Gravestones, Funerals, Death, etc....

[DawnM]

PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE, I MAY MODIFY THE PERSONAL INFORMATION

My mother died 2 years ago.   We still don't have a headstone.   

Let me backtrack:

• parents were gifted free burial plots in Iowa
• parents insist on being buried in Iowa
• I know NO ONE in Iowa
• Mother is originally from South Carolina
• Dad is originally from Oregon
• I currently live in North Carolina and dad has moved in with me, although he and mom lived in Arizona when she died

when my mom died:

• we went to Iowa for the burial and somewhat of a funeral
• we had another memorial/funeral for her in her hometown in South Carolina with her family
• we were planning a 3rd funeral in Arizona for the west coast folks but it was cancelled due to Covid starting that March

I thought that many funerals was ridiculous.   I think Iowa is ridiculous.    But with my mom's funeral it wasn't about me, it was for dad.

Two things happened this month that have me thinking I need to start considering Dad's ultimate demise:

• A friend and her girlfriend went to visit mom's grave this week.   They took a picture of her marker and commented on how there was still no gravestone.
• A local friend here, her father died this month

So, 2 questions:

1. would it be horrible of me to NOT go to Iowa for my dad's burial when he passes away and just have a small memorial in SC and possibly WA or OR for his side of the family?
2. would it be horrible if I just waited until my dad passed away to get a headstone for both of them?

Dad and I are not in agreement on a headstone, which is why she doesn't have one yet.   He wants individual headstones and to go ahead and get hers and have this saying that makes no sense put on it.   I tried to explain that it needed revision because it makes no sense but he argued with me so we dropped it and never have discussed it again.   After my friend's visit, I am thinking of bringing it up again, but dad has gone downhill to the point that he can't have much discussion anymore.

And so, after making a short story very long......

give me your thoughts

[Moonhawk]

Having a small memorial in SC (or WA or OR) is fine. The burial can just be... a burial. Have the memorial where it makes sense for those grieving.

No, it wouldn't be horrible to have a single headstone for both of them. It makes sense. If they wanted to be buried next to each other, then why can't the headstone reflect they are together? Even if you end up getting separate headstones for them, if they are done a the same time they will match for sure. My grandparents chose "matching headstones" but they were made 8 years apart and just slightly different enough that it's jarring -- it's like they tried to match but then made just enough different choices to look weird together. 

I wouldn't bring this up to him, if it adds to his distress when he can no longer handle it. 

If your dad brings it up and won't let go, I would probably agree to a design for her headstone but take a while to actually get it done. If the inscription is obvious what it means with slight revisions, I would just make the revisions because the sentiment he wants is more important than the actual words (and wait until he can no longer see it and be upset). If it's gobbled no matter how you try to parse what he wants inscribed, I'd probably just nix it. 

Sorry you are going through this. My parents also have plans to be buried where no one really knows them. I'm sorry you have to sort out all of these details when it's so far away and just adds complications to a difficult topic.

PS - you can blame the no headstone on Covid delays, for at least another year, if you feel like you need to offer an excuse to anyone who comments on it.

[Zoo Keeper]

My 2 cents regarding your possibilities...

Question #1-- no, not horrible at all.  It sounds like a workable solution for all those who would need/want to be involved.

Question #2 -- I think waiting and getting one that includes both of them is thoughtful and could be very beautifully done.  Especially since your dad seems to be at a point where he is not able to be the final decision maker on this. 

Parenting our parents while trying to honor them is hard.  Very hard.

Hugs to you.

[Faith-manor]

Neither of those things are horrible. They are practical. You will actually save money waiting to do the headstone because if you place one now with just your mom's info, you will pay the labor to have it altered for your dad's info and then reset at the grave site. And not going is fine. We all grieve differently. My mother is obsessed with visiting my dad and her parents' gravesites. I on the other hand find it deeply distressing and somewhat creepy so do not except when my ds asks me to go with him to cemeteries to record genealogy information.

If I could have possibly gotten out of it without creating a huge scene, I would not have attended my own father's funeral much less the burial. I find funerals to be bone, tired, exhausting and for me, of no value because I require privacy and quiet in order to process, and my extended family values big, huge crazy events that I hate and causes me great anxiety. My mother does not know it, but when she dies, my sister and I have agreed we will not pay for a funeral, and if our brother insists on one, he will have to pay and we will not attend. We will have a backyard barbecue privately, reminisce about her, just talk, and 1 nephew and his wife,  our honorary sister "L" plus my sis and her hubby,  my kids and their s/o's plus my hubby will be the ONLY invitees. The other sibling and his wife, and four of his five children and their s/o's will not be welcome. (Lots of really toxic dynamic in our brother's marriage and relationships with his kids.) It won't be popular - my mom attends a large church that will have "expectations" - but we don't care.

You do what is best for you and your family. Life is for the living. The dead have no idea, and their wishes should not extend beyond the grave in a way that negatively affects their family if it can be helped.

[DawnM]

Not worried about the cost, simply because the mission fund pays for all of it, including the funeral/burial, so that relieves me from that responsibility.

@Faith-manor, I had not planned to go to mom's burial in Iowa until I heard my 85 year old father was going to fly out for it.   Then I felt obligated.

I am also an only child so this makes things far more stressful in terms of having to do all of it myself.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, DawnM said:

Not worried about the cost, simply because the mission fund pays for all of it, including the funeral/burial, so that relieves me from that responsibility.

