Why do people say Kids/young people don’t want to work/expect free money???

[TexasProud]

10 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

For the most part, yes. But many students work their scholarship hours, which are paid in the form of their scholarship, not in a paycheck. They aren't technically part of the workforce.

I disagree.  All of daughter's friends are working  she is as well, and she gets a paycheck.  That is how the work study stuff gets paid. Scholarship is different.  Though one of her friends manages the social media account for the choirs and gets a scholarship for doing so.  Plus, all of these kids are working at a "regular" job in the summer.  So yeah, she gets paychecks.

[Starr]

I find the older folk I know, who hear this from their news source have no idea about the change in working conditions. They seem to think young people are turning down jobs with regular hours and a livable wage.

Most of the young adults I know worked at college as part of their scholarship.

[cintinative]

10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 

Our two eldest kids long distance commuted to campus, 

Unrelated to the thread, but if you have some input on this and have time to PM me, I would love to hear how this went. My kids will likely have to commute. 

[prairiewindmomma]

18 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

To follow up with a couple of comments...yes, we had planned to get a used car for our teen(s), but if we were willing to wait for a new car to come in (it took 6-8 weeks) then it cost around the same thing as a used one.  So, with better safety, gas milage, and a warranty, the new one was the better deal.  

But, about college...something has shifted over the past 20 years.  Lots of students had help from parents, or parents who paid for everything, but college was cheap and we lived a pretty bare-bones existence.  We had no TV for the first 2 years, lived in small dorm apartments (not singles) and cooked our own inexpensive food, many of us walked everywhere, etc.  I remember bartering - take me to the store and I'll fix dinner to pay for the gas money.  We did treat ourselves - dinner at a greasy spoon diner and a trip to the dollar theater.

I go on campuses now and it's a different world.  Students with Starbucks, restaurants everywhere, dining halls have really good, upscale food like made-to-order omelets...I can't figure out how they pay for it all.  It's almost like...well, I have so much in student loans, what's a hundred dollars a month in coffee?  I don't actually understand what is going on, but the contrast of 'cheap college and bare bones living' vs 'crazy expensive college with high end food and amenities' doesn't make sense to me.  There may be some reasonable explanation, but I wonder if people see students living a nicer lifestyle than they do, for things like eating out and alcohol costs, and then see students complaining about student debt, and feel like some young adults put the cart before the horse.  Not all students are doing this, clearly, but some students seem to be living the good life before they've earned the money to fund it (and without family who can pay for it for them).  This doesn't fit with most of the kids that I know, but friends who work on campuses see it and marvel.  

20 years ago, the average student could pay tuition by working a job during the summers and part-time during the year.

There's no way the average student can pay tuition and room and board here by working those same hours. Nor are student loans adequate to cover tuition (only parent PLUS loans are). 

The people at university now are largely those whose parents can either pay cash or are willing to co-sign. It's a different dynamic.

https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year

2002: $4046, minimum wage: $5.15/hr = 786 hours

2019 (most recent date on chart): $9349, minimum wage $7.25 = 1290 hours

[bookbard]

23 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I live in a major city in Canada, and I almost never see teen workers doing any kind of job at any time.

Opposite here. In our state in NSW there is no lower legal age for working. I see 14 year olds working a lot. I know 13 year olds working. Most of them at fast food places. There are massive work shortages in Australia at the moment and of course it's cheaper to hire younger people (in Australia there are different wages dependent on your age, up to 21). 

I don't know if I like it, honestly. I hope there isn't this expectation that kids have to step up just because there's shortages - do we really need a dozen fast food places in every town, plus cafes and so on? 

On the other hand both my husband and I spent our lives working in our family businesses and our kids do the same too - it seems normal. But that feels more like helping out, I don't know. We didn't get paid for it or anything. 

[TexasProud]

Yes, some people using this term are lazy.  And no, it by no means applies to all kids.

As someone mentioned, we have way too many fast food, dollar stores, etc.  Our economy is measured in growth and I have said for a really long time.  We need to be stable. Consumerism isn't good for the planet or our souls.

But yeah, my daughter has definitely seen it.  Not where she works in college, but at her summer job.  Second summer she worked there.  The teens were on their phones, not talking to customers, had to be told to do things instead of doing what needs to be done, ghosting shifts, etc. 

And as other posters mentioned it is a quality of life thing as well. Most of you are talking about minimum wage jobs, but let us look at doctors.  The doctors that are our age are pretty frustrated with crop coming out of residencies right now.  When we came to join a practice, we took a lower salary (though much higher than a residency salary) that was guaranteed.  Then "eat what you kill" after the first year. So we didn't have a salary for a couple of months. (Thankfully, we had continued to live on the resident salary and put the rest in the bank.) My husband took a lot of call.  Now the new docs want a guaranteed salary like you have been practicing for 10 years, all loans forgiven and they don't want to take call.  To do all of that isn't financial feasible for a practice.  Now that said, the call was probably unreasonable for my husband over the years, but the hospitals can't function without them. Hospitals are already losing so much money.  And many, like our children, will not choose the hours it takes to do the job.  I totally agree.  

 

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, Starr said:

I find the older folk I know, who hear this from their news source have no idea about the change in working conditions. They seem to think young people are turning down jobs with regular hours and a livable wage.

