Anyone want to help me out with a thought experiment??

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I've been searching for ways to encourage parents who aren't home educators (and, possibly, some who are) to think outside the K12 box. I'm trying to set up a thought experiment, described below...

 

***

What we all want, as parents, is to find the educational situation that matches the child’s particular blend of passions, abilities, and talents, meshes with our vision for our kids, and teaches to the child’s strengths while gently improving on weaknesses.

 

That is X: the place where the best possible learning happens.

 

X is unobtainable, of course. You’ll never find it, any more than you’ll find the perfect job, the perfect house, or the perfect spouse. (Or the perfect children, come to that.) X is ideal, so it always eludes our clutches.

 

But you can imagine X.

 

X has to equip your child to read, write, and understand maths. You’re doing a thought experiment, so everything else is up for grabs. The different subject areas we study in school have evolved in a haphazard and essentially unguided way over the last centuries, so don’t get hung up on them. Reading, writing, and math, though, are the ways in which civilized human beings have understood and transmitted culture since ancient times.

 

That’s it.

 

X doesn’t have to occupy twelve years. It doesn’t have to use textbooks and teachers. It doesn’t have to happen during a particular part of the day or year.

 

Forget about truancy laws and your work schedule. Forget about grades and college applications. You’re not worrying about those things right now (they all definitely belong to the imperfect Copy). Every time you think, “Well, that’s impossible!” stop yourself and consciously dismiss the objection. If you could educate your child in exactly the way that would best suit both of you, free of all restrictions and fears, what would that look like? 

 

This has nothing to do with getting into college. College is simply a future extension of the same artificial system that you’re trying to think your way out of. For the moment, put it out of your mind.

 

Here are a few questions to get you started.

 

What skills will this education develop? Skills: what the child can do. Skills can be  primarily mental (critical analysis, problem solving, synthesizing information, solving problems), or primarily practical (building a shed, installing wiring or plumbing, rotating tires, baking the perfect cream puff). Or skills can be a mix of the two (programming, bookkeeping, nursing/doctoring...)

 

What qualities? Qualities: who the child is.

 

Are there teachers, courses, external structures? Or does the child pursue his own learning?

 

Does this education involve travel?

 

Is it primarily active or book centered? Projects or written assignments?

 

What part does earning money play/not play in this scenario?

 

In what places does learning happen? Home, outdoors, institutions? (Schools are institutions, but so are museums, libraries, hospitals, courthouses, and stores.) 

 

Does this education involve any apprenticeships or internships? It’s a thought experiment, so you can apprentice your kid to a Supreme Court justice, or a master welder, or Jeff Bezos, or Gordon Ramsey (although that would be mean).

 

How does evaluation happen? Does the student take tests, write essays, perform a hands-on demonstration?

 

What does the day look like? When does the child get up? What occupies the bulk of the day? When does time with family happen?

 

 

How much unstructured time is there? When does the child play?

 

 

***

 

So, dear boardies, two questions:

 

1) What other questions would you add?

2) Want to share your Platonic vision of education with me? I'm really interested :)

 

FWIW, MY Platonic education would have many of the features of TWTM in it, but wouldn't be identical--because TWTM was written within the context of satisfying your local school board/getting into college. But I also think it's worthwhile to imagine education without either one of those restrictions.

 

SWB

[Jean in Newcastle]

Gordon Ramsey is kind to children on the Masterchef Junior shows that he does.  ;)

 

What does it mean to be educated?  I think it is having the vocabulary and the tools to interact with the world, allowing higher learning to take place.  You can get those tools in different ways and in different time tables depending on the children you are teaching.  Smaller groups of kids (homeschooled or otherwise) make it easier to individualize education. 

 

A question:  What do you see as the parent's primary responsibility as regards to education?  And what do you personally want to delegate?  (I don't delegate well.  Thus. . .  homeschooling almost everything myself.  )

[eternalsummer]

I'd give some consideration to an oral tradition.  Historically speaking, and even culturally speaking (outside a western focus, anyway), knowledge was transmitted orally, not in written form.  The only real place I see it in modern education is maybe drama, but I think having the skills to remember and retell a story you've only heard, not seen, are vital.

[8filltheheart]

In my mind, I have a hard time not thinking about college or career or an ability to function independently as an adult when I think about education.  I don't think institutional K12 schools have the answer, but providing the opportunity for them to explore areas of interests that leads to something they want to pursue as an adult is a goal for me.  It is a gift that I think that we as homeschoolers can provide our kids.

 

My ideal education for my kids would be lots of dirt, water, scraps of wood, rope, pulleys, etc and hours of outdoor time when they are young.  Letting them explore building things, experimenting (as in their messing aroudn with things, not an "experiment"), playing and figuring things out through their play. 

 

Academics focuses on the key areas--math, reading, writing, science, and history--but with appropriate time limits and age appropriate objectives.

 

By middle school, having hours to explore areas that interest them, but permission to change gears if they decide that they want to move on to something else.

 

High school designed by the student meeting their goals and interests but built around appropriate guidance about what they need to know to actually achieve the goals they have for themselves. 

 

In terms of life skills outside of academics....absolutely.  Understanding household management (and all of the skills that go along with that: cleaning, cooking, laundry, budgets, etc) and handyman experience are part of a balanced life experience and should be a focus as well.

 

Travel....in an imaginary world where $$ didn't matter, that would be a huge part of their educations.

[bookbard]

So you're trying to get people to think about their ideal education without the restrictions of tradition?

 

I'd be asking them to think about something THEY learned either as a young person or adult, and how they did so. For example, I've been interested in native bees lately. I might join the fb community group focused on local native bees, where there's discussions between people who might be both beginners and experts. I might enrol in a local course, led by someone who is passionate and experienced in the area, and yet may not have any letters after their name. I might experiment with native bee 'hotels' and devote some time to observation in my local area. I might write up a journal or start a blog about the bees in my area. I might search for some books, read the reviews to find the best one, compare different accounts. 

 

To me, a great deal of learning involves community - from the other people who write books to the other people who run courses to the other people who are beginners like me, who might ask questions I hadn't thought of yet.

 

So, I would ensure your thought experiment included a broader question about community than just apprenticeships (even though I am all for apprenticeships), because I feel that community is essential.

 

I like Papert's writings, and I like his constructionism, which is learning by making something that you're interested in, and share with your peers. The making and the peers are an essential part of the learning.

[scholastica]

1) I would add a question about what place the development of virtue occupies.

 

2) My ideal vision for education is one that is based as much on finding truth, goodness and beauty in all that is studied as it is on acquiring skills. Skills are important, but of equal importance is "poetic knowledge" - to really see and know the world and thus see the Creator. In addition, the purpose of education is to create virtuous citizens. My ideal would achieve those goals. We're still working out what that looks like with actual students in modern day America.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Guys, thanks for the input. I always learn so much from this board.  :thumbup1:

 

Keep the thoughts coming.

[8filltheheart]

In thinking about this some more, in a more holistic view, I want my kids to be able to think independently, distinguish between fact and opinion spun as fact, and have the courage to stand up for what they believe even if their POV is a tiny minority belief.

[Kalmia]

Number one: Encouraging a sense of wonder.

 

Rachel Carson puts it best: "One way to open your eyes is to ask yourself, "What if I had never seen this before? What if I knew I would never see it again?"

