Christian beliefs about Christmas question

[soonermomma]

I'm not sure if this is controversial, but I just don't know who else to ask about this....

 

One of my friends I grew up with told me she is no longer celebrating Christmas because she believes that Jesus does not approve. She said it is a pagan holiday, and that it all stemmed from worshiping other gods and trees. She believes that by celebrating Christmas, we are putting another god before our GOD, and therefore breaking the first commandment. (She won't even go shopping with me since I'm shopping for Christmas gifts.)

 

I do know that December 25th is not the date that Jesus was actually born, but in my family I have always centered the holiday around the birth of Jesus. Of course we have a tree and we do santa presents with the kids are little, but I have always taught my kids the true meaning of Christmas is Jesus' birth.

 

My question to her was if by celebrating Christmas we are sinning, then why would churches celebrate Christmas and put up Christmas trees. She said that the preachers just haven't done enough research.

 

I'm really confused by all of this information. I just have a hard time believing that we are going to hell for celebrating Christmas (which she said she honestly believes we will), even for those who celebrate it without bringing Jesus or Christianity into it at all. I know when I put up a tree I'm not worshiping the tree or any random god that is not my GOD.

 

I do realize that a lot of this is personal belief, but if you have an opinion about this or any facts/scriptures you can pass on I would greatly appreciate it.

[Liza Lee]

I just have a hard time believing that we are going to hell for celebrating Christmas (which she said she honestly believes we will),

 

I would ask her how someone is supposed to be saved. Because if she believes that celebrating the birth of the saviour is a sin worthy of going to hell, I don't think I would have any area of agreement with her about salvation. Her "faith" sounds like something that is totally dependent on works.

[The Girls' Mom]

For one, if she believes celebrating Christmas will send you to hell, she needs to re-examine what salvation is.

 

I know that there are some traditions that have been incorporated into Christmas that have pagan origins. However, there are many non-holiday traditions that have seeped into christianity that have pagan roots. I feel like, for us, it is a celebration...that's it. We don't treat it as Jesus' birthday (because it isn't). We do some advent stuff, but over all it is mostly a chance to spend time with family and to give them gifts. We celebrate Jesus on a regular basis, not just on December 25.

[LinRTX]

Well, I firmly believe you will not go to hell for celebrating Christmas. If Jesus is the center of your life at all times (not just Christmas) and you believe he died to atone for your sins, then you are saved and nothing will snatch you out of his hands, so you will spend eternity with him,

 

As to whether celebrating Christmas is wrong, all I can say is only if it is to you. In my family, we call this a deckchair issue. No on can agree on how the chairs should be arranged, but everyone agrees that they should be there.

 

All the "rules" Christians make up can never be followed. That's why salvation is by grace through faith and is not dependent on how you celebrate Christmas.

 

That is probably all very unclear, but I hope it helps.

 

Linda

[chiguirre]

It's not a new idea. The Puritans outlawed Christmas in Massachussetts. That's part of why they came to America, to get away from all the Anglican practices they didn't approve of in England.

[TravelingChris]

Yes, whether you celebrate Christmas or not is not a salvation issue at all. The great majority of Christian Churches celebrate Christmas. I knew someone who came to be a Christian specifically because of a church having Christmas celebrations- the music of Christmas led him to church and then he started listening and that led to belief. This man is simply one of many who have come to Christ because of Christmas and Advent celebrations. The biblical passage that says we can celebrate Christmas are a few- first of all the stories in Luke2:8-20 and Matthew 2 about Christ's birth. The shepherds came, the angels sang, and then later the Wise Men came. Also in Romans 14;23, while about food, can really also relate to Christmas celebrations. If, for you, Christmas celebrations are a stumbling block, don't participate. But I think that almost all Christians get blessings from Christmas celebrations and not stumbling.

[milovany]

Apologies if this sounds gruff, but it's your friend that hasn't done enough research. She needs to look into the history of the church and see that the nativity of Christ has been celebrated as a feast and with liturgies from quite early on and it's only been in very late in time that this idea that Christmas is pagan and God does not approve came up. I'm sure she's basing her "study" on the "Bible alone," but that can't be done outside the context of the church/men that wrote the words. What the words mean, how they are interpreted, belongs to THEM, not to someone sitting down with a pencil and a concordance 2000 years after the fact.

[mommaduck]

Apologies if this sounds gruff, but it's your friend that hasn't done enough research. She needs to look into the history of the church and see that the nativity of Christ has been celebrated as a feast and with liturgies from quite early on and it's only been in very late in time that this idea that Christmas is pagan and God does not approve came up. I'm sure she's basing her "study" on the "Bible alone," but that can't be done outside the context of the church/men that wrote the words. What the words mean, how they are interpreted, belongs to THEM, not to someone sitting down with a pencil and a concordance 2000 years after the fact.

:iagree:I used to be anti-Christmas also. We now celebrate :)

[gardenmom5]

I'm not sure if this is controversial, but I just don't know who else to ask about this....

 

One of my friends I grew up with told me she is no longer celebrating Christmas because she believes that Jesus does not approve. She said it is a pagan holiday, and that it all stemmed from worshiping other gods and trees. She believes that by celebrating Christmas, we are putting another god before our GOD, and therefore breaking the first commandment. (She won't even go shopping with me since I'm shopping for Christmas gifts.)

 

I do know that December 25th is not the date that Jesus was actually born, but in my family I have always centered the holiday around the birth of Jesus. Of course we have a tree and we do santa presents with the kids are little, but I have always taught my kids the true meaning of Christmas is Jesus' birth.

 

My question to her was if by celebrating Christmas we are sinning, then why would churches celebrate Christmas and put up Christmas trees. She said that the preachers just haven't done enough research.

