Stacy in NJ Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 It's a good reminder. :001_smile: I thought it is pretty insulting. I am Chinese. my son has vedio game/play date. He is too young for sleep over, He watches TV like other kids. And frankly, I don't know any Chinese parents in US doing what the article said. Yes, we have high expectation. we teaches kids our way rather than US way after school, becuase US math is total screw up. And poeple here uses singapore math disgree with me. And if that become a crime, so be it. You guys do have to also understand how Asians grow up. Most country are over populated due to most countries are framer based economic. To get ahead, study is the way. When I passed the high school test, I remeber only 14% of us can get in public high school and out of those, only about 30% can get into college, So, there is pressure. And lucky you guys grow in US has all you want and don't have tow work for it, we don't. We have to study and study in hope we can one day get ahead. So yes, I expect huge on my kids. I will tell him how lucky he is. But he almost get plenty privillege that I didn't have.He goes ski, he swimm , soccer . He does play violin, but he told me he want to play violin And In this article, he just uses what his parents treat him to generalize Chinese parents. That is unfair and disgusting. My parents will never ever call me trash or fatty. If his parents treat him lie that, his parents has a problem not all Chinese parents. This is like if I saw a article a Amercan parents rape the daughter and I summarize all US parents will rape their kids. This article is racist and disgusting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm East Asian and grew up in a home like this. So did the majority of my peers. We are all fine, and are no more or less dysfunctional than our Caucasian peers! It does come up in conversation, particularly as we become parents. Of nine total children, my parents raised five professionals (lawyers, doctors, engineers) and a teacher (working towards professorship). Oh, and me :) I'm a flight attendant. They're not thrilled but I went to university blah blah blah to study what they wanted me to. I felt/feel no guilt choosing my career. My youngest sibling is a college sophomore, undecided btwn architecture and med school, parents pushing for med school. We are all accomplished musicians and played sports. Another sibling died midway through med school. Not by suicide fwiw. On that, we seem less depressed than lots of my American peers complain to be. I'm raising my kids more Asian style than American. Their (white) dad approves, probably bc he grew up the same as a child who immigrated here. I thnk it's a generational thing as much as ethnic. We live in a high achieving white area where most kids are raised similarly, though IMO way more coddled and falsely pumped (self-esteem, worth). Pardon typos, pls. I'm on my phone and my fingers are fat. Ask my mom ;) :lol: Your last line totally cracked me up! What a great sense of humor you have!:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 sorry a lot typos. i was a little angry to see a article like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Secondly, this mother actually deprived her own child of her basic liberties. She 'kidnapped' the child in her own home. Her description of how she deprived the child of basic rights such as that to quench her thirst and to go to the bathroom when needed are akin to control tactics a kidnapper might use. This seems like a huge stretch to me. Kidnapped? In her own home? C'mon.:lol: I deal with this with my boys. It never fails that just when things are getting tough, and they are forced to do some thing that they don't want to that they have to go to the bathroom, or they are thirsty, or they drop their pencil. So kidnapping? Please. I don't let mine go either, and amazingly, they survive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevilla Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I don't believe in shame-based parenting. I don't believe it produces emotionally healthy adults, I don't believe it instills Christian virtue, and I would not want anyone to practice it on me. Fundamentally, the writer of the article and myself are at odds b/c she believes shaming is warranted and necessary to raise a successful child-adult and I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 This seems like a huge stretch to me. Kidnapped? In her own home? C'mon.:lol: I deal with this with my boys. It never fails that just when things are getting tough, and they are forced to do some thing that they don't want to that they have to go to the bathroom, or they are thirsty, or they drop their pencil. So kidnapping? Please. I don't let mine go either, and amazingly, they survive! :iagree: That was pretty much my reaction to her post too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 First, I am stunned at the number of posters who think it's fine to slap children and call them garbage. Second, if there are several Asian students in a class, how is it that they are ALL first in the class? (as this article says superior chinese moms require) Third, and anecdotally I realize, we live in a city that hosts an international piano competition with significant monetary prizes and performance opportunities. People come from all over the world to compete, and the 12 finalists tend to be pretty evenly divided among eastern and western countries, including several each from China and the US. In 2010, there were no Americans in the top three, but there were also no Chinese . . . Europe ruled the day. As others have said, this is not an either/or choice, and trying