Wills, toxic parents, and the care of minor children

[Indigo Blue]

If you have toxic parents, did you make alternate plans for the care of your minor children in the case of you and your husband’s simultaneous passing?

We did, and thankfully it never had to come into play. We had a will that laid out our wishes for them. 
 

Just wondering if anyone else did this. 
 

I just couldn’t sleep at night.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[kbutton]

We have tried more than one arrangement over time and as the kids have aged and needs change.

Our attorney wanted plans three scenarios deep, so there are some non-family members named in addition to family members. When the kids were little, we actually didn't put the parents down (at least as first options) because we felt that was a lot to ask at the kids' ages. As they aged and have fewer intensive needs, we prioritized guardian options that will allow flexibility for what they will likely need vs. primarily looking for someone to be their family/nurturers (younger on is in high school, and the older one is now 18). I think (and hope) that the guardians we chose would find a way for my kids to stay where they are until they are finished with high school, etc. 

[scbusf]

Our plans had nothing to do with toxic parents. We prefer for our kids to be raised by my brother and SIL if something happens to both of us. 

[Anne]

Even if your parents aren't toxic, they might not be the best people to raise your children if you and your dh should die.  I love my grandchildren with every fibre of my being - but if there are good people available that are younger - they would be the best option for my grandchildren (insert broken-hearted emoji here), because we just don't have the energy that we had when we were actively raising children.  If there was no good option, I would absolutely take the children if that's what my kids wanted me to do - it would be hard, though.  😞

 

Anne

[J-rap]

We fortunately had very loving parents, but we still made sure to have a will with a specific directive.  Both my dh and I are the youngest in our families, so our parents were older, and we felt that younger guardians would be better all around.  (I'm sure my parents would have agreed, even though they certainly would have lovingly raised our children the best they could, if necessary.)

[73349]

I agree with PPs, age alone typically disqualifies the grandparents. We prefer someone our age or a little younger.

[Indigo Blue]

3 minutes ago, Anne said:

Even if your parents aren't toxic, they might not be the best people to raise your children if you and your dh should die.  I love my grandchildren with every fibre of my being - but if there are good people available that are younger - they would be the best option for my grandchildren (insert broken-hearted emoji here), because we just don't have the energy that we had when we were actively raising children.  If there was no good option, I would absolutely take the children if that's what my kids wanted me to do - it would be hard, though.  😞

 

Anne

Oh, I totally understand. We just wanted to ensure we never had to worry about that. 
 

That’s a hard thing to think about. I’m sure lots of people have plans for this whose families are healthy. I was just really curious if anyone else had done it specifically because they were terrified of their children being raised by their abusive parents. BUT I welcome ALL comments, too! 

[Spryte]

We never named our parents, either. It wasn’t appropriate for a variety of reasons.

We happen to have another person who would have been a logical choice, under normal circumstances, but we were firm that we did not want that person to be guardian. Our attorney helped us word a section in our will with regard to that person, to make it less painful for them to read later. Ostensibly. I don’t know if it would have helped that much. It’s been a while since I looked at it, but it said something about loving them very much but not wanting them to be guardian, and encouraging a relationship. Our attorney worded it well. I wonder if something like that might help with toxic grandparents?

[Anne]

Indigo, I applaud you for making a plan!  So many people don't - and the consequences can be so traumatic!!

 

Anne

[Indigo Blue]

If something were to have happened when our kids were young, my parents would have been healthy and young enough to have taken them then. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

We had it written out for them to go with my parents. DH's parents are the toxic ones but even if they weren't they are much older with very opposing values and religious beliefs. We knew that my parents wouldn't raise them exactly how we wished but we had far more confidence in them. Now we just have DS to worry about and if something happens to us he will go with oldest dd. I feel much better about this scenario. 

[73349]

8 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

If something were to have happened when our kids were young, my parents would have been healthy and young enough to have taken them then. 

The thing is, once they had them, they'd have them all the way up. A fair number of young people still need quite a bit of parenting even beyond age 18. So even someone who is doing fine when the kids are, say, early elementary-aged will not necessarily be a good match for the 15+ range a decade later. Ten years can be a lot of aging.

In our case, anyway, there was not a demonstrated level of parenting skill in the grandparents that would've made DS a great match with them. He needs Extra.

Edited September 1, 2022 by 73349

[Katy]

We picked one of our siblings & their spouse. Even if our parents had no toxic traits at all, they’re older & that sounds exhausting.

[Clemsondana]

Our kids would first be cared for by my parents, and then their uncle if my parents are not able.  I'm the back-up for a longtime friend from college - her parents were her first, but if they were unable one parent had no siblings and the other parent's sibling, while married, has always been adamant that they never wanted kids.  Friend's family, including the sibling who doesn't want kids, was all fine with us being the second - they've known us for many years and they've always treated us like family.  Thankfully we both now have teens so we are almost past the point where it is an issue...not that they no longer will need parenting once they are past 18, but a grandparent who couldn't manage a toddler every day, or an aunt/uncle who hadn't planned on having kids, are, at least in these cases, more than willing to advise and house and feed and otherwise help the relatively agreeable, well-behaved young adults these kids are looking like they will be.  

