If You Were A Christian And Now You're Not...

[DragonFaerie]

I have never been able to sum up my dissatisfaction with Christianity in a very succinct way. I agree with a lot of what has already been said about the conflicting and contradictory stories and teachings. But probably the biggest problem I have with it is the..... Ugh. I can't find the words. If something wonderful happens, it's "God's will." If something terrible happens, it's not God's fault. It's man's flaws or inherent evil or whatever it is. I hate being told to kowtow to a deity, beg forgiveness on bended knee for being human. I can't get behind the idea of a "loving" God that would condemn people to a place such as hell for something so inane as not saying "I believe in Jesus." I just think so much of it is flawed. I prefer to believe in my own power, my own inner Goddess, my own connection with the energy of the universe that flows around and through me, that interconnectedness. I know I'm not explaining myself very well here. Can I blame my lack of eloquence on being a fat, tattooed Wiccan witch? :D

[BlsdMama]

Sorry. No. You don't get to give multiple choice tests on beliefs of others, and you certainly aren't the definitive on who or what Jesus could or could not be. And dragging out hackneyed chestnuts like this one doesn't help your argument at all.

 

Some of us don't think the Gospels are anything more than stories. Some of us just think Jesus was a regular guy who told a few good stories and had a few good ideas -- and nothing more.

 

 

Okay, let me rephrase... You're right. People can "feel" however they like.

 

However, can one really make what is written about Jesus' actions and words really fit in with the picture that He was not the Christ and was really just a nice, down to earth guy with some really sweet ideas? Not in one's own head, but from the "good stories" we have of him? He was absolutely radical for His time. He claimed to be the long awaited Savior of the world.

 

I actually don't love arguing. :( It's not my cup of tea and it stresses me out. But there is this overarching belief that he was just this wonderful man/boy in history that was just full of good ideas and he was a "nice" guy. What we know, from the gospels, doesn't support that. It really only supports one of those three conclusions, no?

 

In the end, please know, the Christians who try so desperately to convert, they don't hate you. Goodness they don't even dislike you. Think of it this way - if your neighbor saw you standing in a burning house, what kind of man would he be to stand idly by? What kind of human would that make him. To stand there, saying, "Oh, well, goodness, I guess she'll be fine... Or well, maybe not. Oh well, not my problem." Now, if you LIKED your house, you're right, he has no right to drag you out of kicking or screaming (or like in the Crusades just decide to kill you instead of letting the house burn - obviously misguided) but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you? That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

[FairyMom]

I have never been able to sum up my dissatisfaction with Christianity in a very succinct way. I agree with a lot of what has already been said about the conflicting and contradictory stories and teachings. But probably the biggest problem I have with it is the..... Ugh. I can't find the words. If something wonderful happens, it's "God's will." If something terrible happens, it's not God's fault. It's man's flaws or inherent evil or whatever it is. I hate being told to kowtow to a deity, beg forgiveness on bended knee for being human. I can't get behind the idea of a "loving" God that would condemn people to a place such as hell for something so inane as not saying "I believe in Jesus." I just think so much of it is flawed. I prefer to believe in my own power, my own inner Goddess, my own connection with the energy of the universe that flows around and through me, that interconnectedness. I know I'm not explaining myself very well here. Can I blame my lack of eloquence on being a fat, tattooed Wiccan witch? :D

 

:iagree: I like fat, tattooed, Wiccan witches. One goes to our church. :)

[amey311]

Just want to echo the comment about Deism. And to the previous poster who mentioned the idea of Jesus being a Buddhist, I offer you Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff.

[Rosie_0801]

That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel.

 

You don't need to worry that we are unfamiliar with this viewpoint.

 

Rosie

[Frances]

You don't need to worry that we are unfamiliar with this viewpoint.

 

Rosie

 

:iagree:

 

And I've just never been able to wrap my head around the idea that fundamentalist/evangelical Christians therefore think the majority of the people in the world are going to he**. I simply can't comprehend being so sure that all of the other religions (and even many Christians) have it all wrong.

 

I was raised Catholic and surrounded by many Protestants, but wasn't exposed to this view until college. And twenty-five years later I still find it unfathomable.

[kubiac]

In the end, please know, the Christians who try so desperately to convert, they don't hate you. Goodness they don't even dislike you. Think of it this way - if your neighbor saw you standing in a burning house, what kind of man would he be to stand idly by? What kind of human would that make him. To stand there, saying, "Oh, well, goodness, I guess she'll be fine... Or well, maybe not. Oh well, not my problem." Now, if you LIKED your house, you're right, he has no right to drag you out of kicking or screaming (or like in the Crusades just decide to kill you instead of letting the house burn - obviously misguided) but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you? That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

 

We godless heathens appreciate the general intention of this charitable outreach, but please take into account how wildly patronizing this is, and how this thinking leads to yes, the Crusades, and missionary-led imperialism, and all manner of like-minded depredations on people who were just minding their own business thankyouverymuch.

 

Furthermore, our houses are not actually on fire. I know you're just making an analogy and a point, but in the grand scheme of things, this is the kind of fantastical/magical thinking that we non-believers have intentionally chosen to reject.

 

In short: We don't need to be saved because we were never in any danger.

