Anyone waiting for this docuseries? Shiny Happy People

[Faith-manor]

10 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

What was he caught with and how did he get it? Is that public knowledge? Just curious.  

It is public knowledge. You can go to the information page on inmates for seagoville to see it. He was caught with a cell phone. He lost good behavior days he hadn't even earned yet. What the feds do is begin with the assumption that the inmate will want to get out as early as possible so they set their projected release date at the 85%, calculate the date, and then if they mess up, the warden pushes the release date back by the amount of days added for punishment. It also shows what privileges were lost and for how long. It is public record because once convicted, apparently part of being a federal inmate is no privacy. No word yet on his appeal. Arguments were heard in federal court in Kansas City, MO 3 months ago.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It was *not* his cell phone. He’s in prison for partitioning his work computer to watch/get off on the sexual abuse/torture of elementary/preschool-age minors.

Getting caught with a cell phone got him in trouble in prison.  He was in solitary for while and lost phone call privileges for 6 months now that he’s out of solitary.  

 

 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It was *not* his cell phone. He’s in prison for partitioning his work computer to watch/get off on the sexual abuse/torture of elementary/preschool-age minors.

Younger than that. There were infants. Not gonna say more. I have read the court transcripts and the descriptions of the material. I don't recommend anyone else do that. But, some local folks were defending him and saying it just couldn't be that bad, so I wanted the evidence to present to shut that down.

[Sneezyone]

55 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Younger than that. There were infants. Not gonna say more. I have read the court transcripts and the descriptions of the material. I don't recommend anyone else do that. But, some local folks were defending him and saying it just couldn't be that bad, so I wanted the evidence to present to shut that down.

The whole cult/basic ideology is enough to make me rage. No thank you. If anyone wants to understand the origins of my discontent, imagine going from the pacnorwest with a multiracial background/family to snooty CT, to SoCal, to THIS PLACE. It was awful. I hated them. HATED. Everything about it makes me angry to this day...the way my sibs and I were treated, the way it broke their spirits. It’s taken a long time to own that sentiment and DH is the only good thing I got from that time. We will NEVER go back. NEVER. This ideology is toxic and, sadly, pervasive.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Sneezyone

[busymama7]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Getting caught with a cell phone got him in trouble in prison.  He was in solitary for while and lost phone call privileges for 6 months now that he’s out of solitary.  

 

 

Yes this is what I was asking. I knew what his original charges were. 🤢   How do inmates get cell phones in prison? I know almost nothing about these things.  Did someone sneak it in to him? That's the other part of what I was wondering.  

[rebcoola]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

 she will be in her mid forties when he gets out, he can't live with her so may never get pregnant again. She doesn't have much to worry about, and in the cult, she is a heroine for standing by her man regardless of the fact that he is a despicable, criminal, demented, pedo. Possibly she is not remotely miserable at the moment.

This would be the best outcome but assuming she is still IBPL entrenched she will likely be pressured to sign the kids over to family.so she can live with Josh.    

[Annie G]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that they didn’t teach the kids what sex is and yet they spent a LOT of time talking about how men have ‘problems with their eyes’ and that they need to remain pure, etc.  The indoctrination and control they had is mind boggling because evidently the kids never asked questions like normal curious kids do. 
 

[Heartstrings]

6 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Yes this is what I was asking. I knew what his original charges were. 🤢   How do inmates get cell phones in prison? I know almost nothing about these things.  Did someone sneak it in to him? That's the other part of what I was wondering.  

It’s fairly common somehow.  Currupt guards, smuggled in in care packages, carried in by visitors hiding them…in .places.   Drugs and cell phones are BIG money in prison and there will always be a supply where there is demand.  

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that they didn’t teach the kids what sex is and yet they spent a LOT of time talking about how men have ‘problems with their eyes’ and that they need to remain pure, etc.  The indoctrination and control they had is mind boggling because evidently the kids never asked questions like normal curious kids do. 
 

Blanket trained babies do not have curiosity. Imagine being six months old and being placed on a blanket, your favorite toy placed just out of reach on the blanket. You naturally try to crawl over to get your toy and the second your body leaves the blanket, your mother jumps our of hiding screaming like a maniac to frighten you, smacks you on the back of the legs (never on the diaper because that would not be painful enough) and in the case of Michelle Duggar not with a hand but with a flexible ruler, and then dumps you back on the blanket, and the toy in your line of sight and just out of reach. This process is repeated until you as a baby have no desire to try to touch or play with your toy, and you are afraid to move. Imagine that whenever you cry, you are pinched or slapped because crying is a sin. Imagine your demented mother in her sing song voice with the crazy eyes constantly reminding you to obey instantly or risk "encouragement" which is IBLP code for a beating. And always smile. Never get caught nor smiling when the dementor is around and tells you to do something. Imagine your homeschool is Wisdom Booklets which tell you that you will go to hell if you ever question your parents, your pastor, your sistermom, Gothard, and if female, literally any male in your family that is older than you, and curiosity is described as evil and leading to destruction. Imagine your family plays and IBLP boars game for funsies based on Dante's Inferno type descriptions and every single thing that happens in that game causes your character to fall into eternal torture and you have been playing that game since you were a little kid.