to present it that way is creating a false dilemma, which no logical, rigorous homeschooler should do. You can be strict and have high expectations without hitting or shaming. You can be loving and supportive without being indulgent. It breaks my heart for people to think otherwise. And this? This, I love: My American children are being taught to hate and fight that sort of inhumane tyranny. We do not admire it or fear it. We despise it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardening momma Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 There are some gems in that article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelissaCC Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Actually, I said not all aspects of all cultures are equal :) And yes, I do think depriving a child of the ability to attend to her basic needs amounts to deprivation of her liberties. I'm so glad I live in a liberal Western democracy where a 'major' problem seems to be asking ourselves if we are 'too kind to our kids.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Has this been posted yet? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059720804985228.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacefully Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 My dh is Japanese and moved to the US when he was 2. He has made a conscious and deliberate choice to *not* raise our dc in the Japanese manner in which he was raised. I think it is arrogant to assume that there is no truth or validity to this author's assertions. I also think it is ignorant to act as if "we dopey Westerners" are so contemptuous. :glare: I know *plenty* of extremely successful "Westerners." And they weren't raised with the tyranny this woman advocates. (Tyranny is my opinion. I am not using it as a statement of any kind of fact. ;) ) Having read this thread, I am grateful dh and I are charged with raising our dc and not some of the posters in this thread. :glare: Our dc are respectful and polite. They are responsible and kind and each excel in their own unique area. And for us, it isn't accomplished with threats, name - calling, harsh punishments, and fear. It is accomplished with clear rules and guidelines, natural consequences, natural rewards, and respect. Yes, dh and I treat our dc with the respect human beings deserve. And we expect to be treated likewise. And we are. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I can't read all the responses but I skimmed some of them. I thought the article was very interesting. My dh is Chinese-American, the youngest of 4 kids. His mother was one of 7 kids and he has 20 cousins. Within that group of now adult cousins there are 3 who got dual MD-PhD's from Harvard and one Rhodes scholar who just graduated from Harvard law. Most of the rest went to an Ivy League or other "top" school and are either doctors, lawyers, engineers or highly successful in the business world. When I met dh I was in medical school and I remember him saying that he wasn't impressed by doctors since he knew so many in his family (in his defense he remembers saying that he wasn't intimidated by doctors but regardless it's the same point). Dh's Mom died before we got married and was quite old and ill when I met her so I can't really say what she was like. I do know that there is definitely an expectation in their family for a certain way to be successful. For the most part, the people in his family I've met are all pretty well adjusted and happy and don't seem to have been harmed by whatever parenting style their parents used. I have seen though that for those that don't fit the mold it can be tough. Dh's brother is an artist and really seemed to struggle during his adult life to figure out who he was. I suspect that he may have had a learning disability given the struggles I've heard he had in school but I don't know for sure. I know he's always felt like their Dad doesn't value him as much as the other three sibs (doctor, lawyer, architect). And he's probably right, sadly. However, he has come to a place where he's happy with who he is and the rest of the family loves and appreciates him. Interestingly, he recently has moved back to this area (from a town that he very much loved and fit his lifestyle better) to be the primary caretaker of their father who is 91 and in very poor health. When their mother was very sick and dying 13 years ago three of the sibs provided her with 24 hour care (the other sib had young children and helped as she could). Now, that FIL has really declined in the past year, BIL has taken on the primary role. Ironically, some of the things that were a "diappointment" to FIL (job, not married/no kids) are the things that has made it possible for BIL to become the full-time caregiver. I'm not sure FIL sees the irony though. :) The other thought I had when I read this article was that I definitely see within my in-laws a desire that everything has to be the best. I don't know if it's Chinese or Asian or just my in-laws. I laugh about it with dh but it's kind of sad how predictable it is. Any story told about anything ends with a superlative. How they were the best at something, or learned it the fastest, the restaurant they went to had the best chef, the route they took home was the best choice,e tc. OR the fracture was the worst the doctor ever saw, the snowstorm the biggest, etc. For the most part it's sort of a private joke with dh but I also see that it contributes to a mindset that in my opinion is less content. All that to say, the article was extreme but I think there is truth in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirth Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Prof. Chua