 

Sorry, this sounds very terse and tense and harsh, but I have a mortal fear of being proselytized to. I'm always afraid I'm going to be cornered by a missionary or a true believer and in a panic lash out and reveal my darkest, most disrespectful feelings about the whole matter.

Edited September 1, 2012 by kubiac

[livetoread]

I could give a long version of how I lost not just my Christianity but my theism, but I'll give the short version.

1) The problem of evil

2) The hiddenness of God

3) Asking myself the following question, "Does our world reflect a world in which there is a benevolent, powerful, intervening deity who acts in ways described by most Christians?" and had to conclude that the answer is not really, no. I read many attempts to argue otherwise while fighting hard to hang on to my faith and found them unconvincing.

 

I could no longer go through the mental gymnastics necessary to try and reconcile what I saw in the world versus the claims Christianity made about that world and its God. It was a philosophical and scientific disconnect that had nothing to do with the actual Christians I know. Most are good, decent people, just like most of the non-Christians I know. Some are not, just like the non-Christians I know.

[La Texican]

but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you? That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

 

My religious views are intolerant and rarely expressed. *They are similar to George Carlin's "religion is b.s." spiel. *"He loves you sooooo much, but he'll destroy you forever if you don't obey him. *Also, he seems to be bad at finances because he's always asking for your money". *

 

If I truly believe religion is b.s. then it is like you're talking gibberish and I can only smile and be polite. *It's nice to know if you don't believe in God, you're not alone. **

 

"Jesus was a Capricorn,

He ate organic foods,

He walked around with long-haired men,

He didn't wear no shoes". -anonymous

 

Um. Where's the paperbag head smiley?

Here's the witch shoes:

 

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Rancho-Hipster-Mexican-Pointy-Boots-/00/s/NjEyWDYxMg==/$(KGrHqN,!jME+t4DcuF+BQF-V9IzNg~~60_3.JPG

[Mom in High Heels]

I was certain this thread would be shut down when I got up. I'm happy to see that it's not.

 

Okay, let me rephrase... You're right. People can "feel" however they like.

 

How gracious.

 

However, can one really make what is written about Jesus' actions and words really fit in with the picture that He was not the Christ and was really just a nice, down to earth guy with some really sweet ideas? Not in one's own head, but from the "good stories" we have of him? He was absolutely radical for His time. He claimed to be the long awaited Savior of the world.

 

Yes, I really can.

 

I actually don't love arguing. :( It's not my cup of tea and it stresses me out. But there is this overarching belief that he was just this wonderful man/boy in history that was just full of good ideas and he was a "nice" guy. What we know, from the gospels, doesn't support that. It really only supports one of those three conclusions, no?

 

No.

 

In the end, please know, the Christians who try so desperately to convert, they don't hate you.

They don't respect me either. If they did, they'd get the message to let me be. It's not their business what I do as long as I'm not hurting anyone. If they want to pray for my immoral, dammed soul because it gives them comfort, it doesn't bother me at all. It doesn't particularly move me either as I really feel it is more their own comfort than mine. Just let me live my life and accept that I don't believe. You can talk to me until you're as blue as this script and it's not going to change my mind. It's going to annoy me, but not sway me. I've given this a lot more thought than you.

Goodness they don't even dislike you. Think of it this way - if your neighbor saw you standing in a burning house, what kind of man would he be to stand idly by? What kind of human would that make him. To stand there, saying, "Oh, well, goodness, I guess she'll be fine... Or well, maybe not. Oh well, not my problem." Now, if you LIKED your house, you're right, he has no right to drag you out of kicking or screaming (or like in the Crusades just decide to kill you instead of letting the house burn - obviously misguided) but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you?

 

My house isn't on fire. I don't need to be saved.

 

That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

 

Not intolerant? Seriously? If many Christians (not all) weren't intolerant, we wouldn't have them trying to make everyone else just like them and excluding those who aren't. And, it absolutely IS about wanting to be right. YOU (general) want ME to believe what you are saying, and therefore proving that YOU are RIGHT. It IS about winning an argument. If it weren't, Christians would leave those of us who don't believe alone and quit arguing that they are so CLEARLY RIGHT.

 

I don't buy your stories, I don't buy your religion and I'm tired of you (general) trying to sell it to me. While I understand you think you're tryin to help, *I* don't want or need it and when I say no, let me be. No means no. I'm not telling you how to live your life and how misguided I think you are (I've always found the shepherd and sheep very apt), so I'd appreciate the same consideration. Live your life and be happy and let me do the same.

[Laura Corin]

"I'm not saying it's just the hypocrite issue that we have to watch out for, though that was a repetitive one. But even the ones that didn't state hypocrites in their top reasons for leaving Christianity, it was often things equally meaningless (in terms of searching for the truth) like feeling unwelcome, things they didn't like, other ideas they found more appealing, etc. All these things are missing the point." TaraJo

 

Why did you come to this thread to argue with people? The thread asked for the experiences of a particular set of people. You do not seem to be one of those people.

 

I have been reading this thread with interest but have not posted anything substantive because I am not part of that set. I have never believed in God (well, I worshipped a copper beech for a bit when I was small, but it didn't represent dendritic Christianity) so my experience would not be relevant.

 

Please don't gate crash other people's parties.