Now imagine that you are Anna Keller with all of that at her home, not Michelle D but her own mother is equally as horrible, and your father has a prison "ministry" at a woman's prison, and he tells you that all the bad things these women did is because they questioned authority. 

The net result is a female terrified to ask questions and contemplate that which was not expressly explained by her parents or contained within the wisdom booklets.

[maize]

11 minutes ago, Annie G said:

  The indoctrination and control they had is mind boggling because evidently the kids never asked questions like normal curious kids do. 
 

Not all kids ask questions about stuff like this. I never did. I was more inclined to try to figure stuff out on my own.

I still am, though I've learned to turn to other people more often over the years.

Sex ed advice to parents to just answer questions naturally as they come up always made me roll my eyes. That's great advice for kids who ask but terrible advice for kids who don't. Mine, like me, tend not to ask.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I have to comment because I just have to. I had no idea about this docuseries (living under a rock maybe) but the first time I saw this thread I was excited because I thought the docuseries was going to be about REM. Every time I see the thread title, I hear Kate Pierson (of B-52s fame) singing "Shiny happy people holding hands".

 

I have not read the thread so if anyone else wrote about this I apologize but now I'm off to add Shiny Happy People to my Pandora playlist.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

44 minutes ago, maize said:

Not all kids ask questions about stuff like this. I never did. I was more inclined to try to figure stuff out on my own.

I still am, though I've learned to turn to other people more often over the years.

Sex ed advice to parents to just answer questions naturally as they come up always made me roll my eyes. That's great advice for kids who ask but terrible advice for kids who don't. Mine, like me, tend not to ask.

I didn’t either, but my mom would have been deeply uncomfortable with questions anyway.  My kids don’t ask questions even though I’ve tried to make a comfortable atmosphere.  But honestly they just aren’t very interested in sex.  I’ve had to force the conversations about puberty and such.

[Calm37]

I watched the first episode last night. This series should come with a trigger warning for older homeschool moms! I lived through a lot of that stuff, including gathering the family to watch the show. My kids thought it was funny/weird, at the time. We knew a few large families that were similar in appearance, though not belief.

I am old enough to remember Bill Gothard being a big deal for EVERYBODY in the Chicago area for a year or two. Those big crowds you see him speaking to are some pretty normal people caught up in a "latest, greatest thing." Our large Chicago-area church had many hundreds of people attend the basic seminar. I remember my dad having the binders. I asked him about it a few years before he died. He said it was weird, legalism, not helpful, didn't last. 

I read the Pearls and received their newsletters. They were like roadkill in a lot of ways. I actually bought her marriage book! It had a lot of "do this or your husband will be a pervert" sort of advice. I rarely put a book in the paper recycling, but, yeah.

Anyone remember Above Rubies? That still comes in the mail every once in a while. Not weird, but still a sign of that time of life to me. 

Oh gosh........... 

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Ugh I remember Above Rubies. I have a semi estranged sibling who lives in their area and idolized them.  The abuse those people heaped on their adoptive children (and most likely biological children) and then abandoned the older adopted kids is sickening.

[MercyA]

11 hours ago, Annie G said:

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that they didn’t teach the kids what sex is and yet they spent a LOT of time talking about how men have ‘problems with their eyes’ and that they need to remain pure, etc.  The indoctrination and control they had is mind boggling because evidently the kids never asked questions like normal curious kids do. 
 

Right?!? It looks like the ATI materials were chock FULL of references to lust, temptation, etc., which in itself is totally inappropriate, but yet no one explained to the kids what the heck they were actually talking about? It does boggle the mind. 

One of the women on the show who was abused by Gothard remarked that she didn't even know what virginity was. Gothard asked her if she was a virgin, and she said, of course, yes sir, but she only knew that virginity was (paraphrasing) "this thing inside myself that was just for that one special person." She was, I think, 17 or 18 at the time.

Edited June 5, 2023 by MercyA

[Danae]

28 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Right?!? It looks like the ATI materials were chock FULL of references to lust, temptation, etc., which in itself is totally inappropriate, but yet no one explained to the kids what the heck they were actually talking about? It does boggle the mind. 

One of the women on the show who was abused by Gothard remarked that she didn't even know what virginity was. Gothard asked her if she was a virgin, and she said, of course, yes sir, but she only knew that virginity was (paraphrasing) "this thing inside herself that was just for that one special person." She was, I think, 17 or 18 at the time.

I personally know three different women who got pregnant as teens who didn’t know that what they were doing with their boyfriends was having sex.  Abstinence only sex education doesn’t work if you don’t get enough factual education to know what you’re supposed to be abstaining from.  

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Calm37 said:

Anyone remember Above Rubies? That still comes in the mail every once in a while. Not weird, but still a sign of that time of life to me. 

Oh gosh........... 

 

I remember.

We stopped going to homeschool conferences because “character training” was emphasized more than educational teaching. What had been a very lovely conference, complete with an entire track of SPED speakers, became all patriarchy and character training. 

The local homeschool groups began requiring you to sign a statement of faith.

A nearby city adopted “citizenship training” (IBLP inspired materials for promoting character building in communities).

We began to see more PACs funding candidates to promote certain agendas. 