 

Because in their day a kid right out of high school could get a job at the factory in town or the mill, get married a couple of years later, buy a house, with a stay at home mom and 2 or so kids. I don't know if it's willful ignorance about modern life or just a condition of being aged, but boy a lot of older people have no stinkin clue.  They seem unaware that the factory they worked at with a good union job closed down 30+ years ago and was replaced with a couple of fast food joints.  

[Clemsondana]

14 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

20 years ago, the average student could pay tuition by working a job during the summers and part-time during the year.

There's no way the average student can pay tuition and room and board here by working those same hours. Nor are student loans adequate to cover tuition (only parent PLUS loans are). 

The people at university now are largely those whose parents can either pay cash or are willing to co-sign. It's a different dynamic.

https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college-by-year

2002: $4046, minimum wage: $5.15/hr = 786 hours

2019 (most recent date on chart): $9349, minimum wage $7.25 = 1290 hours

That's my point.  College was inexpensive 20 years ago so, in a sense, it didn't matter how it was paid for (scholarship, working students, parents) because it would all be paid for quickly either way.  But, nobody lived well.  Now middle class families struggle to pay tuition, yet those students still go to college and have debt.  So, where is the money to live well coming from?  The fraction of students who have wealthy parents can't be high enough to support what I'm seeing grow up around the campuses that I see on a regular basis.  The old 'Awful Waffle' places are being torn down to make room for nice restaurants and clothing stores.  Students aren't wearing jeans and the free Tshirts that they hand out at ball games and credit card sign-ups - they have nice clothes.  But, I wouldn't expect that such a high fraction of the students have enough money from family to support that.  I know that there are broke students doing the broke student lifestyle, but there are too many of the upscale ones to match how many I'd expect to have that much family money.  I can't imagine funding that sort of lifestyle for my kids.  I mean, I'd give the a coffeepot for Christmas, but I wouldn't pay off $100 of starbucks each month on a credit card.  

[KungFuPanda]

I think a lot of this attitude comes from business owners who don't want to pay a living wage.  There IS a labor shortage right now, but I doubt there is a shortage of applicants willing to work at a job that pays enough to live on today.  I have overheard more than one conversation between my boss and his cronies.  These guys are millionaires.  They "worked hard to get where they are" and were happy to just "work more hours at minimum wage" when they were starting out.  I get it.  They worked hard.  They made good business decisions.  They simply do not get that the game they played is mathematically impossible today.  They went to college by working summer jobs.  They bought land when it was cheap.  They had opportunities and privileges not everyone gets.  They never lost a single day of work because of a sick child.  They raise prices to protect profit margins, but keep wages so low that labor is a bit of a revolving door and they are heavily reliant on marginalized workers who have fewer choices.  The minute someone learns the trade, improves their English, and gets a little more experience and education they move up to a more desirable job.  THEN they are short on labor and tell ALL their customers that people don't want to work.  

I work part time.  I like the job and the customers are great.  However, the business model is a little sketchy.  Everyone who shares my job has another income stream to augment it.  One guy is retired, one lives with his parents, and I have a husband who makes a living wage.  This business is absolutely kept afloat by OTHER businesses with better pay/benefits and my boss is too close to retirement to bother changing anything. 

[Heartstrings]

23 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I wouldn't pay off $100 of starbucks each month on a credit card.  

Probably a different topic, but Starbucks or "Starbies" has become a lifestyle thing that I don't understand.  We have a very good income and I can't afford daily (or more!) Starbucks, I have no idea how people with half or less our income are affording it.  I don't mean it in a "just give up Starbucks and you'll magically have a $20k down payment"  I just mean that I don't get how its affordable or possible. 

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

I disagree.  All of daughter's friends are working  she is as well, and she gets a paycheck.  That is how the work study stuff gets paid. Scholarship is different.  Though one of her friends manages the social media account for the choirs and gets a scholarship for doing so.  Plus, all of these kids are working at a "regular" job in the summer.  So yeah, she gets paychecks.

I didn't say anything about work study programs. I was talking about scholarship programs. Both of mine received honors scholarships, which paid 100% of their tuition plus money for books, etc. They both got money exceeding the costs and were able to save it. They each had to work 5 hours per week while school was in session. The hours were considered "service hours." 

[bolt.]

31 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

That's my point.  College was inexpensive 20 years ago so, in a sense, it didn't matter how it was paid for (scholarship, working students, parents) because it would all be paid for quickly either way.  But, nobody lived well.  Now middle class families struggle to pay tuition, yet those students still go to college and have debt.  So, where is the money to live well coming from?  The fraction of students who have wealthy parents can't be high enough to support what I'm seeing grow up around the campuses that I see on a regular basis.  The old 'Awful Waffle' places are being torn down to make room for nice restaurants and clothing stores.  Students aren't wearing jeans and the free Tshirts that they hand out at ball games and credit card sign-ups - they have nice clothes.  But, I wouldn't expect that such a high fraction of the students have enough money from family to support that.  I know that there are broke students doing the broke student lifestyle, but there are too many of the upscale ones to match how many I'd expect to have that much family money.  I can't imagine funding that sort of lifestyle for my kids.  I mean, I'd give the a coffeepot for Christmas, but I wouldn't pay off $100 of starbucks each month on a credit card.  

I'm not that familiar with American college and or American student loan practices, but looking at my near-graduation daughter's future I can see that combining student loans (that 'pay for everything' including room and board) with any kind of income or parent support would result in some disposable income. Because all the basics are covered, so anything you earn or receive would automatically become spending money.

