Remember predicting the pandemic? What about WWIII?

[lmrich]

I have no idea what to  do to prepare for WW3. Taking care of  some health issues and making dr. appointments now and getting into bettter shape both physically and mentally. 

 

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

But someone in the community needs to have saved the seeds, in order for the community to work together to grow food.  Someone needs the knowledge on how to even do such a thing.  Community is the cornerstone but it’s helpful to have things to contribute to that community and better for everyone if the community isn’t starting from total scratch.   

Yes, that's the main message in Alas, Babylon. Community.

[Shoeless]

45 minutes ago, Eos said:

In my apocalypse visions, my daughter with type 1 diabetes runs out of insulin and dies in a coma.  I never get much farther than that.

How do you even begin to prep for something like that? There's no way.

I'll die very slowly over a period of months without my meds. DH will die a bit faster, probably. 

 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I honestly don't know.

I think if ppl are actually preparing for calamity ( and not the usual), there's a good chance that the significant energy and cash expended would be better spent on action to help avoid the calamity. 

I feel like this thread has worked to address calamities AND the usual (well, hopefully not usual), which is why I said what I said.

My locale cannot provide a warming location for every resident. The more residents that have alternative or multiple source heat (as an example. Just 1.), the fewer we need to warm for a night, a week, 2 weeks. The more communities (HOA-type) that have their own plans for members without heat, the fewer the municipality needs to serve, fewer to county, state, etc.

As opposed to raising taxes to get the municipality off-grid or something to prevent mountain ice storms. 😉 

[Heartstrings]

30 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

How do you even begin to prep for something like that? There's no way.

I'll die very slowly over a period of months without my meds. DH will die a bit faster, probably. 

 

It's morbid, but I've actually thought through some of that.  I'll try to survive to a point, but when it gets too dangerous my plan would be to....not do the surviving part.  I don't want to freeze to death if the power goes out for a week, but I'm not interested in living out Mad Max. 

[Carrie12345]

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It's morbid, but I've actually thought through some of that.  I'll try to survive to a point, but when it gets too dangerous my plan would be to....not do the surviving part.  I don't want to freeze to death if the power goes out for a week, but I'm not interested in living out Mad Max. 

Without my kids, that’s fine. But I have kids at home. It wouldn’t bother me to talk about having my own… let’s say finish line. But I’m not about to go *there*.

[Condessa]

I also have a child that would not survive a catastrophe that involved losing access to medical care.  But most disasters would be unlikely to cause a complete collapse of the medical system.  Prior world wars included medical scarcity in some places for some time, but not an end to medical care.  The reasoning that my child would not survive total societal collapse, therefore I will not prepare against any major emergency just doesn’t seem to me to track logically.

[Grace Hopper]

6 hours ago, Idalou said:

Well, from my reading of Alas, Babylon in junior high I'd store tons of coffee. And from my extensive hours spent playing Oregon Trail I'd also stock up on whiskey and bullets, but forget the chickens, they're not worth it.

Don’t bother with bacon, either, it always gets lost in the river. 

[WildflowerMom]

2 hours ago, Condessa said:

I also have a child that would not survive a catastrophe that involved losing access to medical care.  But most disasters would be unlikely to cause a complete collapse of the medical system.  Prior world wars included medical scarcity in some places for some time, but not an end to medical care.  The reasoning that my child would not survive total societal collapse, therefore I will not prepare against any major emergency just doesn’t seem to me to track logically.

If insulin is a scarcity and you have type one, a few days can easily mean death. 

[Shoeless]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

If I stop being snarky (although I genuinely think weapons are a good idea if one is serious about this!), I think the greatest asset one would have in the event of a societal collapse is the ability to adjust to circumstances. 

Most catastrophes are relatively slow moving. What you want is to be the person who finds allies/leaves before things are dire/otherwise adapts.

People are TERRIBLE at adapting. I saw people going to birthday parties and to work when the pandemic started in NYC, when everything was already abundantly clear even if you weren't following the international news (which I stupidly was not.) You can always get a serious leg up by not just moving forward like an automaton. 

ETA: You see this very well during world wars and other catastrophes, too. People don't evacuate until it's too late. They don't want to leave their lives behind. 

One thing that stunned me during the pandemic was how quickly some people I knew fell apart. Like, 2-3 weeks into lockdown, they were in a mental health crisis. And this was when we were all still under the delusion that this was a temporary blip and life would return to "normal" relatively soon.

I had my own low point where I completely fell apart; I don't remember how long it took to get there. A few months? A year? Time felt really squishy then, so I really don't know. But I know it wasn't only 2 weeks. 

I am not saying any of the above in a snarky, "Clearly, I am better than those weaklings!" kind of way. The last few years have pushed everyone to their breaking point. I wish I could have a do-over for so many interactions where I utterly lost my 💩. And if you're a person that felt like they were on the receiving end of my meltdown, I am very much sorry. 

