If You Were A Christian And Now You're Not...

[Avila]

You gots a handbook?! Which curricula covers that?

 

I did. I think it was the consolation prize for my goat not arriving.

[Impish]

Well as former dairy goat owner I'll tell you there's nothing snuggly about a buck in rut. GROSS! :D You can keep your gay goat porn, I'm not that type of homeschooler!

SNOB!

I'm very sorry if I offended anyone! I'm good at doing that, but not on purpose!

 

This was fun and funny, and you girls are a riot! I'm taking your advice and will be open minded! I could learn a few things~that's for sure!

 

BTW~I type quick and don't always go back and reread, to check for errors! So 4give the typos~as I'm. Multi tasking!!!

There's no *if* involved. You've been informed, repeatedly, that you have greviously offended ppl. Over and over again.

 

Back to the goats. More fun, better convo.

[Avila]

Sadly these threads often go this way. And then people wonder why some who were Christians are now not Christians. This is of course not the only factor, but it doesn't help. And I don't believe that most Christians feel this way, but there are enough of the mean narrow minded ones out there to ruin one's day.

 

I hope the jokes helped a little.

 

I am sorry you all could not have a serious conversation. It makes me a little scared for the future of classical homeschooling.

 

There are plenty of Christians who are not of that ilk, but then I guess they would not consider us Christians either.

 

It makes me really sad people use religion as a hammer.

[Mom in High Heels]

I'm very sorry if I offended anyone! I'm good at doing that, but not on purpose!

 

This was fun and funny, and you girls are a riot! I'm taking your advice and will be open minded! I could learn a few things~that's for sure!

 

BTW~I type quick and don't always go back and reread, to check for errors! So 4give the typos~as I'm. Multi tasking!!!

 

 

Well your beliefs couldn't be to strongly founded if a few comments on a thread were able to turn them so easily.

I do not 4give for using numbers as a shortcut in a word. It's gr8ing and hurts my eyes.

[Lily_Grace]

I'm very sorry if I offended anyone! I'm good at doing that, but not on purpose!

 

This was fun and funny, and you girls are a riot! I'm taking your advice and will be open minded! I could learn a few things~that's for sure!

 

BTW~I type quick and don't always go back and reread, to check for errors! So 4give the typos~as I'm. Multi tasking!!!

 

This is not an apology. Apologies are not conditional.

 

Ms. Dinsmore, many of us type quickly. In order to set the example to our children that writing is for communication, we strive to check that we are easily understood.

 

I would suggest you do the same.

[newlifemom]

Yeah and if that doesn't scream teenager, I don't know what does.

 

See now, I have WendyK on my side. That means I must be right. :P

[Wheres Toto]

Which would make you the .....?

 

:smilielol5::smilielol5:

 

So you have no idea what goes on in the world? You don't know about the martians landing in Minnesota or that they found out the Loch Ness monster is really a troll? Look what you're missing!

 

OMG, we promote tolerance? What evil, ugly people we are! We should all be flogged.

 

:lol::lol:

[Mom in High Heels]

See now, I have WendyK on my side. That means I must be right. :P

 

 

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

James Bond needs to come home from Afghanistan. I clearly need another adult to talk to.

[Rivka]

I hope the jokes helped a little.

 

I am sorry you all could not have a serious conversation. It makes me a little scared for the future of classical homeschooling.

 

Speaking only for myself: no, the jokes don't help. They're not mean-spirited like the trolling was, but they make it equally hard for a group of people who are significantly in the minority on this board to have the conversation they wanted to have.

[justLisa]

Sorry I was writing my list to Santa Claus. What'd I miss?

[Pawz4me]

Speaking only for myself: no, the jokes don't help. They're not mean-spirited like the trolling was, but they make it equally hard for a group of people who are significantly in the minority on this board to have the conversation they wanted to have.

 

IMO it wasn't the "troll" who really ruined this thread, but the people who wouldn't just ignore it. And that is a total shame, because IMO we had a very insightful and informative discussion going on.

[Avila]

Speaking only for myself: no, the jokes don't help. They're not mean-spirited like the trolling was, but they make it equally hard for a group of people who are significantly in the minority on this board to have the conversation they wanted to have.

 

Maybe there needs to be a Social Group for this. That would keep whatever and whomever you want out of the conversation.

 

Obviously I have offended you, so I am going to bow out now.

[justLisa]

Jerry Springer's number, goats, Impish is really a man, our troll types like a teenager and seems pretty versed in internet abbreviations for someone who doesn't go many places on the computer, someone wants to throw up in their crock pot, and....uhhhh I deal with things by cracking jokes.

 

I hope that sums it up.

 

Oh geez. I laugh when things go wrong. I don't do well with stress. I just start laughing and thinking of funny things.

[newlifemom]

Sorry Rivka and Pawsforme [sp?] I'll be quiet now and I promise to stay out of any other threads of this nature. I'll just read and learn.

[Wheres Toto]

I enjoyed the real discussion and the jokes in very different ways.

 

Even with the degeneration of the thread, I was still able to get a lot out of knowing I'm not alone in my experiences.

[SitLongTalkMuch]

I enjoyed the real discussion and the jokes in very different ways.

 

Even with the degeneration of the thread, I was still able to get a lot out of knowing I'm not alone in my experiences.

 

This.

[SitLongTalkMuch]

Whew...someone who explained it how I thought it. I couldn't find the right words.

 

I felt like I was goofing off with friends. But at the same time talking about something serious. I don't know that I exactly feel sorry about that.

 

And there is a huge difference between joking around and going for the jugular.

 

:iagree:

[LisaMarie6]

I had figured what 2 mamas and 3 babies was saying was maybe dad died, or not in picture,,,,so NO it was not meat to be provoking.

 

I didn't call Audry a witch. SHE says she's a witch, so I simply asked about it. I really am clueless to these lifestyles.

 

It takes a man and woman to make a baby~and so 2mamas obviously had a man at some point~or one of them did. Its just odd and I didn't really think it was 2 women in a relationship. Or they adopted.