The late 90s and early 2000s were when all of those wheels began to grind into gear.

 

[Heartstrings]

35 minutes ago, Danae said:

I personally know three different women who got pregnant as teens who didn’t know that what they were doing with their boyfriends was having sex.  Abstinence only sex education doesn’t work if you don’t get enough factual education to know what you’re supposed to be abstaining from.  

I fully believe you, I am just so curious as to what they thought they were doing and what they thought made babies?   Storks?   Getting pregnant requires some level of undress….
I probably would have been the same way if my parents had had their way.  I got enough between school and cable tv to puzzle it all out.  

[maize]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I didn’t either, but my mom would have been deeply uncomfortable with questions anyway.  My kids don’t ask questions even though I’ve tried to make a comfortable atmosphere.  But honestly they just aren’t very interested in sex.  I’ve had to force the conversations about puberty and such.

Kids not being interested in sex also means they don't necessarily absorb the things you do tell them.

I remember some years ago gathering my kids around and reading It's Not The Stork to them. The very next week the word sex came up in a conversation and one of my boys said, completely clueless, "what's sex?" I reminded him of the book we had just read that was all about sex and he still drew a blank. I finally said "sex is the word we use for when humans mate" and it clicked. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by maize

[Terabith]

45 minutes ago, Danae said:

I personally know three different women who got pregnant as teens who didn’t know that what they were doing with their boyfriends was having sex.  Abstinence only sex education doesn’t work if you don’t get enough factual education to know what you’re supposed to be abstaining from.  

I was NOT raised in a fundamentalist household, although my parents had lots of Dr. Dobson's books and subscribed to his culture stuff.  My parents told me how babies were made when I was six.  Heck, my parents had copies of Joy of Sex and Our Bodies, Our Selves on the bookshelves, but I was well into my teen years before I made the connection that the sex I heard all about NOT having in our public school evangelism seminars (all purity culture all the time; having sex is like putting a bandaid on you and if you have sex with more than one person in your life, it won't work and will be disgusting) had anything to do with the mechanics of making babies.  And I was in college and had friends draw me a diagram before I really understood that there was more to sex than one position and mechanics and that it could exist for more than just procreative purposes.  I didn't date in high school, but I was afraid that I could have sex by accident and without realizing I had had it.  

And again....not a fundamentalist household.  Just one that answered questions only, and I didn't know enough to know what questions I needed to ask.  

[Danae]

9 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I fully believe you, I am just so curious as to what they thought they were doing and what they thought made babies?   Storks?   Getting pregnant requires some level of undress….
I probably would have been the same way if my parents had had their way.  I got enough between school and cable tv to puzzle it all out.  

I only talked to one woman about it in any detail.  She thought they were just “making out” and there was something beyond that that was “going all the way.”  I suspect her older boyfriend (she was 14 at the time) deliberately cultivated that idea.  

[Dmmetler]

4 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

I have to comment because I just have to. I had no idea about this docuseries (living under a rock maybe) but the first time I saw this thread I was excited because I thought the docuseries was going to be about REM. Every time I see the thread title, I hear Kate Pierson (of B-52s fame) singing "Shiny happy people holding hands".

 

I have not read the thread so if anyone else wrote about this I apologize but now I'm off to add Shiny Happy People to my Pandora playlist.

My mental picture was the Sesame Street Episode where REM was the special guest and they did "Shiny, Happy, Monsters". I might have bought the "Sounds of the Street" Sesame Street box set as my first purchase after having L, and made it my car playlist until...oh, age 7 or so....

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I remember.

We stopped going to homeschool conferences because “character training” was emphasized more than educational teaching. What had been a very lovely conference, complete with an entire track of SPED speakers, became all patriarchy and character training. 

The local homeschool groups began requiring you to sign a statement of faith.

A nearby city adopted “citizenship training” (IBLP inspired materials for promoting character building in communities).

We began to see more PACs funding candidates to promote certain agendas. 

The late 90s and early 2000s were when all of those wheels began to grind into gear.

 

This is ironic because lately I have been thinking my children do need more "character training," and I am on the verge of trying a complete Charlotte Mason approach to homeschooling.  There is an aspect of working on habits, and part of that is having good character.  But I also thought public schools worked on that.  I'm wondering what companies or who you saw gain an overreach on the conference?  The scary thing is a lot of the "surface level" stuff sounds good, but clearly, when you get into the IBLP and docuseries, it went way too far.  And it was horrible character.  😞  

[FreyaO]

Thank you to those who shared their experience. The series and this thread helped me finally understand Homeschool Recovery on Reddit. It terrified me and confused me, because I couldn't understand. 

I grew up in a country with Christianity as the official religion (my family never practiced, other than joining in cultural traditions, Christmas, weddings, funerals, etc). I used to think I have a basic understanding of Christianity, but these people must be reading a different Bible. As far as I can see there is nothing about helping your neighbor, sharing your second coat, etc. I did despise some of our religious extended family for their conservatism, but I also respected their community work. Which was lifelong and very, very discreet, if not secret. 