@Faith-manor, I had not planned to go to mom's burial in Iowa until I heard my 85 year old father was going to fly out for it.   Then I felt obligated.

I am also an only child so this makes things far more stressful in terms of having to do all of it myself.

I am sooooo sorry! But really, what you propose is not in any possible light, horrible. Please do not feel that way.

[Katy]

I would order one headstone, have the date of your dad's death added when he dies, and either "accidentally" modify the saying so it makes sense to you, or "accidentally" leave it off if you prefer.  You can also have the states where they lived and died included in the dates if you wish.  It probably makes no difference to you but it might help future genealogists who find the headstone online and are confused if it's the same couple given no obvious ties to Iowa.

ETA: When my dad died I realized it made no difference that what my dad said he wanted and what my stepmother arranged were different. The arrangements and memorial stones are for the living, not the dead. Do it however you want, but I would have them together.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Katy

[Catwoman]

I would do one headstone with your mom's dates inscribed on it, and your dad's name and birthdate on it, and then have the stone modified when your dad passes away (hopefully no time soon!!!) I'm suggesting this because it will be one less thing to worry about when your dad eventually dies. My thought is that it's better to do it now and not have to do it later when you're grieving.

As far as attending the burial, it seems so weird that it's in Iowa where none of you knows anyone, but if it were me, I would still want to be there to say goodbye. But because you would also be having a service with family and friends, that might be enough for you, and the added trip to Iowa might just prolong the grief and the closure. Also, you have a good-sized family, and it could be a real nuisance to take them with you to Iowa, and it could also be difficult to leave them behind, especially your little guy, who might be very upset about losing his grandfather; having you leave for a few days might be very rough on him.

So basically, I have no advice about Iowa. I can see both sides, and I don't really think either decision is a bad one. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Your father is past the point of making his own wishes about this happen and he's even past the point of having a rational discussion about the topic, so his desires are no longer the primary consideration, yours are.  That's just reality. The fact is, it may not be your dad's first choice to have a joint headstone, but dad's condition requires eldercare in another state by his sandwiched, employed, only child. Only child gets to decide what's the most practical thing to do.  In this case, planning to get a joint headstone is the most practical.  I wouldn't start a conversation about it with Dad.  Say nothing, if he brings it up deflect and change the subject, then when he dies, get the joint headstone.

Yes, it's wildly unrealistic and ridiculous to have more than one memorial/funeral/burial gathering that you're responsible for for each parent. Now if someone in the family or a close friend wants to coordinate a memorial service in their area for locals, more power to them! You're not obligated to attend. 

When my mother's best friend since the 8th grade died in TX where she lived the last 15 years of her life with her husband near one adult child and grandchild, the family had a funeral and burial there. The friends and extended family she had in AZ where she lived for the first 50 years of her life attended the AZ memorial service and meal that my mother completely coordinated and funded at her home several months after the deceased died.  The rest of the deceased's family in TX was invited to the AZ memorial, but not expected to attend because they had already had one at the time of her death.  Deceased's husband, adult child, and grandchild living in TX opted not to attend the AZ memorial. The other adult child and the deceased's sister, both living in AZ, opted to attend the AZ memorial in addition to the TX funeral and burial.

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Your father is past the point of making his own wishes about this happen and he's even past the point of having a rational discussion about the topic, so his desires are no longer the primary consideration, yours are.  That's just reality. The fact is, it may not be your dad's first choice to have a joint headstone, but dad's condition requires eldercare in another state by his sandwiched, employed, only child. Only child gets to decide what's the most practical thing to do.  In this case, planning to get a joint headstone is the most practical.  I wouldn't start a conversation about it with Dad.  Say nothing, if he brings it up deflect and change the subject, then when he dies, get the joint headstone.

Yes, it's wildly unrealistic and ridiculous to have more than one memorial/funeral/burial gathering that you're responsible for for each parent. Now if someone in the family or a close friend wants to coordinate a memorial service in their area for locals, more power to them! You're not obligated to attend. 

When my mother's best friend since the 8th grade died in TX where she lived the last 15 years of her life with her husband near one adult child and grandchild, the family had a funeral and burial there. The friends and extended family she had in AZ where she lived for the first 50 years of her life attended the AZ memorial service and meal that my mother completely coordinated and funded at her home several months after the deceased died.  The rest of the deceased's family in TX was invited to the AZ memorial, but not expected to attend because they had already had one at the time of her death.  Deceased's husband, adult child, and grandchild living in TX opted not to attend the AZ memorial. The other adult child and the deceased's sister, both living in AZ, opted to attend the AZ memorial in addition to the TX funeral and burial.

Just wanted to point out that Dawn's dad lives with her, not in another state. 🙂 

[happi duck]

When my mom died her gravestone was placed and at the same time my dad's was placed just without the death date.  (matching but separate stones)

Is what he wants inscribed rude or something?  It doesn't sound like you plan to tend the grave so could you just go ahead with his wishes?

When my dad died I was out voted and his wishes weren't respected which bothers me.  The argument was that arrangements were for the living but I felt like honoring his wishes was one last thing we could do for him.

 

[DawnM]

6 minutes ago, happi duck said:

When my mom died her gravestone was placed and at the same time my dad's was placed just without the death date.  (matching but separate stones)

Is what he wants inscribed rude or something?  It doesn't sound like you plan to tend the grave so could you just go ahead with his wishes?

