WWYD: Sunday school paranoia

[shinyhappypeople]

My church has instituted a new policy. Yesterday was the first day of the new regime.

 

 

The old policy was this: parents take their child directly to their room and sign them in and out. I usually said hi to the helpers. I knew them and they knew me. Volunteers are well-screened (background check, Megan's Law, references). Life is good. No problems. But the new director comes on board and I guess she felt the need to improve things. :tongue_smilie:

 

New policy: The children are locked into the children's wing (there's a door that leads to a long hall. The Sunday school rooms are on that hall. Make sense?) . No one (even parents) are allowed in that wing during services. We sign them in/out in a large room at the entrance to the children's wing and receive a color-coded card that indicates how many kids we dropped off.

 

We are not allowed to see inside the classroom. There are a lot of volunteers I haven't met before. We're not introduced to our child's leader (different from before, I think... but, then again, I really have no way of knowing). Parents can't stay unless they're trained, screened volunteers.

 

After the parents are gone, the kids are escorted as a group to their actual SS rooms by their teacher or a helper.

 

Check out procedure is this: turn in your color-coded card. The same parent that dropped the child off, MUST be the one to pick them up. No exceptions. Sorry dad, you can't help out mom by picking up the kids while she chats with a friend after service. Its' inconvenient, isolating, STUPID, unnecessary and feeds into our culture of fear.

 

Anyway, all this is for the kids' "safety."

 

It took everything in me not to laugh squarely in the Sunday School director's face when she told me this. Exactly how scary does she think the world is? How is locking kids away from their parents safe? In churches, kids are most likely to be abused (not just s*xual abuse) by trusted adults (pastors, SS teachers, etc.). How is it SAFER for me to not have the opportunity to meet my DD's SS teacher or observe a class if I feel like it? It also galls me to know that DD is developing relationship with adults that I've never seen, much less met.

 

(Note: in situations where kids DO require extra safety, for example during a custody dispute, why not just have the parent speak with the child's SS teacher directly and explain his/her concerns?)

 

I want to write a letter expressing just how utterly NUTS this is, but I'm not sure how to say it. Please help.

 

By the way, the new powers that be like to use the phrase "partnering with parents" when explaining the decisions they've made (even though they never asked for any parental feedback or suggestions at all before changing things.). The only thing I can think to say is (with apologies to Inigo Montoya - I think) "You keep using that word "partnership." I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

WWYD? Would you write a letter? Quietly leave? Suck it up and do nothing? If you'd speak up, what would you say?

Edited April 16, 2012 by shinyhappypeople

[catz]

I would not like that AT ALL! Our church's policy is just like your previous policy and it works perfectly well (minimum 2 background checked adults per classroom of kids). I would not like being able to chat with my kid's RE teachers (which are often friends anyway) about what happened that day and get a little feedback. I think I'd talk to or write a formal letter to a few people in your church. That seems ridiculous to me.

[QuirkyKapers]

Wow! The first thing that popped in my mind is if the kids are locked in, is there a quick way they can get out in case of fire. I have been at a church that did that, parents were not allowed back in the kids area. I didn't like it. They said it was too hard to have parents coming back because some kids didn't separate well from parents and it created chaos with other kids.

 

I would write a letter. Is this a trial basis and than they are going to get parent feedback? Maybe find that out. It would be good to know if they were planning on getting parental feedback after trying the program out.

[*Michelle*]

Unless my kid is being wheeled through the OR doors for surgery, I'm not putting them anywhere that prohibits me from seeing them in that environment whenever I choose. I would definitely be writing a letter, in the least, and leaving if I were told the changes would remain in effect.

 

I would probably start the conversation by asking what the specific complaints were regarding the previous system.

[JudoMom]

My church has instituted a new policy. Yesterday was the first day of the new regime.

 

 

The old policy was this: parents take their child directly to their room and sign them in and out. I usually said hi to the helpers. I knew them and they knew me. Volunteers are well-screened (background check, Megan's Law, references). Life is good. No problems. But the new director comes on board and I guess she felt the need to improve things. :tongue_smilie:

 

New policy: The children are locked into the children's wing (there's a door that leads to a long hall. The Sunday school rooms are on that hall. Make sense?) . No one (even parents) are allowed in that wing during services. We sign them in/out in a large room at the entrance to the children's wing and receive a color-coded card that indicates how many kids we dropped off.

 

We are not allowed to see inside the classroom. There are a lot of volunteers I haven't met before. We're not introduced to our child's leader (different from before, I think... but, then again, I really have no way of knowing). Parents can't stay unless they're trained, screened volunteers.

 

After the parents are gone, the kids are escorted as a group to their actual SS rooms by their teacher or a helper.

 

Check out procedure is this: turn in your color-coded card. The same parent that dropped the child off, MUST be the one to pick them up. No exceptions. Sorry dad, you can't help out mom by picking up the kids while she chats with a friend after service. Its' inconvenient, isolating, STUPID, unnecessary and feeds into our culture of fear.

 

Anyway, all this is for the kids' "safety."

 

It took everything in me not to laugh squarely in the Sunday School director's face when she told me this. Exactly how scary does she think the world is? How is locking kids away from their parents safe? In churches, kids are most likely to be abused (not just s*xual abuse) by trusted adults (pastors, SS teachers, etc.). How is it SAFER for me to not have the opportunity to meet my DD's SS teacher or observe a class if I feel like it? It also galls me to know that DD is developing relationship with adults that I've never seen, much less met.

