Article-Students lose vital skills in home school

[Dmmetler]

I wish the two teens who have killed themselves in my area (who, in both cases, have parents and peers reporting that they were being bullied due to sexual orientation, and that the school, despite this being reported to them, did nothing for YEARS) had been given the opportunity to be homeschooled.

[Word Nerd]

Oof! I think my eyes got stuck because I was rolling them so hard!

[Dmmetler]

I taught in the public school system until DD was born, and when she was in K, volunteered to tutor math through a community program, and was placed in a charter school serving low income students who were mostly below grade level. When I pulled DD to homeschool, the director of the program suggested that I could bring DD to the school and that she could play the math games, read books, and so on with the kids I was tutoring. She thought it would be wonderful for both DD and for the kids in the group to have the experience of being with children with a different educational background, and she really, really wanted to keep me as a tutor, as did the teachers who's students I'd been working with.

 

The school I'd been working in turned her down. So did four other schools. None of them were willing to allow a non-enrolled child to be in their building, even with the parent right there, even to keep a volunteer tutor who had a state teaching license and who had proven herself successful.

 

So, teacher, I TRIED to give back to the community as a homeschooler, and they turned me down.

[leeannpal]

I literally LOLed at the thought of an education degree as "grueling."

 

For my M.ed degree I was required to take graduate level history, political science, sociology and English classes. Educational Psychology required a body of research that was grueling at times. While the typical course just on education is not usually difficult, the practicums and research papers were not fluff.

 

Fwiw, I do not agree with most of this graduate student's article. However, to imply that just anyone can walk in at a university and complete graduate level work in education or any other degree is way off base as well.

 

I'm glad I have my degree and that I have been able to teach in a classroom setting. I am also really looking forward to home schooling my daughter next year. I do not feel the need to denigrate home schooling parents just because I am currently a classroom teacher. The hostility toward those in education here really surprises me. Why does it have to be an "us or them" mentality?

[Mimm]

I literally LOLed at the thought of an education degree as "grueling."

 

Me too! :lol:

[Surfside Academy]

You are doomed to failure unless you're part of the government system...Give me a break! :banghead:

[HappyCrazyMama]

My favorite comment...

 

Miss Cain - you sure poked a hornets nest with your article. I agree with all comments on here, except the one person who thought it was excellent. You better tell your instructors that their kakamamie theories aren't go over too well with regular folks.

 

Poked a hive.:lol:

[Catwoman]

All I can say is that I'll bet that by now, that young lady is seriously wishing she'd chosen to write about a different topic. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

Yawn. It's not even worth it.

[stripe]

For my M.ed degree I was required to take graduate level history, political science, sociology and English classes. Educational Psychology required a body of research that was grueling at times. While the typical course just on education is not usually difficult, the practicums and research papers were not fluff.

 

...I do not feel the need to denigrate home schooling parents just because I am currently a classroom teacher. The hostility toward those in education here really surprises me. Why does it have to be an "us or them" mentality?

 

Well, not everyone on here is hostile to schools. Some are. Some were just responding to the hostility from the author. I agree with you that a knee-jerk hostile response from either community is disappointing. I think most people who posted felt her article didn't show a great understanding of homeschooling beyond the stereotypes.

 

Also, most teachers don't have a master's degree, and I am not sure the comments were about a graduate degree, although the author is apparently a grad student.

[mommaduck]

http://www.dailygamecock.com/viewpoints/item/3243-students-lose-vital-skills-in-home-school

 

Opinionated brainwash!

She wants to discuss South Carolina! :lol: I believe they are at the bottom of the national education ranks! They pushed one of my brothers through school without bothering to help him with his dyslexia and teaching him how to read. He's 30yrs old and can BARELY read (aka, I know 1st graders that read better than him). And she wants to complain about oversight of South Carolina homeschoolers?! How about removing the log out of the eye of the system before worrying about the speck amoungst the homeschoolers?

[jillian]

She wants to discuss South Carolina! :lol: I believe they are at the bottom of the national education ranks! They pushed one of my brothers through school without bothering to help him with his dyslexia and teaching him how to read. He's 30yrs old and can BARELY read (aka, I know 1st graders that read better than him). And she wants to complain about oversight of South Carolina homeschoolers?! How about removing the log out of the eye of the system before worrying about the speck amoungst the homeschoolers?

absolutely!! I was totally thinking about the quality of SC schools. I'm near Charleston and my friend who has a daughter getting ready for K-4 soon is desperate to move out of her county because her schools are so awful. We moved to SC not by choice (military relocation) and I was happy to see the homeschooling laws weren't uber stringent.

[Kirch]

My exact thought as well.:lol::lol::lol:

 

Me too.:D Then I thought about the possibility that she was talking about high school teachers--I can imagine that getting a degree and being certified to teach high school math or science might be grueling. Or at least more so than elementary ed. I figured it wouldn't hurt to let that issue go since there are many more problems with her article!

[Mommy22alyns]

This comment cracked me up - he was only hsed for 2 years and he was ruined socially? Wow! :lol:

 

"Having been homeschooled, I have to agree with you. You, of all people, can attest to my stunning lack of social skills, and I like to blame a lot of that on homeschooling. I've seen similar issues, with some variation, in friends and acquaintances who were homeschooled as well. Luckily, I only did it for two years when I was wee."

 

 

I know, right?

