Joker Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Are you saying this because you consider the older two to have also been abused? Because if not, then I think you are just saying she has been treated similarly to the older (non-disgruntled) siblings. In my day, nobody had a SSN until they wanted a temporary driving permit. You didn't need one for anything until you wanted to drive or have a regular paying job. We did have a bc and we used it to apply for the SSN. I don't think SSN is a big deal at all. As for the bc, apparently this family is among the minority who don't believe in getting a bc at birth. I wouldn't make the same choice, but I don't see it as abuse. I think it's a problem for the girl now, yes, but at the same time I am not sure it's all on the parents. The girl may be one of the many (including myself) who acted like an a$$ toward her mom and is now unwilling to go back and apologize and show proper respect. The difference is that I didn't have outside people encouraging me to sever the relationship and be a bigger a$$ than before. Ultimately giving the girl the affidavit is the right thing to do, but I can understand the request to talk first. That's all I'm saying. I don't know whether this girl gave her mom a real chance or not before going to public media. The mother, in her own words, said this did happen. Alecia did meet with them. They mom stated they agreed to give her what she wanted but Alecia still refused to move back home. Then the mom stated how they were going through boxes at home but found nothing to help her. It's ridiculous! The only way she was apparently going to get what she needs was to take it public since the father has now agreed to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 SKL, on 13 Feb 2015 - 08:49 AM, said: Are you saying this because you consider the older two to have also been abused? Because if not, then I think you are just saying she has been treated similarly to the older (non-disgruntled) siblings. In my day, nobody had a SSN until they wanted a temporary driving permit. You didn't need one for anything until you wanted to drive or have a regular paying job. We did have a bc and we used it to apply for the SSN. I don't think SSN is a big deal at all. As for the bc, apparently this family is among the minority who don't believe in getting a bc at birth. I wouldn't make the same choice, but I don't see it as abuse. I think it's a problem for the girl now, yes, but at the same time I am not sure it's all on the parents. The girl may be one of the many (including myself) who acted like an a$$ toward her mom and is now unwilling to go back and apologize and show proper respect. The difference is that I didn't have outside people encouraging me to sever the relationship and be a bigger a$$ than before. Ultimately giving the girl the affidavit is the right thing to do, but I can understand the request to talk first. That's all I'm saying. I don't know whether this girl gave her mom a real chance or not before going to public media. I read lisa's blog posts (including the one she took down, but was archived elsewhere.) I read the siblings published letters supporting their parents. from all of that I see screaming red flags of narcisstic personality disorder/similar (- it's ALL about *lisa* -) or at the very least, major manipulation on the part of the parents. and yes, that IS psychological abuse, no matter how "loving" the language it is couched in. the parents are blackmailing/manipulating alecia to do what they want her to do (that isn't just "talking".). they are not trying to help her, but to save their own ugly egos. the refusal to sign an affidavit so she can get a bc IS abuse, they are attempting to CONTROL her and force her to bend to *their* will. loving parents do not do that. my generation didn't need SSN until we went to work (I didn't need one for a driver's license) - that isn't the case with my children's generation. you needed ssns to claim them on your taxes - but the penningtons don't claim their kids on the taxes they don't pay. (IRS records here.) the other children have claimed they don't have bc, or ssns because . . .cue gov't paranoia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I do think, especially mothers, whose identity becomes so wrapped up in their children are more at risk of becoming manipulating and controlling to their children. the mother's are afraid to allow their children to cut apron strings because then they have no identity left. in some cases that means they will not allow their children to be an autonomous adult. I say this as a mom with three kids launched, #4 is in college, but still at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Maybe going forward they need to make it a crime to fail to register a birth in the USA within X mos / years. Then this sort of thing could not happen. With a bc it is very easy to get a SSN and all the rest. I would have thought there was a law along these lines, but maybe not. If there was a law requiring the parents to register the birth, and they did not do it, they could be threatened with criminal charges if they didn't get it done ASAP. Although that would not be pleasant, I'd prefer it to going on the internet and posting a video about the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I don't know, I don't think it's unreasonable as long as they are living there rent free. I personally don't think it would be as big a deal in my house even with younger kids but we're fortunate to have enough room to spread out. I did ask my 18yo to send her boyfriend home at nine on weeknights because their laughing and movies and whatnot would bother the rest of her family no matter