"  It's a little annoying when others tell me that "all kids need to go to Disneyland." or "you could do it if you just plan well enough."  Any idea how much 6 plane tickets alone would cost?  All the discount lodging and eating tricks won't help nearly enough to counter that!  If we had one, maybe two kids... sure, we could save and do it.  But I decided to give my kids more siblings.  Not going to Disneyland is not some kind of sacrifice - it's just a choice - a natural consequence for having the family life we have chosen.  No loss, just different.  I just wish people would stop gasping when I say we've never been and don't plan to. We are fine with it.

 

Everyone makes financial decisions based on what they value.  Some go without cell phones, some eat beans and rice, some don't do big vacations, some share a car, some wear second hand clothes - all the while all these different families are looking at each other and both saying, "They shouldn't have to do that if they just planned better."

[*lifeoftheparty*]

Many of my friends take their families to Disney on a regular basis.  And Hawaii.  My kids ask me when can they go to Hawaii?  I say, "Maybe on your honeymoon!"  It's a little annoying when others tell me that "all kids need to go to Disneyland." or "you could do it if you just plan well enough."  Any idea how much 6 plane tickets alone would cost?  All the discount lodging and eating tricks won't help nearly enough to counter that!  If we had one, maybe two kids... sure, we could save and do it.  But I decided to give my kids more siblings.  Not going to Disneyland is not some kind of sacrifice - it's just a choice - a natural consequence for having the family life we have chosen.  No loss, just different.  I just wish people would stop gasping when I say we've never been and don't plan to. We are fine with it.

 

Everyone makes financial decisions based on what they value.  Some go without cell phones, some eat beans and rice, some don't do big vacations, some share a car, some wear second hand clothes - all the while all these different families are looking at each other and both saying, "They shouldn't have to do that if they just planned better."

 

So, I agree with this.

 

I have talked with people who think I'm absolutely crazy for not buying a bigger house, better car, or even having a smart phone in lieu of going to Disney World/on multiple vacations.

 

My own in-laws think I'm crazy because I wouldn't spend $500 on a glider rocker when I was pregnant, considering what it costs us to go to Disney. But they also boycott Disney, lol.

 

I can spend $6 to $8K on a vacation, and not have an ounce of regret. I consider it money well spent. But the thought of spending that on replacing the HVAC unit, which will have to be done soon- sends me into a panic. And I will *hate* forking over that money for it. *Hate* it.

 

I also remember a time (now that this thread has me thinking about it) when I couldn't even imagine coming up with $6000 for anything, no matter how well we budgeted or planned for it... so I get it. I will definitely try to not say things like this in the future.

 

 

[SKL]

Re going to Disney, I've taken my kids there twice, on the front/back end of a longer vacation.  Each time we were only there for a couple days at a time.  It is a pretty expensive vacation to take just by itself, because of the cost to travel there.  Also, I work out of my computer bag, so I don't really take off much work when I go on vacation.

 

My brother's stepkids' dad used to live in Florida, so they drove down there a couple times.  I don't know how they managed the vacation time, but I guess they did.  I myself never went to Disney until I was an adult.

 

I think it's great if a family can swing a trip to Disney.  I really appreciate all the advice for people who need a budget travel plan.  But I have to agree it's not really accessible to everyone, especially those who live far and don't get vacation time.  I would view it as a long-term soft goal.  Maybe someday there will be enough vacation time and the stars will align....

[Χά�ων]

So, I agree with this.

 

I have talked with people who think I'm absolutely crazy for not buying a bigger house, better car, or even having a smart phone in lieu of going to Disney World/on multiple vacations.

 

My own in-laws think I'm crazy because I wouldn't spend $500 on a glider rocker when I was pregnant, considering what it costs us to go to Disney. But they also boycott Disney, lol.

 

I can spend $6 to $8K on a vacation, and not have an ounce of regret. I consider it money well spent. But the thought of spending that on replacing the HVAC unit, which will have to be done soon- sends me into a panic. And I will *hate* forking over that money for it. *Hate* it.