 

The socialization tripe... same crap, different article. :glare:

[LMD]

I can just see it:

 

A few years as 'the worlds best ever teacher'

Massive burnout

Disgruntled with 'the system'

Tries to change said system

Massive burnout again

Has own children

Shudders at thought of sending little precious into the system

Picks up copy of WTM

Eats own words ;)

[funschooler5]

Wow, that article was all over the place. I don't understand what point she was trying to make.:confused:

[AvasMom]

I can just see it:

 

A few years as 'the worlds best ever teacher'

Massive burnout

Disgruntled with 'the system'

Tries to change said system

Massive burnout again

Has own children

Shudders at thought of sending little precious into the system

Picks up copy of WTM

Eats own words ;)

 

:iagree: She needs a good doses of John Taylor Gatto.

[tex-mex]

I literally LOLed at the thought of an education degree as "grueling."

:lol::lol:

So true!!!

 

I am a credentialized teacher from CA and let me share that my classes as an undergrad and graduate student were complete snoozefests. I graduated with a 3.33 gpa as an undergrad -- average -- but all of the classes for preparing me for teaching were THEORY classes. (Graduate gpa was 4.0)

 

Once student teaching was over (easy with supervised guidance and on your own for a brief time), I was in a classroom all by myself. No help, no clue, and expected to get high test scores. That first year of teaching was an eye opener. ;) The degree? Meh. A piece of cake.

[Parrothead]

She wants to discuss South Carolina! :lol: I believe they are at the bottom of the national education ranks! They pushed one of my brothers through school without bothering to help him with his dyslexia and teaching him how to read. He's 30yrs old and can BARELY read (aka, I know 1st graders that read better than him). And she wants to complain about oversight of South Carolina homeschoolers?! How about removing the log out of the eye of the system before worrying about the speck amoungst the homeschoolers?

I graduated HS in SC. I learned everything I knew at graduation before I moved to SC from NY.

[mommaduck]

I graduated HS in SC. I learned everything I knew at graduation before I moved to SC from NY.

and that was probably a very good thing! Lord knows, you might not have learned it in SC!

[Ester Maria]

Aw, she is so cute.

She reminds me of my daughters, they talk like this when they really, really have an important opinion on a topic they do not really know about, and add to it the fervor of the youth, so it ends up opinionated nonsense. :lol:

 

Only... my kids are young teens. :glare:

... And they are not talking about something which is their profession - education in this lady's case - in such a superficial, populistic way without any sound argumentation or documentation...

 

Hmm.

Probably not so cute after all. :lol:

 

On a more serious note, I actually understand some snippets of her reasoning (IF we stick to a nice theoretical model in which PS teachers actually know what they teach and there are no fluff degrees, etc. - the argument in favor of a greater control is one that I myself have made several times), but her conclusions and solutions are absurd.

[DawnM]

So far the article as a 1 star rating out of 130+ votes.

 

We ALL need to get over there and at least vote on the rating, if not comment and bombard the site with home schooling Moms' wisdom!

[mcconnellboys]

Written by a grad student with no facts to back it up....

[Kirch]

I can just see it:

 

A few years as 'the worlds best ever teacher'

Massive burnout

Disgruntled with 'the system'

Tries to change said system

Massive burnout again

Has own children

Shudders at thought of sending little precious into the system

Picks up copy of WTM

Eats own words ;)

 

Perfection!:D

 

I just wish I could tell who the wtm commenters are. I've recognized one or two.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kirch

[ravinlunachick]

Even though I am a Clemson grad, go Tigers, it is sad to see this kind of BS come out of University of South Carolina.

 

Imagine how I feel; both dh and I are USC graduates, and I'm an education major!

Edited January 27, 2012 by ravinlunachick

[angela in ohio]

Me too.:D Then I thought about the possibility that she was talking about high school teachers--I can imagine that getting a degree and being certified to teach high school math or science might be grueling. Or at least more so than elementary ed. I figured it wouldn't hurt to let that issue go since there are many more problems with her article!

 

Not grueling, but just as challenging as a degree in whatever subject area. In my case right now, that's math and computer science. I have to take all of the math courses a math major takes, and they aren't always easy, but the education classes themselves are ridiculously easy. An elementary ed degree is much easier, though.

 

Dh has his Master's degree in special ed admin, and he is in his last class for his Specialist's. Definitely not grueling. :lol: And the quality of students has been shocking.

[In The Great White North]

For my M.ed degree I was required to take graduate level history, political science, sociology and English classes. Educational Psychology required a body of research that was grueling at times. While the typical course just on education is not usually difficult, the practicums and research papers were not fluff.

 

Fwiw, I do not agree with most of this graduate student's article. However, to imply that just anyone can walk in at a university and complete graduate level work in education or any other degree is way off base as well.

 

That's true. Before I could just walk in and complete the graduate level work, I had to pay $10,000. (Twenty years ago - it's probably more now.)

[runmiarun]

@

Edited January 27, 2012 by runmiarun
Never mind.

[Chris in VA]

I guess what boggles me is the feeling I got reading the comment of, "well, we can't *stop* you from pulling your kid out, it's your right, but you still owe us...the system is broken, you owe us to fix it"

 

Uh, I've never bought the idea that I owe my kids to anyone. The system is broken, no doubt...but the way to fix it isn't something a handful of parents can manage. It's a government run issue, and the solution is with the government.