Seeing people unravel in only a few weeks was very sobering. 

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

If insulin is a scarcity and you have type one, a few days can easily mean death. 

Yes.  I still don't think that makes it senseless to prepare against other eventualities.  

 

[Eos]

12 hours ago, Idalou said:

And from my extensive hours spent playing Oregon Trail

Two words: cholera shots.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Eos

[Happy2BaMom]

10 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

It's morbid, but I've actually thought through some of that.  I'll try to survive to a point, but when it gets too dangerous my plan would be to....not do the surviving part.  I don't want to freeze to death if the power goes out for a week, but I'm not interested in living out Mad Max. 

This is where I am as well.

We have chosen to build a fair amount of resilience at our 'homestead' and I have 4 mos of dried food stored. I'm also really into wilderness skills (I love dropping into nature) and can be fairly self-sufficient for a few days with nothing other than a knife. Great stuff for short-term emergencies, aka 3 mos or less. I'd advise prepping like this for everyone.

You'd think having/knowing all that would make me confident about a potential WWIII and collapse. It doesn't. In fact, it's the exact opposite. There's nothing like *actually* having experience living like it's a full-on Apocalypse to make one realize what an utter delusion that is. Even for people who could magically find enough to eat in the nearly-completely-denuded forests / rivers / ecosystems, you're constantly one infection, illness or accident away from being unable to care for yourself. Other individuals don't/won't have the bandwidth to care for you & ensure food & fuel for themselves. There's not enough dry wood to burn for the needs of non-stop heat / fuel / boiling water, and the biting insects completely take over in warmer months.

No one I've met (or studied) has ever provided anywhere close to their *caloric* needs through gardening, and that's been with relatively stable weather. Seriously, the beans-and-guns thing is just prepper porn, a fantasy held by people whose driving motivation is revenge on a society they hate.

[TechWife]

I don’t think there’s anything those of us in the US can do to truly prepare for war. I think it’s something that, unless you’ve lived it, you can’t imagine it. All the prep in the world will be nothing if your home is destroyed and/or your loved ones die. People loose things in war. People loose each other, either through displacement or death.

Yes, we should all be practical. Realize though, that war is unpredictable. Physical needs are only the starting point. Building a resilient mindset will help, but that, again, is only a starting point because at some point we all reach the end of what we can do to preserve and/or protect those we love.   Grief would play a large role in life. That’s the harder thing to try to comprehend, much less prepare for. 

In Bible study this past week, two verses have been standing out to me. They came to my attention last Saturday, before I knew anything of world events (did y’all know there was a major earthquake in Afghanistan?). I’ll share them here for those who are interested. If you’re not interested, please just ignore them, because a tangential conversation wouldn’t be helpful for anyone. 

…you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. 
                      1 Timothy 4:6

Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 
                       1 Timothy 4:15

Edited October 12, 2023 by TechWife

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Happy2BaMom said:

prepper porn

Yes.

These threads kind of bother me. I'm all for everyone being prepared to be self sufficient during short term emergencies--weather events that confine us to our homes, power outages, supply chain blips, etc. But going beyond that seems sort of tone deaf to me, given what some people around the globe are currently experiencing--things that those of us in first world countries are very unlikely to ever experience.

But I admit that's just my thing and doesn't have to be anyone else's thing. I kind of feel the same way about what I think of as food porn--people who meticulously (and almost obsessively) track their diet and all the macros and micros and things like that. I wonder how often they consider what a privilege that is, to have all that access to various affordable foods that enables them to play around with numbers. I know it's not hurting anyone (and most prepper porn probably isn't, either) but the privilege of being able to sit in my comfy home, in a first world country, and theoretically talk about stuff like that seems somehow wrong to me. Or at least I feel like we should all recognize the privilege we have.

Again (just in case somebody didn't "hear" it the first time 😉 ) -- I fully admit this is my "thing" and may not be a widely held opinion. And that's okay.

[Ginevra]

8 hours ago, Shoeless said:

One thing that stunned me during the pandemic was how quickly some people I knew fell apart. Like, 2-3 weeks into lockdown, they were in a mental health crisis. And this was when we were all still under the delusion that this was a temporary blip and life would return to "normal" relatively soon.

I had my own low point where I completely fell apart; I don't remember how long it took to get there. A few months? A year? Time felt really squishy then, so I really don't know. But I know it wasn't only 2 weeks. 

I am not saying any of the above in a snarky, "Clearly, I am better than those weaklings!" kind of way. The last few years have pushed everyone to their breaking point. I wish I could have a do-over for so many interactions where I utterly lost my 💩. And if you're a person that felt like they were on the receiving end of my meltdown, I am very much sorry. 

