Accelerated math pathways in brick and mortar school.

[Drama Llama]

My youngest kid continues to say that he doesn't really like math, he just likes his math tutor.  However, he's also asking to attend summer school in math this summer so he can get "aheader" (sic), which seems suspiciously like something a child who likes math would ask for.  But what do I know?

I will say that him taking math in summer school would be convenient, from my perspective as a working parent who will have a kid who is too old for camp, and not old enough to legally work. 

Anyway, he's on track right now to take Precalculus in 9th grade.  At his school the options after that would be, non-AP calculus, Calc AB, Calc BC, AP Stats, AP Computer Science, and a one year class that combines Multivariable and Differential Calc.  His school requires math every year through grade 11, but our state flagship requires students to take math every year of high school, regardless of how many credits they come in with.  I also don't think the state flagship considers AP Comp. Sci to be a math class.   

There's also the possibility that he might move to public school, where the options would be the same, except 4 years would be required, and AP Comp Sci doesn't count.

I don't see him as a good candidate for homeschooling or online school while I work.

So, with those choices, what would an appropriate math path in high school be, and what would be the advantages and disadvantages of accelerating another year?  I worry about him burning out, and also that if he takes calc too early he won't remember it when he gets to college.  

If it makes a difference, he's been pretty clear for a few years that he wants to be an engineer, although the type varies.  

[LJPPKGFGSC]

How old is he now?

[Drama Llama]

7th grade/12 years old.

So, it's too late to slow things down at this point, because there's just one path through middle school.  

[regentrude]

If he does precalc in 9th, logical would be BC, stats, and multivariable in 10-12, provided the school doesn't insist on AB before BC. This all depends in the school. But that's 4 years even without AB, so I don't see what the problem is.

Would this be the accelerated sequence? I don't see any issues. Students don't  "forget" calc if they learned it properly. He can always choose to retake at college. It's way too early to worry about that.

CS isn't math and wouldn't have any bearing on his math sequence 

Edited October 10, 2022 by regentrude

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

7th grade/12 years old.

So, it's too late to slow things down at this point, because there's just one path through middle school.  

What math is he in right now?

[Drama Llama]

Just now, regentrude said:

If he does precalc in 9th, logical would be BC, stats, and multivariable in 10-12, provided the school doesn't insist on AB before BC. This all depends in the school. But that's 4 years even without AB, so I don't see what the problem is.

Would this be the accelerated sequence? I don't see any issues. Students don't  "forget" calc if they learned it properly. He can always choose to retake at college. It's way too early to worry about that.

No, if he takes summer school, then he'd presumably take BC in 9th.  That's the decision that needs to be made this year.  

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

No, if he takes summer school, then he'd presumably take BC in 9th.  That's the decision that needs to be made this year.  

I don't understand. You said precalc in 9th. What math is he in now, and what does summer school offer? I would not do a year's worth of math as summer school

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

I don't understand. You said precalc in 9th. What math is he in now, and what does summer school offer? I would not do a year's worth of math as summer school

He's currently in Algebra 2, in a school that does Algebra 2 before Geometry.  So, right now he's set to take Geometry in 8th, and then Precalc in 9th.  

He's asking to take Geometry in summer, and Precalc in 8th.  

[Terabith]

While I certainly wouldn't push a kid to accelerate that much, from the standpoint of having enough math to take in high school, I think it could work?  AP Stats is a good class, and I think there is benefit to hitting calc a few times.  I think AP Calc AB before BC wouldn't be a bad sequence even.  It seems like there are enough classes to take math all the way through and not lose anything.  

[Annie G]

I wouldn’t encourage trying to do a year long course as summer school. But I would try to find some enrichment-for instance, is there a university nearby that has summer programs for kids? 

[prairiewindmomma]

I don’t see any of what you suggest as being issues, and regardless of whatever he chooses, he has options. My oldest did dual enrollment once he topped out of the usual classes. If you aren’t wanting to push forward in calculus content in a couple of years, you can always spend time with tutors playing in number theory or in other topics that are fun, worthwhile, and not traditionally covered in US high schools. 

