Would it be very wrong to create a poor man's Classical Conversations?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I love the idea of CC. The main thing my children are lacking is academic community. But I'll never, ever be able to afford CC, and very few homeschoolers of my acquaintance can afford it, either.

 

Did Leigh Bortins want to create a new model, or does she envision CC as the only community of this type? Would we get sued if we took some elements of CC and began a whole new entity?

 

Would it be perfectly legal but a nasty thing to do?

 

In my mind, CC-type organizations could have half a dozen variations within the homeschool community. I know secular/inclusive types have batted the idea around.

[AuntieM]

I need economical intellectual community. Move over here, I'll be your assistant. :D

[Momof3littles]

I would love something like this. I really wish we had a secular option in my area specifically.

 

I never really explored the costs for CC since we are secular HSers, but I know it isn't inexpensive.

[justasque]

What kinds of elements from CC are you planning to use?

 

People create DIY co-ops all the time around here, with whatever structure/content the group needs/wants, based on their common needs. I've seen formal ones, with money changing hands and boards of directors and so on, as well as informal ones, typically organized by a handful of people who keep things running.

[amey311]

I think it may depend on what you actually take from CC. If you've never seen the CC materials and just know what they cover, then building your own shouldn't be a problem.

 

If you're going to take things here and there from CC that you have (or your friend has or whatever) you'll have to be FAR more cautious. You'll be running the risk of copyright/intellectual property issues.

[MariannNOVA]

I think it may depend on what you actually take from CC. If you've never seen the CC materials and just know what they cover, then building your own shouldn't be a problem.

 

If you're going to take things here and there from CC that you have (or your friend has or whatever) you'll have to be FAR more cautious. You'll be running the risk of copyright/intellectual property issues.

 

This sums it up for me. If you have never looked at any CC material (cc material NOT other curric that is used in CC - for instance, IEW and Saxon are used in cc -- but they are not property of cc).

 

Anyway, I say go for it -- as much as I like CC -- I dislike parts of it and I wish we didn't have to do them -- I much much much prefer MCT for Grammar than the Essentials part of CC. I dislike diagramming and the way that in Essentials, there is so much material cc has included that the tutors have to really skim the surface for lack of time.

 

I say go ahead and give it a shot!

 

And, I dislike their Latin in Foundations -- I think there are way better Latin series out there.

[LucyStoner]

If you called it Conversing Classically and ripped off all their materials, then yes. If you created, using your own materials, an alternative to fill a need in the marketplace absolutely not. Little Gym may not like it if a Gymboree opens in their neighborhood, but it is perfectly legal despite being very similar.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I wouldn't call it Conversing Classically or use any of their materials. I would be imitating the community and accountability aspects more than the specific class arrangement or curriculum choices.

 

Ooooh, I want to talk about this but ds is needing me for his TOG discussion! I thought I had more free time when I started the thread. I will be back later.

[chepyl]

If you are putting together your own memory work lessons and working in a group to memoroze them, I don't see a problem. You could even do it to match up with TWTM more. CC Foundations is a three year cycle rather than four, this means my science and hiatory dont match up well every year.

[mommyto4]

I am in a coop that uses some of the format of CC, but adapted it for our needs. We use the skip counting songs and the idea of presentations, but we created our own history sentences and songs, our own Canadian geography curriculum, and our own science sentences.

We don't do the Latin or the US history/geography stuff because none of the moms wanted to. It is work, but when everyone does their part, it is a beautiful coop!

Edited February 3, 2012 by mommyto4
grammar

[garddwr]

Take a look at Classically Catholic; they have done something very similar to what you are thinking of, of course with a specifically Catholic orientation. I'm not Catholic but I own some of their materials and really like the way they are set up--much more user friendly than Classical Conversations. They offer the materials for individuals or co-ops, but do not require paid tutors etc. the way CC does--basically, the details of how you run your group are up to you, they just provide materials. You could of course hire tutors and charge tuition, but you could also run it much less expensively as a basic co-op set up. They follow a four year rotation.

I think there is definitely a market for something like this for the more general homeschool population. Maybe two markets actually: a generic Christian program for those who specifically want materials oriented in that direction (but maybe without the restrictions of CC in terms of tutors signing a SOF) and a secular program for others. I would personally be happy to participate in either of those programs! I actually asked the authors of the Classically Catholic program if they might produce a non-Catholic version (which I would love)--they responded that they had considered the idea but it wasn't going to happen in the new future.