where they planted themselves. I think the point is to work things out with your adults and come to an agreement everyone can live with instead of just issuing orders. I won't get into the reasonableness of requiring everyone to work first shift but I will say that in a lot of areas it is highly unrealistic to expect that young workers will get first shift. You can hope and want but that doesn't mean you are going to get it. Lots of new hires almost always have to take swing and night shifts. In some professions it is not limited to new hires. My husband works in a hospital and after 7 years still gets some swing shifts. He also pulls doubles occasionally when they are short staffed. We don't expect to live in any set shift land, much less first shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If I'd been raised as this girl was raised, and I managed to get out, I'd not be 100% confident of my safety if I went back home for the mandatory discussion. I'd wonder if I'd be beaten or locked up or (at the least) screamed at. At the very least I'd expect a horrible, horrible, horrible dramatic afternoon in which my parents fall apart, the younger kids are terrorized by the drama, and the neighbors get quite a show, with no guarantee of getting the document which might not exist. Look at that blog post by her mother, falling over with Sturm und Drang because her adult daughter moved in with her grandparents. If the woman bleeds irrational emotion all over her blog to strangers that way, what do you think she pours out on her own kids? Expecting Alecia to re-enter Crazytown in search of the docs is unreasonable. Preach on, Sista! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Maybe going forward they need to make it a crime to fail to register a birth in the USA within X mos / years. Then this sort of thing could not happen. With a bc it is very easy to get a SSN and all the rest. I would have thought there was a law along these lines, but maybe not. If there was a law requiring the parents to register the birth, and they did not do it, they could be threatened with criminal charges if they didn't get it done ASAP. Although that would not be pleasant, I'd prefer it to going on the internet and posting a video about the situation. From what I understand, in that state there is a law (even when this girl was born) that said that the midwife had to register the birth. She didn't. So. . . this sort of thing still happens when people disregard the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 From what I understand, in that state there is a law (even when this girl was born) that said that the midwife had to register the birth. She didn't. So. . . this sort of thing still happens when people disregard the law. If the law required the parents to do it, or to ensure it is done, they couldn't get off by blaming it on the midwife. The parents would usually be easier for the child to find than the midwife, I would think. So it seems accountability would be greater if the parents had to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You'd kick my dh with his incredibly lucrative night job out of the house, I guess. He's been supporting all of us on it for many years now. But he needs to go to bed by 8:30, not get up. I don't understand how this isn't controlling. Or how it isn't incredibly limiting for young people trying to get work, which often leans toward service and retail and doesn't have a "first shift" option for people passing through not wanting it to be a career. Or why having one grown up on a different schedule necessarily disrupts the sleep of the kids. That has not been our experience at all - and we live in a creaky old house with thin walls. I don't have adult kids yet. But this is one of those things where I'm like, what's really important. For me, if my kids are home as adults, I can't imagine I'd prevent them from taking paying jobs they wanted to take. This is what I was thinking. For young adults in college or just out of high school trying to decide what to do next, retail is often the primary option. And it doesn't lend itself well to limiting hours. Our house is extremely small with the front door right next to our bedroom, my dds share a room when eldest is home from school and things are different when she's home. But she's also part of the family so we do what we can to accommodate her needs as well. Unless she comes home right at bedtime before anyone else has actually fallen asleep, no body wakes up because she's courteous enough to be quiet as possible. Although I will admit, I do occasionally wait up (in my bed) if she's out late. :blushing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If the law required the parents to do it, or to ensure it is done, they couldn't get off by blaming it on the midwife. The parents would usually be easier for the child to find than the midwife, I would think. So it seems accountability would be greater if the parents had to do it. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.192.htm Parents are required to do it if there is no licensed midwife. Since it is still undetermined if this midwife was even legal - ie. licensed - then it truly would have been up to the parents. The thing is, without licensed people present, there is no way the government is going to know if a baby is born so there is some honor system here unless something like this hits the presses many years after the fact. Could the government go after them or the midwife with whatever sanction there is for not complying with this law? Probably. But I don't know if they will go out of their way to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 My son waited tables overnight before he got the nice office job he has now. I also have a large spread in the ages of my kids. It never occurred to me to limit his options. We just all made adjustments so that he could become independent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Maybe going forward they need to make it a crime to fail to register a birth in the USA within X mos / years. Then this sort of thing could not happen. With a bc it is very easy to get a SSN and all the rest. In Hong Kong, when I lived there, it was illegal to give birth at home, because right to HK residence was very prized (as opposed to illegal arrival by boat/swimming from China) and proving it was crucial. A friend of mine gave birth at home by accident - there was a typhoon, no road out, and no boats or helicopters functioning. The police were informed by the local GP (who delivered her of the baby) and they turned up to register the birth. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I read through the link on the registration of births and while I see rules there, I do not see anything at all about consequences if the rules are not followed. Other than the consequence to the child of course, who has to deal with the PITA paperwork in order to make right what should have been done at birth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Thanks for taking the time to read my entire post. Yes, you did bold my words that younger child/children and adult child's sleeping times didn't match which was a reason that we vetoed second and third shift jobs. ( sorry, having trouble with multi-quoting ) Adult child was a total bear and expected everyone to be completely quiet so that he could sleep during the day. Nope, that wasn't a healthy situation for our family so the rule was made that only first shift work and abiding by certain sleep hours was made. Ds decided to abide by those rules so he continued to live with us. If he had chosen otherwise, then we would have given him time to transition to another place to live. You may call that "kicking him out", but I don't. It's allowing our son to make his own choices about his living arrangements. Please understand first of all, that I'm in no way trying to compare your situation to that of Alecia Pennington. Second, the bolded part about your ds' behavior was not mentioned before, and is definitely not how an adult living with others (family or not) should act. That changes things. I was only speaking of my experience how adults who live together act. I married at 37 and only lived alone the last 4 years before I met and married dh. So from the time I went away to college at 19 until I was around 32-33, I had roommates. Sometimes it was in an apartment, sometimes a house. Sometimes my name was on the lease, sometimes others, sometimes all of us. I knew some roommates as friends before we became roommates; others were strangers or just co-workers before we decided to share living space. Of course, none of those situations included young children, but I did experience that too, when then 20yo dss moved back in shortly after my bio son was born. In none of the above situations did work hours or sleep times become an issue. If a roommate or if dss had pulled what your ds pulled, I'm sure things would have been different. I also know I've been incredibly lucky. I've heard roommate horror stories, and though I've had eleven different roommates during my time as a single woman, I have no horror stories to tell. If we were friends before moving in, we were still friends after the arrangement ended (often because a roommate got married or took a job in a new city). If we were strangers or co-workers before, we had no animosity towards one another after our roommate situation ended. I used to think that was normal until I heard others talk of terrible roommates. Now I know I was simply very fortunate. I guess my point was that that's not how adult roommate situations usually work. You can of course choose not to room with people whose schedule is different from yours, but I've never heard of adults telling other adults what time to get up, and what hours they can work. Again, your ds it seems brought this on himself. If I had known that, I probably wouldn't have even replied to your post. That's very different IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am a person who strongly believes in preparing kids for adulthood in all ways (in case my posts shed doubt on the subject). I look forward to seeing my kids confidently take a job of their choosing and set up their own housekeeping. My kids are only 8, but I already told them that the only thing I hope for is that after they leave me, they invite me over to their house for dinner sometimes. :) I don't agree with any of the parents' past choices that I know about. However, I don't think we have enough facts to say there was "abuse," and I really hate the whole "get it out on the internet" thing. It stinks. (Not the same thing, but the "public shaming" thread is somewhat applicable here.) Sure, it coerces people to do things, but that's no better than what the parents were allegedly doing to this girl. I guess that's what she's learned from them, perhaps. Sad. As for people acting shocked at a mother's emotional reactions to emotional events, I just feel things are not that black and white in real life. I remember my parents' reactions to some surprises from their kids. Some things take time to get used to. Good thing my parents don't blog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Laura Corin, on 13 Feb 2015 - 09:48 AM, said: In Hong Kong, when I lived there, it was illegal to give birth at home, because right to HK residence was very prized (as opposed to illegal arrival by