Algebra 2 in 7th is not particularly early. Usually for graduation purposes, they can count credits taken earlier if needed for diploma anyway. I wouldn’t worry about the graduation aspect.

If this is an area of interest for him, feed the interest. If this is something he feels anxious about because he is stewing in rat race pressure for premium academics, then that would be pause for more consideration. 

[Farrar]

I've seen kids on that path burnout, get to Calc BC, do mediocre or even poorly, realize math was never their thing, but now they're stuck with it because they have to take math all the way through the end of high school and the strongest students won't be taking things like AP CS A, which honestly is not math and it's silly that apparently the school lets you count it.

I'm not saying that'll be his path. I've also seen kids do really well and keep going with math. I just think I'd be mildly cautious about accelerating a kid like that. There's no rush. And the kids who seem happiest on the mathy path seem to have taken time out to go deeper instead of rushing full steam ahead and topping out on the highest math course that most college students need... in 9th grade. So not rushing would be my suggestion. He wants to do more math in summer? Great. AoPS Counting and Probability is a good option to go sideways.

Of course, some kids are going to be bored if they don't charge forward. Only you know for sure.

[Bambam]

I think I would look at this backwards - so
12th grade ? what math
11th grade ? what math
10th grade ? what math
9th grade ? what math
8th grade ? what math

I would eliminate the AP Comp Sci because that isn't generally regarded as a math, and it sounds like he needs to take 4 maths in high school. You want to make sure he doesn't run out of math options in high school, but you also don't want to overload him. I am assuming he is a talented math student. 

I have an engineering degree. The degree plans for engineering are set up to take classes in a very specific order since you have a fair number of pre and co-requisites. So, I would google possible colleges + X engineering degree plan flowchart.  Here in one sample (Note - this school uses Calculus, many schools are changing over to Engineering Math - I suspect maybe because some of the students aren't coming in fully grounded in math so this is their work around to make sure the students are fully grounded, but I could be wrong on this) - https://www.depts.ttu.edu/ece/undergrad/documents/2021EEflowchart.pdf
 

So note if he went in with credit for Calc 1 and Calc 2 and didn't have to repeat them, that leaves 4 credits (for 2 semesters) that he has to come up with some filler class (if there are any scholarships involved, some require you take 15 credit hours/semester, other only 12, and you want to stay at a full time student level anyway). So, if you have well planned in advance, maybe you can double major in Engineering and other useful/interesting thing.  But that would be hard to do because the course load in junior and senior years (plus looking for a job pre-graduation) is heavy. Now some students take easy classes to help their GPA, but if anyone looks at your transcript, that is pretty obvious. 

Some of the college Calculus (for engineers) seem to have a lab now for learning to use MatLab (and use it to solve some problems) - which may be a part of his entire college experience + job later.  They may tuck this in elsewhere too. So, if the high school does not emphasize that, I think that puts him at a potential slight disadvantage. To investigate that further, I'd contact a couple of possible colleges and talk to their Engineering departments to see their take on this. Contact several because different schools handle things differently. 

One of my kids went into college with 27 dc credits. Her chosen major does have those pre and co-requisites but in not engineering. The college counselors are not very good about choosing a good path through to minimum semesters at school, so we did it ahead of time, adjusting as the semesters went by. If he were to enter college with math credits, I would advise you not to trust the college counselor, but figure out, based on that engineering degree plan/flowchart - the best path for him. Small disadvantage in this is that you won't have a lot of the same kids in all your major classes (i.e. that first semester - there may be the same students in your Chem, Chem lab, Calc, and Intro to Engineering classes. Advantage if you are taking Calc 3 - you may make friends who can give you advice/help with those lower level classes because they have already completed them. 

ETA: I think Electrical Engineering is the most math-heavy Engineering program. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Bambam

[vonfirmath]

11 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

He's currently in Algebra 2, in a school that does Algebra 2 before Geometry.  So, right now he's set to take Geometry in 8th, and then Precalc in 9th.  

He's asking to take Geometry in summer, and Precalc in 8th.  