 

I also remember a time (now that this thread has me thinking about it) when I couldn't even imagine coming up with $6000 for anything, no matter how well we budgeted or planned for it... so I get it. I will definitely try to not say things like this in the future.

 

 

Hold up, $500 for a glider rocker? I got mine for $20 because the store lost the footstool. It would have been $80 otherwise. I had no idea they were so expensive now!

[Scarlett]

Many of my friends take their families to Disney on a regular basis. And Hawaii. My kids ask me when can they go to Hawaii? I say, "Maybe on your honeymoon!" It's a little annoying when others tell me that "all kids need to go to Disneyland." or "you could do it if you just plan well enough." Any idea how much 6 plane tickets alone would cost? All the discount lodging and eating tricks won't help nearly enough to counter that! If we had one, maybe two kids... sure, we could save and do it. But I decided to give my kids more siblings. Not going to Disneyland is not some kind of sacrifice - it's just a choice - a natural consequence for having the family life we have chosen. No loss, just different. I just wish people would stop gasping when I say we've never been and don't plan to. We are fine with it.

 

Everyone makes financial decisions based on what they value. Some go without cell phones, some eat beans and rice, some don't do big vacations, some share a car, some wear second hand clothes - all the while all these different families are looking at each other and both saying, "They shouldn't have to do that if they just planned better."

The thing is.....people should have enough disposable income to save for whatever is Important to them. WDW is not the top of my wants list, but I would love $5000 a year to take the kids somewhere fun.....then maybe the next year that $5000 could go to buy a teen a car, or remodel my kitchen.....as it is though we can't get ahead enough to get the credit cards we have paid off....much less something extravagant like vacation.

 

I am just about to pay off $3000 worth of dh's medical bills...and bam....we need a new toilet and probably a new water heater soon....and so up goes the Lowes bill.....and me juggling to get it paid off in time to avoid interest.

 

We really struggle...and that is with no mortgage and no vehicle payments. I don't know how some people do it because I know we are better off than many.

 

I have good friends who have 7 people in a 500 SF dump of a trailer....they have no bathroom sink....three kids in a 11 x 6 foot bedroom. So I try to remember how good I do have it.

 

I also remember a documentary I saw years ago....these refugees were in tents in the desert...and had a container that they could fill with water everyday.....the spigot was turned on and allowed to run for 50 seconds. That had to last for drinking, cooking, bathing cleaning.. Sometimes when I shower I count to 50 and see how far into my shower I am. Makes me grateful for clean running water.

[SKL]

So, I agree with this.

 

I have talked with people who think I'm absolutely crazy for not buying a bigger house, better car, or even having a smart phone in lieu of going to Disney World/on multiple vacations.

 

My own in-laws think I'm crazy because I wouldn't spend $500 on a glider rocker when I was pregnant, considering what it costs us to go to Disney. But they also boycott Disney, lol.

 

I can spend $6 to $8K on a vacation, and not have an ounce of regret. I consider it money well spent. But the thought of spending that on replacing the HVAC unit, which will have to be done soon- sends me into a panic. And I will *hate* forking over that money for it. *Hate* it.

 

I also remember a time (now that this thread has me thinking about it) when I couldn't even imagine coming up with $6000 for anything, no matter how well we budgeted or planned for it... so I get it. I will definitely try to not say things like this in the future.

 

 

 

I'm like this too.  I was raised poor and frugal.  Now I am financially comfortable (but not so comfortable that I don't have to be careful with my kids' education fund).  My day-to-day expenses are pretty low, and if I had a financial crisis, they could be much lower.  However, I spend money on certain things, especially "now or never" type experiences.  International vacations are the biggie for us.

 

However, I realize that of course most Americans can't afford to take the vacations we take.