 

Laura (apologies for weird quoting)

[Free]

But there is this overarching belief that he was just this wonderful man/boy in history that was just full of good ideas and he was a "nice" guy. What we know, from the gospels, doesn't support that. It really only supports one of those three conclusions, no?

 

A piece of text can be interpreted in myriad different ways. There can most definitely be more than 3 ways of looking at the same stories.

 

In the end, please know, the Christians who try so desperately to convert, they don't hate you. Goodness they don't even dislike you. Think of it this way - if your neighbor saw you standing in a burning house, what kind of man would he be to stand idly by? What kind of human would that make him. To stand there, saying, "Oh, well, goodness, I guess she'll be fine... Or well, maybe not. Oh well, not my problem." Now, if you LIKED your house, you're right, he has no right to drag you out of kicking or screaming (or like in the Crusades just decide to kill you instead of letting the house burn - obviously misguided) but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you?

 

If I was standing in my home and my neighbour rushed in yelling that my house is burning, trying to "save" me, I would consider him insane. If my neighbour kept insisting my house is not good enough, I would consider him judgemental and rude.

 

That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

 

This is the definition of tolerance from dictionary.com:

 

tol·er·ance   [tol-er-uhns]

noun

1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

 

So no, there is no tolerance in what you just said. As long as you believe that there can be only one right way to believe and to live, there can be no tolerance.

[Laura Corin]

Think of it this way - if your neighbor saw you standing in a burning house, what kind of man would he be to stand idly by? What kind of human would that make him. To stand there, saying, "Oh, well, goodness, I guess she'll be fine... Or well, maybe not. Oh well, not my problem." Now, if you LIKED your house, you're right, he has no right to drag you out of kicking or screaming (or like in the Crusades just decide to kill you instead of letting the house burn - obviously misguided) but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you? That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

 

The polite thing is to ask. If my house looks like it's burning down I could be having a really good fireworks display. I could be burning leaves. I could have loaned the house to a film company for a really big cheque and they are going to restore it afterwards.

 

What a Christian 'really truly believe' is irrelevant. It's polite to ask and then take no for an answer.

 

Concerned neighbour: Excuse me, I think I can see flames coming out of the house.

Me: Oh, don't worry, that's just the film crew.

 

End of story. Concerned neighbour walks away.

 

ETA: note that the neighbour did not say 'You are all going to die in the flames if you don't come with me'. The question was tentative, polite.

 

Laura

Edited September 1, 2012 by Laura Corin

[kalanamak]

What I can't understand is women on this board opening themselves up for the abuse they knew they were going to get when they posted.

 

An incredible sacrifice I suppose, throwing oneself under the bus to be honest and speak what they believe.

 

I understand not believing.

 

What I don't understand is fully believing and walking away because HUMANS disappointed you? If Christ was RIGHT in your mind, how could you let the mistakes made by very fallible Christian believers sway you from what you believed was right? Either you never believed or you took your eyes off Christ and put your expectations in people, no? :(

 

People will always let you down. They are fallible. They get confused, they get lost, they choose wrong.

 

I'm not a Christian follower. I am a Christ follower. If I look all around I can find 1,000,000 people to let me down. Myself included in that tally. Thank God my faith doesn't depend on the actions of humans. I would be so heartbroken and disappointed.

 

If you read my post about my husband, he left the church because he got exposed to new things.

 

I'm sorry people let you down so much. I've had my ups and downs, but I have know many kind and brave people who do their best and I've not felt let down by them. We had a gunman in the bank recently, ready to shoot his wife after smacking her into the glass. While everyone was trying to get out, there were a pair of little girls frozen. My friend stopped her beeline out and veered over to them to shoo them out. She thought she was going to be killed, but she didn't just forget them. I see wonderful and brave people every day.

[LucyStoner]

It's a mixed bag for me. I was raised devoutly Catholic with a politically progressive slant. My dad's family is a big (and I mean big) group of loud (and I mean loud) Irish Catholics with big pro labor Democrat values. When I was a child, it was assumed by me and those around me that I would enter religious life and service as a nun. I can't stress enough how firmly I believed at that time. I am now more a believer in the right kind of church, community snd service than I am a Christian. A lot of things happened between ages 11 and 19 for me, roughly in this order:

 

1. I remember reading a line in a book where a boy was very concerned that his not Christian friend who had died was going to hell. His dad told him "God ain't gonna send no little girls to heaven." and it hit me like a ton of bricks that I agreed with that. I had just started to be exposed to people outside the church more and I realized that their were some very good people who were not Christians.

 

2. I realized that the possibility of God only manifesting himself to one small group of people (in the context of all the world's religions) was highly arrogant.

 

3. I learned more about the Bible and how much the various versions differed and how many things were very conveniently translated. I can see truth in the Bible, but it is not the only place I see it. I can not see a much translated, edited and selectively chosen book as the inerrant word of God when it was written and rewritten by human, fallible people. I knew then that even if I was still a Christian, I was not a bible believing one.