 

I also would emphasize the experience of the beauty the world has to offer before getting into the horrors. (So beauty in elementary, early middle, problems/horrors in late middle and high school).

 

Yes, we can turn to Rachel Carson on this one too: “The more clearly we can focus our attention on the wonders and realities of the universe about us, the less taste we shall have for destruction.â€

 

Again Rachel Carson: “Those who dwell, as scientists or laymen, among the beauties and mysteries of the earth, are never alone or weary of life.â€

 

Number Two: Direct experience coupled with nonfiction books written by experts and with literature.

 

So go outside and observe ants then read some of E. O. Wilson's books or articles on ants. Go to Chitradurga Fort in India; read the section in the Mahabharata about the dangerous giant Hidimbasura who, legend says, lived there and caused havoc. Observe spraying in nearby agricultural fields and read Silent Spring. Constantly discuss facts and issues with your children in a challenging way, encouraging them to hone their thoughts and not rely on sloppy thinking or pure emotion, and to look for more information in books written by experts (or by attending lectures by experts or by corresponding with experts or by listening to poets or storytellers).

 

(You would have to specify that long distance and international travel, while great, is not a requirement or risk turning off those for whom such travel is unaffordable. Much can be done with local travel, attending festivals, and use of museums).

Edited November 2, 2016 by Kalmia

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

If we are taking higher education off the table in terms of organizing an education plan around a goal, then the goal I would put in it's place would be competent and ideally employable adult by age 18.  I would focus on:

 

- LOCAL vs international education.  (...says the ex-pat...)  What resources are in my local community?  What employment exists here, what contributions can be made, what skills are needed to thrive here?  Where do I (the student) fit into the local economy?  What social connections can I form now to create a strong social network for my future (NOT a computer based "social media" but a REAL society)?

          - local internships

          - local technology/manufacturing learning opportunities (tours, summer programs, mentorships)

 

- Daily school would look like an old-fashioned liberal arts education with a private tutor named Mom.  Aimed at creating a well-rounded renaissance man in terms of scholarly knowledge, and a jack-of-all-trades in terms of practical skills.  Writing would probably be the top-priority subject starting in middle school.

 

- I would very strongly encourage mentorships with retired trade professionals as well as passionate hobbyists of all sorts.  I would try to align with children's interests, but I could see mechanics, midwives, architects, electricians, doctors, vets...  historians, naturalists, artists, stamp collectors, archers, historical re-enactoin enthusiasts...  Nothing seems to motivate and inspire more than meeting a person who is truly passionate about their subject of interest/expertise.    

  

- Life skills:  cooking from real food being the top priority in this category.  Or perhaps financial sense.  :-)  

 

Grade levels, standardized testing, and homeschool inspections would all be gone.  

[Sahamamama2]

... searching for ways to encourage parents who aren't home educators to think outside the K12 box.

 

[snip]

 

But you can imagine X.

 

[snip]

 

Forget about truancy laws and your work schedule. Forget about grades and college applications. You’re not worrying about those things right now [snip]. If you could educate your child in exactly the way that would best suit both of you, free of all restrictions and fears, what would that look like? 

 

Homeschooling in New Jersey. I never feel as though we do something just to satisfy state requirements. Here, I can imagine X, create X, and implement X without those restrictions, since we don't have them (we have personal restrictions, though; e.g., money, energy, lack of knowledge). There are no hoops, so we don't have to jump. For us, this has been like a crafter being shown a room full of craft supplies, fabric, sewing machines, glue guns, and being told, "Go create something." :D   

 

College is simply a future extension of the same artificial system that you’re trying to think your way out of.

 

:iagree:More hoops, more check boxes. Not that we are ruling it out, but it's good to see it for what it is: (rather arbitrary) Credit Accumulation. 

 

[snip]

 

MY Platonic education would have many of the features of TWTM in it, but wouldn't be identical--because TWTM was written within the context of satisfying your local school board/getting into college. But I also think it's worthwhile to imagine education without either one of those restrictions.

 

SWB

 

It's commendable that you are looking for ways to encourage parents (who are in the box) to think outside the box. Any time we can encourage parents to consider what learning really is, that is a good thing to do. But I honestly think we need to talk about The Box.

 

Preschool, Kindergarten, 1st Grade, 2nd Grade.... what comes next? Third Grade.

General Science, Biology, Chemistry... what comes next? Physics.

Pre-Algebra, Algebra 1, Geometry... what comes next? Algebra 2.

 

We all know the right "answers," because we are products of The Box. The Box is the system that encourages a fairly shallow form of exposure to numerous subjects, mastery of almost nothing, and years of passive assignment acceptance. In that system, the "good students" are those who most willingly, capably, and punctually do what they're told to do by a higher authority.

 

A few years ago, an (asthmatic) young relative of ours had bronchitis and missed three days of school. When he returned, he was told, "You have three days to make up all the missed work, plus keep up with your ongoing assignments." The valiant boy tried. He got pneumonia. He missed four days of school. When he returned, he was told, "You have four days to make up all the missed work, plus keep up with your ongoing assignments." The valiant boy tried. He nearly died (literally) in 11th grade, because The Box could only say what it was programmed to say. The Box had no interest in his very life, no interest in his (actual) learning, no concern for his health, no words of comfort or encouragement for his spirit, and no underlying environment of joy. IMO, at times it is brutal.

 

I realize that this is simply our anecdotal experience with The Box. However, if it feels like a beast intent on chewing up your children, I suppose a person's natural inclination might be to fight it? Or avoid it? My personal answer to getting "outside the box" was to avoid it entirely and start from scratch. Edited to add: But the older my children get, the more concerned I become with the checklists and expectations of the system. Whether or not I "agree" with what those are -- and I don't entirely disagree, I just think blind adherence can be destructive and dehumanizing -- those expectations are with us, and our children are going out into that world someday. So they should be prepared for the world in which they will eventually have to function.

 

I would encourage parents to look as far past the school calendar, school subjects, and school requirements as they possibly can, to the point where those things begin to be blurry and fade from view. Now, what do you see? Instead of years of putting in time and going through the motions, imagine your children learning and thriving. What does that look like? How do they learn? Imagine all of them as healthy as possible, as rested as possible, as content as possible, as joyful as possible. If a parent can imagine that, there is the place to begin. 

 

Next -- take that rested, healthy, content, and joyful child. Add reading. Read aloud, day after day. Add audiobooks. Listen to stories, day after day. Add narrations. Tell stories back, day after day. Add copywork, dictation, and math. That, plus play time and snuggles, is the basic day (for younger children, but also older children who need that foundation solidly laid).

 

Do things together. Cooking, chores, games, puzzles, sports, exercise, pets, family time, travel, personal hygiene, gardening, yard work, crafting, hobbies, anything real (not so much virtual). Practice practical skills. Practice habits of productivity.

 

Encourage parents to limit electronics (their own and their child's). Encourage family time and conversations. Encourage family worship, faith formation, and scripture reading. Talk about character traits and how to develop good habits.

 

What builds general knowledge? Parents can incorporate reading, experiments, conversation, experiences, documentaries, travel, community service, and more into their routines as ways of growing their child's understanding of how the world works.