 

So many hs'd parents *have* tried to fix things, only to realize that pulling their child out is the only real, concrete option they have.

 

The system isn't interested in being fixed. Too many have a vested interest in things staying just as they are. Fixing the system would likely mean that administrators take a pay cut, etc. Can't have that.

 

I don't think schools are underfunded. I think the funds are mismanaged and allocated poorly.

 

Amen, Sister. :iagree: with everything you said.

[Pink and Green Mom]

Ha! I would expect nothing less from this quality institution!!! :D

 

(I am a Clemson fan, though!)

 

:lol: I was just coming here to say the same thing myself...:D

[mommaduck]

[Carrie12345]

Writers need tough skins. Debates need facts.

[AvasMom]

Writers need tough skins. Debates need facts.

 

And the author's little friend is showing her age.

 

To Guardian: Pouting is not a very grown up thing to do, sweetie. You and Leia are both going to need thicker skins. She wanted debate and she got it. Now stop sulking. Many of those comments were posted prior to the article being linked here. May I refer you to the time stamp on both the thread and the post comments?

 

I also find the "fundamentalists" comment to be quite comical. See, you still haven't learned a thing about checking your assumptions, have you? :glare:

 

Also, you will be most likely receiving plenty of corrective responses. That is not an attack. You can either learn from them or continue your huff. Your choice.

[DawnM]

Well, this may just reflect the ineptitude of one student and not the school as a whole.

 

My Dh went to USC, but the real one, in California! :lol:

 

Dawn

 

Imagine how I feel; both dh and I are USC graduates, and I'm an education major!

[Slipper]

She's also starting to worry that some of the commentators are extreme enough to track her down and harm her property or even her personally. If there are people here that nuts, you can be ****ed sure that I'll be standing right next to her, and you will pay a price for your insolence.

 

 

Really? I can assure you that people are not so annoyed that they are ready to threaten the author's home and hearth. That sounds a bit dramatic. (And honestly, way more dramatic than what I'd expect from a professional).

 

What's interesting to me is that there were not that many (two I believe) comments supporting her position. Surely she has teacher friends who agree with her and are willing to anonymously support her?

 

She wrote an opinion piece. She received opinions.

[Parrothead]

I am a close friend of the author of this article. She doesn't know I'm posting here, and would probably tell me not to if she did, but I can no longer stand by and passively observe what you people are doing to her.

We are doing nothing to her. Number one rule of writing in a public forum of any kind is to learn to accept criticism.

 

We couldn't figure out why a small paper's website, where any given article rarely gets double digit comments if any at all, would suddenly explode into over a hundred comments. I had my suspicions, and a quick search brought me here.

Interesting.

 

Leia is a wonderful woman, who just wants to do the right thing for children. She taught in the public schools (in poor districts, at that), and was disheartened by the burdens placed upon teachers by both parents and administration. She felt as if she was failing all the students under her care. That is why she entered the graduate program that she did; she wants to reform the public school system through public policy. It's a pipe dream, most likely, but she can't just stand by and watch everything crumble without taking some kind of action.

And these problems are because of inept homeschooling parents? It is very rare that a homeschooler has much interaction with public school systems. I'm not sure how a logical person can come to the conclusion that "an uneducated parent" who's child(ren) do not attend public school are standing in the way of reforming public schools.

 

Your friend made an ill-researched attack on homeschoolers. That has nothing to do with fixing the system.

 

Here's secret number one: despite your assumptions, she's not a fan of teacher's unions - she thinks they get in the way of reform - and she'd like to end tenure. She thinks of the children's needs first.

Then she needs to work toward that and stop spreading unsubstantiated lies about homeschoolers. Those are the types of things she needs to address in her writings.

The point of her article was to spark debate. Sometimes, doing so requires presenting an opinion that is more extreme than what is actually held. Of course she doesn't believe in ending homeschooling; that much should be blatantly obvious from the contradictory language in her article. She does believe in changing the law to create greater accountability for EVERYONE, public, private, and home school teacher alike.

No, it wasn't blatantly obvious. Her article is an opinion piece aimed at homeschoolers only.

 

Here's secret number two: that article isn't what she wrote. I've seen the original, and the version that was published was heavily edited into the sloppy mess that was presented. She also didn't write the headline or teaser, which anyone who's worked in periodical publishing can tell you is a common practice.

Then she needs you to go complain to the editors of the publication for misrepresenting her so badly.

 

The opinion page only allows for ~300 or ~500 word articles. Despite your demands for research and "citations" (which I'm sure you would have discounted anyways), the small word count doesn't always allow for it to be included in the piece. The research was done though, and submitted to the editor for fact checking.

Several commenters were able to link national studies in their comments. It isn't that difficult nor does it take up much room.

 

Now, those are the facts of the situation. Now, to get to the reason I'm bothering to post here:

 

You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

No, we shouldn't. We are a group of homeschooling parents who were minding our own business when we got slammed as "uneducated parents" in a public forum. We shouldn't have to take that without a rebuttal.

 

If you want to disagree with what she said, that's perfectly fine. That's why she wrote the article in the first place. She wanted - hungered for, really - an open debate on the issue.

Then she should learn to write an argumentative paper with citations instead of an uninformed opinion piece.