 

(Note: in situations where kids DO require extra safety, for example during a custody dispute, why not just have the parent speak with the child's SS teacher directly and explain his/her concerns?)

 

I want to write a letter expressing just how utterly NUTS this is, but I'm not sure how to say it. Please help.

 

By the way, the new powers that be like to use the phrase "partnering with parents" when explaining the decisions they've made (even though they never asked for any parental feedback or suggestions at all before changing things.). The only thing I can think to say is (with apologies to Inigo Montoya - I think) "You keep using that word "partnership." I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

WWYD? Would you write a letter? Quietly leave? Suck it up and do nothing? If you'd speak up, what would you say?

 

I'd write a letter and not use Sunday School anymore. It's absurd. If I can't check on my kids directly and if I don't know who is taking care of them, they stay with me.

[ssavings]

Wow! That's crazy!

 

I think I'd not bring my DC. The idea of them being stuck with people I don't know and me not being able to check on them... Yikes. I'm too paranoid, I guess.

[shinyhappypeople]

I would not like that AT ALL! Our church's policy is just like your previous policy and it works perfectly well (minimum 2 background checked adults per classroom of kids). I would not like being able to chat with my kid's RE teachers (which are often friends anyway) about what happened that day and get a little feedback. I think I'd talk to or write a formal letter to a few people in your church. That seems ridiculous to me.

 

I forgot to add, the old policy did have the "2 adult" rule. And each room has windows you can see in from the hall. Except now, no one is allowed in the hall, so not sure how the windows constitute a safety feature anymore.

[SonshineLearner]

I would talk to the person higher up who's in charge. I would explain that I feel like it's best for my child to remain with the older routine of taking them to their class and greeting their teacher and helpers with them. I would share this information and then ask how we could come to a mutually satisfactory exchange. Then I would come to the end of that sentence and just wait..... (The first person to talk, loses.... that's the rule, right??!! :)) If that didn't work, and it might take a 5 minute wait.... which seems like a few lifetimes.. I'd go to the pastor... and if that doesn't work I'd have my kids sit in the service... (Is that allowed?)

[frugalmama]

Wow! The first thing that popped in my mind is if the kids are locked in, is there a quick way they can get out in case of fire. I have been at a church that did that, parents were not allowed back in the kids area. I didn't like it. They said it was too hard to have parents coming back because some kids didn't separate well from parents and it created chaos with other kids.

 

I would write a letter. Is this a trial basis and than they are going to get parent feedback? Maybe find that out. It would be good to know if they were planning on getting parental feedback after trying the program out.

 

:iagree:

 

Also - do they have a policy in place for if the parent who dropped them off CANNOT pick them up for whatever reason {like an emergency}? What happens then?

 

I wouldn't like this at all - My dd does not go out of my sight unless she is with a trusted adult who I have PERSONALLY discussed {and feel they understood} her multiple food allergies and contact allergies. If it were our church we'd skip sunday school and I'd have kids sit with me in the service instead.

[LaxMom]

No. No, NO, NO.

 

Nope, sorry, usurping my access to my children is NOT for their safety, it is to exert control. Not knowing the staff/volunteers is NOT safe (or reasonable). No, there is no "partnering with parents" going on there. No. Just no.

 

I would address it in our farewell letter. There is absolutely no way I would be ok with any organization whose leaders could make such bad decisions, whether they choose to correct them in response to complaints or not. In fact, I feel so strongly about wedging others between parents and children that I have been out of contact with my own mother for nearly two years due to her refusing to respect that boundary. (there is a long history of that and other boundary issues she ignores, but you get the point) Strangers? Good riddance.

Edited April 16, 2012 by MyCrazyHouse
Dear iPeople: "pond" and "long" are not the same.

[MindyD]

Um...no way would that work for me. At all. They've completely missed the point of church in my opinion. That would be a deal breaker for me at church personally. I'd have a meeting with whoever I was comfortable with and explain my feelings, then I'd leave. I wouldn't make a big deal about it to anyone else though. I'd only say the minimum to anyone that asked.

[PeacefulChaos]

My church has instituted a new policy. Yesterday was the first day of the new regime.

 

 

The old policy was this: parents take their child directly to their room and sign them in and out. I usually said hi to the helpers. I knew them and they knew me. Volunteers are well-screened (background check, Megan's Law, references). Life is good. No problems. But the new director comes on board and I guess she felt the need to improve things. :tongue_smilie:

 

New policy: The children are locked into the children's wing (there's a door that leads to a long hall. The Sunday school rooms are on that hall. Make sense?) . No one (even parents) are allowed in that wing during services. We sign them in/out in a large room at the entrance to the children's wing and receive a color-coded card that indicates how many kids we dropped off.

 

We are not allowed to see inside the classroom. There are a lot of volunteers I haven't met before. We're not introduced to our child's leader (different from before, I think... but, then again, I really have no way of knowing). Parents can't stay unless they're trained, screened volunteers.

 

After the parents are gone, the kids are escorted as a group to their actual SS rooms by their teacher or a helper.

 

Check out procedure is this: turn in your color-coded card. The same parent that dropped the child off, MUST be the one to pick them up. No exceptions. Sorry dad, you can't help out mom by picking up the kids while she chats with a friend after service. Its' inconvenient, isolating, STUPID, unnecessary and feeds into our culture of fear.