Seeing people unravel in only a few weeks was very sobering. 

Agree. I think COVID really demonstrated what both societies and individuals are really like. It is positive, innovative people who can flex who get through it better. It was so clear the way things got dark after 2-4 weeks of the pandemic. There were even memes about it like: first two weeks, fluffy bunny people. After that, Rambo with an uzi. 

[Heartstrings]

48 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

These threads kind of bother me. I'm all for everyone being prepared to be self sufficient during short term emergencies--weather events that confine us to our homes, power outages, supply chain blips, etc. But going beyond that seems sort of tone deaf to me, given what some people around the globe are currently experiencing--things that those of us in first world countries are very unlikely to ever experience.

The way these threads go always bothers me.  A few of us start talking about a few gallons of water, maybe some extra rows in the garden, or a bigger stash of coffee and then start getting yelled at for being extreme, because extreme people exist and any level of preparation makes us all Dooms Dayers.  There is no room for nuance.  One gallon of water in the cabinet is the same as Prepper Porn.    No one was talking about surviving a literal apocalypse, until people came in telling us how we shouldn't be thinking about surviving an apocalypse.  

[Pawz4me]

14 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The way these threads go always bothers me.  A few of us start talking about a few gallons of water, maybe some extra rows in the garden, or a bigger stash of coffee and then start getting yelled at for being extreme, because extreme people exist and any level of preparation makes us all Dooms Dayers.  There is no room for nuance.  One gallon of water in the cabinet is the same as Prepper Porn.    No one was talking about surviving a literal apocalypse, until people came in telling us how we shouldn't be thinking about surviving an apocalypse.  

I’m not sure that’s true. I guess your interpretation of what a WWIII might look like isn’t an apocalyptic type vision, but other equally reasonable people could certainly view it as such. 

ETA: What I mean is that I think people have been discussing all sorts of scenarios. Unless someone posts a very specific, detailed scenario then discussion is going to be all over the place. And envisioning WWIII is non specific. None of us really knows what that might look like for our individual selves. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Pawz4me

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I’m not sure that’s true. I guess your interpretation of what a WWIII might look like isn’t an apocalyptic type vision, but other equally reasonable people could certainly view it as such. 

ETA: What I mean is that I think people have been discussing all sorts of scenarios. Unless someone posts a very specific, detailed scenario then discussion is going to be all over the place. And envisioning WWIII is non specific. None of us really knows what that might look like for our individual selves. 

Good points.

And I hold multiple thoughts in my head at once, all the time, lol. Like, our grandparents (or greats) survived many wars. That’s a pro. Of course war is different today. That’s a con. Etc., etc.

[Katy]

To be clear I seriously doubt WWIII would bring a collapse of society OR similar apocalyptic scenarios in any sort of worldwide way. In a local way absolutely. Look what 4 days of bombing has done to Gaza. But that kind of damage, historically, has been local and has not led to any sort of widespread societal collapse. 

I was talking about growing a big garden and getting extra toilet paper again bc of supply chain issues, not an apocalyptic collapse. 

Yes, I am aware of my privilege when I’m eating 10 kinds of plants and sparkling water for lunch and logging my food choices into cronometer. I’m not obsessed but I do track my foods from time to time to make sure I’m getting everything I need. My dad’s side of the family typically dies in their mid 50’s from heart disease or cancer and I’d like to live far longer than that. My lunch salad had 4 varieties of cruciferous vegetables for that reason.

Yes, I know people who have survived on what they could scavenge (my dad’s FOO was very poor after my grandfather was disabled, probably contributing to short lifespans), and definitely contributing to their hatred of fish as adults. I’m absolutely certain I could scavenge and farm enough food for my family to survive if I lived in my hometown, but I think I’d be pretty likely to need antibiotics sooner or later in the event that was necessary. If I couldn’t get them that would likely be the end of me. Also I now live in the midwest, where it’s much harder to find enough fish, where the fish and water are contaminated with agricultural runoff, and where cold is likely to kill you pretty quickly if you couldn’t get enough firewood in the winter. 

[marbel]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

Yes, I am aware of my privilege when I’m eating 10 kinds of plants and sparkling water for lunch and logging my food choices into cronometer. I’m not obsessed but I do track my foods from time to time to make sure I’m getting everything I need. My dad’s side of the family typically dies in their mid 50’s from heart disease or cancer and I’d like to live far longer than that. My lunch salad had 4 varieties of cruciferous vegetables for that reason.

Agreed. We can recognize privilege while taking advantage of the things we are privileged to have access to.