boat/swimming from China) and proving it was crucial. A friend of mine gave birth at home by accident - there was a typhoon, no road out, and no boats or helicopters functioning. The police were informed by the local GP (who delivered her of the baby) and they turned up to register the birth. L and sometimes babies are born at home just because things can happen fast . . . while it can be argued my sil should have gone to the hospital instead of doing all her "nesting" errands and going home afterwards, she didn't and delivered at home - unintentionally. her dil delivered at home because her labor was that. fast. and by the time she realized she was in labor, it was too late to leave the house - the paramedics didn't even make it for the delivery. (in either case, though they were called, and did show up to transport to the hospital.) my nephew is a paramedic, and has delivered babies on the side of the road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I won't get into the reasonableness of requiring everyone to work first shift but I will say that in a lot of areas it is highly unrealistic to expect that young workers will get first shift. You can hope and want but that doesn't mean you are going to get it. Lots of new hires almost always have to take swing and night shifts. In some professions it is not limited to new hires. My husband works in a hospital and after 7 years still gets some swing shifts. He also pulls doubles occasionally when they are short staffed. We don't expect to live in any set shift land, much less first shift. When dss moved back home he got a job on a casino cruise ship. These are the ships that go out past the 2 mile limit, and people can gamble in the ship's casinos. Dss was bartending on the night cruise in one of the ship's bars. The ship usually got back to port around midnight, and by the time he finished closing up (the bar stayed open until they got into port) and got home it was often around 3 am. He would come softly creeping into the house, knowing full well waking the baby would not make his dad or me very happy. He didn't know what he wanted to do and this was a pretty decent job for him while he tried to decide on a career. Funny thing, all these years later he's a firefighter/paramedic, which is definitely not normal first shift work. He's home for 48 hours, and away for 24 hours. Ddil is a night time hospital nurse. If they're both still working in these same careers by the time the grandsons are old enough to work, I doubt they'll forbid those boys to get first shift jobs. They're not likely to require "only second or third shift jobs if you want to live in our house". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 initially after she moved out, they *said* they would give her what she wants - but she had to do what they wanted first. they had even told her they would give her everything she wanted - but they also wanted her to move back home and do whatever they told her. that is NOT the parents being cooperative and treating their child like an adult. that is a direct attempt at manipulating their own adult child. even the oldest two who have drivers licenses, still do not have birth certificates or SSNs - that comes from the siblings own letters and admissions. Actually that is not how I read the parents account of the event. They said she came and got all her stuff and then later they met with her. She told all the stuff she wanted them to change at home. But it was apparent that even when they said yes to everything, she wasn't moving back. Now, I'm fine with her not moving back. Her choice. Of course, I would be willing to work quite a bit with my kid if they wanted to move back. But why should the parents change how everything is at home for someone who isn't going to live in that home? No. I wouldn't do that either. It'd be like if my kid moved out because they hated me waking them up for mass in the morning. And when we got together to try to patch things up and I say, well okay, I will give up daily mass for you. And they said, great but I'm still not moving back home. Uhh. Well then I'm going to mass then?! You don't get to move out and expect to still have a say in how the house is run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This is none of those things. This is not something the parents should have the legal right, imo, to refuse at all. I think an ADULT should not need their parents for any legal need. The parents are not legally responsible for her, so they should not have to give her anything. It irks me that ADULTS need parents to sign and give financial info for college as well. I think that should be illegal. I have no issue jumping the hoop for my kids, but my parents refused and frankly it ticked me off I had to ask at all. I was living on my own as an employed adult. I didn't need their permission and shouldn't have had to ask for even a signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think an ADULT should not need their parents for any legal need. The parents are not legally responsible for her, so they should not have to give her anything. Well, when I became an ADULT my mother gave me all the documents she had been holding on to for her minor child. Once I was an ADULT she gave me my birth certificate, baptism certificate, vaccination records, and any other documents that she said were now my responsibility. As was previously mentioned, we didn't get an SS number until we started work, so I got my own using the documents she gave to me. That's what Alecia's parents should have done over a year ago when she became an ADULT. She shouldn't have had to ask, but once she did they should have handed everything over to her, recognizing that