 

What develops a child's appreciation of beauty? Parents can explore nature, art, music, dance, drama, architecture, and world cultures with their children.

 

Even though we have plenty of breathing room here where we live, I still endeavor to create a rich and full life for our children, educational and otherwise. But I always come back to that basic foundation of health, rest, contentment, and joy. Parents who are already in the box don't need another checklist of things "to do" with their children, so much as encouragement to look beyond the checklists that are already dominating their lives. HTH.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Sahamamama2

[Momto6inIN]

I don't have much of value to add, but I'm very much enjoying the thought exercise process and the responses. I'm finding it is so very difficult for me to think outside the K-12 box! I keep falling back into categorizing my thoughts into "subjects". This board in particular (and TWTM in general) is so great at encouraging me to think about things I've never thought before and at challenging me to explain to myself why I do what I do. Thanks SWB! <3

 

In response to the questions, the only thing I know for sure is that the elementary years (say, through 6th grade) would include as much reading (aloud and on their own both fiction and nonfiction) and unstructured free time as possible while teaching them to listen, read, write, and speak well and do basic math. With strict screen time limits in order to encourage imaginative and active play (indoors and outdoors), and having many educational toys/supplies/materials/books on hand to be ready to use whenever their imaginations strike.

 

After 6th grade, I'm honestly not sure what I'd want it to look like without all the hoops we need to jump through. I know I'd want to prepare my kids for adult life, which obviously includes making money and supporting themselves but also more vaguely defined qualities that I will need to take quite a bit more time to think about.

[Bluegoat]

I don't have a question to add, but I'm not sure about the money question.  I think it is meant to be open-ended but I'm not feeling a direction to go in.  Maybe it just doesn't much apply to my vision?

 

My vision of education is maybe different thansome homeschoolers in that it does ideally have a group of kids, but a fairly small group. I'd tend to want kids to start schooling this way in the 6-7 year range. Even in high school I tend to think of 10 or at most 15 kids, and under 10 kids for elementary school.  But I think a group of kids meeting regularly to work with people from the community and a teacher, maybe having lunch together with real food and dishes.  TI picture this happening in their own neighbourhood within walking distance of home for at least the elementary years, though there would be outings.  I see elementary as a sort of extension of the immediate family, really, and very much integrated into the larger community.

 

I tend to picture a good, solid, basic education being finished by about grade 9.  So the ability to read, write, and handle math well, lots of exposure to really good literature, exposure to science as well as lots of hands on work - including serious gardening.  I also think hands on science is especially important for kids through middle school - something like a fairly robust nature study, but including all kinds of disciplines within the sciences.  I'd put off what I'd call university approaches until high school, and even then for some kids it would be very practical.  I do see education in the epistemology of science as basic for everyone, probably in middle school.

 

I think it's really important for all citizens to have some real knowledge of history and political systems to function as voters and community members.

 

Exposure to and some skill in the arts and crafts, with the opportunity to gain some real proficiency in some select ones - maybe music, or mechanical skills, say.  And language study that is actually effective.  I'd tend to expect two second languages for most kids, with other options for those so inclined.  

 

After grade 9, I'd like to see differentiated programs - kids still having classes but also the opportunity to begin vocational training, depending on future plans.  So probably there would be trade schools, maybe something like the old nursing schools, colleges for university bound students, and so on.

 

I don't necessarily see travel as a necessity here.  It can be nice, and I might like to make it available particularly in relation to language learning, maybe with some exchange option, (though I have a hard time discounting the cost of these kinds of things.)  And I think something like a work/travel experience for high school age kids could be very useful - something like an internship.  But really, I think it's possible to fall into the same kind of thinking that says that more books, even rushed through, are better than fewer, read more deeply, with relation to people and place..  I don't really think that travel is as important as, say, knowing how government works in a detailed way, or spending time developing deep relationships with place (which can happen at home as easily as anywhere.) 

 

ETA - oh, and I would tend to be very loose about grade designations - I'm picturing my elementary aged schools as mixed grades, maybe even one or two room type schools - so, maybe a school of up to 50 kids at most for that age.  Older kids could be mixed somewhat too by interest and ability.  As far as year round learning, I think that is so dependent on local situation, a lot of things could potentially work.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Critterfixer]

One thing I see missing from the list is a realistic assessment of what kind of time and energy the parent means to devote to the education of the child/children. To me, figuring the ideal also involves figuring out what the ideal looks like for the parent. I know that I'm a much happier teacher when I have the time in my day to treat my own passions and goals for my continuing education with the same kind of care I put toward the planning of the day for my children. When I do that, I come to the table energized and ready to share my enthusiasm for the material. I can have the best ideal day for the boys, but if I don't take care to be well rested, prepared, and excited about at least one thing during the day, that's going to come across the table and get into that ideal day like a fly in a spider's web. I would love to see the ideal education reflect what ideal looks like for the parent as well as the student. I just feel like the ideal learning place "X" has that parent factor that often gets overlooked when planning an education experience.

[Junie]

I am primarily an unschooler concerning the "extras".  Reading, grammar, and math are required skills.  I guess that writing is as well, although I don't really teach it at the elementary age.  My dc have primarily learned to write on their own.  Additional writing instruction is given in high school to do some fine tuning.  We also require Bible instruction, as Scripture lessons are important in our family.

 

I try to unschool high school, but the reality is that certain topics are expected in our society.  And so, government and biology are sometimes assigned against their will.  I think that it is good to have a broad, shallow knowledge of certain subjects, even if the student isn't really interested in them.  We don't really spend a lot of time on these classes.  We do just good enough to check the box.

 

However, for subjects they love, they go much deeper than a standard education would allow.  Because they are not spending large quantities of time on subjects that don't interest them, they are able to use that time to go deeper and deeper in areas that interest them.  And this can be catered to individual students.  Because of their interest, they can be mostly self-taught.

 

I can not give my children what I would consider an ideal education with unlimited field trips and all the books that they would like to own.  The reality is that I chose to give my children siblings -- thus the resources are divided.  The benefit, though, is (hopefully) life-long friends.  Definitely worth the sacrifice.

 

 

[Elizabeth 2]

Are here any cultures and societies, ancient or modern, real or fictional, (since we are thinking outside the box) that have the educational system or aspect of that system which rings true and changes how one looks at education? How can that be worked into the educational journey of the family and child?

[RootAnn]

Does anyone remember the thread about an outside the box year for a kid? I can't find it right now or I would link to it. [2016-2017 Out-of-the-Box Thread] That thread is what I thought of when I read the OP.

It would look so very different for each kid. For example, my eldest would do math of all kinds (except perhaps traditional geometry), study history through music, read for hours, and learn at least eight languages. The only writing she would do would be in those foreign languages (because she hates writing but strangely doesn't mind it if she's doing it in Spanish). There might not be any science in her education except as part of her math studies.

My next kid would spend her afternoons drawing while listening to audio books. Each morning, she would either be working on writing a new book or editing an existing one. All her spelling and grammar learning would be through that editing. Her science would revolve around animals and nature through her sketch work or audio books. Her knowledge of history would be through audio books and research for her children's books. She would learn no (more) math if she could get away with it.