represents an extreme version of "Chinese" mother, whatever that means. Apparently it can also mean Jamaican. I also wonder how many Chinese (not "Chinese" in quotes) mothers she knows, outside of her own. It is interesting that the most famous and creative of Chinese, such as Gong Li, Jet Li, Ziyi Zhang, Lang Lang have all defected outright from China or sought a special (and rarely given) form of residency in Hong Kong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 This seems like a huge stretch to me. Kidnapped? In her own home? C'mon.:lol: I deal with this with my boys. It never fails that just when things are getting tough, and they are forced to do some thing that they don't want to that they have to go to the bathroom, or they are thirsty, or they drop their pencil. So kidnapping? Please. I don't let mine go either, and amazingly, they survive! Yes, to some degree but hours on end. No water, food or bathroom breaks for hours for a 7 y.o. is abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessReplanted Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I am the strictest mother I currently know and I find that abusive. :iagree: Me too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary in VA Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Read this thread yesterday and then low and behold it was reviewed in today's Washington Post! For those who might be interested http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/07/AR2011010702516.html Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I could never, ever in a million years parent that way. I don't think it's even possible for my personality! Here is what I strive for in my parenting: "Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous, it is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrong-doing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I wonder how much of this is truly an Asian style of parenting or just an "immigrant" style of parenting. I'm not Asian but I am a minority and I have seen many of the same parenting decisions in my own family. My generation is the first to have a college education. Education was seen as the key to success so you were required to bleed over your books if that was what was necessary to achieve. It wasn't abuse driven, though many of you may have characterized it as that, but fear driven. Our parents were afraid for us and were rigid in their parenting to push us through to the American dream. It was literally the only way they could help; they had no money, no connections and a deep conviction that a part of America was closed to them because of their limitations. Limitations that they would force us, their children, never to have. There wasn't time to care for our self-esteem, my parents wanted us to have a profession that didn't cause you to wear out your body at 40 and that would put meat in your belly. In high school, I was so stressed that my hair started falling out. My mother laughed at the doctor's suggestion to slow down. She sat me down and told me this was my way out of poverty so I had to study even harder. Was that abuse? No, it was reality. And I am grateful to her that, throughout my life, I could look reality in the eye and kick its butt. But this doesn't apply to the family in the article, does it? It was reality for you, but it is not reality for these kids. They do not need to escape poverty. The parents both have professional jobs, they are quite affluent. And yes, of course, you still want your kids to work hard, but affluence means maybe you can back off the teeniest little bit, just till the hair quits falling out, y'know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I want to speak(write) on the "not letting her go to the bathroom and get a drink" issue. Now - if the child really had to go, or was getting dehydrated - yeah. That's bad. I agree. But I know that when my kids are given a tough task they don't want to do, they find a million excuses that keep them from doing it. For example, DS13 - whenever his dad or I want him to help with yardwork - he immediately is starving and thirsty. He also has to come in the house every 5 minutes for water or to go to the bathroom. We have had to deny water breaks and bathroom visits (we know he's just stalling). As strict as I am, I wouldn't allow my kids to be in pain or dehydrated, but is it possible that this sort of situation is what the mother in the article was referring to??? Because of my experience, I assumed that was what she was doing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Great discussion! What I took away from the article was the commitment to success. I completely disagree with the methods used to achieve it. As for exaggeration--the whole thing reminds me of my Chinese friend in high school, and her family was EXACTLY this way. Her father made the kids study during all school breaks. Of course, my friend had a novel tucked inside the encyclopedia :D But her father even went so far as to SPY on her (which the article also mentioned.) All in all, my friend and her sibs seemed to have a hard life, but they are, by most people's standards, successful adults. I also agree that we need not see our children as fragile. They should be able to take constructive (YES, constructive, not abusive) criticism without letting it deflate them. What the mom said to her kids to "motivate" them was plain old mean, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I could never, ever in a million years parent that way. I don't think it's even possible for my personality! Here is what I strive for in my parenting: "Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous, it