I took Geometry in summer school in high school -- and it ended up messing me up because I ran out of math to take in HS (I took Calculus BC and got a 5 in 11th grade but there was no higher math at the high school and my parents could not afford for me to go to the college to take math my senior year)

My son was on a similar path and the school recommended he take AP Stats BEFORE he took precalculus. So that is what he is doing this year (10th grade)

Your son is one year more accelerated. So you already need to figure out a math to do Senior year and I definitely would not accelerate one more year. (Even though I ended up being thankful I took Geometry in summer school because it was the math class  liked the least -- more about proofs than the type of math I enjoy)

 

ETA: I was a Computer Engineer in college. (Computer Science/Electrical Engineering double major) I should have backed up and taken at least Calculus 2 again in college despite getting a 5 on the test. I may even have done better going all the way back to Calculus i given I had no math at all my 12th grade year. I crashed and burn in Calculus 3 and never seemed to get back on track.  The HS math was not sufficient to handle math at a college level.

Edited October 10, 2022 by vonfirmath

[Katy]

I’d let him do it. Math is a gatekeeper for many careers that can earn a lot of money. 

[kirstenhill]

My DS15 was homeschooled through 8th and entered public school last year for 9th grade, but did a public school Geometry class as a part time student in 8th grade.  He also "doubled up" by finishing Algebra II at home that same year (he had done some of what was covered in a typical Alg 2 class in 7th while finishing AOPS intro to Algebra, so he only had a few topics left to cover in 8th).  He then was able to test out of the public school Alg 2 class and start PreCalc in 9th.   His purpose in doing so was to enter a three year Calc + other advanced topics sequence offered by a local university for accelerated middle/high school students that results in quite a few college credits of math.  Had he not gotten into the program, his plan had been to do Calc BC and a multivariable calc class offered by the high school, and then do further DE math his senior year (plus also doubling up and taking AP stats along the way).  My DS plans a double major in math and something else TBD, so he already knows he wants to enter college with quite a few math credits. 

If your DS is sure he wants to really focus on math, it seems like he could do DE math his senior year.  With so many online classes now, it seems like there is bound to be something he could take even if there isn't anything available locally.   I might even suggest doing stats in 9th, then starting the calc sequence.  Then he doesn't have to have a gap in his calc?  Maybe it isn't a big deal.  I can imagine myself forgetting if I had ever had a year between wo different calc classes, but maybe that won't be the case for someone who really loves math.  I took up through calc 3 in college but barely understood what I was doing any my grades got lower and lower each semester of calc.  My advanced math-loving kids got their math abilities much more from their dad than from me.  😁  I guess the main downside would be what would happen if your DS discovers along the way that he doesn't love math all that much after all or wants to pursue something that doesn't require all that much math - he then would still be stuck taking the DE math classes to meet requirements.

 

[Drama Llama]

At his school there is no DE option.  It might be an option if he moves to public, but I am not ready to make that decision.  

[Danae]

Just now, Baseballandhockey said:

At his school there is no DE option.  It might be an option if he moves to public, but I am not ready to make that decision.  

If he has finished all the math that they offer would they work with you/him to find an option?  Maybe do DE but call it an independent study supervised by one of their teachers?  Or just do a straight up independent study class?  I did that in high school . . . the math team coach supervised my class in “advanced topics” or something like that when I had a hole in my schedule.  

[gardenmom5]

I have an engineer with a MS. (and one who did a similar course of study)

Just make sure he has enough time in different levels of math to really master them and make sure there aren't any holes.  

 

 

[EKS]

My son took precalculus in 9th, BC in 10th, AP Stats (and AP Physics C) in 11th, and a post AP advanced statistics class(and AP Comp Sci) in 12th.  That was literally the only pathway at his school, and there were no kids in precalc before 9th grade.  He loved the two statistics classes though, so it worked out well for him.

If your son takes multivariable/differential equations in high school, he will most likely have to retake them in college.  That isn't the end of the world but something to keep in mind.

Edited October 10, 2022 by EKS

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

At his school there is no DE option.  It might be an option if he moves to public, but I am not ready to make that decision.  