 

I'm really confused by all of this information. I just have a hard time believing that we are going to hell for celebrating Christmas (which she said she honestly believes we will), even for those who celebrate it without bringing Jesus or Christianity into it at all. I know when I put up a tree I'm not worshiping the tree or any random god that is not my GOD.

 

I do realize that a lot of this is personal belief, but if you have an opinion about this or any facts/scriptures you can pass on I would greatly appreciate it.

 

I consider myself devoutly religious. I celebrate christmas, we look at lights, have presents, cookies, ornaments, etc. I don't tie all those things into some symbolism connecting them to Christ. (I've read how some use all the symbols of christmas and try to tie them into christianity. mostly I roll my eyes at that.).

 

To me, the christmas season is a time to focus on doing nice things for other people, and being more cheerful, giving, etc. If THAT isn't pleasing to Jesus, I don't know what is. I compartmentalize things from the standpoint of we do the fun stuff, AND we focus on "this is Jesus Birthday" (yea, I know, he was born in the spring. I have a niece whose birthday is in dec and she always celebrated in July.) and we read several different versions of the nativity. I have an age range of books about it I read with dudling.

 

I'd be very interested if she does easter bunnies, chicks, hats, candy, decorating, etc. To me, if you're going to complain "christmas isn't about Jesus" as a reason to not celebrate it, you'd sure better not be celebrating an egyptian pagan holiday feasting a fertility diety.

[*********]

We are Christians who do not celebrate Christmas.

 

However, I think to say that someone is going to Hell based on the fact that they celebrate Christmas is absurd.

 

JMHO.

[soonermomma]

I'd be very interested if she does easter bunnies, chicks, hats, candy, decorating, etc. To me, if you're going to complain "christmas isn't about Jesus" as a reason to not celebrate it, you'd sure better not be celebrating an egyptian pagan holiday feasting a fertility diety.

 

 

No she says she will no longer partake in Easter celebrations either. I was just flabbergasted by all of the things she said and her views! I had never heard them.

[milovany]

I was just flabbergasted by all of the things she said and her views! I had never heard them.

 

It's something that is becoming more common with some that I know/communicate with on the internet. It comes about by what I described above -- someone trying to figure out what the Bible means about something 2000 years removed from the writing (i.e., outside the context of the church that wrote the words). They don't see "Christmas" or "Easter" mentioned in the Bible, they say "Christ participated in the Jewish feasts, not Christmas and Easter," etc. But this removes what the Holy Spirit did through the church as it developed after Pentecost entirely, ignoring that the Church dealt with celebrating the Jewish feasts pretty clearly. Those feasts were pre-cursors to CHRIST, and once Christ came, the church gave us Christ-centered feasts.

Edited December 13, 2011 by milovaný

[Pamela H in Texas]

LOL Kristi,

 

Well, I agree that we should not be celebrating Christmas. There is a lot of good information about why one wouldn't. I won't bash you over the head with it though (I'm really working with my littles on not doing that to people but since this is pretty new to them....).

 

However, I think she needs to do some research about Hell next...well, maybe after her study about who has the right to judge the hearts of people :) I will promise you that you aren't going to burn in hell. The scripture is clear that that is not the end result of sin regardless :)

[joannqn]

For you:

 

Colossians 2:16 - Therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

 

Romans 14: 5-6 - One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

 

For how you should treat your friend:

 

Romans 14 in it's entirety

 

 

There are celebrations throughout the Bible. In the OT, many of them center around celebrating the festivals and feasts specifically required by God. However, David danced and others celebrated various occasions. The Psalms often talk about celebrating God's power, goodness, etc. There were various celebrations mentioned in the NT as well. I don't feel that we are held to only the types of celebrations listed in the Bible, especially if you are focusing on celebrating God and His many blessings.

[Heather in Neverland]

She needs to spend more time researching salvation and less time worried about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. An erroneous view of salvation and you could end up in hell but make-believe stories about a jolly man who brings gifts will NOT land you in hell.

[AimeeM]

We do not believe that the 25th is the exact date of Jesus' birth. We do, however, use the day to celebrate it.

We are also firmly aware that the date stems from the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice and that many Christmas traditions are, indeed, "Pagan" in origin.

We just don't see the problem in that I guess.

We celebrate and embrace diversity.

I'm not so arrogant to assume entrance into Heaven based on what I do on December 25th.

Besides that, my God is a loving God. He doesn't doom people to hell for Santa Clause and Christmas trees :D

[DianeW88]

We do not believe that the 25th is the exact date of Jesus' birth. We do, however, use the day to celebrate it.

We are also firmly aware that the date stems from the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice and that many Christmas traditions are, indeed, "Pagan" in origin.

We just don't see the problem in that I guess.

We celebrate and embrace diversity.

I'm not so arrogant to assume entrance into Heaven based on what I do on December 25th.

Besides that, my God is a loving God. He doesn't doom people to hell for Santa Clause and Christmas trees :D

 

:iagree:I think your friend is full of hooey....and I mean that in the nicest way possible. :lol:

[jennsmile]

I know of the pagan roots, and don't believe it is Christ's actual birthday.

 

But I also recognize that it is a wonderful time of year to join together and focus on doing good and helping others. If that is terrible than so be it, but I love having a season that reminds us to focus on helping others. Yes we should do it all the time but I consider like a booster shot.

 

We do celebrate Christmas, and have a special devotional from our Church.

[happyhomemaker]

For you:

 

Colossians 2:16 - Therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

 

Romans 14: 5-6 - One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

 

For how you should treat your friend:

 

Romans 14 in it's entirety

 

 

There are celebrations throughout the Bible. In the OT, many of them center around celebrating the festivals and feasts specifically required by God. However, David danced and others celebrated various occasions. The Psalms often talk about celebrating God's power, goodness, etc. There were various celebrations mentioned in the NT as well. I don't feel that we are held to only the types of celebrations listed in the Bible, especially if you are focusing on celebrating God and His many blessings.