 

This is the FIRST time I've heard of a gay couple homeschooling. You asked me about teaching my kids about current events, etc,,,how will 2 women be ale to teach about God and His creation of 1 man and 1 woman, to reproduce. It wasn't Adam and Steve, it was Adam and Eve (woman).

 

2 women, one obviously acting as a man, training and teaching children, how weird is that!? Talk about having some confused kids~later adults.

 

I'm sorry, but that is just WRONG.

 

Ok, my dh is off work today and took the kids to the zoo, and I've spent WAY too much time on here, so I'm off to better things.

 

You will all enjoy, as some of you already have, bashing and name calling. it really shows your stupidity and reality that not everyone wo homeschools, should be homeschooling!

 

Ouch, I am a follower of Christ and your comments here are quite offensive to me. Jesus' words to his followers were to love God and love others. Your words hold no love.

 

As to the original topic. I want to say thank you to all who have shared. I have been moving away from the religion that I was raised in, but I am still a follower of Christ, what I have read today helps me to process what I do believe.

 

I also very much enjoy the diversity of these boards.

[Firefly]

I didn't mind the humor-- you guys crack me up! I do wish we'd been able to have more discussion, but I'm glad just to know I'm not as alone here as I thought. Ah well. Off to trim my whiskers and wax up the broomstick! ;)

[justLisa]

I didn't mind the humor-- you guys crack me up! I do wish we'd been able to have more discussion, but I'm glad just to know I'm not as alone here as I thought. Ah well. Off to trim my whiskers and wax up the broomstick! ;)

 

Don't worry. I wrote my letter to Santa. I wished for a giant metal cage. And you know, Santa finds EVERYONE. He is magical.

[BlsdMama]

 

OP: To answer your question-- it was the Bible. I was a regular church-goer as a child (protestant), went to Catholic school etc. I considered myself Christian. Then, as a young adult, I wanted to learn more about my faith so I did something I hadn't before-- I read the Bible, cover to cover. I was shocked, and felt like what the pastors and priests had served up to me all those years was "Christianity-lite" and a false representation of the god described in the Bible. The kind, loving "God" I'd been familiar with all my life did not exist in that book. Sure there were parts that were inspiring, but many more that I just couldn't reconcile. I had to decide: either it is all real, and I have to live my life according this book, or it's all false. It didn't feel right to pick and choose what I liked about it and scrap the rest. So ultimately I couldn't believe in a god like the one described in the Bible, and I left Christianity. Unlike Audrey though, I do still believe in a "higher power" of sorts; one that jibes with my sense of what life is all about.

 

I have no beef with Christians in general. Living where I do I don't encounter a lot of evangelical or fundamentalist types. Most of the intolerance I've come across has been on this board (not personally). :)

 

Shockingly enough, as a fundamentalist Christian, this might be the most clearly thought and explained, rational answer ever.

 

Flat out?

 

People become Christians because they hear and they choose to believe.

 

People who were Christians decide to choose NOT to believe and hence, leave Christianity behind.

 

That's contradictory b/c I think anyone who "fully and completely" understood and believed in their own mind wouldn't walk away.

 

Sorry, I have to disagree. That's not scriptural.

 

 

Matthew 13

 

New International Version (NIV)

 

The Parable of the Sower

 

13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

 

 

There are believers who will leave the faith. Their faith sprang up quickly but it was shallow. Their faith was choked by the hardness of this life and discouragement. Their faith was gobbled up by a predator. Indeed, those who once believed and understood and embraced CAN choose to walk away. It may be unsettling for us to believe that someone can just walk away and we wonder, "Why?" But, yes they have free will - both to choose to believe and to choose not to believe. Thus the reason it is called faith.

Edited August 31, 2012 by BlsdMama

[CatholicMom]

I have noticed that the vast majority of responses don't talk about how they came to the understanding that Christianity was not true for x, y, z, reasons. We can lament hypocrites in all religions, ideologies, and the PTA for that matter, but I just wanted to point out that the presence of hypocrites has nothing at all to do with whether or not a religion is true. It is essential to understand that. It is frustrating and sad that people often don't think clearly enough to consider the validity of a religion based on the claims IT makes, not the faithfulness of so-called members. In terms of Christianity, we can't forget that Jesus predicted that there would be wolves in with the sheep (there already were in *his* day, let alone ours! -Judas, anyone?). Christianity has become so huge there are bound to be millions of hypocrites. In fact, Jesus said there would be, so we should not be surprised, and most of all we should not base *our faith* and what we believe to be *true* on what other people do or say! If you turn from the Christian faith it should be for intellectual reasons... not because you found a "new idea" or because another idea made you "feel better" or because a lot of Christians you met weren't what they were cracked up to be. Nobody who leaves for these reasons were there because they thought it was *true* and that's the real question, isn't it?

 

I don't doubt that you feel actual sympathy, but, you see... this phrase "True Christianity" and the use of it is part of the problem for many people. So many different sects and individual Christians claim to know what "True Christianity" is, yet none of them can agree on hardly anything at all.

 

If there was such a thing as True Christianity and it really were this all-powerful inspirational entity, then there would be no such thing as denominations in the Christian faith. There would just be Christians and nothing else.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Christianity being an "all-powerful inspirational entity." That's not a claim that Jesus makes. Maybe you are confusing Christianity with God himself, who is all-powerful (?).

 

Anyway, you say "if there was such a thing as True Christianity [...] then there would be no such thing as denominations in the Christian faith." Let's stop and think... why does this follow? If there are 500 people who all claim to own a brown dog and they all disagree amongst themselves who really owns a brown dog, should we then announce: "Brown dogs don't exist anyway! If a brown dog really did exist, then you all wouldn't be arguing about who owns a brown dog and who doesn't!" Of course not :). If you really wanted to know The Truth of the brown dog mystery, you would go to each person's house with a clipboard and ask to see their dog. Since disagreement exists, we shouldn't be surprised when, sure enough, for some reason some people did NOT own a brown dog, and even when you find white, black, and spotted dogs! (Of course these findings tell us nothing about motives: whether they lied for gain, are senile, etc, etc. Mostly likely the reason is different for different people.) Point being, just because there is disagreement on something does in no way imply that the thing doesn't exist.