So, two things to consider. One, if there's no DE, then he'll probably have to retake at least some math in college IF he ends up as a STEM major, which it sounds like is a strong possibility. That could be good (going to college and getting your "hard" classes like Calc II to be do-overs can free up mental load to adjust to college) or bad (redoing things is tedious for many people). Just something to consider.

Two, if the school is offering things like multivariable calc and not outsourcing to a CC, then that means they have students taking those classes, which means that in college admissions, he'll be compared to other kids taking those courses. This is so down the line and my statement about being cautious about math burnout still applies. But kids in admissions are evaluated on their context. A kid at a school where no one takes Calc II who takes Calc II outside the school looks stellar. A kid at a school where lots of students take Calc II because they accelerate lots of students on math looks... good. Because Calc II always looks really good. But not that good because they're up against all the other kids at their school, especially if they're applying to a hyper-competitive state flagship or even a highly rejective private in their state where lots of classmates will apply.

[Clemsondana]

Has he done AoPS Number Theory or C&P?  If not, rather than accelerate more I might consider having him try something outside the normal sequence.  I'm sure there are other things - those are just 2 that come to mind.  We took a year to do them in middle school because we were in a somewhat similar situation.  Kid was several years advanced in math, and I had concern that they would have to take really challenging college math in high school when they may not have any interest in a mathy career.  As it is kid is doing BC as a junior and then we'll DE senior year, choosing classes based on AP score (if kid gets a 5 we might suggest starting with Calc 3, but with anything lower we'll likely recommend starting with a repeat of the Calc 2 content).  

Stats is good content, and if we needed another high school math credit I'd consider it.  But, neither DE stats nor AP stats fulfill the engineering stats requirement at the colleges kid is considering, and kid doesn't think it sounds interesting enough to want to take stats twice.  

[Ali in OR]

I'll just say that we have far too many kids at our public high school where I teach who were over-accelerated and don't really have the skills we expect them to have for someone at their level. Differential calc kids who can't factor or who don't know the quadratic formula. I have a freshman Alg 2 student (yes, that's accelerated) with very, very weak Alg 1 skills. There's no award for finishing the fastest, but a strong possibility for not having the skills to succeed and instead burning out of math and needing special permission to count those middle school math classes just to graduate. And here summer school classes are for credit recovery only, not accelerating further. There's no way a summer school class matches what we do during a 36-week course. I would go deeper rather than faster. Take a summer class to go deeper, not to check off another box too early. Granted, we don't have as many opportunities as urban areas and I know there are kids who can go further, deeper, AND faster. We just see way too many who shouldn't have gone faster.

[catz]

If he doesn't have good DE/high school math options being this accelerated, I might encourage like a WIDE path.  Like maybe joining a math problem solving team or focus on some of those sequences with a tutor if he wants that.  ETA - the AoPS sequences are much deeper than average and might be good for self study.  I'd also consider WHY he wants to jump ahead when he says he doesn't love math?  Are you paying for a private tutor?  It's interesting to me he likes working with the tutor but says he doesn't like math?  I'd be curious about what he perceives the difference is in instruction.  Like maybe he does like problem solving?  Something like a math league or robotics club might be interesting to him?

I have a math (& CS) degree and math education is a thing that is important to me.  For a kid on a typical B&M path, there are disadvantages to burning through the math track earlier.  I also am concerned with how many schools take a pretty rote "easier" math track and just keep pushing kids ahead instead of going deep.  Obviously, I know nothing about what is available in your schools.  I think it's easy to lose your grounding if you have a break in math for a couple years and you need some to fill a college requirement.  It can also make some paths more difficult/less appealing if you've had that long break.  My kid had to retake some math at college and honestly, it was easy but college is an adjustment and he had other hard classes and I actually think it solidified his base to move up (and he's done well moving to some grad level math too).  He is a kid who hit algebra first at 10, but we ended up taking a very circuitous route through math.  Committing to a local accelerated math sequence through a local U was an option and DE was an option but both would interfere with extracurriculars he loved so we didn't choose those paths.  No regrets, still doing super well in a STEM path.  He is actually trying to cram in a math minor this year here as he graduates.  Just wanted to say it can be totally fine NOT choosing your most rigorous and/or accelerated option with a busy and multi interested kid and still able to excel at college.  Though I deep prioritize deep with him in particular (my 2nd kid is a good but reluctant math student).