 

:iagree::iagree: Exactly.

I would also like to add that I do not believe that objects or days have meaning in and of themselves. They have the meaning we give to them. In other words, just because a group of people brought trees into their homes in order to worship a different god than the one I worship, that does not mean that everyone who puts a tree in their home is worshipping that god. There needs to be intent behind the act That tradition can have a new meaning when others intentionally use it for another purpose.

I kow several people who choose not to celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday but have never met anyone who thought people go to hell for celebrating it. Even if Christmas is a sin, isn't that what Jesus came to save us from? Your friend needs to do some more reading on salvation basics.

[Dobela]

No she says she will no longer partake in Easter celebrations either. I was just flabbergasted by all of the things she said and her views! I had never heard them.

We are Christian and do not celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. Jesus commanded us to celebrate his death, burial, and ressurrection - not his birth. We are only told of it in scripture to prove fulfillment of OT prophecies. And, as far as celebrating his death, I believe that celebration is limited to the Lord's supper and that we should spend a few minutes on the first day of every week doing so.

 

We do however celebrate Christmas as a family holiday in the same spirit as Thanksgiving. We focus on giving, compassion, and so on.

[Ellie]

She's full of beans and/or grossly misinformed.

 

Early Christians debated Jesus's bday--I mean, rilly, rilly early. I don't think you can definitively say that you "know" that He wasn't born on December 25. :-)

 

This is an interesting article: Christmas was Never a Pagan Holiday.

[Laurie4b]

For you:

 

Colossians 2:16 - Therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

 

Romans 14: 5-6 - One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

 

For how you should treat your friend:

 

Romans 14 in it's entirety

 

 

There are celebrations throughout the Bible. In the OT, many of them center around celebrating the festivals and feasts specifically required by God. However, David danced and others celebrated various occasions. The Psalms often talk about celebrating God's power, goodness, etc. There were various celebrations mentioned in the NT as well. I don't feel that we are held to only the types of celebrations listed in the Bible, especially if you are focusing on celebrating God and His many blessings.

 

:iagree: I was off to Biblegateway to cut and paste the verses above from Rom 14, but now don't have to! It's what it's about in your heart and we're not to judge one another on how we handle these matters. Some things are clearly right and applicable to all Christians: being faithful to your spouse , for example, and some are clearly wrong--cheating on your spouse. But other things are left up to a believer's own conscience.

[Kathleen in VA]

We are Christians who do not celebrate Christmas.

 

However, I think to say that someone is going to Hell based on the fact that they celebrate Christmas is absurd.

 

JMHO.

 

:iagree:We are Christians who do not celebrate Christmas either, but I think your friend is missing the point of I Cor. 13. If we do or do not do things without love, doing or not doing those things is pointless, worthless.

 

I've heard many sermons (just recently listened to Al Martin's series on this topic on www.sermonaudio.com) and often the conclusion is that celebrating/not celebrating is a matter of Christian liberty. The idea is that if it is not strictly forbidden in scripture then it is up to each Christian to decide for himself according to to his/her own conscience. So the conclusion is that since celebrating Christmas is not mentioned in the Bible it is up to the individual to decide.

 

My understanding of scripture is that God does mention it indirectly in scripture. He does say that we are not to mix pagan belief systems with truth. The Israelites did that very often - strayed from the truth that God had revealed to them through Moses and the prophets and worshiped false gods - often mixing elements of pagan worship with true worship. God strictly forbids this. He is absolutely not pleased with it. For that reason, I do not celebrate the holiday. (Same with Easter, btw).

 

The question among believers then is, "Is celebrating Christmas mixing paganism with true Christianity?" True saved believers have come to opposite conclusions about this question. Some of us feel convicted that God is not pleased with the Christmas holiday. Others do not see the connection with pagan religions, often pointing out the distance timewise from those roots as well as their own hearts in the matter, and feel that it is a matter of Christian liberty.

 

I'm not sure who is the weaker brother in these cases. Perhaps I am the weaker brother for feeling so strongly that it is wrong. Perhaps those who celebrate are the ones with a weaker conscience because they don't consider it wrong to celebrate. I really don't know. I only know that I cannot celebrate the holiday with a clear conscience and so I don't.

 

All Christians need to bear and forbear with each other where this issue is concerned. It sounds like your friend is being a bit over zealous because she has just recently discovered the pagan roots of the holiday. Often when folks first learn something they bash others over the head with it - usually with sincerely good intentions - but it is bashing nevertheless. Hopefully, she will learn to be more kind and patient in her approach. I know I was much more headstrong about the whole issue 20 years ago than I am now. It can take time for some people to learn to be gentle and tender about this topic. It is a very emotional topic.

 

The main thing is that this is not a test of salvation. If you are resting in the righteousness of Christ, his death on your behalf, his resurrection from the dead and thus his triumph and victory over death and are not depending on your own works to gain God's favor, then you are saved. Celebrating or not celebrating Christmas is a side issue. We will know the truth of it when we see Him face to face. Until then, we need to be loving and patient with those with whom we disagree.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not sure if this is controversial, but I just don't know who else to ask about this....

 

One of my friends I grew up with told me she is no longer celebrating Christmas because she believes that Jesus does not approve. She said it is a pagan holiday, and that it all stemmed from worshiping other gods and trees. She believes that by celebrating Christmas, we are putting another god before our GOD, and therefore breaking the first commandment. (She won't even go shopping with me since I'm shopping for Christmas gifts.)

 

I do know that December 25th is not the date that Jesus was actually born, but in my family I have always centered the holiday around the birth of Jesus. Of course we have a tree and we do santa presents with the kids are little, but I have always taught my kids the true meaning of Christmas is Jesus' birth.