[Jaybee]

17 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

This is ironic because lately I have been thinking my children do need more "character training," and I am on the verge of trying a complete Charlotte Mason approach to homeschooling.  There is an aspect of working on habits, and part of that is having good character.  But I also thought public schools worked on that.  I'm wondering what companies or who you saw gain an overreach on the conference?  The scary thing is a lot of the "surface level" stuff sounds good, but clearly, when you get into the IBLP and docuseries, it went way too far.  And it was horrible character.  😞  

I actually used Charlotte Mason's book, Character, with my girls. I had read the whole reprinted series, but that one was so good and practical, and I found it beneficial for myself. So when they were in high school, we read it aloud on Sunday afternoons. Totally different from IBLP though. For instance, she talks about distracting children (what we now call redirecting) before they get into things, and about how to distract yourself from temptations as well. Another concept that I found so beneficial--under "generosity," she talks about being generous with others in your thoughts. For ex: when it is so easy to assume the worst of others (and assign motives), she encourages to assume the best, instead. (And I didn't take that in the way of sticking your head in the sand or being naive.)

Edited June 5, 2023 by Jaybee

[Ting Tang]

From Alex Harris

Amazon’s ‘Shiny Happy People’ Has Lessons to Teach, If We’re Willing to Listen (thegospelcoalition.org)

[Ting Tang]

5 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

I actually used Charlotte Mason's book, Character, with my girls. I had read the whole reprinted series, but that one was so good and practical, and I found it beneficial for myself. So when they were in high school, we read it aloud on Sunday afternoons. Totally different from IBLP though. For instance, she talks about distracting children (what we now call redirecting) before they get into things, and about how to distract yourself from temptations as well. Another concept that I found so beneficial--under "generosity," she talks about being generous with others in your thoughts. For ex: when it is so easy to assume the worst of others (and assign motives), she encourages to assume the best, instead. (And I didn't take that in the way of sticking your head in the sand or being naive.)

Thanks so much for sharing this!  I think for some of us, the reactions to the docuseries and what others are saying can be confusing, maybe even hurtful, because it's making some think everything is bad if you're trying to live your life and raise your children in a Christian (and conservative way).  But my idea of conservatism is a lot different from the Duggars'!  I think it is best for teens to abstain from sex.  I also wouldn't push two naive of age teens to get married and NOT kiss at all until the wedding day.  I just don't want my kids doing adult things too soon.  I feel like some are painting all of Christianity and conservatism a certain way.  

[Jaybee]

1 minute ago, Ting Tang said:

Thanks so much for sharing this!  I think for some of us, the reactions to the docuseries and what others are saying can be confusing, maybe even hurtful, because it's making some think everything is bad if you're trying to live your life and raise your children in a Christian (and conservative way).  But my idea of conservatism is a lot different from the Duggars'!  I think it is best for teens to abstain from sex.  I also wouldn't push two naive of age teens to get married and NOT kiss at all until the wedding day.  I just don't want my kids doing adult things too soon.  I feel like some are painting all of Christianity and conservatism a certain way.  

Mine are all adults now, but same. Education is important in our family, as are thinking and exploring ideas. Charlotte encourages imagination, a good background of interesting resources, helping children think for themselves, and loads of approaches to life that IBLP would not agree with (though they do not conflict with my own Christian beliefs). I didn't fully teach the Mason way, but I did incorporate lots of her principles. I think the IBLP staunch followers would find her too lenient and willing to allow children to be curious and ask questions, not only of authority figures, but of life. My own approach includes that I believe that God is okay with our questions, that He is not shocked or threatened by them. In fact, our curious minds were made by Him.

I don't mean to sidetrack the thread, yet I do think perhaps there is a place for these thoughts.

[bolt.]

10 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I think for some of us, the reactions to the docuseries and what others are saying can be confusing, maybe even hurtful, because it's making some think everything is bad if you're trying to live your life and raise your children in a Christian (and conservative way). [snip] I feel like some are painting all of Christianity and conservatism a certain way.  

I don't think many people in the general audience of a docuseries like this one have the kind of unnuanced thinking that would assign the actions/motives of this very specific organization to 'all of Christian conservatism'.

In fact, I just finished watching, and I don't think the words "Christian" or "conservative" were really mentioned. Possibly not at all. I don't even think they said "Jesus" (?) -- although many people spoke of God and the Bible.

It was really very clearly communicated that this was *one* corrupt organization, with one founder, and one headquarters building, etc. There was good focus on the actual problematic teachings (unconditional authority, for example), problematic behaviour (such as sexual misconduct and cover-ups), and nefarious purposes (like 'Joshua Generation' political activism).

I didn't sense even the slightest shading of the mood towards the possibility that ordinary Biblical teachings or generally being a churchgoing homeschooling Christian person being 'a problem'. If anything, the mood towards folks like that is, "Watch out, there's a predatory organization out to get you."

So, I can see why you might be worried about people painting with a wide brush. That can be really hurtful. But I think this doc has done a reasonable job of avoiding setting that tone itself, at least.

[Ting Tang]

Just now, bolt. said:

I don't think many people in the general audience of a docuseries like this one have the kind of unnuanced thinking that would assign the actions/motives of this very specific organization to 'all of Christian conservatism'.

In fact, I just finished watching, and I don't think the words "Christian" or "conservative" were really mentioned. Possibly not at all. I don't even think they said "Jesus" (?) -- although many people spoke of God and the Bible.

