Ibbygirl Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 And now I have officially fallen far off course. Where is my 4-wheel-drive? :D I think it's over by page one of this thread. :D:tongue_smilie::lol:;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 I think it's over by page one of this thread. :D:tongue_smilie::lol:;) Oh. Well in that case...what shall we talk about now? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Oh. Well in that case...what shall we talk about now? :D Hmmmm...... Health Care?? ;) :D :tongue_smilie::auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knit247 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I haven't read the replies, but I would like a Chinese mother for a few months, please. I need someone to whip me back into shape (not just physically!) and I don't seem to be doing it on my own :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca VA Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I want to know...why Chinese children aren't allowed to play any other instruments except piano and violin. (I'm basing this off what Mrs. Chua says in her article.) How can you possibly get an orchestra together if everyone plays the same instruments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 What if you have twins in the same class? They can't both be first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 What if you have twins in the same class? They can't both be first! They can tie for first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I want to know...why Chinese children aren't allowed to play any other instruments except piano and violin. (I'm basing this off what Mrs. Chua says in her article.) How can you possibly get an orchestra together if everyone plays the same instruments? I've wondered the same thing. A neighbor lady, who is Chinese, brought up her son (summa cum laude from Harvard, PhD Stanford, now a professor) much like the article describes. He played violin, and she couldn't understand why I would even entertain the thought of allowing my son to play the sax, *such an ugly instrument* according to her. I imagine our differences are a matter of taste, but there are no Asian kids in my son's bands, and his school has a lot of Asians and a serious music program with many bands and orchestras. Regarding the article, the following is an interesting excerpt from the Becker-Posner blog (U of Chicago professors): http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2011/01/implications-of-international-comparisons-of-student-performance-becker.html Japan and other Asian countries typically place much greater emphasis on rote learning and memorization than does the United States and some European nations. South Korea, Japan, and Hong Kong rank high on the PISA tests, much higher than the US. However, America is the world leader in game-changing creativity and innovations, far above these other countries. Perhaps America’s lead is related in part to the emphasis that the American education system places on creative thinking rather than memorizing what famous people have said. Russia provides another interesting example. Russia has produced many outstanding mathematicians and scientists, yet the Russian Federation ranks quite low on the PISA tests in mathematics and science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 My husband and I are watching last season's Biggest Loser (we don't have a tv but discovered Hulu). There is an Asian lady Ada who just mentioned something about being a failure in the eyes of her parents and how much that has affected her life. My husband and I find this show fascinating. It seems to highlight how many people struggle with perseverance. In addition it's astonishing to me that rubbernecking is considered primetime television. Crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisychics Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hmmmmm.... I'm interested in reading her book. I thought I was "strict" making my kids play 30 minutes of piano everyday. I want to read a book that doesn't make me feel guilty. In our house, children have to learn piano and have a black belt in martial arts. :001_smile: People always ask me -"What if they don't want to?" I don't ask my kids if they want to play piano or go to martial arts, it's just part of their lives. It's like brushing teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLHCO Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I want to know...why Chinese children aren't allowed to play any other instruments except piano and violin. (I'm basing this off what Mrs. Chua says in her article.) How can you possibly get an orchestra together if everyone plays the same instruments? Well, I think that was partly humor, but I think what made it funny was the kernel of truth in it. It's not a "rule", but it sure does seem to be a trend, around here anyway. The silly thing is, most of these parents imagine their children playing somewhere in an orchestra, or a concert pianist, but you can't do many of these master works without a good trombone, percussionist, or bassoon. Perhaps they feel the trombone is for the inferior musicians in the group and they don't want their child to be inferior, but I dare a violin to go against a trombone player in a dark alley, ya'know? Their violin will likely never be invited to a jazz concert either. Poor them. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 It may have to do with the maths and sciences. Supposedly, playing the piano helps develop the part of the brain that is key to success in those subjects academically. Not sure about violin (but maybe they own both, and do not want to invest in more instruments....). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLHCO Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 It may have to do with the maths and sciences. Supposedly, playing the piano helps develop the part of the brain that is key to success in those subjects academically. Not sure about violin (but maybe they own both, and do not want to invest in more instruments....). No, that would be the trombone. I swear, in college we had about 8 trombone players in our little concert band and they were all math and engineering majors. The band director said he once saw the college band of the Colorado School of Mines play. They had about 3 trumpets, one flute, and 15 trombones. :lol: I think that's why I picked trombone for my comments above, based on that experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hmmmmm.... I'm interested in reading her book. I thought I was "strict" making my kids play 30 minutes of piano everyday. I want to read a book that doesn't make me feel guilty. In our house, children have to learn piano and have a black belt in martial arts. :001_smile: People always ask me -"What if they don't want to?" I don't ask my kids if they want to play piano or go to martial arts, it's just part of their lives. It's like brushing teeth. Those are the exact same two "forced" extra curriculars we have! Dh is a classically trained pianist, and he is determined ds will have an appreciation for music, which he feels is best acquired by playing piano and listening to/learning about the works of famous composers. He says ds can stop piano in a few years if he wants to switch to another instrument though. And we both feel very strongly that he needs the skills to defend himself if necessary. We count it as his PE too. Plus martial arts is our family activity - we all practice together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLHCO Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 And we both feel very strongly that he needs the skills to defend himself if necessary. We count it as his PE too. Plus martial arts is our family activity - we all practice together. How cool! I wish we had the time/money to do something like that. I've always thought self-defense was important, as well as the other skills that accompany this study, but to add it as a family activity that you all do together, that's quite unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I want to know...why Chinese children aren't allowed to play any other instruments except piano and violin. (I'm basing this off what Mrs. Chua says in her article.) How can you possibly get an orchestra together if everyone plays the same instruments? Perhaps this: "The holder of the first violin is called the Concertmaster. The "first-chair" violinist (to the conductor's immediate left) supervises the tuning of the orchestra and is a vital liaison between the conductor and the orchestra" and this: "But as the position of the conductor developed into one where the conductor was no longer playing an actual instrument, the first violinist assumed the position of the most powerful instrumentalist in the orchestra. Concertmasters today deal with a wide range of responsibilities, and have to know how to conduct in case the conductor is temporarily unavailable at a rehearsal." has something to do with it. It would certainly fit with the desire to be "the best." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyofsixreboot Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 No, that would be the trombone. I swear, in college we had about 8 trombone players in our little concert band and they were all math and engineering majors. The band director said he once saw the college band of the Colorado School of Mines play. They had about 3 trumpets, one flute, and 15 trombones. :lol: I think that's why I picked trombone for my comments above, based on that experience. LOL, because my math genius, Asperger kiddo plays the trombone. I thought it was because he had fat lips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Yo Yo Ma has a funny story about how he came to play the cello. (His father was an accomplished violinist.) He's obviously anything but a failure at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisychics Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Those are the exact same two "forced" extra curriculars we have! Dh is a classically trained pianist, and he is determined ds will have an appreciation for music, which he feels is best acquired by playing piano and listening to/learning about the works of famous composers. He says ds can stop piano in a few years if he wants to switch to another instrument though. And we both feel very strongly that he needs the skills to defend himself if necessary. We count it as his PE too. Plus martial arts is our family activity - we all practice together. :001_smile: That's great! I'm the only one that doesn't train with them. Once my son is in the adult class, I will join. We live at our martial arts school in the afternoons already. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Of course, it's necessary to have the disposable family income to require things like piano, violin, and martial arts. Gladwell discusses that in Outliers too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvingLife Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Lol, this is kind of what my mom is like, and my dad! I like being pushed and challenged, but I think sometimes it is too extreme! But you can't argue with the results...:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura in CA Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Perhaps this: "The holder of the first violin is called the Concertmaster. The "first-chair" violinist (to the conductor's immediate left) supervises the tuning of the orchestra and is a vital liaison between the conductor and the orchestra" and this: "But as the position of the conductor developed into one where the conductor was no longer playing an actual instrument, the first violinist assumed the position of the most powerful instrumentalist in the orchestra. Concertmasters today deal with a wide range of responsibilities, and have to know how to conduct in case the conductor is temporarily unavailable at a rehearsal." has something to do with it. It would certainly fit with the desire to be "the best." Yes, it's about prestige. Piano and violin are prestigious instruments. And orchestras need a LOT of violins and only a handful each of brass & woodwinds. We always find it amusing at the San Francisco Symphony orchestra to note that almost all of the violin players are Asian, and there are NO Asians NOT playing violin (not even cello or bass -- and not, heaven forbid, a "low-class" instrument like trombone or clarinet!!). :lol: A Korean mom once told me she didn't quite approve of her daughter's playing the trumpet in the local high-school jazz band; she let her do it, but thought it was a waste of time. (The daughter just graduated from Stanford, by the way.) Well, I think that was partly humor, but I think what made it funny was the kernel of truth in it. It's not a "rule", but it sure does seem to be a trend, around here anyway. The silly thing is, most of these parents imagine their children playing somewhere in an orchestra, or a concert pianist, but you can't do many of these master works without a good trombone, percussionist, or bassoon. Perhaps they feel the trombone is for the inferior musicians in the group ... Yes, totally. And there is more than a "kernel" of truth in it. Witness the SF symphony, and even the local youth orchestra. In fact, my 15yo son switched from violin to (gasp!) viola 18 months ago, mainly b/c he didn't want to practice 3 hours a day (or even half an hour a day LOL) on violin to keep up with the Asian-American kids who totally dominate the string section in the youth orchestra. He is now highly-sought-after for playing in pits and small ensembles, because there aren't that many viola players out there. He just played in the pit for the local "Nutcracker" (8 performances) and was just asked to play in a local production of "You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown." There is NO way he would have made it into the pit for either of those if he were still on violin ... the competition is just too fierce with all the Asian-Americans (and a handful of white kids). He LOVES playing in pit orchestras -- the buzz of the performance, plus the fun music, plus the relative anonymity of the pit, perhaps ... Anyway, I can't decide whether I admire his savvy (at age 14, realizing how to work the system!) or whether I feel like a slacker-mom for letting him bail on the violin (I AM half-Asian, after all, and it's pretty engrained to push for being the best in everything ...) BTW my kids & I loved the video shared in this thread about the two boys pretending to be a mom and a kid with a B+ on his report card. Here's another video by an Indian-Canadian comedian (warning: strong language!!) that my 13yo son was introduced to by his Chinese-American roommate at math camp last summer -- the Asian kid would quote from this video; it obviously struck a chord with him. (It's good these kids growing up in such households have humor to help them cope!