I also doubt that all the students have an everyday Starbucks habit. A busy Starbucks can serve 500 customers per day -- so even with multiple locations on campus, there are either a certain fraction of the students truly going each-and-every day, or a fluctuating fraction going less often as individuals. But it's not possible that one Starbucks location is serving all the students at a larger campus on a drink-per-day-everyday (or even $100 per month) basis. Maybe we see a lot of the cups, but for lots of students (like many of us) once a week is not that big of a vice, and can be quite affordable. (Especially when all of your other bills are being 'paid' by loans.)

For my kid, I expect to pay 'everything' with a combo of my money, scholarships, and loans... but I'll also give her a small-medium monthly stipend for transportation and incidentals. I really won't know if a lot of that money is ending up at starbucks. I guess it might. (But I don't expect her to buy a lot of 'nice clothes' -- she already has a good sized wardrobe, and she isn't growing any more. No need for free t-shirts!)

[Clemsondana]

4 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Probably a different topic, but Starbucks or "Starbies" has become a lifestyle thing that I don't understand.  We have a very good income and I can't afford daily (or more!) Starbucks, I have no idea how people with half or less our income are affording it.  I don't mean it in a "just give up Starbucks and you'll magically have a $20k down payment"  I just mean that I don't get how its affordable or possible. 

Yes!  Spouse gets it a couple of days some weeks.  The habit came from business trips - the per diem covered breakfast, which spouse doesn't usually eat, so the $ was used for coffee.  But, we know people who get it every day, sometimes more than once, and I'm at a loss.  The same with students - if it was a weekly treat, then so be it.  But, prof friends report students coming in with their daily coffee.  Likewise for meals - we'd get taco bell sometimes, they get daily chipotle.  It's an entirely different scale of food.  We used to love it because a roommate's parents, retired faculty, would take us out to Western Sizzler sometimes after church.  I think the Sizzler is gone, and the kind of places that we went for birthdays and anniversaries are now just where people go for lunch.  Faculty can do that if they want, but I don't see how students pull it off.  I saw some of it in grad school, though.  Some students got in the habit of going out every day for lunch and at some point realized that it wasn't sustainable on a stipend.  I packed leftovers for lunch and treated myself to one meal out each week, often carryout Chinese so I'd have leftovers.  I've often said that college life shouldn't be miserable, but it should be such that you look forward to graduating and moving on to something nicer.  If you start with what is on many campuses now...a middle class life isn't better.  Omelet bars are maybe a vacation thing, not every day life for most of us.  

[prairiewindmomma]

38 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

  But, nobody lived well.  

This wasn't my experience.

I went to a private university on a full ride scholarship for undergrad, and I was mostly surrounded by people who had grown up living very, very well. My own parents' circumstances were much more modest, and I really didn't know what I was stepping in to culture wise until I got there, because that information wasn't widely published. But, there were absolutely families who bought houses for their kids to live in while going to undergrad, who gave generous living allowances, and who connected their kids into summer internships with friends because that's how generational wealth and power strings are flexed.  Law school was a bit more diverse in terms of household income ranges, but there were still students who lived very comfortable lives there.

Nowadays there are a number of websites that post the average household income of the families of students at the university. Here's an article about some of the household income skew at Stanford: https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2021/02/16/faculty-want-know-stanford-letting-too-many-wealthy-students  

The Starbucks lifestyle kids are signaling their social power the same way that 20 years ago people spray tanned and got highlights, drove Range Rovers, and went to Cancun or Paris for a long weekend. It's a tribalistic cue to other wealthy families that they are like them and therefore appropriate to socialize with.

[Rosie_0801]

Dd15 wants to work, but doesn't because she's busy on week nights and the local supermarket she applied to for weekend work is one of two places in town that hires teens, so have their pick of over 16yo's. She will try again when she's 16. (The other place is fast food and the smell makes her sick.) I know one teen who got a job at 15 because he was so tall they thought he was 16, and they didn't figure out he wasn't until he'd had time to prove he was a good and reliable worker.

Dd's friends who want to work and don't live out of town without sufficient public transport and two working parents who can't be in two places at once.

The only young person I know who doesn't work because they don't want to, partly lives on their savings and partly bums off their parent. Young Person thinks they'll get another job when they run out of savings...

[WendyLady]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

On the topic of supporting college students: college has gotten much more expensive. And it may make more sense financially for the family to support the student so he can focus on classes to maintain the high GPA for their merit scholarship that is much more money than they could earn working a minimum wage job. 
We did not require our kids to work while in college; any jobs they took were related directly to their field and useful to build a strong resume. But we couldn't have paid for DS' school without his 20 k/year merit scholarship. That calculation was a no-brainer.

ETA: On the car issue: it makes more financial sense to get a not-so-old used car or even a new car that will last, as opposed to an overpriced junker that is unreliable and causes all kinds of issues a college student is ill-equipped to deal with. 

I’m intimately aware of rising college costs with having 4 kids go through college over the last 10+ years! I have two current undergrads and one starting a wildly expensive grad school in January!  It is impossible for summer jobs or campus jobs to cover any real college costs, and perhaps the realization that minimum wage jobs barely make a dent makes it less motivating to work? 
 

On the car- it made the best cost-sense for us to sell our teenage car and send him with no car! Because we didn’t want to have car problems in an older car with dad too far away to fix it!! But yes, used cars are expensive to buy and expensive to fix. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

.  I mean, I'd give the a coffeepot for Christmas, but I wouldn't pay off $100 of starbucks each month on a credit card.  