When my dad died I was out voted and his wishes weren't respected which bothers me.  The argument was that arrangements were for the living but I felt like honoring his wishes was one last thing we could do for him.

 

It just doesn't make sense.

It is something like (and I am not using her real name)

Sara loved people

People love Sara

Sara loved Jesus

Jesus loves Sara

 

He said it is because people still love her and Jesus still loves her.....but grammatically it is confusing and too wordy, etc....

I think if Dad's wishes are honored it should just say, "She loved God deeply" or something of the sort.

I have been looking up tombstones of missionaries and Jonathan Goforth and his wife's tombstone says, "They Glorified God and loved man" I think adding in "fellow man" or something would sound more appropriate for today's society, but I want it to reflect their love for the Lord and for people.   And maybe say something about their years of service on the mission field. 

[TexasProud]

Yeah, I guess I don't understand the not putting what dad wanted on the gravestone. Making sense doesn't matter.  Those are for what the loved one wants most, which was your dad.  I would have let him put the moon is made of cheese if that is the way he wanted to honor your mother. However, since your dad is the way he is now, it does seem to make sense to just have one gravestone for both.  As far as attending the burial, totally what you need to have closure. 

I am glad that when dad and I discussed it, he said that really the burial/headstone stuff was for me because I would be the one that visited it. So wherever was most convenient for me is where he would want it. So we bought a plot here, and then hubby and I bought the plot right next to him so our kids don't have to worry about it.  I do go to visit it every so often.

So, your parents didn't make it convenient. Really sorry. You do whatever makes sense for YOU to honor them.  Because NOW, YOUR wishes are the ones that need to be honored as you will be the one remembering your parents.  Whatever makes sense for you to have closure. Your parents won't be here and won't care.  It is about your honoring and remembrance. 

[TexasProud]

3 minutes ago, DawnM said:

It just doesn't make sense.

It is something like (and I am not using her real name)

Sara loved people

People love Sara

Sara loved Jesus

Jesus loves Sara

 

He said it is because people still love her and Jesus still loves her.....but grammatically it is confusing and too wordy, etc....

I think if Dad's wishes are honored it should just say, "She loved God deeply" or something of the sort.

I have been looking up tombstones of missionaries and Jonathan Goforth and his wife's tombstone says, "They Glorified God and loved man" I think adding in "fellow man" or something would sound more appropriate for today's society, but I want it to reflect their love for the Lord and for people.   And maybe say something about their years of service on the mission field. 

I would have let him do it. It was HIS way to honor him. No one else will ever read it that really cares about her.  ( I mean other than you.)

[DawnM]

5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah, I guess I don't understand the not putting what dad wanted on the gravestone. Making sense doesn't matter.  Those are for what the loved one wants most, which was your dad.  I would have let him put the moon is made of cheese if that is the way he wanted to honor your mother. However, since your dad is the way he is now, it does seem to make sense to just have one gravestone for both.  As far as attending the burial, totally what you need to have closure. 

I am glad that when dad and I discussed it, he said that really the burial/headstone stuff was for me because I would be the one that visited it. So wherever was most convenient for me is where he would want it. So we bought a plot here, and then hubby and I bought the plot right next to him so our kids don't have to worry about it.  I do go to visit it every so often.

So, your parents didn't make it convenient. Really sorry. You do whatever makes sense for YOU to honor them.  Because NOW, YOUR wishes are the ones that need to be honored as you will be the one remembering your parents.  Whatever makes sense for you to have closure. Your parents won't be here and won't care.  It is about your honoring and remembrance. 

Are you saying 2 different things?

4 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I would have let him do it. It was HIS way to honor him. No one else will ever read it that really cares about her.  ( I mean other than you.)

Well, her current non-gravestone is already on FindAGrave.com so my guess is that someday it will be updated to reflect the actual gravestone and then everyone can see it.....

And, honestly, what he wanted is not what I think my mom would have wanted.   She was an English major in college and always corrected my Dad's English.....🤣

[BusyMom5]

For FIL,  MIL picked out one stone and it has all his info on one side,  and her name and birthday on the other.  We will add her death (much) later.  If he is going downhill and not likely to visit, I would probably just wait.   I know getting the stone made and set took several months.  

As for the service,  I would have one where the most people who knew him and family would attend.  You can just do a burial in Iowa.  

What each family chooses to do needs to fit the needs if your family.   A few years ago there was a couple we were close to had a service here- where they moved after retirement- and another in the state they were from, where family still lived.  They died about 2 years apart, and didn't do a service for the husband (who died first), but had big ones for the wife- but it was a tribute to both of them and their life together ❤   It was beautiful.   Knowing them, it perfectly suited their personalities.   

Hugs to you as you navigate this difficult time.  

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, DawnM said:

Are you saying 2 different things?

Well, her current non-gravestone is already on FindAGrave.com so my guess is that someday it will be updated to reflect the actual gravestone and then everyone can see it.....