See how very different these educations look? Child #4 would be building, exploring, and visiting as his interests led him. Lots of animals and robotics and science- learning the math as needed on the way. Everything would be done for the purpose if his interests, so it would be worthwhile to him and done well because he wants to know those things. We would be in the car a lot, talking to people in the fields of interest with hands on animal adventures and working in the labs where Mars rovers are being built or monitored.

Edited November 2, 2016 by RootAnn

[MistyMountain]

My ideal would involve some learning away from home but it could be a mix. It would have really good curriculum. For math it would really work on getting kids to visualize math and calculate things mentally and the reading would be very multi sensory. It would meet kids where they are at and have options tailored for particular types of kids but not by learning styles just by testing where they are but not with high stakes testing and then targeting the strengths and weaknesses. For example doing something like LiPs for kids with that weakness. Kids will move levels all the time instead of being pigeon holed for needing help at any given time. If a kid needed higher level reading but extra help in writing or spelling they can get that. Just meet kids were they are at no matter where they fall on the spectrum and expect that things can change.

 

It would include the basics like reading, writing, math, science, history which includes world history but also allow kids to follow their interests or passions. I would love a way to hook kids up with mentors.

 

It would include active outdoor time and some unstructured time.

[madteaparty]

nm

Edited November 2, 2016 by madteaparty

[Farrar]

Ooh. Interesting.

 

My first thoughts in terms of questions were things along the lines of...

 

How much is child led (or child influenced by the parent/teacher/societal assessment of the child's individual needs) vs. how much is top down or predecided? In other words, how much is education tailored to the child? That interplay interests me a lot.

 

Also (and someone else mentioned something along these lines)... what values take precedence in this education? As in, happiness or enjoyment or independence or academic excellence? And do the values change depending on the child's needs or age? I guess I'm trying to say... what's the primary end goal? Is it self-sufficiency, happiness, something else? Detaching that from "getting into college" or "getting a job" is - to me - one of the hardest things about this thought experiment for people. When I've talked to people about values and education, they literally cannot get beyond that much of time.

 

Hmm... thinking about the answers is too big... maybe I'll say more...

Edited November 2, 2016 by Farrar

[8filltheheart]

nm

You shouldn't have deleted your post. I didn't understand the question, either. I feel like for the real world reality that we live in, I do give my kids the best childhood, life preparation, academic education possible. My answer reflects that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I like how I educate my kids.  What I don't like in the current box is all the stress of whether we measure up and what number we score on what test at what time. 

[wendyroo]

I have to say, even as a parent who has given considerable thought to educational theory and who read TWTM a decade before my first child was even born, this thought experiment has been every difficult and overwhelming.

 

My main goal for my children is to be functional, well-rounded adults who find fulfilling niches in their families and communities, but I have accepted that the path they take to get there, or not get there as the case may be, is largely out of my control.  I cannot possibly imagine an ideal education, because my parenting and educating are constantly evolving to better meet and support the child's current interests and goals and limitations.

 

Take something as simple as "X has to equip your child to read, write, and understand maths."  Great in theory, but in reality, there will always be some children who can't, or choose not to, be part of the great conversation.  There will be some children who will never truly understand math, some who will be brilliant artists who struggle to read a newspaper, some who will devour academics and be forever searching for the next challenge and some who will have such a drive for independence that they simply rebel against everything you try to teach them.

 

And, of course, most children will be a little bit of a million things, and will change day to day and year to year.  Today, my oldest's ideal education would not include any travel because his severe anxiety makes that a torturous experience.  But tomorrow, and every day for the next 11 years, I will reassess.

 

I guess in the end, I can't imagine my child's ideal education, because 1) I acknowledge that most paths will lead to successful outcomes...maybe not the one I envisioned for the child, but perhaps more worthwhile for being the one they envisioned, 2) I suspect that the prime determiner of a child's education will be the child's own personality and free will and not my plans or choices and 3) I accept that my child's ideal anything is an unfathomable moving target, and all I can really do, every time we come to a fork in the road, is to use every ounce of instinct and love and experience I have to act in what, I hope, is their best interest.

 

Sorry, I don't think that answered your question.

Wendy

[8filltheheart]

I guess I'm trying to say... what's the primary end goal? Is it self-sufficiency, happiness, something else? Detaching that from "getting into college" or "getting a job" is - to me - one of the hardest things about this thought experiment for people. When I've talked to people about values and education, they literally cannot get beyond that much of time....

I guess where I have a hard time grasping the thought experiment is that it boils down to what is the purpose of life? Way too many variable answers for any more agreement about that than for agreement on the purpose of education. Education serves a purpose. The variable then becomes what is that purpose.

[Farrar]

I guess where I have a hard time grasping the thought experiment is that it boils down to what is the purpose of life? Way too many variable answers for any more agreement about that than for agreement on the purpose of education. Education serves a purpose. The variable then becomes what is that purpose.

 

Maybe what I mean is how does education dovetail with the purpose of life?

 

I'm not totally sure why the inevitable lack of agreement is a reason not to imagine and pick apart and discuss.

[8filltheheart]

Maybe what I mean is how does education dovetail with the purpose of life?

 

I'm not totally sure why the inevitable lack of agreement is a reason not to imagine and pick apart and discuss.

I never stated any reason to not imagine, pick apart, or discuss???

[Farrar]

I never stated any reason to not imagine, pick apart, or discuss???

 

Okay. Sorry. I think I thought your statement about not grasping the question was and there being too many variables meant you didn't think a meaningful discussion could really be had.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Okay. Sorry. I think I thought your statement about not grasping the question was and there being too many variables meant you didn't think a meaningful discussion could really be had.

 

Some of us are having a meaningful discussion. . .

 

[Farrar]

Some of us are having a meaningful discussion. . .

 

 

Which I've been trying to participate in?

 

I'm sorry. Have I done something wrong? I really thought 8 was trying to say she thought the questions were too open. I'm sorry I misinterpreted. I swear I'm not being snarky if it's somehow being read that way.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Um, guys, can you just react to the thought experiment? Really enjoying your feedback. No need for any feathers to ruffle. It's the kind of thing that will work for some people but not others, and hearing how/if/whether you find it helpful is tremendously useful to me.

 

swb

 

[Roadrunner]

I am not as imaginative, but if nothing was a limit, I would have hired French and Germain nannies when my kids were born and alternate them each day, so by the time my kids were Kindergarten age, they would speak at least three languages. My grandmother grew up like that and by the time she was 6, she spoke five languages with native ability. I would say that in elementary age I would pursue to teach my kids strong arithmetic skills and focus on further developing language skills by reading and writing. History, science... All of that would basically involve just reading books, no curriculum. I think reading real literature and talking about it along with math and foreign language would suffice. I would do that while traveling extensively abroad.

For high school, I would ship my kids to Phillip Exerer, where education model is based on round table discussions. So I guess in middle school I would hire tutors for each subject and cover everything I need to prepare them for success in high school.

Boring, but I could absolutely be happy with that model.

I guess fluency in several languages, musical instrument, strong writing skills, and extensive coverage of literature would be my focus overall. Sadly for this liberal arts girl, my kid is STEM focused, so lots of math and bit less on languages.

[Rosie_0801]

Susan, the Beach High School guy might be a good person to talk to about this.