It was really very clearly communicated that this was *one* corrupt organization, with one founder, and one headquarters building, etc. There was good focus on the actual problematic teachings (unconditional authority, for example), problematic behaviour (such as sexual misconduct and cover-ups), and nefarious purposes (like 'Joshua Generation' political activism).

I didn't sense even the slightest shading of the mood towards the possibility that ordinary Biblical teachings or generally being a churchgoing homeschooling Christian person being 'a problem'. If anything, the mood towards folks like that is, "Watch out, there's a predatory organization out to get you."

So, I can see why you might be worried about people painting with a wide brush. That can be really hurtful. But I think this doc has done a reasonable job of avoiding setting that tone itself, at least.

I should clarify---I'm reading comments in various places other than here that I do feel point to this.  My faith isn't the strongest right now, also, which makes me prone to wondering what is right or wrong.  We do not go to church and haven't been in a very long time; we listen to Christian music, read the Bible, and we consider ourselves Christians.  Sometimes I wonder if my belief system is even "conservative," but I am not sure how else to describe it.  It's certainly not Duggar, and it is certainly not, "sure kids---have sex in my house!"  LOL    

[bolt.]

18 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I should clarify---I'm reading comments in various places other than here that I do feel point to this.  My faith isn't the strongest right now, also, which makes me prone to wondering what is right or wrong.  We do not go to church and haven't been in a very long time; we listen to Christian music, read the Bible, and we consider ourselves Christians.  Sometimes I wonder if my belief system is even "conservative," but I am not sure how else to describe it.  It's certainly not Duggar, and it is certainly not, "sure kids---have sex in my house!"  LOL    

In my opinion, if a person loves and trusts Jesus, they are a Christian. From what you describe you might like to identify as a "thoughtful Christian" -- because currently you are both pensive about your faith and also living your faith. And that can be a really beautiful thing to be.

Contrary to modern fixations, Christianity is foundationally all about how you answer the question, "What do you think and feel about Jesus?" -- not about one's opinions about all sorts of social issues.

[Ting Tang]

@bolt.  thank you so much!

[prairiewindmomma]

47 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

This is ironic because lately I have been thinking my children do need more "character training," and I am on the verge of trying a complete Charlotte Mason approach to homeschooling.  There is an aspect of working on habits, and part of that is having good character.  But I also thought public schools worked on that.  I'm wondering what companies or who you saw gain an overreach on the conference?  The scary thing is a lot of the "surface level" stuff sounds good, but clearly, when you get into the IBLP and docuseries, it went way too far.  And it was horrible character.  😞  

A few thoughts---because honestly, the topic of what is good, or of good character and how that relates to power and control and religion and who gets to define what is praiseworthy for someone other than self is truly worth years of deep and honest and sincere discussion and I have only a few minutes to post before I dive into our afternoon schoolwork:

1. There are, I think, some things that are defined as virtues. But there is danger in declaring those things to be black and white and inviolable. For example, I believe that the virtue of being honest is something to generally strive towards. However, when my grandmother with dementia asked why we were all in the hospital, answering her honestly with, "It's because grandpa had a life threatening stroke" would not have been loving or kind. She was not capable of remembering that for more than a few moments, and re-presenting her with that grief every few minutes was not a kindness.  Instead, I distracted her with ice cream in the cafeteria and dodged the question repeatedly.  This is a small vignette, but I think it points to the fact that one virtue (kindness and love) can sometimes triumph another (honesty).  These types of grey situations require nuance (and theory of the mind and other psychological concepts).  

This is a benign example, but I think there are places where it can go very wrong.

2. Intent matters, and power corrupts. Are we presenting virtues as an attempt to control others? All moral teachings do this, to some extent. We want to influence another's behavior.  How would we teach "modest dressing"? Is that solely an internal concept of self-worth or is that an external controlling? How do we teach modest dressing without also teaching shame? When we assign moral judgment to behaviors we are not only declaring a good, but also an evil. Does my wearing shorts really affect who I am as a person? Am I truly of less worth? Of less character? There are some who would say yes.  We all have things we approve or disapprove of. Let's assume that you eat meat, beef specifically.  You feel no religious judgment for doing so. Yet a Jain or Hindu or a Seventh Day Adventist would. These religious ideas are in conflict and as adamantly as you declare that you are correct in your views, another would declare that they are correct in theirs.  This can even happen within families right? Perhaps you only want your teens to watch G or PG movies, but your sister is fine letting her teens watch whatever they want. Different rules don't necessarily make someone "good" or "bad"---a lot of of things come down to personal preferences--yet when someone sets themselves up as definitively speaking for God, for everyone, in saying that they have been given authority (by whom, exactly(?)) to insert themselves in between God and myself to tell me what God has to say to me and what he approves or disapproves of, I think that is a very dangerous thing. It is the claiming of the power of salvation or of judgment.

In government, when someone claims that they are doing what God wants, they are claiming that their interpretation of God's will should be applied to everyone. That's a dangerous and powerful thing.

