Christians and those against abortion: ectopic pregnancy question

[Homemaker]

A friend of a friend recently had an ectopic pregnacy and that has me thinking... I am not sure what I would do if I had an ectopic pregnancy (which can't happen, husband and I are fixed). I am not sure I could terminate the pregnancy. I know they say the mother's life is at risk, but it is a baby, right? I honestly don't know what I would do. I think I would try my best to put it in God's hands and pray for a miracle so I could be aroud for my husband and other children. I would hopefully accept that I might die, but anyways, I don't know... Just thinking and not judging those who have been in the situation.

[k2bdeutmeyer]

Well considering I have three kids here already that need me, the risk of bleeding to death should the tube rupture just wouldn't be worth it to me. For the record, I am anti-abortion Christian, and would not consider this to be in the same category as a regular abortion.

 

:iagree: 110%

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, if the tube is allowed to rupture, it really is very dangerous for the mother.

 

It does feel like a terrible thing to do, to kill the baby, essentially, but it is hard to see a better option. Doing nothing is making a choice as well. To me it is a bit like a situation where you go to war. It is a bad thing, but sometimes it is better than the alternative. In this case it isn't caused by some willful failures like a war is, but it is a result of fallen creation.

 

I think the best thing is to make the choice, but to do so with the gravity it deserves. I find the usual Catholic theologians' approach useful, though I think the theology is actually a bit off. But psychologically it is sound. They allow the tube with the embryo to be removed, but not a drug to destry and expel the embryo itself. I think that it is much easier to remove the embryo, which will result in its death, while keeping in mind that it is a real human being, and treating it as such. It is parallel to delivering a third trimester baby early due to mom's health issues when you know it is a real risk to the baby.

[*Michelle*]

I'm Catholic and would follow the Church's teaching:

 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0140.htm

[Butter]

Assuming ectopic in a tube (ectopic actually means anywhere outside the uterus and very, very rarely some of those survive), the baby will die once it grows large enough to rupture the tube. When the tube ruptures, the mother could bleed to death. It's not like a typical abortion.

[Scuff]

I'm pro-life. Won't even get an iUD because of how it works. (expelling a fertilized egg) But I would not hesitate to have surgery if I had an eCtopic. Yes it's a baby. Of course I would be devistated. But it's different than an abortion. This baby will not live. It can't. And I very well could die without the surgery. I've read an article where a baby lived to term in the tube. But the mother never had pain and didn't know it was in the tube. If you're having pain, I would assume you're not going to have a miracle ft pregnancy.

[regentrude]

It is a baby that has (almost- with very very rare exceptions) no chance to survive to term. Without medical intervention, either the body takes care of it by letting it die naturally, or the mother dies.

If medical intervention can save the life of the mother, I tend to think that God would want that. At least the kind God I believe in.

[SKL]

I am pro-life. But in that case, baby is almost certain to die anyway. In my opinion, there is no virtue in greatly risking the mother's life and health to give a baby a minute chance of life in the case of a tubal pregnancy.

[Mergath]

I'm Catholic and would follow the Church's teaching:

 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0140.htm

 

I read this twice, and I still can't get my mind around how removing a small part of the tube is immoral, but removing the entire tube is okay. :confused:

[CroppinIt]

I am pro-life and would have a hard time with the emotions of this situation. The logic, though, is pretty clear.

 

In this case, the child has absolutely no chance of being carried to term. That life is, regrettably, already lost.

 

The mother's life will be in danger if the tube ruptures and she bleeds to death. Her life is in danger, but not lost.

 

The way I see it, either one person will die or two people will die. In that case, I would make absolutely certain that the baby was 100% no-chance-to-live, in the tube, but in the end I would have to have the surgery because my earthly children need their mother.

[BigMamaBird]

Well considering I have three kids here already that need me, the risk of bleeding to death should the tube rupture just wouldn't be worth it to me. For the record, I am anti-abortion Christian, and would not consider this to be in the same category as a regular abortion.

 

:iagree:

 

Exactly this.