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI OK, one more thing to stuff into this post: my sister-in-law is Chinese; she's 32, and came to the US at age 27. She is writing a book about her life growing up in China, which will include much criticism of the Chinese-communist education system (a PP was right, it's the schools that impose discipline on Chinese kids. The kids were forced to sit for hours with their hands behind them and not move a muscle. She fantasized about putting her feet up on the desk, but never dared do it.) Anyway, I'll just quote from some of her (horrified) emails about the WSJ article: You know I think the problem of this lady is that usually neurotic people do not know they are neurotic, and she is even proud of it. The result of being raised up in a distorted way like that, either by abusing parents or government, is that 1) you hate it 2) you take it as life 3) you think it's great. Not everyone ended up in 1) and in fact a lot of them ended up in 3). I just can't believe that wsj is promoting this. ... Yeah I know this is a free country, but what I don't understand is why major media are promoting this type of out of date fobby things. Even Chinese don't really do the same way anymore. I sent this to my friends yesterday and they were all furious. One of my friends said "please don't represent my mother! She is not as disgusting as you are!" ... Yeah i should remember that is why i hated my media job so much that i did not even remember very much! I hope someone can reach a right point at the end. This is such a freaky immigrant thing. I don't think there is any value that worth learning for Americans. Even her valid points, there is a book written by Dave's Stanford soccer fellow called Nurture Shock covered all in a much more scientific and sensible way. But I guess for media moderate and reasonable means not enough eyeballs. OK, one last thing ... most Asian and Indian families we know place a high value on education but are not abusive ... we attended the local MathCounts competition last weekend, over a hundred kids from all over town, and I couldn't help noticing that there were several Asian and Indian *grandparents* attending to cheer on their grandkids ... but a lot of the white kids didn't even have their own parents there to watch, much less older siblings and grandparents. There just seems to be more family support for academic events in these families, whereas I've seen some of the white families (who were *not* at MathCounts) sit for hours in freezing weather at sports events, or sit watching ballet rehearsals for hours ... just a different emphasis. I'm not saying the Asian/Indian kids are better off overall (and certainly many of them do sports & dance) -- just that academic pursuits are valued -- and can be, without it being neurotic helicopter parenting! ~Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabelen Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 @Laura in CA, we love Rusell Peters. We are a South Asian/White Hispanic immigrant family and really appreciate his humor. My 6 yo is quite good at imitating him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura in CA Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 @Laura in CA, we love Rusell Peters. We are a South Asian/White Hispanic immigrant family and really appreciate his humor. My 6 yo is quite good at imitating him! Gosh, Russell Peters is SO funny! That's cute that your 6yo imitates him :001_smile: I sent the clip above to my brothers (we grew up with a strict Asian dad) and they both thought it was hilarious. I also think it's funny that it was a Chinese-American kid who introduced us to a South Asian comic, but the cultures are obviously quite similar! ~Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLHCO Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 OK, one more thing to stuff into this post: my sister-in-law is Chinese; she's 32, and came to the US at age 27. She is writing a book about her life growing up in China, which will include much criticism of the Chinese-communist education system (a PP was right, it's the schools that impose discipline on Chinese kids. The kids were forced to sit for hours with their hands behind them and not move a muscle. She fantasized about putting her feet up on the desk, but never dared do it.) My sister-in-law is from Japan and my brother worked there for a few years after they were first married. He said there was a very strong cultural pressure to never take a risk to step out of what society/authority has placed before you. My sister-in-law agreed to move to the US with him when she wanted to get her teaching degree and do some educational work herself, instead of devoting all of her energies to just making sure her boys were academically superior in every way, according to defined cultural standards. Additionally, my half-Japanese nephews acted too "western" according to the schools there. They did not conform in the same way as the other kids there did and they felt trouble would follow them. So, perhaps if Asian culture has decided violin has a prestige viola doesn't, you will be hard pressed to find anything but a bunch of violin players? I do admire their work ethic, which we seem to have lost, but it would seem diversity isn't valued in the same way it is here. As for communist China, it makes me wonder if some of the deeply cultural trends made them more at risk to finding themselves under such a harsh system. I can't imagine a US parent letting little Jimmy Joe having to sit for hours like that, though I do remember reading about Almanzo Wilder's assessment of school in Farmer Boy, so it's hard to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 No, that would be the trombone. I swear, in college we had about 8 trombone players in our little concert band and they were all math and engineering majors. The band director said he once saw the college band of the Colorado School of Mines play. They had about 3 trumpets, one flute, and 15 trombones. :lol: I think that's