[catz]

My kids have been to Disney a few times. Each of those trips have been in conjunction with trips visiting close relatives. We have a relative who is a cast member, so we have gotten some reasonably good deals. I don't feel Disney is a must do trip for a child. Not even close IMO. It is expensive. What chaps my hide the most is how complex it is. You can save up to go there for years and you will not have as much fun as someone wh goes there all the time and knows the ins and outs. It is a vacation for the privileged. You can spend $100 to get through the gate and spend all day in lines if you don't know what you are doing.

[creekland]

I have talked with people who think I'm absolutely crazy for not buying a bigger house, better car, or even having a smart phone in lieu of going to Disney World/on multiple vacations.

 

My own in-laws think I'm crazy because I wouldn't spend $500 on a glider rocker when I was pregnant, considering what it costs us to go to Disney. But they also boycott Disney, lol.

 

I can spend $6 to $8K on a vacation, and not have an ounce of regret. I consider it money well spent. But the thought of spending that on replacing the HVAC unit, which will have to be done soon- sends me into a panic. And I will *hate* forking over that money for it. *Hate* it.

 

These all may be signs that you have a travel addiction.  Welcome to the travel junkie club...

 

And if you venture past Disney, you might find you like other places too.  My kids liked Disney when they were younger and still had fun last summer on our reminisce trip, but they are the first to prefer going elsewhere if that's an option now that they've been exposed to quite a bit more.  The last time I gave them a choice of Disney or beach they took less than half a second to each say "beach."  I regret that they can't be here on Grand Bahama with us - they'd love it.  However, we all love nature.  If that's not your preference, I could very well be incorrect.

 

But yes, others think we're crazy to spend so much on travel while going without what they consider to be basics.

 

To each our own.  We travel junkies are in our own world.  In my fantasies hubby and I sell everything except what fits in a backpack and we set out to see the world.  I'd do it if I could guarantee the rapture (or end of the world in any form) would happen before we ran out of money.   :D

[*lifeoftheparty*]

Hold up, $500 for a glider rocker? I got mine for $20 because the store lost the footstool. It would have been $80 otherwise. I had no idea they were so expensive now!

 

Hamdmade by the Amish.

 

We were in Lancaster, PA for the day :)

 

ETA: The gliding foot stool was not included in that price....

[*lifeoftheparty*]

These all may be signs that you have a travel addiction.  Welcome to the travel junkie club...

 

And if you venture past Disney, you might find you like other places too.  My kids liked Disney when they were younger and still had fun last summer on our reminisce trip, but they are the first to prefer going elsewhere if that's an option now that they've been exposed to quite a bit more.  The last time I gave them a choice of Disney or beach they took less than half a second to each say "beach."  I regret that they can't be here on Grand Bahama with us - they'd love it.  However, we all love nature.  If that's not your preference, I could very well be incorrect.

 

But yes, others think we're crazy to spend so much on travel while going without what they consider to be basics.

 

To each our own.  We travel junkies are in our own world.  In my fantasies hubby and I sell everything except what fits in a backpack and we set out to see the world.  I'd do it if I could guarantee the rapture (or end of the world in any form) would happen before we ran out of money.   :D

 

Yes, I am definitely a travel junkie :)

 

We love other places too. We go to Disney every 3 years or so.

[Carrie12345]

Not hyperbole, just wishful thinking ;) I do wish that every child could get to go to Disney... in the off season :)  but realisticly, I know that's not... realistic.

 

In general, I'm a Libertarian. But I think it's sad that "the richest country in the world" has any amount of the population living in poverty- so I would be OK with the government listening to the average American and making laws that enable each and every American to have their basic needs met- no worries about food, shelter, healthcare, etc.

 

I do live a very priviledged life; threads like these, and the situations of some family members often remind me just how much so, and I dunno.... it makes me sad that not everyone has what I have. And I don't mean possessions- I mean having basic human needs met and not having to worry about food, shelter, healthcare, etc. Having vacation time. Going to Disney (or wherever your happy place is).

 

Everyone deserves that. Even those of us whose perspective gets a little skewed sometimes want that for everyone.