And, honestly, what he wanted is not what I think my mom would have wanted.   She was an English major in college and always corrected my Dad's English.....🤣

Yes, I am saying two different things. I don't know. You know your parents.  I guess my inclination is to always do what the loved one wants. Because yeah, people COULD look it up, but who would and who would care.  I mean really.  After our children are gone who will really care? And people laugh at the silly saying, does it REALLY matter in the grand scheme of things? No, will you care in 100 years? No. It really only matters for the one who loves them and is still alive. Now, if your mom would really care... I could see it going both ways. Doing it his way and imagining her laughing or doing it the way she would want.  However, your dad is rapidly declining, including cognitively if I am remembering correctly, so what he wants doesn't really matter anymore.  It is what YOU want. Because it is how you will remember them. Once you are gone, no one will ever visit it, though it sounds like you won't anyway.  So whatever honors them and helps them remember them the way YOU want to since your dad is not cognitively able to do anything about it.    But yeah, when it happened, if one of my children told me you can't put what YOU want on my husband's gravestone I would be pretty ticked. I loved my husband best. I get to put what I want.  But like I said, it sounds like it doesn't matter anymore. 

[TexasProud]

Oh, and about the service for your dad... that is all about YOU. Whatever YOU want goes. Nothing to feel bad about. 

[catz]

I think funerals are for the living.  If you don't want to do a service in Iowa or go out there, I personally think that is absolutely fine.  My father died at their winter home in a retirement community.  My mom had him cremated and sent back to closer to where we are.  She had a concise service here that several hundred attended.  People at the retirement community kept asking when they'd have a service there but she was done.  Some people find these services and memorials healing and good for their grief.  Some people find them like a ton of work and draining.  I think when your parents are gone, it's entirely up to you.  

That said, I would just do what your father wanted on the gravestone.  I wouldn't care about that at all and it may bring him some comfort to have it done the way he imagined.  Especially since it's in a location you really aren't likely to go visit and maintain anyway.

[history-fan]

 If you don't want to go to Iowa for the burial that would be fine. One memorial would seem good with the location being where you would want to have it.

I would just get one headstone with both their info on it. As far as the wording I would put what was requested on the stone. It may have had an unknown meaning between them.  The engravers would be able to show you how it would look and the placement of everything. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by history-fan

[MercyA]

I don't think the saying is awful or silly. Could it be worded better? Sure. But I'd just do what your dad wants in that regard. It's a little thing, really. Get it taken care of now so you can show him a picture. 

Your dad won't care if you don't go to Iowa when the time comes. Only go if *you* care. You can always visit later if you would like.

I wouldn't try to do more than one service. If people can't make it, they can send donations or flowers, and that's okay.

Hugs to you. You do so much.

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I don't think the saying is awful or silly. Could it be worded better? Sure. But I'd just do what your dad wants in that regard. It's a little thing, really. Get it taken care of now so you can show him a picture. 

Your dad won't care if you don't go to Iowa when the time comes. Only go if *you* care. You can always visit later if you would like.

I wouldn't try to do more than one service. If people can't make it, they can send donations or flowers, and that's okay.

Hugs to you. You do so much.

I wouldn't really mind doing a West Coast and East Coast memorial, I have lots of friends on the W Coast to visit too as I lived there for a very long time, and I haven't seen a lot of that side of the family in several years.   

Although as I am thinking all of this through, a nice dinner might be nicer.  

[Faith-manor]

Also, really just what others said, this is about the living. When fil died, it was after a long, long battle with cancer that left mil utterly, physically spent. Of course her church expected an immediate funeral, but she was just not mentally or physically capable, and none of her children, in laws, or grandkids could come because we all lived out of state and had spent vacation time to visit him while he was alive. So she told the pastor NO and why. He was wonderful, and so respectful. He told everyone on a mass email and call list that they were not to visit her for two weeks, and it would be he and his wife only doing well checks on her so she could rest. The first day after fil died, she slept for 14 hrs, got up and had a sandwich and large glass of water, and went back to sleep for another 8 hrs. She spent two weeks caring for herself. Then the pastor simply had Sunday service in which the obituary and eulogy were read, and she lit a candle for him. The church provided a flower arrangement. No luncheon, but she was showered with groceries, casseroles, and restaurant gift cards. When she told them she was coming to visit us, families donated enough money to buy her plane ticket and then some. It was PERFECT! I cannot emphasize enough that people should do what is best for them and their immediate family. Be creative. Traditions do you no good if they are not helpful personally.

[DawnM]

My mom's favorite song was The Old Rugged Cross.

She also loved roses.

I saw this tombstone and think something similar would be really nice for her, although I would probably put "I will cling to the old rugged cross, and exchange it someday for a crown."

 

[Tap]

Honestly, just do what works for you. Your dad won't be visiting the grave. Do a dual headstone, or identical solo stones placed when your dad passes. That way you only have to make the decision once. My father was cremated and then buried in a plot which makes no sense to me, but it doesn't matter. I will never go to the cemetery to remember him, and I didn't offer to pay for a stone to mark his site. He was an avid outdoorsman. That is where he belongs in my mind and where I will always find him.

I am a very empathic person, and other people's grief drowns me. I attend funerals, but only arrive on time (never early or for viewings) and leave the second it is over. I understand your desire to not do all the events around her death. I only went to my father and grandmothers internment and again, just showed up briefly. Luckily I live out of state, but still a distance that can be driven in a day, so I always have the travel excuse for not lingering. My family does not understand me, and things I am horrible for not doing 'all the things' but I don't care. A funeral sucks every last little bit of life out of me for days and days. 

Just do what works for you. If you don't want to decide, you can ask the stone place to give you a few recommendations that are in xyz budget and just pick from those. They know what looks good and what makes cohesive sense when placing dual stones. Sometimes is easier to have fewer choices and just make a decision, that to be overwhelmed by allll the choices.