 

4. I saw too many people shoving parts of the bible down other people's throats while conveniently ignoring parts in their own life. Most commonly what was ignored was the parts that were hard, rather than judgmental. It is hard to sell all that you own and give to the poor. It is hard to turn the other cheek and forgive. It seemed many used it to support hateful views about women, gays and non believers rather than give and serve. It didn't help that the worst ones I saw were in my family on my mother's side who were/are all truly exceptionally nasty peeps and evangelical Protestants. Not that they reflect all evangelical Protestants but it was a pretty in your face turn off. My mom was their black sheep for becoming Catholic but she was also the only one who'd never been to prison, battled addiction, been a sex worker or beat her kids. Again, I grasp that my nutty family (they are lunatics, no two ways about it) is not a reflection on most other evangelicals.

 

5. My brother (a gay transsexual) was told he was doomed by an Episcopalian priest at a moment he was contemplating sucide. He was subsequently in a hospital for a stretch. I had some mighty harsh words with that man over that. For a long time I tried to rationalize it as being this one priest but I realized it was very much a wide spread belief in many churches.

 

6. I sat with too many scared as all hell pregnant (most Protestants from a church camp I attended for 4 years) Christian teens and talked them through their options as a peer. I can not express the degree to which I was disgusted that their parents had them so scared to come home pregnant that they couldn't turn to their parents. Most chose to have an abortion despite their previous anti-abortion, pro-life feelings. I also noted that none of my secular friends were going through this. Not because they aborted, but because they didn't get pregnant in the first place. Most of my secular friends weren't even sexually active that young. It seemed to me that the prolife, anti bc, anti sex rhetoric was making my friends less safe because they could not, under any circumstances admit they had engaged in sex and go home pregnant.

 

7. I met a boy in college. He was kinda awesome and still is. We've been married 10 years. That meant being a nun was out the window. And I realized I had lost more than just my will to be celibate and unmarried but the beliefs that had been the basis for feeling called in the first place.

 

I stumbled in and out of various Catholic churches and then to an American Baptist congregation. We still attend but it is for the church and not the truth in any absolute definitive source. The minister even acknowledges this. It works for us. For now. No telling where we might go next. Long road!

[Carrie12345]

Sorry, this sounds very terse and tense and harsh, but I have a mortal fear of being proselytized to. I'm always afraid I'm going to be cornered by a missionary or a true believer and in a panic lash out and reveal my darkest, most disrespectful feelings about the whole matter.

 

THIS!

This is exactly why I said my full, honest answer would probably shut the thread down way back on page 2ish. I know my answer is unavoidably insulting to believers. I don't throw it around willy nilly, but if someone is going to be a real jerk and push me into it... and then I'd get to be painted as the cruel one. @@

[delaney]

Okay, let me rephrase... You're right. People can "feel" however they like.

 

However, can one really make what is written about Jesus' actions and words really fit in with the picture that He was not the Christ and was really just a nice, down to earth guy with some really sweet ideas? Not in one's own head, but from the "good stories" we have of him? He was absolutely radical for His time. He claimed to be the long awaited Savior of the world.

 

I actually don't love arguing. :( It's not my cup of tea and it stresses me out. But there is this overarching belief that he was just this wonderful man/boy in history that was just full of good ideas and he was a "nice" guy. What we know, from the gospels, doesn't support that. It really only supports one of those three conclusions, no?

 

In the end, please know, the Christians who try so desperately to convert, they don't hate you. Goodness they don't even dislike you. Think of it this way - if your neighbor saw you standing in a burning house, what kind of man would he be to stand idly by? What kind of human would that make him. To stand there, saying, "Oh, well, goodness, I guess she'll be fine... Or well, maybe not. Oh well, not my problem." Now, if you LIKED your house, you're right, he has no right to drag you out of kicking or screaming (or like in the Crusades just decide to kill you instead of letting the house burn - obviously misguided) but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you? That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

 

Everything you say comes from the standpoint, "Well, Jesus is Christ and you are wrong for not believing it." You do not need to impart your rightness on people who do not feel wrong. YOU feel we are wrong. I am fine with what I believe and am insulted by your insistence that I am basically denying the undeniable. For the me the bible is a book with pages created by the church to manipulate the masses into behaving.

How would it sound if I say that I was sorry you believed in a the contrived religion that was handed to you? What if I said that your religion was based on nothing tangible but a book who they don't even know wrote and that your beliefs are all based on fear of the unknown?

 

If I don't believe in God and Jesus then why would anything you have to say make sense? I was given religion by my parents. I don't agree with it as an adult. To me it is all very cultish and creepy with the robes, communion, chanting......

[Runningmom80]

Of course I can. I can choose to think he was a peace-loving, hippie, liberal if I want to.

 

I actually do think this! :lol:

[Ipsey]

Many Christians would find the first choice almost heretical. We spent 2000 year bickering to decide Jesus was fully divine but also fully human. It sort of glosses over that bit.

 

Quite right. Holderman Mennonites (Church of God in Christ, Menonite) is a plain group that's been around for hundreds of years, and they hold to the belief that Jesus was fully God, but not fully man. I'm sure there are more denominations, but they're the first that pops into my head.

 

But I'm sure they're not actually Christian according to some. :)

 

Funny how the goal-posts keep moving.

[Ipsey]

Oh, here's an interesting thing for the OP.

 

The Clergy Project is an online community for ministers/pastors/nuns/missionaries/monks/priests/rabbi etc. who no longer believe and are either transitioning out, or hiding out because they're afraid of losing families, income etc.