 

I grant that all the denominations is mega confusing. It is also clearly true that ALL of their claims are not true because we know by pure logic that a bunch of claims that contradict each other cannot be true at the same time. So if one denomination believes in the continuation of speaking in tongues, and another denomination thinks tongues have ceased, one thing we DO know is that they are both not correct. One of them is wrong. And since there are thousands of these issues, it gets incredibly complicated very quickly.

 

A good way to investigate Christianity's truth claims is to look at the claims that almost no Christians disagree with: God exists (rule out atheism), God has revealed himself (scriptures & Jesus), Jesus is the Son of God like he said, Jesus rose from the dead. These are the core truths that you can investigate with some reasonable hope of finding the answer if you are truly seeking with an open mind.:)

 

ReasonableFaith.org is a great site by William Lane Craig, arguably Christianity's best apologist. He is an awesome debater and is also a really nice guy. He defends the very things I mentioned above.

 

I hope someone who reads this will reconsider leaving Christianity for reasons that have nothing to do with the Truth.

[FairyMom]

I gave up Christianity when I went to university and took 3 religion classes. The mystic/magical aspect of the faith I knew was replaced with the societal norms the new testament was responding to. I know the exact time I gave up believing, and I cried that night because I knew what I was losing. There has never been a. single. moment. in the past 25 years when I have doubted my decision.

 

Until a few years ago when he retired, my father was the national head of one of the largest denominations in America so my parents certainty did their part to teach us their faith. Now, two of us are atheist, one is agnostic, and one is a minister in the same denomination. So go figure.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I would love to hear more about the specifics. Thank you.

[Mom in High Heels]

I have noticed that the vast majority of responses don't talk about how they came to the understanding that Christianity was not true for x, y, z, reasons.

 

Actually I think in the beginning there were quite a few responses that stated reasons for leaving Christianity that had nothing to do with Christians themselves. There are some Christians that turn me off, but they aren't the reason I don't believe. I don't believe because I simply can't. There are too many contradictions, too many things that ring false for me and too many things that I simply dislike. I don't believe Jesus was the son of an almighty deity and born of a virgin. I don't. I believe he was a real person who had a good, peaceful, loving message, but that's all. I don't believe he was divine.

[DB in NJ]

What I can't understand is women on this board opening themselves up for the abuse they knew they were going to get when they posted.

 

An incredible sacrifice I suppose, throwing oneself under the bus to be honest and speak what they believe.

 

I understand not believing.

 

What I don't understand is fully believing and walking away because HUMANS disappointed you? If Christ was RIGHT in your mind, how could you let the mistakes made by very fallible Christian believers sway you from what you believed was right? Either you never believed or you took your eyes off Christ and put your expectations in people, no? :(

 

People will always let you down. They are fallible. They get confused, they get lost, they choose wrong.

 

I'm not a Christian follower. I am a Christ follower. If I look all around I can find 1,000,000 people to let me down. Myself included in that tally. Thank God my faith doesn't depend on the actions of humans. I would be so heartbroken and disappointed.

 

:iagree:

[Dory]

What I can't understand is women on this board opening themselves up for the abuse they knew they were going to get when they posted.

 

An incredible sacrifice I suppose, throwing oneself under the bus to be honest and speak what they believe.

 

I understand not believing.

 

What I don't understand is fully believing and walking away because HUMANS disappointed you? If Christ was RIGHT in your mind, how could you let the mistakes made by very fallible Christian believers sway you from what you believed was right? Either you never believed or you took your eyes off Christ and put your expectations in people, no? :(

 

People will always let you down. They are fallible. They get confused, they get lost, they choose wrong.

 

I'm not a Christian follower. I am a Christ follower. If I look all around I can find 1,000,000 people to let me down. Myself included in that tally. Thank God my faith doesn't depend on the actions of humans. I would be so heartbroken and disappointed.

 

:iagree: and this is the only reason that I have not completely walked away from God. I hate Him right about now, but I'm not done thinking about it all. So far though, I feel that the God I have seen in the world around me during my life, is not the the God that I read about in scripture and that's confusing. Also, the God that my parents taught me about seems very disjointed and fickle.

[Wheres Toto]

Actually I think in the beginning there were quite a few responses that stated reasons for leaving Christianity that had nothing to do with Christians themselves. There are some Christians that turn me off, but they aren't the reason I don't believe. I don't believe because I simply can't. There are too many contradictions, too many things that ring false for me and too many things that I simply dislike. I don't believe Jesus was the son of an almighty deity and born of a virgin. I don't. I believe he was a real person who had a good, peaceful, loving message, but that's all. I don't believe he was divine.

 

:iagree: The Christians I knew were very live-and-let-live, laid back people. United Methodist is an openly liberal denomination. It's just that as I learned more, and realized I was really supposed to believe this stuff, I couldn't do it.

[Onceuponatime]

A good way to investigate Christianity's truth claims is to look at the claims that almost no Christians disagree with: God exists (rule out atheism), God has revealed himself (scriptures & Jesus), Jesus is the Son of God like he said, Jesus rose from the dead. These are the core truths that you can investigate with some reasonable hope of finding the answer if you are truly seeking with an open mind.:)

 

.

 

See, this is a problem, there are actually a great many Christians who disagree with these statements you call truths. They might say:

 

God exists- yes that is a given, but often in a completely different way of thinking about God. He is the essence of everything that is, existence itself, and yet something more.

 

God has revealed himself in scripture- only to the extent that humans managed to uncover universal truth in all the sacred scriptures of the world.

 

God has revealed himself in Jesus- because he accepted and taught the proposition that we are all children of God and all equally worthy of care and acceptance, and he showed us a way that was different than the way of opression and greed.

 

Jesus is the son of God, as we are all children of God.

 

Jesus is resurrected in our thoughts and by our actions imitating him.

 

Many Christians believe truths are found in the Bible, but often in the way all great literature holds truths for us to ponder.

 

This is a form of Christianity that is emerging in the world today. This emerging Christianity is supported by many scholars and theologians.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Onceuponatime

[Parker Martin]

I'll second the endorsement of ReasonalFaith.org.

