Tell me this is not true…

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/25/missouri-school-district-reinstates-spanking?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=edit_2221&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1661410843

[Shoeless]

It's true. It's not uncommon here in the states, unfortunately. It's legal in 19 states.

I had to sign a form opting my son *out* of corporal punishment in kindy. The default was that the school could paddle him for misbehaving unless I said no.  My husband told me he got paddled in school often because he talked back. My ex also got paddled for being "mouthy". Different states.

[HomeAgain]

It's true.  The states who trail in education tend to also trail in understanding child development.  The two go hand in hand.

My oldest's school in TX had corporal punishment and touted it as one of their virtues.  He graduated just a few years ago.

[KungFuPanda]

Holy crap! I thought this was outlawed everywhere 20-30 years ago!

[DawnM]

Nope, still legal in North Carolina on the books.  I don't think it has been used anywhere for years, but it is not illegal.

[Dmmetler]

Still legal in TN, too, and one of the hidden side of charter schools is that while the big public district here banned it, many of the charters use it.

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Holy crap! I thought this was outlawed everywhere 20-30 years ago!

Nope. 

We opted out at my ds's school, but I told them straight up that it made them look like sadistic per#erts.  Spanking a high school girl because her uniform pants were too tight is downright creeptastic.  They claimed it was a uniform infraction and "distracting".  I would have to say that their principal acting like Stan ("Drank a fifth of vodka, dare me to drive?") and getting arrested at the gas station after a slow speed chase was more distracting to their academics than a growing girl in khakis.

 

 

[EKS]

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

It's legal in 19 states.

Here they are:

Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming

[SKL]

It's illegal in my state now, which, after seeing how irrational my kids' 1st grade teacher could be, is a good thing IMO.  Honestly though, I would rather they banned other punishments such as taking away recess from little kids.

[Soror]

And there will be plenty of parents that are thrilled with this change as they blame all that is wrong on the lack of "discipline". Schools both underreact and overreact. There is way too much control by the school and lack of autonomy even for older ages. 

[hshibley]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

It's illegal in my state now, which, after seeing how irrational my kids' 1st grade teacher could be, is a good thing IMO.  Honestly though, I would rather they banned other punishments such as taking away recess from little kids.

Taking away recess and silent lunch in elementary schools were the two most used and in my opinion the most overly harsh punishments. The kids were 7 and elementary school is a long day for them to begin with. 

[Kassia]

33 minutes ago, hshibley said:

Taking away recess and silent lunch in elementary schools were the two most used and in my opinion the most overly harsh punishments. The kids were 7 and elementary school is a long day for them to begin with. 

I agree.  I consider that abuse.  When my kids were in ps we fought those punishments hard.  No adult would be punished that way.  

[Kassia]

3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Holy crap! I thought this was outlawed everywhere 20-30 years ago!

I thought the same.  That is horrifying.

[EKS]

49 minutes ago, SKL said:

Honestly though, I would rather they banned other punishments such as taking away recess from little kids.

Or how about punishing the whole class when one kid does something wrong?

[skimomma]

Colorado?  Really?

[EKS]

1 minute ago, skimomma said:

Colorado?  Really?

That surprised me too.

[skimomma]

2 minutes ago, EKS said:

That surprised me too.

Yeah.  The others on the list did not surprise me at all.

[Miss Tick]

I read that list with my fingers crossed and eyes squinched and was relieved to see my state wasn't on there - but then I read it again more carefully. Oh. There were are. ☹️

[alisoncooks]

My state is on the legal list, but I can tell you that when I taught in the public school system (2001-2006) I would’ve been in *deep crap* if I’d resorted to corporal punishment. So legal…but still not common/allowed in my experience. 

[scholastica]

39 minutes ago, EKS said:

Or how about punishing the whole class when one kid does something wrong?

It’s against the Geneva Convention, so they’re  kinda sorta committing a war crime there.

[edelweiss]

Wow! I cannot believe that this is still going on in some places and now coming back in others.