3. Control, money, and power are difficult to separate. Anyone seeking to sell you something in exchange for all three (religion) should be examined carefully. The overstep in the conference materials you asked about above was that someone sought to sell me salvation for a price---in exchange for buying their materials for money, in accepting their interpretation of God rather than me seeking my own from God through the Holy Ghost, and in my throwing support for their political ideas.

[Dmmetler]

I will also say-some of the comments are likely folks like me, who were not raised in IBLP, but got some of the same stuff at a lighter level-for me it was the focus on sexual purity and not causing others to sin and "Children, obey your parents in the Lord" that was largely driven by Focus on the Family's radio shows and magazines, from Adventures in Odyssey through Brio and Breakway. We were raised, not on "all music with a beat is satanic", but that CCM was better than secular music, and certainly that certain genres were satanic, that Metal was right out, that backward masking was a thing. I was the kid who went around the neighborhood handing out hand made magnets with scripture on them on Halloween (and hoping the neighbors would give candy out), who wasn't allowed books or movies with magic in them or to play D&D, except for those by Christian authors (which, in turn, lead to a deep love of fantasy, which I read at friend's houses and the public library with the same level of secrecy and feeling of transgressing that a kid did with Playboy) and who's life was school and church.  

 

This was all within a mainline, non-fundamentalist church and public school. Among my friends, I didn't remotely have the most conservative parents (that was reserved for some of my friends who went to the Mennonite school). I got a good education, and for the most part transitioned to adulthood reasonably well. I have had issues with the church, but for most part, those come from being treated badly as an adult, not as a kid.  

 

So watching the documentary was triggering when I hadn't expected it to be. Because I could so easily see that it could have been much worse...and much worse could have happened just from my parents attending the wrong workshop. And I recognized just how much my childhood faith was motivated by fear, not love, and how conservative sometimes turns into legalism. 

 

I am confident there are a lot of conservative, homeschooling families who are doing a great job. I've known many of them, and there are a ton on this board. But I will say that watching the doc also made me reflect on my homeschooling journey...and how much of it was motivated by fear. And it was a non-zero amount. 

 

 

 

 

[Kidlit]

Well said @Dmmetler

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

A few thoughts---because honestly, the topic of what is good, or of good character and how that relates to power and control and religion and who gets to define what is praiseworthy for someone other than self is truly worth years of deep and honest and sincere discussion and I have only a few minutes to post before I dive into our afternoon schoolwork:

1. There are, I think, some things that are defined as virtues. But there is danger in declaring those things to be black and white and inviolable.

 

I think Jesus himself taught this same idea, that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 

3 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

This was all within a mainline, non-fundamentalist church and public school.

 

I'm curious what denomination, if you are willing to share. I saw none of this in any mainline church I attended, but I totally believe it. 

I am listening to Jesus and John Wayne and an early revelation to me was how this idea of evangelical conservatism was a culture, NOT based in any particular church or theology. It was based in consumerism and marketing, not actual religion, so easy to spread via Christian bookstores and Christian radio, no church required. That made SO much sense to me!

[Dmmetler]

30 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I think Jesus himself taught this same idea, that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 

I'm curious what denomination, if you are willing to share. I saw none of this in any mainline church I attended, but I totally believe it. 

I am listening to Jesus and John Wayne and an early revelation to me was how this idea of evangelical conservatism was a culture, NOT based in any particular church or theology. It was based in consumerism and marketing, not actual religion, so easy to spread via Christian bookstores and Christian radio, no church required. That made SO much sense to me!

United Methodist, but did Caravan at a Nazarene church and went to Saturday night mass frequently. Plus the EMC radio channel, so a lot of Mennonite influence. And occasional interfaith events at the temple or mosque. And lots of books from the two Christian bookstores and the EMU campus bookstore and library. My mother was super ecumenical and adopted faith practices that made sense, was conservative personally while being very liberal politically, and I still think ,in a different day and time, would have made a great nun. She one told me that she’s glad homeschooling really wasn’t seen as the Christian thing to do yet in our area because she would have probably felt obligated to do so, and feels that she wouldn’t have been good at it-she really needed a community which was largely lacking for homeschoolers in the late 1970’s/early 1980’s. 
 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Dmmetler

[Dmmetler]

I'll also add-I KNOW my church had Dobson bible study groups that went through many of the books, and that we used "Preparing for Adolescence" in Sunday school in about 5th grade. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

12 hours ago, Calm37 said:

I watched the first episode last night. This series should come with a trigger warning for older homeschool moms! I lived through a lot of that stuff, including gathering the family to watch the show. My kids thought it was funny/weird, at the time. We knew a few large families that were similar in appearance, though not belief.

I am old enough to remember Bill Gothard being a big deal for EVERYBODY in the Chicago area for a year or two. Those big crowds you see him speaking to are some pretty normal people caught up in a "latest, greatest thing." Our large Chicago-area church had many hundreds of people attend the basic seminar. I remember my dad having the binders. I asked him about it a few years before he died. He said it was weird, legalism, not helpful, didn't last. 

I read the Pearls and received their newsletters. They were like roadkill in a lot of ways. I actually bought her marriage book! It had a lot of "do this or your husband will be a pervert" sort of advice. I rarely put a book in the paper recycling, but, yeah.

Anyone remember Above Rubies? That still comes in the mail every once in a while. Not weird, but still a sign of that time of life to me. 