I don't think there is any reason someone else couldn't go out and develop a program with a similar model!

 

--Sarah

[katilac]

As noted in their very name, Classical Conversations is inspired by methods that have been in use for ages. It's not a new model at all. Even if it were, others could draw inspiration from it with no legal or ethical issues.

[MariannNOVA]

Take a look at Classically Catholic; they have done something very similar to what you are thinking of, of course with a specifically Catholic orientation. I'm not Catholic but I own some of their materials and really like the way they are set up--much more user friendly than Classical Conversations. They offer the materials for individuals or co-ops, but do not require paid tutors etc. the way CC does--basically, the details of how you run your group are up to you, they just provide materials. You could of course hire tutors and charge tuition, but you could also run it much less expensively as a basic co-op set up. They follow a four year rotation.

I think there is definitely a market for something like this for the more general homeschool population. Maybe two markets actually: a generic Christian program for those who specifically want materials oriented in that direction (but maybe without the restrictions of CC in terms of tutors signing a SOF) and a secular program for others. I would personally be happy to participate in either of those programs! I actually asked the authors of the Classically Catholic program if they might produce a non-Catholic version (which I would love)--they responded that they had considered the idea but it wasn't going to happen in the new future.

I don't think there is any reason someone else couldn't go out and develop a program with a similar model!

 

--Sarah

 

WOW --

i love this -- thank you!

[DawnM]

I am not sure I understand. I didn't think CC was all that expensive.

 

The expensive part here is that the teachers get some of the $$ as payment for teaching.

 

If your teachers are moms who volunteer, it should be quite reasonable.

 

Dawn

[Another Lynn]

I think it may depend on what you actually take from CC. If you've never seen the CC materials and just know what they cover, then building your own shouldn't be a problem.

 

If you're going to take things here and there from CC that you have (or your friend has or whatever) you'll have to be FAR more cautious. You'll be running the risk of copyright/intellectual property issues.

 

:iagree:

 

I would think about what makes CC successful as an academic community compared to *some* other co-ops. It's not the content, imho, it's the structure, the commitment, the reason for coming together. And, imho, it helps that so many of the policies are already in place and not changing at the whim of the director. I would ask (here or friends IRL) what has worked or not worked well at any co-op they've been in and use that information to help you decide about structure and policies. Also, did I see you use TOG? Wouldn't it be natural to start a TOG co-op? It seems to work so well in co-op situations (in fact was designed for it, if I'm not mistaken?).

[G5052]

Their website is here: http://www.aquinaslearning.com/.

 

I'm aware of several small, home-based groups that use the CC materials and don't advertise and just charge a little to cover expenses.

 

I don't know if it is still going, but another local group was using Andrew Campbell's "Living Memory" (http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/living-memory/4080865).

 

Certainly there are many ways of doing this on your own with volunteers on a smaller scale. You just can't call yourself "Classical Conversations."

 

We've been involved with CC for quite awhile and prefer the consistency and structure a national organization provides, but I understand the financial issues, believe me. If they didn't pay me to tutor, we couldn't have done it this long.

[PentecostalMom]

I need economical intellectual community. Move over here, I'll be your assistant. :D

 

And I will be the director in my area, lol! Sign us up!

 

BTW, we can afford it, but either no one else in my area can (which I doubt) or no one is interested. I have tried repeatedly to garner interest and I get nothing.

[PentecostalMom]

I am not sure I understand. I didn't think CC was all that expensive.

 

The expensive part here is that the teachers get some of the $$ as payment for teaching.

 

If your teachers are moms who volunteer, it should be quite reasonable.

 

Dawn

 

The director gets 40% of the enrollment price, and the tutors get 60%. I don't know if the moms at your CC "volunteer" of if they are getting their cut. I cannot see them working for free. They may exchange their payment for tuition, but they are still getting paid either way.

[jennsmile]

I would love it if you did. While there is one kinda close the fact I can't be a tutor is annoying. There is no way I can afford it if I can't tutor and even then it would be iffy. I would love an alternative.

[abbeyej]

People have been creating their own home school academic communities for decades -- of course you can do it!