When I was in middle school in Tampa, Florida in the 80s, paddling was routine. (I was shocked to discover this as I had moved from Ohio and it wasn't done where I lived there.) I ended up getting a "job" as a Dean's Assistant during the last class period of the day. Any paddling taking place that day would happen during the last class period. So, every day (and I really don't remember many, if any, days that I did not have to do this) I would have to take the little green Dean's slips to the appropriate classroom. I would hand them to the teacher and she would call out the name of the person who the dean was requesting to see. During last period, it meant 95% of the time that the student was going to get paddled. So, everyone knew why that person was being called down. The kids would sit in chairs lining the front of the dean's office and wait to be called into the dean's office. The dean would talk to them for a minute or two and then he would open the door and call his secretary (an elderly woman) in to the office to witness the paddling. The door would close and everyone in the main part of the office would hear the kid get smacked with the wooden paddle three times. The kid would walk out and the dean would call the next person in. Most days there were 3-5 kids getting paddled. Sometimes there were 8-10. 

I think that they ended the paddling punishment a few years later. I can't believe that some places are bringing it back!  The way Florida is going right now, I wouldn't be shocked if they brought it back to my old middle school. I feel like the whole world is going crazy most days.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

11 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

My state is on the legal list, but I can tell you that when I taught in the public school system (2001-2006) I would’ve been in *deep crap* if I’d resorted to corporal punishment. So legal…but still not common/allowed in my experience. 

I think we're in the same state, and . . yeah. The law may still be on the books, but to my knowledge it hasn't been done in a very long time. So I'd take that whole list with a big dose of salt.

[BusyMom5]

Honest question- what forms of discipline are appropriate for schools to use?  Kids are really out of control, teachers hands are tied. I think the root cause is poor parenting, but schools can't fix what happens at home.  

Teachers are leaving, and a big reason cited is bad behavior with no consequences from administration.   Teachers are at fault for kids refusing to do work- and cannot give zeros or fail students- even absent ones!  I planned to be a teacher and I'm so glad now that I didn't finish up and stayed home instead to raise my own kids, but our country is failing these kids!  It weighs on me.  

 

 

[Heartstrings]

Before we started homeschooling my son was paddled at school even though I had specifically opted out of that.  I didn’t find out for a week because the principal knew I had opted out but decided he knew better.  He specifically told me the behavior problems would go away if I just let him paddle my son more regularly. 

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

Honest question- what forms of discipline are appropriate for schools to use?  Kids are really out of control, teachers hands are tied. I think the root cause is poor parenting, but schools can't fix what happens at home.  

Teachers are leaving, and a big reason cited is bad behavior with no consequences from administration.   Teachers are at fault for kids refusing to do work- and cannot give zeros or fail students- even absent ones!  I planned to be a teacher and I'm so glad now that I didn't finish up and stayed home instead to raise my own kids, but our country is failing these kids!  It weighs on me.  

 

 

Instead of thinking about punishments we should be assessing why the kids are having a hard time.  Maybe it’s because expectations are developmentally inappropriate for the majority of kids.  Reading is supposed to be “gleaned” from exposure, not explicitly taught.  Kindergarteners are expected to write paragraphs with “voice” before many of them can read.  Schools are TERRIBLE at giving and following IEPs.  Many of the accommodations that are needed are just not available, like one on one aids for kids who are runners.  Not nearly enough teachers have received training on how to deal with traumatized children. 
 

Many of the behavior issues could be solved by figuring out the ways the school environment is causing the issues and fixing that.  Blaming children because adults are screwing up isn’t going to fix anything.  

[Heartstrings]

The biggest thing that would solve discipline issues is MORE RECESS.  They should go outside for 15-20 minutes every hour. 

[hshibley]

Once when my dd was in kindergarten she lost recess because she was not keeping her eyes on her book during free reading time. She wasn’t bothering anyone or talk etc. At that time she couldn’t read at all. It was over the top. I got a note sent home in addition to the punishment. This was the only time she was disciplined that year. This is pretty typical. A lot of the expectations for young students are inappropriate and the discipline is disproportionate. 

[Kassia]

53 minutes ago, edelweiss said:

 

When I was in middle school in Tampa, Florida in the 80s, paddling was routine.

 

 

I grew up in Miami, FL, and it was the same there from elementary through junior high.  I don't know about high school, but junior high went through 9th grade and no one thought anything of it because it happened regularly.  

 

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The biggest thing that would solve discipline issues is MORE RECESS.  They should go outside for 15-20 minutes every hour. 

Yes, yes, yes!  That's one thing that baffles me - educators are professionals and should know this because it's just common sense.  

