More church pressure, WWYD? Long, again...

[shanvan]

Some of you many remember my post (here) about our family being pressured to participate in church events by one of the elders. We prayed about it and decided to let the whole thing pass without saying a word. We felt there was too much of a risk of hurt feelings and decided to just forgive him silently. However, we decided on a plan for dealing with him by me and Dc not answering him and instead directing him to dh every single time he pressures. Then Dh would be very clear about whether or not we would participate.

 

Well, now the pastor seems to have joined in. Two Sundays in a row and the sermons have been about 'people' not doing enough for the church. Today was the worst and we believe it is aimed at us. Most of the sermon was about how God does not want people who stand on the sidelines and how you are sinning if you don't use the gifts God has given you. Fine, but every single example involved helping with some church activity. We believe this is partly directed at me b/c they know I was a public school teacher and they are upset that I did not volunteer to teach VBS. We also think they are upset that we did not march in the local Independence Day parade to help pass out tracts. The elder who was pressuring us would not look us in the eye today and walked right past without saying a word.

 

Our reasons for not participating in these extra activities are the same as before. I have too much on my plate (2 relatives I check in on and help), I suffer from a chronic illness, and the church is about 30 mins from our home which necessitates a drive of about an hour total. VBS lasts until 9pm every single night for 2 weeks. In order to participate our family would be split apart for the entire 2 weeks every evening. Dc and I would have to eat early and leave the house before Dh even gets home. Not to mention that they are 2 weeks of teaching and planning that I cannot give up. If I am out late I will be exhausted and in pain. I still have curriculum and books to choose and buy, and courses to design for fall, and this will be Ds's first year of high school.

 

There is no one else we think he could possibly be talking about. The church is very small and most everyone else in the church is elderly and frail. The other 3 families with Dc are helping for the entire 2 weeks of VBS. Nothing has been said to us directly, only through comments in the sermon. We feel sort of stuck, b/c how can we even say anything about this since nothing has been directly said?

 

We are sick about this since there are some people (especially some of the older people) we've grown to love. We really don't want to leave the church, but we also don't want to be brow beaten week after week. I am so torn up and don't know what to do. And let me say, there are several elderly people who would miss us terribly, especially in such a small church with so few young people.

 

I feel like a direct conversation b/t my Dh and the pastor would just be an opening to an argument. Clearly our family and the pastor and elder do not have the same interpretation of what it means to serve God. I believe I am serving God by teaching my children, helping my widowed mother, and elderly uncle, my neighbors when I can and in many other small ways. These are the things the Lord has placed in my life for me to do and they are time consuming. He has placed some limits on me that other people do not have. I look normal, but am actually suffering from chronic pain much of the time. I have also led Bible studies for women in my home from time to time as I was able. They are all women from the local community, not from church. They are women who do not read the Bible on a regular basis. Many of them have been so appreciative and have told me they never knew the Bible was so fascinating. I'm digressing.....but my point is that we are not a family who runs off to parties instead of VBS. We take our Christian walk seriously and desire to please God. I feel like the sermons I heard this week and last week are turning 'serving God' into 'serving this particular church'. BTW, we have helped several of the elderly members with practical tasks too from time to time.

 

Dh does not want to go to church next week since that will be in the middle of VBS which we are not attending and he feels more of the same comments will be included in the sermon.

 

My feelings are hurt that our pastor would include these statements in a sermon in front of the entire congregation and yet not even speak to us privately about it. So, have any of you dealt with this level of pressure from a church before? Anyone want to tell me what to do? Be gentle, this is very hard on us.

 

Sorry I went on so long. I am very upset.

 

[KnitWit]

We have been in your shoes, which is why I can emphatically say "Shake the dust off your shoes, walk away and never look back".

[Melinda in VT]

I would stop going to that church and look for another.

[TranquilMind]

I feel like a direct conversation b/t my Dh and the pastor would just be an opening to an argument. Clearly our family and the pastor and elder do not have the same interpretation of what it means to serve God. I believe I am serving God by teaching my children, helping my widowed mother, and elderly uncle, my neighbors when I can and in many other small ways. These are the things the Lord has placed in my life for me to do and they are time consuming. He has placed some limits on me that other people do not have. I look normal, but am actually suffering from chronic pain much of the time. I have also led Bible studies for women in my home from time to time as I was able. They are all women from the local community, not from church. They are women who do not read the Bible on a regular basis. Many of them have been so appreciative and have told me they never knew the Bible was so fascinating. I'm digressing.....but my point is that we are not a family who runs off to parties instead of VBS. We take our Christian walk seriously and desire to please God. I feel like the sermons I heard this week and last week are turning 'serving God' into 'serving this particular church'. BTW, we have helped several of the elderly members with practical tasks too from time to time.