We do have some good options for kids for summer at this age.  Like being a junior counselor for younger kid camps can be a good fit for a 13+.  My daughter has done some of that on and off since that age in an interest area. That might be another thing to consider too.  You might just search around a bit on this.  Maybe summer school is your easiest route to have him busy all summer.  But there may be other good options too.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by catz

[Storygirl]

I'm not a mathy person and don't have any kids who are advanced in math, but I have a question about the logistics of summer school.

Where we are, there is not an in-person summer school option. Instead, kids who want to advance in math over the summer take an online math class. Are you sure that there is an actual summer school class for him to go to? You said that taking an online class while you work is not a great option.

[gardenmom5]

40 minutes ago, Ali in OR said:

I'll just say that we have far too many kids at our public high school where I teach who were over-accelerated and don't really have the skills we expect them to have for someone at their level. Differential calc kids who can't factor or who don't know the quadratic formula. I have a freshman Alg 2 student (yes, that's accelerated) with very, very weak Alg 1 skills. There's no award for finishing the fastest, but a strong possibility for not having the skills to succeed and instead burning out of math and needing special permission to count those middle school math classes just to graduate. And here summer school classes are for credit recovery only, not accelerating further. There's no way a summer school class matches what we do during a 36-week course. I would go deeper rather than faster. Take a summer class to go deeper, not to check off another box too early. Granted, we don't have as many opportunities as urban areas and I know there are kids who can go further, deeper, AND faster. We just see way too many who shouldn't have gone faster.

this.

1ds had a weak math background, and eventually dropped out of math.  He was my only kid who didn't do calc. in high school.   He eventually did Kahn Academy, and realized just how many holes his math education had.  (2dd learned that the hard way.  1dd told her to start over with calc in college.  She wishes she had.) On KA, 1ds worked his way through from 1st grade math to testing into calc in five months (found all his holes and repaired them) - hence his comment there is no substitute for practice.  He did eventually get the foundation he was lacking, earned his degrees in engineering, and loves his job.

[Beth S]

Agreeing with other PPs.
All our kids ended up doing Calculus in homeschool high school . . . but then took Calc I as freshmen in college.
However, during high school, all of them circled back on concepts to strengthen their skills (each at different points).

I would wholeheartedly want to protect your son's semi-interest in Math, by reviewing/strengthening skills over the summer.
It seems like an online option would be ideal for scheduling flexibility.
But if you really want in-person, I would ask the public school for their summer options.
I'm sure they have LOTS of students catching up over the summer.

We ended up pursuing a private tutor, to help our son get his ACT Math score just 2 points higher.
But again, your son is still in middle school & should be "enjoying" his exposure to Math concepts at this point.

Lots of kids end up getting burned out over Math, as it is such a daily challenge to have a good attitude while being exposed to new concepts that are sometimes difficult to understand.  Review strengthens their Math muscles, & gives them more confidence.

ETA:  I hit a wall as a Senior in High School, and absolutely hated Calculus.
  I was very content majoring in Accounting in College, & did my college's in-house exams to test out of Calc 1 & 2.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Beth S

[Lecka]

Locally you must take 3 years of math during grades 9-12.

For people who are accelerated in middle school and then don’t want to be in high school, they have slowed-down classes.  My son went from Algebra II to Pre-Calculus, but there is an extra class offered between them, called Algebra III.  This is what my niece did when she decided she didn’t want math to be her big thing in high school.  There are other classes like this that aren’t on the main path but count as high school math.  
 

I don’t know how many people do that, I doubt I would be aware of it if my niece hadn’t done it.

 

 

[Lecka]

My son in high school also has younger students in his math and science class this year, and they all say their parents made them be advanced.  I don’t know how true that is, but my son says they all say it.  