 

There is supporting scientific (and no, I don't mean Answers in Genesis type "scientific") evidence for belief. Being a Christian does not require one to turn off reason or disregard evidence. There are pastors that teach that way, but that's because they don't know any better. Education about the logic behind the Christian faith has been lacking for too long; that's why you encounter so many fideists these days. But their way is not the only one.

 

I have noticed that the vast majority of responses don't talk about how they came to the understanding that Christianity was not true for x, y, z, reasons. We can lament hypocrites in all religions, ideologies, and the PTA for that matter, but I just wanted to point out that the presence of hypocrites has nothing at all to do with whether or not a religion is true. It is essential to understand that. It is frustrating and sad that people often don't think clearly enough to consider the validity of a religion based on the claims IT makes, not the faithfulness of so-called members. In terms of Christianity, we can't forget that Jesus predicted that there would be wolves in with the sheep (there already were in *his* day, let alone ours! -Judas, anyone?). Christianity has become so huge there are bound to be millions of hypocrites. In fact, Jesus said there would be, so we should not be surprised, and most of all we should not base *our faith* and what we believe to be *true* on what other people do or say! If you turn from the Christian faith it should be for intellectual reasons... not because you found a "new idea" or because another idea made you "feel better" or because a lot of Christians you met weren't what they were cracked up to be. Nobody who leaves for these reasons were there because they thought it was *true* and that's the real question, isn't it?

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Christianity being an "all-powerful inspirational entity." That's not a claim that Jesus makes. Maybe you are confusing Christianity with God himself, who is all-powerful (?).

 

Anyway, you say "if there was such a thing as True Christianity [...] then there would be no such thing as denominations in the Christian faith." Let's stop and think... why does this follow? If there are 500 people who all claim to own a brown dog and they all disagree amongst themselves who really owns a brown dog, should we then announce: "Brown dogs don't exist anyway! If a brown dog really did exist, then you all wouldn't be arguing about who owns a brown dog and who doesn't!" Of course not :). If you really wanted to know The Truth of the brown dog mystery, you would go to each person's house with a clipboard and ask to see their dog. Since disagreement exists, we shouldn't be surprised when, sure enough, for some reason some people did NOT own a brown dog, and even when you find white, black, and spotted dogs! (Of course these findings tell us nothing about motives: whether they lied for gain, are senile, etc, etc. Mostly likely the reason is different for different people.) Point being, just because there is disagreement on something does in no way imply that the thing doesn't exist.

 

I grant that all the denominations is mega confusing. It is also clearly true that ALL of their claims are not true because we know by pure logic that a bunch of claims that contradict each other cannot be true at the same time. So if one denomination believes in the continuation of speaking in tongues, and another denomination thinks tongues have ceased, one thing we DO know is that they are both not correct. One of them is wrong. And since there are thousands of these issues, it gets incredibly complicated very quickly.

 

A good way to investigate Christianity's truth claims is to look at the claims that almost no Christians disagree with: God exists (rule out atheism), God has revealed himself (scriptures & Jesus), Jesus is the Son of God like he said, Jesus rose from the dead. These are the core truths that you can investigate with some reasonable hope of finding the answer if you are truly seeking with an open mind.:)

 

ReasonableFaith.org is a great site by William Lane Craig, arguably Christianity's best apologist. He is an awesome debater and is also a really nice guy. He defends the very things I mentioned above.

 

I hope someone who reads this will reconsider leaving Christianity for reasons that have nothing to do with the Truth.

 

:iagree:

[Pegasus]

I'm not sure I'm the target responder for this thread. I was told growing up that we were Christian but we didn't pray, go to church, or read the bible. I mostly remember just being confused about the whole thing. By young adulthood, I was an atheist, without ever having a single event to move me in that direction. I don't believe in god in the exact same way I don't believe in Zeus or Ra. Each are stories invented by man. Truthfully, I'm flabbergasted that there are so many believers.

 

As an aside, quoting from scripture to convince an unbeliever of "the truth" is a useless effort.

[Wheres Toto]

See, this is a problem, there are actually a great many Christians who disagree with these statements you call truths. They might say:

 

God exists- yes that is a given, but often in a completely different way of thinking about God. He is the essence of everything that is, existence itself, and yet something more.

 

God has revealed himself in scripture- only to the extent that humans managed to uncover universal truth in all the sacred scriptures of the world.

 

God has revealed himself in Jesus- because he accepted and taught the proposition that we are all children of God and all equally worthy of care and acceptance, and he showed us a way that was different than the way of opression and greed.

 

Jesus is the son of God, as we are all children of God.

 

Jesus is resurrected in our thoughts and by our actions imitating him.

 

Many Christians believe truths are found in the Bible, but often in the way all great literature holds truths for us to ponder.

 

This is a form of Christianity that is emerging in the world today. This emerging Christianity is supported by many scholars and theologians.

 

Okay, this is interesting to me. What denominations believe this way? I thought the divine nature of Jesus was "required" to be Christian? The above are beliefs I would like to learn more about.

[CatholicMom]

Actually I think in the beginning there were quite a few responses that stated reasons for leaving Christianity that had nothing to do with Christians themselves. There are some Christians that turn me off, but they aren't the reason I don't believe. I don't believe because I simply can't. There are too many contradictions, too many things that ring false for me and too many things that I simply dislike. I don't believe Jesus was the son of an almighty deity and born of a virgin. I don't. I believe he was a real person who had a good, peaceful, loving message, but that's all. I don't believe he was divine.

 

I'm not saying it's just the hypocrite issue that we have to watch out for, though that was a repetitive one. But even the ones that didn't state hypocrites in their top reasons for leaving Christianity, it was often things equally meaningless (in terms of searching for the truth) like feeling unwelcome, things they didn't like, other ideas they found more appealing, etc. All these things are missing the point.