 

 

 

If ideal could happen in my house, there'd be a lot more travel and more apprenticeship style, hands on learning. Nice as "self esteem building" programs might be, I think self esteem mostly comes from feeling competent and useful for something. I can teach my girl to cook, but she'd be better off if I could teach her to sew and build. Or if her father would train her in his profession, which is a white collar trade she is quite capable of learning.

 

Translation work is rather important here. With maths, I have her (and my tutored student) translate problems from one style into another. From picture, to words, or standard algorithms or back again. I plan to teach her shorthand, so she can keep writing when her thinking eventually surpasses her ability to write by hand (dysgraphia.) Then she can translate that back into standard English as she types it up. 

 

I'm also beginning to think business skills are important for everyone. Too many ideas go nowhere because people don't know how to negotiate the paperwork.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by cathey

[Farrar]

I think I get hung up imagining the ideal as implemented in society vs. the ideal as implemented in a homeschool context. When I think about the ideal for *us* at home, I feel like - while obviously we won't ever meet some sense of perfection - we've come close to doing the best we could. I'm happy with how we've greatly used the museums and taken umpteen field trips, how we've used travel as much as money afforded, how we've tried to be engaged in the world. I'm happy with how I was more top down at the start of their education and have shifted to letting them choose and plan as they've gotten older. There are things I would totally do differently, but the substance of having free time, being outside, spending a lot of time in museums and classes, me trying to instill basic skills - I feel like that would be the same even if I shifted some things about our focus or used different specific programs.

 

What's funny is that when I think about the idea for society, I feel like I'm much more focused in my head on how institutions that aren't schools could support learning and how learning could become more flexible while still giving kids the routines and structure they need. Those aren't things that I even need to think about for homeschooling - they're natural at home. I mean, I think kids need more free time and time outside, but it's not like structures and methods have to be in place to make that happen at home. I can just send the kids outside. If kids as a whole are going to get more unstructured time and more outdoor time, there have to be ways to make it happen. Forces that push parents to support it or schools to oversee it or something. Maybe that's getting stuck in the K12 box though.

[Rosie_0801]

What's funny is that when I think about the idea for society, I feel like I'm much more focused in my head on how institutions that aren't schools could support learning and how learning could become more flexible while still giving kids the routines and structure they need.

 

I'd like some of that for adults too, thanks. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Which I've been trying to participate in?

 

I'm sorry. Have I done something wrong? I really thought 8 was trying to say she thought the questions were too open. I'm sorry I misinterpreted. I swear I'm not being snarky if it's somehow being read that way.

 

I was supporting you.  I'm sorry that didn't come across that way.  I was trying for  humor and it failed. 

[Ausmumof3]

Hmm for me I think life skills first. Before you learn anything hugely academic you learn how to prepare a few basic meals, how to grow food and how to make some simple clothes. I feel like it's easier to get a bigger picture of history when you have an understanding of this stuff, because so much of history is driven by competition for the resources to do them.

 

Basic reading instruction can start when kids seem interested and develop organically from a lot of time in the family being read to. For so much of the other stuff I feel like it would be awesome if they could learn the stuff they were interested in from safe adults who are passionate about the subjects. I love books but I feel like they are not really a substitute for a really involved teacher. Not someone who has trained to be a teacher specifically but adults who are experts in their field and are willing to invest time in kids to help them get there. I do see some of this in the homeschool community but not always enough.

 

I also feel like it involves a lot of time outdoors though I'm not totally sure in what context. Partly hiking and exploring for nature study and science but partly productive work as well?

 

I think really education is a culture passed on through families more than something disciplined or instilled through schools. But I think the way society runs would have to be completely restructured to actually make that work in any meaningful way. Everything is very segregated now which makes it hard for real life learning opportunities to occur. Even field trips often have very canned educational outcomes attached.

 

After a morning of practical life focus and outside play I'd see the afternoon as more dedicated to acquiring paper based real life skills. Maths to deal with finances and weather reports, dates and calendars. Basically applied maths. English to achieve good communication conventions oral and written. And then time to dedicate to a specific area of higher knowledge passion or interest - art, more pure math, science, music, dance, literature, drama. No necessity for everyone to do all of them but everyone to have something.

 

Then the evenings would be for reading and general knowledge activities - history, science etc. as the kids get older they stay up later and are able to pursue these areas in more depth.

 

Foreign language - I'm not totally sure about this. I feel like what we do in primary school is a box checking exercise. I don't know that I'd require foreign language but I'd want to take advantage of opportunities if actual native speakers were around to teach it. If we did do it Id love to see it done on an intensive way as a lead up to a trip to the country where the language is spoken rather than in a decontextualised kind of way it is most often done.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I felt like we had a lot of the ideal for elementary school.  Then in middle school it changed for ds.  For dd, I kept our "ideal" (which obviously wasn't perfect but was pretty darn close) for middle school as well.  But high school brings the specter of college and suddenly I feel like we have to work inside that box.  I know that some people don't, but I've seen some "failures" when outside the box high school has simply meant doing no academics at all. 

 

My ideal for high school would be having access to experts - people who didn't just know their subject academically, but who knew how to teach it and live it extemporaneously.  The kind of person who could tell rousing stories of history around the fireplace with no need to consult a text.  And the kind of person who could help someone set up a physics project and guide them Socratically without a set lab from a book.  Somehow I had this idea that I would study all through elementary school and middle school and by high school would be that expert but that didn't happen! 

[lanalouwho]

If you could educate your child in exactly the way that would best suit both of you, free of all restrictions and fears, what would that look like?

 

 

What skills will this education develop?

Life skills: basic housekeeping, cook simple meals, an understanding of personal finance and how to build a workable budget, basic survival skills (how to build a fire, catch and clean a fish, edible plants, etc), time management, and public speaking.

Academic skills: ability to think critically, ability to write/speak effectively, basic (and some not-so-basic) math skills and the ability to apply them to general situations.

 

What qualities?

Confidence and integrity. Bravery. Compassion. Service.

 

Are there teachers, courses, external structures? Or does the child pursue his own learning?

Umm...yes? Primarily mentors or guides and peers in lieu of teachers. I'm having difficulty describing what I envision for courses and structure. The student would be presented with a problem to solve, and would be an active participant in figuring out how to solve the problem and which resources to use.

 

Does this education involve travel?

Yes, but not too extensive. Maybe one extended or intensive trip per year, smaller day trips as opportunities and interests present themselves.

 

Is it primarily active or book centered? Projects or written assignments?

All? My ideal would be book-centered. My students would probably prefer active.

 

What part does earning money play/not play in this scenario?

...

Aside from teaching personal finance and budgeting, I don't know. My brain hurts.

 

In what places does learning happen? Home, outdoors, institutions?

Learning is actively pursued at home, libraries, museums, outdoors. Wherever the subject matter takes us.

 

Does this education involve any apprenticeships or internships?

Absolutely. Once a student is developing strong interests, those should be nurtured in real life situations.

 

How does evaluation happen? Does the student take tests, write essays, perform a hands-on demonstration?

In the early years, evaluation should be through discussion and observation. Discussion and debate should play a large part throughout the course of education. Hands-on demonstrations are appropriate for certain subjects and interests, while written work would be expected across the curriculum.

 

What does the day look like? When does the child get up? What occupies the bulk of the day? When does time with family happen?