 

It kind of puts the lie to that everyone who leaves Christianity doesn't know anything about Jesus/God/the Bible

 

You might learn from reading some of the testimonials there, but the community is closed for the security of those involved. You can also read at the FB site https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Clergy-Project/203725383030148

 

Albert Mohler of the Southern Baptist Seminary just got his panties in a wad over this study and community. He criticized the project and those who are in community there for being hypocrites. He doesn't seem to understand that there have always been people struggling in the ministry, and that many people who have made a living by their religion can't just dump it 20 years in and find a new career. If a person has only an education in their religion and preaching. . . that's a tough sell if you no longer believe. That's why this group exists, to help those who are stuck, struggling, and disbelieving and feeling guilty, but have no other recourse.

[ChristyB in TN]

I am editing to delete my initial post here. I thought the op had sincere questions, I was wrong. Bowing out.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Mad Charity
Don't want to be involved

[Ipsey]

In the end, please know, the Christians who try so desperately to convert, they don't hate you. Goodness they don't even dislike you. Think of it this way - if your neighbor saw you standing in a burning house, what kind of man would he be to stand idly by? What kind of human would that make him. To stand there, saying, "Oh, well, goodness, I guess she'll be fine... Or well, maybe not. Oh well, not my problem." Now, if you LIKED your house, you're right, he has no right to drag you out of kicking or screaming (or like in the Crusades just decide to kill you instead of letting the house burn - obviously misguided) but if he really, truly believed your house was going to burn around you and killed you, wouldn't human decency require that he say something to you? That's about how fundamentalist Christians think/feel. It isn't hatred. It isn't intolerance. It isn't wanting to be right. It isn't winning an argument. :(

 

 

I drove away one of my dearest friends because of my ceaseless prostlytizing.

Yes, I loved her dearly. I felt that Jesus could give her hope for her life and afterlife. I felt she was going to burn down in the house you describe.

 

What I should have done was trusted in that deity to show compassion and mercy rather than drop-kicking her into hell for her disbelief. Instead, she left the mainland US to get away from me, and we have been estranged for years. When I left the faith we exchanged several emails, and I asked for her forgiveness.

 

Forgiven, but it doesn't change the outcome of our friendship.

 

If you really feel that your god is powerful enough to save, while still being jolly enough to send billions to hell in his righteousness, stop using these really awful arguments on us. Many of us believed what you now believe! For those unsure, you're driving people away (which is fine by me, but I'm trying to do you a favor here). Do you understand? Really, the best thing a religious person can do in a thread like this is shut up and pray. Or at least just shut up--this is supposed to be a thread for former-Christians. Anyway, that's what I learned.

 

Or, you can just chalk this up to the fact that you and your beliefs are being rejected (as you knew they would be) because we're deceived by Satan--just as the Bible said. And there you have it, one one more self-fulfilling prophecy that helps to bolster your belief in your faith. So, this is partly about you too, as all evangelism is.

[FairyMom]

 

If you really feel that your god is powerful enough to save, while still being jolly enough to send billions to hell in his righteousness, stop using these really awful arguments on us. Many of us believed what you now believe! For those unsure, you're driving people away (which is fine by me, but I'm trying to do you a favor here). Do you understand? Really, the best thing a religious person can do in a thread like this is shut up and pray. Or at least just shut up--this is supposed to be a thread for former-Christians. Anyway, that's what I learned.

 

Or, you can just chalk this up to the fact that you and your beliefs are being rejected (as you knew they would be) because we're deceived by Satan--just as the Bible said. And there you have it, one one more self-fulfilling prophecy that helps to bolster your belief in your faith. So, this is partly about you too, as all evangelism is.

 

Well said!! :iagree:

 

Sorry about your relationship with your friend. Something similar happened to me about ten years ago.

[Firefly]

I personally believe the Bible holds truths that teach us lessons about life and living as children of God, but is not necessarily purely factual. A great deal of it is metaphorical in nature with historical elements. Yes, I have read it from cover to cover, many parts in very great depth. In fact, there are scholars out there who are experts on the Bible and religion who believe the things that I have said here. I am not just spouting off some personal "feel good" philosophy.

 

I never thought it was purely factual either. Even so, much of it wasn't something I could understand or agree with.

 

Something else I didn't mention in my initial post; Christianity left me feeling spiritually motherless. There were no women, no aspect of female in the divine. That just didn't work for me either. A holy trinity of father, son and ...ghost? The idea of a spiritual Father, Mother and son made more sense. I remember being in church as a teen wondering about that and feeling that the "holy ghost/spirit" might have been that of the murdered "mother" (divine feminine). Yeah, even as a kid I spent way too much time in my own head. LOL

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

Edited September 1, 2012 by Shari
Erasing ... 'cause it just doesn't matter

[Onceuponatime]

I never thought it was purely factual either. Even so, much of it wasn't something I could understand or agree with.

 

Something else I didn't mention in my initial post; Christianity left me feeling spiritually motherless. There were no women, no aspect of female in the divine. That just didn't work for me either. A holy trinity of father, son and ...ghost? The idea of a spiritual Father, Mother and son made more sense. I remember being in church as a teen wondering about that and feeling that the "holy ghost/spirit" might have been that of the murdered "mother" (divine feminine). Yeah, even as a kid I spent way too much time in my own head. LOL

 

I think a lot of the problems that people have with the Bible are because it is a reflection of the times it was written and the people who wrote it, and they were a patriarichal lot. Of course that needs to be taken into consideration when reading the Bible.