is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrong-doing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildiris Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 An interesting discussion. Some may have missed this from the high school board, but it is entitled, "A Short Talk With a Chinese Exchange Student." Random Thoughts While I might not agree with all of Chua's Chinese parenting methods, the idea of hard work resonates. I think it is dangerous to use Chua's perspective to generalize all Chinese parenting or Chinese Americans' parenting styles. Yet Chua's "Chinese" parenting style stands in contrast to "American" parenting styles. What interests me is how Americans are perceived by the rest of the world as lazy, yet our university system is one of the best in the world; people want to emigrate to the US for American opportunities. Part of me thinks that articles and books like Chua's work like propaganda to show how America is losing its edge as an economic power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Nicholas Kristoff has an interesting blog piece in the NYT this morning about the 14-year-old Chinese chess champion who, people in the know suspect, may be one of the few women ever to be in the top two or three chess players in the world. Anyway, the interesting bit is that he talks about a Chinese phrase that means 'eating grief," and its relevance to the achievements of the children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaBearTeacher Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Although this article talks about the Chinese mother I think it is really just describing a style of parenting which might possibly be more prevalent in China. I am sure there are Chinese mothers who value parenting in a more humane way just as I have heard of many Western parents who parent with a degree of strictness that is abusive. We should not generalize. One article is just one person's opinion, one person's experience. I have found this thread fascinating, full of many points of view and experiences of this topic. I feel though that something is missing and it remains a mystery to me. It seems that a great number (not all) of the Chinese children who were parented this way turned out fine. Whereas from what I have seen when Western parents get this strict, there is often a very bad outcome, often the child grows up to develop a drug or alcohol problem. I might be wrong or generalizing way too much, but is there anyone who has noticed the same thing? Do you have any idea why that would be the case? Is there another element in Chinese parenting that ensures the positive outcome? Another element in the strict Western parents' parenting that causes such a negative outcome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 . I am sure there are Chinese mothers who value parenting in a more humane way http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059720804985228.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I am not Asian, it is not my culture or tradition, and it is not a lifestyle I'm looking to adopt. That doesn't mean that I can't recognize where the Chinese have been very successful and their achievements are worth noting. We are strict parents. In fact, I have on a couple of occasions been told that we're (dh and I) are too strict and expect too much from our girls. Of the homeschooling parents I'm friendly with, I'm among the strictest. We have expectations and goals - not only academic but also morally. Our end goal is shaped by our culture and worldview (Christian), and it is different in quite a few ways than the author's. Maybe it's because in the end I believe I'm going to have to answer to God regarding the children He's given me in more areas than academics and being successful according to the world's standards. Nonetheless, I expect my girls to work very hard at their academics and to apply themselves. I don't like excuses. I don't want them to be afraid of taking on difficult and hard tasks and seeing them through to the end. Name calling is not allowed in our home under any circumstances (parent or child), but I have at times told my dd that she was 'acting lazy' and it was unacceptable. I have children who when given a difficult assignment all of a sudden become hungry or thirsty or something. I'm not sure what to make out of the mother not letting her dd use the bathroom or get a drink. It sounded as if the girl was at the piano all day? There's no reason why you can't have successful, hard working children, hold to your standards and expectations, but still allow them playdates and chance to act in a school play. I'm probably a little biased because my sil married into a Chinese family, and there are many similarities between the article and this family. The fallout has not been good. Sil's dh has a handicapped sister, and it is hard to handle how they view her due to her handicap. Especially since dh's had a sister with Down's Syndrome, and she was the shining light of that family. No, I don't want to copy that mother's methods, and I'm very okay with my American roots which included determination, hard work and integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