she's an ADULT and those documents are now both her right and her responsibility. No ADULT has the right to withhold documents that rightfully belong to another ADULT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocolatechip Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think an ADULT should not need their parents for any legal need. The parents are not legally responsible for her, so they should not have to give her anything. It irks me that ADULTS need parents to sign and give financial info for college as well. I think that should be illegal. I have no issue jumping the hoop for my kids, but my parents refused and frankly it ticked me off I had to ask at all. I was living on my own as an employed adult. I didn't need their permission and shouldn't have had to ask for even a signature. Yeah, and what about college kids who pay for school on their own because their family can't afford to help, but have to live with less financial aid because aid is mainly calculated on PARENTS' income? It doesn't matter if the kid is even living at home or not. The government still requires parental information until around 24 unless the kid is married. Seriously?!?!? 24???? The FAFSA is messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think an ADULT should not need their parents for any legal need. The parents are not legally responsible for her, so they should not have to give her anything. It irks me that ADULTS need parents to sign and give financial info for college as well. I think that should be illegal. I have no issue jumping the hoop for my kids, but my parents refused and frankly it ticked me off I had to ask at all. I was living on my own as an employed adult. I didn't need their permission and shouldn't have had to ask for even a signature. Under normal circumstances, an adult's parents would have already procured a birth certificate and SSN for their child, and possibly even a passport, and would have helped the child get a driver's license. The parents in this case are in this situation because of their own failure to take these basic steps when their daughter was a child. As for the FAFSA, if parents aren't asked for their financial information, how then would we distribute the available funds for need-based grants and loans in an appropriate way? The current system, while flawed (especially in the case of parents who can't/won't fill out the FAFSA), does assume that college costs will be assumed by the student as much as possible (through cash, work-study, and loans), then his parents (cash and loans), then the neighbors a.k.a. taxpayers (grants and loan subsidies). If you eliminate the requirement that the parents fill out the FAFSA, then the neighbors are going to be asked to pony up for significantly more kids whose parents could well afford to contribute but will no longer have any incentive to do so. It's not a perfect system, but it does seem to be an attempt to distribute the burden of college costs fairly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think an ADULT should not need their parents for any legal need. The parents are not legally responsible for her, so they should not have to give her anything. The young woman has tried to obtain that legal need on her own without her parents. There was no birth certificate recorded for her. When she tried to apply for a delayed birth certificate, she was told she can't get one unless she has three documents verifying her age and citizenship, which she also doesn't have (no) thanks to her parents. The only way she can get the delayed birth certificate is with her parents' help. I don't understand why you would say the parents in this situation shouldn't have to give her anything. It was their negligence or power trip or whatever that put her in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well, when I became an ADULT my mother gave me all the documents she had been holding on to for her minor child. Once I was an ADULT she gave me my birth certificate, baptism certificate, vaccination records, and any other documents that she said were now my responsibility. As was previously mentioned, we didn't get an SS number until we started work, so I got my own using the documents she gave to me. That's what Alecia's parents should have done over a year ago when she became an ADULT. She shouldn't have had to ask, but once she did they should have handed everything over to her, recognizing that she's an ADULT and those documents are now both her right and her responsibility. No ADULT has the right to withhold documents that rightfully belong to another ADULT. The documents don't exist. There is nothing to "hand over." The thing the parent needs to do is provide a signed (perhaps notarized) affidavit regarding the daughter's birth. And perhaps a transcript of her schooling. I believe it's still possible for the daughter to get her bc without this, but not as easily. I am not really sure about the legal right issue. Is there any precedent for the argument that the adult daughter owns a right to compel her parent to sign an affidavit? Or a right to demand anything that doesn't already exist? Where can we find a legal discussion of what non-disabled adult offspring are able to demand of their parents? By the way, her facebook page listed documents she does have, including her baptismal certificate, a couple of doctor visit records, and I don't remember what else. Which is more than I ever got from my parents. My mom gave me my birth certificate only. I've never needed or wanted any others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The young woman has tried to obtain that legal need on her own without her parents. There was no birth certificate recorded