[Bootsie]

My father died before my children were born and DH's mother died when our first child was a few months old.  We never had grandparents named as guardians in our wills.  We had things rewritten as children became older and situations of potential guardians changed.  I do not know how anyone ever knows what will be the best for kids in case of a tragedy.  I know several situations in which the guardian named in the will was not who the children ended up with, either because the named person did not want or could not fulfill the request or because everyone involved in the situation believed that there was a better situation for the child at the time the tragedy occurred.  

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

everyone involved in the situation believed that there was a better situation for the child at the time the tragedy occurred.  

This is what keeps me up at night. We have grandparents that we feel strongly wouldn’t be a good place for our kids. The idea that if something happened to us, the courts or other family would go against our stated wishes and send them to people not on our list of options at all is distressing. I think those particular grandparents would likely jockey for them, so that worries me. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

13 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think those particular grandparents would likely jockey for them, so that worries me. 

We had the grandparents that we were worried about sign a statement acknowledging our wishes. They weren't happy, it made them angry, but they did it. 

[Arcadia]

This is confusing to me. If one of us pass, won’t the surviving parent have full custody anyway? So if both has passed, the court (California) decides despite guardians being named in the parents’ wills? 

https://www.courts.ca.gov/1215.htm?rdeLocaleAttr=en

”

Q: Can I name a guardian for my children?

 

A: Yes. You can write a letter naming a guardian for your children and keep it with your important papers or write in your will who you want to be the guardian of your children when you pass away.

But if both parents are dead, the court will decide who the guardian is. The court will try to appoint the person you wanted. But the court will consider what is best for your children and will ask the children what they want.

[Janeway]

Even without parents with problems, I would not likely leave my kids to my parents (both of mine are dead) just because I figure if I am dead, they are probably too old to raise the kids in to adulthood. I always have had a will in place and never left the kids to my parents and never considered it. However, I would expect that my parents would be allowed to see my children, which I would have put in writing if I ever thought that would become an issue. But I 100% trust the person I left the kids to. The person who is listed to inherit my children is not a relative at all. This is going to tick off my siblings, but it is what it is. I do not feel like any of my siblings are what I want to raise my children.

[Tap]

Yep! In fact we changed prospective guardians when that person became toxic also. LOL At the end, it was one of my xh's single, child-free friends who was going to be guardian of the kids. They were in their teens by then and there were enough assets and life insurance to fully fund a home large enough for all of them, college, and a good start in life for the kids. 

[TechWife]

Yes. We asked dh’s sister to be his guardian. We are getting ready to redo it and will be making decisions about how we want things to transfer & will ask our niece to manage any trusts that are in his name - his ABLE account being one of them. 

[Wheres Toto]

My oldest daughter would be guardian of her younger siblings if something happened to both of us.     They are currently 15, 17 and 28 so it's unlikely to be a big deal but there would be enough life insurance money to help.   Even though she was young when we set this up, she was willing and able if it became necessary.  She likely would have had help from our parents, but we didn't feel our parents were the ones who should have primary custody.

[Carrie12345]

We have to update our details yet again.
(One toxic parent, and a set of questionable ones very far away. I don’t want my kids to be moved out of state.)

One of our adult children was supposed to get legal custody, with verbally agreed upon people to be “the village” for both general and homeschool support.  But that adult child currently has a partner who isn’t allowed around our kids and I don’t trust with access to our money, so…

The flow chart I’m currently working on is stupidly complex and I hate it. So nothing is allowed to happen until we work it out. 😛 

[Bambam]

Not toxic parents but both sets of parents were too old to take care of young children. Other relatives were problematical as well.

So, we found two different families that we left comfortable leaving our kids with if we should both be killed, got their agreement, drew up a will.

Fortunately, both kids are adults and both DH and I are still alive.

But now we need to update that will! 

[Faith-manor]

Our children were never, at any time in their minority, going to either set of grandparents. As a matter of fact, not to any family members either. We asked a set of very trusted friends to take them, and we also were in their will for their children. We were both in the same boat of not being willing to subject our kids to some of the things we had suffered as kids or were worried about grandparent health.

Interestingly, my parents were livid that we didn't choose them even though when I was a child, the guardians set forth in their will were my godparents NOT any relatives.

Our kids are all adults now. But, one thing we haven't changed is that my eldest nephew is the executor of our estate in the event we both pass. He is so good at stuff like this, and our kids trust and love him. This takes a lot of pressure off them at a time when they will be grieving. We have it set so he can take a small salary from the estate for his efforts. He is in full agreement.

[skimomma]

Yes, we did.  But, our "toxic person" would very likely do everything possible to overturn that directive, so mostly "plan A" was to not both die.  We named very close friends and made them aware that they would likely have a legal battle on their hands.  They understood and agreed to fight should it come to that.  Luckily we made it past the finish line but we still have someone else named to manage the trust should we both pass.

[SKL]

My parents are not toxic, but they are not in a condition to parent my kids unless as a last resort.  They honestly couldn't even babysit much when my kids were little, and now it's all they can do to keep each other reasonably healthy.  Siblings have various levels of ability and interest, but they are also not the best people to raise my kids should I die.