at the beach Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Although this article talks about the Chinese mother I think it is really just describing a style of parenting which might possibly be more prevalent in China. I am sure there are Chinese mothers who value parenting in a more humane way just as I have heard of many Western parents who parent with a degree of strictness that is abusive. We should not generalize. One article is just one person's opinion, one person's experience. I have found this thread fascinating, full of many points of view and experiences of this topic. I feel though that something is missing and it remains a mystery to me. It seems that a great number (not all) of the Chinese children who were parented this way turned out fine. Whereas from what I have seen when Western parents get this strict, there is often a very bad outcome, often the child grows up to develop a drug or alcohol problem. I might be wrong or generalizing way too much, but is there anyone who has noticed the same thing? Do you have any idea why that would be the case? Is there another element in Chinese parenting that ensures the positive outcome? Another element in the strict Western parents' parenting that causes such a negative outcome? ETA: I think what I am trying to convey below is that in Asian society it seems the focus is much more heavily on the importance of family as opposed to Western parenting. As the writer of the article said, Chinese children feel like the owe their parents for what their parents have done for them. It is a different dynamic. And this is why I mention the doting upon children in the early years that some previous posters talk of. I am no expert on Asian vs Western parenting. Just making some comments in regard to the above posters question. My comments have nothing to do with women combining parenting their children with other interests. I have found this thread fascinating, too. Something that I took from the article that perhaps she didn't say in so many words was that (regardless of how we view her behavior) she loves her children deeply and her children understand this. They know that their mother loves and is utterly devoted to them and their success. She expects VERY MUCH from them, and I don't know if that's good or bad or worth it or how it will play out over the children's lives. I think teaching children that they can do hard things and succeed is important. But do I approach it the author's way? Well, no. As for things I've witnessed in Western parenting (some families) that I feel might contribute to poor outcomes with kids, well, I don't want to make generalizations, but I have more than once encountered Western parents who make comments like, "I could never only be X's mother." Their young baby and child is not their main focus. ETA: Their child is not their PRIORITY. Family is not their priority. Their needs and desires take priority. The child, right from the get-go, knows and understands this, if not consciously then subconsciously. Obviously, this contributes to the way children feel toward their parents. If you don't devote your time to making sure you have an incredibly strong bond with your little person from the start, well, it can be increasingly tough to parent that little one when he's bigger than you at the age of 12. When a parent doesn't have that close, loving tie with a child, the child often doesn't really respect the parent when the parent starts making demands on the child. And don't forget how peer-oriented our society is. Kids often have other kids as their main connection, and it is the peer group kids often look to to determine how to behave. Anyway, when those parents who do not have that deep bond to their child then discipline harshly, the child really doesn't care what the parent wants from them. In fact, whether they are harsh or permissive, the child probably doesn't give a hoot. I imagine harshness in many Asian settings is seeming to come from a place that the child somehow understands is meant to be loving--not all families but maybe a good amount of them? For example, I think a few posters mentioned how lenient the Chinese are with the very young kids under six and how indulgent. They are attempting to foster that deep love and commitment to their children, showering them with love and indulgence so the child knows they are their parents whole world. Well, anyway, just some random thoughts that are strictly my opinion. Edited January 10, 2011 by Violet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) It sounds like you're saying that a western woman who wants something in her life- work she cares about-- in addition to her children-- is damaging her children? Did you know that the woman who wrote the book/article is also a Professor at Yale? How do you think she got there without also thinking beyond her children? Do you think her children are damaged by her work? As for things I've witnessed in Western parenting (some families) that I feel might contribute to poor outcomes with kids, well, I don't want to make generalizations, but I have more than once encountered Western parents who make comments like, "I could never only be X's mother." Their young baby and child is not their main focus. The child, right from the get-go, knows and understands this, if not consciously then subconsciously. Obviously, this contributes to the way children feel toward their parents. If you don't devote your time to making sure you have an incredibly strong bond with your little person from the start, well, it can be increasingly tough to parent that little one when he's bigger than you at the age of 12. Edited January 9, 2011 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