 

 

 

Matthew 18 says you should go to your brother first, and talk out the problem. I think you are spot on to address the Pastor directly and state your case and your decision, as you have done clearly above. If he will not receive it, you are free to go, but I think this is the right way to approach it.

 

I can relate to you. I've led ministries and done all kinds of things, but right now, I'm just not able to for a couple of reasons. I will again, but I will not be pressured.

[KungFuPanda]

Gee. I wonder why they have trouble attracting young families.

 

Once you move on you'll wish you'd done it sooner.

[Ewe Mama]

I would write a nice long letter to the "pastor" and find a new church.

 

:grouphug:

 

Church leaders tend to forget that Jesus was not in it for the numbers or the glory. He spread the Good News and let people decide for themselves. He didn't bash them over the heads with it. He also didn't institute VBS.

 

It is perfectly acceptable for you to look at your ministry in life as raising godly children, being a kind neighbor, a caring relative, and a teacher to your children. Mothering is a ministry and I am very glad that you are doing it!

[athomemom]

:grouphug: I am sorry for your troubles. I can't imagine what you are feeling. I hope you find the answers that you need.

[AmyontheFarm]

:grouphug:

 

Once the pastor knew what activities I was currently doing he realized that I was more than stretched enough helping in the community. Perhaps he needs to be enlightened and could lend a hand visiting your family members for you. :)

[sassenach]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

[Stellalarella]

 

I feel like a direct conversation b/t my Dh and the pastor would just be an opening to an argument. Clearly our family and the pastor and elder do not have the same interpretation of what it means to serve God.

 

Arguments aren't necessarily bad, although a fight would be bad. You can see in the book of Acts how God worked in the church, even using confrontation.

 

Pray. Ask God for a meeting for a direct conversation. Don't send anyone alone. Maybe God will use your family to work change in your pastor's heart.

 

:grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

In one similar situation, after much prayer, we decided that despite the pressure, that God had a ministry for us there. We stayed and put up with the pressure, not answering back but not just taking it either. (Which means that while we didn't go out of our way to confront people, we did answer people honestly when they asked us about our thoughts.) God used us and certainly used the situation to help me grow in my own spiritual walk. It was a pressure cooker though! I guess what I'm saying is that it really comes down to where God wants you to minister and to grow as a family. If you are getting fed spiritually despite the spiritual abuse (and that is what it is) then God might want you there. But there is no shame or wrong in deciding that your family is better off in another healthier church.

[Chris in VA]

I'm so sorry he's being such a weenie.

 

:grouphug:

 

I do think you need to have dh go in and talk to the pastor about it all. I know my husband would much prefer people come to him and get things out into the open. I'd say if there's an argument, then you are being given "permission" to go, b/c an argument would be inappropriate. It'd be my fleece, actually--not that I do that much ( put a fleece before the Lord) , but it'd be kinda obvious at that point that you need to move on.

 

I can say I'd also be very careful about assuming the pastor is talking about you in his sermon, even if it feels and seems like that. Find out directly, and see what happens.

 

Oh, and does he know about your chronic illness? If it's not apparent to others, he may not unless you tell him.

[Celia]

I've been there, and ended up having to leave, but not specifically for the same reasons. I would go with dh, and directly talk to the leadership about it, even if it does lead to an arguement. It's important that you speak up.

[KnitWit]

I do agree that the Bible says to go to them. I do. We did. The only reason I don't 100% REGRET going is because of that verse. Doing the right thing does not always turn out nice. BUT, it precipitated our departure, which was GOOD for us.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[myfunnybunch]

:grouphug:

 

Really, you have three options:

Leave things the way they are without saying anything directly while the church leadership also says nothing directly; continue stewing and being frustrated.

Go to the pastor and have a conversation, then decide if this is the church for your family.

Or simply decide now that this is not the church for your family.

 

It sounds like this is not the church for you, imo, but I'm not in your shoes.

 

:grouphug:

 

Cat

[WTMCassandra]

Honestly, with the passive-aggressive things you have previously reported, I believe:

 

1) You are probably right that it was directed at you, particularly if you are the "only" "younger" family not doing VBS.

2) Trying to confront either the pastor or the elder Biblically will not work and will make it worse.

 

I truly believe that it is time for you to look for another church, unless you are willing to withstand the pressure cooker like Jean said. I wouldn't even write a letter.