Oh gosh........... 

 

Interesting.  I've lived in the Chicago area all my life and never heard of Bill Gothard before reading about him here in context of the Duggars and 19 Kids and Counting.  I homeschooled from the mid 90s to 2016.  I had no idea about his Chicago connection until I saw it in this series. But, then again, as a Catholic with very science minded kids, I wasn't welcome at the Christian homeschooling groups.  (People got up and walked away from me when I mentioned how much our kids enjoyed the dinosaur exhibits at the Field Museum of Natural History and I was shunned.)  

But I have to say I didn't seek out conservative Christians either.  In my early parenting days, a "friend" invited me to her church's Bible study.  Gary Ezzo ("Growing Kids God's Way)  and Dr. Dobson were huge at the time and they just gave me the ick!  Plus, I was looked down upon for my attachment-ish, non-punitive parenting style.  I got a lot of Chicago Evangelical version of "bless your heart" and I was seen as a project to convert.  

 

[Farrar]

I'm two episodes in. So far I've learned that the ATI materials had you actually circle the places on a woman where she had "problems." I knew about the weird animal lessons and a bunch of the other things like blanket training and no changing the diapers for boys and all that but some of the stuff about how they taught purity culture were new to me.

And... I learned that the thing about Xavier Roberts, creator of the Cabbage Patch Kid, being a satanist wizard came from Gothard! I had no idea. I grew up in north Georgia and every time we saw a white limo we wondered if it was him (he was rumored to have one) and I totally heard that about him being a satanist. My parents didn't ascribe to any of that stuff and I was raised Christian left, so I didn't get any of this stuff growing up, but other kids around me sometimes did.

[Harriet Vane]

35 minutes ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

Interesting.  I've lived in the Chicago area all my life and never heard of Bill Gothard before reading about him here in context of the Duggars and 19 Kids and Counting.  I homeschooled from the mid 90s to 2016.  I had no idea about his Chicago connection until I saw it in this series. But, then again, as a Catholic with very science minded kids, I wasn't welcome at the Christian homeschooling groups.  (People got up and walked away from me when I mentioned how much our kids enjoyed the dinosaur exhibits at the Field Museum of Natural History and I was shunned.)  

But I have to say I didn't seek out conservative Christians either.  In my early parenting days, a "friend" invited me to her church's Bible study.  Gary Ezzo ("Growing Kids God's Way)  and Dr. Dobson were huge at the time and they just gave me the ick!  Plus, I was looked down upon for my attachment-ish, non-punitive parenting style.  I got a lot of Chicago Evangelical version of "bless your heart" and I was seen as a project to convert.  

 

My kids and I loved the dinosaur exhibits at the Field Museum. While we never experienced judgment for our museum forays, there was a season that I did ask my kids not to discuss Harry Potter with their peers as I knew that would shut doors. I cannot say we experienced shunning, and I am sad to know that you did. I've always appreciated your perspective.

I had heard of Bill Gothard from someone riding on the train, of all places. This woman was so fervent in her praise of Gothard! I never followed up with it. I saw some materials here or there at homeschool conventions but kind of treated it much the same as the wheat-grinding, bread baking booths--in other words, generally curious to see it but not really a part of my world.

 

[wisdomandtreasures]

23 minutes ago, Farrar said:

And... I learned that the thing about Xavier Roberts, creator of the Cabbage Patch Kid, being a satanist wizard came from Gothard!

There was an ATI/IBLP newsletter in the late 80s and someone wrote in it that having a Cabbage Patch Doll in the home could cause a miscarriage. I wish I were joking.

Edit - Correction - Difficult labors. Not miscarriages. See: https://images.gawker.com/1289746095410496551/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg

Edited June 6, 2023 by wisdomandtreasures
My phone changed correction to currention lol

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, wisdomandtreasures said:

There was an ATI/IBLP newsletter in the late 80s and someone wrote in it that having a Cabbage Patch Doll in the home could cause a miscarriage. I wish I were joking.

Edit - Currention - Difficult labors. Not miscarriages. See: https://images.gawker.com/1289746095410496551/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg

That is nuts. I mean, in general, a lot of this stuff is stuff that if it weren't for the victims, I'd laugh because it's so absurd. My friends and I used to collect Chick Tracts and do silly dramatic readings of them in high school, and I think that's about where my head is on some of this. Except, as completely silly as it sounds, it was part of stuff that hurt all these people.

[Terabith]

I have a friend who grew up in the Gothard camp, being homeschooled with Wisdom booklets and all.  It was incredibly damaging to her.  She escaped when she got married, but I'm honestly not sure how that happened.  I assume her husband was originally part of the camp?  Maybe they deconstructed together.  She has a ton to say about all of this.

[MercyA]

28 minutes ago, wisdomandtreasures said:

There was an ATI/IBLP newsletter in the late 80s and someone wrote in it that having a Cabbage Patch Doll in the home could cause a miscarriage. I wish I were joking.

Edit - Correction - Difficult labors. Not miscarriages. See: https://images.gawker.com/1289746095410496551/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg

I feel sorry for the poor kids whose dolls got thrown out and burned. 😞

 

[TechWife]

I watched all of the episodes on Saturday. Does anyone else see the similarities between IBLP and Growing Kids God's Way? 