 

Anyway, all this is for the kids' "safety."

 

It took everything in me not to laugh squarely in the Sunday School director's face when she told me this. Exactly how scary does she think the world is? How is locking kids away from their parents safe? In churches, kids are most likely to be abused (not just s*xual abuse) by trusted adults (pastors, SS teachers, etc.). How is it SAFER for me to not have the opportunity to meet my DD's SS teacher or observe a class if I feel like it? It also galls me to know that DD is developing relationship with adults that I've never seen, much less met.

 

(Note: in situations where kids DO require extra safety, for example during a custody dispute, why not just have the parent speak with the child's SS teacher directly and explain his/her concerns?)

 

I want to write a letter expressing just how utterly NUTS this is, but I'm not sure how to say it. Please help.

 

By the way, the new powers that be like to use the phrase "partnering with parents" when explaining the decisions they've made (even though they never asked for any parental feedback or suggestions at all before changing things.). The only thing I can think to say is (with apologies to Inigo Montoya - I think) "You keep using that word "partnership." I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

WWYD? Would you write a letter? Quietly leave? Suck it up and do nothing? If you'd speak up, what would you say?

 

Most of this sounds pretty standard to me. I would love it. We have some similar policies - only parents can drop off/pick up children (no older siblings, etc), we are not supposed to be able to go in the children's wing until it's time to pick them up (though that one is hard to enforce :lol: ), and we can't really see in. I guess yours is probably a little over the top, BUT most likely it'll relax some.

For example, I drop off my kids at 9:15/9:30 for Sunday School... I have to check them in first (they all get tags with their names on them, the service date/time, a random 'family number', and their class - I get a 'parent sticker' that corresponds with their number), then I take DS6 and DD to their classes for Sunday School (DD is still in the nursery for SS, but will be moving up in May when she turns 3 - assuming she decides to be potty trained by then - to DS6's class - he'll be moving out this fall), which are both down the same hallway. Then I can either leave DS8 downstairs with the other kids in his class to be taken up by his teacher or I can take him up myself (which I usually do, since I'm headed that way anyway). I don't walk into any of their classrooms, just drop them off at the door. Days that I volunteer in the nursery, I stay in there until service starts. DS6 stays in the same room with the same teacher for service/children's church, starting at 10:30. DS8's teacher brings him downstairs, where he has kids church with grades 1-6. DD moves from the nursery to the 2 year old class (we have separate classes for nursery 0-2, 2 year olds, and 3 year olds). After service, we go downstairs and pick them up. It has to be either DH or I. They don't allow people into the nursery unless it's a nursing mom. They don't allow people into the classes at all, though I guess if they wanted to sit and observe one class they could - that could be kind of a disruption, though.

I've been to several churches that have various points of what you are describing. I've been to them where I had to go pick up DD because I was who dropped her off, etc. I really don't mind.

Anyway, all that to say, I think the policy sounds fine. As I said before, it will most likely relax a little over the next few weeks, and soon you'll be happy for it. :)

[Annie G]

Just when I think I've heard it all....wow, this is nuts. How exactly is this an improvement?

 

When our kids were little, we got to church, they all piled out and went to their rooms. After church, they all came and found us and we got in the car and went home. Wow. Have times changed. My daughter's church issued her a pager when her kids were young enough to be dropped off in the nursery. It looked just like the ones they use at the Olive Garden. Made me want salad and breadsticks.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Annie G

[Rebecca VA]

I can't imagine that this set-up would make children feel that they're in a loving church family. In fact, it's likely to give everyone the creeps.

 

Years ago I took my older child out of a gifted school that went overboard on its security policy. Parents were treated with suspicion every time they tried to visit the school or interact with staff. My second child is now in a different school, and the policy is so different. Parents are treated with the greatest respect and are welcomed onto the campus. Happiness just flows all around. That kind of feeling is even more necessary in a church, which is supposed to be modelling the love of Christ and the importance of family life.

 

If I were you, and I wanted to stay with that church, I would do a silent protest. I'd keep my children out of children's church and encourage other parents to do the same.

[PeacefulChaos]

So I just read the other replies (I didn't read any before replying myself) and Idk... I guess I just think it's a bit of an overreaction to throw a hissy fit or leave the church. :confused: Clearly they are doing what they think is best... and feedback would be a good thing, but leaving?

Also, I think not allowing parents to come back is a very.good.thing. It's a pain when parents think they need to check on their kids during service - trust me. First of all, it's only, what, an hour and a half maybe? (SS is only an hour). The kid will be fine. :rolleyes:

I've worked in the nursery for years and it drives me nuts when parents think they need to 'peek in' on their baby. Because babies do so great when their parents stick their head in and then leave again. :rolleyes: :glare: Or when they see them through the window, because most of them couldn't handle (the parents, I mean) just looking in real quick - no, they would stand there for 10 minutes UNTIL their kid saw them. Ugh. Just thinking about it annoys me...

As far as older kids go, I think it would be great to not bother them while they are learning. It could be incredibly disruptive to have people checking in on them all the time. Sometimes even someone walking by the window (or looking through it, hovering around it, etc) is enough to distract kids.

[Mimmy]

I would write a letter and keep my children with me. Have you read Protecting the Gift by Gavin DeBecker? It has some factual information on children's safety and some sample letters for dealing with schools. I think some of it may be useful to you or to the people who implemented this change.