[FaithManor]

Gently,

 

Now is the time to leave gracefully and without creating a fuss. Do not look back. Where you serve, how you serve, and when you serve is between you and God and you are doing what God wants you to do. God did not die nor did He abdicate his authority to the pastor or the deacon. They are the ones presenting with very unhealthy, very controlling, spiritually abusive atitudes - they aren't listening nor are they exhibiting compassion and understanding.

 

I completely agree with Matthew 18 in theory. Theology is wonderful on paper. :001_smile: It has been my experience that unfortunately :sad:, most churches do not practice it and that the culture in most congregations and amongst church leadership does not allow for it at least within standard evangelicalism. I have seen it work very, very well amongst liturgical churches so I have to wonder if it may have to do with the church hierarchy embracing this, actively teaching it, and practicing it themselves.

 

We once waited six months for a private meeting with a pastor and since he didn't want to hear what we had to say (it was about an abusive person working in the children's ministries department and he preferred to just pretend nothing was wrong), we ended up leaving. Matthew 18 requires that the other person is open. You've already addressed this sooooooo many times with the deacon and the pastor has already been told why all of this programming is too much for your family and yet he does nothing about the deacon and now the situation has escalated. Going to them alone again is just repetition of steps that have already taken place. On top of which, the next step of taking a witness and then more witnesses doesn't even sound feasible since you don't seem to have any other families in the church that see things from your perspective.

 

I would not attend during VBS and I would steal myself to go back after that for one Sunday and then approach the people who really will miss you and say goodbye. You don't have to go into any details. Just state that due to the traveling distance for your family and that being hard on scheduling and your health, that you and your husband have decided to see if you can't find a church closer to home or one with a schedule that works better for your family. Let them know you really appreciated their friendship and fellowship. Then hug, say goodbye, walk to the car, and let that be that. It's best for everyone. No hurt feelings get dredged up, you and your dh do not have to defend yourselves to anyone, the deacon and the pastor do not have time to formulate a response or an offensive against your arguments, etc. They believe they are right; you know that this is wrong for your family...that's an impass. A graceful exit is the most Christian gift you can give yourselves and that little church family.

 

And I'm truly sorry that the church leadership does not seem to care two hoots for your health. They should be praying and offering comfort and it's sad that this is how you are being treated.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Faith

[teamturner]

Mattthew 18 says you should go to your brother first, and talk out the problem. I think you are spot on to address the Pastor directly and state your case and your decision, as you have done clearly above. If he will not receive it, you are free to go, but I think this is the right way to approach it.

 

I can relate to you. I've led ministries and done all kinds of things, but right now, I'm just not able to for a couple of reasons. I will again, but I will not be pressured.

 

:iagree: I wouldn't leave w/o first following Matthew 18 and give them a chance to correct their view of your service. If they don't, then you can feel free to move on. I'm so sorry.

[fraidycat]

Gee. How very un-Christian of them. :grouphug:

 

You ask WWYD? My answer: I'd find a new church.

[shanvan]

I'm so sorry he's being such a weenie.

 

:grouphug:

 

I do think you need to have dh go in and talk to the pastor about it all. I know my husband would much prefer people come to him and get things out into the open. I'd say if there's an argument, then you are being given "permission" to go, b/c an argument would be inappropriate. It'd be my fleece, actually--not that I do that much ( put a fleece before the Lord) , but it'd be kinda obvious at that point that you need to move on.

 

I can say I'd also be very careful about assuming the pastor is talking about you in his sermon, even if it feels and seems like that. Find out directly, and see what happens.

 

Oh, and does he know about your chronic illness? If it's not apparent to others, he may not unless you tell him.

 

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

All I can say about the 'silent forgiving' is that Dh and I decided that with the particular elder we were dealing with, and under the circumstances, it was the healthiest thing to do. We know him better than you do.

 

Our only 'evidence' comes from the constant pressure we have experienced from that particular elder. But, yes, you are right about the pastor's sermon and I have thought that there is a possibility he may not be talking about us. However, I don't think we are way off base here. There really aren't a lot of other people who even could be helping. The problem is the church was once a huge congregation and has dwindled to about 30-40 people who attend weekly, and many of them elderly. But, they are still trying to hold the same outreach programs that were done when the church had huge numbers.

 

Yes, the pastor knows all about my chronic illness.

[WTMCassandra]

Well said, FaithManor. This is wise counsel, I think.

[Zebra]

Gently,

 

Now is the time to leave gracefully and without creating a fuss. Do not look back. Where you serve, how you serve, and when you serve is between you and God and you are doing what God wants you to do. God did not die nor did He abdicate his authority to the pastor or the deacon. They are the ones presenting with very unhealthy, very controlling, spiritually abusive atitudes - they aren't listening nor are they exhibiting compassion and understanding.