My family of origin is generally long-lived but my grandparents fled Europe for the US, and they and my parents experienced poverty here. And ya know? I'm pretty sure they would be happy to see their descendants doing better than they did. (My father said that was the hope of parenting: to see his kids doing better than he had.) Keeping track of my calcium intake to help keep my bones from deteriorating? Yeah pretty sure my granny whose decline started with a broken hip would be OK with that. 

[Corraleno]

I think trying to prepare for a truly apocalyptic scenario, like nuclear war on US soil or a complete collapse of the economy, is pointless, but it absolutely makes sense to ensure that your family is prepared for (1) local/regional natural disasters, which are becoming more frequent and more extreme; (2) serious supply chain disruptions caused by disease, crop failures, foreign wars, strikes, non-local disasters, etc; and (3) precipitous short-term and gradual long-term increases in the cost of food.

Ideally, everyone who is able to ensure they have enough food, water, TP, and medical supplies for their family for at least 2 weeks, and preferably a month or more, should do that. If you have the funds and storage space to keep enough on hand to potentially help out friends/relatives/neighbors in need, that's even better, but at least if you can cover your own family, that leaves more government or charity aid for those who don't have the funds or the space to stock up.

Being able to grow some of your own food really can help mitigate the effect of supply chain disruptions and price increases. Even if you're only growing the easy stuff that's usually cheap and easily available at the grocery store (lettuce, spinach, tomatoes, zucchini, cucumbers, green beans, etc.), if the price of coffee or chicken or whatever goes through the roof, then at least the money you're saving on basic produce can cover the increases on things you can't produce yourself. And if you're stuck eating canned food for a few weeks, then having fresh produce available can make a big difference. You can even grow sprouts or micro greens on your kitchen counter in very little space.

I don't think there's any question that food prices are going to continue rising, and many people are simply not going to be able to afford to continue to eat the way they do now when the cost of that doubles. So learning to cook at least a few cheap, healthy, plant-based meals that everyone in the family likes not only helps keep costs down, but if everyone did it it would help reduce the environmental and climate damage that is partly causing the rise in prices. Adding lentil soup, black bean chili, chickpea curry, pasta w/cannelini beans, etc., to your meal rotation is good for your wallet, good for your health, and good for the environment, and when you're stuck eating from your pantry because you're snowed in, or grocery stores are closed, or whatever, you can eat real meals instead of just subsisting on saltines and boxed Mac & cheese.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Corraleno

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

The way these threads go always bothers me.  A few of us start talking about a few gallons of water, maybe some extra rows in the garden, or a bigger stash of coffee and then start getting yelled at for being extreme, because extreme people exist and any level of preparation makes us all Dooms Dayers.  There is no room for nuance.  One gallon of water in the cabinet is the same as Prepper Porn.    No one was talking about surviving a literal apocalypse, until people came in telling us how we shouldn't be thinking about surviving an apocalypse.  

The first post specifically talked about preparation for WW III.
The pictures below shows my hometown after one single night of bombing in WW II. 
Extrapolate that to WW III and nuclear weapons, and you get something quite apocalyptic.

Edited October 12, 2023 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Adding to my previous comment:
I realize that, for many Americans, envisioning the effects of WWIII looks very different from mine, because neither WW I nor II led to vast destruction and large-scale loss of civilian lives on American soil. That creates quite a privileged view of what a world war entails.
It's magnitudes scarier for people whose countries were devastated (and took decades to restore)

Edited October 12, 2023 by regentrude

[AnotherNewName]

21 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Have you ever sprouted 5+ year old heirloom seeds? My germination rate has been <10% once they hit that age, even with scarification and some of the other methods of trying to reinvigorate them. Freezing them in my house freezer didn’t boost germination compared to cool, dark storage either. Even seed banks continually regrow their seeds and reharvest in order to have fresh and viable storage.

 

20 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The issue with this is soil contamination. I learned during our bushfire - I thought we didn’t need to store bottled water thanks to our rain water tanks, but once fire fighting foam has been used on your roof none of the water in the tanks is drinkable any more. Same with nuclear weapons etc if your plan is gardening.

Gardening is great for many reasons but I’m not sure that surviving the next major world war is one of them.

1.) Not every future disaster is nuclear war.

2.) If someone is a prepper (I am not) having multiple, more easily storable items that can be used for future trade makes more sense than the plans most people make.

Personally, *if* a large scale nuclear broke out, I personally have no interest in sticking around for the aftermath.

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

The first post specifically talked about preparation for WW III.
The pictures below shows my hometown after one single night of bombing in WW II. 
Extrapolate that to WW III and nuclear weapons, and you get something quite apocalyptic.

I got potassium iodide packets here and got them for my family, too, not because of fear of a nuclear war but because I live fairly close to a nuclear power plant.