It's so ironic that one of the top arguments against homeschooling (if not *the* top) is socialization, yet kids have silent lunches, no recess, no talking in line, heads on their desks for punishment, etc. - what kind of socialization is that?  

I also think that some discipline issues are due to high-stakes testing and the developmentally inappropriate expectations on students (as mentioned above).  Teachers and students are under so much pressure.

 

 

 

[Slache]

49 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

Honest question- what forms of discipline are appropriate for schools to use?  Kids are really out of control, teachers hands are tied. I think the root cause is poor parenting, but schools can't fix what happens at home.  

Teachers are leaving, and a big reason cited is bad behavior with no consequences from administration.   Teachers are at fault for kids refusing to do work- and cannot give zeros or fail students- even absent ones!  I planned to be a teacher and I'm so glad now that I didn't finish up and stayed home instead to raise my own kids, but our country is failing these kids!  It weighs on me.  

I could have written all of this.

 

We need more exercise and better diets. Free breakfast at school consisting of protein and produce, not sugar and cereal. Art and Music need to be reinstated and mandatory for all of K-8. That will fix 90% of the problems to begin with. 

As far as punishments go I like losing recess but replacing it with a second PE.

[scholastica]

41 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I grew up in Miami, FL, and it was the same there from elementary through junior high.  I don't know about high school, but junior high went through 9th grade and no one thought anything of it because it happened regularly.  

 

Yes, yes, yes!  That's one thing that baffles me - educators are professionals and should know this because it's just common sense.  

It's so ironic that one of the top arguments against homeschooling (if not *the* top) is socialization, yet kids have silent lunches, no recess, no talking in line, heads on their desks for punishment, etc. - what kind of socialization is that?  

I also think that some discipline issues are due to high-stakes testing and the developmentally inappropriate expectations on students (as mentioned above).  Teachers and students are under so much pressure.

 

 

 

They are being socialized to always follow rules, no matter how arbitrary. To police other people’s behavior in fear of your own punishment. To fit a mold.

[stephanier.1765]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

Or how about punishing the whole class when one kid does something wrong?

I can't even tell you how much I hate that. I still experienced the same visceral reaction I had as a child just reading this. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

I can't even tell you how much I hate that. I still experienced the same visceral reaction I had as a child just reading this. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

I feel like that sort of punishment is a sign of poor classroom management.  

[bluemongoose]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

The biggest thing that would solve discipline issues is MORE RECESS.  They should go outside for 15-20 minutes every hour. 

I absolutely agree that more recess needs to happen, however 15-20 min every hour would be a nightmare. It wouldn't even work in my homeschool. The disruptions and then trying to get them back into a lesson would take forever. Lots of kids have a hard time gaining focus ground and once they have that focus you really don't want to disrupt it. Other kids have a really hard time with transitions. That would make so many transitions! I think it makes a lot more sense to have things like wobble seats, standing desks, and fidgets to include more movement during lessons while also increasing the number of recesses. Just not as often as 15-20 min every hour. I think a kid should be able to handle an hour and a half to two hours or so and then get a 20-30 min break. Of course, the teacher can do stretch and wiggle breaks in the classroom too as needed.

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, bluemongoose said:

I absolutely agree that more recess needs to happen, however 15-20 min every hour would be a nightmare. It wouldn't even work in my homeschool. The disruptions and then trying to get them back into a lesson would take forever. Lots of kids have a hard time gaining focus ground and once they have that focus you really don't want to disrupt it. Other kids have a really hard time with transitions. That would make so many transitions! I think it makes a lot more sense to have things like wobble seats, standing desks, and fidgets to include more movement during lessons while also increasing the number of recesses. Just not as often as 15-20 min every hour. I think a kid should be able to handle an hour and a half to two hours or so and then get a 20-30 min break. Of course, the teacher can do stretch and wiggle breaks in the classroom too as needed.

They manage it in Finland and some other countries.   It would just take a paradigm shift in the US, which is unlikely to happen.  A break every 45-60 min is the advice given to adults and college students, so why would little kids need less? 
 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/how-finland-keeps-kids-focused/373544/

Edited August 25, 2022 by Heartstrings

[bluemongoose]

Interesting! I would really like to see this in action, especially with kids that have difficulty with transitions (I have a few of them). 