Natural sleep rhythms should be respected. My children (and I) need more sleep due to illness, allergies, growth spurts, etc. In the younger years, play and exploration should take up the majority of the child's time. Family time should be a priority, ideally dinner and at least one night a week should be spent actively interacting (not TV), but that of course depends on the family schedule.

Early years- 60% free play

20% academics

20% life skills

Middle school- 40% free play

40% academics

20% life skills

High school- 10% free time

50% academics/pursuing interests

20% life skills

 

ETA: That last one only adds up to 80%. I told you my brain hurt.

Edited November 3, 2016 by lanalouwho

[MiMi 4under3]

I'd allow my child to follow a passion (whatever it may be) to the point that he/she became an "expert" in that field, the known go-to person.

 

Of course other subjects would get neglected, but so what? As long as their passion was a relatively useful one, they'd always be employed, and they would always love their work.

[TKDmom]

This has actually been on my mind over the past couple weeks, after a family road trip. We were driving along the Blue Ridge Parkway, and  we decided to stop at an alpaca farm that was just off the road. We spent some time petting alpacas, feeding them hay, and chatting with the owner. When she found out I homeschooled, she told me about her son, who had been homeschooled and was currently doing an apprenticeship. Just before we left, she told me the farm was up for sale. I spent most of the drive home plotting how dh could quit his job and buy that farm.  :drool:

 

The point is, it got me thinking what it would be like to disengage from the life I'm used to and have the chance to educate my children without the normal constraints that I put on myself. Here are my random thoughts:

 

I want my kids to have lots of time outdoors, playing and engaging in their natural environment. I have visions of kids being able to go out and play by the creek for a few hours a day, just observing, playing, and doing nothing in particular.

 

Lessons would be short, and focused on core subjects--math and lots of varied reading. I still want someone else to teach them to write. But honestly, I would love to be able to let my writing-phobic kid avoid writing. Maybe that's just me being lazy or giving in to my own writing phobia. Our lessons would probably be in the late morning or early afternoon when we tend to be less active. I would feel free to ignore grade levels and where they are "supposed" to be, and focus on improving their academic skills where they are, teaching them to read for deeper meaning, think logically, solve problems, and see connections in the world around them. 

 

Kids would have lots of opportunities to learn interesting skills.  DD15 would spend part of her days playing ukulele, singing, weaving, and drawing. She'd probably learn a couple languages, and study abroad, and she might even have the opportunity to quit math after algebra 1. DS13 would spend a lot of time outside, building stuff, climbing trees, and talking to animals. He'd have a supply of building materials to create with--things for building sheds and treehouses, but also for building robots and computers. The younger kids would have to do explore a variety of activities and discover what they love.

 

I envision community. I want my dh home with the family, as my partner, teaching the kids how to live life happily and productively. I want to surround myself with people who love what they do. I have some good friends who manage to feed their family off what they can grow on a quarter acre, as well as hunting. They'd be indispensable on my farm. Plus their kids and grandkids are some of my kids best friends. We need multi-generations and a community that's just large enough that people can do what they love, help one another out, and teach each other.

 

 

[birchbark]

Another question could be: "What would have happened in your dream school growing up?" I was entranced when I visited a Waldorf school once, and thought how much I would have loved it as a child, as opposed to the cold institution I attended.

 

Like others here, I am a big believer in younger children having plenty of free time, especially out in nature. Except for learning to read, I wish compulsory formal schooling began at 8 or 10. Those younger years could be filled with stories, crafts, music, maybe foreign language if the opportunity is there.

 

I would love a school that focused on academics for the morning; mainly the 3R's. I would picture it structured and with instructors. I am learning some kids do well at home; others, (especially postpubescent boys!) do better with outside instructors. 

 

Then the afternoons could be for active, hands-on learning, particularly along the students' interests and giftings: life skills, music, arts and crafts, shop, computers, nature study and wildcraft, money management, drama, culinary arts, trade skills, athletics, community service, science projects, etc, etc. In my dreams there would be a big buffet to choose from! As a busy homeschool mom on a budget, I can only offer a small sampling.

 

I don't think travel is important until the late teens. I like the idea of foreign languages, but unless students have opportunities to use them, the languages tend not to stick, and it seems a waste of time.

 

I see the K-12 years as mainly equipping kiddos for real learning, which happens in adulthood. I think we tend to foist upon our children the education we would want now for ourselves. But children and teens are in such a different place developmentally. It seems like if we can teach them reading (of great books of course!), writing, and math, as well as practical skills, they will be set for wherever life will take them.

 

 

 

 

[quark]

Some haphazard thoughts...

 

X to me is what makes a child happy. Sparkly eye, quivering with excitement kind of happy. I've seen my son that happy. Could he be more happy? Of course! But I feel like we've gotten pretty close to that happy and it happened because thanks to some wonderful local veteran moms and boardies here, I learned to leave some of my own traditional schooling hang ups and venture into more risky territory. I felt compelled to each time my son became unhappy. When I imagine X, I imagine happy. And while I have always wished he would love a WTM education, he hasn't so his happy doesn't look very WTM (but it is somewhat WTM in nature in the kinds of books he enjoys reading).

 

I've found that the people who are willing to think outside the K12 box are usually unschoolers. The Beach High School that Rosie refers to is I believe a virtual umbrella run by Wes Beach in California. If you read his books, he relates how students mostly schooled themselves. His school helps provide their transcript when they are finally ready to apply to colleges. They picked up reading, writing and math along the way because they wanted to. Because it was meaningful to them. Unschooling is such a nebulous term and I hesitate to use it even for our homeschool but that's mostly because many people equate unschooling with unparenting when it is not that. I often find it funny (risking tomatoes here) when people say oh if I unschool my kid will just play Minecraft everyday. Well duh, why make MInecraft available if you think that will be a problem? I understand that some kids are highly oppositional and I am not an expert on that. In many homes though, some rules from the beginning can help prevent issues like unhealthy distractions. I have a friend who also turned my thinking about these games completely around. For her son, Minecraft was his source of intense joy and when she learned to support it, wonderful things happened in their family. He still learned to read, write and do some pretty cool math. Some kids learn to do that via Minecraft and they have the self control to make it work out well.

 

When I used homeschool curriculum I always had this suspicion that I was still following some kind of K12 box. It ate at me so much (possibly because my son was never happy with any curriculum used as written) and when I stopped using curriculum was when I finally found release and joy in our homeschooling. Any curriculum is to me therefore, a box and my replies below are based on this definition of box. I don't define outsourced classes as curriculum though because these classes were chosen with his complete buy-in, many strayed away from a rigid path and most of the successful ones we have used were very well done.

 

I'll describe one. My son's math tutor customized his content and delivery for his students. He used an online whiteboard and a very Socratic style of teaching with lots of discussion and hypothetical questions that the students then had to prove. He added lots of additional material outside the textbook. There was lots of critical thinking, some lighthearted moments and lots of respect for the learner and lots of concern on keeping the class meaningful. The result: intense joy of learning. But it did require 1) a teacher who knows his material well 2) a teacher who respects children and how they learn 3) a teacher who was willing to challenge the "box" and say no, children don't need to wait till university to learn abstract algebra or cryptology or linear algebra 4) students who wanted to learn, 5) students who had relatively good self control and maturity to not disrupt the class for others there, and 6) parents who stayed out of the way (except to pay the fees).