[kokotg]

It seems like there are more negatives than positives to trying to fit in geometry over the summer: rushing through geometry, the shortage of post calc options at his high school, the reality that a lot of kids who've always been good math students hit a wall when they get to calculus (my husband's a calc teacher and sees this over and over again). If he's going into engineering, it could be helpful to get some of the intro math classes out of the way in high school, but it doesn't sound like he has any good ways to do that past calc anyway (taking a non DE multivariable calc would probably be good in that it would make repeating it in college easier and less stressful, but it sounds like he'll be able to do that anyway, as he's on track to finish calc before 11th grade no matter what). Tangentially, I'm interested in seeing where this trend of offering non-college credit higher math classes in high school goes. My husband teaches at a STEM magnet school, and he's hoping to teach linear algebra next year...I'm curious how many kids actually sign up for it when they're not getting DE or AP credit for it (there are state-funded DE options nearby, but the scheduling gets tricky I guess).

[kokotg]

47 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My son in high school also has younger students in his math and science class this year, and they all say their parents made them be advanced.  I don’t know how true that is, but my son says they all say it.  

I think that's very common, but it's also very common for kids to put a lot of pressure on themselves to accelerate because they know college admissions can be so rough these days...particularly for kids who are looking to get into selective STEM schools. I know that here tons of those kids want to get into Georgia Tech, because it's a great engineering school and it's very affordable if you're in-state, and it's increasingly hard to get into (close to impossible if you don't take calculus in high school). 

[Roadrunner]

Do AoPS over summer instead. 
Let school do their traditional courses and supplement with AoPS for depth (number theory, counting & prob). He will get so much more out of math education that way. 

[Arcadia]

19 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

My youngest kid continues to say that he doesn't really like math, he just likes his math tutor.  However, he's also asking to attend summer school in math this summer so he can get "aheader" (sic), which seems suspiciously like something a child who likes math would ask for.  But what do I know?

I will say that him taking math in summer school would be convenient, from my perspective as a working parent who will have a kid who is too old for camp, and not old enough to legally work. 
 

 I worry about him burning out, and also that if he takes calc too early he won't remember it when he gets to college.  
 

DS17 who does not want to major in math ask for and went to math camp for two weeks in 7th or 8th grade summer. He has finished the math that community college offers and just self studying math for his programming hobby.  
 

DS16 took AP Statistics as a buffer/break between precalculus and calculus. It worked out fine for him but we homeschool so he didn’t need to worry about how fast or slow he goes. 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

My son in high school also has younger students in his math and science class this year, and they all say their parents made them be advanced.  I don’t know how true that is, but my son says they all say it.  

I think this is often true.  There are plenty of pushy parents.

The year after DS2 died, when I was a grieving mess, and dealing with DH, and trying to hold on to my full time job, I found homeschooling really overwhelming. So, I arranged intensive math tutoring for my slightly dyscalculic oldest. And every day, my youngest came and sat with him and did the work too.  Because he was grieving, and scared, and lonely, and bored, and it was an opportunity to interact with someone who was kind, and distracting, and fun to be with.   He's a kid for whom math comes easily, so not surprisingly, he learned everything the tutor taught his brother, and more.  When he went back to school for sixth he ended up in Algebra 1.  It was an accident.  I swear I didn't push him. 

And that's where I'm torn.  I don't think there's a lot of benefit, for my particular kid and his particular school, to Calculus in 9th.  For other kids?  Or other situations? Yes, I'm sure there are benefits.  But for him?  I don't see it.  On his current track, he'll get AP Stats, AP BC, and multi/DE.  He'll probably need to repeat multi/DE in college, but he'll still be in a good place for an engineering degree.  And if he needs to slow down, he's got options that still look reasonable.  I don't see a benefit to going faster than that.  And if he needs to slow down, he can do  PreCalc/AB/BC/Stats or PreCalc/AB/BC or PreCalc/AB/Stats or PreCalc/BC/Stats and stop after 3 years, and all of those look decent for college.  If I was going to make the decision for him, I'd choose PreCalc in 9th. 

But, I'm not sure I want to be the one making the decision.  He's a kid who has earned my trust.  He's shown me that when I back off academically he figures things out.  So, part of me thinks that even though I share @Farrar's concern that he'll burn out, another part of me thinks I should trust him when he says this is what he wants, even though it seems kind of pointless to me.  