why I picked trombone for my comments above, based on that experience. LOL, because my math genius, Asperger kiddo plays the trombone. I thought it was because he had fat lips. Well my bright DS (whose weakest subjects are science, then math) plays the trombone. And his band teacher says he always needs trombones. Always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I often get asked, as an early childhood music specialist in a university program, what instrument a child should play to help them get into X name college-violin or piano. My usual answer "Something unusual that they love". Seriously. Universities and conservatories don't have to give scholarships for violinists or pianists. Good programs have more of each than they need running out of their ears. Flute is similar. Clarinet and trumpet for schools with large music ed programs. Jazz Saxophone, Drum set, and guitar for Jazz schools. But a good bassoonist, or string bass player, or tuba player can probably get a scholarship almost anywhere. Oboe too. And doublers are of high value, too-a clarinetist who only plays clarinet isn't going to be as likely to get a scholarship as a slightly less strong clarinetist who is also able to play flute and saxophone. And one who is even a mediocre oboe player is even more valued when it comes to scholarship offers or orchestra roles. And every single unusual instrument probably has some college/university somewhere with an endowed scholarship for that instrument alone, which usually goes unclaimed. For example, if your kid is a budding computer engineer and would be wonderful at Carnegie Mellon, teach him bagpipes. I helped a high school student find a scholarship recently which will let him study Literature and writing. And, oh, yeah, he'll be playing the Mandolin, too. As a result, I find the focus on violin and piano humorous. There are good reasons to study either-violin does a wonderful job of ear training, and piano is required for many music degrees and being a good pianist and able to accompany is very, very useful indeed-but as far as getting into college, or even into your local youth orchestra, both are actually very weak instruments because they ARE so common. And when you add that most of the kids who study Violin or piano from early years know the same repertoire, it makes it even harder for the child to stand out. Frankly, when you work college auditions, the LAST thing you want to hear is any song from any Suzuki volume, no matter how difficult or well played it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 The methods may be a bit extreme, but I can see her point... I was raised very undisciplined by a very undisciplined single mother and I am definitely paying the price now...I don't wish I was raised quite like that, but do wish something was expected of me other than actually showing up at school and not causing any problems...As long as my mom didn't have to go to school for something, or get involved in some way, then I was doing good...It didn't matter if I did my work or not... I am not going to go as far as the article states, but I will take what was said into comsideration... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 But a good bassoonist, or string bass player, or tuba player can probably get a scholarship almost anywhere. Oboe too. And doublers are of high value, too-a clarinetist who only plays clarinet isn't going to be as likely to get a scholarship as a slightly less strong clarinetist who is also able to play flute and saxophone. This just made me smile...in 8th grade, I believed I was going to be a music major (go into music education). I played flute and piano. I was good... not great, but good. Good enough to play in the band/orchestra, but not "great" to get scholarship money. I figured out I needed to learn to play something else. I wound up learning Clarinet, oboe, bassoon, sax, and was learning percussion. I did play bassoon in orchestra, and was all-county 1st chair -- had I not changed my college major from music to communication my Junior year of high school -- I guess I was at least on the "right path" for getting myself into a good college music program! I did take a music scholarship my freshman year -- but wound up loathing the music instructors there (I'd had tough instructors, but these were just jerks). I remember when the orchestra sign went up and they were looking for bassoonists, and PRAYING they didn't check my app and see I played bassoon. I also told someone else IN the orchestra that I played, but that they couldn't *pay me enough* to be a part of that program. It was awful. I have also thanked (as an adult), the best music instructor I ever had for his work. I know it is undervalued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappyhappymama Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I think the author goes to extremes, if what she's saying is not tongue-in-cheek, of course. I particularly hated what she did with the dollhouse and found that utterly damaging, to be honest. I don't think I'd go to her extreme here either, but how is this so much different than parents who box up their kids toys when they don't keep their rooms picked up? Or restrict their children from video games when they are not getting their school work done? I think it's pretty common practice across cultures to restrict fun activities or to withhold privileges when children are not completing their responsibilities adequately. I am appalled at the way we're raising children in America today. I am often angry that I have *zero* IRL support for high standards and a sober-minded approach to the future for my children. That said, I have no desire for the Chinese system as this mother describes it. I want to give my children the best of the West, and I really don't care if it isn't PC to put it that way. According to my understanding, America became great because it combined the humanities foundation of the west with the absolute need for creativity and ingenuity in the new world. Our family's American heroes are all well-educated, creative, competitive, and hearty people. I believe that is the type of American needed for the coming struggles. I would not write an article for the WSJ about my superior parenting skills before my children were even full-grown :tongue_smilie:but I will share on the WTM boards what I think is a good formula for my American children: 1. A rigorous western education. For me, this is only possible through homeschooling. I try to help my children learn with WTM, TOG, Latin, Logic, Rhetoric, and globally competitive math and science. I am very willing to be flexible with curriculum or learning styles, but they will all get there eventually. 