 

Instead, what she got was page after page of people calling her stupid, insulting her writing, her choice of career, saying cruel and untrue things about her personally. I had to stand there and watch her as her spirit plummeted from the barrage of hatred aimed at her, thanks to this forum and whoever else your little network of single-minded fundamentalists passed the link on to.

This group is far from "single-minded fundamentalists." Your stereotypes are showing. And you are not doing your credibility any good.

 

She was hurt, and more deeply than she wants to admit. I can see it in her eyes however, and quite frankly I hate every single one of you people for doing that to her. She's thinking about quitting the paper, if this is the sort of "debate" she can expect to see.

Yes, this is the sort of debate those types of opinion pieces bring about. If she wanted to debate she could have done so with well researched citations and logically thought out arguments instead of attacking.

 

She's also starting to worry that some of the commentators are extreme enough to track her down and harm her property or even her personally. If there are people here that nuts, you can be ****ed sure that I'll be standing right next to her, and you will pay a price for your insolence.

Really? You are a piece of work. We have kids to raise and educate. We have homes and spouses to care for. Who the bloody H3ll has time (or even the inclination) to track down some hair-brained nitwit and harm her over her idiotic writings? Your imagination is running overtime.

 

 

Here's secret number three: your precious homeschooling system isn't perfect. For every success story you present, I can counter with a failure. My mother, a librarian, has a whole list of absurd stories regarding home school kids who are either socially maladjusted or dangerously misinformed about basic facts of the world.

Sure. I'm so sure you can. :rolleyes:

 

Leia was brave enough to put out an opinion under her name, with her picture, for the public to see. You all hide behind pseudonyms, posting anonymously with the protection it brings you. The lot of you are a bunch of cowards, and I'm perfectly willing to tell you that to your face as well. Let's see you display that kind of character, because I doubt you will.

This is something she should have thought of before writing for a publication open to public consumption. The internet is forever. Maybe she will learn a thing or two. I did notice you didn't post your attack under your name. Pot. Kettle.

 

You like to go on and on about how your way is superior, how homeschooling results in better students and better people. Quite frankly, if this is the sort of behavior that homeschooling results in, I'm glad I didn't have to go through it.

You are entitled to your opinion. Again, no one here asked to be attacked publicly in a news publication nor did we ask that you come here and continue the attack. Seems like you and your friend are the ones with the bad manners.

 

 

You owe Leia an apology. I don't expect her to ever get one, and my presumption is that you're going to attack me as well for daring to defend her, but you owe her one all the same.

Don't hold your breath.

[dangermom]

 

We couldn't figure out why a small paper's website, where any given article rarely gets double digit comments if any at all, would suddenly explode into over a hundred comments. I had my suspicions, and a quick search brought me here.

 

That happens whenever anyone posts an online article about homeschooling. Homeschoolers (in general, not just us at the Hive) watch out for articles like this and respond because we are such a falsely-stereotyped group.

 

Instead, what she got was page after page of people calling her stupid, insulting her writing, her choice of career, saying cruel and untrue things about her personally. I had to stand there and watch her as her spirit plummeted from the barrage of hatred aimed at her, thanks to this forum and whoever else your little network of single-minded fundamentalists passed the link on to.

If you check the times, you'll see that WTMers didn't show up until near the end. Most of the comments were not from here. Mine is near the end and is the one that has a letter from a 6th-grader. She happened to see me reading the article and was very upset by it, so she wanted to write a response and I let her.

 

As a matter of fact I was not thrilled to see the pile-on and insults that resulted from your friend's article, but that's life on the Internet. You put your words out there and you deal with the consequences. If the paper's editors screwed up the article, you need to take it up with them. By maligning homeschooling in an ill-informed and sloppy way, your friend invited criticism. Better criticism (and that does exist, and we've been known to engage in it) would have helped a lot--trotting out the same old tired thing again just feels really insulting to a lot of folks--not to mention the part where she actually did insult homeschooling parents.

Edited January 28, 2012 by dangermom

[elegantlion]

I am a close friend of the author of this article. She doesn't know I'm posting here, and would probably tell me not to if she did, but I can no longer stand by and passively observe what you people are doing to her.

 

 

 

The point of her article was to spark debate. Sometimes, doing so requires presenting an opinion that is more extreme than what is actually held. Of course she doesn't believe in ending homeschooling; that much should be blatantly obvious from the contradictory language in her article. She does believe in changing the law to create greater accountability for EVERYONE, public, private, and home school teacher alike.

 

 

The opinion page only allows for ~300 or ~500 word articles. Despite your demands for research and "citations" (which I'm sure you would have discounted anyways), the small word count doesn't always allow for it to be included in the piece. The research was done though, and submitted to the editor for fact checking.

 

Now, those are the facts of the situation. Now, to get to the reason I'm bothering to post here:

 

You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

If you want to disagree with what she said, that's perfectly fine. That's why she wrote the article in the first place. She wanted - hungered for, really - an open debate on the issue.

 

Instead, what she got was page after page of people calling her stupid, insulting her writing, her choice of career, saying cruel and untrue things about her personally. I had to stand there and watch her as her spirit plummeted from the barrage of hatred aimed at her, thanks to this forum and whoever else your little network of single-minded fundamentalists passed the link on to.

 

She was hurt, and more deeply than she wants to admit. I can see it in her eyes however, and quite frankly I hate every single one of you people for doing that to her. She's thinking about quitting the paper, if this is the sort of "debate" she can expect to see.