[*Michelle*]

I read this twice, and I still can't get my mind around how removing a small part of the tube is immoral, but removing the entire tube is okay. :confused:

 

The two unacceptable options are methotrexate and opening the tube and removing the embryo. The acceptable one is removal of the tube itself.

 

With the first two, the condition is treated through the direct killing of human life. With the third, the condition is treated by removing the pathological tissue of the tube. The loss of human life still occurs, but it's secondary to the treatment needed.

 

It's a fine line, but like it says:

We may never directly take the life of an innocent human being, though we may sometimes tolerate the indirect and unintended loss of life that comes with trying to properly address a life-threatening medical situation.

[StaceyinLA]

I am staunchly pro-life. I had emergency surgery with the first because the tube was bulging and on the verge of rupture. I was in so much pain I couldn't stand up.

 

The last 3 (which happened within a 9-month period of time), were caught in time to be stopped with methotrexate (though one of those was painful enough to cause an ER visit - they were just able to handle it without surgery). I see that this is not an acceptable method, but the doctors were attempting least invasive options. I bawled the first time and told the doctor that there was no way I could take a pill to kill my baby, viable or not. Of course, it was an injection that the doctor gave, but I cried uncontrollably every time. Each was an emotionally devastating event that wreaked havoc on my mental state, which was why, at the end of that 9 months, I had the doctor remove my tubes so I could not conceive again.

 

An ectopic pregnancy is NOT a viable pregnancy. When hcg levels rise then drop, and rise very erratically, you do not have a viable pregnancy. With the exception of the near rupture, my levels were followed every other day for more than a week before any type of decision was made. These babies could NOT have survived, and my life was at risk each time.

Edited April 25, 2012 by StaceyinLA

[ktgrok]

The baby won't live regardless, outside of the womb. So you'd be risking your life without any chance of saving the baby. Where is the sense in that? I cant' imagine Jesus would approve.

 

Also, Catholic doctrine (and this makes sense to me) says you can't do something to purposely abort a child, but if the mother needs medical treatment that has a side effect of ending the pregnancy, that is ok. This seems like a good thing to me.

[Bluegoat]

I read this twice, and I still can't get my mind around how removing a small part of the tube is immoral, but removing the entire tube is okay. :confused:

 

The logic, which I think is off myself, is that in actually removing the baby without the tube, when you know the baby will die, you are directly killing it, just as if you had ejected someone into space.

 

When they remove the tube, they say that the goal is in fact to remove the compromised tube, and the fact that the embryo is inside it is just an unfortunate accident of sorts. Killing the baby is an unintended consequence of removing the damaged tube.

 

I think that it is logical mumbo-jumbo myself - it works by very carefully redefining the goal of the procedure and separating the effect (damaged tube) from the cause (misplaced embryo) so it falls under double effect.

 

All this being said, there isn't actually a single universal Catholic teaching on this - Catholic theologian have a few different approaches. I am not sure if any will allow the drug approach, but some thing direct removal of the embryo is ok, while at the other end of the spectrum the most conservative moral theologians will not allow for anything at all to be done until a rupture happens.

 

Most Catholic hospitals seem to take the approach of tube removal though.

[Mergath]

The logic, which I think is off myself, is that in actually removing the baby without the tube, when you know the baby will die, you are directly killing it, just as if you had ejected someone into space.

 

When they remove the tube, they say that the goal is in fact to remove the compromised tube, and the fact that the embryo is inside it is just an unfortunate accident of sorts. Killing the baby is an unintended consequence of removing the damaged tube.

 

I think that it is logical mumbo-jumbo myself - it works by very carefully redefining the goal of the procedure and separating the effect (damaged tube) from the cause (misplaced embryo) so it falls under double effect.

 

All this being said, there isn't actually a single universal Catholic teaching on this - Catholic theologian have a few different approaches. I am not sure if any will allow the drug approach, but some thing direct removal of the embryo is ok, while at the other end of the spectrum the most conservative moral theologians will not allow for anything at all to be done until a rupture happens.

 

Most Catholic hospitals seem to take the approach of tube removal though.