[Tap]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

I wouldn't really mind doing a West Coast and East Coast memorial, I have lots of friends on the W Coast to visit too as I lived there for a very long time, and I haven't seen a lot of that side of the family in several years.   

Although as I am thinking all of this through, a nice dinner might be nicer.  

I have an aunt with lifelong schizophrenia who died many years ago. Her memorial service was only going to have about 10 people (since she had no friends), and my mom was having to pay for her burial. Due to that, we just reserved a small dining room at a nice hotel and had a  private dinner in her honor. It was much nicer and less emotionally heavy. During dinner everyone shared a memory and that was that. It sounds odd, but doing to the memory while eating, was easier to me, because the food was a nice distraction. It gave everyone freedom to be more casual and less somber.

[Tap]

13 minutes ago, DawnM said:

My mom's favorite song was The Old Rugged Cross.

She also loved roses.

I saw this tombstone and think something similar would be really nice for her, although I would probably put "I will cling to the old rugged cross, and exchange it someday for a crown."

 

 

I think that is a great sentiment and a wonderful way to honor her. ✝️

[Shoeless]

In agreement that you should do what works for you. 

If you have the money, I would put whatever your dad wants on your mom's headstone now, and then change the stone when your dad passes away. If it makes him happy, just do it, and then fix the problem later. 

[Meriwether]

I would honor my dad's wishes about the headstone if my mom doesn't leave instructions about it.

[Terabith]

No, it wouldn't be horrible not to go to Iowa.  

But I would go with your dad's wishes on the headstone.  

[Pippen]

10 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I would honor my dad's wishes about the headstone if my mom doesn't leave instructions about it.

I also would honor your dad's wishes about the headstone, unless there's a gross error on a date or name spelling. It's always possible that you don't know all the reasoning behind the saying that makes no sense to you, or the reason that he's wanting separate stones. 

[Grace Hopper]

4 hours ago, Tap said:

I have an aunt with lifelong schizophrenia who died many years ago. Her memorial service was only going to have about 10 people (since she had no friends), and my mom was having to pay for her burial. Due to that, we just reserved a small dining room at a nice hotel and had a  private dinner in her honor. It was much nicer and less emotionally heavy. During dinner everyone shared a memory and that was that. It sounds odd, but doing to the memory while eating, was easier to me, because the food was a nice distraction. It gave everyone freedom to be more casual and less somber.

We did the same thing. There was a cremation and a remembrance dinner for about 25 people. The urn box had a lock and key with brass tag. The tag was inscribed with the words, “Awake My Soul and Sing.” I will request the same epitaph for myself. Her spouse had previously passed and had a tandem burial crypt, so later the urn was placed privately with just her children. 

[Ausmumof3]

I would probably let your Dad put what he wants on your mums headstone at this point and know you can change it if you want later to a single stone to honour them both with something meaningful to you. I think grieving the way that makes sense to you in terms of a local memorial service is fine.  I don’t think you’re a horrible person for any of those things.

[HS Mom in NC]

8 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Just wanted to point out that Dawn's dad lives with her, not in another state. 🙂 

Yes, I know that. How is it relevant? I'm not following you. Neither of them lives in the same state as the grave. It's not like it's across town. I don't see any reason to do headstones twice. Just do the one for both with her details and his except for his death date for simplicity so later all the has to do is add his death date.

She's caring for a traumatized child in transition to a new family, working, and having him in home as an elder dependent.  It's bad enough he and his wife insisted on being buried in another state. Everything needs to be done for her convenience.  She doesn't have other siblings to share the load, she isn't an empty-nester with time on her hands. She's got more than a full plate and will likely have a full plate for another couple of decades.

As to the phrasing he chose: Shrug. The daughter should have input what goes on it. If that's what Mom wanted written, or Mom left no instructions and daughter were in agreement with Dad, sure, go with Dad's idea. But that's not what's going on. It should be a collaborative effort between grieving spouse and grieving children.

[Catwoman]

38 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Yes, I know that. How is it relevant? I'm not following you. Neither of them lives in the same state as the grave. It's not like it's across town. I don't see any reason to do headstones twice. Just do the one for both with her details and his except for his death date for simplicity so later all the has to do is add his death date.

She's caring for a traumatized child in transition to a new family, working, and having him in home as an elder dependent.  It's bad enough he and his wife insisted on being buried in another state. Everything needs to be done for her convenience.  She doesn't have other siblings to share the load, she isn't an empty-nester with time on her hands. She's got more than a full plate and will likely have a full plate for another couple of decades.

As to the phrasing he chose: Shrug. The daughter should have input what goes on it. If that's what Mom wanted written, or Mom left no instructions and daughter were in agreement with Dad, sure, go with Dad's idea. But that's not what's going on. It should be a collaborative effort between grieving spouse and grieving children.

I feel like you’re arguing with me, but the only reason I mentioned that Dawn’s father lived with her was because you said this:

9 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

 The fact is, it may not be your dad's first choice to have a joint headstone, but dad's condition requires eldercare in another state by his sandwiched, employed, only child. 

I (apparently mistakenly — sorry about that!) interpreted that sentence as meaning that you thought Dawn's father required eldercare in a different state from where she lives. I wasn’t sure if you knew that he lived with her, and that’s the only reason I posted.