They use their meal plan card to pay. We were at our nearest private university for their open house. While waiting for the first session of talks, I went to buy myself a mocha from the Starbucks kiosk inside the dining hall. The student in front of me used his meal plan card to pay and his balance on the card was more than $1,100. I spent the bulk of my lunch money in engineering school on coffee back in the 90s but there were vending machines on campus to buy strong black coffee from for 40 cents a cup.
Nowadays even when we go to a state university, we are unlikely to find a coffee vending machine and would have to pay for Starbucks on campus or its equivalent.  Most times I try to remember to bring a liter of hot water in a flask, 480ml of coffee in a yeti rambler, and a box of single serve instant coffee packets. 

[Clarita]

My kids are too young to hold a real job. Although they do toy testing so they kind of do work sometimes. I don't want my kids working fast food or retail, ever. I'm sorry I knew too many teenagers who back in my day worked for places like Abercrombie. I'm not OK with having my kids be exploited or think that "that's what work is" to be working in such toxic environments.

[Farrar]

My kid made enough in his summer job to cover his expenses during the year for college. Not tuition or meal plan. But going out, new threads, books, chipping in for gas (he doesn't drive but apparently gf has a car), taking Ubers, getting Doordash sometimes, basic replacement of necessities like shampoo and so forth... We told him that was the goal - that he not cost us more than our total cost of attendance. So far, so good. I cannot imagine in a million years him paying for tuition. It would not be sustainable.

[teachermom2834]

@ClemsondanaWhile I totally agree with you about students living a lavish lifestyle part of the Starbucks and restaurant meals are all part of the room and board scam. Meal plans are wildly overpriced and students can often use their meal plan swipes at Starbucks or local restaurants either on campus or nearby campus. So those wildly expensive mandatory meal plans support expensive coffee habits. So parents are paying the bill for the mandatory meal plan or what seems like a reasonable meal plan and it is being used at those places a good amount of the time. Same goes for loans, scholarships, financial aid, etc that is being paid to the school, loaded on the student ID and then used at the local Chipotle and Starbucks. 
 

It’s all madness. 

[Corraleno]

26 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I'm sorry I knew too many teenagers who back in my day worked for places like Abercrombie. I'm not OK with having my kids be exploited or think that "that's what work is" to be working in such toxic environments.

My DD worked at a clothing store in the mall that's attached to a sister store that sells lingerie and nightgowns and stuff. Creepy guys would come in and ask her to help them choose sexy underwear for their wives or girlfriends. DD is a tiny thing, like 5' and 100 lbs, and yet every guy would swear she was exactly the same size as their wife/GF and would ask her to hold up lingerie in front of her so they could "see how it would look" on their GF. A decent manager would have protected the teen girls from that, but her manager encouraged it and tried to get the girls to use it as an "opportunity" to sell more stuff. The manager was a bully and DD never knew what days she'd be working or how many hours she'd have — one week they'd schedule her for two 3-hour shifts and that was it, and then the next week they'd schedule her for several 10 hr shifts where she'd be closing. Eventually she couldn't take it anymore and left — and I don't doubt that the manager is one of those people constantly complaining about "kids not wanting to work."

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Also, I'll just put out there as a college consultant for anyone who doesn't realize... most colleges LOVE kids who worked, especially at a job long term. Doesn't matter if it's Chick-fil-a or Dunkin Donuts or whatever. It shows reliability and responsibility in a way that many school activities do not.

I have said this several times to my college grad son, who does not have those jobs on his resume! He thinks perspective employers don’t care about the jobs he had in high school and college but I completely disagree because of exactly what you said here. His resume looks like he went to college and did a couple tech gigs and *that’s all*! It’s so inaccurate and bugs the stuffing out of me! 
 

In high school he had two jobs at once; one as a server and one as a building set up and maintenance crew at the school/church. I think that says A LOT about his character and he often did take-downs from events at the church until midnight or later on weekends. 
 

Next time I nag him about it, I’m telling him Ms. Farrar says he should put this experience on his resume, lol. 

[DawnM]

Well, I don't want to work and want free money, but so far that hasn't worked out in my favor, so instead I have to go to work and wait for a paycheck.   Sigh.

[Ting Tang]

I worked as a receptionist in high school and college in real estate offices.  I was well-respected and cherished.  Some Realtors gave me wonderful Christmas gifts.  My boss gave me a nice gift and a bottle of wine on my 21st birthday.  I was also involved in extracurricular activities. When things were quiet in the evening, I would do my homework.  I didn't make a ton of money, but I was happy and not too stressed.  

I think people who work as cashiers or in fast food have extremely difficult jobs.  But we need them.  I'm not sure how their employers treat them, and I suspect it varies, but I always treat them with kindness and respect.  They are NOT beneath me.  

[Farrar]

Yeah, my kid really lucked out by getting a great gig as support staff in a fancy restaurant. He had to wear a button shirt all summer. But they loved him. It was hard work, but they all gave him a card and an extra share of tips and a bunch of his favorite candy when he left for college. And he cleaned up. It was pretty impressive. I think a lot of teens just don't luck into jobs that great.

[Katy]

Because it’s easier to complain about lazy kids than it is to let in 5 million refugees and give them green cards? 

And because low-paying jobs tend to have less-competent managers who specifically schedule kids only on the days they cannot work.