at the beach Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) It sounds like you're saying that a western woman who wants something in her life- work she cares about-- in addition to her children-- is damaging to her children? Well, no, that's not what I said or intended to say. I work part-time and have children that I homeschool, so I certainly don't think that women having something in addition to children in their lives is always damaging to children. But IMO a child needs to be a parent's priority. The parents who I refer to in my previous post (and perhaps I should have explained more thoroughly) are parents who not only feel being a parent isn't enough for them, it's not their PRIORITY. Their own wants are their priority. Their child's needs are secondary. I believe in attachment parenting, and I will also admit that I think quantity is just as important as quality time with a child. Should a child be more important than one's job? I say, yes. Does that mean that I think a woman cannot work and have children without doing damage to them? Well, no, but again, I do think kids need quantity time with their parents if possible--obviously there are situations where this isn't possible. As I said, I do combine work with raising my children right now. I certainly have plenty of interests outside of my children, too. And yes, I did know the woman who wrote the article was a professor at Yale. Edited January 9, 2011 by Violet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Heather, maker of the most ginormous threads ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 It sounds like you're saying that a western woman who wants something in her life- work she cares about-- in addition to her children-- is damaging her children? Did you know that the woman who wrote the book/article is also a Professor at Yale? How do you think she got there without also thinking beyond her children? Do you think her children are damaged by her work? I don't think this is what she is saying at all. There is a big difference between choosing/needing to work in addition to caring for your children and putting your own needs/desires ahead of caring for your children. I work part time and when ds asked me why I couldn't stay home with him we discussed all the activities he enjoys and benefits from and how I have to work to be able to pay for those things. He knows I choose work I enjoy and I might be disappointed if I couldn't work, but that ultimately my family comes first and I would quit if it were in the best interests of the family. I also have a friend who is a doctor and a parent of 3 young children. She borders on being a workaholic but she is working so hard so that she can give her children as many opportunities as possible, and I think her children (at least the older one) know this. Conversely, I have known parents who made it clear that their work was their first priority both through words and actions. Their children know it too. And it probably does affect them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohdanigirl Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Well, no, that's not what I said or intended to say. I work part-time and have children that I homeschool, so I certainly don't think that women having something in addition to children in their lives is always damaging to children. But IMO a child needs to be a parent's priority. The parents who I refer to in my previous post (and perhaps I should have explained more thoroughly) are parents who not only feel being a parent isn't enough for them, it's not their PRIORITY. Their own wants are their priority. Their child's needs are secondary. I believe in attachment parenting, and I will also admit that I think quantity is just as important as quality time with a child. Should a child be more important than one's job? I say, yes. Does that mean that I think a woman cannot work and have children without doing damage to them? Well, no, but again, I do think kids need quantity time with their parents if possible--obviously there are situations where this isn't possible. As I said, I do combine work with raising my children right now. I certainly have plenty of interests outside of my children, too. And yes, I did know the woman who wrote the article was a professor at Yale. See, when I read you other post priority was what I took from it. I had to go back and reread it to see what Lbrarylover was referring to. It seems it can be tough when communicating in writing. Danelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Statistically, 'successful' women have 'successful' children. The woman who wrote the article wants her children to know even greater success than she has known. She's not giving up her career for them, nor should she have to. Her work hasn't turned them into children (so far) who don't want to be successful. I don't think this is what she is saying at all. There is a big difference between choosing/needing to work in addition to caring for your children and putting your own needs/desires ahead of caring for your children. I work part time and when ds asked me why I couldn't stay home with him we discussed all the activities he enjoys and benefits from and how I have to work to be able to pay for those things. He knows I choose work I enjoy and I might be disappointed if I couldn't work, but that ultimately my family comes first and I would quit if it were in the best interests of the family. I also have a friend who is a doctor and a parent of 3 young children. She borders on being a workaholic but she is working so hard so that she can give her children as many opportunities as possible, and I think her children (at least the older one) know this. Conversely, I have known parents who made it clear that their work was their first priority both through words and actions. Their children know it too. And it probably does affect them. Edited January 9, 2011 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Statistically, 'successful' women have 'successful' children. The woman who wrote the article wants her children to know even greater success than she has known. She's not giving up her career for them, nor should she have to. I didn't say she should. If it seemed that was what I meant, I didn't express myself clearly. It appears from the article that her children are her first priority, and they know it. That doesn't mean they are her only priority or that she can't do anything else. But there are plenty of parents whose children are not their first priority, and they know it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Chinese -American women who push their kids and work is a different animal then? 