I don’t really understand how her father’s need for care has anything to do with Dawn ordering a gravestone for her mom, though. She doesn’t have to travel to Iowa to order a gravestone, and it’s a relatively simple process that can be handled online or over the phone/emails.

Regarding the rest of your post, are you responding to anything I posted, or were you just speaking generally? I don’t think I even addressed some of the things you mentioned, and I’m well aware of how busy Dawn is, and how many responsibilities she has on her plate. I hope she doesn’t think I’m unsympathetic, because that’s not the case at all! 

[BakersDozen]

16 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

The dead have no idea, and their wishes should not extend beyond the grave in a way that negatively affects their family if it can be helped.

Writing this on a note...so excellent.

 

[katilac]

I would honor my dad's wishes regarding a headstone. I would be on the phone with 1-800-HEADSTONES at this very moment, and if he wanted the inscription to say "Obi Wan Kenobi Moo Goo Gai Pan" then that is what it would say. 

 

18 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Your father is past the point of making his own wishes about this happen and he's even past the point of having a rational discussion about the topic, so his desires are no longer the primary consideration, yours are.  <snip> Only child gets to decide what's the most practical thing to do.  In this case, planning to get a joint headstone is the most practical.  I wouldn't start a conversation about it with Dad.  Say nothing, if he brings it up deflect and change the subject, then when he dies, get the joint headstone.
 

How is he past the point of having a rational discussion about it? His wife has been dead for two years, and he wants her to have a headstone, which is tremendously important to the majority of people. He is very well able to express this; I presume that he needs help actually getting it done. This is not something to deflect about: if she's refusing to help him get it done, then she needs to be honest and tell him so, and he might be able to get someone else to help him. Saying that her wishes are the primary consideration because he is unable to handle this on his own is a horrifying stance to me; this is why people are afraid of getting old and why they often refuse to move closer to, or move in with, their children: they are afraid of not being respected and of having their wishes ignored. 

In the practical sense, just ordering the headstone would simplify her life for the foreseeable future. It's not an ongoing chore, it's one and done and can be handled over the phone. It's not any more difficult to do than a joint headstone - and, if she doesn't want to deal with it again when her dad dies, she won't have to, she can just not get a headstone. There will be no one to care, but her dad does care. 

I know that Dawn has her hands full, and I am 100% on board with her delegating this chore to someone else. The local council on aging or many other volunteer organizations would likely help him - it's really just a matter of some phone calls (to get the headstone ordered). 

17 hours ago, DawnM said:

It just doesn't make sense.

<snip>

He said it is because people still love her and Jesus still loves her.....but grammatically it is confusing and too wordy, etc....

I think if Dad's wishes are honored it should just say, "She loved God deeply" or something of the sort.

I have been looking up tombstones of missionaries and Jonathan Goforth and his wife's tombstone says, "They Glorified God and loved man" I think adding in "fellow man" or something would sound more appropriate for today's society, but I want it to reflect their love for the Lord and for people.   And maybe say something about their years of service on the mission field. 

That's not that bad. I have seen far worse wording and attempts at poetry in every cemetery I've ever visited, lol.  It's not worth distressing him over, for sure. It's his wife. 

17 hours ago, DawnM said:

Well, her current non-gravestone is already on FindAGrave.com so my guess is that someday it will be updated to reflect the actual gravestone and then everyone can see it.....

And, honestly, what he wanted is not what I think my mom would have wanted.   She was an English major in college and always corrected my Dad's English.....🤣

You're worried about what people will think when they see it, but, 1) I'm sure they will recognize it as a simple statement of love from him and 2) people are going to think a lot worse things about a non-existent headstone than a poorly-worded one. 

And you may well be right that it's not what your mom would have wanted, but that matters less for the same reason that going to your dad's eventual funeral or not matters less: your mom is dead. Your dad is alive, and it seems like he's similar to the majority of older people, in that the lack of a headstone for his wife's grave is painful for him, and a very big deal. If your mom can see her headstone and have an opinion about it, I am sure she would be quite indulgent about her husband doing his best to express his love, even if she also goes over it with a heavenly red pen! 

If you don't have to pay for this one, why not just get it done? Your dad would be happy, you could quit thinking about it. You can pay for a new one when your dad dies if it remains important to you, and you can upload that one tor you could pay for a memorial stone either close to you and your dad now, or in an area where a lot of their old friends are. 

If you absolutely will not do this, I think you should be honest and tell him so. He has the right to try and do it himself - the people who do this are very accustomed to dealing with older people and people who are unsure of what to do in general. Or again, absolutely nothing wrong with delegating this chore, you do not have to do it yourself. The longer you delay, the fewer people will be around who actually care to visit the grave or read the headstone. 

Why not call the place and ask for suggestions? I promise you are hardly the first family to disagree on how to word the headstone! It's possible they will have a great idea about how to incorporate ideas from both of you. Your dad might be very happy if you tell him you can put his exact words on the headstone, right next to her photo (which would have it in smaller print, leaving room for a larger engraving as well). If that's what's bothering you, put those experts to work. 

Your ideas are lovely, and there is no reason you can't have another memorial stone commissioned if you wish to do so. We have private memorials for my sister in addition to her actual burial site. 

Edited January 1, 2022 by katilac

[J-rap]

I too would honor my dad's wishes, whether I thought they were practical or not.  It would be different if he were in the throes of dementia and coming up with a brand new idea.  But if these have been his plans all along, then I'd go along with them, especially if he's paying for everything himself.  If the saying on your mother's headstone doesn't make sense, can you just help with the wording a bit so it does?  Or, if the saying is a new one and completely crazy, can you come up with 6 others yourself that he can choose from?