[Shelydon]

Locally, teens and young adults do not want to work.  I live in a lower cost of living state, but in a HCOL part of that state.  The local public schools are very wealthy, only 2% receive free and reduced lunch.

Students here don't want to work because parents supply them with designer everything, $80,000 cars and all the extras they want.  Local eateries are desperate for part time employees, but the high school kids they hire consistently bail out of work if something fun comes up.  The colleges within an hour of my town are struggling to get students to show up to class.  Kids are failing out in droves.  I have two college students who both work. Their friends have racked up $100,000 in debt for degrees in psychology or poli sci. They did not work at all in college because fast food at $12-$14 per hour was 'too boring' and they just took out more loans.   The attitude is there because it exists.  Here is exists in spades.

[Farrar]

10 minutes ago, Shelydon said:

Locally, teens and young adults do not want to work.  I live in a lower cost of living state, but in a HCOL part of that state.  The local public schools are very wealthy, only 2% receive free and reduced lunch.

Students here don't want to work because parents supply them with designer everything, $80,000 cars and all the extras they want.  Local eateries are desperate for part time employees, but the high school kids they hire consistently bail out of work if something fun comes up.  The colleges within an hour of my town are struggling to get students to show up to class.  Kids are failing out in droves.  I have two college students who both work. Their friends have racked up $100,000 in debt for degrees in psychology or poli sci. They did not work at all in college because fast food at $12-$14 per hour was 'too boring' and they just took out more loans.   The attitude is there because it exists.  Here is exists in spades.

Undergrad students are literally not allowed to take out $100k in loans. That's way over the federal cap. If they're taking out that debt, they have parents who are co-signing. 

Statistically, teen employment is growing a great deal right now. There are always exceptions, but those exceptions have existed forever. I knew rich kids in high school who also were given expensive clothes and cars and didn't work. I assume most of us did. But the overall trend just isn't in line with those kids.

[MercyA]

7 hours ago, happi duck said:

I think it started being said by people who are against universal healthcare, expanding public school past 12th grade, raising minimum wage, unions for baristas etc, student debt forgiveness, decent paid leave/sick days etc.  A way to make treating people decently sound ridiculous.

I agree with you and my dad would agree with you. Even so, he was a grocery store manager for close to 50 years and he absolutely feels that many of the teens working for the store in the last decade or so have a poorer work ethic than previous generations. They don't listen to or follow instructions. They stand around talking when they are supposed to be working. They don't show up for shifts, lie about being sick, and expect to not work on Friday nights or whenever they have something better going on. The store has a hard time getting genuinely good part-time help. The best workers (according to my dad, and for whatever reasons) are the Amish, Hispanic, and homeschooled teens.

[bolt.]

6 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I agree with you and my dad would agree with you. Even so, he was a grocery store manager for close to 50 years and he absolutely feels that many of the teens working for the store in the last decade or so have a poorer work ethic than previous generations. They don't listen to or follow instructions. They stand around talking when they are supposed to be working. They don't show up for shifts, lie about being sick, and expect to not work on Friday nights or whenever they have something better going on. The store has a hard time getting genuinely good part-time help. The best workers (according to my dad, and for whatever reasons) are the Amish, Hispanic, and homeschooled teens.

I think a difference in "work ethic" is probably accurate. I think today's young people have largely divorced "work" from "ethics" -- and tend to regard employment as merely contractual. They don't think they are bad people if they aren't satisfactory workers. They are okay defining success in different ways. They don't mind occasionally not meeting expectations and dealing with the (usually minor) consequences of decisions like that in the workplace.

"Genuinely good" workers are the kind that go beyond the merely contractual expectations of employment -- but suddenly the onus is on workplaces to build that kind of goodwill towards a workplace, rather than expecting it to be automatically part of a person's personal values. That can be really hard to do as an employer when the work really is something menial and meaningless like retail work.

Workplaces obviously don't like that very much... but I'm not sure it's a bad thing. It certainly sounds healthier than the alternative. People shouldn't be reduced to tears and doubt their own inherent goodness if they missed their bus and might be late for a shift. They shouldn't experience legitimate fear that their boss might be 'mad'. And they shouldn't frequently just automatically lay down their own wellbeing for the good of just any employer who can sign a paycheck. I think they might actually have something there.

[kirstenhill]

I realize a serious discussion is being had here, but I just can't resist... do any of you follow this guy on Twitter? He has so many great threads with headlines/little snippets of articles through the decades with these kind of "sayings" that are said about people these days... "Kids are too soft", "people are lazy", "people have lost their sense of humor", "music isn't any good any more"...  and so on.  It's pretty hilarious how people have been basically saying them same thing forever.  😁  (And yes, this Twitter thread isn't just about kids working).  😁

 

[Farrar]

9 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

I realize a serious discussion is being had here, but I just can't resist... do any of you follow this guy on Twitter? He has so many great threads with headlines/little snippets of articles through the decades with these kind of "sayings" that are said about people these days... "Kids are too soft", "people are lazy", "people have lost their sense of humor", "music isn't any good any more"...  and so on.  It's pretty hilarious how people have been basically saying them same thing forever.  😁  (And yes, this Twitter thread isn't just about kids working).  😁

I'm pretty sure some scrawled that the kids are all lazy and refuse to work these days next to a **** on the walls in Pompeii. The idea that it's "new" that "people don't want to work" and "kids are lazy now" is such a joke.