 

X to me is also about flow (and again linked to happiness). You know you are in a state of flow when it totally consumes and envelopes you. When you are in flow, nothing else matters. You might not even eat or get up to use the bathroom. Unfortunately, life happens and you are often disrupted but it's something you can go back to easily. What causes flow will be different for everyone. Flow can lead to some superpower skills. In the perfect world, kids will be allowed to navigate adult level flow but in safe and age-appropriate surroundings:

 

For example,

Dancers: excellent flexibility, health, good ear for music and rhythm, some understanding of physics, biology, and eventually because it becomes meaningful they might learn managerial/ leadership skills when they set up a dance project/ performance or eventually, a school.

Writers: language, wordplay, computer skills, research skills (and therefore, health/ history/ geography/ math/ whatever is related to their content), time management, learning how to take risks, approaching publishers/ marketing themselves, developing awesome imagination. Yes, travel might be necessary for research.

Engineers: an understanding of materials, sciences related to their area of engineering, math, programming, how to write proposals, negotiation.

Travel happens when people need it/ can afford it. But more than travel I think what people need is cultural sensitivity and a willingness to be open minded enough to learn about other communities/ cultures/ traditions/ countries. What's the point of traveling if you are only going to bring a Western-centric (or for that matter an Eastern-centric) view with you?

 

The skills I have today were only partially learned in school. It was all the things I did at home in my free time/ flow time that gave me confidence to apply them in college/ at work.

 

Evaluation:

Since we are talking about the perfect world here, evaluation happens when the child is satisfied with his level of achievement (and then because it is a perfect world, child moves on to something even more challenging). I find it so funny that colleges ask for the SAT even if a student has been taking college level classes for a few years. I mean, really? A child who builds Lego cars for example will know when he is satisfied. Anyone in a state of flow pushes themselves to be the best they can because they are doing what consumes them and feels so wonderful to them. So naturally, they push themselves to be the best they can.

 

Structured/ unstructured time:

I'll give you an example. Today, I finished submitting my son's CSS Profile. I pushed myself to do this over the last 2 days and was so motivated that I refused to take any breaks other than the usual meal times/ sleep times/ driving times. Once I finished, I took about an hour and a half of break time. After that, I was just too bored and decided to do something else. My son asked why I wasn't taking a break any more and I had to explain to him that taking the break was making me cranky and becoming counter productive. I was itching to get back to doing what I liked. My son was busy too and why this worked out. If he had been free and needed my attention, I would have done that instead. I think time needs to be natural for everyone (and since we are having a thought experiment, I hope that works as an answer lol). I work best at night. I just cannot wake up at 5am and sleep at 8pm for example. My best work is done usually past 10pm till the wee hours of the morning. It's what makes me happiest. My son is similar but needs more sleep than I do so on most nights he sleeps earlier than I do.

 

One thing I might do is that outside of flow time, I would make several things available to the child to pick up if he/she so wishes, e.g. music, math, art, languages, programming, creating games/ puzzles, writing stories/ poems, etc. I'd love to create/ strew stations/ resources for these pursuits and then stay well out of the way except to answer questions and guide the student when possible towards finding the answer him/herself.

 

I am answering all of this in the spirit of brainstorming. Hope I haven't stepped on any toes.

[TABmom]

I used to think about this a lot. I was a teacher in my before kids life!

 

Here's some ideas I had. This is actually in the context of a "school". When I used to think about this, I didn't have kids. Now, I realize that my ability to provide an ideal education is limited more than I realized it would be by time, etc.

 

I imagine a (elementary) school where kids enroll in individual classes instead of grades. Math is a series of modules, where you can move as quickly or as slowly as you need to. There's teachers working with small groups on specific skills- as soon as you demonstrate mastery, you move up. There would also be a "homeroom" group where one teacher stays with a group of kids for an extended period of time. Maybe with mixed age groups. This group would do extra fun stuff, like holiday parties but would also work on life skills together, discuss current events, stuff like that. Reading would be phonics based and also module like, although that is harder to do with reading than math. After fluency is achieved, kids could sign up for different classes that would read/discuss books, poetry, non-fiction. But it would be interest based, like for instance one class would be sports stories another could be fantasy. These classes would not be a year long- more like 6 weeks- and the kids pick what they want, so there is some buy-in from them.

 

I have to go get my kids. I'all add more later.

 

Science/social studies classes would be topic based and unit-study like. For example, you could sign up for Rainforests or Human Body or Civil War or Ancient Egypt. The classes would incorporate lots of projects both individual and as a group- that demonstrate that learning did occur. No grades for these classes. (Or any classes really- for math and reading you just keep working until you master it and then move to the next module.)These would be unit-study style, so lots of subject areas are touched on.

 

Music/Art- also topic based- with kids able to choose between appreciation-type classes or skill based.

 

PE- lots of this! But again, lots of choice- team sports, individual sports, general fitness- like kids could take baseball, tennis, martial arts, a general fun games class.

 

I imagine well stocked art/music studios/gyms and a set block of time for kids to try things out.

 

In preschool-1st grade ages, I imagine lots of outdoor exploration time and also lots of center-type things like children's museums have.

 

Possibly with a 4 day week with the 5th day dedicated to field trips.

 

All kids are assigned a teacher that they touch base with (same has "homeroom" teacher?) as the kids get older, they learn to set goals and plans for meeting the goals and their teacher meets with them once/week or to see how they are progressing and help them with their goals.

 

As the kids enter middle school, the classes may get less topic, unit-study style and more like regular classes- but with an emphasis on study skills and a "how to learn" and still involve choice on the kids part. I think behavior and retention is so much better when kids have some choice about things.

 

The school would also run some businesses inside the school, that the kids would have to run. A small store selling school supplies, a concession stand place where kids can buy extra snacks at lunch/after school. Something that would teach some business and customer service type skills.

 

Definitely ongoing projects like gardens for the kids to run.

 

I also imagine lots of after school clubs/sports/projects.

 

I have to go again. My thoughts have just been kind of a brainstorm- no organization to them. But it's a fun topic to think about.

Edited November 3, 2016 by TABmom

[luuknam]

I agree- I'm framing this thinking about my oldest. She already is asking to go to Greece and Italy to study more and she's only 14. I would love to be able to give her time to travel, read, and explore more with these interests now while she has the opportunity. 

 

I guess for that reason I wish gap years were something we could do before the age of 18.

 

You can. For example:

 

https://www.afsusa.org/study-abroad/

 

There are other programs that do have high school students do exchange years as well.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

You shouldn't have deleted your post. I didn't understand the question, either. I feel like for the real world reality that we live in, I do give my kids the best childhood, life preparation, academic education possible. My answer reflects that.

 

My thoughts are along the same lines. 

 

 It's the kind of thing that will work for some people but not others, and hearing how/if/whether you find it helpful is tremendously useful to me.

 

swb

 

I'm not sure I find it helpful. Maybe I'm caught up in high school hysteria or something, but reality is hard to shake right now. I did spend hours and hours thinking about the possibilities during the younger years, but the path seems so much more narrow in the high school years...  (Narrow perhaps because there is a destination in mind. I imagine if there was absolutely no destination I would feel differently.)  