Has your father talked about where he'd like the service to be?  I think it's fine to have a funeral in one place, and then just let the burial be the burial somewhere else.  I'd probably want to accompany the remains to the burial site myself... It would be meaningful to me.  But your life is very busy so I know that might not be possible.  

[DawnM]

4 hours ago, katilac said:

I would honor my dad's wishes regarding a headstone. I would be on the phone with 1-800-HEADSTONES at this very moment, and if he wanted the inscription to say "Obi Wan Kenobi Moo Goo Gai Pan" then that is what it would say. 

 

How is he past the point of having a rational discussion about it? His wife has been dead for two years, and he wants her to have a headstone, which is tremendously important to the majority of people. He is very well able to express this; I presume that he needs help actually getting it done. This is not something to deflect about: if she's refusing to help him get it done, then she needs to be honest and tell him so, and he might be able to get someone else to help him. Saying that her wishes are the primary consideration because he is unable to handle this on his own is a horrifying stance to me; this is why people are afraid of getting old and why they often refuse to move closer to, or move in with, their children: they are afraid of not being respected and of having their wishes ignored. 

In the practical sense, just ordering the headstone would simplify her life for the foreseeable future. It's not an ongoing chore, it's one and done and can be handled over the phone. It's not any more difficult to do than a joint headstone - and, if she doesn't want to deal with it again when her dad dies, she won't have to, she can just not get a headstone. There will be no one to care, but her dad does care. 

I know that Dawn has her hands full, and I am 100% on board with her delegating this chore to someone else. The local council on aging or many other volunteer organizations would likely help him - it's really just a matter of some phone calls (to get the headstone ordered). 

That's not that bad. I have seen far worse wording and attempts at poetry in every cemetery I've ever visited, lol.  It's not worth distressing him over, for sure. It's his wife. 

You're worried about what people will think when they see it, but, 1) I'm sure they will recognize it as a simple statement of love from him and 2) people are going to think a lot worse things about a non-existent headstone than a poorly-worded one. 

And you may well be right that it's not what your mom would have wanted, but that matters less for the same reason that going to your dad's eventual funeral or not matters less: your mom is dead. Your dad is alive, and it seems like he's similar to the majority of older people, in that the lack of a headstone for his wife's grave is painful for him, and a very big deal. If your mom can see her headstone and have an opinion about it, I am sure she would be quite indulgent about her husband doing his best to express his love, even if she also goes over it with a heavenly red pen! 

If you don't have to pay for this one, why not just get it done? Your dad would be happy, you could quit thinking about it. You can pay for a new one when your dad dies if it remains important to you, and you can upload that one tor you could pay for a memorial stone either close to you and your dad now, or in an area where a lot of their old friends are. 

If you absolutely will not do this, I think you should be honest and tell him so. He has the right to try and do it himself - the people who do this are very accustomed to dealing with older people and people who are unsure of what to do in general. Or again, absolutely nothing wrong with delegating this chore, you do not have to do it yourself. The longer you delay, the fewer people will be around who actually care to visit the grave or read the headstone. 

Why not call the place and ask for suggestions? I promise you are hardly the first family to disagree on how to word the headstone! It's possible they will have a great idea about how to incorporate ideas from both of you. Your dad might be very happy if you tell him you can put his exact words on the headstone, right next to her photo (which would have it in smaller print, leaving room for a larger engraving as well). If that's what's bothering you, put those experts to work. 

Your ideas are lovely, and there is no reason you can't have another memorial stone commissioned if you wish to do so. We have private memorials for my sister in addition to her actual burial site. 

The only person really visiting is my friend, whose significant other just happens to live in that area and so she visits.   Otherwise, no one has visited her grave, but yeah, all her relatives and friends can see it online.    So, on the one hand, you are right, it doesn't matter.   On the other, it does.....to me.   Her obituary was not written well and focused on one aspect of her life and not her whole life and that bothered me, but dad wrote it and didn't want much input and I think in his grief he just couldn't see past that one part of her life.

My dad is one of the smartest people I have ever known.   He skipped two grades in K-12, skipped a year of college (went strait to grad school without a degree first based on some scores and grades he had).    But writing is NOT where he shines.   😂

It's ok, we will figure it out, or I will just wait until he brings it up.   I do have some time, they don't lay headstones in Iowa until Spring anyway.

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, DawnM said:

The only person really visiting is my friend, whose significant other just happens to live in that area and so she visits.   Otherwise, no one has visited her grave, but yeah, all her relatives and friends can see it online.    So, on the one hand, you are right, it doesn't matter.   On the other, it does.....to me.   Her obituary was not written well and focused on one aspect of her life and not her whole life and that bothered me, but dad wrote it and didn't want much input and I think in his grief he just couldn't see past that one part of her life.

My dad is one of the smartest people I have ever known.   He skipped two grades in K-12, skipped a year of college (went strait to grad school without a degree first based on some scores and grades he had).    But writing is NOT where he shines.   😂

It's ok, we will figure it out, or I will just wait until he brings it up.   I do have some time, they don't lay headstones in Iowa until Spring anyway.

Hugs, Dawn 💓💓💓

[DawnM]

26 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Hugs, Dawn 💓💓💓

thanks.