[Shelydon]

35 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Undergrad students are literally not allowed to take out $100k in loans. That's way over the federal cap. If they're taking out that debt, they have parents who are co-signing. 

Statistically, teen employment is growing a great deal right now. There are always exceptions, but those exceptions have existed forever. I knew rich kids in high school who also were given expensive clothes and cars and didn't work. I assume most of us did. But the overall trend just isn't in line with those kids.

They take out federal plus private, and yes parents co-sign. 

The question was 'why does the idea that kids don't want to work exist"  I answered that.  I see it every single day. 

[Heartstrings]

35 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I agree with you and my dad would agree with you. Even so, he was a grocery store manager for close to 50 years and he absolutely feels that many of the teens working for the store in the last decade or so have a poorer work ethic than previous generations. They don't listen to or follow instructions. They stand around talking when they are supposed to be working. They don't show up for shifts, lie about being sick, and expect to not work on Friday nights or whenever they have something better going on. The store has a hard time getting genuinely good part-time help. The best workers (according to my dad, and for whatever reasons) are the Amish, Hispanic, and homeschooled teens.

Not directed at you, but this sentiment has been through out the thread.  You’re post just hit me right and got me thinking. 
 

Is this because the money offered is buying a “lesser” worker now?  Where a bit above minimum wage used to get you pretty OK workers, now the same money “buys” workers that would have been either min wage or unemployed period if the labor market wasn't so tight.  Really tight labor markets draw in people who weren’t employed previously.  Better workers have used their experience and recommendations to make a few bucks more an hour elsewhere and the same $8 an hour gets a less great employee.  
 

This is the labor market equivalent to switching from Lays to Great Value. I only want to spend $2.50, which used to get me Lays, but now Lays are $5 and GV is $2.50.  I can complain about the quality of GV or I can pony up more money and keep getting Lays.  
 

The labor markets work like a “market” with supply and demand and all of that fun stuff.  

Edited November 3, 2022 by Heartstrings

[itsheresomewhere]

One of our friends owns a specialized retail shop.  He is desperate for people to work as they are down to 3 10+ year employees and one employee under a year there.  He can not find people who want to show up for every shift. The pay is generous for the business.  The one guy called out the next day from a 4 hour training shift as he was “exhausted” from working.  The other guy had a different relative in the hospital every week and always on a Monday.  The college girl said it was too much work as she thought working in a pet shop that only sells food and deals with rescues would be easy.  She was often on the phone in the corner.  These types are what some are judging all on and it sucks.  

[Shelydon]

34 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I agree with you and my dad would agree with you. Even so, he was a grocery store manager for close to 50 years and he absolutely feels that many of the teens working for the store in the last decade or so have a poorer work ethic than previous generations. They don't listen to or follow instructions. They stand around talking when they are supposed to be working. They don't show up for shifts, lie about being sick, and expect to not work on Friday nights or whenever they have something better going on. The store has a hard time getting genuinely good part-time help. The best workers (according to my dad, and for whatever reasons) are the Amish, Hispanic, and homeschooled teens.

My homeschool group gets emails daily from places that are desperate for either volunteers or part or full time employees.  Homeschoolers in our area have a good reputation of being consistent workers.  The local grocery store hires homeschoolers and pays $20 an hour happily to do so.

[Corraleno]

I think part of the problem is that we are now reaping what we (as a culture) have sown for the last couple of decades in terms of attitudes towards "low-skilled" jobs. When I was a teen, working in a grocery store or retail or even fast food was a pretty normal job staffed by people of all ages. And they were local and well-known in the community, so people were friendly and treated them with respect, because Gus who was cleaning up aisle 6, or Iris the cashier at Kmart, lived down the street or went to your church. But we've spent the last couple of decades denigrating those kinds of jobs and basically telling our kids that low-paid "unskilled" jobs are for losers and immigrants, and unless kids want to be stuck asking "do you want fries with that" for the rest of their lives, they better get a college degree so they don't have to "lower" themselves by working those kinds of jobs. And over time managers and customers have picked up that attitude, too, making those jobs even less desirable because workers often get treated like barely-human servants from both sides. And now, after 20 or 30 years of denigrating "low-skilled" jobs and treating those workers worse and worse, with low pay and terrible schedules and few if any benefits, people are shocked that no one wants to do them, or they just want to show up, do the minimum, and clock out.

 

[Shelydon]

3 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

One of our friends owns a specialized retail shop.  He is desperate for people to work as they are down to 3 10+ year employees and one employee under a year there.  He can not find people who want to show up for every shift. The pay is generous for the business.  The one guy called out the next day from a 4 hour training shift as he was “exhausted” from working.  The other guy had a different relative in the hospital every week and always on a Monday.  The college girl said it was too much work as she thought working in a pet shop that only sells food and deals with rescues would be easy.  She was often on the phone in the corner.  These types are what some are judging all on and it sucks.  

I was recently at a conference and the resort breakfast was staffed by young adults.  The attendees could NOT get their attention to remove ear buds and take orders, refill drinks, check out etc.  It was crazy making.  No idea what their pay rate was. 

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, cintinative said:

Unrelated to the thread, but if you have some input on this and have time to PM me, I would love to hear how this went. My kids will likely have to commute. 

Sure. Send me an email with questions, and I will do my best to answer them.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Shelydon said:

Locally, teens and young adults do not want to work.  I live in a lower cost of living state, but in a HCOL part of that state.  The local public schools are very wealthy, only 2% receive free and reduced lunch.