Edited to add: I am actually going to try this right now on my fifth grader. I am all for learning and being wrong about my own views! 🙂 I just set a 1 hour timer. Then I will send him off for a break and do that today and tomorrow and see how it goes. I would love to be wrong and have smoother days. He is my most challenging kid to teach!

Edited August 25, 2022 by bluemongoose

[Elizabeth86]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

The biggest thing that would solve discipline issues is MORE RECESS.  They should go outside for 15-20 minutes every hour. 

Truth!

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, bluemongoose said:

I absolutely agree that more recess needs to happen, however 15-20 min every hour would be a nightmare. It wouldn't even work in my homeschool. The disruptions and then trying to get them back into a lesson would take forever. Lots of kids have a hard time gaining focus ground and once they have that focus you really don't want to disrupt it. Other kids have a really hard time with transitions. That would make so many transitions! I think it makes a lot more sense to have things like wobble seats, standing desks, and fidgets to include more movement during lessons while also increasing the number of recesses. Just not as often as 15-20 min every hour. I think a kid should be able to handle an hour and a half to two hours or so and then get a 20-30 min break. Of course, the teacher can do stretch and wiggle breaks in the classroom too as needed.

I hate wobble seats and the like.  Movement should be incorporated into work, not in addition to work.  It splits the concentration in a lot of kids and they end up focusing more on the activity they're producing than the work they are learning.  Yes, more movement needs to happen, but it needs to assist the work given.

A break every hour is not unreasonable.  A child can only concentrate for so long at a time and needs time to relax their brain.  An hour and a half or two hours of concentration is directly against what science says a child can handle.

Other countries manage more frequent breaks.  Heck, when I was a kid we had first grade from 8:20-1:30.  During those hours we had two recesses, a 45 minute lunch, and a rotating special (p.e., library, music, art).  That's 5 hours with at least 1.25h devoted to free play and another 45 minutes that was usually directed activity.  It wasn't much more than an hour between free time, if that.

In contrast, the first grade I was in last year had 2 hours of language arts before a "break", where they sat at their desks, watched a 10 minute video, and ate a snack without talking.  Another 1.5 hours until a short lunch, sitting at their desk with 15 minutes outside.  Math for another 2 hours in the afternoon, and then a 30 minutes "special".

Recess is gone.  Children are suffering.  Wobble seats aren't going to fix the need to have downtime between learning periods.

[Harriet Vane]

13 minutes ago, bluemongoose said:

I absolutely agree that more recess needs to happen, however 15-20 min every hour would be a nightmare. It wouldn't even work in my homeschool. The disruptions and then trying to get them back into a lesson would take forever. Lots of kids have a hard time gaining focus ground and once they have that focus you really don't want to disrupt it. Other kids have a really hard time with transitions. That would make so many transitions! I think it makes a lot more sense to have things like wobble seats, standing desks, and fidgets to include more movement during lessons while also increasing the number of recesses. Just not as often as 15-20 min every hour. I think a kid should be able to handle an hour and a half to two hours or so and then get a 20-30 min break. Of course, the teacher can do stretch and wiggle breaks in the classroom too as needed.

I don't think the proposal is for a full recess every 15-20 minutes. The idea is that kids need movement and a break that often. 

My son was very much in this camp. He's completely neurotypical, but he's also a high-energy person. I used a timer when schooling him. He knew that as long as he worked diligently, he could stop working when the timer went off. This helped him enormously! Then as he grew older, he bargained with me to "save up" his minutes--if he completed an assignment with time to spare, he could save those extra minutes and get a super-long break later. In this way he effectively trained himself to work for longer periods.

My son really did take breaks 2-3 times an hour. They were very short breaks, but absolutely essential. It didn't take forever to re-engage either of my kids into their work. When it happens frequently, it's just a part of life and the routine sustains the transitions.

It was also essential for both my kids to be able to change the type of work they were doing frequently.

 

 

ETA--Realizing I misread the idea. It's not a break every 15-20 minutes, it's outside time once per hour. Yes, we did that, too. It probably worked out more like a longer break of about 15 minutes roughly every hour and a half for us.

 

 

Obviously there are varieties of personalities as well as kids who have special needs. But in general, frequent breaks are do-able and helpful.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Harriet Vane

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

The biggest thing that would solve discipline issues is MORE RECESS.  They should go outside for 15-20 minutes every hour. 