'Western' women who work don't care quite so much, and their children know it? There seems to be sweeping generalizations about Western women & their children in your OP which defies the statistics of successful mothers having successful off-spring. I admit I am confused by what you're saying. I'm sorry about that. I didn't say she should. If it seemed that was what I meant, I didn't express myself clearly. It appears from the article that her children are her first priority, and they know it. That doesn't mean they are her only priority or that she can't do anything else. But there are plenty of parents whose children are not their first priority, and they know it too. Edited January 9, 2011 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Heather, maker of the most ginormous threads ever. :lol::lol::lol::lol: She does seem to have a gift. ;) :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Heather, maker of the most ginormous threads ever. There you go again, showing off with your fancy portmanteau word usage. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirth Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 You know you're talking to a lawyer when ... the label "Chinese mother" can be so complex so as to actually exclude those in the group identifiable as Chinese mothers. To wit: "I'm using the term 'Chinese mother' loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term 'Western parents' loosely. Western parents come in all varieties. " Anyway, if the above could be true, then couldn't "Mommy, look—it's easy!" (after 6 hours of screaming and piano practice) actually mean "Mommy, find your meds and take them! Because you're acting like an insane witch and I hate you." It's plausible ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Chinese -American women who push their kids and work is a different animal then? 'Western' women who work don't care quite so much, and their children know it? There seems to be sweeping generalizations about Western women & their children in your OP which defies the statistics of successful mothers having successful off-spring. I admit I am confused by what you're saying. I'm sorry about that. I actually wasn't making a distinction between Chinese and western mothers, or mothers of any other culture. I kinda forgot that's where the thread started. Oops. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 There you go again, showing off with your fancy portmanteau word usage. :D LOL! d00d, ginormous is, like, a real word now! :lol: the dictionary says so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Growing up in the Seattle area, I had a lot of Asian friends, many of the children had moms like this to one degree or another. For most who did not take it to crazy extremes, it was a positive in their lives, they were pushed and found areas where they excelled. However, I had a friend who committed suicide in college partly because he didn't feel he was measuring up to these kind of standards. His little sister was valedictorian that year, her speech started out "This is a completely different speech than I had planned to make X months ago...". She talked about what happened and the things that were truly important in life, there was hardly a dry eye in the place when she finished. American moms could use a bit more of what the article was talking about, and many "Chinese moms" could use a bit less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) The bold is what I was responding to. The assumption that these children could understand one thing: their pushing (and working) mother loves them deeply, while Western children could know another: which was that their mothers' working meant the children knew they weren't the main focus, and so the outcome was poor. Sorry if I misunderstood. --- Something that I took from the article that perhaps she didn't say in so many words was that (regardless of how we view her behavior) she loves her children deeply and her children understand this. They know that their mother loves and is utterly devoted to them and their success. She expects VERY MUCH from them, and I don't know if that's good or bad or worth it or how it will play out over the children's lives. I think teaching children that they can do hard things and succeed is important. But do I approach it the author's way? Well, no. in Western parenting (some families) that I feel might contribute to poor outcomes with kids, well, I don't want to make generalizations, but I have more than once encountered Western parents who make comments like, "I could never only be X's mother." Their young baby and child is not their main focus. The child, right from the get-go, knows and understands this, if not consciously then subconsciously. Obviously, this contributes to the way children feel toward their parents. ---- I actually wasn't making a distinction between Chinese and western mothers, or mothers of any other culture. I kinda forgot that's where the thread started. Oops. :D Edited January 9, 2011 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Anyway, if the above could be true, then couldn't "Mommy, look—it's easy!" (after 6 hours of screaming and piano practice) actually mean "Mommy, find your meds and take them! Because you're acting like an insane witch and I hate you." It's plausible ... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: This made me laugh out loud literally. tee hee. I like your sense of humor. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 That's exactly what I'm saying. :) LOL! d00d, ginormous is, like, a real word now! :lol: the dictionary says so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 You know you're talking to a lawyer when ... the label "Chinese mother" can be so complex so as to actually exclude those in the group identifiable as Chinese mothers. To wit: "I'm using the term 'Chinese mother' loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term 'Western parents' loosely. Western parents come in all varieties. " Anyway, if the above could be true, then couldn't "Mommy, look—it's easy!" (after 6 hours of screaming and piano practice) actually mean "Mommy, find your meds and take them! Because you're acting like an insane witch and I hate you." :iagree: :lol: This made me laugh out loud literally. tee hee. I like your sense of humor. It's plausible ... :iagree::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 :iagree: Anecdotal, but just watch the auditions of American Idol!! Not only can many not cope with disappointment, many have had smoke blown up their you know whats and can't fathom that they aren't good. IMO the self esteem movement in our country has done some serious damage to common sense, real self confidence and encourages mediocrity. I absolutely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm mostly irritated at her stereotypes of westerners and her insensitivity to my customs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 This is an interesting article if not shocking. I'm new to these boards, my wife tends to spend more time on them. But when she told me about this article it immediately reminded me of a book that contradicts this article almost directly: The book is called Flow: http://www.amazon.com/Flow-Psychology-Experience-Mihaly-Csikszentmihalyi/dp/0060920432 Which is a branch of psychology that is interested in how to obtain the optimal experience - when you immerse yourself in an activity so thoroughly that you lose track of time. Numerous studies have found that certain kinds of people have the ability to enter flow almost at will. And there are certain ways parents can raise their child so they are more able to enter flow. Wikipedia talks about flow here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) "According to CsÃkszentmihályi, flow is completely focused motivation. It is a single-minded immersion and represents perhaps the ultimate in harnessing the emotions in the service of performing and learning. In flow the emotions are not just contained and channeled, but positive, energized, and aligned with the task at hand. To be caught in the ennui of depression or the agitation of anxiety is to be barred from flow. The hallmark of flow is a feeling of spontaneous joy, even rapture, while performing a task." I actually read the book above and blogged about it - this blogpost is especially relevant: http://tempeturleymusings.blogspot.com/2009/11/flow-families-teenagers.html "Unconditional acceptance is especially important to children. If parents threaten to withdraw their love from a child when they fail to measure up, the child's natural playfulness will be gradually replaced by chronic anxiety. However, if the child feels that his parents are unconditionally committed to his welfare, he can then relax and explore the world without fear; otherwise he has to allocate psychic energy to his own protection, thereby reducing the amount he can freely dispose of. Early emotional security may well be one of the conditions that helps develop an autotelic personality in children. Without this, it is difficult to let go of the self long enough to experience flow. Love without strings attached does not mean, of course, that relationships should have no standards, no punishment for breaking the rules. When there is no risk attached to transgressing rules they becoming meaningless, and without meaningful rules an activity cannot be enjoyable. Children must know their parents expect certain things from them and that specific consequences will follow if they don't obey. But they must also recognize that no matter what happens, the parents' concern for them is not in question." What I fear is that this kind of "Chinese" parenting will lend itself toward an anxiety inducing child experience which is a barrier to flow. You need discipline and consequences, but you also need unconditional love and support. I think there are valid points in this article, but largely I pretty strongly disagree. Parenting so children know how to enter flow, I find to be a concept that resonates. Ultimately, our children will succeed if they find activities that will lend themselves to flow - that obssessive focus, playing the violin for hours out of pure joy - that is the superior path - in my view. Well then. Welcome and where the heck have you been??! Dd engages in all hobbies that are self directed in theis fashion. 3 hours a day on guitar . I merely pay to replace strings etc and for her once a week lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Am I the only one whose been telling her kids, "You can thank God that I'm not a 'Chinese Mother' - now stop whining and do your 15 min. of piano practice!"? BTW - in Japan, this kind of mother is called an "education mama". Not all Japanese moms are "education mamas" but there is a good group of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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