 

Sure, as others have said, you wouldn't create something with a similar name that present itself as being "just like CC!"... But you can ABSOLUTELY find a couple of like-minded parents and create a weekly co-op that fits your family and those you work with.

 

I've been involved in large home school groups and small ones (all the way down to my family and one other). There have been great things about each of them. One that I thought was particularly well-run as an *organization* (and that pre-dates CC) is Master's Academy of Fine Arts. It's a wonderful program that combines visual and performing arts study with chronological history (for elementary age -- the program changes a little for middle and high school). It's a great one to look at and just see what they've done and what aspects of the program might work for you and might not.

 

There are programs where the group brings in teachers from the outside community. Those tend to cost more. There are groups where it's just a few families that divide up teaching responsibilities. Those can cost as little as the materials involved, or a little more if you must rent a space and pay for insurance (but usually that's only when the group is larger, so the costs can be split more easily).

 

For our little two-family co-op (which we didn't even bother to call a co-op), we planned together over the summer and divided up the course work we wanted our kids to do together with what we felt were each of our strengths. We divided the kids up (into two groups, since that's how many we could have -- a couple more families and you can have more "classes" and even a break / planning period for parents) and alternated groups and teaching. For instance, our day might go like this:

Everybody: "Memory time" together. I'm not actually wildly in favor of the *type* of memory work that CC does. I appreciate that kids in the grammar stage *can* and *should* memorize a lot, but I want more "soul satisfying" memory work than just math facts and history and Latin grammar entirely removed from context. So we worked on a lot of poetry, some scripture (in English, but also in the languages the kids were studying -- Latin for both groups, Greek for the olders), historical speeches that fit in the time period we were learning, sometimes historical facts that fit with our time period, Latin grammar that the kids were also studying in class...

 

Then we'd split up. I might get the older kids for Greek while the other mom got the younger ones for a literature class. Then we'd switch and I'd do Latin with the little ones while she did logic with the big ones. Then another switch and I'd do Latin and poetry with the olders while she did a SOTW project with the youngers. Then we'd have lunch together (perhaps I'd bring homemade bread and she'd have a pot of soup that had been simmering all morning) and then we'd all do an art project together, or the olders would do a science lab while the youngers played in the yard. ... Exactly how we divided our day and what we did changed as we felt it needed to, but that's a general idea of how it was structured.

 

Outside of our class together days, the kids did similar work, but not always exactly the same. The two in our older group were doing the same math, history, and literature at home, even though we didn't *formally* discuss them during class time. (Things often came up though, and that was great.) They worked on logic, Latin, Greek, science labs, and art projects together. The younger group was more spread-out age-wise and were doing different skill work (math and language arts) at home, but they stayed in the same place in SOTW and did Latin and some literature together.

 

You could do whatever works for *you* and the families you're involved with. CC did NOT invent the co-op! :)

[AFwife Claire]

:iagree:

 

Also, did I see you use TOG? Wouldn't it be natural to start a TOG co-op? It seems to work so well in co-op situations (in fact was designed for it, if I'm not mistaken?).

 

We have sort of done this with a TOG co-op. We use TOG for our history and lit, although we only do the co-op for our dialectic and rhetoric kids. We also do science and foreign language. We meet on Tuesdays, and our younger kids are already in a co-op (unit study-type, only used for enrichment, but a really great (and big) group).

 

The younger kids' co-op only goes until 12:30, so we pick them up and then do a modified CC-memory work time with them in the afternoon, while the older kids are finishing up their classes.

 

I made a modified timeline, with dates, and this year we are also memorizing the kings and queens of England. We memorized Heb. 11 last year (we were studying the Ancients), and we're memorizing Eph. 6 and I Cor. 13 this year. I take science facts from whatever the older kids are studying--Life Science last year, and Physical Science this year--so that the younger kids can contribute a little to discussions, and have some basic facts about what their older brothers are studying. We memorize a stanza of a poem each week as well--we memorize about 6 poems a year. And then I do mapwork using whatever the TOG stuff is for that week.

 

In the summer I divide everything out per week (the poems, Bible passage, etc) so I have a master plan of what to cover each week. You could certainly add math, English, Latin, whatever else was important very easily.