 

Here's secret number three: your precious homeschooling system isn't perfect. For every success story you present, I can counter with a failure. My mother, a librarian, has a whole list of absurd stories regarding home school kids who are either socially maladjusted or dangerously misinformed about basic facts of the world.

 

You owe Leia an apology. I don't expect her to ever get one, and my presumption is that you're going to attack me as well for daring to defend her, but you owe her one all the same.

 

1. Debate is good, but to properly debate you need facts to back up your assertions.

 

2. Research? Okay, but the arguments she presents are stereotypical anti homeschooling arguments that have been around for years. They are tired and old.

 

3. You people: Homeschooling is vast and diverse group. They run the gamut from unschoolers to parents who provide a rigorous teaching.

 

4. Little network of single-minded fundamentalists? :lol::lol: See, that itself is tired stereotype of homeschoolers. This board is only a segment of homeschoolers and we run the gamut from preacher's wives to atheists to pagans to heathens and everything in between. Our socio-economic levels have the same broad spectrum. Our locations are all over the globe, this is not just US homeschooling board. We also have a huge variety of current/previous occupations on this board, teachers included.

 

5. I'm sorry she was hurt, but really what did she expect? When something is published on the Internet is presumption of privacy disappears. How do you think all those silly videos go viral? When you state an opinion, you must be willing to stand by it. Sometimes you realize that maybe you were speaking about things of which you knew little. We have an expression here about putting on your big girl panties and dealing with it. It's hard sometimes, we all should have good friend that go to bat for us. Writing can be a very humbling job sometimes.

 

If the piece was not published as she submitted I would be returning to the editor and sharing her frustration. It's her byline, it's her picture with the article. Also part of learning is realizing that not everyone has your best interests at heart, even people you work with. As shown, she is the one that will reap the consequences when something is published. It should be as she presented it, so she can stand by it and not blame poor editing.

 

6. Homeschooling is not perfect. It would be ludicrous to think so. It's not for everyone and every family. I am homeschooling an average student, but homeschooling is the best educational opportunity for him for a variety of reasons.

 

It is admirable your friend wants to see change in the educational system. I think many of us here would agree. A wise person once told me that you don't have to tear down one thing to make a similar thing seem better. Many of us read the article and found it to be the same tired stereo-typical blanket arguments against homeschooling. If she truly wants to see change, I would suggest obtaining a better understanding of homeschooling (not just based upon the comments in her article). Seek to understand, it is much deeper and diverse than her article suggests.

 

I hope everyone has a friend like you, willing to stand up for them. Apology? I don't know, that might be where the big girl panties come on. If she is entitled to voice her opinion, so are we. I hope she uses this "fiasco" as a learning tool. Education is important, I think that is one thing everyone would agree on. How we get our children a quality education may always be a matter of debate. Homeschooling is a valid choice, and many here are willing to debate too.

Edited January 28, 2012 by elegantlion

[Mrs Mungo]

Another yawn-inducing stereo-type filled argument that is lean in the facts department. Birds of a feather.

 

FYI, this article has been linked on many a homeschool forum and the facebook profile of nearly every homeschooler that I know. Only a handful of people from this forum are on my facebook. This forum is hardly responsible for all of those posts. But, you needed a scapegoat, someone to lash out at, so here you are.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Mergath]

 

She's also starting to worry that some of the commentators are extreme enough to track her down and harm her property or even her personally. If there are people here that nuts, you can be ****ed sure that I'll be standing right next to her, and you will pay a price for your insolence.

 

 

 

Oh, please. Spare us the drama. What are you, twelve? You say she wanted debate, and then claim she feels physically threatened because she started a debate. So which is it?

 

And, you know, I don't think I've ever been called a single-minded fundamentalist before, seeing as how I'm a Pagan and a liberal, pro-choice, tree-hugging democrat.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

"In order to be licensed for instruction, public school teachers are required to have at least a bachelor's degree, sufficient course background in each subject they are to teach and time spent as an instructor under an experienced teacher. As someone who has gone through it before, I can tell you that it's a grueling process. To believe that an uneducated parent who holds only a high school degree can teach just as effectively as a fully-trained educator is ludicrous."

 

I have refrained from commenting before this, because, frankly, I didn't think the "article" even merited a response. However, Guardian, before you accuse others of ad hominem attacks, I suggest you re-read the above paragraph to see that your friend started it by calling homeschooling parents uneducated. She needed to do some research prior to writing this article. Just because the law states that a homeschooling parent only needs to have a high school degree, doesn't mean that the majority of homeschooling parents have only a high school degree. Many of us are former public and private school teachers with degrees in education. My sister is one. I started off my college career with a desire to get a teaching certificate, but after three laughable education classes, I dropped that major when I wasn't learning anything remotely helpful to the actual process of teaching. The final clincher was when I learned that I would be graded on how to use a mimeograph machine- really? Talk about ludicrous. The process of getting a medical doctor degree is grueling. Getting a bachelor's degree in education is no more grueling than getting a bachelor's degree in any other field. I have a Master's Degree in a foreign language, and I know many other homeschooling moms who have bachelor's and other graduate degrees.