 

 

 

And I kind of joke b/c I think Disney is a nightmare... though I've tossed around ways to get my kids there.

Reality is, housing is about 20% of our income.  Health insurance is about 20% of our income.  Food is reaching nearly 20% of our income.  And then, you know, the rest of living.

I'm 100% grateful for those things.  We're truly privileged.

But Disney on the cheap is more expensive than my insurance deductible that was met this month.  We'll survive.  Pun hopeful!

 

ETA: For the record, I mean take home income.

[Arcadia]

My mom and I are travel junkies. My dad and my hubby are sporting tag-alongs. I actually opt for a job with lots of travelling after graduation so I could travel on company's dime.

If there is a useful conference at a place I want to go to, hubby would apply to go and we tag along and get a family vacation if the conference is approved. We had no interest in Disneyland but there was a conference at Anaheim so it became a been there done that item.

[BlsdMama]

This is so trivial, lol- BUT- Disney is only $100 per person/per day if you go for one day. The longer you go, the cheaper it is.

 

We are going in May, and 8 day tickets are around $350 a person (don't remember exactly).

 

And, we are staying offsite in a condo- only $99 a night! And we're splitting it with my mom and aunt who are coming with us, so we're only paying $376 for 12 nights.

 

(www.floridasunvacationhomes.com)

 

Again, I know this is *so* trivial compared to what this thread is talking about. I'm sorry!!

 

But you can take your kids to Disney on the cheap :) Every kid should get to go to DIsney :)

 

There are lots of us Disney junkies on here that could help you with that ;)

Lol. Saying something like "only $350 per person," and "only $99/night," with "every kid should get to go to Disney," seriously proves there are different mindsets going on in this thread.

 

I think every child should have medical care, though I admit I swallowed damn hard last week when William was hospitalized for three days with RSV knowing it's all on us. Can't wait for that bill.

 

No, trust me, $350 per person for walking into an amusement park is way out of reach for some families, which is fine, it's surely not a necessity in life, but the added guilt trip was nice icing, though I'm certain you didn't realize what you were saying.

 

I don't mind that these kiddos won't be going to Disney, giving them life was important to us and we made that decision long, long ago And obviously we're not sorry. ;). But my husband makes a darn good living IMO. However, honestly medical care in our life (with NO ongoing conditions just slaughters us.)

 

And maybe that is why everyone making $40,000 less than us has more toys. Maybe it really is because of food stamps, paid utilities, housing assistance, etc?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I really don't get how people are defining middle class. Wouldn't it be people in the middle spectrum of income? If you are in the top 10% of income, would that by definition not be middle class?

 

Maybe people here mean something different. To me, middle class means in the middle of the income spectrum. Right now, people in the middle of the income spectrum are struggling with everyday things. So to me, that means the middle class is struggling.

 

If someone is making 2-3x the people in the middle, I think it's absurd to call them middle class. If we do, how does the term have any meaning?

 

I find elite a useless term because of it's inherently negative connotations. There is nothing bad about being in the top 10% of income earners, but I understand why they may not what to be called elite. Doesn't mean I'll ever consider that middle class.

 

The middle class has generally been considered to cover a wide range, which is why terms like upper middle class and lower middle class can be useful.  Those making $150K are in reality much closer in lifestyle to the "middle class" than they are the "upper class." 

 

The class definitions can be quite ambiguous, but I have generally seen the upper class defined as the top 1-2%, the upper middle class being the next 10-15% (where our $150k earners will fall), middle class/lower middle class being a larger group, working class being about the same % as middle/lower, and then the poor/underclass falling below.

 

In this discussion I think we have seen the upper middle class being put into the same grouping as the working class and calling the group as a whole the middle class, which is incorrect.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Lol. Saying something like "only $350 per person," and "only $99/night," with "every kid should get to go to Disney," seriously proves there are different mindsets going on in this thread.

 

I think every child should have medical care, though I admit I swallowed damn hard last week when William was hospitalized for three days with RSV knowing it's all on us. Can't wait for that bill.