I delayed doing a will because I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.  However, one day my kids expressed to me their preference should I die (I'm a solo parent), which happened to coincide with what I thought best for them.  So I finally put it in writing.

My kids' biggest consideration was continuity.  They didn't want to have to lose not only their mom, but also their house, school, friends, etc.  From my perspective, I think it would be a huge adjustment for my kids to become a "child" of someone in my biological family.  They are all just so different from what my kids are used to.  Having to switch schools wouldn't kill them, but they would also lose all their activities, and I don't think anyone would bother keeping them connected to friends.  On the other hand, hopefully I could trust the chosen guardians to make sure they have contacts with family.

Mostly I hope none of this will matter as my kids approach adulthood.  But of course nothing is guaranteed.

[marbel]

We never considered our any of our family members as potential guardians for our children. There was no toxicity involved; they were just not suitable guardians for various reasons. They would have agreed that they weren't the best choice, if it had ever come up.

We asked some very good friends to take on our children if we both died. We had a lot of life insurance at the time, so our kids would not be a financial burden to them. 

Our kids are past the age of needing a guardian, but recently I asked one of my adult nieces if she would take them under her wing if we died untimely and our adult kids needed help navigating life/house issues/all the stuff that comes along with parental death. Our siblings and one remaining parent are still not our choice even for this. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

One of our adult children was supposed to get legal custody, with verbally agreed upon people to be “the village” for both general and homeschool support.  But that adult child currently has a partner who isn’t allowed around our kids and I don’t trust with access to our money, so…

My parents have a similar issue with my brother’s wife. Her sister and spouse are gold diggers and she is easily persuaded. So my niece inheritance from my parents won’t go directly to my niece. We plan for my niece to come over to stay with me for community college if she wants to or my cousins would keep an eye if she wants to stay put. My brother is pro education but his wife isn’t so it is more of an issue if my brother pass untimely.
 

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

Yes, we did.  But, our "toxic person" would very likely do everything possible to overturn that directive, so mostly "plan A" was to not both die.  

Our toxic persons won’t put up a legal fight because they won’t spend money. They would just be really mean. In a way, I should be thankful legal age is 18 and not 21 where my husband and I are from. My parents didn’t name a guardian and if they have died early, I guess I would have been the de facto guardian to my only sibling who is 9 years younger. I guess it would make sense since I did my parents taxes at a young age and I am also the executor and trustee for their wills. 

54 minutes ago, marbel said:

We asked some very good friends to take on our children if we both died. We had a lot of life insurance at the time, so our kids would not be a financial burden to them. 

Our kids are past the age of needing a guardian, but recently I asked one of my adult nieces if she would take them under her wing if we died untimely and our adult kids needed help navigating life/house issues/all the stuff that comes along with parental death. 

We have a family friend with a spare bedroom and no kids who would take my kids in if we died untimely. Then our current home would just become a small passive rental income for the expenses. I should get everything down in writing so that there is no guesswork required.

[Anne]

The courts should never be able to overturn the directions in your will - UNLESS - there have been material changes in the potential guardian’s situation (and there’s a toxic person who wants to sue over it) OR the people you name are unavailable for whatever reason.    

Anne

[Murphy101]

On 8/31/2022 at 8:23 PM, KSera said:

This is what keeps me up at night. We have grandparents that we feel strongly wouldn’t be a good place for our kids. The idea that if something happened to us, the courts or other family would go against our stated wishes and send them to people not on our list of options at all is distressing. I think those particular grandparents would likely jockey for them, so that worries me. 

A will is not just saying what you want - you can also say what you do not want.  We have specifically stated in our will that we do not want anyone on my side to EVER have contact or be alone with with any of our children. Thankfully none of my children would even recognize my side of the family so that’s a major factor should the crazies decide that sharing genetic material with grandparents gives them any rights to my children.

But people need to get it in writing who the guardian of their children are and get signatures from the guardians too. I think more often than not people presume their guardian selections will step up and they often do not for lots of good reasons that they didn’t feel they could be honest about while the parents were alive and figured it would never happen anyways.

Think carefully about the people you have in your children’s life regularly bc it’s going to be hard to convince a judge that the grandparents that were a regular party of the family get togethers were so awful they should be denied guardianship. Especially as most judges are the ages of grandparents.  This is one of many factors to my severely limiting involvement of my side of the tree to nothing in my children’s lives. I saw that happen to someone when I was in my 20s with a couple toddlers and it scared the bedazzled Jesus out of me. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Murphy101

[Harriet Vane]

To keep everything crystal clear, we named our first choice guardians and also our second choice in case the first choice didn't work out. Both couples agreed willingly and happily to raise our children, so we knew that if our decisions were challenged, both of our designated guardians would do what it takes. We also added an addendum to our will spelling out why we chose the guardians we did and also why we didn't choose specific individuals. The explanatory addendum was to be kept super-secret and used only in the event of a legal challenge. The addendum was necessary because of unhappy family history, but not the sort of thing I ever wanted out there. Now that the kids are grown, the addendum has been destroyed.