 

I offered on the curriculum board at the end of this summer to send my memory work files to anyone who was interested and thought they would be helpful. If you would like one or the other, please message me with your email address!

[Murphy101]

WOW --

i love this -- thank you!

 

:iagree: off to explore them more in depth...

[JudoMom]

I am not sure I understand. I didn't think CC was all that expensive.

 

The expensive part here is that the teachers get some of the $$ as payment for teaching.

 

If your teachers are moms who volunteer, it should be quite reasonable.

 

Dawn

 

According to their current published pricing, it would be $420/year for each student, with no discount for multiples for Foundations or Essentials. I know I could get some money knocked off for being a tutor, but it would still be out of my price range for 5 students, I'm sure.

[2_girls_mommy]

If you are putting together your own memory work lessons and working in a group to memoroze them, I don't see a problem. You could even do it to match up with TWTM more. CC Foundations is a three year cycle rather than four, this means my science and history don't match up well every year.

 

The cycle not matching up is a big reason I haven't thought too hard about investing the $ for CC. We go to a less academic co-op, where I teach or co teach in a couple of classes so that my kids get what I want academically from them and so that they get a hs community.

 

If I am going to pay the big bucks for a co-op like that it needs to match up with what I have been doing at home for all of these years: TWTM. None of the CC currics line up with what we have been doing. It doesn't make sense to me for my kids to have their history sentences line up this year, but next year be off or for them to go there to do a science experiment that we have already done at home, kwim? I like the idea of the memory work and the presentations, but we do memory work at home and I can do a "show and tell" type class at my co-op if I want next year.

 

I would love to participate in a more TWTM type co-op... But I don't have the energy to think about starting one.

[m0mmaBuck]

I know the cost of putting one child CC here is more than twice what I pay for curriculum for both of my kids each year. That is a major deterant for me. I would love a more economical choice that still uses the same types of ideas.

[m0mmaBuck]

According to their current published pricing, it would be $420/year for each student, with no discount for multiples for Foundations or Essentials. I know I could get some money knocked off for being a tutor, but it would still be out of my price range for 5 students, I'm sure.

 

Hm. Here it's over $1000/year/child so obviously the teachers or administrator are paid. Albeit not much for a year, but still that adds up when you are paying the bill.

[JudoMom]

Hm. Here it's over $1000/year/child so obviously the teachers or administrator are paid. Albeit not much for a year, but still that adds up when you are paying the bill.

 

That price didn't include any facilities fees, and Challenge is $1100/year. Here is the document from their website.

[NCMom]

Didn't read the other posts and just brainstorming here... ;)

 

Are you talking about CC Foundations/Essentials or CC Challenge or both?

 

Of course MAFA was around before CC and now Classically Catholic exists. So CC has not cornered the market, by any means.

 

You would need to figure out your philosophy and model first...

 

For Foundations/Essentials absolutely you could make your own! CC bases all of their activities off of a few manuals; they just don't follow them really well, you know they use them as a jumping off point. CC uses a 3 year rotation, you could do 4. You could stick closely to TWTM as far as memory work goes. (CC does not.) You could add poetry, etc. I actually think Classically Catholic's model is slightly better in this area.

 

For the actual activities in science/art/whatever, should you choose to do them, you could use a program or book. And MOST importantly you could level it, i.e. the littles and the older kids would NOT be doing exactly the same things, in exactly the same way! I would want a LOT of teacher support for the teachers of littles, if you went that route... :)

 

For Essentials, should you choose to do "grammar", you could pick any well done program that lends itself to group work and go with it.

 

I think the main difference is the upper levels is that this is NOT a co-op. CC bills themselves as a community (which is pretty true, imho). Everything is all laid out for parent kids and tutors. That is what I like about CC's model. Co-ops are typically random classes and while there might be a progression it isn't always contiguous. My kids liked having a sequence of classes with subjects that are intertwined.

 

If you want to homeschool in this way, and clearly many folks do, then it's a matter of laying out what progression you want, and then figuring out what materials and instruction will get you there. The problem with the upper levels is always lack of tutors... But if you used materials that had actual help/training/info etc. for the tutors (think TOG style teacher's stuff) then it might not be so bad. That is not a big part of the CC model, though.