So much this. My elementary had three recesses per day plus PE twice per week and a nice, leisurely lunch period with homemade food. And my kindergarten classroom had a jungle gym. Most kids also played on the school playground before and after school while waiting for busses or school to start.

I think some schools have also successfully implemented school wide physical activity first thing in the morning before any academics begin.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Frances

[bluemongoose]

3 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I hate wobble seats and the like.  Movement should be incorporated into work, not in addition to work.  It splits the concentration in a lot of kids and they end up focusing more on the activity they're producing than the work they are learning.  Yes, more movement needs to happen, but it needs to assist the work given.

A break every hour is not unreasonable.  A child can only concentrate for so long at a time and needs time to relax their brain.  An hour and a half or two hours of concentration is directly against what science says a child can handle.

Other countries manage more frequent breaks.  Heck, when I was a kid we had first grade from 8:20-1:30.  During those hours we had two recesses, a 45 minute lunch, and a rotating special (p.e., library, music, art).  That's 5 hours with at least 1.25h devoted to free play and another 45 minutes that was usually directed activity.  It wasn't much more than an hour between free time, if that.

In contrast, the first grade I was in last year had 2 hours of language arts before a "break", where they sat at their desks, watched a 10 minute video, and ate a snack without talking.  Another 1.5 hours until a short lunch, sitting at their desk with 15 minutes outside.  Math for another 2 hours in the afternoon, and then a 30 minutes "special".

Recess is gone.  Children are suffering.  Wobble seats aren't going to fix the need to have downtime between learning periods.

I know recess is gone and children are suffering. I do not disagree with that at all. I also agree that wobble seats do not fix lack of downtime. I do think they help the kids who cannot sit still AT ALL no matter how many breaks you give them. I use one with my 5th grader. It is the stool kind that the base isn't flat. On a regular chair he just fell out of the seat or ended up standing on it. With the wobble seat he can move and that helps him focus and also not break his focus by falling out of the chair. I realize that is not needed for many people. That is ok too. 

[bluemongoose]

6 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

I don't think the proposal is for a full recess every 15-20 minutes. The idea is that kids need movement and a break that often. 

My son was very much in this camp. He's completely neurotypical, but he's also a high-energy person. I used a timer when schooling him. He knew that as long as he worked diligently, he could stop working when the timer went off. This helped him enormously! Then as he grew older, he bargained with me to "save up" his minutes--if he completed an assignment with time to spare, he could save those extra minutes and get a super-long break later. In this way he effectively trained himself to work for longer periods.

My son really did take breaks 2-3 times an hour. They were very short breaks, but absolutely essential. It didn't take forever to re-engage either of my kids into their work. When it happens frequently, it's just a part of life and the routine sustains the transitions.

It was also essential for both my kids to be able to change the type of work they were doing frequently.

Obviously there are varieties of personalities as well as kids who have special needs. But in general, frequent breaks are do-able and helpful.

I think that is what I was misunderstanding. I didn't see how a full recess that often was going to help get school on track. How would that work? But yes, wiggle breaks, more movement, stop pinning kids to constant seatwork, do take recesses (rather than no recesses at all) etc. I am intrigued by the Finnish school 10 min break every 45-60 min or so. I am going to try it. Usually, I have little mini breaks between each time we switch between books (which is every 25 min or so). By mini break I mean just a few min to get up, sharpen a pencil, find the right book, grab a drink of water, etc. I am not an ogre who doesn't give breaks. But I do work like this for a concentrated 1.5 hours or so before a real 15-20 min break. 

[bluemongoose]

14 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

 

 

 

ETA--Realizing I misread the idea. It's not a break every 15-20 minutes, it's outside time once per hour. Yes, we did that, too. It probably worked out more like a longer break of about 15 minutes roughly every hour and a half for us.

 

 

 

This is what I was thinking. Working for 1.5 hours (not necessarily strict seat time, but actively doing something for most of that time) and then a recess. So mini breaks in a 1.5 hour time frame and then a bigger break. Lots of movement while also learning. But today I am going to try the 60 min mark instead and do 10 min breaks and see how that goes. I am all for shifting if it works better. 