[shinyhappypeople]

Most of this sounds pretty standard to me. I would love it. We have some similar policies - only parents can drop off/pick up children (no older siblings, etc), we are not supposed to be able to go in the children's wing until it's time to pick them up (though that one is hard to enforce :lol: ), and we can't really see in. I guess yours is probably a little over the top, BUT most likely it'll relax some.

For example, I drop off my kids at 9:15/9:30 for Sunday School... I have to check them in first (they all get tags with their names on them, the service date/time, a random 'family number', and their class - I get a 'parent sticker' that corresponds with their number), then I take DS6 and DD to their classes for Sunday School (DD is still in the nursery for SS, but will be moving up in May when she turns 3 - assuming she decides to be potty trained by then - to DS6's class - he'll be moving out this fall), which are both down the same hallway. Then I can either leave DS8 downstairs with the other kids in his class to be taken up by his teacher or I can take him up myself (which I usually do, since I'm headed that way anyway). I don't walk into any of their classrooms, just drop them off at the door. Days that I volunteer in the nursery, I stay in there until service starts. DS6 stays in the same room with the same teacher for service/children's church, starting at 10:30. DS8's teacher brings him downstairs, where he has kids church with grades 1-6. DD moves from the nursery to the 2 year old class (we have separate classes for nursery 0-2, 2 year olds, and 3 year olds). After service, we go downstairs and pick them up. It has to be either DH or I. They don't allow people into the nursery unless it's a nursing mom. They don't allow people into the classes at all, though I guess if they wanted to sit and observe one class they could - that could be kind of a disruption, though.

I've been to several churches that have various points of what you are describing. I've been to them where I had to go pick up DD because I was who dropped her off, etc. I really don't mind.

Anyway, all that to say, I think the policy sounds fine. As I said before, it will most likely relax a little over the next few weeks, and soon you'll be happy for it. :)

 

Kara I have no opportunity to know who my DD's teacher is. I have no opportunity to walk her to the room (verboten). We sign in and GO AWAY. No parents allowed anywhere for any reason (unless they're volunteering). I can't imagine ever feeling awesome about not knowing anything at all about the adults my DD is interacting with. I don't know their names, what they look like, nothing. The Sunday School director is the only staff member that doesn't have a bio on the church's web site. So, I know nothing about her, her background, whether she's married or has kids. Nothing. I just know that she's a control freak who's blocking my access to my child for "safety," thus making them less safe.

 

She needs to ride her crazy train right out of town and let a sane person take over her job.

[SKL]

Yuck. I just send my kids on their own to their Sunday School class as I go to mine. The teachers do make them wait for their parent to pick them up after. (They are 5.)

 

I think I'd walk my kids back at least the first time and meet the volunteers and so on until I was comfortable and my kids were comfortable. If they did not like it, they could throw me out, after which I'd explain why I was taking my kids to a different church. More likely they would put up with it or offer to have a meeting about it. After all, how many child-stealers have their own kids in tow while they do their dirty deeds in full view of a bunch of people? Millions, I'm sure.

[Anne in CA]

Well, I do not think this is an okay policy, but I know exactly why it is in place.

 

There are very slick people who steal money from churches claiming their child has been abused. They then threaten to sue the church but take a cash settlement. They lurk in halls by children's ministry waiting for something that they can misconstrue towards their child.

 

Our church put up security cameras to deal with this issue, which unfortunately is very real.

[shinyhappypeople]

Also, I'm not the type to "check in" on my kids (I've peeked through the window once or twice in 2 years because I happened to be passing by, kids didn't notice me, but it was fun getting a glimpse of their class).

[PeacefulChaos]

Kara I have no opportunity to know who my DD's teacher is. I have no opportunity to walk her to the room (verboten). We sign in and GO AWAY. No parents allowed anywhere for any reason (unless they're volunteering). I can't imagine ever feeling awesome about not knowing anything at all about the adults my DD is interacting with. I don't know their names, what they look like, nothing. The Sunday School director is the only staff member that doesn't have a bio on the church's web site. So, I know nothing about her, her background, whether she's married or has kids. Nothing. I just know that she's a control freak who's blocking my access to my child for "safety," thus making them less safe.

 

She needs to ride her crazy train right out of town and let a sane person take over her job.

 

Yeah, I get that. That's why I'm saying I really do think it will relax over the next few weeks - probably several people will complain and whatnot, and they may change the process a little.

How do you not know any of the adults?? Do you know people who know them? I mean, while it's true that in our church (which isn't real big, about 500ish I guess?) I don't know everyone, I can put faces with names on most people, and I know people who know them. I can find out about them if I feel I need to. I haven't known everyone who works with my kids, either. But I just trust that since they've done the background checks, gone through the RTR program, the children's pastor and/or whoever has vetted them and thinks they are all right, and not to mention they are never left alone with my kids anyway (always 2+, married couples don't count), that they're ok.

 

ETA: I wasn't trying to imply that you were one of the crazy 'check on their kids constantly' parents. I was just using it as an example of why rules like that need to be in place - to deter that sort of thing. :)

[athena1277]

It's supposed to be CHURCH, not a prison! That is totally ridiculous. I would be tempted to make a big scene about not being allowed to go see my children in class. Just to make everyone aware of what is going on. I wonder if the church leadership is too old to have kids in those classes and are not aware of how inappropriate the new rules are?