As a child, I remember seeing the air raid shelter signs that were still around.  I remember how my father had to pack a suitcase to work because he was going to be evacuated if DC got bombed (he worked for VOA, and apparently, news to the outside world was very important), and unfortunately, I do not remember if it was during the 67 war or the Yom Kippur War or something else entirely. I was interested in history and saw that an older book in my area (Arlington, VA) showed concentric rings of what the effects would be of a nuclear explosion over the Washington Monument.  I knew I was in the fry zone and decided I couldn't do anything about that.    As it is, I live in a wonderful city now, but certainly, in a nuke war against the USA, it would be one of the first targets.  I see no purpose in worrying.

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Adding to my previous comment:
I realize that, for many Americans, envisioning the effects of WWIII looks very different from mine, because neither WW I nor II led to vast destruction and large-scale loss of civilian lives on American soil. That creates quite a privileged view of what a world war entails.
It's magnitudes scarier for people whose countries were devastated (and took decades to restore)

We traveled to Poland as a family on a long vacation in 1974, and there were still areas of Warsaw in rubble from the war.  To this day, people still have to evacuate areas at times because of WW2's unexploded bombs in Europe and probably other areas as well.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

I got potassium iodide packets here and got them for my family, too, not because of fear of a nuclear war but because I live fairly close to a nuclear power plant.

 

Years ago I lived near a nuclear power plant. When we moved in we were sent a pamphlet from the power plant, with half the information reassuring us how nothing bad could EVER EVER EVER happen to the plant and it was 100 percent safe...and the other half telling us what to do if something DID go wrong. I found it hard to take seriously the 100 percent safe part after that, lol. 

[Melissa Louise]

I'd just like to point out:

1. Title of thread 

2. Nobody yelling. In fact, was at pains to agree that if one has the luck to be able to prep for short term disaster of the type that is not WW3, that is both wise and great for you. 

3. WW3/climate won't be apocalyptic? Really? OK. 

[Melissa Louise]

6 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Agree. I think COVID really demonstrated what both societies and individuals are really like. It is positive, innovative people who can flex who get through it better. It was so clear the way things got dark after 2-4 weeks of the pandemic. There were even memes about it like: first two weeks, fluffy bunny people. After that, Rambo with an uzi. 

Not everyone was in the same boat.

I did great in lockdown, not sure why. WFH probably. And no kid school responsibility. 

My sis, in a tiny flat with an anxious child having to work full time and school child and under a series of fairly intense lockdowns, not so much. 

It's not all down to attitude. 

[Katy]

I don’t think WWIII would necessarily involve nuclear war. Mutually ensured destruction gets no one victory. But I also think it’s extremely unlikely for rural areas of the world to have much bombing damage at all. So no, not considering an apocalypse. 

[regentrude]

32 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Not everyone was in the same boat.

I did great in lockdown, not sure why. WFH probably. And no kid school responsibility. 

My sis, in a tiny flat with an anxious child having to work full time and school child and under a series of fairly intense lockdowns, not so much. 

It's not all down to attitude. 

So much this.

Early in the shutdown, lots of homeschooling friends posted memes how good it is to be home, to have time to meditate and rest, to focus on family and appreciate the pause from outside activities. 

Meanwhile, my colleagues and I worked frantically to convert all our classes to online teaching with two days notice, learned to use unfamiliar software and taught the less tech savvy coworkers how to do that. Ran all over town in the unsuccessful attempt to buy a Webcam or a headset. Fielded insane amounts of email from the upper administration, with plans and orders changing several times a day.

I have never worked as hard as in those weeks,  and I remember my seething anger at all the insipid gushy posts from incredibly privileged people while I sat crying with exhaustion, packing up my office because we were ordered to work from home with none of the infrastructure.

Now imagine healthcare workers who were confronted with disease and death, at risk  themselves, camping out in garages because they couldn't risk bringing it home to their families.

For some people, the initial weeks were incredibly stressful.

Edited October 12, 2023 by regentrude

[Wheres Toto]

I definitely appreciated how lucky we were in the early days of the pandemic.  My business had to close temporarily but compared to what many others dealt with, that was pretty minor.  My kids have never been in school so not too much changed there - a good thing when one has anxiety and one is on the spectrum.  Dh could work from home and mask mandates came early here so I was less worried about when he did go out, or when older dd was working.  

I love reading dystopian literature (love Alas Babylon) and it does lead to thoughts about what if?  

We do have enough food to last at least a few weeks, dh cooks from scratch and can do a lot with little.    Until recently none of us had complex medical needs or regular medication. That changed in the past year and dh now has daily medication that he needs to live.  

Key does seem to be reacting early, being somewhat prepared, paying attention and don't waste time being in denial.  

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Years ago I lived near a nuclear power plant. When we moved in we were sent a pamphlet from the power plant, with half the information reassuring us how nothing bad could EVER EVER EVER happen to the plant and it was 100 percent safe...and the other half telling us what to do if something DID go wrong. I found it hard to take seriously the 100 percent safe part after that, lol. 