 

I can't remember where I was reading, I think it might be one of Karen Armstrong's books, but there is archaeological evidence that worship of the divine feminine may have been one of the first forms of organized/ritual religion.

[FairyMom]

I never thought it was purely factual either. Even so, much of it wasn't something I could understand or agree with.

 

Something else I didn't mention in my initial post; Christianity left me feeling spiritually motherless. There were no women, no aspect of female in the divine. That just didn't work for me either. A holy trinity of father, son and ...ghost? The idea of a spiritual Father, Mother and son made more sense. I remember being in church as a teen wondering about that and feeling that the "holy ghost/spirit" might have been that of the murdered "mother" (divine feminine). Yeah, even as a kid I spent way too much time in my own head. LOL

 

I had some of the same thoughts. When I found out my name (Cynthia) meant moon goddess, I thought, why were there no goddesses?

[Lady Florida.]

I'm always afraid I'm going to be cornered by a missionary or a true believer and in a panic lash out and reveal my darkest, most disrespectful feelings about the whole matter.

 

THIS!

This is exactly why I said my full, honest answer would probably shut the thread down way back on page 2ish. I know my answer is unavoidably insulting to believers. I don't throw it around willy nilly, but if someone is going to be a real jerk and push me into it... and then I'd get to be painted as the cruel one. @@

 

:iagree: I don't think the Christians involved in this thread realize how much some of us are holding back. I don't believe religion (any religion, not just Christianity) should get a pass, but I hold my tongue even IRL because the people involved are people I care about.

[FairyMom]

:iagree: I don't think the Christians involved in this thread realize how much some of us are holding back. I don't believe religion (any religion, not just Christianity) should get a pass, but I hold my tongue even IRL because the people involved are people I care about.

 

Exactly. I've held my tongue and tried to just say "Not the point of this thread," when I wanted to say so much more. It is unusual to be a non-believer where I live. I hold my tongue every day. I do tell people at work or the grocery store when they bring god up that I don't believe. I get jaw dropping looks, but I'm not bothered as much with religious babble if I just constantly "come out."

[Lady Florida.]

I never thought it was purely factual either. Even so, much of it wasn't something I could understand or agree with.

 

Something else I didn't mention in my initial post; Christianity left me feeling spiritually motherless. There were no women, no aspect of female in the divine. That just didn't work for me either. A holy trinity of father, son and ...ghost? The idea of a spiritual Father, Mother and son made more sense. I remember being in church as a teen wondering about that and feeling that the "holy ghost/spirit" might have been that of the murdered "mother" (divine feminine). Yeah, even as a kid I spent way too much time in my own head. LOL

 

In my research when I first started questioning my beliefs, I ran across information that indicated the god of Abraham once had a wife. She was written out for a number of reasons, but mostly because the society was so patriarchal.

[Hannah]

nm

 

Shari,

 

I would have liked to read what you have to say.

Your thoughts/opinions/feelings about the topic do matter

[Paisley Hedgehog]

Hannah, PM'd you.

[Lady Florida.]

I think a lot of the problems that people have with the Bible are because it is a reflection of the times it was written and the people who wrote it, and they were a patriarichal lot. Of course that needs to be taken into consideration when reading the Bible.

 

 

But we are taught that the wisdom of the bible is timeless. There's even a hymn, Ancient Words, that I once thought was lovely. It's either a product of its time or it's timeless. It can't be both.

 

I know the point of this thread isn't to pick apart Christianity, and that's not what I'm trying to do, but these are some of the things I considered in my deconversion. A lot of the things that people are bringing up as reasons why one should believe, are the same things that gave me reasons not to believe. Reasons why we left was part of the OP's question.

 

I don't know anyone who left Christianity, whether for another religion or no religion, who just woke up one day and thought, "Eh, I don't believe this anymore". There were a lot of little things and big things that went into my decision.

[Firefly]

I had some of the same thoughts. When I found out my name (Cynthia) meant moon goddess, I thought, why were there no goddesses?

 

:iagree: And how cool that your name means moon goddess!

 

In my research when I first started questioning my beliefs, I ran across information that indicated the god of Abraham once had a wife. She was written out for a number of reasons, but mostly because the society was so patriarchal.

 

Interesting. I remember hearing someone suggest that the Vatican has a gospel written by a woman (Mary Magdalen?) but that that and some of Jesus' teaching as related to women are being kept under lock and key because they are a threat to patriarchy.

[GWOB]

Of course I can. I can choose to think he was a peace-loving, hippie, liberal if I want to.

 

:lol: I'm a practicing, sunday-school teaching Lutheran and I believe this about Jesus!

 

I don't mean to crash this thread. I've been reading it since the beginning. I just had to respond to FairyMom.

[WIS0320]

I am editing to delete my initial post here. I thought the op had sincere questions, I was wrong. Bowing out.

 

I'm so sorry you feel this way. My question was sincere and I've learned a lot reading this thread. I appreciate those who have responded very much.