 

I'm not saying this is what you're doing for sure because I don't know, but I wonder if you have thought a lot about these things and have solid reasons for what you do believe? Red flags to me are when you say certain things "ring false" to you, and there are things you "simply dislike." Sometimes even when people know something to be true, they choose not to live like it was so (irrationally, I'd say). But if you really want to know and believe what is true, at the end of the day, what does what you dislike have to do with it? There are a lot of things about Christianity to not like: people making fun of you, family strife, people thinking you're a bigot, principles that you can't bend even when it would be easier to do so... for the early Christians and still plenty today in place like Sudan... things to not like include being tortured, getting your kids taken away, being oppressed. And if we're talking about thing you have to believe... again, what does liking or not liking it have to do with the truth of it? The reason it's a big deal to get this stuff straight is because if Christianity IS true and you turned away because you simply didn't like something you had to do or believe... there are some pretty serious consequences (and regrets) to be had.

 

Same thing with phrases like "ring false." I hear a lot of this so it's not just you. But I scratch my head because it portrays the idea that you don't have any legitimate, well thought out reasons for what you think is false, and you know it. That my sound harsh, but that's not my intention. I'm just trying to point out that we cannot trust what "rings false" or "rings true" for that matter. People make mistakes! Especially when you aren't really investigating, searching, reading. I am continually amazed at what gigantic decisions people make about religion, eternal truth, their souls, etc, based on "what rings true to them" or what they "thought" without ever reading, thinking, struggling with the claims and implications.

 

We need to remember that this isn't deciding which cereal to eat in the morning. It's investigating the truth. It's probably not a wise path to just decide what The Truth is based on what you like, don't like, or "rings false" or "rings true." People make mistakes about everything. All the more care needs to be taken when you are considering something like whether Jesus is the Son of God. If you're wrong, there are huge stakes for yourself, your family, your children.

[FairyMom]

I'll second the endorsement of ReasonalFaith.org.

 

There is supporting scientific (and no, I don't mean Answers in Genesis type "scientific") evidence for belief. Being a Christian does not require one to turn off reason or disregard evidence. There are pastors that teach that way, but that's because they don't know any better. Education about the logic behind the Christian faith has been lacking for too long; that's why you encounter so many fideists these days. But their way is not the only one.

 

 

Why are you still trying to convert? Not the point of this thread.

 

I have noticed that the vast majority of responses don't talk about how they came to the understanding that Christianity was not true for x, y, z, reasons. We can lament hypocrites in all religions, ideologies, and the PTA for that matter, but I just wanted to point out that the presence of hypocrites has nothing at all to do with whether or not a religion is true. It is essential to understand that. It is frustrating and sad that people often don't think clearly enough to consider the validity of a religion based on the claims IT makes, not the faithfulness of so-called members. In terms of Christianity, we can't forget that Jesus predicted that there would be wolves in with the sheep (there already were in *his* day, let alone ours! -Judas, anyone?). Christianity has become so huge there are bound to be millions of hypocrites. In fact, Jesus said there would be, so we should not be surprised, and most of all we should not base *our faith* and what we believe to be *true* on what other people do or say! If you turn from the Christian faith it should be for intellectual reasons... not because you found a "new idea" or because another idea made you "feel better" or because a lot of Christians you met weren't what they were cracked up to be. Nobody who leaves for these reasons were there because they thought it was *true* and that's the real question, isn't it?

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Christianity being an "all-powerful inspirational entity." That's not a claim that Jesus makes. Maybe you are confusing Christianity with God himself, who is all-powerful (?).

 

Anyway, you say "if there was such a thing as True Christianity [...] then there would be no such thing as denominations in the Christian faith." Let's stop and think... why does this follow? If there are 500 people who all claim to own a brown dog and they all disagree amongst themselves who really owns a brown dog, should we then announce: "Brown dogs don't exist anyway! If a brown dog really did exist, then you all wouldn't be arguing about who owns a brown dog and who doesn't!" Of course not :). If you really wanted to know The Truth of the brown dog mystery, you would go to each person's house with a clipboard and ask to see their dog. Since disagreement exists, we shouldn't be surprised when, sure enough, for some reason some people did NOT own a brown dog, and even when you find white, black, and spotted dogs! (Of course these findings tell us nothing about motives: whether they lied for gain, are senile, etc, etc. Mostly likely the reason is different for different people.) Point being, just because there is disagreement on something does in no way imply that the thing doesn't exist.

 

I grant that all the denominations is mega confusing. It is also clearly true that ALL of their claims are not true because we know by pure logic that a bunch of claims that contradict each other cannot be true at the same time. So if one denomination believes in the continuation of speaking in tongues, and another denomination thinks tongues have ceased, one thing we DO know is that they are both not correct. One of them is wrong. And since there are thousands of these issues, it gets incredibly complicated very quickly.

 

A good way to investigate Christianity's truth claims is to look at the claims that almost no Christians disagree with: God exists (rule out atheism), God has revealed himself (scriptures & Jesus), Jesus is the Son of God like he said, Jesus rose from the dead. These are the core truths that you can investigate with some reasonable hope of finding the answer if you are truly seeking with an open mind.:)

 

ReasonableFaith.org is a great site by William Lane Craig, arguably Christianity's best apologist. He is an awesome debater and is also a really nice guy. He defends the very things I mentioned above.

 

I hope someone who reads this will reconsider leaving Christianity for reasons that have nothing to do with the Truth.

 

Really? You just proved why so many people don't trust christians. It's also offensive and condescending. :glare: It's a myth to me, so "people" didn't affect my decision.

[SKL]

I was raised in a Christian household (went to church, taught sunday school, etc.) but I never felt that wonderful, transcendent feeling that other people did...so I went seeking for it in other religions as a young adult. I very much liked the idea of faith, but I couldn't shake the feeling that the most I ever felt in any religious ceremony was a mild glow of camaraderie. I secretly thought perhaps there was something wrong with me, that I tried and didn't seem to be able to connect with God (or whatever other name I could it).

 

For a while I just sort of drifted away from religion, in an agnostic kind of way. Then, as I began serious scholarship for the first time in my life--filling in all the gaps of my public school education--I began to be able to put religion into a truly historical context, and I began to understand how the natural world works from a scientific perspective. Before, where I thought, "There is so much we don't understand! There HAS to be a deity to make everything do it's thing!" now I learned just how this big universe works and what principles keep it in place. Studying neuroscience and evolutionary psychology also played a role on my journey. After a long time of fearing the stigma associated with the word, I finally accepted that I was an atheist.