 

Huh. I guess my issue is that I would think that, given you know the baby is going to die either way, you'd want to go with the procedure that would maintain the highest level of fertility for the woman.

[Homemaker]

Hereis an interesting article that I found http://inashoe.com/2008/06/ectopic-pregnancy-and-the-sanctity-of-life/

[Bluegoat]

Huh. I guess my issue is that I would think that, given you know the baby is going to die either way, you'd want to go with the procedure that would maintain the highest level of fertility for the woman.

 

I think they would say that even if you know someone is going to die, for sure, you can't kill them, even if it has real benefits for other people. In a case, for example, where there was limited medical care available, while triage is appropriate, you can't kill the dying even if it means freeing up space or drugs or hands for someone else who needs help.

[mom2scouts]

The baby will not survive an ectopic pregnancy and it's very likely that the mother will die too. BTW, I'm very much against abortion, but I think this is a different case.

[nova147]

Huh. I guess my issue is that I would think that, given you know the baby is going to die either way, you'd want to go with the procedure that would maintain the highest level of fertility for the woman.

 

That assumes the goal is a high level of fertility. But it's not - the goal is to respect the sanctity of life. I've never heard of opening the tube and removing the embryo. But I knew tube removal was considered the only appropriate action.

 

The Church uses the principle of double effect. It is also used to explain why the pill is acceptable as a treatment for hormonally based problems. The infertility caused by the pill is not the goal, just a side effect.

[leeannpal]

I think it is abhorrent to compare an ectopic pregnancy to a typical abortion. I'm very pro life and almost died due to a ruptured ectopic. Without emergency surgery., I would have died. It never occurred to me that people would consider a medical condition that is certainly not a choice of the mother to be the same as an abortion. My ectopic pregnancy was very much wanted and we were devastated at the loss of our first child.

[StaceyinLA]

They were devastating to me. I always thought about what would happen if nothing was done, but the doctors really don't encourage waiting it out, and when you are in that moment where they are pressing you for a decision, you're not really able to think clearly and rationally.

[DianeW88]

I find absolutely nothing virtuous or moral about willfully putting your life in danger when you are currently a mother to living children who need you to raise them.

 

An ectopic pregnancy is NOT the same as an abortion and the procedure necessary to end it will preserve your life. It's a no-brainier choice for me. I take my sacred role as my children's mother very seriously, and playing games with the inevitable outcome of an ectopic pregnancy would feel like I was trivializing that calling in my life. Not something I could ever do.

Edited April 25, 2012 by DianeW88
spelling...grrrr

[SunnyDays]

I find absolutely nothing virtuous or moral about willfully putting your life in danger when you are currently a mother to living children who need you to raise them.

 

An ectopic pregnancy is NOT the same as an abortion and the procedure necessary to end it will preserve your life. It's a no-brainier choice for me. I take my sacred role as my children's mother very seriously, and playing games with the enevitable outcome of an ectopic pregnancy would feel like I was trivializing that calling in my life. Not something I could ever do.

 

 

I agree with this 100%.

[5kidsforME]

I pray I never have to make that decision and I will never judge another womans decision on this topic.

[Liz CA]

Not only would your life be at risk but the embryo could not develop.

I am pro-life but an ectopic pregnancy - from what I learned - is not a sustainable pregnancy and it threatens the mother's life, therefore I don't consider it an abortion the way we usually define abortion.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Liz CA

[Forget-Me-Not]

I find absolutely nothing virtuous or moral about willfully putting your life in danger when you are currently a mother to living children who need you to raise them.

 

An ectopic pregnancy is NOT the same as an abortion and the procedure necessary to end it will preserve your life. It's a no-brainier choice for me. I take my sacred role as my children's mother very seriously, and playing games with the enevitable outcome of an ectopic pregnancy would feel like I was trivializing that calling in my life. Not something I could ever do.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Haiku]

Ectopic pregnancies aren't viable. The baby wouldn't survive.

 

Tara

[Melissa in Australia]

I pray I never have to make that decision and I will never judge another womans decision on this topic.