 

It would be interesting to see some real competition. :D

 

Georgia

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

I think it would be so fun to design my own co-op. And that's about where the fun ends, LOL!

 

We participate in CC for a few reasons, one of which is the fact that I *don't want to teach or tutor.* The tutors and director at our CC earn every single penny they receive, and then some. We have trouble filling all the tutoring spots. I am astounded that co-ops can get people to do all that work without any (or little) compensation.

 

I don't like every single detail about CC. But unless I were to completely create my own (like you are considering), that will be true no matter where we are participating. Heck, I don't even like every single detail about each of the resources I adore. We add, skip, and supplement all over the place. Ha! You have to realize that every single person involved in the group you create is going to have opinions about philosophy, method, structure, scheduling, and content. There is *no way* everyone is going to like every single detail about a group experience. It's just not going to happen.

 

CC isn't for everyone. I get the financial draw-back. If you are willing to put in a huge amount of work without compensation and you can find others who have the same desires in philosophy, method, structure, scheduling, and content (and are willing to volunteer their time and energy), I can imagine that creating your own academic community would be rewarding! Sometimes I do the planning part in my head just for fun. :)

 

ETA: To answer your question :) I think the more educational options we have the better. If you are putting together your own content and not using a similar name, I don't see how it would be a problem.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Heidi @ Mt Hope

[SonshineLearner]

I have loved to put together our own co-op this year. I love the more "hands-on" part of us being able to do as we wish, and tweak it as we need to...

We have had more problems with teachers/sickness; this is due to a few different issues. One, I've been more strict about staying home when you're sick. Two, I have more "teachers" that can call out sick. (Instead of just 5 tutors)

We will do memory work for the next year, we're trying to do some of that now. If I hadn't directed a program, we'd use some of CC's materials and drop what we didn't like. Because I directed, I can't take CC's actual materials and use them.

I know that starting and maintaining co-ops is hard, which is why it seems like we've had interest from pretty far away. Honestly, it'd be easier to drive and hour each way, than to put one together. I have to leave about 45 minutes before co-op starts, to get there, open it up...etc.

At this point, it's my effort at providing a co-op with a bar that's decently high. We're only in year one, and we have a long way to go, but we're able to do it for a decent amount of $$$ per child plus parent involvement. (which a program like CC demands, anyway) We also go for 30 weeks a year...

:)

[Samiam]

CC here was going to be about $1600 for all three of my children, not including supplies. And then add to that the curriculum we would do at home....uh, no, not gonna happen.

 

The thing is, your idea of taking something they offer, and then spinning it, is what business's do all the time. See an idea, and spin it to be better and/or different.

 

In our area, there are three different businesses that are "Pizza Buffets". Cici's, Pizza Inn, and Stevie B's. All are the same concept, pay a dirt cheap price and gorge yourself on an array of cheap pizza. I doubt anyone can say one stole the other's idea.

 

HS Co-ops have been around for years, way before CC. Perhaps they are just one of the first that has taken one model, and made it a national movement. But doing something similiar is not really "stealing" from them.

 

Plus most of the curriculum is not CC's making, they use other curriculum such as Saxon, IEW, etc. Not to mention, CC sells their own curriculum products to individuals. I assume they would know that some are going to use it outside of the CC communities.

[Karis]

It's easy to do this. Other than considering the work involved in starting fresh, I think the draw to CC is that CC (the brand) has been around and is not some untried concept.

 

 

Go for it! We all have to start somewhere.

[silliness7]

I love the idea of CC. The main thing my children are lacking is academic community. But I'll never, ever be able to afford CC, and very few homeschoolers of my acquaintance can afford it, either.

 

Did Leigh Bortins want to create a new model, or does she envision CC as the only community of this type? Would we get sued if we took some elements of CC and began a whole new entity?

 

Would it be perfectly legal but a nasty thing to do?

 

In my mind, CC-type organizations could have half a dozen variations within the homeschool community. I know secular/inclusive types have batted the idea around.

 

I like your idea. Economical rocks. Legally, I think you could as long as you don't use the name Classical Conversations. Ethically, I can't see what is wrong with bringing an academic community to the masses. As to whether you could use CC material, I don't know. They use VP and IEW and others. I don't see why you couldn't, as long as you don't use their name in your program title or even description. But I am not a lawyer.