 

My question to her was if by celebrating Christmas we are sinning, then why would churches celebrate Christmas and put up Christmas trees. She said that the preachers just haven't done enough research.

 

I'm really confused by all of this information. I just have a hard time believing that we are going to hell for celebrating Christmas (which she said she honestly believes we will), even for those who celebrate it without bringing Jesus or Christianity into it at all. I know when I put up a tree I'm not worshiping the tree or any random god that is not my GOD.

 

I do realize that a lot of this is personal belief, but if you have an opinion about this or any facts/scriptures you can pass on I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Christmas is not really supposed to be "Jesus Birthday". It isn't, as your friend suggested, that Christians don't realize that Jesus was not likely born on Dec 25th or at this time of year even.

 

Christmas is when we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity. It is a point in the liturgical year that we set aside to especially remember this event. To understand why this is done it is really necessary to understand why the Church came to use the idea of the liturgical year.

 

Because we are creatures that live in time and space, we are limited in the things we can do and think about at the same time. That is why we set aside special time to pray or meet with the community in worship. We always should be living our lives as Christians, but if we don't set aside special times, often it gets pushed aside. It can be helpful to set aside special places for worship or prayer, even in our own home, for similar reasons.

 

It is also very helpful to set aside times to think about specific aspects of Christian belief. It can be hard to be at the same moment thinking and meditating seriously about our sinful nature and rejoicing in the Resurrection.

 

The liturgical year sets out a cycle of thinking about all these things in a logical way, and ties them to prayers and especially Scriptural readings on those themes, and to the time-line of the events of the Gospel story. It does this on a yearly cycle, a weekly cycle, and even a daily cycle.

 

Not only does this help us keep all these things in mind on a regular basis, it makes sure we don't neglect aspects of Christianity that we dislike and spend all our time on aspects we prefer, and it helps us do these things as a group. This means we should have sermons and be able to discuss these issues with our local community, and we will have their support in living out this cycle. Also, because it has been used since very early in Christian history, we can see ourselves not only as part of a local Christian community, but as participating in this cycle with many Christians who have gone before us - it helps us understand that the Church transcends time and space.

 

That is why we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity. It is the time of year when with our community we meditate on our need for a Savior, and celebrate that he has been born in such an unexpected way, and think about what it all means through Scripture, prayer, music, teaching, and fellowship together.

 

As far as the particular cultural celebrations. Yes, many of them have come from all kinds of different places. This was not done because people didn't realize that it was happening. It is because these natural symbols - an evergreen tree for example, or an egg at Easter - are perfectly good symbols of Christian truths. God created nature, and so it reflects him, and it reminds us of things about him.

 

Pre-Christian pagans did not have God's revelation. That is not their fault, it was not because they were not God's children or were evil. They did their best to worship what they knew, and sometimes their insights were profound, and sometimes they were confused. But when they saw the promise of new life in the an evergreen bough, or a symbol of rebirth in an egg, they were seeing real truth about God. Nature points to God because it is his.

 

Christians were not afraid to adopt these symbols - pagans could not make things that God had created good unholy, and more than a Satanist who uses a Bible for unholy things makes it an unholy book. Instead the Church saw that in many cases they could help the pagan peoples see that the true things they saw in the natural world were really pointing to the Christian God. And they continue to be good symbols for us, because we are physical creatures and our senses affect our minds and spirits.

 

And in some cases we are simply talking about cultural traditions that have no real connection to religion at all, pagan or Christian. Eating spicy cookies is not really a theological statement of any kind.

 

(What is really kind of ironic is that some Christians are now not celebrating Christmas, believing that it is a pagan festival or a secular commercial festival, but instead they celebrate a generic winter festival or gift giving holiday. That is, they are actually celebrating the holiday with very much the same theological perspective of ancient pagans or secular atheists.)

 

In any case, if someone suggests celebrating Christmas is going to **** someone to Hell, I am not taking their theological acumen too seriously.

[8circles]

Honestly, I'd pray for her. She is seriously lacking in discernment if she believes those things.

[TranquilMind]

I'm not sure if this is controversial, but I just don't know who else to ask about this....

 

One of my friends I grew up with told me she is no longer celebrating Christmas because she believes that Jesus does not approve. She said it is a pagan holiday, and that it all stemmed from worshiping other gods and trees. She believes that by celebrating Christmas, we are putting another god before our GOD, and therefore breaking the first commandment. (She won't even go shopping with me since I'm shopping for Christmas gifts.)

 

I do know that December 25th is not the date that Jesus was actually born, but in my family I have always centered the holiday around the birth of Jesus. Of course we have a tree and we do santa presents with the kids are little, but I have always taught my kids the true meaning of Christmas is Jesus' birth.

 

My question to her was if by celebrating Christmas we are sinning, then why would churches celebrate Christmas and put up Christmas trees. She said that the preachers just haven't done enough research.

 

I'm really confused by all of this information. I just have a hard time believing that we are going to hell for celebrating Christmas (which she said she honestly believes we will), even for those who celebrate it without bringing Jesus or Christianity into it at all. I know when I put up a tree I'm not worshiping the tree or any random god that is not my GOD.

 

I do realize that a lot of this is personal belief, but if you have an opinion about this or any facts/scriptures you can pass on I would greatly appreciate it.

Here is where they are getting the basis for this belief. The question is whether one believes this applies to Christmas trees, or simply decries idolatry in general. There are certainly legitimate arguments to be made both ways. I think it is a matter of conscience and even that can change for a person during his life. If you do not feel convicted about doing this, then ignore it. Treat it as an "all foods are clean" matter. You may eat some things other people can't eat for other reasons of conscience.

Jeremiah 10:1-16

 

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

 

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

 

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

 

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

 

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

 

6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

 

7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

 

8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

 

9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

 

10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

 

11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

 

12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

 

13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

 

14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

 

15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

 

16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name. (KJV)

[Garga]

Christmas is not really supposed to be "Jesus Birthday". It isn't, as your friend suggested, that Christians don't realize that Jesus was not likely born on Dec 25th or at this time of year even.