 

ETA: My mother has become progressively more agnostic over the last 20 years and I've moved towards orthodox Christianity. But at the same time I have head scratching moments where I wonder just what the heck I am doing. I DO believe but sometimes it feels like so much work and there are things that seem nonsensical about it all to me. I also almost converted to the Baha'i faith a number of years ago, it isn't like I haven't thought a lot about religion and what its purpose is in my life. It's complicated and this is not an easy conversation to have with other believers. I'm not in this thread to try and convert anyone, I am simply trying to process my own beliefs.

Edited September 1, 2012 by drexel
adding text

[Hannah]

I don't know anyone who left Christianity, whether for another religion or no religion, who just woke up one day and thought, "Eh, I don't believe this anymore". There were a lot of little things and big things that went into my decision.

 

Exactly. In a way I envy people who are absolutely sure of their belief. I have never been. I probably don't have the gene. I remember questioning the contradictions in the bible and the "why's" I had in Sunday school getting the 'just believe' answer. I earnestly prayed that I would learn to 'just believe' and be a better Christian, but it just never happened.

 

It took many years of questioning, soul-searching, reading, study and maturity to get to the point of saying that I just don't believe. I can't.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Hannah
Bad grammar - as usual

[Onceuponatime]

But we are taught that the wisdom of the bible is timeless. There's even a hymn, Ancient Words, that I once thought was lovely. It's either a product of its time or it's timeless. It can't be both.

 

.

 

Why can't it be both? Isn't that why we study the classics because they are timeless? Yet they are also products of their times. They teach us things about ourselves and humanity, including our faults and foibles.

 

The Bible is also a classic collection of writings. It does not claim to be the word of God. People claim that. That doesn't negate the fact that a lot of wisdom, and even history (from a certain point of view), can be found among the various books.

 

Another part of the problem is that because of the history of Christianity so many people bring a lot of emotional baggage to the Bible when they read it or when they talk about it. It can be treated like any other historic relgious document and valued for its insights into philosophy, history, and humankind's desire for a higher power.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Onceuponatime

[sparrow]

Exactly. In a way I envy people who are absolutely sure of their belief. I have never been. I probably don't have the gene. I remember questioning the contradictions in the bible and the "why's" I had in Sunday school getting the 'just believe' answer. I earnestly prayed that I would learn to 'just believe' and be a better Christian, but it just never happened.

 

It took many years of questioning, soul-searching, reading, study and maturity to get to the point of saying that I just don't believe. I can't.

 

I could have written this.

 

I do actually wonder if there is something to the "religion gene". My children have been raised in the same house, with the same exposure to religious concepts and religions. Dh and I both identify as agnostic. My daughter has been naturally skeptical from day one. She questions everything-"why do people believe this?" etc. My son seems to naturally be drawn to faith and a belief in God. Because of their differences, he and his sister have actually had some pretty deep discussions on issues of faith and belief. It's fascinating to listen to them.

[Onceuponatime]

I am editing to delete my initial post here. I thought the op had sincere questions, I was wrong. Bowing out.

 

Rats! I had been thinking that you sounded similar to me. Someone else who reads Karen Armstrong, Yay!

 

You really should try Marcus Borg also. I'm starting to sound like I belong to the church of Borg, lol. But really, he lays out the emerging paradigm of a new kind of Christianity in such a thoughtful and compelling manner.

[WishboneDawn]

But we are taught that the wisdom of the bible is timeless. There's even a hymn, Ancient Words, that I once thought was lovely. It's either a product of its time or it's timeless. It can't be both.

 

Why the heck not? Ifind that claim especially puzzling on a Classical homeschooling board.

 

Most great works are both. The Odyssey reflects the values of it's time but also contains themes that humanity has identified with through the ages. Ovid, Shakespeare, Austen - all of their time and timeless both.

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree: And how cool that your name means moon goddess!

 

 

 

Interesting. I remember hearing someone suggest that the Vatican has a gospel written by a woman (Mary Magdalen?) but that that and some of Jesus' teaching as related to women are being kept under lock and key because they are a threat to patriarchy.

 

There is a gospel of Mary but that doesn't mean it was written by a woman or even a Mary. From a secular or moderate-liberal Christian perspective the Gospels likely weren't written by any of the apostles but by later communities who attributed them to certain apostles. Mark was likely the earliest, still written after Paul's letters, and John was probably the latest at around 120 AD or so.

 

Generally these gospels aren't canonical not simply because they came about much later then those in the Bible and they were generally written by Gnostic communities which were "out there" in comparison to regular Christian communities. John is probably the most gnostic of the canonical gospels. Anyway, they didn't represent mainline Christian churches and it's no surprise their gospels aren't included.

 

Another reason for the church not being so hot on other gospels is that many were just not that good. They were a list of sayings attributed to Jesus or a rehash of previous gospels.

 

ETA: I'm not going on about this stuff because I'm trying to convince anyone one way or another...It's just that I have a geeky appreciation for the Bible and will babble on for hours. It's much the same with knitting.

Edited September 1, 2012 by WishboneDawn

[Desert Rat]

:iagree: I don't think the Christians involved in this thread realize how much some of us are holding back. I don't believe religion (any religion, not just Christianity) should get a pass, but I hold my tongue even IRL because the people involved are people I care about.