for her. When she tried to apply for a delayed birth certificate, she was told she can't get one unless she has three documents verifying her age and citizenship, which she also doesn't have (no) thanks to her parents. The only way she can get the delayed birth certificate is with her parents' help. I don't understand why you would say the parents in this situation shouldn't have to give her anything. It was their negligence or power trip or whatever that put her in this situation. Not trying to speak for Martha, but that wasn't how i read her post. I read it as an adult shouldn't have to depend on their parents to vouch for them, not that the parents shouldn't have to help her. As in, there *should be* a way for her to get the needed documentation without her parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think an ADULT should not need their parents for any legal need. The parents are not legally responsible for her, so they should not have to give her anything. It irks me that ADULTS need parents to sign and give financial info for college as well. I think that should be illegal. I have no issue jumping the hoop for my kids, but my parents refused and frankly it ticked me off I had to ask at all. I was living on my own as an employed adult. I didn't need their permission and shouldn't have had to ask for even a signature. The birth certificate should have been filed for her when she was a newborn. I guess she was a lazy newborn not to have gotten herself out of the crib to do it herself. . . . ? If she had the birth certificate then she could apply for the social security number and all the other things on her own- you know, as an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenC Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I certainly don't agree with denying your child the documents they need to be independent. I also think it's kinda weird that she can't get what she needs as an adult. Further, I do sympathize with the parents. I mean, once you are accused of this kind of thing, even if you refute everything, you still have people who don't believe you. What if there's no abuse? What if the young woman doesn't agree with her parents and is rebelling? Who knows what stories she's told? And who knows what wrongs were really done--maybe it's just something not in the mainstream but still not abusive (and I think the whole "fear of gov't to the point of denying identity stuff" is abusive). I also think they need a mediator, and that the daughter AND the parents AND the grandparents should've gone that route instead of going the "public" route--not because it shouldn't be part of our awareness as a society, but because it's a hell of a lot more productive, and gets rid of that smarmy-looking apparent need for revenge on parents who you now believe raised you in a way that was wrong. So I guess I'm saying I don't know who to believe or what the true motivations are on either side, and that's what's so hard about judging in these cases. Rebelling? She's 19! It's time to move on and make a life for herself. That's got to be very difficult without ANY documentation. I bet she could tell some very interesting stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The documents don't exist. There is nothing to "hand over." The thing the parent needs to do is provide a signed (perhaps notarized) affidavit regarding the daughter's birth. And perhaps a transcript of her schooling. I believe it's still possible for the daughter to get her bc without this, but not as easily. I am not really sure about the legal right issue. Is there any precedent for the argument that the adult daughter owns a right to compel her parent to sign an affidavit? Or a right to demand anything that doesn't already exist? Where can we find a legal discussion of what non-disabled adult offspring are able to demand of their parents? By the way, her facebook page listed documents she does have, including her baptismal certificate, a couple of doctor visit records, and I don't remember what else. Which is more than I ever got from my parents. My mom gave me my birth certificate only. I've never needed or wanted any others. If she has all of that and an affidavit from her grandparents. Then she is full of crap about needing more from her parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Not trying to speak for Martha, but that wasn't how i read her post. I read it as an adult shouldn't have to depend on their parents to vouch for them, not that the parents shouldn't have to help her. As in, there *should be* a way for her to get the needed documentation without her parents. Yes. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If she has all of that and an affidavit from her grandparents. Then she is full of crap about needing more from her parents. Um. The STATE told her that she didn't have enough. So no, she is not full of crap. She's trying to get the documentation that the STATE requires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Honestly. This whole thread reminds me of the cautionary ny times article about public shaming and to hell with facts. There is just a huge amount of info and context we don't know about both parties that would likely make all the difference in opinions over who, if anyone, should be publicly pilloried. I'm more than able to believe the worst of either. That's not particularly difficult. But it doesn't make it correct or the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit29 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If she has all of that and an affidavit from her grandparents. Then she is full of crap about needing more from her parents. I don't know about being full of crap, but I was