 

 

:iagree:

 

They are not going to stop pressuring you, and you aren't going to change your mind. I think you've reached an impasse. Unless you think you can sit down and talk it out with someone.

[bolt.]

It sounds like your pastor is a bit troubled at the ministry dynamics of a small / elderly + young families congregation. That's known to be a challenging situation in which to pastor -- high on needs, low on man-power. So, I don't know that his comments were specifically about you and your family... there's a lot of generalities in a situation like that. Sometimes a preacher wishes 'more people' would do something, without thinking concretely about who could possibly do it on an individual level.

 

None the less, the message of "Buck up and give us more of your time and effort." -- is not going to be effective in drawing more people closer together. It gets people's backs up and drives them away. Combined with the personal pressure of the elder who doesn't respect your 'no' it runs close to the recipe for a spiritually abusive environment. (Not that it's intentional -- just a combined effect that's not healthy.)

 

I'm very happy to hear that you and your dh are secure in your sense of yourselves and serving God in a variety of ways. That's important -- otherwise these messages might be doing more to your family than annoying you.

 

I suggest a completely different conversational tactic. Your current tactic seems to be (generally speaking) to explain the obstacles and hardships that prevent your participation. It's a, "We'd love to but... If only... We wish we could..." -- message that doesn't seem to be getting through. It has a 'still pondering' vibe that suggests (to certain assertive people) that you can be talked around, since it's only circumstances that are preventing you.

 

Instead maybe try a blunter message, along the lines of, "We just don't want to. We don't think it's worth the effort. It sounds nice enough, but just not our cup of tea. We have things to do that we consider more important." This sends a clear, firm message that you are just not interested in what is being proposed. You can follow that (if necessary) by, "I'm sorry, but there's no reason for you to try to change my mind. I told you my decision."

 

However, I'm close to the other voices here in saying that if this sort of thing continues (or, heaven forbid, ramps-up!) you probably need to begin to think/pray about what a plan might look like for transitioning to a healthier congregation. It's OK to skip a week. It's OK to begin considering your options and presenting them to God.

 

If you say anything to the pastor, try for neutral language that indicates, "maybe it's not a good fit" (the church wants more participation, and we live too far away, it's more than we are willing to invest) rather than language that indicates that you feel attacked and pressured -- even though you do. A lot of good conversations are begun with tact rather than a statement of offense.

Edited July 8, 2012 by bolt.

[Heathermomster]

Matthew 18 says you should go to your brother first, and talk out the problem. I think you are spot on to address the Pastor directly and state your case and your decision, as you have done clearly above. If he will not receive it, you are free to go, but I think this is the right way to approach it.

 

I can relate to you. I've led ministries and done all kinds of things, but right now, I'm just not able to for a couple of reasons. I will again, but I will not be pressured.

:iagree:I couldn't agree more. Your DH and you should prayerfully and quietly approach your pastor and address this issue.

[elegantlion]

If you address the issue and it was about you, be prepared to hear the "well God is convicting you, that's why you're uncomfortable."

 

Honestly, I wonder if you're just ready for a change. Even if it's not about you, maybe it just feels like one more mark against you in their book.

 

Personally, I'd have a hard time going back period.

[TranquilMind]

If you address the issue and it was about you, be prepared to hear the "well God is convicting you, that's why you're uncomfortable."

 

 

My response would be, "You know what? When God is telling me to do something, he tells me. God doesn't tell someone else to tell me, though He will confirm through others what I already know because HE has already brought that to my attention. He told me to do what I'm doing now right now. When I get the word otherwise, I'll be the first to tell others."

[marbel]

If you have already gone to the elder and the pastor with your concerns (I think you have, right? Both separately and together?), and still feel you are being singled out for criticism, maybe it's time to take it to the entire leadership team. Could your husband can go to one of their meetings and lay out the problem to them all?

 

Maybe you have a rogue elder who is overstepping his bounds. For all you know, maybe you are not the only family he is bothering.

 

Obviously if your form of church government doesn't allow for attendance at meetings, my comment will be useless to you. But suffering in silence is no way to live in a church.

 

It's also not wise to speculate on the pastor's sermon. My husband is a pastor in training and he's already gotten comments from people that a sermon "must have been written for me" when it had not.

 

:grouphug:

[heart'sjoy]

Hugs we are in a church of 30-40 too with the same age dynamics. Only 2 young families and most others over 70.The pressure has been ok and overall healthy for our family. It would be very difficult to leave.

 

You've been given some great ideas. It does take a willingness of both parties to look at the isssue.