[silliness7]

I wouldn't call it Conversing Classically or use any of their materials. I would be imitating the community and accountability aspects more than the specific class arrangement or curriculum choices.

 

Ooooh, I want to talk about this but ds is needing me for his TOG discussion! I thought I had more free time when I started the thread. I will be back later.

 

But can you copyright the way you arrange a class or curriculum choices?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

This is an awesome thread. I'm only reading in snatches because I'm building a Superbowl party, and since I don't often throw parties this is taking every spare minute. But the Superbowl is in my city so we have to do it up big this year!

 

Still reading, still thinking...I love all the interest and good advice.

 

For myself, I'm envisioning a Charlotte Mason-inspired learning community. You know how most people don't seem to get that CM was a classical educator? I would like to prove the connection in a co-op setting. Younger children would study copywork, narration, and dictation, go on nature walks, etc., upper grammar would begin rigorous English grammar (beginning Latin and Greek a year later), and high school would be very similar to WTM. That's what we do at our house, and I really think it would fit well in this setting.

 

We'd use the 100 Pivotal Events memory work instead of the beautiful but expensive VP cards.

 

But what I'd really like, as a much larger vision, is a template that could be used by homeschoolers of any stripe. Just plug in your philosophy and curriculum choices and away you go. I think that Catholic co-op might have the bones of what I'm imagining, so I can't wait to really dig in over there.

 

Sigh! Have to go make bean dip! (Literally. LOL) I will keep coming back, I promise.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Good news, DH is making the bean dip, so I can chat for a minute.

 

I wouldn't actually be starting this for three more years, because my oldest son wants nothing to do with it. He's doing such a heavy load for high school that he can't spare a co-op day, either.

 

So really I'm planning for my younger two dc, and wanting to include the youngest (school-aged) children of anyone who joins.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Abbey, Claire, NayfiesMama, and Georgia, I'm printing out this thread. Thanks so much for the detailed posts.

 

For everyone, what do we all love about CC?

 

My list includes:

 

--A stated vision/mission that is about academic learning

--A director over the whole thing

--Tutors who have at least a modicum of training

--Memory work, recitations and presentations

--A standard of proficiency in Latin and grammar

--Non-ps site and oversight for testing

--A setting for teens to learn protocol, speech, debate

 

There's more, but that's a good start.

 

Now, what do we think CC is lacking? Or, more positively, what would we do differently?

 

My list includes:

 

--Affordability. We could be far less chic and still retain order and standards.

--Simplicity. But I may be wrong; the level of detail might be necessary for long-term success. CC 'feels' a little bureaucratic to me, but I have no experience with anything like this.

--Flexibility. I don't think we should have to use just one Latin, or just one math curriculum. I guess this would really depend on the abilities of the tutors...

--More training for parents. (I don't know if CC does this or not. If so, that's great.) If I'm going to be teaching diagramming to a class of fourth graders I would love to include their mothers. Same for drawing maps, or going through Latin recitations. I think many homeschoolers would rise to the challenge of homeschooling at a more rigorous level if they could just have more help with their oldest child. Not everyone is willing to go through that initial work of doing every lesson a week (or day) before their oldest child, working to understand everything...but they need to do that, if they want it to be any easier with their other children. I would love to be part of providing the training and inspiration that new homeschool Moms need as they are beginning. I'll help your child with his fractions, but I'll help you be sure you understand them, too.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I have lots of windows open, trying to sort out my muddled mind...

 

I notice Classically Catholic uses a four-year cycle for history and science, and their choices are similar to TWTM.

 

Does anyone know why Classical Conversations and Aquinas Learning (which looks great, btw) both use a 3yr cycle instead?

[Pink Fairy]

Do you think that the monetary investment is part of what makes CC work? I've read a lot of complaints on the board about co-ops, and parents not valuing the time and commitment of the parent teachers. I think it's easier to blow off cheap or free, much harder to blow off something you are significantly invested in monetarily.

 

Just throwing that out there as a consideration. :001_smile:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Do you think that the monetary investment is part of what makes CC work? I've read a lot of complaints on the board about co-ops, and parents not valuing the time and commitment of the parent teachers. I think it's easier to blow off cheap or free, much harder to blow off something you are significantly invested in monetarily.