 

Here's a little anecdote from my best friend, who is a marvelous high school English and Drama teacher: My friend was grandfathered in under the old policy that did not require teachers to have a Master's degree. After several years, though, she decided to get one anyway. I asked her if she was getting it in education. She gave me a derisive snort and said, "If I'm going to spend the time getting a Master's Degree, it's going to be in something REAL." This came straight out of the mouth of a certified teacher, who has been teaching in public schools for over 15 years. I'm not knocking people who put effort into getting graduate degrees in education, I'm just saying that our system of educating future educators is broken and needs a serious overhaul. I found it very difficult to take your friend's assumptions seriously after that particular paragraph in her article.

 

And without having facts and figures, let's just assume that many homeschool parents have "only" a high school diploma. That doesn't mean they are not capable of researching and locating the best curricula for their children. That doesn't mean they are unable to teach their own children how to read and how to do basic mathematical functions. Has your friend studied history at all? Does she know how relatively modern the idea of compulsory education is? Does she not know that for thousands of generations before the mid 19th century, parents were teaching children at home all of the skills they needed to succeed in the world?

 

And furthermore, I do agree with your friend that more accountability is needed. But, I believe that more accountability is needed from the public schools toward the parents. I had my kids in public school before I pulled them out to homeschool. I was given very little information about my children's teachers, or about the curriculum my children would be using. When I asked these questions, I was treated as a meddler and pariah. As a homeschooling parent, my state requires me to sign an oath that I would teach my children a long laundry list of subjects. I received no such guarantee from the school system that they would teach these same subjects. Nor did I see any proof that they were even engaged in teaching a few of these very same subjects that I'm required to cover at home. I want some accountability from my school system that I support with my tax money. Most parents desire to do right by their children and give their children opportunities to succeed. Before you start clambering for accountability from homeschool parents, do some investigation into the test scores, college acceptance and chosen professions of homeschoolers first.

Edited January 28, 2012 by thescrappyhomeschooler

[Parrothead]

You owe Leia an apology. I don't expect her to ever get one, and my presumption is that you're going to attack me as well for daring to defend her, but you owe her one all the same.

Here is a challenge for you and your friend. I'm sure the two of you will do it in the same manner you are sure you will be attacked for defending your friend.

 

Research. Modern homeschooling has been around since the late 1960. Those children are grown and having children of their own. it is even conceivable that some of those early homeschoolers have young grandchildren. Find out about them and all the others in between.

 

Get the numbers. Compare drop out rates of public/private school kids to homeschoolers. Compare the college acceptance rates. Compare how many entrepreneurs are homeschoolers. Compare incarceration rates. Compare teen pregnancy rates. Compare substance abuse rates. Compare testing rates. Compare suicide rates. Compare SAT scores.

 

When you get done, and have a better grasp of what homeschoolers often achieve come back. Then we can debate homeschooling all you and your friend want.

 

I double dog dare you. ;)

[nmoira]

 

Another yawn-inducing stereo-type filled argument. Birds of a feather.

Being thought of as part of an insolent cabal makes me feel like a teenager again.

[wapiti]

If the author wants to learn about homeschoolers and homeschooling, perhaps she ought to hang out here a bit and/or read the WTM. It sounds like she's in the middle of learning a lesson - better to learn now than in twenty or thirty more years.

 

ETA, if the author should return to read responses, I strongly encourage her to read Ester's responses below. There are several significant nuggets of wisdom from which she would benefit if she were to read carefully (and calmly).

Edited January 28, 2012 by wapiti

[Ester Maria]

The point of her article was to spark debate. Sometimes, doing so requires presenting an opinion that is more extreme than what is actually held. Of course she doesn't believe in ending homeschooling; that much should be blatantly obvious from the contradictory language in her article.

I understand the point about calculated exaggeration at times in order to start a discussion. However, I disagree with you that it was blatant from her writing that she does not believe in ending homeschooling.

 

In order for the discussion to become constructive, here are the points which I, personally, have found problematic:

 

1. "While I believe that there are some parents who are phenomenal teachers, there are also way too many who are awful and incapable of teaching their children the basic knowledge that schools are supposed to supply."

 

This is a factual statement with which I agree. The part that is missing, however, is that the same things happen on the other side of the fence too. It is not necessarily a question of the modality of schooling, but simply the fact that SOME people are good educators, and SOME people are not.

This is actually the point that has been frequently brought up on these boards *and* stated by the owner of these boards in one of those discussions too, if I recall correctly:

There are public school teachers that do their job well. And here are those that do not.

There are private school teachers that do their job well. And there are those that do not.

There are homeschool educators that do their job well. And there are those that do not.

 

See my point? It is not *necessarily* the fault of the modality of schooling, but a simple statement that whatever you look at it, you will find success stories and failure stories. Homeschooling has certainly failed a number of children. So has public education. So has private education. For all sorts of reasons. Ms Cain is certainly aware of it, but she does not explicate it in her writing, and that is bound to provoke a reaction because it will make things seem as though she is painting each system with a wide brush, only choosing the color to make one system pink and the other one black.

 

2. "To believe that an uneducated parent who holds only a high school degree can teach just as effectively as a fully-trained educator is ludicrous."

 

Another thing I disagree with, because from a factual standpoint, there have been cases which succeeded in doing so, so it is *possible*. Ms Cain may believe that it is a rarity, an exception rather than a norm (and, who knows, might be right if we talk about high school educated parents), but she must state so, rather than dismiss a possibility of something which HAS happened in practice.