 

No, trust me, $350 per person for walking into an amusement park is way out of reach for some families, which is fine, it's surely not a necessity in life, but the added guilt trip was nice icing, though I'm certain you didn't realize what you were saying.

 

I don't mind that these kiddos won't be going to Disney, giving them life was important to us and we made that decision long, long ago And obviously we're not sorry. ;). But my husband makes a darn good living IMO. However, honestly medical care in our life (with NO ongoing conditions just slaughters us.)

 

And maybe that is why everyone making $40,000 less than us has more toys. Maybe it really is because of food stamps, paid utilities, housing assistance, etc?

 

We hit the jackpot with two boys who had zero interest in Disney.

[Catwoman]

We hit the jackpot with two boys who had zero interest in Disney.

Same here.

 

My ds never wanted to go, and not only did we suggest it to him several times, but one of our employees is a Disney fanatic and kept trying to convince him that it would be the vacation of a lifetime.

 

Not for my kid. Zero interest.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There's a lot of research already (and disagreement) on what constitutes to U.S. middle class.

 

Here's a chart from the link:

 

This chart is around what I was thinking - so middle class would cover all the way from $50,000 to $600,000 (US).  That's a huge spread!  I'm assuming the $50,000 to $135,000 would cover low cost -of-living areas and the $100,000 to $600,000 would cover high cost-of-living areas?  I mean you would have to account for that somehow, right?  

 

According to this chart we've been in upper lower class to sometimes barely lower middle class but we've always considered ourselves middle class because of our general education and values.  Now don't get up in arms - I'm not saying that people with less money have lower values but priorities do naturally shift according to how much money you have and education opens doors and eases the way even if you don't always get the higher paying jobs.  And we would be more firmly in the middle class bracket if I didn't homeschool and stay home and worked full-time (though I have medical issues that would interfere even if I didn't homeschool).  

[Melissa in Australia]

I find threads like this a little depressing.

 

In my mind we are middle class, but the reality is that we have up to this year been having a total income from all sources of just under $30K per year. 

 

The reason in my mind I think we are middle class is not based on how much money is coming in, but rather what we have. We are completely debt free. I am living at a way, way higher standard than I was as a child.

 

The reason we are debt free is not because we had a large income way back, 'cause we didn't but rather we are extremely frugal and live way below our income.

 

 

 

[Brit29]

I dunno, where we live (bedroom suburb of Kansas City), $150,000/year (which, after taxes, is more like $120k?  at most)  just puts you nearish the top 1/4 of residents, and you live more or less like everyone else in terms of neighborhood (slighly posher, mostly the same) and activity (working for a living) and schooling (mostly public schools, because the public schools here are technically good (but in reality they're terrible, that is another thread)).  

 

People who make $1 million a year don't live here.  They live over in Mission Hills, the super rich neighborhood, and they send their kids to private school, and take all the vacations they want, and some of them work but some don't, and they have 3 cars and sometimes a jet.

 

No one making $150k a year has a jet.

 

*snipped by me* 

 

Are you representing OP by chance? JoCo born and raised here. ;) 

[Upward Journey]

This chart is around what I was thinking - so middle class would cover all the way from $50,000 to $600,000 (US).  That's a huge spread!  I'm assuming the $50,000 to $135,000 would cover low cost -of-living areas and the $100,000 to $600,000 would cover high cost-of-living areas?  I mean you would have to account for that somehow, right?  

 

According to this chart we've been in upper lower class to sometimes barely lower middle class but we've always considered ourselves middle class because of our general education and values.  Now don't get up in arms - I'm not saying that people with less money have lower values but priorities do naturally shift according to how much money you have and education opens doors and eases the way even if you don't always get the higher paying jobs.  And we would be more firmly in the middle class bracket if I didn't homeschool and stay home and worked full-time (though I have medical issues that would interfere even if I didn't homeschool).  