I worked at Parker River Wildlife Refuge in MA as a young adult. And every day that I crossed the bridge I read the sign "No Evacuation Possible". Seabrook nuclear power station is nearby and the very small bridge to the island could not handle an evacuation of residents. The Refuge had iodine tablets for its staff on-site and was a part of our safety training. My plan was to take a jeep, drive to the end of the island, and swim. 

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

But going beyond that seems sort of tone deaf to me, given what some people around the globe are currently experiencing--things that those of us in first world countries are very unlikely to ever experience.

We had to get an elderly relative out of Ukraine recently. (A sort of grandmother -- the mom of my first stepdad, who I'm still close to.) 

The only thing that was useful in that case was just moving. Her building didn't have heat or electricity and had holes in it from being shot at. It's true that she lived in a city and didn't have a garden, but trust me . . . it wasn't going to make much of a difference when there are HOLES in your residence. 

She did move to a different apartment before she left the country entirely, but it wasn't at all obvious how long that was going to last. 

There are lots of eventualities you really can't prepare for. That's why I said upthread that the best thing can just be to be wiling to adjust. If she hadn't been willing to move to California in her 80s, I'm pretty sure she'd already be dead. 

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Not everyone was in the same boat.

I did great in lockdown, not sure why. WFH probably. And no kid school responsibility. 

My sis, in a tiny flat with an anxious child having to work full time and school child and under a series of fairly intense lockdowns, not so much. 

It's not all down to attitude. 

Definitely lots of different scenarios that make for different starting points. My sister was stuck with our… let’s say not-child-friendly parents with her toddler and preschooler. It was a crappy starting point.

My kids got kinda bummed after a while, but didn’t have to worry about being on their best behavior 24/7. (As if!)

[regentrude]

Another aspect nobody has mentioned re WW 3: in case of an actual world War and prolonged conflict, the professional military will not suffice and the draft will be reactivated. Your husbands and sons will be gone, and it will be women and children and old men at home.

All of my father’s childhood friends were raised by single mothers.

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

So much this.

Early in the shutdown, lots of homeschooling friends posted memes how good it is to be home, to have time to meditate and rest, to focus on family and appreciate the pause from outside activities. 

Meanwhile, my colleagues and I worked frantically to convert all our classes to online teaching with two days notice, learned to use unfamiliar software and taught the less tech savvy coworkers how to do that. Ran all over town in the unsuccessful attempt to buy a Webcam or a headset. Fielded insane amounts of email from the upper administration, with plans and orders changing several times a day.

I have never worked as hard as in those weeks,  and I remember my seething anger at all the insipid gushy posts from incredibly privileged people while I sat crying with exhaustion, packing up my office because we were ordered to work from home with none of the infrastructure.

Now imagine healthcare workers who were confronted with disease and death, at risk  themselves, camping out in garages because they couldn't risk bringing it home to their families.

For some people, the initial weeks were incredibly stressful.

My dd3 had her work computer fail.  And they couldn't get her another because of the global crisis. And she had just such a very hard time.  Getting Covid 2, surgery, almost dying from anaphylaxis.  

Thankfully, working in a much better place now.  Married, has a great husband, and life is better.

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Another aspect nobody has mentioned re WW 3: in case of an actual world War and prolonged conflict, the professional military will not suffice and the draft will be reactivated. Your husbands and sons will be gone, and it will be women and children and old men at home.

All of my father’s childhood friends were raised by single mothers.

I would anticipate females being included in a draft. My own husband and son’s won’t be included. My daughters both have potential to be excluded, but one would likely be interested. 😞

(Anyway, it’s not just about me, but replying to my specific “you”.)

I already know reservists expecting to eventually be called up. We have a tenant to discuss hypotheticals with.

[PinkTulip]

35 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Another aspect nobody has mentioned re WW 3: in case of an actual world War and prolonged conflict, the professional military will not suffice and the draft will be reactivated. Your husbands and sons will be gone, and it will be women and children and old men at home.

This is what I think about. I have 4 who are all currently within the draft age. 

[BeachGal]

44 minutes ago, PinkTulip said:

This is what I think about. I have 4 who are all currently within the draft age. 

It’s unlikely they’d be drafted.

My husband, who went to West Point, has said that the US and allies would likely fight in ways other than soldiers on the ground. Also, drafted soldiers rarely want to fight and could turn on their officers and other soldiers during war. The military doesn’t want that.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

It’s unlikely they’d be drafted.

My husband, who went to West Point, has said that the US and allies would likely fight in ways other than soldiers on the ground. Also, drafted soldiers rarely want to fight and could turn on their officers and other soldiers during war. The military doesn’t want that.