2. A healthy body. We are involved with taekwondo and an outdoor lifestyle. I believe that taekwondo offers needed self-defense and bodily discipline. I believe that hiking, swimming, and climbing are activities that strengthen the body and lungs while leaving the child free to think his own thoughts and absorb the natural beauty around him. 3. Free time. Since my children were little, I have believed they need almost an hour of free time for every hour of directed study. That is when they assimilate what they've studied! And that is when they sort out their own thoughts. The type of education we are pursuing is full of ideas that need to be turned over in one's mind. That takes time. 4. Opportunities for creativity. This is the #1 difference between me and this "Chinese mother." If my son is not musical, he is not forced to play an instrument! If he is not an artist, he is not forced to draw beyond the drafting skills that are part of his schoolwork. If a child if mine *is* musical, he is never interrupted while he practices voluntarily. My musical child plays five instruments, and I've never told him to practice. If a child of mine *is* artistic, he is provided with a desk, an easel, and all the art supplies and instructional material that we can afford. My artistic child produces quantities of studied art, and I've never told him to practice. I see no value in creative expression if I have to beat it out of him. It becomes a thing despised, to him and to me, if it is not from his heart. 5. Inclusion in adult life and struggles. How can our children be problem-solvers if they never have any problems and never observe adults solving problems creatively? Thankfully, for us this is a built-in part of life. We are upper-working/lower-middle class, blue collar folks, and our children are home with us most of the time. Therefore, our problems are their problems, and no one is handed anything on a silver platter. They deal with home and auto repair, financial struggles, making do, and doing without on a very regular basis. The older two (ages 12 and 14) are able to contribute ideas now instead of just helping and observing. 6. A foundation of faith and spiritual values. In our family, that means Christianity. We try to live the values of John 3:16 (For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life), I Corinthians 13 (the definition of love), and Galations 6 (the fruits of the spirit). Whether my children grow to share my faith in Jesus Christ is not within my power, but I hope that they will be guided for life by the home principles of loving their neighbor and being upright and good. Of course, the first way to model love and acceptance of our fellow man is to demonstrate love and acceptance toward our children. These children are cherished, not berated. Loved, not insulted. At least we try, and at least we do not brag about berating and insulting. A rigorous education. A healthy body. Free time. Creativity. Struggle. Faith. For this American mother raising four sons, this is how to grow a man. I have no desire to produce cookie-cutter children in a pressure cooker home. I want hale, hearty, intelligent, and creative children who are firmly grounded in the benevolent humanities of the west. As a mother of four sons myself, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Lots of good thoughts and ideas to meditate on here! However, I did have to giggle a little at the fact that your best "American" and "western" ideas included the study of Latin, classical studies (an ancient-Greek based approach), and asian-sourced martial arts. :tongue_smilie: As a "American mother," I think one can pull from the best practices of various cultures, yes even including the rigorous expectations (if not the exact methodology) of the "Chinese mother." What a great article! Unlike some other posters, I do not see this mom as abusive or unkind. From the article (bolding mine) "In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently. They see the potential and believe in their children enough to help them get there~no easy task as most of us who homeschool know. I think the statement you've bolded is also my biggest takeaway from this article. I'm East Asian and grew up in a home like this. So did the majority of my peers. We are all fine, and are no more or less dysfunctional than our Caucasian peers! It does come up in conversation, particularly as we become parents. Of nine total children, my parents raised five professionals (lawyers, doctors, engineers) and a teacher (working towards professorship). Oh, and me :) I'm a flight attendant. They're not thrilled but I went to university blah blah blah to study what they wanted me to. I felt/feel no guilt choosing my career. My youngest sibling is a college sophomore, undecided btwn architecture and med school, parents pushing for med school. We are all accomplished musicians and played sports. Another sibling died midway through med school. Not by suicide fwiw. On that, we seem less depressed than lots of my American peers complain to be. I'm raising my kids more Asian style than American. Their (white) dad approves, probably bc he grew up the same as a child who immigrated here. I thnk it's a generational thing as much as ethnic. We live in a high achieving white area where most kids are raised similarly, though IMO way more coddled and falsely pumped (self-esteem, worth). Pardon typos, pls. I'm on my phone and my fingers are fat. Ask my mom ;) My stepmother is Chinese. Her and my dad have two boys that are ages 10 and 12. I just visited with them over the new year and we actually talked a lot about methods of education. Her boys are Julliard material when it comes to playing the piano. They are in advanced classes at school and, of course, make all A's. They're great kids; kind and respectful and happy.She has emphasized academics with them since they were 3. They did "school at home" until they entered Kindergarten and do school every summer with her. In fact, last summer she bought the math book (Algebra) that they would be in this year and made them go through it the summer before school started, so that it would only be reinforcement when they learned it in class. She is amazing and I have learned a lot from her. However, we disagree on points. I think ideas are more important than math and music. Learning to read and love difficult and beautiful language is important to me. Learning the Great Ideas throughout history is important to me. Learning to recognize truth and love truth is important. Learning how to speak and write those ideas in order to influence others for good, is most important to me. I could care less about my children finishing Calculus by their Sophomore year or how well they can play piano, just as long as they can play. She didn't understand. Just a difference in priorities and a difference in culture; not better or worse. I have to admit, I am very intrigued by these stories. Academic excellence is the number 1 reason we choose to homeschool our children, and reading this makes me want to step things up a notch with my own children. "Assuming strength, not fragility." I think I have my motto for the year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappyhappymama Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Also, this