 

Just throwing that out there as a consideration. :001_smile:

Yes, :iagree:

 

That's been my experience, too, and not just with homeschoolers. People would still have to pay or contribute something. We'd be looking for families who are serious about their child's education.

[justamouse]

Take a look at Classically Catholic; they have done something very similar to what you are thinking of, of course with a specifically Catholic orientation. I'm not Catholic but I own some of their materials and really like the way they are set up--much more user friendly than Classical Conversations. They offer the materials for individuals or co-ops, but do not require paid tutors etc. the way CC does--basically, the details of how you run your group are up to you, they just provide materials. You could of course hire tutors and charge tuition, but you could also run it much less expensively as a basic co-op set up. They follow a four year rotation.

I think there is definitely a market for something like this for the more general homeschool population. Maybe two markets actually: a generic Christian program for those who specifically want materials oriented in that direction (but maybe without the restrictions of CC in terms of tutors signing a SOF) and a secular program for others. I would personally be happy to participate in either of those programs! I actually asked the authors of the Classically Catholic program if they might produce a non-Catholic version (which I would love)--they responded that they had considered the idea but it wasn't going to happen in the new future.

I don't think there is any reason someone else couldn't go out and develop a program with a similar model!

 

--Sarah

Ohhhhh thank you.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

I have lots of windows open, trying to sort out my muddled mind...

 

I notice Classically Catholic uses a four-year cycle for history and science, and their choices are similar to TWTM.

 

Does anyone know why Classical Conversations and Aquinas Learning (which looks great, btw) both use a 3yr cycle instead?

 

I don't know why CC has a 3 yr cycle, but when I was trying to think through what I would do for a co-op, I could see the benefits. 1-3rd grade students go through all of the material. 4th-6th grade students have a chance to go through it a second time and really have it imbedded in their memory while adding the writing/grammar/challenging math games in the afternoon. More is expected of these students, such as more challenging presentation topics and memorizing some key dates on the timeline. The Challenge program then begins in 7th grade. I understand why that is a good stage to move on to more rigorous teaching, longer schedules, and independent study during the week.

 

I would love it if CC had a modified schedule and content for the 4 and 5 yos.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is an awesome thread. I'm only reading in snatches because I'm building a Superbowl party, and since I don't often throw parties this is taking every spare minute. But the Superbowl is in my city so we have to do it up big this year!

 

Still reading, still thinking...I love all the interest and good advice.

 

For myself, I'm envisioning a Charlotte Mason-inspired learning community. You know how most people don't seem to get that CM was a classical educator? I would like to prove the connection in a co-op setting. Younger children would study copywork, narration, and dictation, go on nature walks, etc., upper grammar would begin rigorous English grammar (beginning Latin and Greek a year later), and high school would be very similar to WTM. That's what we do at our house, and I really think it would fit well in this setting.

 

We'd use the 100 Pivotal Events memory work instead of the beautiful but expensive VP cards.

 

But what I'd really like, as a much larger vision, is a template that could be used by homeschoolers of any stripe. Just plug in your philosophy and curriculum choices and away you go. I think that Catholic co-op might have the bones of what I'm imagining, so I can't wait to really dig in over there.

 

Sigh! Have to go make bean dip! (Literally. LOL) I will keep coming back, I promise.

 

Perhaps something like this? It doesn't outline the how so much but it outlines the principles behind what appears to be a co-op based on those lines you were talking about.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't know why CC has a 3 yr cycle, but when I was trying to think through what I would do for a co-op, I could see the benefits. 1-3rd grade students go through all of the material. 4th-6th grade students have a chance to go through it a second time and really have it imbedded in their memory while adding the writing/grammar/challenging math games in the afternoon. More is expected of these students, such as more challenging presentation topics and memorizing some key dates on the timeline. The Challenge program then begins in 7th grade. I understand why that is a good stage to move on to more rigorous teaching, longer schedules, and independent study during the week.

 

I would love it if CC had a modified schedule and content for the 4 and 5 yos.

 

Oh, that does make perfect sense. Yes, I've often felt the same, even at home, about wanting a bigger leap in difficulty mid-way through the logic stage. I often reject homeschool materials that call for teaching a 5th grader and an 8th grader at exactly the same level.