[Night Elf]

I agree that kids usually do better when parents don't hang around, but I completely disagree with their new policy. Not letting parents in means they have something to hide. Not having the right to speak to the teachers and find out what they are learning is not partnering with parents, it's separating children from the parents. I would request a church-wide survey from all parents asking their opinion about this policy. There are probably other parents who are not happy either.

 

As to leaving the church, part of what I liked about my church was the children's program. My dd loved being involved in all the fun parts of religious education. If I had to stop using the RE program, I would be losing a huge part of why I go to church. So yes, leaving would be my last resort if the policy wasn't loosened.

[swellmomma]

It's supposed to be CHURCH, not a prison! That is totally ridiculous. I would be tempted to make a big scene about not being allowed to go see my children in class. Just to make everyone aware of what is going on. I wonder if the church leadership is too old to have kids in those classes and are not aware of how inappropriate the new rules are?

 

:iagree:We haven't attended a church regularily since we moved but our old church, which was pretty big (2 separate services back to back with 1000+ adults in the seats, PLUS their kids, so big groups). We walked our kids up to the counter that was outside their room. Signed them in and updated the SS teachers of any problems and for kids under 3 we were given a pager that would vibrate if the child needed us (diaper change, cuddles, etc). WIth the school aged kids, as we signed them in, they usually ran off into the gym on their own with nary a hug good bye. For the bigs I would not be happy with the OP's policy but would be less likely to create a scene than if it was for one of the little ones under the age of 5, ESPECIALLY for the wee ones under 3 or so that could not verbalize to me what is happening in SS each week.

[PeacefulChaos]

Oh, and I forgot to add (again :lol: ) that I'm actually for the idea of parents not entering the area at all, whether dropping off, picking up, whatever. It just seems like it would run a lot more smoothly to have someone up front verifying who you are and who you are picking up, runners to get the kids and bring them to you, etc. It sounds dreamy to me. :D :lol:

[MindyD]

I don't check in on my kids either. I know that they're perfectly safe. I personally believe that church is about community, not separating everyone out into their own little groups. It's just way over the top for me and it shows a big enough difference in the "Whys" of church that I would consider it a deal breaker more than being restricted from my kids, who's teaching them, and what they're learning. Ultimately, I am responsible for their spiritual education, not the children's ministry. The ministry is certainly a help but I wouldn't let anyone else have that much control over such an important part of my kids' lives.

[Rivka]

Wow, that sounds crazy to me. Is this a very, very big church where it is not practical for parents, teachers, and teacher assistants to be known to one another? Has there been some kind of incident that has led to higher levels of safety concern?

 

I go to a small-to-medium-sized church with about 150 in attendance on Sunday morning. My kids each have 6-8 other kids in their Religious Education classes. I don't drop my daughter off (the children and teachers leave partway through the service, and she goes with her friends), but I always pick her up and admire the projects the kids worked on during class. I always drop my son off (or his father does) and pick him up. He's 3 years old - I want to show him who to ask if he needs to use the potty, and check in afterward to find out if he did well in class.

 

If our RE teachers are going to minister to my kids, they need to have relationships with me. Those casual exchanges of conversation at dropoff and pickup are so important. It's how I found out that my 6yo is still grieving the death of her grandfather. It's how my son's teachers know not to say "when you go to kindergarten on the school bus..." as if that applies to his whole group.

 

I also think it's important to build relationships between the families of kids who are in the same RE class. When there's a new child in one of my kids' classes, I can make a point of welcoming and encouraging that child's parents when I meet them at pickup time. If there's an issue between my child and another child, it helps a lot if I've chatted with that child's parents eight or nine times after class.

 

A church is supposed to be a community, not an institution with impersonal crowd-handling tactics. I would not go along with this.

[frugalmama]

So I just read the other replies (I didn't read any before replying myself) and Idk... I guess I just think it's a bit of an overreaction to throw a hissy fit or leave the church. :confused: Clearly they are doing what they think is best... and feedback would be a good thing, but leaving?

Also, I think not allowing parents to come back is a very.good.thing. It's a pain when parents think they need to check on their kids during service - trust me. First of all, it's only, what, an hour and a half maybe? (SS is only an hour). The kid will be fine. :rolleyes:

I've worked in the nursery for years and it drives me nuts when parents think they need to 'peek in' on their baby. Because babies do so great when their parents stick their head in and then leave again. :rolleyes: :glare: Or when they see them through the window, because most of them couldn't handle (the parents, I mean) just looking in real quick - no, they would stand there for 10 minutes UNTIL their kid saw them. Ugh. Just thinking about it annoys me...

As far as older kids go, I think it would be great to not bother them while they are learning. It could be incredibly disruptive to have people checking in on them all the time. Sometimes even someone walking by the window (or looking through it, hovering around it, etc) is enough to distract kids.

 

Sometimes parents have a valid reason to peek in - as in the case of my dd with ASD and multiple food and contact allergies. I want to KNOW if she's approaching a meltdown - I as her parent will recognize the symptoms before anyone else does and can avoid the worst of it by getting her out of the situation before it escalates. I'd rather her leave after 15 minutes before a meltdown happens than get the whole lesson but end up over stimulated and having a meltdown that will take us at least a day to recover from.

[Ellie]

I've seen this before, especially in very large churches. It doesn't bother me. I've been on the inside of the whole childcare/Sunday school thing before and I know what can happen if there isn't tight control.