Students here don't want to work because parents supply them with designer everything, $80,000 cars and all the extras they want.  Local eateries are desperate for part time employees, but the high school kids they hire consistently bail out of work if something fun comes up.  The colleges within an hour of my town are struggling to get students to show up to class.  Kids are failing out in droves.  I have two college students who both work. Their friends have racked up $100,000 in debt for degrees in psychology or poli sci. They did not work at all in college because fast food at $12-$14 per hour was 'too boring' and they just took out more loans.   The attitude is there because it exists.  Here is exists in spades.

I mean, if someone would buy me an $80k car and all the extras I want, I would also not work for $12 an hour. People work at local eateries because they need money, and that sounds like really bad pay for such an affluent area. McDonald's is paying that here, and my county is 76% free and reduced lunch.  A business doesn't have a 'right' to employees; if you can't attract and keep workers with what you're offering, it's probably not a viable business.               

It's frustrating for the managers when part-time, hourly workers bail for something fun. It's frustrating for the workers when managers send them home early because it's not busy enough, a very common practice. Managers who don't bail on their workers will have more workers who don't bail on them. 

And if mom and dad are that rich, $100k in loans is not that much in their world. It's only 125% of a car for them, lol. People with that kind of money can always get an entry level job in business. Kids with lower income tend to practical majors; rich kids study English. 

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I agree with you and my dad would agree with you. Even so, he was a grocery store manager for close to 50 years and he absolutely feels that many of the teens working for the store in the last decade or so have a poorer work ethic than previous generations. They don't listen to or follow instructions. They stand around talking when they are supposed to be working. They don't show up for shifts, lie about being sick, and expect to not work on Friday nights or whenever they have something better going on. The store has a hard time getting genuinely good part-time help. The best workers (according to my dad, and for whatever reasons) are the Amish, Hispanic, and homeschooled teens.

That doesn't strike me as agreeing with her, but I may have misunderstood @happi duck's post. 

1 hour ago, kirstenhill said:

I realize a serious discussion is being had here, but I just can't resist... do any of you follow this guy on Twitter? He has so many great threads with headlines/little snippets of articles through the decades with these kind of "sayings" that are said about people these days... "Kids are too soft", "people are lazy", "people have lost their sense of humor", "music isn't any good any more"...  and so on.  It's pretty hilarious how people have been basically saying them same thing forever.  😁  (And yes, this Twitter thread isn't just about kids working).  😁

 

Thank you! I was trying to find this to post. 

48 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think part of the problem is that we are now reaping what we (as a culture) have sown for the last couple of decades in terms of attitudes towards "low-skilled" jobs. <snip>

And now, after 20 or 30 years of denigrating "low-skilled" jobs and treating those workers worse and worse, with low pay and terrible schedules and few if any benefits, people are shocked that no one wants to do them, or they just want to show up, do the minimum, and clock out.

 

Truth. See: the high number of people who are absolutely pressed at the idea of someone making $15 an hour 'to flip burgers!'

I swear I see a flipping burgers reference every day of my life, served with much contempt. 

 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, itsheresomewhere said:

One of our friends owns a specialized retail shop.  He is desperate for people to work as they are down to 3 10+ year employees and one employee under a year there.  He can not find people who want to show up for every shift. The pay is generous for the business.  The one guy called out the next day from a 4 hour training shift as he was “exhausted” from working.  The other guy had a different relative in the hospital every week and always on a Monday.  The college girl said it was too much work as she thought working in a pet shop that only sells food and deals with rescues would be easy.  She was often on the phone in the corner.  These types are what some are judging all on and it sucks.  

"The pay is generous for the business."

Which translates into not competitive pay, right? It's a good job market right now. If you aren't paying the going rate, you cannot expect to hire the best workers. They are down the street, working for more money. He can't expect them to care what kind of business he has; why would they work for less than they can get? 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by katilac
spelling is hard

[itsheresomewhere]

11 minutes ago, katilac said:

"The pay is generous for the business."

Which translates into not competitive pay, right? It's a good job market right now. If you aren't paying the going rate, you cannot expect to hire the best workers. They are down the street, working for more money. He can't expect them to care what kind of business he has; why would they work for less than they can get? 

 

Nope.  The pay is generous and above what other pet places in the area are offering.  Saturday nights they close at 6 as he promised his wife 25 years ago to always have date night.  I would have loved that many years ago when I was young to always have Saturday nights off.  
 

I would be the first to say if it wasn’t competitive.  

Edited November 3, 2022 by itsheresomewhere

[Shelydon]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

I think part of the problem is that we are now reaping what we (as a culture) have sown for the last couple of decades in terms of attitudes towards "low-skilled" jobs. When I was a teen, working in a grocery store or retail or even fast food was a pretty normal job staffed by people of all ages. And they were local and well-known in the community, so people were friendly and treated them with respect, because Gus who was cleaning up aisle 6, or Iris the cashier at Kmart, lived down the street or went to your church. But we've spent the last couple of decades denigrating those kinds of jobs and basically telling our kids that low-paid "unskilled" jobs are for losers and immigrants, and unless kids want to be stuck asking "do you want fries with that" for the rest of their lives, they better get a college degree so they don't have to "lower" themselves by working those kinds of jobs. And over time managers and customers have picked up that attitude, too, making those jobs even less desirable because workers often get treated like barely-human servants from both sides. And now, after 20 or 30 years of denigrating "low-skilled" jobs and treating those workers worse and worse, with low pay and terrible schedules and few if any benefits, people are shocked that no one wants to do them, or they just want to show up, do the minimum, and clock out.