 

State the fact:

We are being asked multiple times____ to participate.

 

State the problem:

We are choosing to participate at a level that keeps our family healthy.

 

Give room for opinions and options:

What do you suggest?

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

DH and I have had to do this one time. The other person was willing. It was handled well. But the relationship did end because an agreement could not be reached. It was valueable because the issues were clarified even if they couldn't be resolved.

[Joanne]

I would leave this church without fuss, confrontation, or drama.

 

I also suggest you read a book about spiritual abuse before you decide on another church.

[staceyobu]

Why is a church with 30 people trying to hold a TWO week VBS? I've been at churches like this in the past. I worked a mostly outdoor vbs for a week with a sweltering six week old in a sling because I felt pressured to serve.

 

I love our church now. The church has programs that people start on their own and then the leadership assists with it. If no one wants to step up and do it, they drop the program. There is no one in our church who has ever offered to run VBS. We have about 150 attending... many young able families. We don't have VBS. No pressure from church leadership to volunteer. It's great. If you want your children to have VBS you can either offer to direct the program or send them to another church. How is it utilizing your gifting if you are only doing something because you are pressured by leadership to do it?

 

I also think soooo much of what churches do is a waste of time. I'm sorry, but singing in the choir isn't going to save souls. But, I've heard tremendous guilt trips in previous churches to sing in the choir. I would love to see statistics on church growth related to VBS programs. I've never seen a huge increase in attendance post VBS in any church I've been a part of. Most of the programs people are guilted to serve in really aren't beneficial to the church as a whole or the individual.

 

Tons of churches around here throw outrageously expensive fall festivals. Our church doesn't. We go trick or treating and talk to everyone on our block and build relationships with our neighbors.

 

And, just for the record, I think it's fine for churches to offer whatever they want... but they need to have the willing volunteers and not people who are pressured into doing it.

[Denise in Florida]

We have been in your shoes, which is why I can emphatically say "Shake the dust off your shoes, walk away and never look back".

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[8circles]

I would stop going to that church and look for another.

 

:iagree:But honestly, I feel you must already know this.

[marbel]

Why is a church with 30 people trying to hold a TWO week VBS? I've been at churches like this in the past. I worked a mostly outdoor vbs for a week with a sweltering six week old in a sling because I felt pressured to serve.

 

I have belonged to a small church that had a VBS for kids in the area. I didn't help with it, because I just don't like VBS, but by all accounts it was a satisfying week for the volunteers and attendees. That church had many willing volunteers even among the small congregation.

 

The problem isn't the small church per se. The problem is pressuing people. I don't think the OP is in a position to tell the church leaders not to have a VBS. But she should be able to decline to participate if she doesn't want to or can't for whatever reason.

[8circles]

Gently,

 

Now is the time to leave gracefully and without creating a fuss. Do not look back. Where you serve, how you serve, and when you serve is between you and God and you are doing what God wants you to do. God did not die nor did He abdicate his authority to the pastor or the deacon. They are the ones presenting with very unhealthy, very controlling, spiritually abusive atitudes - they aren't listening nor are they exhibiting compassion and understanding.

 

I completely agree with Matthew 18 in theory. Theology is wonderful on paper. :001_smile: It has been my experience that unfortunately :sad:, most churches do not practice it and that the culture in most congregations and amongst church leadership does not allow for it at least within standard evangelicalism. I have seen it work very, very well amongst liturgical churches so I have to wonder if it may have to do with the church hierarchy embracing this, actively teaching it, and practicing it themselves.

 

We once waited six months for a private meeting with a pastor and since he didn't want to hear what we had to say (it was about an abusive person working in the children's ministries department and he preferred to just pretend nothing was wrong), we ended up leaving. Matthew 18 requires that the other person is open. You've already addressed this sooooooo many times with the deacon and the pastor has already been told why all of this programming is too much for your family and yet he does nothing about the deacon and now the situation has escalated. Going to them alone again is just repetition of steps that have already taken place. On top of which, the next step of taking a witness and then more witnesses doesn't even sound feasible since you don't seem to have any other families in the church that see things from your perspective.

 

I would not attend during VBS and I would steal myself to go back after that for one Sunday and then approach the people who really will miss you and say goodbye. You don't have to go into any details. Just state that due to the traveling distance for your family and that being hard on scheduling and your health, that you and your husband have decided to see if you can't find a church closer to home or one with a schedule that works better for your family. Let them know you really appreciated their friendship and fellowship. Then hug, say goodbye, walk to the car, and let that be that. It's best for everyone. No hurt feelings get dredged up, you and your dh do not have to defend yourselves to anyone, the deacon and the pastor do not have time to formulate a response or an offensive against your arguments, etc. They believe they are right; you know that this is wrong for your family...that's an impass. A graceful exit is the most Christian gift you can give yourselves and that little church family.