article/mindset presents a very narrow view of "success." The only things worth working on are academics and music? Quite frankly, drama can be a talent, even if it is unlikely to pay later. Likewise with sports. My goal, even if I'm far from it, is to raise well rounded kids, not kids who can only excel in one narrow field and never work on their other abilities. If we were solely concerned with having our kids perform at Carnegie at 17 we would have limited our family size, I would be working, and we would be training our kids quite differently. My goal is so vitally different than this woman's that it's fairly irrelevant to me. I think we do see this approach used here in the US. Think high school football coaches. Or Olympic gymnastics coaches. There are many, many people who see no harm in this same type of berating attitude, and even claim it is necessary in order to achieve the highest levels of athletic success. I'm not advocating this necessarily. But I don't see why it is so unbelievable that the so-called "Chinese mother" approach would not actually work, when it comes to academic excellence or musical prowess. In fact, we decided not allow our child to pursue gymnastics beyond a certain point, because we weren't willing to dedicate the time and effort it would have required, and the single-minded focus for our entire family. Like the poster above, for our family, the choice is for more of a well-rounded approach. But inherent in this is also accepting that our children will probably not perform in the upper echelons of any sport or music or other pursuit. Not that they cannot be successful, but I think that world-class in any discipline takes a level of dedication beyond what most folks would consider to be "normal" or even healthy. I do find it very interesting that many of the world-class athletes in asian countries are selected at very young ages to begin training in a certain sport. Most are too young to have shown any particular athletic aptitude, other than perhaps the right potential body style for their sport. However through intense coaching and training, they become elite athletes. Perhaps it is not so surprising that a group of children of varying aptitudes, given the same level of intense focus and coaching, could perform at such high levels academically as well. My husband and I also tried years ago to workout together, coaching each other along. We found that it did not work for us AT.ALL. because my husband's idea of coaching someone physically stems from his many years of baseball and football as a child. However, I do not perform well, and am not motivated by being berated or told I am slacking and need to pick up the pace. In fact, I find it to be a demotivator, and I fear I would not have done well as the child of a "Chinese mother." My husband insists that the boys on his sports teams did not take it personally, but rather as a challenge to do better and prove the coaches wrong. This article reveals a fairly narrow definition of success. It's also racist. Many Chinese and other immigrant parents would be concerned for their child's holistic well-being, just as many Western parents help their children to understand that mastery only comes through effort and practice. I'm surprised people are giving the thumbs up to such a piece. Besides its acceptance of emotional abuse as a way of raising and motivating children, its obviously written to gain publicity - like all 'oh my, I'm so controversial' pieces are - rather than a serious look at what we can all learn from each other culturally. We can disagree about whether calling a child names like 'fatty' is abuse - I think we could all agree that it;s inefficient parenting that is unlikely to achieve the goal of raising a healthy child. There are many incredible things about Western culture and I am tired of hearing it denigrated. Caring about your child's psyche doesn't equate to weak parenting. I'm finding this conversation frustrating, and although there are many people here calling this article out for what it is - abuse - the number of people praising it is truly disturbing to me. I'm not sure how the article could be considered 'racist.' It is a Chinese woman, describing what she considers to be an ideal "Chinese mother." The author even makes it clear that she recognizes that not every Chinese woman parents this way, and that she has seen women from other cultures parent in this style as well. At no point does she claim that every Chinese person believes this to be the one and only way to parent. Surely it is not now racist to recognize commonalities among many people of a certain culture, even if they are not traits we value? I also find it interesting how many people take this as an affront to Americans. Yet the math book by Liping Ma is almost universally praised here on the boards. I learned a lot from her book, but I have to say, she is pretty contemptuous of the American teachers and pretty supportive of the Chinese teachers. But not considered racist, because we happen to agree with her? Edited January 12, 2011 by scrappyhappymama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I heard the author today on the Diane Rehm show. She came across as MUCH less controversial than she did in the WSJ piece, I have to say. Several children of Chinese immigrants called in, by the way to contribute their thoughts. She also emphasized that she grew and changed her own approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I do find it very interesting that many of the world-class athletes in asian countries are selected at very young ages to begin training in a certain sport. Most are too young to have shown any particular athletic aptitude, other than perhaps the right potential body style for their sport. However through intense coaching and training, they become elite athletes. Perhaps it is not so surprising that a group of children of varying aptitudes, given the same level of intense focus and coaching, could perform at such high levels academically as well. Yao Ming's parents were "encouraged" to marry because they are both extremely tall and were basketball players. So I guess some are not just selected, they are bred. From wikipedia: Yao is the only child of 6 ft 7 in (2.01 m) Yao Zhiyuan and 6 ft 3 in (1.90 m) Fang Fengdi,[2] both of whom were former professional basketball players.[3] At 11 pounds (5.0 kg), Yao weighed more than twice as much as the average Chinese newborn,[4] and he grew to be 5 feet 5 inches (1.65 m) by age ten.[5] At that age, he was examined by sports doctors, who predicted that he would grow to 7 feet 3 inches (2.20 m).[5] Yao started playing basketball at age nine, and he went to a junior sports school at the same age.[6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Yao Ming's parents were "encouraged" to marry because they are both extremely tall and were basketball players. So I guess some are not just selected, they are bred. Or maybe his mother wanted a sporty, tall man? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 lived it. On the one hand, I am amused about how white/Western people get so freaked out by this article. The meanness of Asian parents is LEGENDARY and par for the course. I always joke, "A good Asian mom is a mean mom." Asian stand up comedians always bring up the harshness of their childhood as their joke material. On the other hand, Asian parents are also crazy and the pursuit of material success and status is shallow. Let's see, I am within spitting distance of 40 and I thought I was past the influence of my upbringing or at least reconciled with it. During a jiu-jitsu class a few months ago, I commented on my lack of skill. The instructor (who only knows me casually) replied, "You know you are an @sshole to yourself, right?" So the drive for material success isn't the end all of parenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 :001_smile: That's great! I'm the only one that doesn't train with them. Once my son is in the adult class, I will join. We live at our martial arts school in the afternoons already. lol We do too - 5, sometimes 6 days a week. We love it there. And it is very family friendly - there are several families like ours of which several or all the members are students. Of course, it's necessary to have the disposable family income to require things like piano, violin, and martial arts. Gladwell discusses that in Outliers too. That is absolutely true. However, it is not without sacrifice, at least for us. Because it is a priority to us we give up other things to make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara in AZ Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I heard the author today on the Diane Rehm show. She came across as MUCH less controversial than she did in the WSJ piece, I have to say. Several children of Chinese immigrants called in, by the way to contribute their thoughts. She also emphasized that she grew and changed her own approach. Yes, I heard some of this, too, and was struck by how balanced she seemed. Of particular note to me were when she talked about her experience when her oldest daughter decided she didn't want to do violin anymore at around age 13. They had a huge blowup about it, but in the end she gave her daughter the option to quit. The daughter eventually realized she really liked playing the violin and took it back up and enjoys participating in school orchestra and making music. Mrs. Chua lamented that she won't be as good as she could have been when practicing 4 hours a day, but that she is happy her daughter is enjoying music and also enjoying other pursuits she was interested in as well that she didn't have time for when it was all violin. The other thing that struck me was that near the end of the interview she admitted to not being a parenting expert, refused to give any blanket overarching statements about how every parent "should" be, and emphasized that what is really important is the child/parent relationship. That the parent should really understand and honor who their child is and what they need whether it be lots of praise or pressure. I look forward to reading her book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Knoll Mom Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) I'm about half-way through the book and Ms. Chua comes across as much more kind and loving than she does in the WSJ. The WSJ piece is an edited excerpt of the very beginning of the book. In fact, it was edited to leave out the warm and fuzzy aspects of Ms. Chua's parenting. All in all, this is a memoir of her parenting journey as a first generation Chinese mothering second generation Chinese. It is not a "how to" manual. If you can't read the book, at least listen to the Diane Rehm interview linked above. Edited January 13, 2011 by Oak Knoll Mom missing word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I thought the discussion of how her own mother adapted to having a child with Down syndrome was touching. What she got from American culture was not putting her daughter away somewhere, and what she brought from her culture was the determination that her daughter (Cindy, I think her name is) be accomplished as well, in her own way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Originally Posted by Ibbygirl I just wonder what they would do with a child who had special needs I heard an interview with the author today and she addresses this very thing. She has a sister who has Down Syndrome. Her parents took a "western approach" with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thank you all so much for this update! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalknot Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Great post! lived it. On the one hand, I am amused about how white/Western people get so freaked out by this article. The meanness of Asian parents is LEGENDARY and par for the course. I always joke, "A good Asian mom is a mean mom." Asian stand up comedians always bring up the harshness of their childhood as their joke material. My siblings and I joke, too, that some of us were more loved than others :D I'm the lone no-prestige, blue-collar-employed, working class child (by personal choice; I have the education and connections to seek 'better' employ) and we joke that my parents eventually just gave up on me and cut their losses. I'm definitely the first one getting tossed off the lifeboat, or sacrificed up to feed the others LOL. Good for them I'm the meatiest of us all, too! Meanwhile, the parents continue to pressure my siblings to keep going further in their advanced studies or professional fields for that ever elusive pinnacle of prestige and recognition (whatever it is that will finally calm my parents down - we're not even sure THEY know when x will finally be enough to satisfy them LOL). Obviously, :D those siblings are more loved because our parents are investing more into them, and are more interested in seeing those kids "fulfill their potential". My white friends totally don't get this dynamic; they think I'm the more-loved child because my parents accept my choices (not openly, mind you! They have reputations to protect!) but my Asian friends get that weird Asian thing where the meaner the parent, the more love they're actually showing. On the other hand, Asian parents are also crazy and the pursuit of material success and status is shallow. Let's see, I am within spitting distance of 40 and I thought I was past the influence of my upbringing or at least reconciled with it. During a jiu-jitsu class a few months ago, I commented on my lack of skill. The instructor (who only knows me casually) replied, "You know you are an @sshole to yourself, right?" So the drive for material success isn't the end all of parenting. 