[teachermom2834]

While I never would have bought into the purity stuff or Cabbage Patch nonsense  I admit some of the child training and discipline are things that I saw surface elsewhere in materials or groups that were adjacent to this all I think. I feel familiar with a lot of that and I’m not even sure where from.

All I can really speak to on that is being very glad my kids were so darn feisty that they would not have complied with that strict training without so much of a fight that I would have known what I was doing was too much. Because I was a young mom without much support and I desperately wanted good children. I still consider myself strict and joke about being a law and order kind of mom but I didn’t have a kid that would have blanket trained without being seriously beaten. Thank God. If my kids were more compliant I might have thought those were amazing principles for first time obedience. I hope not but it is possible. If I had a weakness for this sort of thing it would have been a desire for obedient children. 

So for all the people who got fully caught up in the full Gothard cult there are probably so many more with significant trauma just from the bits they picked up without going all in. And lots of people have soft spots that can be exploited even if they aren’t ripe for full cult indoctrination.

[Farrar]

How much of an impact do folks think Gothard had on turning mainline Protestant churches in his direction? Obviously lots of smaller unaffiliated churches were involved and the entire Baptist world was infected with this nonsense. (Well, not the entire Baptist world -- I grew up Baptist, but my church was kicked out of the SBC when I was a young teen.) But how much do people think other denominations were impacted? When I look at mainline Protestant churches now, it feels like so many of them have dramatically lost membership and/or have turned toward a particularly right-wing ideology. American Christianity has long been pretty conservative along a number of lines, but there used to be more wiggle room and less open political talk in my experience. Do folks feel like the Gothardites themselves or just the Gothard model of having people attend seminars and then go back and sway their churches has been a part of this shift?

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

How much of an impact do folks think Gothard had on turning mainline Protestant churches in his direction? Obviously lots of smaller unaffiliated churches were involved and the entire Baptist world was infected with this nonsense. (Well, not the entire Baptist world -- I grew up Baptist, but my church was kicked out of the SBC when I was a young teen.) But how much do people think other denominations were impacted? When I look at mainline Protestant churches now, it feels like so many of them have dramatically lost membership and/or have turned toward a particularly right-wing ideology. American Christianity has long been pretty conservative along a number of lines, but there used to be more wiggle room and less open political talk in my experience. Do folks feel like the Gothardites themselves or just the Gothard model of having people attend seminars and then go back and sway their churches has been a part of this shift?

I think it's one of those things where the veins run so deep, it's hard to disentangle.

I see it more as: how much influence did Gothard (et al) have on peripheral Christian materials and how did those influence the churches? And I mean everything: conventions, seminars, homeschooling curriculum, those abominable Statements of Faith/group rules that are so focused on $*x and "modesty" that it runs through every part of it.......

Everything.

I still shudder thinking about the resurgence of Elsie Dinsmore that took place over a decade ago, where they were "acceptable" literature that taught godly values - or child abuse, grooming, pro-slavery, etc. in the name of obedience.  I came across one of the volumes at the thrift store yesterday that looked well read and I felt so sad for the child who was saddled with it.  But it's the little things like this, the little outliers that you wouldn't connect with Gothard until you realize the two are very compatible and promote the same thing - just in a friendlier way.  And these were the things that were absorbed into churches that didn't promote ATI or IBLP.

[mom2scouts]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

How much of an impact do folks think Gothard had on turning mainline Protestant churches in his direction? Obviously lots of smaller unaffiliated churches were involved and the entire Baptist world was infected with this nonsense. (Well, not the entire Baptist world -- I grew up Baptist, but my church was kicked out of the SBC when I was a young teen.) But how much do people think other denominations were impacted? When I look at mainline Protestant churches now, it feels like so many of them have dramatically lost membership and/or have turned toward a particularly right-wing ideology. American Christianity has long been pretty conservative along a number of lines, but there used to be more wiggle room and less open political talk in my experience. Do folks feel like the Gothardites themselves or just the Gothard model of having people attend seminars and then go back and sway their churches has been a part of this shift?

I grew up in the United Methodist Church (my parents weren't Christians and didn't attend) and I don't think I ever heard of Gothard until I was on this board, but I think some of his training leaked into other parenting groups. I did listen to Dr. Dobson some as a young mother, but I took some things and discarded others. I do think I was too hard on my oldest kids. One in particular was very active and strong-willed and I wish I hadn't been so hard on him. I didn't have a lot of support and my mom had been a teen mother with 3 kids by age 21 and also didn't have support, so there wasn't much positive mentoring. I watched the first two episodes of the documentary and I think the Pearls are some of the most evil people I've ever encountered. I think I was too hard on my kids because I did spank the oldest ones, but what the Pearls advocate is, ugh, just awful. Such vile people. Oh, and the man pretending to spank the little boy and then spanking him again because his hug wasn't good enough. I nearly threw up and wondered what kind of parents would volunteer their little boy for that demonstration.

The Duggars always creeped me out and I never watched their show, but I'm not at all surprised to hear all the things going on in that family.

Edited June 6, 2023 by mom2scouts
grammar error