The US hasn't had to fight any wars on its soil. It's a uniquely privileged position. Those of us who've lived in Europe know that things are a lot more chaotic when the war is at home. 

[BeachGal]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The US hasn't had to fight any wars on its soil. It's a uniquely privileged position. Those of us who've lived in Europe know that things are a lot more chaotic when the war is at home. 

Not true. Wars have been fought here in the US. Not WWI or WWII but we have had some horrible wars in the US. War is chaotic wherever it’s fought.

I am not going to get into too many details but my husband and his older brother are from Italy and Germany, respectively. His brother, now in his 80s, was born in Germany during WWII. Their family survived numerous bombings and all kinds of traumatic and horrendous events. My husband was very much influenced by what his family experienced. That is why he went into the military.

Regardless, the way wars were fought in WWI and WWII is not likely how we will continue to fight wars in the future largely due to advances in technology and other methods of fighting as well as learning from past mistakes.

[fairfarmhand]

12 hours ago, regentrude said:

Another aspect nobody has mentioned re WW 3: in case of an actual world War and prolonged conflict, the professional military will not suffice and the draft will be reactivated. Your husbands and sons will be gone, and it will be women and children and old men at home.

All of my father’s childhood friends were raised by single mothers.

This.

i haven’t worried too much about food and all because I figure any prepping won’t last as long as the conflict. We’ll figure that out when we get there. 
but.

i have a 15 yr old son. My sil is 25. My dh probably would not be drafted until extremely late because he’s an essential worker. 
 

but my sweet son. My sil. My dds guy friends and the students I teach…

[BeachGal]

The following article discusses the fragging that occurred during the Vietnam War. Soldiers killing their own officers is one reason the military does not want drafted soldiers. They do not want to be there. A soldier’s mental disposition is just as important as their physical well being. 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-forgotten-history-of-fragging-in-vietnam_b_5a1b77b6e4b0cee6c050939d

In addition to thousands of threats that were never carried out, there were confirmed reports of at least 800 fraggings or attempted fraggings in the Army and Marine Corps, with 86 men killed and an estimated 700 wounded. “But this was probably only the tip of a deadly iceberg,” says historian James Westheider. The true figure may never be known. 

According to Westheider, many officers felt unsafe simply because they were authority figures. During his second tour in Vietnam at Duc Pho in 1968-1969, Major Colin Powell (later a four-star general) said he was “living in a large tent and I moved my cot every night, partly to thwart Viet Cong informants who might be tracking me, but also because I did not rule out attacks on authority from within the battalion itself.” Captain Thomas Cecil, who was stationed at Cam Ranh Bay in 1970-1971, “was so worried about attacks on his life that during his last month in Vietnam, he slept in the military intelligence (MI) bunker, and only his battalion commander knew where he was at night.”

[Faith-manor]

On 10/12/2023 at 5:46 AM, Eos said:

Two words: cholera shots.

Yes. And in that stupid game, I died of snake bite so often that it convinced me as a kid that the west was so entirely inundated with rattlers that one could not stir a step without encountering one. 😂😂😂

Oregon Trail was one of the most traumatizing games ever!! And then they turned it into a card game, and my demented son in law bought it, and subjected me to playing it FOURTEEN times. Only ONCE did we actually have a member of the party survive to the end. The Donner party had better odds! 

On another note, our entire county with a population of 52,000 people only has one warming center, a small high school building that can handle at the very very most, about 500 people. We have had storms so bad that half the county was out of power for an extended period, and the county did not even open it up for warming because it couldn't afford the gas/diesel for the generators to operate the forced air furnaces, didn't have the staff, or both. I think people who are dependent upon city services, services which tend to be reliable and well funded, do not have any idea how rural folks survive inclement weather. And of course we definitely have times when people do not survive it.

So we do have more of a drive, as a general rule, to be less dependent on the community at large, and more on our own preparations and family/friend pods. LOL, I think wr may have been preparing our whole lives for covid. Hunkering down is not new.

An actual world war???? No one can prepare for that in any kind of big way. However, some of the pain could potentially be mitigated by some of us because we do have some resources to put to that, and so we will do what we can for our family and neighbors. But most of us do regularly have to be able to manage 5-10 days and even more without back up from the community. So we tend to think more about resourcefulness and preparation. Most people can do nothing. However, I can see rising food prices, the pressure on my young adults, and I can do something to ease that pain. Therefore, I choose to do that. No judgements to those who are not able to do the same. You do you. I will do me. 

Now, if we get bombed with nukes, I do prefer to be in the "instantly vaporized" group. I have no desire to be trying to navigate the aftermath of that! 