:iagree:

I have been pregnant twice since having my tubes tied, I have also had one tube rupture when my clip broke through it. Believe me it was the most painful thing I have ever experienced. I remember waking up DH telling him that I thought I was going to die.

 

I hope I never have a tubal, I don't think I could go through with getting it removed.

I have heard many many stories of ectopic pregnancies going far enough along for the baby to survive.

[Meriwether]

One life is already forfeit. It would be much harder for me to choose a medical procedure to save my own life that could harm or kill a baby that would otherwise live.

[happyhomemaker25]

I cant believe this is even a topic. I am super conservative, but when I had a bulgy tube on the verge of rupture at 10w I never even hesitated. I do sometimes struggle with the fact my baby had a heartbeat. I miss my little one who was due Easter weekend every day.

I would have done just about anything to save my tube, but it was too far gone and I lost it. Now, I spend most days praying for another baby. I take a test on the first day of a missed cycle cause you can be darn skippy sure I want to do whatever I can to preserve my other tube.

[Mommy22alyns]

I cant believe this is even a topic.

 

 

:iagree:

[Marie131]

I cant believe this is even a topic. I am super conservative, but when I had a bulgy tube on the verge of rupture at 10w I never even hesitated. I do sometimes struggle with the fact my baby had a heartbeat. I miss my little one who was due Easter weekend every day.

I would have done just about anything to save my tube, but it was too far gone and I lost it. Now, I spend most days praying for another baby. I take a test on the first day of a missed cycle cause you can be darn skippy sure I want to do whatever I can to preserve my other tube.

 

:grouphug: I can't imagine. I am so sorry for your loss.

[BakersDozen]

When hcg levels rise then drop, and rise very erratically, you do not have a viable pregnancy. With the exception of the near rupture, my levels were followed every other day for more than a week before any type of decision was made.

 

My OB told me this, my OB's nurse told me this, everyone told me this. My hcg level dropped, came back up, rose but not quite enough...it was crazy. I was pressured to have surgery to "find the baby" and angered my OB greatly when I asked for just one more day, one more blood draw. Turns out I was losing my now 11 yo's twin. To this day I get teary-eyed at what might have been done had I not insisted on waiting just 24 hours longer. I know my situation is not the norm yet my point is that I agree that funky hcg levels/rises need to be monitored carefully before taking steps such as my OB wanted to take.

 

1.5 years later my hcg levels were wonky again, rising but not enough, and I had pain. My OB ignored my concerns and grudgingly ordered hcg testing but did not put a STAT on the order. I lost my tube.

 

Ectopic pregnancies are horrible because the loss never stops for those who have lost their fallopian tube. Our risk is higher for subsequent ectopics even in the other tube, we endure blood draws every other day for several weeks until u/s can visualize a viable pregnancy, and we live in fear when we see two pink lines on the test that things will end the same way.

 

Treating an ectopic pregnancy is not the same as abortion. Not even close. Knowing you are about to lose your baby and possibly part of your reproductive system is devastating and, if you are anything like me, part of you wants to die, to not wake up from the surgery because you don't know how your heart can handle the grief. Then after the surgery your heart is slammed over and over as you hear of women getting their tubes tied and you want to scream at them, scream at God, scream at the entire world how unfair life is. Over ten years later I still have to walk away to hide my tears when I hear someone talk about having their tubes tied...it's just too hard.

[Holly IN]

I had an ectopic preganancy. The baby was killing me and also dieing as well. DEF. against abortion in all forms as was my own dr that had to terminate the pregnancy. He was in tears before my own surgery to save my life. No baby can survive the pregnancy unless it was caught in time. Sadly mine should have been caught and transplanted but the stupid ole nurse thought my numbers doubled even though I told her my ob needs to know the numbers ASAP as it did not double. She was adamant it did. Found out later the nurse got fired and rebuked big time for not reporting to my own ob my numbers never doubled.

 

So I wouldn't be alive today if my own OB didn't intervene. He said the baby was not alive when he went in.

 

This is a very touchy subject so....I actually felt the pain of death. Never want to experience it again even though we are not practicing bc. I haven't been able to get pregnant after that. This pregnancy hit my dh very very hard because we had to stop the pregnancy.