'Tis true! My friend's mom is always asking me when I'm going to trade up (my car, to a 7-series like her kid is driving). I don't want one; I only drive the car I do now because my uber-competitive, over-achieving, dual-income/no-kid sister gave it to me when SHE upgraded! She's so focused on what I drive, what I'm wearing, etc. It's more amusing than anything, to me anyhow, but definitely illustrates the status/shallow thing. I realized how pervasive Asian parenting was when, early in our marriage, my husband came home from a training course at work and boasted that he had scored a 98/100 - top of his company by six points. The first thing out of my mouth was: "What happened to the other two points?" :001_huh: :lol: Glad I worked out that particular kink before I had my own kids, and certainly before I started to homeschool them! (I mean, in all honesty, I still think that but I'm much better at keeping that to myself instead of blabbing it right out.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm about half-way through the book and Ms. Chua comes across as much more kind and loving than she does in the WSJ. The WSJ piece is an edited excerpt of the very beginning of the book. In fact, it was edited to leave out the warm and fuzzy aspects of Ms. Chua's parenting. All in all, this is a memoir of her parenting journey as a first generation Chinese mothering second generation Chinese. It is not a "how to" manual. If you can't read the book, at least listen to the Diane Rehm interview linked above. Ugh! Why did the WSJ do this?? Did she speak about the article in the interview on Diane Rheem?? I would be so upset if I were mis-represented in a national publication like that. I'm very happy to hear that she is more balanced and loving than how they portrayed her. I heard an interview with the author today and she addresses this very thing. She has a sister who has Down Syndrome. Her parents took a "western approach" with her. And I'm happier still to hear that. Thank God! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 3. Free time. Since my children were little, I have believed they need almost an hour of free time for every hour of directed study. That is when they assimilate what they've studied! And that is when they sort out their own thoughts. The type of education we are pursuing is full of ideas that need to be turned over in one's mind. That takes time. I don't really have much to add to this thread but I did want to say that the quoted is where I struggled in the beginning of my hs'ing journey. Today, though, I sat back and just listened to my dds pretending to be Samurai warriors after our history lesson. In fact, I let science go for the day because they were so involved and having so much fun. I have figured out that on days where I let them process the information in bits instead of the end of the day it sticks and makes it all so much more worthwhile. I am working on having enough time in the day that they can truly process (through play, writing, art, etc.) what they are learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thank you all so much for this update! :iagree: If I had a more balanced idea of her process, I think I would have gotten a much better idea about it instead of just feeling gobsmacked! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara in AZ Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ugh! Why did the WSJ do this?? Did she speak about the article in the interview on Diane Rheem?? I would be so upset if I were mis-represented in a national publication like that. I'm very happy to hear that she is more balanced and loving than how they portrayed her. And I'm happier still to hear that. Thank God! :) I just had this conversation with my husband where I was blaming the WSJ for how she was represented. I didn't hear the whole interview, but according to my husband the WSJ article was brought up by a caller and Mrs. Chua didn't seem to think she had been mis-represented and acknowledged that those were here words and didn't apologize for them or suggest that they were exaggerated in any way. But as has been suggested, the book is more about her evolution as a mother. The article was based on the beginning of the book and I'm sure you get a much broader picture by reading the whole book than the WSJ article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Maybe the writer of the article is also her publicist, because that was truly brilliant marketing. Perhaps she will make the NYT Best Seller List next week.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I just had this conversation with my husband where I was blaming the WSJ for how she was represented. I didn't hear the whole interview, but according to my husband the WSJ article was brought up by a caller and Mrs. Chua didn't seem to think she had been mis-represented and acknowledged that those were here words and didn't apologize for them or suggest that they were exaggerated in any way. But as has been suggested, the book is more about her evolution as a mother. The article was based on the beginning of the book and I'm sure you get a much broader picture by reading the whole book than the WSJ article. Ay, I keep typing and erasing my response here. And my comments here are not directed at you personally, Sara, just want to put that out there so that there is no misunderstandings and so you know I'm not singling you out, but rather I wanted to address what you said here and use that as a springboard for my thoughts in general. I just want to be clear so there is no confusion. :) I don't know what to think about this woman, but the way I see it, the bottom line, is that she is selling a book. Maybe she didn't complain about the article's portrayal of her as being unbalanced because she stands to gain from the attention? Maybe I'm being too cynical? I don't know, but I feel as if I have wasted my emotions for several days now over this woman and her children and I feel a bit "used" now. Whether she's a good mom or not, balanced or not, I don't really care anymore. I don't want to expend any more emotions on this woman or her family. I wish her and her family well and I hope that she accomplishes what she set out to in writing this book, but I think I'll go and think some happy thoughts now. Now where did I put that chocolate..... :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbygirl Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Maybe the writer of the article is also her publicist, because that was truly brilliant marketing. Perhaps she will make the NYT Best Seller List next week.:D :iagree::iagree:You said what I was thinking much more succinctly than I ever could. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ugh! Why did the WSJ do this?? Did she speak about the article in the interview on Diane Rheem?? I would be so upset if I were mis-represented in a national publication like that. I'm very happy to hear that she is more balanced and loving than how they portrayed her. And I'm happier still to hear that. Thank God! :) She's gotten a lot of mileage out of that article and people will buy the book just to find out. Nothing sells books like controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.