 

It seems all thought going into imaginings about a dream world is time taken away from thinking about the best possible way to make the best reality possible. 

[Clemsondana]

I think that thinking about this helps me to see one of the tensions in education.  My goal is for my kids to be prepared to pursue their interests, whatever they have an aptitude for, when they reach adulthood.  If they want to pursue an advanced degree, that's great.  If they want to apprentice and learn a trade, that's good, too.  I want for them to have been exposed to enough that they can make a decision about what they want to do, and I want for them to be fearless enough to pursue it, knowing that they can change their mind and go a different direction in the future. 

 

What makes this difficult is that, in order for them to know what they are interested in, I want to expose them to lots of different things, and learning about something that doesn't immediately strike you as interesting isn't always fun.  I think that it's part of what the 'boxes' were intended to do - expose students to a smattering of things so that they could do more of what they were interested in...but sometimes, there's just some not-fun that you need to learn before you get to the 'cool stuff'.  I see this with my classes that I teach.  The first class is a traditional style - there are labs and projects, but there is also lecture, homework, and tests over things that students may not like.  The next course, though, is a seminar-style discussion with weekly short papers on whatever topics they found most interesting during class.  We cover all sorts of topics, some of my choosing, some from the students.  The goal is to expose them to new ideas.  One student commented 'This is so fun  - why don't you do Bio I that way?' and I asked if he would have learned enough in the first class to appreciate the second class if there had been a different format, and he responded 'Probably not'. 

 

For me, there is often tension between letting my kids pursue their own interests and making sure that they are prepared enough to move forward into whatever area they choose...and making sure that they've been exposed to enough to know that the topics that they are ultimately interested in even exist. 

[8filltheheart]

My thoughts are along the same lines.

 

 

I'm not sure I find it helpful. Maybe I'm caught up in high school hysteria or something, but reality is hard to shake right now. I did spend hours and hours thinking about the possibilities during the younger years, but the path seems so much more narrow in the high school years... (Narrow perhaps because there is a destination in mind. I imagine if there was absolutely no destination I would feel differently.)

 

It seems all thought going into imaginings about a dream world is time taken away from thinking about the best possible way to make the best reality possible.

My current high school sr is as far out of the box as I am comfortable going. She is an incredibly strong student who is 100% self-motivated. She has goals she wants to achieve and focuses on them until she masters them. We designed her home education specifically around her vision of what she wanted it to be. She is my first one to not take any DE courses or AP tests bc she wanted complete freedom to study at a pace and depth she wanted. Yet, she is as advanced in her own areas of interests as her brother who graduated from high school with 300 level college credits.

 

She made the decision to create this path knowing that it might close some doors for her. It was her choice to make. Her high school yrs have been some of the most wonderful yrs in my 20+ yrs of homeschooling. She has profound insights when reading literature. She is a phenomenal writer (and in multiple languages.)

 

Her accomplishments are not marked with AP test scores or college grades. But that does not mean they are less than.

 

I have no doubt that she will achieve her goals. It wasn't fun and games that got her here. It was a deep love of learning and knowledge that her goals require her to be educated. She took those and ran with them, intertwining them to create a high school education that is uniquely hers and unique in content.

 

We'll know what colleges think in a few weeks. She has 4 acceptances so far, but she won't hear back from her top choice schools until December for admissions and not until March for competitive scholarships.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

This little thought experiment has apparently edged its way into my psyche. It seems SWB will be haunting my dreams until I think through it....

 

By 4am, I had given in and decided I would try to process through it so I will be able to rest tonight with a mind at peace.

 

In many ways I feel like we've done this thought experiment from the beginning. We've lived it. We had no overwhelming preconceived notion of what schooling should be. There didn't seem to be any compelling reason to use a public or private school, so we didn't. I had never heard of any homeschooling method so we set out with babe in arms in blissful educational naivety.

 

Along the way, we were introduced to various educational paths. Each one was put through the filter that was the child in front of us. Many methods flowed through the filter with only a passing glance. As time passed, only three – Waldorf, Charlotte Mason, and The Well-Trained Mind – had left large swaths of influence in their wake. Rachel Carson and her pleas for wonder had also left their mark.

 

Many hours each day in the open air

Meals out-of-doors

Books, books, books

Quality materials

Seasonal celebrations

Intentional storytelling

Poetry

Imaginative play

An orderly home life

Journeys to explore the natural world

 

Those sum up much of my daughter's early childhood. It could have been lived in many different eras or locations. There were certainly more formal schooling moments (hours), but the above were our guiding lights.

 

By middle school it became clear she needed more. She needed outside influences and more direct instruction from experts, even in subjects she wouldn't necessarily pursue in depth, but that would help her in subjects that she did want to pursue. She was hitting walls in areas that interested her because she lacked the requisite information which would allow her to go further.

 

The middle school years were filled with moving and the search for tutors, mentors, apprenticeships, and peers of varying sorts (intellectual, social, etc).

 

Now we've arrived at the high school years. Over the past few years I've discovered the high school and college boards here and College Confidential. (Mixed blessings...)

 

Now is the time to seriously plan for the future, firmly rooted in modern reality. Life is filled with tutors, teachers, mentors, peers (in all their glorious variations), classes, apprenticeships, work, hobbies that have nothing to do with competition or future academic gain....One of the most important tasks during these years is sorting through the abundance to create a life of her own choosing.

 

I honestly cannot imagine a path any better for our family than the one we've followed.

 

The only thing I can think of that would further enrich the path is the gift of more time. More time to do more of what we're already doing.

 

[quark]

I thought of something else. I'm not sure if it's a question so much as a struggle. 

 

How does one reconcile the long term expectations they have for a child with the actual, real child?

 

[...]

 

Hopefully that makes sense. 

 

I've struggled with this too and my answers are not comfortable ones and definitely not the ones I wish for others. Every time I fall into some kind of blissful status quo, something jarring happens that forces me to reexamine expectations. It could be a mental health event or a big shake up in family dynamics or simply my own panic attacks increasing and then subsiding into a state of acceptance. I used to dread these panic attacks but now I've learned that they are somewhat good for me (while also leading to more weight gain thanks to the tubs of ice cream that magically appear when I am anxious). After the panic spikes and once it starts to die down, I come out of it with a new level of understanding for my, my spouse's and my child's limitations.

 

A very simple, not so serious and maybe even humorous example is how happy I've been lately about his newfound ability to write well and with more stamina followed by a complete crash and panicky self doubt when he makes mistakes like using an "a" instead of an "an" when he writes "an hour from now" (just one example). And then I realize he has submitted that essay without proofreading or if he has proofread it he has completely missed that he used "a" when he should have used "an". This leads to lots of self criticism (why didn't I use a grammar curriculum? Why did I let him get away with it?). You would think a high school aged child should at the very least know that right? But a few weeks later, everything goes back to normal and he uses his indefinite articles the way they should be used.

 

And then a few weeks after that, something really serious happens that makes my whole worrying about articles seem like the tiniest little problem on earth.

 

For me personally, my expectations are high but I myself am not a high achiever (long story/ family issues etc) and I know I have done okay with that despite knowing I could have been in a better position in life (but not necessarily happier) so perhaps that helps center me too.

 

Great question and one that needs wiser words than mine.