 

So not very happy with the turnout but very glad to be alive with the chidlren I have.

 

So NO I do not lump Ectopic Preg. with abortion!! I find it very offensive that some do believe ecotpic removal is same as abortion.

 

My family is so thankful to God I am alive today. Before my emergency surgery of the ectopic, I made sure the dr's know beyound resonable doubht the baby is not in uterus. They couldn't find baby anyway but in tube. I had the most horrible pain I never ever had before surgery even morphine didn't numb the pain. I was rushed to OR for immediate removal of baby and tube. I was devasted as was my dh and my parents. Believe me this is not in same category as abortion!!!!!

 

 

 

Holly

 

Holly

Edited April 25, 2012 by Holly IN

[Holly IN]

.

 

Ectopic pregnancies are horrible because the loss never stops for those who have lost their fallopian tube. Our risk is higher for subsequent ectopics even in the other tube, we endure blood draws every other day for several weeks until u/s can visualize a viable pregnancy, and we live in fear when we see two pink lines on the test that things will end the same way.

 

Treating an ectopic pregnancy is not the same as abortion. Not even close. Knowing you are about to lose your baby and possibly part of your reproductive system is devastating and, Over ten years later I still have to walk away to hide my tears when I hear someone talk about having their tubes tied...it's just too hard.

 

Bolded prints AMEN!! If I am even less than a week late I have to rush to ob for blood draw to see if I am pregnant then go for blood draw every two days to check HCG levels. At this point only my ob is allowed to view the results not the nurse. Yes I am at risk for ectopic again. yes I cry when somebody is wanting a tubal ligation. :grouphug:

 

 

 

Holly

[Jpoy85]

:ohmy: at this topic. I cant say what Id do. Anyone can say " Id do ______" when it comes down to it, you just dont know what you may choose to do in the moment.

[Impish]

I've had an ectopic.

 

Long story short, I was starting to rupture as they were performing the surgery.

 

There was no way to save the baby. I asked. The only question was if I was going to die as well.

 

Comparing an ectopic to a chosen abortion is extremely hurtful and offensive.

 

I still mourn that lost child.

[6packofun]

Over ten years later I still have to walk away to hide my tears when I hear someone talk about having their tubes tied...it's just too hard.

 

Why? Because it simply reminds you of what happened to *you* or because you think it's sad that anyone would make that choice?

[Carrie12345]

I am not anti-choice or Christian, but I did have a ruptured ectopic. By the time I got into surgery, I had a liter of blood in my abdomen.

 

The thought of intentionally leaving my (then) four children motherless in favor of an unviable pregnancy makes my stomach turn.

[Aelwydd]

I'm not sure from your title if you are only interested in hearing from Christians who are against any and all abortion. I am Christian, and I'm conditionally pro-choice. I consider abortion to be the end of a human life, whether it's spontaneous or induced, and so something never to be treated lightly.

 

When discussing this here and in certain other venues where precision is very important, I call it an abortion, because that's what it is, medically speaking. An abortion is any termination of a pregnancy before viability, including miscarriages. Whatever the legal/political definition many attach to it, this is its actual meaning.

 

I tend to put ectopic pregnancy in the "spontaneous abortion" category, because the condition is essentially one incompatible with life, 99% of the time, and must be expelled. Often, the woman's body will accomplish this all by itself.

 

Ectopic pregnancy is one of several very serious conditions that can arise, and as such, is one I do most definitely consider no-contest grounds for induced abortion, if it does not self-resolve.

[Laurie4b]

Why? Because it simply reminds you of what happened to *you* or because you think it's sad that anyone would make that choice?

 

Did you mean this question as a challenge? It seems that when someone has just expressed grief over loss of that magnitude, to put the adjective "simply" in front of "reminds you of what happened" (the death of her child and a loss to fertility) is insensitive. What happened wasn't a minor thing. Not sure why you starred the word you, either. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but your question sounds more like a challenge.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Laurie4b

[Aelwydd]

It seems that when someone has just expressed grief at the loss of a child and the loss of potential fertility, to put the adjective "simply" in front of "reminds you of what happened" and to star the word *you* is insensitive.