[mom4him]

Possibly let me give you the other side. When I was director of the nursery I instigated some of the same things. Not quite as strict but close.

Parent(guardian) brought child to the nursery(they could see in and anyone that was working in there that day), they signed the child in and received a tag. I didn't require that the same person come get the child but I did require that the person that did come for the child had to have the tag.

 

We did not allow parents to be in the nursery. If they wanted to 'work' in the nursery they needed to be scheduled as such. If they wanted to be with their child there was a cry room they could use.

 

Some of the reasons for this were:

1. We had visitors that would want to be in the nursery with there child. Some of them were....umm.... unusual individuals and I had my hands full supervising the children. I did not want to have to supervise the adults that I had no back ground info on.

 

2. We had 7-14 yr olds coming and picking up babies/toddler, turning them loose and in possible danger as they could easily get out the door, fall down the stairs, get stepped on. If a parent chose to give the card to their 7 yr old to pick up the baby that was their choice but I then knew that the parent was aware that the said 7 yr old had been given the child.

 

3. At different times we had young couples that did not have a stable marriage. At one time one couple was constantly in a state of breaking up, getting together, breaking up with threats of I will steal this child or that child, getting back together......get the picture. I did not want to hand a child over to an unstable, possibly intoxicated parent. With this policy in place I had the right to refuse giving the child over if the adult didn't have the tag.

 

Believe me when we started I had MAD parents. I was an extremist, I was instilling fear, etc. No I was not only protecting the child but the workers. Once everyone became accustom to it all was well.

 

If you think some of it is to much or you do not feel comfortable with it go talk to the director or your pastor.

[61Keys]

I will NEVER go to a church again that has this kind of lock up procedure. My child was injured behind one of these walls buy one who had passed all his security checks. We now know he has injured more than just my child but because of the way security checks are run, he will still come up "safe" even with multiple offenses. If a parent cannot walk by and see in at any time, my child will not go there.

[Whereneverever]

Did perhaps something happen you are unaware of?

 

Do they not want parents back there because there was an issue with a parent, maybe?

[simka2]

I've seen this before, especially in very large churches. It doesn't bother me. I've been on the inside of the whole childcare/Sunday school thing before and I know what can happen if there isn't tight control.

 

:iagree:If this is a large church, dealing with many visitors, irregular attenders, and various unknown people...it sounds reasonable. I have personally instituted a very similar set-up, which was required by our liabilty insurance. There is actually a training program that we have to go through, per liability insurance called "reducing the risk."

 

The main issue is having a safe zone where you do not have a variety of individualis crowding hallways or opening various doors.

 

You are right that most abuse happens by trusted individuals, but legally a church has to show due diligence in protecting large amounts of children.

 

The one acception I would have made....and demanded as a parent, is the right to walk with my child and meet the teachers who would be directly interacting with them. This would probably have to be done with an "approved" escort, but that is just to dot the I's and cross the T's that you were escorted down and back.

 

There is no reason a program, the size you are desribing, cannot issue you a very BRIGHT visitor badge and have you sign in and out of a visitor log. Hope that helps!

[ByGrace3]

Definitely not ok. As a previous children's minister and very concerned about safety and policies, not a chance. I would never leave my child in the care of people I had not put my eyes in. I would never put my child in a place I could not check on them any chance I wanted.

 

I would write a letter or email explaining that while you appreciate their concern for safety but need to balance that with the comfort of parents. Explain that as a parent you are uncomfortable leaving your children with people you have not met. That does not seem unreasonable to me.

 

Lastly, and I am currently dealing with an issue along these lines as well and have to write an email myself. While we appreciate rules in the name of safety we must balance the benefit with the inconvenience. If the inconvenience FAR outweighs any benefit, them to have a rule just for the sake of a rule is an abuse of power. Not allowing another parent to pick up falls under these categories. We have to have a sticker that matched the sticker our elementary kids have. Same for preschool only on the preschool sticker both parents pics are printed on them. It is absurd that ei ther parent cannot pick up. That is not realistic at all.

 

IMHO often someone new will come in, make lots of changes and then realize the lack of feasibility of some. Hopefully this is the case and they will work with you.

 

Definitely facilitate communication, you are the parent, and do deserve input. If they dismiss you, then you decide how important these things are to you.

[Parrothead]

No. No, NO, NO.

 

Nope, sorry, usurping my access to my children is NOT for their safety, it is to exert control. Not knowing the staff/volunteers is NOT safe (or reasonable). No, there is no "partnering with parents" going on there. No. Just no.

 

I would address it in our farewell letter. There is absolutely no way I would be ok with any organization whose leaders could make such bad decisions, whether they choose to correct them in response to complaints or not.

...

 

Strangers? Good riddance.

:iagree:

[klmama]

My church has us check in the children via computer and get stickers with numbers that match the children's numbers. However, if we want the other spouse to pick up the child, we can just give them our sticker. No one is super uptight about it once they know who we are - when they don't know us, though, they do verify numbers. Only parents with check-in stickers are allowed in the children's wing hallways, but they are allowed. Everyone gets a chance to meet the staff in the room before leaving their children with them. Before we had the stickers, parents and children had name/photo badges, and only those whose photos were on the child's badge could check them out at the end. That led to problems with older siblings being sent by parents to pick up a child while the parents finished their ministry elsewhere in the church, and I think that may be one reason they switched to the stickers. The computer check in also makes it easier for the church staff to monitor the number of children at any service on a regular basis so they can know how to allocate volunteers and resources.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree that it could be an issue with insurance; I also agree that there may have been an issue with a parent. The policy at a group we attend (in church) is changing where parents will no longer escort their kids to their class because the parents stand in the hall with non-participating siblings and make a ton of noise; the kids cannot even hear in their classrooms!