certainly surprised that she needed more. I was able to obtain documentation with a baptismal record and a a well-child checkup paper when I was about 17. The difference is I was under age, I suppose. It was a hassle, but doable in my case. I was also in another state, which may matter. Anyway, I hope she is able to get what she needs. It's difficult being 19 and unable to start a life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Um. The STATE told her that she didn't have enough. So no, she is not full of crap. She's trying to get the documentation that the STATE requires. Where's the proof the state says that? Because she said so isn't good enough. And the state doesn't just say no. It gives a list of possible documentation options and she can call and ask for help with alternatives. I've never seen the list of options be one thing. If I were her, I'd call and ask what someone in her shoes with deceased parents would need to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 And cue the other crazy homeschooling families..... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952350/Meet-seven-children-grew-NEVER-leaving-tiny-Manhattan-apartment-learned-world-watching-5-000-movies.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If she has all of that and an affidavit from her grandparents. Then she is full of crap about needing more from her parents. If there was a last name change for the whole family after her baptism, she would likely need a copy of the deed poll which I don't know how easy it is to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Where's the proof the state says that? Because she said so isn't good enough. And the state doesn't just say no. It gives a list of possible documentation options and she can call and ask for help with alternatives. I've never seen the list of options be one thing. If I were her, I'd call and ask what someone in her shoes with deceased parents would need to do. Yep. She just made the whole thing up. And by doing so she got...what exactly? BTW, the affidavit from the grandparents may not be acceptable documentation. The grandparents would have to have first hand knowledge of certain information which may not be the case depending on their relationship with the nut case parents at that time. The same is true for the medical records. I am sure she would have found the advice "call and ask what you need" to be helpful. I am sure neither she nor her grandparents thought of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 And cue the other crazy homeschooling families..... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952350/Meet-seven-children-grew-NEVER-leaving-tiny-Manhattan-apartment-learned-world-watching-5-000-movies.html At least they aren't fringe Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 An aside - I thought things have gotten way tougher wrt documentation since the crackdowns on illegal immigrants. I mean you actually do have to prove your birth to claim American citizenship & it strikes me that in some of the conversations there's this willingness/desire to ignore (or just simple disbelief about) the stringency of the rules because she's 'obviously' American. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I already linked the FACTS (aka the actual Texas law which states what is needed if there is a delay in filing of more than 15 years, which is what applies in this case) upthread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yep. She just made the whole thing up. And by doing so she got...what exactly? BTW, the affidavit from the grandparents may not be acceptable documentation. The grandparents would have to have first hand knowledge of certain information which may not be the case depending on their relationship with the nut case parents at that time. The same is true for the medical records. I am sure she would have found the advice "call and ask what you need" to be helpful. I am sure neither she nor her grandparents thought of that. Yes. People make crap up just to screw over other people, even family, all the time. Every single day in fact. I don't know why, but it's still a fact of life. Do you personally know these people well enough to be intimate on the inner workings and behind closed doors struggles in their lives? If not, then why would you presume either is telling the truth and base being okay with this public shaming on that sentiment? I'm presuming nothing of either. All I know is she does not need her parents for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 chocolatechip, on 13 Feb 2015 - 11:27 AM, said: Yeah, and what about college kids who pay for school on their own because their family can't afford to help, but have to live with less financial aid because aid is mainly calculated on PARENTS' income? It doesn't matter if the kid is even living at home or not. The government still requires parental information until around 24 unless the kid is married. Seriously?!?!? 