 

And I'm truly sorry that the church leadership does not seem to care two hoots for your health. They should be praying and offering comfort and it's sad that this is how you are being treated.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Faith

 

Faith, you are very wise. :iagree:

[*********]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

Very wise advice, Shannon.

[shanvan]

Gently,

 

Now is the time to leave gracefully and without creating a fuss. Do not look back. Where you serve, how you serve, and when you serve is between you and God and you are doing what God wants you to do. God did not die nor did He abdicate his authority to the pastor or the deacon. They are the ones presenting with very unhealthy, very controlling, spiritually abusive atitudes - they aren't listening nor are they exhibiting compassion and understanding.

 

I completely agree with Matthew 18 in theory. Theology is wonderful on paper. :001_smile: It has been my experience that unfortunately :sad:, most churches do not practice it and that the culture in most congregations and amongst church leadership does not allow for it at least within standard evangelicalism. I have seen it work very, very well amongst liturgical churches so I have to wonder if it may have to do with the church hierarchy embracing this, actively teaching it, and practicing it themselves.

 

We once waited six months for a private meeting with a pastor and since he didn't want to hear what we had to say (it was about an abusive person working in the children's ministries department and he preferred to just pretend nothing was wrong), we ended up leaving. Matthew 18 requires that the other person is open. You've already addressed this sooooooo many times with the deacon and the pastor has already been told why all of this programming is too much for your family and yet he does nothing about the deacon and now the situation has escalated. Going to them alone again is just repetition of steps that have already taken place. On top of which, the next step of taking a witness and then more witnesses doesn't even sound feasible since you don't seem to have any other families in the church that see things from your perspective.

 

I would not attend during VBS and I would steal myself to go back after that for one Sunday and then approach the people who really will miss you and say goodbye. You don't have to go into any details. Just state that due to the traveling distance for your family and that being hard on scheduling and your health, that you and your husband have decided to see if you can't find a church closer to home or one with a schedule that works better for your family. Let them know you really appreciated their friendship and fellowship. Then hug, say goodbye, walk to the car, and let that be that. It's best for everyone. No hurt feelings get dredged up, you and your dh do not have to defend yourselves to anyone, the deacon and the pastor do not have time to formulate a response or an offensive against your arguments, etc. They believe they are right; you know that this is wrong for your family...that's an impass. A graceful exit is the most Christian gift you can give yourselves and that little church family.

 

And I'm truly sorry that the church leadership does not seem to care two hoots for your health. They should be praying and offering comfort and it's sad that this is how you are being treated.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Faith

 

Faith,

 

You are so right in your application of Matthew 18. Dh and I have been discussing it. We know what the Biblical ideal is. Our concern is that we not stir up trouble in the church. We have one, maybe two elderly gentlemen who would probably agree with us. I just hate to even approach them and make it an issue.

 

Paula,

 

What you describe is exactly what we fear will be said. Once it's said there is no going back .

 

Talked to my mother, which I really didn't want to do b/c it makes our pastor look bad (or, considering some of the responses, it makes me and Dh look bad). Her advice is whether the storm. Continue to go and do not even consider that anyone is upset with you b/c you have done nothing wrong. Your service is b/t you and God no matter what anyone says anyway. Don't let it keep you from fellowship with others. Continue to state what you will and will not do.

 

I want to add, too that our pastor made the statement today, that being sick or tired is not a reason to fore-go serving in the church.

[Galatea]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

I can understand how there are situations where a pastor says something general that people may take as an admonishment when it's not meant to be. However, this is about the pastor preaching about time spent serving in the church. In my opinion, if the pastor thinks people have a problem serving the church, then he should address it to them personally. If the sermon was about service in general, but not about the church at all, then I could understand saying that the concern was unfounded.

 

But to address OP, I've been there too. My husband and I used to go to a church with very good friends of ours, where my husband's friend was the youth pastor. We assisted with the youth ministry when we could, but we also both had jobs where we had evening hours sometimes and my husband would be out of town.

 

The main church pastor would lecture us sometimes about not coming to church social events, missing Sunday services sometimes, or not always being at youth group events. We came to all of the activities we could and mentored many young people who had no other spiritual influence in their lives. But for some people, what you are doing is never enough and they will never understand your limitations. If they don't even make the attempt, it's not worth trying to stick it out.

 

Find another place where you can help. It was a hard decision for us, but in the end it was worth it and we're actually still really close to a number of the teens (now young adults) that we used to lead.