[MomatHWTK]

I would guess that the director has tunnel vision- she has all this spiffy training, great ideas, knows the rules and has put up a plan to implement them. However, she forgot that parents are humans not robots. :D And we're adult humans. We don't like to be told what to do, we don't like being told we can't be trusted and we don't like having our children taken out of our sight for long periods of time.

 

The policy is probably in place for many of the reasons mentioned. The parents who havn't gone through a background check are a "risk." Sure I'm ok we "me" going back to check on my child, but what about that new guy- I don't know him. Just because he has a child doesn't mean he's ok. Sad but true. Having people access the hallway unescorted opens the door- literally, to allowing people in and out in an uncontrolled fashion and defeats the whole safety proceedure.

 

Now, what should have happened-

A letter to families letting them know that changes were coming and asking for input.

One to two informational meetings regarding the changes and introducing all staff who would be working with the children to the parents. Public schools have open houses and you get to meet your child's teacher- this should be no different.

 

What would be even better-

A commitment that the director or other authorized volunteer will do a rotating tour of the hall at least 2-3 (random) times during each Sunday's service so that those windows are being used to check on classrooms.

Rules dictating two volunteers (not a married/otherwise related couple) to a room, strict rules regarding bathroom proceedures, and a reporting system.

 

What would be fabulous-

Two full time floaters who could accompany children to the bathroom and/or be the 2nd person in a room if a child needed to be escorted back to a parent or had a medical emergency.

 

An assigned entry monitor who could escort a parent to their child during service as needed.

 

Relaxed teachers who accept that sometimes baby will be upset by a visiting parent or a class will be distracted and that's OK. Better to have parents who care than parents who don't. :001_smile:

 

 

FWIW, we are no where near the size to have any of these cool systems. We've talked about it, so these really are just "ideals" that I'm throwing out.

 

 

IMHO, to use business-speak, your director has a serious communication problem and needs to learn how to address all stakeholders fairly and effectively.

[*********]

Aha! Ahaha.

 

No.

 

For one, we don't 'do' children's church. We feel they should worship with us.

 

For two, if we *did*, there is NO WAY EVER I'd go along with that policy.

 

Good grief, it's not even that 'locked down' when they're in public school.

 

That has got to be the WORST children's church policy I've heard. Ever. Frankly, it scares me.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Way over the top!! I have never heard of anything that nutty!!

 

Regardless of reasons, it is wrong to take that route. I would not allow my children to be in an area where I could not have access to them.

Edited April 16, 2012 by FiveOaksAcademy

[jennsmile]

WOW!

 

Makes me grateful for our very small primary of children where I know everybody my children interact with and often hear from their teachers.

[kitten18]

I'd write a letter and not use Sunday School anymore. It's absurd. If I can't check on my kids directly and if I don't know who is taking care of them, they stay with me.

:iagree:

[shinyhappypeople]

When I asked the director, "Why are you doing all this?" She said, "It's for safety." If there was a problem, we (the parents) were never told about it. We were never asked what we thought about the current (well, now, "former") safety procedures.

 

What I feel like screaming from the rooftops is that, in a church setting, children are MOST at risk of being abused by TRUSTED ADULTS. It's the Sunday School teachers, youth pastors, elders, etc. that are the most likely to abuse a child in a church setting. So you're locking my kids in with the people who are most likely to abuse and then telling me to shut up and go away?! NO. NO. NO.

 

Listen, I realize that most adults wouldn't ever abuse a child. I don't particularly suspect anyone at that church. But, I have a policy of meeting people my kids will be interacting with (teachers, neighbors, whoever...) and doing a quick gut check. 99% of the time I feel okay with them and life goes on as normal. However, with the current set-up at the church, I don't have the option of meeting these people and doing a gut check. I'm just handing my kids over and keeping my fingers crossed.

[Kathryn]

Possibly let me give you the other side. When I was director of the nursery I instigated some of the same things. Not quite as strict but close.

Parent(guardian) brought child to the nursery(they could see in and anyone that was working in there that day), they signed the child in and received a tag. I didn't require that the same person come get the child but I did require that the person that did come for the child had to have the tag.

 

We did not allow parents to be in the nursery. If they wanted to 'work' in the nursery they needed to be scheduled as such. If they wanted to be with their child there was a cry room they could use.

 

Some of the reasons for this were:

1. We had visitors that would want to be in the nursery with there child. Some of them were....umm.... unusual individuals and I had my hands full supervising the children. I did not want to have to supervise the adults that I had no back ground info on.

 

2. We had 7-14 yr olds coming and picking up babies/toddler, turning them loose and in possible danger as they could easily get out the door, fall down the stairs, get stepped on. If a parent chose to give the card to their 7 yr old to pick up the baby that was their choice but I then knew that the parent was aware that the said 7 yr old had been given the child.

 

3. At different times we had young couples that did not have a stable marriage. At one time one couple was constantly in a state of breaking up, getting together, breaking up with threats of I will steal this child or that child, getting back together......get the picture. I did not want to hand a child over to an unstable, possibly intoxicated parent. With this policy in place I had the right to refuse giving the child over if the adult didn't have the tag.