 

Furthermore, I am far from sure than at uneducated parent with a high school diploma is that far away from somebody with an education degree. I would fully agree if Ms Cain spoke about *subject experts*, but 'vague' education degrees do not hold subject matter expertise per se, and much of what is taught as a part of them is essentially crowd management. In one on one kind of learning, the "logistics" part of teaching becomes secondary and if one has knowledge of what one teaches and can put themselves into the mind of a student, there is no problem. There are plenty of professional educators who do not have expertise in what they teach, and the only thing which truly sets them apart from homeschoolers is that they are equipped to work with groups and in dynamic systems of higher complexity and with greater variety inside a classroom. For homeschoolers, that logistics is not relevant (typically), although it is always useful to learn about basic child psychology, forms of learning and general education theories - which I can assure you, from my two and half years on these boards, that a wonderful lot of posters here *do*. Not only *did*. They actively continue to work on their development as educators, seek help where needed, and even outsource many areas which they feel they are not competent to handle. Homeschooling typically does not mean that a parent does 100% of the job - there are online classes, dual enrollment, co-ops, private lessons... a whole variety of things which homeschoolers regularly mix and match to provide an optimum for their children.

 

3. "They often only socialize with others within their socio-economic status and are unprepared to deal with their college roommates, cubicle neighbors and even bosses. Without learning diversity, every single day they are being denied the skills necessary to deal with different lifestyles or beliefs that others may hold."

 

Here we have again an example of 'selective' reasoning. These things are not endemic to homeschooling. Is Ms Cain equally critical of selective private schools which an unabashed educational agenda, where children presumably often also do not get a lot of diversity?

Furthermore, it does not necessarily hold true. Cultural or physical seclusion is not within the description of homeschooling - it is something that MAY, but also MAY NOT be a part of the picture. And not only for homeschoolers, but for a lot of American subcultures. Ms Cain may take a position that she is against it, that a nation should attend school together and not be divided this way, but then she must apply her reasoning consistently if she wants to be taken, for lack of a better expression, "seriously". If she believes a way to solve some issues is by eliminating choice (as it happens in some other countries) - which is a perfectly legitimate attitude in and of itself - she must not apply her reasoning selectively.

 

4. " Leaving our future in incapable hands is irresponsible, and Americans are failing when it comes to the relaxed home-school system."

 

The problem here is with a blanket characterization of people without education degrees who dare to educate in some form as 'incapable' (they may, but also may not be) and this is what some people might find particularly hurtful. The second part of this quote is the one that needs some kind of a further elaboration (other than using inconsistent arguments of the #3 kind) to get her point across. What shows that they are failing, who is a measure of a failure, how can they "fail" if a system is not regulated, what does she mean by "relaxed" home school system, what does she mean by a system in the first place, etc.

 

5. "Let's require more formal education and training from parents who wish to home school"

 

This is an example of a legitimate attitude. She perhaps should have taken *this* point and made an article out of that, elaborating on it further. Although, I would personally suggest European-style mandatory yearly examinations of children rather than insisting on a piece of a paper that a parent holds.

[Ester Maria]

Here's secret number two: that article isn't what she wrote. I've seen the original, and the version that was published was heavily edited into the sloppy mess that was presented.

She should have requested the article for the authorization before it was published. It is possible to arrange that kind of a deal, to preview an article after editing, but before publishing.

your little network of single-minded fundamentalists

Take some time to get to know these boards before you slap all the diversity of people on here with such untrue and insulting characterization. Here you will meet people from all continents, with different cultural and religious baggages, different educational agendas, in different systems as regards homeschooling oversight (there are those whose children are properly tested, for example) and - gasp! - parents of private, public, or international school children as well. In fact, not even everyone on these boards homeschools in the first place.

quite frankly I hate every single one of you people for doing that to her.

Save your "hatred" for more important things in life. Seriously. In fact, you should even save such extreme language of "I hate you" for more important things in life.

 

I totally understand why this may be unsettling for her, but nobody is "doing" anything to her. People are disagreeing, or even ridiculing, what they read, and it falls within the realm of the freedom of expression. People disagree with or ridicule many things read, hear, watch...

She's also starting to worry that some of the commentators are extreme enough to track her down and harm her property or even her personally. If there are people here that nuts, you can be ****ed sure that I'll be standing right next to her, and you will pay a price for your insolence.

Not to be rude, but people have lives. Your friend is probably imagining that this is much more important on a big scale of things than it actually is - but believe me, within a week, it will be old news, and within few months nobody will probably remember it anyway. Just like everything else on the internet.

 

Likewise, I cannot imagine anyone who would be actually bored enough, or disturbed enough by an article they read online, to attempt to "track" people. I am, however, personally insulted by your baseless insinuation that there might be such people here. If somebody threatens her, that is another story - but ridicule, as unpleasant as it is, is a wildly different thing from serious threats. If she believes there is libel going on, providing untrue information about her personally, she should contact the administrator of the website immediately and request the removal of the offending material. If she believes she is being seriously threatened by a particular poster, and if there are actual grounds for consideration it might be true, same thing, and the administrator can even provide the relevant authorities with their IP if there are serious, legally problematic grounds. This is actually done in some cases - the internet is not THAT anonymous as we tend to think. If somebody were to threaten her, if somebody were to present themselves as her or if somebody were to write libeliously about her personal life or things of the kind, there could be repercussions for them, even legally. However, you cannot accuse people for simply being critical, or even for being jerks (if they are), or for writing whatever they write about themselves and their attitudes (as long as they do not provide personal information about other people or commit libel against them) - it simply does not work that way. The first rule of the internet communication is to grow a thick skin.