I have this urgency, and maybe it is my own anxiety, but I feel like this is either our last year with dad or our last year with the somewhat mentally aware dad, if that makes sense.

I bought him StoryWorth for Christmas but I don't think he fully understands what it is and hasn't written his first story prompt yet.   I think I may have to record him telling his stories and transcribe it myself, which is fine, but it makes me sad.

[TexasProud]

34 minutes ago, DawnM said:

thanks.

I have this urgency, and maybe it is my own anxiety, but I feel like this is either our last year with dad or our last year with the somewhat mentally aware dad, if that makes sense.

I bought him StoryWorth for Christmas but I don't think he fully understands what it is and hasn't written his first story prompt yet.   I think I may have to record him telling his stories and transcribe it myself, which is fine, but it makes me sad.

Huggs. Very hard. 

[DawnM]

Well, I have gone down a huge rabbit hole today.   I was trying to pull pictures of my grandparents (on dad's side) from the web and ended up finding other relatives I didn't know about and their stories.

I had a 2nd cousin (dad's first cousin) who was an artist in tao, New Mexico and her art is in the museum and the local hospital (or was at the time of her death).   I had no idea.

[Lanny]

@DawnMI read the first couple of replies, but I haven't read all of them.  I am glad you have someone in Iowa who can visit your mothers grave from time to time.  I think I would also take into consideration the financial aspects of this when your Dad passes away. How much is a grave where you are and getting him into it? And, how much would it cost to get him into the grave in Iowa with your mother?  Purely financial but it could be many thousands of dollars difference, with one location or another.  Iowa could be less expensive or more expensive.  Another possibility for your father would be a grave in SC where he has family and what would it cost to get him into a grave there? So, there are at least 3 possibilities.

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, Lanny said:

@DawnMI read the first couple of replies, but I haven't read all of them.  I am glad you have someone in Iowa who can visit your mothers grave from time to time.  I think I would also take into consideration the financial aspects of this when your Dad passes away. How much is a grave where you are and getting him into it? And, how much would it cost to get him into the grave in Iowa with your mother?  Purely financial but it could be many thousands of dollars difference, with one location or another.  Iowa could be less expensive or more expensive.  Another possibility for your father would be a grave in SC where he has family and what would it cost to get him into a grave there? So, there are at least 3 possibilities.

No, it is all pre-paid, so cost is not an issue/factor in any of this.

[Garga]

Get the gravestone he wants. It’s not like anyone will see it, since there’s just the one person who might go visit it. There are people who enjoy walking through graveyards and reading the inscriptions (my parents used to do this a lot.) Someone someday will get a kick out of the weird little saying on her gravestone. Even though it’s grammatically questionable, it’s sweet.

When your dad goes, do absolutely whatever it is you want to do without feeling any guilt.

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Garga

[Emba]

Haven’t read the rest of the replies, so I’ll just say what I thought when I read the OP: let it go about the tombstone. Let your dad put whatever he wants on it. If it’s in Iowa, will you ever see it anyway? If it matters to him let him have it. When he’s gone will you really feel like this was a fight with having?  I would try to get started on her headstone asap, and maybe get his done/placed on his plot (and let him choose it while he’s alive) as well, so all that needs done is the date added when the actual time comes. This takes a load off of you later , plus gives him peace of mind now.

 As far as memorial services: go to what makes sense for you. No one else can tell you how to grieve, or what is “enough”. Let others in the family know ahead of time what you plan and let them do more/other things if they want.

[Storygirl]

I have mixed feelings about whether it is disrespectful to change the wording from what your father wants. Since he will not see it in person, I think that the memorial is really, in the long term, for you and your descendants. However, I also understand that he, as the spouse, should have the biggest input. My dad didn't ask my input at all on my mom's gravestone.

But thinking of my mom's stone leads me to throw out an idea I don't think I have seen mentioned yet. My mom's grave is in a final row, with no other plots behind her. There is a path back there that cars can drive down. So my dad is having the wording placed on both sides of the stone, so that it can be read by people driving by, as well as those who would get out and walk to see the front.

Could you put what your dad wants on the front side of the stone, and put your own epitaph on the back side? Or vice versa.

 

[Storygirl]

This is just me, but I think that there should be a witness to the internment, so I would suggest that you would plan to go, when your dad is buried. You wouldn't have to have a service there. But witness it. We discussed not having a pastoral message at my mom's gravesite, because the internment happened the day after the funeral and was attended by family only, but my SIL felt strongly that it was appropriate to have a prayer, so we did. Since you are an only child, do what feels right for you.

People will have various feelings about this, of course. My brother, for example, felt that someone should witness my mother's cremation, and I totally did NOT have that same conviction. He went, and I did not.

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I have mixed feelings about whether it is disrespectful to change the wording from what your father wants. Since he will not see it in person, I think that the memorial is really, in the long term, for you and your descendants. However, I also understand that he, as the spouse, should have the biggest input. My dad didn't ask my input at all on my mom's gravestone.

I'm sure he'd want to see a picture of it, though. 

I agree that the spouse should have the biggest input and really, imo, the total and final say. To me, it follows along with the body being released specifically to the spouse: if specific instructions aren't left by the deceased, the surviving spouse has the right of burial (the right to make these decisions) and it also goes along with the spousal relationship in general. My parents had four kids but one spouse. They decide these things for their spouse, just as I will decide them for my spouse (not leaving any room for him to decide for me 😄).