 

[Drama Llama]

8 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

ETA: I was a Computer Engineer in college. (Computer Science/Electrical Engineering double major) I should have backed up and taken at least Calculus 2 again in college despite getting a 5 on the test. I may even have done better going all the way back to Calculus i given I had no math at all my 12th grade year. I crashed and burn in Calculus 3 and never seemed to get back on track.  The HS math was not sufficient to handle math at a college level.

See, this is what I worry about.  That if he does BC/Stats/MultiDE or Stats/BC/MultiDE then he has a year with no math, or he needs to figure out a way to shoehorn in a college class on his own.  Is he going to be less well prepared, due to that year off, than he would be if he took Multi in 12th?  I don't know.  

[Dmmetler]

Unless your school does summer school geometry better than the one here, I would never suggest a strong math student take it. It's very get it done, no proofs, no physical constructions, and really isn't going to teach much of anything. AoPS at home would be a much better use of his time. If he really wants to accelerate, I'd see if he could do AoPS with a tutor and then test out of geometry. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Dmmetler

[Jaybee]

This is only a sideways comment, as I am not a math person and don't know much about the acceleration. Generally, I found I understood math concepts much better at a later date. I could do the work, but real understanding came later. But what I really wanted to say is that I loved geometry. I had the same teacher for Algebra 1, Geometry, and then Algebra 2, so it wasn't the teacher. I didn't care for algebra, but the logic of geometry and doing proofs was like a game. To reduce my favorite (and only liked) math class would be a travesty! J/k, really, but in general people seem to be either algebra people or geometry people, in my limited experience. Okay, carry on.

[Farrar]

With that added context, I'd raise with him all the issues we brought up here and let him decide. It's a lot for a kid that age, but I think you can simplify it:

You might decide you're not as into math as you are now and then you're out of classes to take, which could be a minor problem when applying to college.

Math can get harder as you go along and some people who love algebra hate geometry or calculus (or vice versa) so you should think about that.

There are other classes you could take this summer, like Counting and Probability that would let you try out some interesting new math concepts without getting ahead in school.

 

[Clarita]

22 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

My youngest kid continues to say that he doesn't really like math, he just likes his math tutor.  However, he's also asking to attend summer school in math this summer so he can get "aheader" (sic), which seems suspiciously like something a child who likes math would ask for. 

Does he know what he wants his high school math schedule to look like. I mean this sounds suspiciously like he's got a plan. This could also be a kid who realizes he needs math to do what he wants to do (engineering) but truncated/accelerated so it'd be over with faster or so he can take more interesting classes in high school. I wanted to take automotives in high school but alas with all the classes I "had" to take I couldn't fit it in.

[GoodGrief3]

I had a daughter who did precalc in 9th, followed by Calc AB (homeschooled), dual enrollment Calc 2 and 3, AP Stats (hs) and AP Comp Sci (hs). Her undergrad degree is elec engineering and is currently in a PhD BioMed engineering program (for background 🙂 )

Your son’s school seems to have a wonderful array of advanced options. We struggled here to find appropriate courses at the end, even at the local college, so that was a downside here. A potential downside (that did not materialize for my daughter) is finding a tutor capable of helping a high schooler with advanced coursework should trouble arise.

I also advise that your son review lower level math prior to the SAT, and definitely do a soph year SAT to see how the math goes. They can get surprisingly weak on the skills tested in the SAT.

All that said, I get the impression that getting ahead in math may be more about his innate competitive spirit than a real desire to know more math now? Which is fine, but there may be other things that could challenge him if that is the case.

[Arcadia]

44 minutes ago, Clarita said:

This could also be a kid who realizes he needs math to do what he wants to do (engineering) but truncated/accelerated so it'd be over with faster or so he can take more interesting classes in high school. 

Precalculus prerequisite tend to be a gatekeeper to physics so won’t be surprised if kid wants to get math done faster to get to physics. 

[vonfirmath]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Precalculus prerequisite tend to be a gatekeeper to physics so won’t be surprised if kid wants to get math done faster to get to physics. 

Watch the school on this. My son's school is requiring Biology AND Chemistry before taking physics.