 

Christmas is when we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity. It is a point in the liturgical year that we set aside to especially remember this event. To understand why this is done it is really necessary to understand why the Church came to use the idea of the liturgical year.

 

Because we are creatures that live in time and space, we are limited in the things we can do and think about at the same time. That is why we set aside special time to pray or meet with the community in worship. We always should be living our lives as Christians, but if we don't set aside special times, often it gets pushed aside. It can be helpful to set aside special places for worship or prayer, even in our own home, for similar reasons.

 

It is also very helpful to set aside times to think about specific aspects of Christian belief. It can be hard to be at the same moment thinking and meditating seriously about our sinful nature and rejoicing in the Resurrection.

 

The liturgical year sets out a cycle of thinking about all these things in a logical way, and ties them to prayers and especially Scriptural readings on those themes, and to the time-line of the events of the Gospel story. It does this on a yearly cycle, a weekly cycle, and even a daily cycle.

 

Not only does this help us keep all these things in mind on a regular basis, it makes sure we don't neglect aspects of Christianity that we dislike and spend all our time on aspects we prefer, and it helps us do these things as a group. This means we should have sermons and be able to discuss these issues with our local community, and we will have their support in living out this cycle. Also, because it has been used since very early in Christian history, we can see ourselves not only as part of a local Christian community, but as participating in this cycle with many Christians who have gone before us - it helps us understand that the Church transcends time and space.

 

That is why we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity. It is the time of year when with our community we meditate on our need for a Savior, and celebrate that he has been born in such an unexpected way, and think about what it all means through Scripture, prayer, music, teaching, and fellowship together.

 

As far as the particular cultural celebrations. Yes, many of them have come from all kinds of different places. This was not done because people didn't realize that it was happening. It is because these natural symbols - an evergreen tree for example, or an egg at Easter - are perfectly good symbols of Christian truths. God created nature, and so it reflects him, and it reminds us of things about him.

 

Pre-Christian pagans did not have God's revelation. That is not their fault, it was not because they were not God's children or were evil. They did their best to worship what they knew, and sometimes their insights were profound, and sometimes they were confused. But when they saw the promise of new life in the an evergreen bough, or a symbol of rebirth in an egg, they were seeing real truth about God. Nature points to God because it is his.

 

Christians were not afraid to adopt these symbols - pagans could not make things that God had created good unholy, and more than a Satanist who uses a Bible for unholy things makes it an unholy book. Instead the Church saw that in many cases they could help the pagan peoples see that the true things they saw in the natural world were really pointing to the Christian God. And they continue to be good symbols for us, because we are physical creatures and our senses affect our minds and spirits.

 

And in some cases we are simply talking about cultural traditions that have no real connection to religion at all, pagan or Christian. Eating spicy cookies is not really a theological statement of any kind.

 

(What is really kind of ironic is that some Christians are now not celebrating Christmas, believing that it is a pagan festival or a secular commercial festival, but instead they celebrate a generic winter festival or gift giving holiday. That is, they are actually celebrating the holiday with very much the same theological perspective of ancient pagans or secular atheists.)

 

In any case, if someone suggests celebrating Christmas is going to **** someone to Hell, I am not taking their theological acumen too seriously.

 

I love this post.

[simka2]

Christmas is not really supposed to be "Jesus Birthday". It isn't, as your friend suggested, that Christians don't realize that Jesus was not likely born on Dec 25th or at this time of year even.

 

Christmas is when we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity. It is a point in the liturgical year that we set aside to especially remember this event. To understand why this is done it is really necessary to understand why the Church came to use the idea of the liturgical year.

 

Because we are creatures that live in time and space, we are limited in the things we can do and think about at the same time. That is why we set aside special time to pray or meet with the community in worship. We always should be living our lives as Christians, but if we don't set aside special times, often it gets pushed aside. It can be helpful to set aside special places for worship or prayer, even in our own home, for similar reasons.

 

It is also very helpful to set aside times to think about specific aspects of Christian belief. It can be hard to be at the same moment thinking and meditating seriously about our sinful nature and rejoicing in the Resurrection.

 

The liturgical year sets out a cycle of thinking about all these things in a logical way, and ties them to prayers and especially Scriptural readings on those themes, and to the time-line of the events of the Gospel story. It does this on a yearly cycle, a weekly cycle, and even a daily cycle.

 

Not only does this help us keep all these things in mind on a regular basis, it makes sure we don't neglect aspects of Christianity that we dislike and spend all our time on aspects we prefer, and it helps us do these things as a group. This means we should have sermons and be able to discuss these issues with our local community, and we will have their support in living out this cycle. Also, because it has been used since very early in Christian history, we can see ourselves not only as part of a local Christian community, but as participating in this cycle with many Christians who have gone before us - it helps us understand that the Church transcends time and space.

 

That is why we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity. It is the time of year when with our community we meditate on our need for a Savior, and celebrate that he has been born in such an unexpected way, and think about what it all means through Scripture, prayer, music, teaching, and fellowship together.

 

As far as the particular cultural celebrations. Yes, many of them have come from all kinds of different places. This was not done because people didn't realize that it was happening. It is because these natural symbols - an evergreen tree for example, or an egg at Easter - are perfectly good symbols of Christian truths. God created nature, and so it reflects him, and it reminds us of things about him.

 

Pre-Christian pagans did not have God's revelation. That is not their fault, it was not because they were not God's children or were evil. They did their best to worship what they knew, and sometimes their insights were profound, and sometimes they were confused. But when they saw the promise of new life in the an evergreen bough, or a symbol of rebirth in an egg, they were seeing real truth about God. Nature points to God because it is his.