Climate change IS going to cause people in our life times to have to adapt to some pretty awful stuff, and it IS worth thinking about. Animals are migrating north in the Northern Hemisphere, South in the Southern Hemisphere at an average rate of 10-30 miles per year now. This means in ten years, species normally not found in colder climates will be adapting and arriving here. For rural folks living near water sources, like me, it is worth giving some thought to and researching how that might play out, what kind of adaptations might be useful. Sorry to say, but it is going to wreck havoc on ecosystems, and we will all feel that pain. Our government does not give a crap. So we, the little guy, must actually deal with this. I have to do so. I have three precious grandsons who deserve to have their parents and grandparents thinking about how they can help them through it.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, BeachGal said:

The following article discusses the fragging that occurred during the Vietnam War. Soldiers killing their own officers is one reason the military does not want drafted soldiers. They do not want to be there. A soldier’s mental disposition is just as important as their physical well being. 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-forgotten-history-of-fragging-in-vietnam_b_5a1b77b6e4b0cee6c050939d

In addition to thousands of threats that were never carried out, there were confirmed reports of at least 800 fraggings or attempted fraggings in the Army and Marine Corps, with 86 men killed and an estimated 700 wounded. “But this was probably only the tip of a deadly iceberg,” says historian James Westheider. The true figure may never be known. 

According to Westheider, many officers felt unsafe simply because they were authority figures. During his second tour in Vietnam at Duc Pho in 1968-1969, Major Colin Powell (later a four-star general) said he was “living in a large tent and I moved my cot every night, partly to thwart Viet Cong informants who might be tracking me, but also because I did not rule out attacks on authority from within the battalion itself.” Captain Thomas Cecil, who was stationed at Cam Ranh Bay in 1970-1971, “was so worried about attacks on his life that during his last month in Vietnam, he slept in the military intelligence (MI) bunker, and only his battalion commander knew where he was at night.”

One of the biggest lessons to come out of the Russia/Ukraine war is that unmotivated conscripts with little training are more of a liability than an asset in a 21st century war. The rest of the world has been pretty shocked to discover that the Russian military is almost entirely dependent on the use of conscripted canon fodder and still fights like it's 1945. The joke is that Russia, once considered the 2nd most powerful military in the world, is not even the 2nd best military in Ukraine (Ukraine #1, Wagner #2, Russia #3).

Russia has 4x the number of active soldiers as Ukraine, and they are still getting beat by a much smaller force equipped with higher tech weapons. And the US has vastly more high tech weapons and equipment, including stuff that we are not giving Ukraine. Ukraine is destroying tanks and ammo and taking out whole groups of soldiers with cheap grenades strapped to drones you can get at Best Buy, because Russian conscripts don't know what they're doing, accidentally give away locations, leave tank hatches open, etc.

Russian soldiers often have to buy their own uniforms and boots, they're using helmets and body armor designed for air soft games, many of them are stuck with barely functional 50 year old weapons, and bullets are strictly rationed. Soldiers have posted videos of opening crates of ammo or food rations only to discover the crates are full of rocks or other fillers, because the oligarchs who were awarded the military supply contract spent the money on a yacht and a condo in Switzerland instead of actually manufacturing the goods. Morale is nonexistent and fragging is a serious problem.

If the US ever gets sucked into a WW3, we're not going to be drafting 40 year olds as canon fodder and sending them to the front to fight in trenches like it's 1945. The current rules for a draft start with 20 yr olds, then 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 19, 18, in that order. And we're going to be training them in the use of high tech weaponry and surveillance equipment, not tossing them in trenches with a rifle and telling them good luck.

[regentrude]

@Corraleno but the Ukraine is drafting men, too.

Whether you're fighting to defend your own country against an invasion or are forced into a war you don't believe in makes a big difference. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Upthread there were some comments about privilege.

My POV on this is informed by my Christian faith, and it is that privilege is supposed to be used in service to others.  So cheerful generosity is the best way to handle it.

[El...]

On 10/12/2023 at 7:30 PM, Not_a_Number said:

We had to get an elderly relative out of Ukraine recently. (A sort of grandmother -- the mom of my first stepdad, who I'm still close to.) 

The only thing that was useful in that case was just moving. Her building didn't have heat or electricity and had holes in it from being shot at. It's true that she lived in a city and didn't have a garden, but trust me . . . it wasn't going to make much of a difference when there are HOLES in your residence. 

She did move to a different apartment before she left the country entirely, but it wasn't at all obvious how long that was going to last. 

There are lots of eventualities you really can't prepare for. That's why I said upthread that the best thing can just be to be wiling to adjust. If she hadn't been willing to move to California in her 80s, I'm pretty sure she'd already be dead. 

Just now reading this thread. My support and hugs to your sweet relative. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, El... said:

Just now reading this thread. My support and hugs to your sweet relative. 

Thank you!!!