 

I don't think she meant it like that. I took it to indicate an obvious, uncomplicated meaning versus a more complicated, layered one. TBH, when I read Luvn's post, I was taken aback at first as well, because I wasn't sure which one she meant. I figured she was simply [read: only] talking about her own feelings, and not referring to any projected judgment of others. But, the ambivalent wording can lead one to think the latter.

 

6pack was asking for clarification before making assumptions; I don't think she should be scolded for that.

[BakersDozen]

Why? Because it simply reminds you of what happened to *you* or because you think it's sad that anyone would make that choice?

My feelings are for what happened to me; I lost my tube not by choice and so when I hear of someone having a tubal ligation by choice it affects me. I don't judge them, however because of what happened to me I am affected emotionally, especially if the procedure is talked of lightly. Unfortunately, just 3 weeks after my ectopic I was asked to set up meals for a young mom who had a tubal scheduled. I couldn't do it. If that makes me a dreadful person then so be it, but at the time my grief both of the current situation and for the affect it would have on my future was too great; being asked to help someone who was about to willingly undergo surgery that I had grievously come through was too much (and I'm still appalled that I was approached at all given the circustances).

 

I hope that makes sense. I don't walk around scowling or condemning those who choose a tubal ligation, yet my heart does take a hit.

[lionfamily1999]

My feelings are for what happened to me; I lost my tube not by choice and so when I hear of someone having a tubal ligation by choice it affects me. I don't judge them, however because of what happened to me I am affected emotionally, especially if the procedure is talked of lightly. Unfortunately, just 3 weeks after my ectopic I was asked to set up meals for a young mom who had a tubal scheduled. I couldn't do it. If that makes me a dreadful person then so be it, but at the time my grief both of the current situation and for the affect it would have on my future was too great; being asked to help someone who was about to willingly undergo surgery that I had grievously come through was too much (and I'm still appalled that I was approached at all given the circustances).

 

I hope that makes sense. I don't walk around scowling or condemning those who choose a tubal ligation, yet my heart does take a hit.

:grouphug: I get it. It's the same way someone with any fertility issue feels when they see it taken for granted by someone else. :grouphug:

[LizzyBee]

I am pro-life, but I don't even consider an ectopic pregnancy to be in the same category as an elective abortion. I have no moral misgivings at all about taking whatever steps are necessary to preserve the mother's health and life in that situation.

[Parrothead]

I pray I never have to make that decision and I will never judge another womans decision on this topic.

:iagree:Since the theologians can't agree I think this is something that must be decided as a do-what-one-must-do-so-as-to-be-able-to-live-with-oneself.

 

Also I would not equate making a decision about treatment of a tubal pregnancy with a selective abortion. IMNSHO it is a case of apples and oranges.

[Mergath]

That assumes the goal is a high level of fertility. But it's not - the goal is to respect the sanctity of life. I've never heard of opening the tube and removing the embryo. But I knew tube removal was considered the only appropriate action.

 

The Church uses the principle of double effect. It is also used to explain why the pill is acceptable as a treatment for hormonally based problems. The infertility caused by the pill is not the goal, just a side effect.

 

I understand the logic now. Still, my own opinion would be that doing the procedure that has the best chance of allowing the mother to create life in the future does just as much to respect the sanctity of life, given that the end result of the ectopic pregnancy is the same either way.

 

Of course, as a pro-choice Pagan, I'm not exactly the target audience for this question. :tongue_smilie:

[Soror]

I am Catholic and am in line with the Church's teaching in heart and mind. I don't even see a comparison and would think it quite hurtful for those who have went through an ectopic pregnancy.

[nova147]

I understand the logic now. Still, my own opinion would be that doing the procedure that has the best chance of allowing the mother to create life in the future does just as much to respect the sanctity of life, given that the end result of the ectopic pregnancy is the same either way.

 

Of course, as a pro-choice Pagan, I'm not exactly the target audience for this question. :tongue_smilie:

 

I totally see your logic!