 

Christians were not afraid to adopt these symbols - pagans could not make things that God had created good unholy, and more than a Satanist who uses a Bible for unholy things makes it an unholy book. Instead the Church saw that in many cases they could help the pagan peoples see that the true things they saw in the natural world were really pointing to the Christian God. And they continue to be good symbols for us, because we are physical creatures and our senses affect our minds and spirits.

 

And in some cases we are simply talking about cultural traditions that have no real connection to religion at all, pagan or Christian. Eating spicy cookies is not really a theological statement of any kind.

 

(What is really kind of ironic is that some Christians are now not celebrating Christmas, believing that it is a pagan festival or a secular commercial festival, but instead they celebrate a generic winter festival or gift giving holiday. That is, they are actually celebrating the holiday with very much the same theological perspective of ancient pagans or secular atheists.)

 

In any case, if someone suggests celebrating Christmas is going to **** someone to Hell, I am not taking their theological acumen too seriously.

 

I love this post.

No kidding! :iagree: Thank you for sharing.

[Mrs Mungo]

It's not a new idea. The Puritans outlawed Christmas in Massachussetts. That's part of why they came to America, to get away from all the Anglican practices they didn't approve of in England.

 

:iagree: there are Easter and Christmas tradition hating Christians, there are Halloween loving Christians. To each their own.

 

We are Christian, I am aware of the roots of some of the trappings, but I don't think it really matters. I am pretty sure that Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love one another. That is what Christmas is about.

[gardenmom5]

No she says she will no longer partake in Easter celebrations either. I was just flabbergasted by all of the things she said and her views! I had never heard them.

 

I know it was a different thread, by she does make me think of the pharisees.

 

You know, to each their own and some people you just have to ignore.

[Jay3fer]

Is she celebrating Jewish feasts? If so, you can certainly inform her that what she's doing would probably be even more "forbidden," according to the Jewish Bible Jesus used. :-)

 

Jewish feasts were and are considered part of God's covenant with the Jews; non-Jews were and are welcome to participate as guests, but not to appropriate the holidays for themselves and add their own layers of meaning.

 

In terms of "putting other gods before God," if you separate Jesus from the idea of God, what you're preaching is no longer Christianity, as far as I - and most churches - are concerned. I'm not saying that's what I believe, you understand... but it IS what Christians believe.

 

Just a couple of thoughts - from a modern Jewish perspective. ;-)

[justamouse]

No kidding! :iagree: Thank you for sharing.

:iagree::iagree:

[justamouse]

She's full of beans and/or grossly misinformed.

 

Early Christians debated Jesus's bday--I mean, rilly, rilly early. I don't think you can definitively say that you "know" that He wasn't born on December 25. :-)

 

This is an interesting article: Christmas was Never a Pagan Holiday.

 

You found it!! I had read that a while ago, and forgot where. Great article.

[mlbuchina]

Here is where they are getting the basis for this belief. The question is whether one believes this applies to Christmas trees, or simply decries idolatry in general. There are certainly legitimate arguments to be made both ways. I think it is a matter of conscience and even that can change for a person during his life. If you do not feel convicted about doing this, then ignore it. Treat it as an "all foods are clean" matter. You may eat some things other people can't eat for other reasons of conscience.

 

Jeremiah 10:1-16

 

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

 

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

 

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

 

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

 

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

 

6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

 

7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

 

8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

 

9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

 

10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

 

11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

 

12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

 

13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

 

14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

 

15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

 

16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name. (KJV)

 

Yes, this is most likely where some of her fear is coming from. However, this is instruction for Israel (the Jews), and not for Christ's body, the church. Perhaps you can gently encourage her with that knowledge?

 

Love the encouragement from Paul in Colossians 2:16 and Romans 14: 5-6 that JoAnn shared.

[Guest]

Is she celebrating Jewish feasts? If so, you can certainly inform her that what she's doing would probably be even more "forbidden," according to the Jewish Bible Jesus used. :-)

 

Jewish feasts were and are considered part of God's covenant with the Jews; non-Jews were and are welcome to participate as guests, but not to appropriate the holidays for themselves and add their own layers of meaning.

 

In terms of "putting other gods before God," if you separate Jesus from the idea of God, what you're preaching is no longer Christianity, as far as I - and most churches - are concerned. I'm not saying that's what I believe, you understand... but it IS what Christians believe.

 

Just a couple of thoughts - from a modern Jewish perspective. ;-)

 

Can you give my the verses for this, please? I have always wondered about that.

 

Also, what if someone is part Jewish married to a non-Jew? How does all of that work?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

We do not believe that the 25th is the exact date of Jesus' birth. We do, however, use the day to celebrate it.

We are also firmly aware that the date stems from the Pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice and that many Christmas traditions are, indeed, "Pagan" in origin.

We just don't see the problem in that I guess.

We celebrate and embrace diversity.

I'm not so arrogant to assume entrance into Heaven based on what I do on December 25th.

Besides that, my God is a loving God. He doesn't doom people to hell for Santa Clause and Christmas trees :D

 

I think that it is worth some time considering if common practice indicates derivation. What I mean by that is that religion A may have practices with a tree or an animal and religion B may also have practices with a tree or an animal, but they may have developed because both people groups had trees and animals around them to put into symbolic use.

 

At the same time, there are some things that are specifically grafted onto earlier practices. I try to give the early church fathers the benefit of the doubt. Just as I expect missions organizations to be discerning of what is a cultural practice and what is part of a religion, I think there was similar sifting going on in the past.

 

Our family celebrates Christmas, because for dozens of generations, Christmas has been a time for feasting in the midst of German, English and Scandanavian winters as we consider how blessed we are that the Creator God saw fit to take the form of a man in order to draw us closer to him.