 

I couldn't have said this better. I find myself clenching my fists and curling my toes. I bite dang near through my tongue to be polite. See, it comes down to the fact that I respect others' beliefs. I support their right to believe what makes them happy and fulfilled. But, Christians have recruiting and "saving everyone" built into their instruction manual, The Bible. I hate being cornered. I've had to drag my kids off the playground because missionaries were wandering around bugging everyone. It's irritating.

[Lady Florida.]

Why can't it be both? Isn't that why we study the classics because they are timeless? Yet they are also products of their times. They teach us things about ourselves and humanity, including our faults and foibles.

 

 

Why the heck not? Ifind that claim especially puzzling on a Classical homeschooling board.

 

Most great works are both. The Odyssey reflects the values of it's time but also contains themes that humanity has identified with through the ages. Ovid, Shakespeare, Austen - all of their time and timeless both.

 

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant it in the sense that the bible is used - to tell us how to live. Do Christians really follow instructions that no longer apply to today's world? Do they think it's okay to stone people who work on the Sabbath? How do they treat their slaves? (And don't try to change "slaves" to "employees" when the bible clearly meant slaves.) There are plenty of things I can find in the bible that we would *never* think is okay today. Why is it okay to pick and choose which things are applicable to today's world and write off others as being from a different time?

 

Yes, it's timeless as literature. Christians don't treat it as literature. In that sense, it is either timeless or a product of its time.

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree: I don't think the Christians involved in this thread realize how much some of us are holding back. I don't believe religion (any religion, not just Christianity) should get a pass, but I hold my tongue even IRL because the people involved are people I care about.

 

I used to frequent an atheist board. I got an excellent dose of what you're holding back quite regularly. :D

 

It was a great place to hang out though. The occasional rabid something or other intent on telling everyone the error of their ways (atheist and religious) but generally just a bunch of fun people who liked to talk about logic, science and even the Bible (serious secular Biblical scholars at that board).

 

Anyhow, it was a great experience and now has me cringing and holding my tongue when many Christians attempt to rebut atheism or sell Atheists or their true brand of Christian belief.

[WishboneDawn]

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant it in the sense that the bible is used - to tell us how to live. Do Christians really follow instructions that no longer apply to today's world? Do they think it's okay to stone people who work on the Sabbath? How do they treat their slaves? (And don't try to change "slaves" to "employees" when the bible clearly meant slaves.) There are plenty of things I can find in the bible that we would *never* think is okay today. Why is it okay to pick and choose which things are applicable to today's world and write off others as being from a different time?

 

Yes, it's timeless as literature. Christians don't treat it as literature. In that sense, it is either timeless or a product of its time.

 

Ah. Well, some Christians do approach it in a sense similar to literature though. I went through a four year lay ministry course a few years back where the first two years were just reading the Bible and learning about different hypotheses (one I touched on in that post on the Gospels) and forms of criticism with which to evaluate different books and genres in the Bible. The attitude was that it was an ancient text that spanned several cultures, religions and many authors so to approach it all in one uniform fashion is a mistake. Bart Ehrman is a popular author and Biblical scholar that outlines a lot of what I learned it that course. The Bible as divinely inspired but written and copied by error-prone and biased humans.

 

You're right that many Christians don't read it that way and do read it as some sort of manual. I don't come from that tradition and I don't get it. I'm always puzzled by the opinion that "taking it all literally" is somehow a consistent choice for exactly the reasons you stated.

[kalanamak]

In the end, please know, the Christians who try so desperately to convert, they don't hate you. Goodness they don't even dislike you.

 

But they are making it look like they "know the Truth" when I don't. It is rude and intrusive and pompous to those of us who really do have a mind of our own. If a deity, an all-powerful entity, can't convince me, what makes Mary Jo Jones at my door with a pamphlet think she can? The hubris is shocking.

[WishboneDawn]

I couldn't have said this better. I find myself clenching my fists and curling my toes. I bite dang near through my tongue to be polite. See, it comes down to the fact that I respect others' beliefs. I support their right to believe what makes them happy and fulfilled. But, Christians have recruiting and "saving everyone" built into their instruction manual, The Bible. I hate being cornered. I've had to drag my kids off the playground because missionaries were wandering around bugging everyone. It's irritating.

 

There are actually whole denominations, like Eastern Orthodox, that are most definitely NOT evangelical and whose members would never corner you.

 

None of this is to say you're experience is wrong or the Christians you've described don't exist or aren't real Christians. They're a huge group right now. It's just that people tend not to know about the quiet, non-pushy ones because they're well...Quiet and not pushy. :)

[kalanamak]

I could have written this.

 

I do actually wonder if there is something to the "religion gene".

 

And I think it codes for something in the temporal lobe. :)

 

Really you should listen to this --about two babies switched at birth. I especially loved how the girl from the chipper and fun-loving family brought a ray of fun into the dour, nerdy family, even as they thought she wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree.

 

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/360/switched-at-birth

[sparrow]

And I think it codes for something in the temporal lobe. :)

 

Really you should listen to this --about two babies switched at birth. I especially loved how the girl from the chipper and fun-loving family brought a ray of fun into the dour, nerdy family, even as they thought she wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree.

 

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/360/switched-at-birth

 

I definitely will. I love This American Life.

 

Our house truly is an experiment in nature versus nurture. Both children were adopted as infants.