 

[EKS]

10 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

My son's school is requiring Biology AND Chemistry before taking physics.

That's ridiculous.  If anything, it should be the other way around.  Physics, chemistry, biology--in that order.

(Yes, I understand the reason to do it the opposite way, but if the kid has the math, they should be able to do physics first.)

[Jaybee]

18 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

All that said, I get the impression that getting ahead in math may be more about his innate competitive spirit than a real desire to know more math now? Which is fine, but there may be other things that could challenge him if that is the case.

I wondered about this too.

[Drama Llama]

53 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

All that said, I get the impression that getting ahead in math may be more about his innate competitive spirit than a real desire to know more math now? Which is fine, but there may be other things that could challenge him if that is the case.

So, I do think he likes math, despite what he says, because he seeks it out a fair amount.   He always offers some non-math reason why he'd doing it.  "I was bored, there was nothing else to do", "My brother was doing HW and I wanted to keep him company", "I like the way it turns blue!". 

But if he wants to learn new or interesting math, then he has his tutor. 

I think the motivation to take a class is mostly about being the "top" math student in the school, both for short term bragging rights, and because he is surrounded by people obsessed with college, and so he wants to "win" the college admissions game.  

Another motivation is that he loves some specific kinds of art, and he's talked about wanting to study art in college along with engineering.  So, things that would free up credits so he can take more art classes, might make sense.  But I'm unclear whether taking higher level math in high school means you skip it in college, or just that it's easier when you encounter it there.  

[rebcoola]

Our experience is anything above pre calculus  in freshmen year won't be able to do a 4th year of math in high school.  ODD's school partners with a local university but their just aren't enough kids to offer past multivariate.

[Clarita]

18 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Another motivation is that he loves some specific kinds of art, and he's talked about wanting to study art in college along with engineering.  So, things that would free up credits so he can take more art classes, might make sense.  But I'm unclear whether taking higher level math in high school means you skip it in college, or just that it's easier when you encounter it there.  

In my experience, they only let you skip a certain amount. No matter how high of an AP score or what math was taken in high school you could only skip 2 quarters of Calculus (requirement was 6 quarters of Calculus for me an EE, some engineering had only 5 quarters instead).   Dual enrollment might be able to cover more ground in terms of classes skipped, but you have to be very careful in choosing the classes so that math actually counts towards the math you have to take for your major at your prospective school (matching description is sometimes not enough).

Anecdotally, looking back I wouldn't suggest anyone skip more than the 2 quarters, the first quarter of Calc in college is technically a review of the end of AP Calculus BC. The transition to college was HARD, going from not having to work hard to be an A/B student to working my bottom off and being a C student (feeling like a total failure). Of course the first two years are loaded with weeder courses so those were my hardest schooling years for sure.

[Katy]

In something math-heavy (engineering, physics), he may be required to take the classes again. But they’ll be easier. 

[EmilyGF]

My two oldest kids are doing precalculus in 9th, calculus BC in 10th, multivariable in 11th, and AP stats in 12th, with one or two AoPS classes thrown in on the side.

Both are taking CS simultaneously: Python in early high school, AP CS A in 11th, and CS through a local college in 12th (Web Design and Data Structures).

DS17 may take DiffEq through a college second semester this year. We'll see.

I am monitoring for signs of burnout and frustration, but both like math and continue to freely do math competitions. 

Emily

[kokotg]

On 10/10/2022 at 10:26 PM, Baseballandhockey said:

 

Another motivation is that he loves some specific kinds of art, and he's talked about wanting to study art in college along with engineering.  So, things that would free up credits so he can take more art classes, might make sense.  But I'm unclear whether taking higher level math in high school means you skip it in college, or just that it's easier when you encounter it there.  

My math major kid took linear algebra and "intro to logic, set theory, and proofs" DE after BC calc. He did get credit for linear algebra, but then he ended up as a teaching assistant in a linear algebra class and felt like taking it again at his college would have been a good idea. He could have made an argument that he should get discrete math credit for the proofs class, but he wanted to take it at his college, so he didn't. This was at a liberal arts college, not an engineering school.

Edited October 12, 2022 by kokotg