 

That a thousand years ago some of my ancestors were worshipping totally different gods doesn't cause me to lose much sleep. Nor do I worry that some of their practices might have involved trees or baked animal shapes or holly . . .

 

[For a way out there analogy, the fact that temple prostitution existed in some places where the early church took root doesn't mean that every couple enjoying the marriage bed thereafter were "really" emulating the practices from Ephesus.]

 

As an aside, I am sort of amused by the fact that while some Christians are objecting to Santa Claus (who started out as St. Nicholas) and to Christmas trees as too commercial, other groups and government entities are rejecting them as too closely tied to the Christian Christmas.

[mommaduck]

She's full of beans and/or grossly misinformed.

 

Early Christians debated Jesus's bday--I mean, rilly, rilly early. I don't think you can definitively say that you "know" that He wasn't born on December 25. :-)

 

This is an interesting article: Christmas was Never a Pagan Holiday.

Good article. Here is an Eastern Orthodox article on the same :)

 

http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2010/12/calculating-christmas-the-truth-about-dec-25/

[elfgivas]

:grouphug:

 

as for me and my house....

 

our beliefs around the nature and authority of scripture are not literal. for example, there are rules in the OT for selling our daughters faithfully into slavery.... in the chapter right after the 10 commandments. i am not ever going to believe God intended us to do that. not ever. i'm not so keen on sacrificing turtle doves every month, either, and don't, not because i'm not keen, but because i do not think God intended us to do it.

 

i do believe that the bible contains essential Truth, often in story form.

 

 

so my beliefs around the nature and authority of scripture lead me to need a litmus test of just how faithful some of those scriptures may be. we also read it in its original languages to try to open up how translation may have changed meaning.

 

 

we use micah 6 as a litmus test....

 

"what does the Lord require of you?"

"to seek justice

and love kindness

and walk humbly with thy God"

 

and

 

New International Version (NIV)

 

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?â€

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.â€

 

 

so in this case we would ask "what shows the greatest love?" and "what loves kindness?"

 

our christmas tree is lovely and peaceful. we welcome people who need a place to go.....

 

QED

 

blessings,

ann

[SailorMom]

From my understanding, the church highly favored Easter over Christmas until the 1900's. They did settle on the 25th long before that, but other than perhaps a special mass - it was not a "celebration". They settled on the 25th because the pagans wouldn't quit celebrating their winter holidays even when they were no longer legal. Additionally, many pagans had no problems being Christians and pagans at the same time, and did blend the two together.

I won't bother to list all the winter non-Christian holidays, but anyway - the church decided the only way to stop the pagans form celebrating pagan winter holidays was to take over.

Was the birth of Christ recognized before that? Yes. But most (arguably all) of the Christmas traditions have their root in paganism.

[PeacefulChaos]

It's her personal opinion.

And honestly, I just roll my eyes at this sort of thing. It just sounds kind of fanatical to me - I don't care what other people do for Christmas (or don't do) and I think it's rude and presumptuous of people who don't celebrate to try to convince people that they are wrong for celebrating.

You do what works for you.

I get sick of hearing all the mumbo jumbo about it. (Not you - just the general argument between whether Christians 'should' or 'should not' celebrate. Christians should do what they feel they should personally do. Period.)

[NicAnn]

Well, I am a Christian who firmly believes that celebrating Christmas is wrong. I came to this decision after many years of study and prayer. However, I do NOT believe in Hell, and truly believe that God is not going to punish those who are not doing everything "right". It takes time and devotion to come to certain decisions...God knows that.

[simka2]

From my understanding, the church highly favored Easter over Christmas until the 1900's. They did settle on the 25th long before that, but other than perhaps a special mass - it was not a "celebration". They settled on the 25th because the pagans wouldn't quit celebrating their winter holidays even when they were no longer legal. Additionally, many pagans had no problems being Christians and pagans at the same time, and did blend the two together.

I won't bother to list all the winter non-Christian holidays, but anyway - the church decided the only way to stop the pagans form celebrating pagan winter holidays was to take over.

Was the birth of Christ recognized before that? Yes. But most (arguably all) of the Christmas traditions have their root in paganism.

 

This is not entirely true and it would probably be worth reading the article mommaduck linked. Maybe for Western Christianity it was the case, but Eastern was celebrating the Nativity (around Dec 25th) very early on.

[milovany]

Well, I am a Christian who firmly believes that celebrating Christmas is wrong. I came to this decision after many years of study and prayer.

 

I had the same experience with the issue of head covering (women needing to wear a cloth covering in church). Based on my own study and personal conviction, I started wearing a cloth head covering in church even though this was not the standard practice in our church at the time. Then I realized that all my years of study and prayer were almost for naught because who was *I* to figure out what the Bible meant after 2000 years? And why were we trying to still figure out this kind of thing anyway, all these years after the fact? Didn't the church know long before now if we should be celebrating the nativity of Christ or wearing a head covering? What were the historical church's beliefs and practices? Were people figuring these things out individually on their own throughout the ages, or was there a standard of practice? Etc, etc. It was very frustrating for me and led me down a road of challenging answers to these questions.

 

You may not have had the same experience, your journey may be far different, but reading your words rung this bell in me.

Edited December 14, 2011 by milovaný

[Trish]

I'm not sure if this is controversial, but I just don't know who else to ask about this....

 

One of my friends I grew up with told me she is no longer celebrating Christmas because she believes that Jesus does not approve. She said it is a pagan holiday, and that it all stemmed from worshiping other gods and trees. She believes that by celebrating Christmas, we are putting another god before our GOD, and therefore breaking the first commandment. (She won't even go shopping with me since I'm shopping for Christmas gifts.)

 

I do know that December 25th is not the date that Jesus was actually born, but in my family I have always centered the holiday around the birth of Jesus. Of course we have a tree and we do santa presents with the kids are little, but I have always taught my kids the true meaning of Christmas is Jesus' birth.