 

 

And I think this skews the conversation somewhat on this board.  Almost everyone here has made the conscience decision to forgo that second income in order to homeschool. Most of us are likely quite educated.  So even though a lot us may be living lower class or working class lifestyles, we don't "think" like lower or working class folks.

[mommymilkies]

 

And maybe that is why everyone making $40,000 less than us has more toys. Maybe it really is because of food stamps, paid utilities, housing assistance, etc?

 

I agreed with you until there.  I'm assuming I know the income range you're indicating, and that's too high for much of that assistance. ;)  We definitely don't have any of that.  And our toys are 99% hand me downs from family or presents from my shopping obsessed more well to do in-laws.

 

Plus, most people I know in that range buy from resale shops like Goodwill and have lots of hand me downs.  Plus maybe those toys are a small bit of joy to give kids when you know you'll never get to take them to Disney or the Eiffel Tower? Most toys are cheap nowadays.  

 

[idnib]

. 

 

[umsami]

I find threads like this a little depressing.

 

In my mind we are middle class, but the reality is that we have up to this year been having a total income from all sources of just under $30K per year. 

 

The reason in my mind I think we are middle class is not based on how much money is coming in, but rather what we have. We are completely debt free. I am living at a way, way higher standard than I was as a child.

 

The reason we are debt free is not because we had a large income way back, 'cause we didn't but rather we are extremely frugal and live way below our income.

 

See this is huge!  We haven't even approached debt.  If the top 10% of US households make 150k, I wonder how much in debt they are, on average.   If you're living debt free, well I don't know about Australia, but in the US that would be extremely rare.  I think it would be like doubling one's income, at least.  I think I read that the average American has something like $15k in debt, if they have credit cards.  On an average salary of around 50k, that's a big debt load.  That doesn't even take into account mortgages and such.

 

I also think the attitude towards debt and savings plays a big part.  Anybody else see this about Germany and how they view debt?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31369185

[mommymilkies]

This chart is around what I was thinking - so middle class would cover all the way from $50,000 to $600,000 (US).  That's a huge spread!  I'm assuming the $50,000 to $135,000 would cover low cost -of-living areas and the $100,000 to $600,000 would cover high cost-of-living areas?  I mean you would have to account for that somehow, right?  

 

According to this chart we've been in upper lower class to sometimes barely lower middle class but we've always considered ourselves middle class because of our general education and values.  Now don't get up in arms - I'm not saying that people with less money have lower values but priorities do naturally shift according to how much money you have and education opens doors and eases the way even if you don't always get the higher paying jobs.  And we would be more firmly in the middle class bracket if I didn't homeschool and stay home and worked full-time (though I have medical issues that would interfere even if I didn't homeschool).  

Is this gross income or net?  Because my dh teaches and we actually bring home about 3/4 of what he makes without counting insurance or anything.  That's all union fees, required retirement contributions we have no power over, taxes, etc.  So that puts our take home in working class but gross income in lower middle.  And that's if you don't take family size into consideration.

[Btervet]

Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter...

 

I understand that. It was hard for me to understand as I grew up very very upper middle class in a low COL area, yet my parents told us we were poor. It left me with a very skewed view of things. After years (decades?) of learning to adjust, I now understand this. The idea of "save a little each month" is just absurd when you barely eat the two days before payday and rely on school breakfast/lunch for your kids nutrition.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

Plus, most people I know in that range buy from resale shops like Goodwill and have lots of hand me downs.  Plus maybe those toys are a small bit of joy to give kids when you know you'll never get to take them to Disney or the Eiffel Tower? Most toys are cheap nowadays.  

 

 

I think that is a big part of it.

[Murphy101]

I don't think you can make this assumption.

I agree.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

So...curious...does anyone here not have disposable income at all, after all actual needs ( shelter, health, food, utilities, transport, education ) are met ?

 

It seems there's an assumption that the only difference between being working class and middle class is what the working class choses to spend its extra money on.