24???? The FAFSA is messed up. my niece was able to get herself declared emancipated so her parents income became irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 first shift world - wow, never heard that phrase. It strikes me your family must be excluding a bunch of occupations. I worked shifts for years in law enforcement. My dd works in animal health care and I come from a family with a lot of various health care workers. Shifts are just reality for all of us. I cannot imagine asking adult kids to not take certain jobs or pursue certain professions (or actually even asking them to get up at certain times even if not job related...) And to each family their own. Dh and I have always been very early risers, and I'm with Artichoke--everyone in OUR family knows that we will protect his ability to sleep (for years he was the sole income and had to be very sharp on his job) unless we've planned a rare exception, and then he will gladly deal. When my kids have friends over--and they do--the kids all know that after X time, it's a quiet zone. Now that the kids are young adults, they come and go as they please, but they do so *very quietly* if it is after hours. If we had a large age range, and it required the little ones to be quiet during the day while a young adult slept due to their job, it would be really, really difficult--and not good for either party. While I don't think we'd outright veto a second or third shift job, the young adult would understand that it would come with some costs, as young children shouldn't have to tiptoe all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 From what I understand, in that state there is a law (even when this girl was born) that said that the midwife had to register the birth. She didn't. So. . . this sort of thing still happens when people disregard the law. Alecia claimed to have spoken to the midwife but the midwife was unsupportive. She could send a letter requesting copies of her medical records from her birth and threaten legal action if it is not provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readinmom Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Read on Facebook that she asked people not to bash her parents' reputation. I think she opened that door by taking to social media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yes. People make crap up just to screw over other people, even family, all the time. Every single day in fact. I don't know why, but it's still a fact of life. Do you personally know these people well enough to be intimate on the inner workings and behind closed doors struggles in their lives? If not, then why would you presume either is telling the truth and base being okay with this public shaming on that sentiment? I'm presuming nothing of either. All I know is she does not need her parents for this. You keep saying the bolded but that is not always the case. I linked what is required earlier in this thread and it *depends* on what documents she has available. Why do I think she is telling the truth? 1.) Her story sounds plausible and there is nothing tangible to gain by making it up. 2.) The parents don't deny it. They acknowledge she doesn't have a birth certificate and admit to not wanting to give her what she is asking for unless she meets their demands. (Well, at least until the father said they would now cooperate.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Alecia claimed to have spoken to the midwife but the midwife was unsupportive. She could send a letter requesting copies of her medical records from her birth and threaten legal action if it is not provided. Odds a midwife has kept records from a birth 19 years ago? Slim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 In my day, nobody had a SSN until they wanted a temporary driving permit. You didn't need one for anything until you wanted to drive or have a regular paying job. We did have a bc and we used it to apply for the SSN. I don't think SSN is a big deal at all. I'm wondering how old you are, because I'm 51 and my parents got my social security number for me when I was a baby. I don't recall any of my friends needing to apply for SSNs when we were applying for our first jobs or getting our driver's permits or licenses, either. I'm pretty sure everyone already had their SSNs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valley Girl Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I won't get into the reasonableness of requiring everyone to work first shift but I will say that in a lot of areas it is highly unrealistic to expect that young workers will get first shift. You can hope and want but that doesn't mean you are going to get it. Lots of new hires almost always have to take swing and night shifts. In some professions it is not limited to new hires. My husband works in a hospital and after 7 years still gets some swing shifts. He also pulls doubles occasionally when they are short staffed. We don't expect to live in any set shift land, much less first shift. That is true. However, if the adult child who is working the second or third shift has unreasonable expectations of the rest of the family and what they need to do to accommodate him, then you have a conflict. From what Artichoke wrote, it sounds as though that's what happened. In her case, they didn't make the "first shift only" rule arbitrarily. If the adult child insists on 100% quiet and younger siblings are being homeschooled, whose needs take priority? Should a parent have to leave the house with the younger kids? Maybe she would if it were the other parent who had the swing shift. But I think it's fair--in that situation--to tell an adult child it's not going to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am 57. My parents did not get social security numbers for us until the third or fourth child was born, so I was either 9 or 14. We have sequential social security numbers, as if we are triplets or quadruplets. And they didn't need to put them on their taxes then, either. That was a later requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 She wouldn't need her parents now as an adult for anything... if they had fulfilled their obligations to her when she was still a minor. Which by all their own statements they did not. They did not document her birth. That is an obligation we have to our children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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