 

The biggest question I have is does the church leadership understand your situation and your other obligations/limitations? Have you told them? Do they respect your own family obligations? If they make no attempt to understand and respect that, it's not worth staying because they will never change.

[russiantwins]

I would stop going to that church and look for another.

 

what she said.

[besroma]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

I think this is very good advice.

[Juniper]

I am so sorry you are going through this. Do you know what the Law of Investment is when dealing with abusive relationships and institutions? The law of investment basically says, "I will weather this, but if they cross the line one more time we will leave." Then one more time happens and you look back at all the investment, relationships, the familiarity and routine and you once again repeat, "I will forgive and weather this, but if it happens one more time....." and then the next time you not only have all the investment you have before, but you have added the most recent scenario to the pile of investment. When does it stop? How much do you tolerate? It is rare that it is going to be one explosive event and you will just KNOW. Those do not happen until you become well versed in the "healthy." When you are literate in healthy church dynamics you will flee from unhealth.

 

Also, leaving does not have to be forever...you never know if they will get a new Pastor.

 

One more thought to leave you with. If the church was bigger before it is likely there are people who know and love you, just waiting for you to make the tough decision they had to make.

 

:grouphug:

 

PS, I have The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and would be happy to mail it to you if you are comfortable pm'ing me your address. I was just about to donate it to Goodwill.

[RanchGirl]

I don't think it would be fair to leave a church you otherwise love without confirming that the pressure you are *feeling* is actually what they intend. I also wouldn't want to have a big confrontation. I don't know about "stirring things up" -- I don't know what that means or why it would have to become a big church event? (I also wasn't familiar with "silent forgiveness" so I am not terribly knowledgeable apparently!)

 

I would send an email or call the pastor and say "we've been feeling a lot of pressure from X (elder) to participate in various church activities way beyond what we feel called to do. Then your sermon this week had me wondering if you are also trying to participate in this pressure? Maybe we're misreading so we wanted to check with you before jumping to conclusions."

 

If he replies that your feelings are correct; they believe you need to do more for the church and have in fact been trying to communicate this to you through the elder and the recent sermons, thank him for clarifying his position and move on. If he answers that he has no idea what you're talking about, you can apologize for the misunderstanding and ask him to speak to the elder and tone him down.

[Galatea]

I want to add, too that our pastor made the statement today, that being sick or tired is not a reason to fore-go serving in the church.

 

Ouch. That just sounds very unkind and judgmental. There are situations where saying something like this might have a purpose (someone who does nothing for anyone because they constantly make excuses) but none of them fit with what you've said about yourself or your family. I hesitate to say this, but it sounds like this pastor is Christian but not Christ-like.

[Dustybug]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

 

:iagree:

[Susann]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

:iagree:

Be upfront and honest dealing with this issue and have a direct conversation before making any changes.

[mumto2]

Shannon, it definately sounds like you wish to stay for now. I would start telling people when they ask about your week exactly how busy you are. Make sure they know how much time you personally spend on your children's education. That you spend time with your mother and uncle. Tell them you would love to be able to do more but you need to be able to do these things physically. Be friendly and bring it up with the members you are close to first. Let them know your plate is full. I suspect your elderly friends will spread the word far more effectively then you.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[shanvan]

I don't think it would be fair to leave a church you otherwise love without confirming that the pressure you are *feeling* is actually what they intend. I also wouldn't want to have a big confrontation. I don't know about "stirring things up" -- I don't know what that means or why it would have to become a big church event? (I also wasn't familiar with "silent forgiveness" so I am not terribly knowledgeable apparently!)

 

I used 'silently forgive' him to mean that we understand that this elder may be coming from a good place of really wanting our company, that we see why he doesn't realize how much trouble he is causing us, and we have decided to forgive his recent pressuring without any kind of confrontation. We decided how to handle the pressuring. I don't believe there is a term 'silent forgiveness'. It's my description of what Dh and I decided.

 

I mention not wanting to stir things up because if we leave after a discussion with the pastor, people will want to know why, even if no one tells them, they will speculate. That is what I mean about causing trouble. I feel for the elderly people there especially who have watched their church dwindle to a shadow of it's former membership.

I would send an email or call the pastor and say "we've been feeling a lot of pressure from X (elder) to participate in various church activities way beyond what we feel called to do. Then your sermon this week had me wondering if you are also trying to participate in this pressure? Maybe we're misreading so we wanted to check with you before jumping to conclusions."