 

My story is similar, except for the last sentence. As a kid, I always struggled with "faith." If I wasn't sure, how could I find that faith that seemed to be required for eternal life? Yet I felt that since Christianity was such a dominant religion (in my world view at the time), all those people couldn't be wrong.

 

As a teen, I used to "talk to God" all the time. This was never forced on me; I really felt that I had a relationship with God, and that he was guiding me in my tough decisions. Then one day when I was 16, I had a mini-trauma and felt lost. I suddenly felt God wasn't listening after all. I did the "open the bible and read a random verse" a few times and kept coming up more doubtful than before. (Looking back, it was probably PMS :lol:, but at the time I was very upset.) I couldn't fall back on the old "all those people couldn't be wrong" any more, because now I understood that the majority of humans were not Christians and never had been.

 

So I wondered and worried for a long time. I didn't pray because it felt like nothing. For years this continued. I started to see "God" as more of a collective of all the good in man.

 

I think the next turning point was when I met a foreign friend from a "heathen" religion. She very much believed in God. Not the Christian idea of God, but a more universal God. I started being more open-minded and exploring different religions (including Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and others). I decided that God is in all of us, and humans figure out all kinds of silly ways to block and distort his power and message. This is pretty much what I now believe and what I teach my kids. (My kids do go to a Lutheran school, where perhaps the cycle will start all over again in the younger generation . . . . )

 

Where I live, I don't observe the "obnoxious Christian" stuff some have mentioned in this thread. I mean yeah, when I attend a Sunday School class, there is a bit of "we're better" sometimes, but it's not encountered up and down the street. People are serious and well-meaning about their religions. And most people are Christians, but don't really discuss it.

 

BTW, when I say "Christian," I mean believing in the diety of Christ. I read on the Internet where people say "we are Christian" as if to set themselves apart from other believers in Christ. I gather the word "Christian" means different things to different people.

[FairyMom]

I'm not saying it's just the hypocrite issue that we have to watch out for, though that was a repetitive one. But even the ones that didn't state hypocrites in their top reasons for leaving Christianity, it was often things equally meaningless (in terms of searching for the truth) like feeling unwelcome, things they didn't like, other ideas they found more appealing, etc. All these things are missing the point.

 

I'm not saying this is what you're doing for sure because I don't know, but I wonder if you have thought a lot about these things and have solid reasons for what you do believe? Red flags to me are when you say certain things "ring false" to you, and there are things you "simply dislike." Sometimes even when people know something to be true, they choose not to live like it was so (irrationally, I'd say). But if you really want to know and believe what is true, at the end of the day, what does what you dislike have to do with it? There are a lot of things about Christianity to not like: people making fun of you, family strife, people thinking you're a bigot, principles that you can't bend even when it would be easier to do so... for the early Christians and still plenty today in place like Sudan... things to not like include being tortured, getting your kids taken away, being oppressed. And if we're talking about thing you have to believe... again, what does liking or not liking it have to do with the truth of it? The reason it's a big deal to get this stuff straight is because if Christianity IS true and you turned away because you simply didn't like something you had to do or believe... there are some pretty serious consequences (and regrets) to be had.

 

Same thing with phrases like "ring false." I hear a lot of this so it's not just you. But I scratch my head because it portrays the idea that you don't have any legitimate, well thought out reasons for what you think is false, and you know it. That my sound harsh, but that's not my intention. I'm just trying to point out that we cannot trust what "rings false" or "rings true" for that matter. People make mistakes! Especially when you aren't really investigating, searching, reading. I am continually amazed at what gigantic decisions people make about religion, eternal truth, their souls, etc, based on "what rings true to them" or what they "thought" without ever reading, thinking, struggling with the claims and implications.

 

We need to remember that this isn't deciding which cereal to eat in the morning. It's investigating the truth. It's probably not a wise path to just decide what The Truth is based on what you like, don't like, or "rings false" or "rings true." People make mistakes about everything. All the more care needs to be taken when you are considering something like whether Jesus is the Son of God. If you're wrong, there are huge stakes for yourself, your family, your children.

 

Not my reason, for so many others, not their reasons also. I don't believe in your stakes. Not the point of the thread either. :glare:

 

So sorry, Drexel!!!

[FairyMom]

I miss the jokes. :(

[CatholicMom]

I'm trying not to assume anything by what you are saying, but comments like these are mildly insulting to me. You seem to assume that people haven't given it all that much thought. Or that we are so shallow in our thinking that we aren't looking at anything, but what's wrong with people.

 

I don't know about you, of course, but I definitely think it is true for a lot of people. Response after response talked about reasons they left Christianity which had nothing to do with Christianity itself. That was my point and I definitely think it's a big issue... an epidemic, really.

[Carrie12345]

I miss the jokes. :(

 

No kidding. A non-Christian who would dare to ask "How can you believe that carp?" would get suspended. But "You're on the path to hell" from a Christian (in a non-Christian thread, no less) is just peachy keen. @@

[Kathryn]

The way I see it, if God was small enough to be defined by a single book, he would have come on down and introduced himself in person. I figure all the world's religious texts are just glimpses into something far too complex and mysterious to be defined by human language.

 

I'm not the target audience for this thread, as I went from atheist, to agnostic theist, to Christian. But, this quote from Mergath is still my view. There was no human force that caused me to believe. In fact, if anything, I'd say that the actions of Christians impeded me. I still don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant and literal word of God. I don't believe that Hell is a place to which bad people are sent. I believe God wants all people eventually reconciled to Him, even if that happens after death. And I'm not certain at all that Christianity is the only path to God, although it is now mine. I believe simply because one day it just happened. I don't care one bit what other people believe as they are on their own journeys.

[FairyMom]

No kidding. A non-Christian who would dare to ask "How can you believe that carp?" would get suspended. But "You're on the path to hell" from a Christian (in a non-Christian thread, no less) is just peachy keen. @@

 

:iagree: Thanks, Carrie.