Here's secret number three: your precious homeschooling system isn't perfect. For every success story you present, I can counter with a failure.

Ditto for public and private schooling. :001_smile:

I do not have an impression that anyone on here is actually deluding themselves that homeschooling is "perfect". In fact, most people would say that it is not a magic bullet for every child, every situation and every family.

 

Just like the PS is not. ;)

Leia was brave enough to put out an opinion under her name, with her picture, for the public to see. You all hide behind pseudonyms, posting anonymously with the protection it brings you.

It was Ms Cain's *choice* to publish her piece of writing under her real name. She could have debated things anonymously on boards if she preferred that type of communication to a more transparent type she opted for.

Likewise, many people choose to remain anonymous, or to reveal their identity only selectively. You judging their choice as cowardice is painting with a broad brush - I see it as perfectly legitimate form of communication, and of course everybody knows that when things are anonymous, the rules of the game change (in other words, you must be taking things not with a gram, but with a kilogram of salt - and that is fine, for people who agree to that type of communication).

 

Ms Cain chose transparency as to who exactly she is, people hiding behind forum nickanames typically do not. Her choice is fine, but you cannot dictate other people's choices for your own comfort, and you ought not insinuate about their psychological make-up ("cowardice") for the reasons behind their choice. Ms Cain is free at any time to join a less transparent, less "outing" type of discussion if she feels more at ease with that - but she cannot expect for something she states *publicly* (and writing an article under her full name, willingly and knowing it will be "out there", is exactly that) to be "immune" to online criticism. Nobody who "outs" themselves is immune to criticism - *ideas* are out there for everyone to discuss and toy with. What she can and should expect is that a certain line be not crossed (the things discussed above - libel, serious threats, people misrepresenting as her, etc.) - and in a case it is, stand up for her legal rights. Her legal righths to do not include exemption from criticism or even ridicule of the ideas she posts. As anyone who has ever posted, anonymously or not, on the internet or in print, knows anyway.

 

This may be distressing for her if it is her first experience of a kind, but she will have to get used to it if she wants to continue to publicly debate things, if she has ambitions to write in her field one day, etc. If she cannot take it "psychologically", I am afraid that she will have to confine herself to less "ambitious" and more "personal" forms of communication. In fact, personally I believe that serious online discussions, but anonymous ones, might be a very good "exercise" for her on many levels, especially to learn to estimate what she can say and still feel okay with the response. She would probably fit in well here, too, since there are many people here who are willing to debate seriously - and sometimes passionately too ;) - various topics in education and child-rearing.

You like to go on and on about how your way is superior, how homeschooling results in better students and better people. Quite frankly, if this is the sort of behavior that homeschooling results in, I'm glad I didn't have to go through it.

It is not a question of superiority or inferiority, it is a question of "one size does NOT fit all". The "results" of homeschooling can be as varied as results of public schooling. There are the good and the bad guys in every modality of schooling, in every country, in every political system... Things are not black and white, and there is a very high level of understanding of that on these boards (in spite of all of the disagreements and, sometimes, hurt feelings on these boards too).

You owe Leia an apology.

I disagree that anyone is "entitled" to an apology simply because their feelings got hurt in the process of something.

If somebody feels they crossed the line, they can offer their personal apology or retract their statements without being solicited to do so by intermediaries or on-duty moralists. It has been done before on these boards, numerous times, both personally and publicly (heck, even by me ;)).

[treestarfae]

Being thought of as part of an insolent cabal makes me feel like a teenager again.

 

Lol! :)

[Ailaena]

 

Leia was brave enough to put out an opinion under her name, with her picture, for the public to see. You all hide behind pseudonyms, posting anonymously with the protection it brings you. The lot of you are a bunch of cowards, and I'm perfectly willing to tell you that to your face as well. Let's see you display that kind of character, because I doubt you will.

...

 

You owe Leia an apology. I don't expect her to ever get one, and my presumption is that you're going to attack me as well for daring to defend her, but you owe her one all the same.

 

 

 

Secret Number 4: Anyone brave enough to put out an opinion under her own name should fully expect the prospect of notoriety that comes with it and not complain about it.

 

Secret Number 5: People with only one post defending a specific person in a specific situation are usually the person in question defending themselves.

 

 

I am very sorry that Leia does not really understand how the Interwebz works yet. Is that enough of an apology? The world is big and scary and people will always rise to a debate when the only requirement is an opinion.

 

 

And for the record, I didn't actually read the article or the responses (for the first time ever); I just assumed it was the same as all the others and was bored with it before I started.

 

 

eta: I totally should have read what Ester Maria wrote and just deferred to her :P

Edited January 28, 2012 by Ailaena

[Mrs Mungo]

Being thought of as part of an insolent cabal makes me feel like a teenager again.

 

:lol:

[dangermom]

You know, if Ms. Cain hungered for a debate on the topic of homeschooling, a student newspaper with a comment function was probably not the best choice. Maybe it would be better if she looked around for a more open format--like one of these here message boards that we have on this Internet thing! And she could ask some honest questions and get started in a smaller way. That would probably work better as far as debate goes.