[Heartstrings]

I’m not sure what is meant by a “full recess” but the article describes Finnish schools as sending children outside to do whatever they want every 45 minutes or so for 10-15 minutes.  That’s more than just stretches at their desk.  The articles talks about the autonomy being as important as the physical activity.  

Edited August 25, 2022 by Heartstrings

[regentrude]

Yes to more breaks. In German schools, periods are 45 minutes. After that, either a 10 minute break, then a longer 15-20 minute break after the 2nd period during which kids can eat, drink, use the bathroom, wander around; a 25 minute break mid-morning for outdoor recess; another 25 minute break for outdoor recess later in the day. 

Also: shorter school days. seatwork from 8-3 is not developmentally appropriate for elementary school kids. You can't cram that much academics into them - they are "full" around midday. Back home, elementary ends after 4th period; kids are home by lunchtime (or go to afterschool care of no adult is home).

I have not seen any evidence that the long school day in this country translates into more learning. 

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m not sure what is meant by a “full recess” but the article describes Finnish schools as sending children outside to whatever they want every 45 minutes or so for 10-15 minutes.  That’s more than just stretches at their desk.  The articles talks about the autonomy being as important as the physical activity.  

Yes to autonomy. In her US school, my DD's 6th grade class went to the bathroom as a collective. That is ridiculous.
Back home in Germany, kids have breaks after each 45 minute period during which they have autonomy to fulfill their bodies' needs - eat, drink, bathroom - without a teacher leading the toilet line. My DS was shocked when we spent a year overseas that the kids were allowed to just do that.

The amount of non-stop close supervision creates a prison-like atmosphere in schools that I find deeply harmful for the kids' development. And don't get me started on windowless classrooms which would not be permitted in many other countries.

Edited August 25, 2022 by regentrude

[Soror]

16 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m not sure what is meant by a “full recess” but the article describes Finnish schools as sending children outside to do whatever they want every 45 minutes or so for 10-15 minutes.  That’s more than just stretches at their desk.  The articles talks about the autonomy being as important as the physical activity.  

 

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Yes to autonomy. In her US school, my DD's 6th grade class went to the bathroom as a collective. That is ridiculous.
Back home in Germany, kids have breaks after each 45 minute period during which they have autonomy to fulfill their bodies' needs - eat, drink, bathroom - without a teacher leading the toilet line. My DS was shocked when we spent a year overseas that the kids were allowed to just do that.

The amount of non-stop close supervision creates a prison-like atmosphere in schools that I find deeply harmful for the kids' development. And don't get me started on windowless classrooms which would not be permitted in many other countries.

The lack of autonomy bothered me in school and it is so much worse now (why I mentioned it up thread). Daughter was not allowed to carry her own asthma inhaler. Or even carry otc meds. Required to go to a nurse but then they are only allowed to give Tums even if you sign otherwise, unless you get a doctor's signature they can't give otc meds. I've told mine take whatever they need with them and be discreet. By the time they get to Jr high-7 they can go to the bathroom but all grades below that they can only rarely go. It was a big deal for DD as she was constantly having to hold her pee or not drink and the teachers defend these practices. We gripe about kids not taking responsibility and control everything they do.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Soror said:

 

The lack of autonomy bothered me in school and it is so much worse now (why I mentioned it up thread). Daughter was not allowed to carry her own asthma inhaler. Or even carry otc meds. Required to go to a nurse but then they are only allowed to give Tums even if you sign otherwise, unless you get a doctor's signature they can't give otc meds. I've told mine take whatever they need with them and be discreet. By the time they get to Jr high-7 they can go to the bathroom but all grades below that they can only rarely go. It was a big deal for DD as she was constantly having to hold her pee or not drink and the teachers defend these practices. We gripe about kids not taking responsibility and control everything they do.

We turn school into a prison then act surprised when they rebel in the way of all prisoners throughout time.  We keep trying to fight and control basic human instincts. 

[bluemongoose]

14 minutes ago, Soror said:

 

The lack of autonomy bothered me in school and it is so much worse now (why I mentioned it up thread). Daughter was not allowed to carry her own asthma inhaler. Or even carry otc meds. Required to go to a nurse but then they are only allowed to give Tums even if you sign otherwise, unless you get a doctor's signature they can't give otc meds. I've told mine take whatever they need with them and be discreet. By the time they get to Jr high-7 they can go to the bathroom but all grades below that they can only rarely go. It was a big deal for DD as she was constantly having to hold her pee or not drink and the teachers defend these practices. We gripe about kids not taking responsibility and control everything they do.