[SailorMom]

I don't know about you, of course, but I definitely think it is true for a lot of people. Response after response talked about reasons they left Christianity which had nothing to do with Christianity itself. That was my point and I definitely think it's a big issue... an epidemic, really.

 

 

Well - mine did. I mean - sure - the non-Christian acting Christians didn't help any :) But - it was the theology that I saw as illogical; it also seemed as mythological as all other religions now and all throughout human history. I know that may sound offensive - but - I'm saying I don't think Christianity is true - so obviously I'm going to think it's a kind of mythology.... I think in the West, Christianity doesn't seem like those other religions because we're just used to it culturally.

Really - reading the history of Christianity itself, and learning about the religions that preceded it, was rather eye-opening as well.

[FairyMom]

I don't know about you, of course, but I definitely think it is true for a lot of people. Response after response talked about reasons they left Christianity which had nothing to do with Christianity itself. That was my point and I definitely think it's a big issue... an epidemic, really.

 

You obviously didn't read all the responses, or just didn't read them completely and made assumptions. Most christians I have met are judgmental, sadly, although they are commanded specifically not to. That is still not the reason the vast majority of us left christianity. I could no longer believe a myth, fairy tale, story, what ever you want to call it. If that offends you, you are in the wrong thread.

[FairyMom]

Well - mine did. I mean - sure - the non-Christian acting Christians didn't help any :) But - it was the theology that I saw as illogical; it also seemed as mythological as all other religions now and all throughout human history. I know that may sound offensive - but - I'm saying I don't think Christianity is true - so obviously I'm going to think it's a kind of mythology.... I think in the West, Christianity doesn't seem like those other religions because we're just used to it culturally.

Really - reading the history of Christianity itself, and learning about the religions that preceded it, was rather eye-opening as well.

 

:iagree: What I was trying to say only you said it much better. :)

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Well - mine did. I mean - sure - the non-Christian acting Christians didn't help any :) But - it was the theology that I saw as illogical; it also seemed as mythological as all other religions now and all throughout human history. I know that may sound offensive - but - I'm saying I don't think Christianity is true - so obviously I'm going to think it's a kind of mythology.... I think in the West, Christianity doesn't seem like those other religions because we're just used to it culturally.

Really - reading the history of Christianity itself, and learning about the religions that preceded it, was rather eye-opening as well.

 

Same here. I always doubted my childhood faith, even before I was exposed to hypocrites and religious zealots that turned me off to church. My reasons for not being a Christian are not because of Christians, but because I just don't believe that anyone knows the "right" answer to god or salvation.

[suzybluecheese]

I don't know about you, of course, but I definitely think it is true for a lot of people. Response after response talked about reasons they left Christianity which had nothing to do with Christianity itself. That was my point and I definitely think it's a big issue... an epidemic, really.

 

Maybe it is because the responders are summing up their thoughts in a nutshell. If I were to explain my journey from a person raised in a Christian family to one who really just doesn't know, it would take pages and pages that no one would really want to read. Getting to this point didn't come from shallow thinking.

[Mom in High Heels]

I'm not saying it's just the hypocrite issue that we have to watch out for, though that was a repetitive one. But even the ones that didn't state hypocrites in their top reasons for leaving Christianity, it was often things equally meaningless (in terms of searching for the truth) like feeling unwelcome, things they didn't like, other ideas they found more appealing, etc. All these things are missing the point.

 

I'm not saying this is what you're doing for sure because I don't know, but I wonder if you have thought a lot about these things and have solid reasons for what you do believe? Red flags to me are when you say certain things "ring false" to you, and there are things you "simply dislike." Sometimes even when people know something to be true, they choose not to live like it was so (irrationally, I'd say). But if you really want to know and believe what is true, at the end of the day, what does what you dislike have to do with it? There are a lot of things about Christianity to not like: people making fun of you, family strife, people thinking you're a bigot, principles that you can't bend even when it would be easier to do so... for the early Christians and still plenty today in place like Sudan... things to not like include being tortured, getting your kids taken away, being oppressed. And if we're talking about thing you have to believe... again, what does liking or not liking it have to do with the truth of it? The reason it's a big deal to get this stuff straight is because if Christianity IS true and you turned away because you simply didn't like something you had to do or believe... there are some pretty serious consequences (and regrets) to be had.

 

Same thing with phrases like "ring false." I hear a lot of this so it's not just you. But I scratch my head because it portrays the idea that you don't have any legitimate, well thought out reasons for what you think is false, and you know it. That my sound harsh, but that's not my intention. I'm just trying to point out that we cannot trust what "rings false" or "rings true" for that matter. People make mistakes! Especially when you aren't really investigating, searching, reading. I am continually amazed at what gigantic decisions people make about religion, eternal truth, their souls, etc, based on "what rings true to them" or what they "thought" without ever reading, thinking, struggling with the claims and implications.

 

We need to remember that this isn't deciding which cereal to eat in the morning. It's investigating the truth. It's probably not a wise path to just decide what The Truth is based on what you like, don't like, or "rings false" or "rings true." People make mistakes about everything. All the more care needs to be taken when you are considering something like whether Jesus is the Son of God. If you're wrong, there are huge stakes for yourself, your family, your children.

 

I'm sure you didn't mean this to be insulting, but I'm insulted. You make it sound as though it's something I've just casually decided. It's not. How do you know I haven't read, thought or struggled with it? I have, and for me, it's not something I believe in. I don't appreciate being told that I've made my decision lightly and that I need to take more care. I don't appreciate being told I need to investigate. I don't see where I have to give a legitimate reason as to why I don't believe. I have plenty of them, but I don't have to share them. If you want to believe that Jesus is the son of God, go right ahead. I don't mind, but don't try to tell me that I'm wrong in my way of thinking. Perhaps many people simply say something doesn't ring true to them without expanding because they don't feel like getting a lecture on how they are clearly wrong.