 

Totally agree with this! 

[Corraleno]

The CEO of a Texas company that does over $7 million a year in sales went viral last year for a tweet complaining that he couldn't find anyone willing to unload 35,000 pounds of cargo from a container for $14/hr (temp labor, no benefits, no continuing hours). Same guy went viral again a few weeks later when he tweeted that a $400K/yr salary wasn't even enough to make ends meet in a HCOL area, with a sample list of monthly expenses that included a $18K/mo mortgage payment, $2K/mo travel, and $5K/mo for food and entertainment. After complaining about all the lazy poor people who weren't lining up to do back-breaking labor for $14/hr. 

[J-rap]

We raised our kids in a small town (pop 5,000), and I'd say 2/3 of the kids there worked as teens.  Not year round necessarily, but as their school/extra curricular schedule would permit.  Employers worked around their schedules and kids seemed excited to have a job -- even if it was just a few hours/week -- to earn their own spending money.  My kids started working at age 14/15.  (That was a decade ago.) 

In college, my kids had part-time jobs that fit into their schedules.  They all had full-time jobs in the summers.  At some colleges, this seemed to be the norm, but at a couple colleges (both out of state) my kids were definitely in the minority.  I've heard that for science majors, trying to work part-time while going to school is almost impossible.  (None of my children were science majors!)  My ds went to college full time and worked full time which I didn't think was a good idea and I tried to persuade him against it, but it was his choice in the end.  

Anyway, wondering if town size/part of the country makes a difference.

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

I think a difference in "work ethic" is probably accurate. I think today's young people have largely divorced "work" from "ethics" -- and tend to regard employment as merely contractual. They don't think they are bad people if they aren't satisfactory workers. They are okay defining success in different ways. They don't mind occasionally not meeting expectations and dealing with the (usually minor) consequences of decisions like that in the workplace.

These are interesting thoughts. I'll just use one example. When teens in the grocery store stock the shelves, they are supposed to 1. check that they are putting the right product in the right place, 2. rotate the stock, moving the older stock forward and putting the newer stock in the back, and 3. arrange the labels of the products forward so they can be easily read. It's not complicated, but doing it in the wrong way can have plenty of consequences, from items and prices being mislabeled, to people not being able to find what they want, to wasting food that as been kept too long at the back of a display.

I would say it IS part a work contract to do the job correctly and satisfactorily, thereby meeting expectations. What else would they be getting paid for? If they don't want to work they shouldn't have applied for and taken the job in the first place. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by MercyA

[katilac]

45 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Nope.  The pay is generous and above what other pet places in the area are offering.  Saturday nights they close at 6 as he promised his wife 25 years ago to always have date night.  I would have loved that many years ago when I was young to always have Saturday nights off.  
 

I would be the first to say if it wasn’t competitive.  

"to what other pet places in the area are offering" 

That still sounds to me like it is not competitive pay. It needs to be compared to pay for the area in general, bc what does it matter to the hourly worker what type of business it is? 

I do think Saturday nights off are a good selling point for some people, and more businesses should be creative with hours and flexibility to attract workers. In this case, though, it's obviously not enough to counterbalance higher pay at other places. Getting off at 6 o'clock would not have been a big draw for me as a young person, because none of my friends were going out that early in the evening anyway. A lot of homeschool moms would be all about that Saturday shift, though! 

A robust job market may be a challenge for small businesses, but that's the way it is. Owners take the risks because owners yield the rewards. 

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Is this because the money offered is buying a “lesser” worker now?  Where a bit above minimum wage used to get you pretty OK workers, now the same money “buys” workers that would have been either min wage or unemployed period if the labor market wasn't so tight....The labor markets work like a “market” with supply and demand and all of that fun stuff.  

Maybe. The trouble is, a small town independent grocer has about a 1% profit margin in most of their departments; the customers don't pay much more for the food than the grocers do. It can be a difficult business to keep in the black. There is no money to pay workers more.

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

That doesn't strike me as agreeing with her, but I may have misunderstood @happi duck's post.

Sorry, I didn't express myself well. I meant: you can believe in all of the things happi duck listed (universal health care, a better minimum wage, unions, etc.) and still say "a lot of kids these days don't know how to / aren't willing to work." My dad does. He's an NPR listener, not a Fox news watcher. It's not just people of a particular political persuasion who think kids have become worse workers than they used to be. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by MercyA

[itsheresomewhere]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

"to what other pet places in the area are offering" 

That still sounds to me like it is not competitive pay. It needs to be compared to pay for the area in general, bc what does it matter to the hourly worker what type of business it is? 

I do think Saturday nights off are a good selling point for some people, and more businesses should be creative with hours and flexibility to attract workers. In this case, though, it's obviously not enough to counterbalance higher pay at other places. Getting off at 6 o'clock would not have been a big draw for me as a young person, because none of my friends were going out that early in the evening anyway. A lot of homeschool moms would be all about that Saturday shift, though! 

A robust job market may be a challenge for small businesses, but that's the way it is. Owners take the risks because owners yield the rewards. 

You will just have to take my word at generous pay.  It is above the local grocery stores, pet stores and retail here.  It is generous or I wouldn’t have said generous pay.