 

Believe me when we started I had MAD parents. I was an extremist, I was instilling fear, etc. No I was not only protecting the child but the workers. Once everyone became accustom to it all was well.

 

If you think some of it is to much or you do not feel comfortable with it go talk to the director or your pastor.

 

This I would be perfectly fine with. This is not in the least comparable to what the OP said is happening. NO WAY would my child be going.

 

 

Definitely not ok. As a previous children's minister and very concerned about safety and policies, not a chance. I would never leave my child in the care of people I had not put my eyes in. I would never put my child in a place I could not check on them any chance I wanted.

 

I would write a letter or email explaining that while you appreciate their concern for safety but need to balance that with the comfort of parents. Explain that as a parent you are uncomfortable leaving your children with people you have not met. That does not seem unreasonable to me.

 

Lastly, and I am currently dealing with an issue along these lines as well and have to write an email myself. While we appreciate rules in the name of safety we must balance the benefit with the inconvenience. If the inconvenience FAR outweighs any benefit, them to have a rule just for the sake of a rule is an abuse of power. Not allowing another parent to pick up falls under these categories. We have to have a sticker that matched the sticker our elementary kids have. Same for preschool only on the preschool sticker both parents pics are printed on them. It is absurd that ei ther parent cannot pick up. That is not realistic at all.

 

IMHO often someone new will come in, make lots of changes and then realize the lack of feasibility of some. Hopefully this is the case and they will work with you.

 

Definitely facilitate communication, you are the parent, and do deserve input. If they dismiss you, then you decide how important these things are to you.

 

Agree with this.

[shinyhappypeople]

One more thing:

 

When people think of abuse in the church, usually they're thinking s*xual abuse. And that's a truly awful thing.

 

But what about emotional or verbal abuse? What about spiritual abuse? Those aren't things that are going to show up on a background check. I have the right to meet these adults and do a gut check. Seriously, people do and say crazy, crazy things in the name of "teaching kids about Jesus." (don't ask how I know)

 

I'm responsible to God for my kids. Don't shut me out.

[HappyCrazyMama]

One more thing:

 

We people think of abuse in the church, usually they're thinking s*xual abuse. And that's a truly awful thing.

 

But what about emotional or verbal abuse? What about spiritual abuse? Those aren't things that are going to show up on a background check. I have the right to meet these adults and do a gut check. Seriously, people do and say crazy, crazy things in the name of "teaching kids about Jesus." (don't ask how I know)

:iagree: I would definitely have an issue with not being able to meet the SS teachers.:confused:

[shinyhappypeople]

:iagree: I would definitely have an issue with not being able to meet the SS teachers.:confused:

 

OK, in fairness to the conductor of the Crazy Train, if I made some noise I could probably get introductions to the volunteers after class or something. But, I'd have to the That Mom (you know, the one that's a trouble maker). And, honestly, meeting and learning the first name of the people volunteering with my kids shouldn't be some right I have to fight for. Things should be run in such a transparent manner that relationships between parents and volunteers are almost inevitable.

 

This doesn't feel like a church. It feels like something ugly and impersonal. It feels slick and not at all family-friendly. It feels like they value efficiency over relationship.

[MamaT]

I'd write a letter and not use Sunday School anymore. It's absurd. If I can't check on my kids directly and if I don't know who is taking care of them, they stay with me.

 

:iagree: I would not leave my kids there EVER.

[rutamattatt]

Also was on staff at a large church (5000+ per weekend, 1000 kids) in Children's Ministry, and while I understand the new procedures, I also can understand why they feel so...awful to you as a parent.

 

At the church where I worked there were a handful of registered sexual offenders who attended there. There were strict guidelines for these folks as far as where they could and couldn't be in the church, but we had a system set up similar in that adults couldn't come all the way to the rooms for the younger children (preschool/infants). This was not to keep parents out - it was to insure unknowns didn't "get in". We also could not share the names of the people we had on the "not around kids" list to the parents for obvious reasons. This wasn't a policy of fear, it was a policy set to respect the ministry needs of everyone - the children, the parents, and those who struggled with inappropriate relationships with children. But I struggled with it - all aspects of it, and I don't think there is a perfect balance. It isn't good to be too cavalier or naive, but it also isn't healthy to instill fear in either parents or children. It just isn't easy.

 

Now, as a parent I understand that you need to know WHO is teaching your child. I also know as a parent I like being able to have a brief "chat" with the teacher during check out time - just a little sentence or two about how the class went, what they talked about, etc. I would hate to not have that opportunity to see and interact with who was teaching my child.

 

I encourage you to talk to the Children's Minister because I think you have some really valid points and concerns. But just know, it is hard to be in her shoes. It is a tremendous responsibility to provide a safe and caring environment for children, and it is (almost!) easier to deal with angry parents than to live with the pain and regret of one incident. And of course, no matter how diligent churches or people are, bad things can still happen. There is no policy or procedure that can eliminate evil from the world our kids live in. That's the balance that is hard to find. But together, I hope you can find a middle ground.

:grouphug:

[chiguirre]

I wouldn't have sent Geezle to CCE if those kind of rules were in place. I needed to know his teachers and they needed to bring up any issues they were having before anything got out to hand. I can't see how this policy could possibly work for sn kids AT ALL. It pretty much guarantees that their parents won't feel comfortable and won't use the Sunday school.