 

Concerning a modified schedule for 4-5yo's: What would be your ideal for this stage?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Perhaps something like this? It doesn't outline the how so much but it outlines the principles behind what appears to be a co-op based on those lines you were talking about.

 

Thank you!!!! Very, very helpful. Printing this.

[angela in ohio]

--Affordability. We could be far less chic and still retain order and standards.

--Simplicity. But I may be wrong; the level of detail might be necessary for long-term success. CC 'feels' a little bureaucratic to me, but I have no experience with anything like this. Give it a year. You'll figure out why there are so many details. :D Homeschoolers are an interesting crowd to work with... ;)

--Flexibility. I don't think we should have to use just one Latin, or just one math curriculum. I guess this would really depend on the abilities of the tutors... Some of this has to do with the logistics of distributing materials country-wide and profits, so you will have a lot more flexibility.

--More training for parents. (I don't know if CC does this or not. CC requires parents to be in the Foundations and Essentials classrooms, so that they will be able to help their dc at home.

 

I think many of us have dreamed of doing something similar over the years. For me, the issue is a lack of academic HS families here. :glare: But I know there are a lot of great ideas to share here on this board. I can already dream up the outline of a great program like this... Latin paradigms, Bible memory work, VP cards, real art and music essentials, public speaking and book discussion, etc.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think many of us have dreamed of doing something similar over the years. For me, the issue is a lack of academic HS families here. :glare: But I know there are a lot of great ideas to share here on this board. I can already dream up the outline of a great program like this... keep the Latin paradigms, add Bible memory work, keep the VP cards, teach real art and music essentials, etc.

 

Angela, I want to believe in poor-but-WTM'y homeschoolers in my community, eating beans and wishing they had enough cash for CC, just waiting for someone to offer a real academic community for the rest of us.

 

My DH doesn't believe these people exist. He says as far as he can tell, people with money are the people who care, and they do CC if they are homeschoolers and private school if they are not. This is not generally an academic-minded community.

 

He may be right...except I met a woman on Monday whose daughter is being homeschooled by Grandma because public school has advanced the child to fourth grade even though she is barely reading Dr. Seuss and can't add up to 10. Mom can't homeschool because she's a single mother and has to work. Grandma is willing but needs lots of support. Mom and Grandma want to help this precious little girl achieve basic literacy so she can study Latin.

 

There may be others. Our schools are so bad that I have to believe there are parents around here who would homeschool if they had some serious, committed help.

[QuirkyKapers]

Here is another classical homeschooling community:

http://www.catholicschoolhouse.com/

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

Concerning a modified schedule for 4-5yo's: What would be your ideal for this stage?

 

That's a good question. There is such a HUGE range of abilities at that age. Some of the memory work has been an unexpected hit with my 4/5 year old son, and he has really enjoyed learning the same content as his bigger brothers. I'd keep the skip counting songs. He loved the history songs and did really well with the science memory work (his tutor was excellent at creating songs or chants for the science). I'd skip grammar. I would do shorter Bible passages or maybe a couple hymns. I would do one simple Latin prayer rather than rules, declensions, conjugations, or vocab. I would add poems and a picture book read-aloud (possibly corresponding with history or science). I'd skip tin whistle. Our tutors are great at adapting the science and art projects for the little people.

[Hannah]

After 6 years our 3-family co-op no longer exists due to one family moving and the other having competitive sport commitments. I really miss it.

 

We started off calling it “History Clubâ€and doing the activities from the SOTW AG together one afternoon per week. Each mom took a turn to prepare the class. It worked really well as everyone has a different craft talent and the kids benefit from that. Knowing that the other families are depending on a well prepared activity keeps everyone accountable.

After a while, we added memory work using the SOTW linked cards in the file section of this yahoo group. As they matured, we also had the children do projects and present to the group.

 

With one other family, we also do “Science Clubâ€. We do experiments together using various sources. We commit to this for a few weeks at a time. At the moment we're working through the experiments, games and activities in Ellen McHenry's Carbon Chemistry with our three older girls. (aged 11-13). The younger kids are watching Sonlight science DVD's and doing experiments from that. Again, knowing there's a fixed time and another family counting on us ensures that it gets done.

 

I"m not sure if this would be what you have in mind, but just doing it with one or two other families for a start may be easier than getting a large group together.