 

If he replies that your feelings are correct; they believe you need to do more for the church and have in fact been trying to communicate this to you through the elder and the recent sermons, thank him for clarifying his position and move on. If he answers that he has no idea what you're talking about, you can apologize for the misunderstanding and ask him to speak to the elder and tone him down.

 

I like this way of stating the situation, should dh decide that is what he will do.

[Ellie]

I would leave this church without fuss, confrontation, or drama.

 

I also suggest you read a book about spiritual abuse before you decide on another church.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[justasque]

I want to add, too that our pastor made the statement today, that being sick or tired is not a reason to fore-go serving in the church.

 

This would be a deal-breaker for me. For a congregation of elders and young mothers/fathers, it's a potentially dangerous message. One could certainly communicate a similar message - our church is so grateful for the efforts put forth by so many in the congregation - while still expressing respect for those who must withdraw for a time to rest, to heal, or to focus on other callings. The church is asking for something you cannot give without harming yourself and your family. They are not respecting your roles as parents to your children, as children of your aging parents, as neighbors and community members. They are not holding you up and supporting you as you find God's calling in your lives at this time, which should be a basic function of a church community. There are other churches. It won't hurt to spend a bit of time looking at a few.

[LarlaB]

My dh is a pastor. I cannot tell you the number of times that someone has had a big emotional reaction to something from his Sunday teaching that they thought he was directly aiming at them- and he wasn't. Sometimes the source was honest conviction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it was harbored hurts that were festering.

 

I gotta tell you, you guys are really worked up, and yet your only evidence that they are mad at you comes from assumptions that you are drawing out of his sermon. You need to have a DIRECT conversation with a pastor. No more of this "silent forgiving." It's not healthy. You might find out that the devil is totally playing you, and that your feelings of being judged aren't true, but lies being whispered in your ears. If you don't have a honest to goodness direct conversation with someone, you'll never know. You might be surprised at the amount of healing that could come from it.

 

My DH is a former pastor and I have a similar viewpoint to Shannon...please don't build a huge case, leave the church, vent to others without having a direct, honest conversation with those involved. Speak from the heart, not from defensiveness or guilt, and then after seeing the response decide what to do.

 

And gently, you chose to place yourself in a church that is 30 minutes away- don't blame the church for its location. ;) If its too far away for you to stay connected, then find somewhere closer.

 

I just read your previous post...and wanted to comment about the elder who invites/seeks after you. To me it sounds like he really values your participation and as a non-parent does not have the perspective of what family life is all about, particularly w/ chronic illness. Its not controlling, unhealthy or insensitive to want to have people involved (particularly if this is a predominantly elderly church- they are likely starving for volunteers/able bodied help). I'm not saying I'd like to sit through multiple sermons on volunteering, be on the receiving end of the phone calls for help etc,:tongue_smilie: but having been in a position of leadership I will say it can be more challenging than you'd think to get the help/involvement you need as a church leader- and to help build community for those who are not tethered in.... people are busy & lives are full, most church leaders get that, but want people to trully be grafted into fellowship as well, so that when hard times come, there is something to cling too.

 

 

I don't think it would be fair to leave a church you otherwise love without confirming that the pressure you are *feeling* is actually what they intend. I also wouldn't want to have a big confrontation. I don't know about "stirring things up" -- I don't know what that means or why it would have to become a big church event? (I also wasn't familiar with "silent forgiveness" so I am not terribly knowledgeable apparently!)

 

I would send an email or call the pastor and say "we've been feeling a lot of pressure from X (elder) to participate in various church activities way beyond what we feel called to do. Then your sermon this week had me wondering if you are also trying to participate in this pressure? Maybe we're misreading so we wanted to check with you before jumping to conclusions."

 

If he replies that your feelings are correct; they believe you need to do more for the church and have in fact been trying to communicate this to you through the elder and the recent sermons, thank him for clarifying his position and move on. If he answers that he has no idea what you're talking about, you can apologize for the misunderstanding and ask him to speak to the elder and tone him down.

 

Great approach on how to handle it - very realistic, IMHO.

Edited July 9, 2012 by LarlaB

[Impish]

There's a quote from Anne of Igleside(I've been reading it the past few days) that leapt to mind reading your op.

"If a minister preaches a sermon that hits home to some particular individual people alway suppose he meant it for that very person," said Anne. "A hand me down cap is bound to fit somebody's head but it doesn't follow that it was made for him."

 

It could simply have been his attempt to get more ppl involved, regardless of age, etc.

 

I want to add, too that our pastor made the statement today, that being sick or tired is not a reason to fore-go serving in the church.

Now that would tick me off. Not exactly tending to his flock, is he, demanding that ppl show up regardless of their health issues?