This bothered me as well. It continued through high school at my school. I had really irregular periods and my teachers wouldn't let me go to the restroom until passing period because "I should manage my time better." Um...  
It was so ingrained in me from public school that my first week in college I raised my hand once in class to ask to use the restroom and everyone looked at me like I had 3 heads. I was so embarrassed. I didn't know we could just leave if we needed to.  

This is one thing I love about homeschooling. If my kid needs to go to the restroom or grab a drink or snack or whatever, all I ask is that they tell me before just taking off. I have a few that wander. It is really frustrating if they just get up and walk away when you are mid-sentence. I have never minded if they let me know what they need so I can pause for them though. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by bluemongoose

[SKL]

3 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Honest question- what forms of discipline are appropriate for schools to use?  Kids are really out of control, teachers hands are tied. I think the root cause is poor parenting, but schools can't fix what happens at home.  

Teachers are leaving, and a big reason cited is bad behavior with no consequences from administration.   Teachers are at fault for kids refusing to do work- and cannot give zeros or fail students- even absent ones!  I planned to be a teacher and I'm so glad now that I didn't finish up and stayed home instead to raise my own kids, but our country is failing these kids!  It weighs on me. 

Well first of all, it often isn't "out of control" children who are getting recess taken away.  When my kids were in 1st, they lost recess (and one was even held back from lunch) due to not finishing written assignments.  The lunch incident was to force her to finish the required 4 sentences in her "journal."  There was no allegation of disruptive behavior.

Not finishing or turning in work (or not doing it well enough) should not be a punishable crime in primary school in the first place IMO.

Also, getting up and moving around should be happening more often within the rules.  This should be something teachers can work into the school day.

Many teachers manage to keep the kids on task & behaving without resorting to frequent punishments.  Those who can't should maybe request help or training from superiors or more experienced teachers.  If it's a specific kid having a specific challenge, then that needs to be looked into.  It's not like lockdown is going to cure a kid with ADHD or whatever.  Looking back, the most distracting moments of my KG/primary education involved teachers punishing students - students who did not subsequently improve.  (And need I say that the times I got paddled, that did nothing for my academic or social development either?)

Some will argue that teachers' hands are tied because they don't have time, training, autonomy, etc.  Well, then that needs fixed too.

To the comment that it's bad parenting teaching these kids behavior that prevents education - well that suggests that these are kids who can be taught how to act.  (I'm sure some can, while some need more than just rules to do that.)  Maybe start out the school year with an environment that works for kids parented that way.  Originally, KG was supposed to be an environment that mirrored the typical home environment, where kids could act out stuff and gradually be eased into a more academic environment.  So, let them move around, touch everything, talk out of turn, have their own opinion, make up stories, learn from each other.  (One of the first complaints I got about my kids was that they wanted to touch the keyboards in the music room.  Well of course they did??)  Then little by little, add in quiet, listening, following directions, using paper and crayons, and literacy.  Is this such a crazy idea?

I wonder if Montessori type schools have the same problems with discipline as are being discussed here.

[Lady Florida.]

Still legal in Florida which probably surprises no one. Parents must choose to opt in or out. IOW, a form is sent home at the start of the year and they choose. I don't know what the default is for parents who don't sign one way or the other. Many school systems have banned it but supposedly some principals ignore the ban. 

It was illegal in NJ when we left in 1969. My mother had no idea it was done in Florida or that she'd have to specifically opt out (at that time the default was permission unless you opt out). My brother who has adhd came home from school one day and said the principal paddled him. My mother, ever the advocate, went to the school and not only put it in writing but in no uncertain words that they were never to touch her children. Ever.

4 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

My state is on the legal list, but I can tell you that when I taught in the public school system (2001-2006) I would’ve been in *deep crap* if I’d resorted to corporal punishment. So legal…but still not common/allowed in my experience. 

I quit teaching in 1997 when ds was born but even then it was only administrators (including deans) who were allowed to paddle, not teachers. Teachers would send students to the dean if the behavior warranted it and couldn't be brought under control in the classroom. The dean or principal would then decide the punishment. I'm sure it's still that way.