 

That those with 'middle class attititudes' will spend it on education and travel and other worthy things, and those with 'working class attitudes' spend it on toys, cigarettes and beer.

 

Reassure me that people understand some working class families, particularly those in high COL areas who are also asset poor, don't have 'extra money'. There is nothing there to save or fritter...

 

Even if some do "fritter" away small amounts of money on extras, I don't begrudge someone finding ways to purchase at least some small pleasures in life.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is this gross income or net?  Because my dh teaches and we actually bring home about 3/4 of what he makes without counting insurance or anything.  That's all union fees, required retirement contributions we have no power over, taxes, etc.  So that puts our take home in working class but gross income in lower middle.  And that's if you don't take family size into consideration.

I have no idea!  Good question.  

[creekland]

And maybe that is why everyone making $40,000 less than us has more toys. Maybe it really is because of food stamps, paid utilities, housing assistance, etc?

 

I don't know what financial bracket you are in to know what 40K less than yours is, but I do know that those who don't earn enough from working to afford these things ought to qualify for subsidies.

 

We have never needed them (something else I'm thankful for).  There are kids at my school who probably would qualify for free/reduced lunches, but their parents will not fill out the paperwork.  These kids often end up skipping lunch.  I see that as a parental sin.  Some of us (teachers) offer to buy lunch for them, but it's rare that the students will take us up on it most likely due to the embarrassment factor.  I've been able to get a couple to get things now and then, but it takes a bit of assuring them that they will be able to pay it forward sometime in their future when they are able and see a need.

[Murphy101]

I've been on these boards when there was actually a negative left over after not being able to cover actual needs. I get it.

I get it too.

[chiguirre]

No, trust me, $350 per person for walking into an amusement park is way out of reach for some families, which is fine, it's surely not a necessity in life, but the added guilt trip was nice icing, though I'm certain you didn't realize what you were saying.

 

I don't mind that these kiddos won't be going to Disney, giving them life was important to us and we made that decision long, long ago And obviously we're not sorry. ;). But my husband makes a darn good living IMO. However, honestly medical care in our life (with NO ongoing conditions just slaughters us.)

 

And maybe that is why everyone making $40,000 less than us has more toys. Maybe it really is because of food stamps, paid utilities, housing assistance, etc?

Even if your family made $150,000 a year, your per capita income would be equivalent to a family of four that made $50,000. You might count as "top 10%" but that won't be your everyday reality because of your family size.

 

Is that "everyone" who is making $40,000 less than you a member of a 12 person family? If they are, they're probably in debt or receiving income supports. If they only have 2 or 3 or 4 kids, their per capita income is actually 2 to 3 times as much as yours. That buys a lot of toys and trips to Disney.

 

I'm not saying this to be mean or snarky, I'm just pointing out how family size and per capita income are related. We each make our choices and we have to live with them.

[idnib]

. 

 

[Murphy101]

I don't know what financial bracket you are in to know what 40K less than yours is, but I do know that those who don't earn enough from working to afford these things ought to qualify for subsidies.

 

We have never needed them (something else I'm thankful for). There are kids at my school who probably would qualify for free/reduced lunches, but their parents will not fill out the paperwork. These kids often end up skipping lunch. I see that as a parental sin. Some of us (teachers) offer to buy lunch for them, but it's rare that the students will take us up on it most likely due to the embarrassment factor. I've been able to get a couple to get things now and then, but it takes a bit of assuring them that they will be able to pay it forward sometime in their future when they are able and see a need.

I almost never ate breakfast or lunch at school for the same reason. I wouldn't have taken anything offered either. Being poor is complicated. Sometimes the only thing they own is pride, and they hang on to it to their detriment sometimes. :(

 

ETA: and to be fair. You get used to it. I STILL have to force myself to eat before 4pm. I just don't feel hunger pains until around 4-5pm. I really enjoyed longer recesses from skipping lunches too. Really. But if they are hungry, I'm sorry they don't eat what's offerred. :(

[idnib]

.