I don't think the stakes are huge because I don't believe. Guess what? I'm not the only one. Roughly 70% of the world is not Christian are we all bound for h*ll and d*amnation? Seriously? This is one of the many, many things that turn me off to Christianity. Who are you (general you) to decide whose religion is true? If there is such a thing as a merciful God (which again, I don't believe), then why would he condemn a person who has lived a decent, moral life to eternal d*mnation, and yet give the murder/child rapist/what have you a place in his kingdom simply because they decided to "repent?" It absolutely makes no sense. You can be a good, descent, loving person, but if you don't "come into the fold" that's just too bad for you, but go out and commit all the heinous crimes you want and then say you believe and all is forgiven? I can't get behind that.

 

I could have gone on for a very long time as to why I don't believe, but I tried to keep it simple.

[Audrey]

I can see you are new here.

 

Yes, Audrey is a witch. What more is there to understand?

 

2 mamas and 3 babies... Means two women in a relationship raising 3 children. exactly what it says. No trickery or Tom-foolery. I promise. :tongue_smilie:

 

We have all kinds here. We are one big family that argues a lot but also loves a lot. If you are looking for homogenous, you are in the wrong place.

 

 

 

.

 

 

Thanks Heather.

 

We really do need to go shoe shopping soon. I'd fly on over on my invisi-stealth broom, but it's in the shop at the moment and I'm short on newt eyes to pay for the repairs.

 

And, sorry I didn't get back to this thread earlier, but I was putting the finishing touches on our first quarter of lesson plans. It would have taken less time, but I spilled a batch of troll defense potion on it.

 

No worries, though. I bought another goat and made more.

[Mergath]

I have noticed that the vast majority of responses don't talk about how they came to the understanding that Christianity was not true for x, y, z, reasons. We can lament hypocrites in all religions, ideologies, and the PTA for that matter, but I just wanted to point out that the presence of hypocrites has nothing at all to do with whether or not a religion is true. It is essential to understand that. It is frustrating and sad that people often don't think clearly enough to consider the validity of a religion based on the claims IT makes, not the faithfulness of so-called members. In terms of Christianity, we can't forget that Jesus predicted that there would be wolves in with the sheep (there already were in *his* day, let alone ours! -Judas, anyone?). Christianity has become so huge there are bound to be millions of hypocrites. In fact, Jesus said there would be, so we should not be surprised, and most of all we should not base *our faith* and what we believe to be *true* on what other people do or say! If you turn from the Christian faith it should be for intellectual reasons... not because you found a "new idea" or because another idea made you "feel better" or because a lot of Christians you met weren't what they were cracked up to be. Nobody who leaves for these reasons were there because they thought it was *true* and that's the real question, isn't it?

 

I think the prevalence of horrible, cruel Christians is an excellent reason not to want to be a Christian. One thing that all Christians seem to believe without many exceptions is that becoming a Christian "changes your heart." Why in the world would I want to become more like all these people? People filled with judgement and meanness and hypocrisy?

 

And who are you to judge who left for adequate reasons or not? I'm fairly sure that all of us who were raised as Christians and then left had multiple reasons. I know I did. However, you want intellectual reasons as well, so here they are.

 

The God of the Old Testament commands mass murder, turns a blind eye to things like rape, incest, and slavery when it's convenient for the plot, picks and chooses favorites based on bloodlines, and seems to be an all-around jerk.

 

Most of the New Testament was written by someone who had never even met Jesus. Between history and translation errors, most of what's there is probably jacked up all to heck anyway. While there is a lot of wisdom in the Gospels, there are four different accounts of one man's life that don't always match up very well, and so I won't be regarding that as a source of inerrant truth anytime soon.

 

Also, I'm not going to base my life and my morality on the archaic laws of a culture that existed a couple thousand years ago and is essentially alien to the way we live now. I'm not going to be part of a religion that loves to cherry pick rules from Leviticus just to support the social issue of the day.

[regentrude]

I have noticed that the vast majority of responses don't talk about how they came to the understanding that Christianity was not true for x, y, z, reasons. We can lament hypocrites in all religions, ideologies, and the PTA for that matter, but I just wanted to point out that the presence of hypocrites has nothing at all to do with whether or not a religion is true. It is essential to understand that. It is frustrating and sad that people often don't think clearly enough to consider the validity of a religion based on the claims IT makes, not the faithfulness of so-called members.

 

this is a contradiction in itself. If the truth of a religion could be ascertained, it would be science. Since the truth of a religion can not be ascertained, it requires faith, belief.

A good way to investigate Christianity's truth claims is to look at the claims that almost no Christians disagree with: God exists (rule out atheism), God has revealed himself (scriptures & Jesus), Jesus is the Son of God like he said, Jesus rose from the dead. These are the core truths that you can investigate with some reasonable hope of finding the answer if you are truly seeking with an open mind.

 

As you say, these are claims. One can either believe that these are true, or not. The core of faith is the choice to believe without conclusive proof. This contradicts the search for an actual truth. If I can not independently verify without believing first, and if, in fact I am not supposed to know, but to just have faith, then the truth of these claims is a question outside a rational analysis.

 

The Bible most certainly is not an adequate tool to search for truth, because it has been written by humans and edited by humans who chose which parts to include in the canon and which to omit. Paul, for example, was human and not God; I have strong issues with his opinions and do not see why I should accept his authority over how to behave. The fact that his contributions feature prominently in the NT simply reflects the mindset of the men who assembled the Bible in its current version.

 

And: if one's experience with Christians is that religion brings out the worst in people and that whole groups of believers are judgmental and self-righteous, then this is a perfect reason not to be associated with this group in any way. As I said, I do not have an issue with God - but with the interpretation of God by the humans who congregate in churches.

Edited August 31, 2012 by regentrude

[Dory]

I don't know about you, of course, but I definitely think it is true for a lot of people. Response after response talked about reasons they left Christianity which had nothing to do with Christianity itself. That was my point and I definitely think it's a big issue... an epidemic, really.

 

I summed it up that way, but in reality the whole story of why I've ended up where I have is WAY too long for here and really isn't the sort of thing that I people want to read about. Suffice it to say that I tend to not want to learn about or follow a belief system in which I am unable to find anyone who is able to act in a loving, caring manner to the people around them. And perhaps I'll go to hell for it, but really, I'm already in hell so I don't really care.