 

My question to her was if by celebrating Christmas we are sinning, then why would churches celebrate Christmas and put up Christmas trees. She said that the preachers just haven't done enough research.

 

I'm really confused by all of this information. I just have a hard time believing that we are going to hell for celebrating Christmas (which she said she honestly believes we will), even for those who celebrate it without bringing Jesus or Christianity into it at all. I know when I put up a tree I'm not worshiping the tree or any random god that is not my GOD.

 

I do realize that a lot of this is personal belief, but if you have an opinion about this or any facts/scriptures you can pass on I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Sounds like she is throwing out the Baby Jesus with the bathwater! So what church does she go to that believes celebrating a Christmas in (what is now) a traditional way with trees and presents, etc. is a sin? I'm sure there are some, just wondering if she's following along with her church, or if her special research has turned up information her church isn't aware of.

 

Yes the Christians did co-opt some pagan traditions and turned them into Christian symbols. But Jesus himself co-opted a Roman sign of shame, THE CROSS, an instrument of torture and death, and turned it into the ultimate Christian symbol.

 

Maybe you should mention that to her! Probably wasn't covered in her research.

[JenniferB]

An erroneous view of salvation and you could end up in hell

 

I used to think it was the view of salvation which saves a person, but that no longer makes sense to me. My view is tweaked all the time, does that mean I was not saved when I had a slightly different view? (I'm not sure that I'm saved now, so that might be the case.) I'm pretty sure my view will change in the future too, as I live and love God and pray and repent more and more. And, what about people who cannot have a view, because their brain just doesn't function in such a way as to decide upon a view? And what about what Jesus said, something like, if you want to make it to Heaven you must become like a little child? Little children don't think and over think until they come to a particular view about God and how he works. They just are their genuine, innocent, rambunctious, giving, loving, and easy to love selves. I know this is off topic, please forgive me, but I was compelled to comment on this statement. Maybe I should have started a spin off. :tongue_smilie:

 

It is a point in the liturgical year that we set aside to especially remember this event. To understand why this is done it is really necessary to understand why the Church came to use the idea of the liturgical year....

 

:iagree: and I :001_wub: this post.

[milovany]

I Maybe I should have started a spin off. :tongue_smilie:

 

Maybe so. Your spin-offs tend to be somewhat world-rocking and life-altering, lol. :D

[JenniferB]

LOL! They rock my world, to say the very least. :-)

[Scarlett]

It's her personal opinion.

And honestly, I just roll my eyes at this sort of thing. It just sounds kind of fanatical to me - I don't care what other people do for Christmas (or don't do) and I think it's rude and presumptuous of people who don't celebrate to try to convince people that they are wrong for celebrating.

You do what works for you

 

If you believe, as I do, that celebrating Christmas displeases God, it can be tricky to discuss it with anyone. They notice you don't celebrate, they ask you why, you tell them why and they then go away feeling as if you have been rude and presumptuous because you have told them what you believe.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Honestly, it didn't sound to me that the OP's friend was trying to convince her she was wrong.....she was asked questions and she answered those questions.

[SailorMom]

This is not entirely true and it would probably be worth reading the article mommaduck linked. Maybe for Western Christianity it was the case, but Eastern was celebrating the Nativity (around Dec 25th) very early on.

 

Well - I did read it, I was trying to be polite by not mentioning that it is - according to the history I have studied - inaccurate.

Tighe has no sources listed, so I can't check where he is getting his info from. In his own bio he writes this:

 

My academic interests include the English Reformation (and its long-term "working out") as well as the Reformation in the Scandinavian realms, and, additionally, the Orthodox Church and its relations with the West. I teach courses on various aspects of European history between the Renaissance and the French Revolution, as well as one on (Eastern) Orthodox Christianity.

 

While he does teach a course on Eastern Orthodoxy, his focus is far later in history. He seems to be well read on his time periods, but during those times some of the very myths about Christianity that developed into "fact" now were written. If you go back to the primary sources - written by the Greeks, the Romans, the pagans, etc., who lived at the time - you get different info on much of what he wrote in his article.

 

I'm not saying I'm an expert, but my graduate degree is in ancient and classical history, and I've written copiously on the pagan religion, and the birth of Christianity. I've spent a lot of time reading those primary sources, and studying the development of both Western and Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

[simka2]

Well - I did read it, I was trying to be polite by not mentioning that it is - according to the history I have studied - inaccurate.

Tighe has no sources listed, so I can't check where he is getting his info from. In his own bio he writes this:

 

My academic interests include the English Reformation (and its long-term "working out") as well as the Reformation in the Scandinavian realms, and, additionally, the Orthodox Church and its relations with the West. I teach courses on various aspects of European history between the Renaissance and the French Revolution, as well as one on (Eastern) Orthodox Christianity.

 

While he does teach a course on Eastern Orthodoxy, his focus is far later in history. He seems to be well read on his time periods, but during those times some of the very myths about Christianity that developed into "fact" now were written. If you go back to the primary sources - written by the Greeks, the Romans, the pagans, etc., who lived at the time - you get different info on much of what he wrote in his article.

 

I'm not saying I'm an expert, but my graduate degree is in ancient and classical history, and I've written copiously on the pagan religion, and the birth of Christianity. I've spent a lot of time reading those primary sources, and studying the development of both Western and Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

 

I do not disagree with you, I just think the point of the article was different. It (as I read it) was not about Christianity utilizing Pagan dates for their own celebrations, therefore trying to "breed" the Paganness out of them, but more about mathmaticaly coming to a date based off the date of the crucifixion that just happens to coincide with some Pagan festivals.

 

That was how I read it. Truthfully, it does not bother me either way. :D There is much about Paganism that I appreciate.

 

Edited to add: I completely agree that later on there were specific attempts to utilize Pagans dates in an attempt to make them less Pagan.