wuhan - coronavirus

[popmom]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Cases and deaths have jumped significantly all across Europe, and are also heading up in S. Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, and parts of Latin America. It makes me concerned about the upcoming holiday season, since it often seems that the trends we see in Europe show up in the US a few weeks later. So glad kids will be able to get vaxed soon and have full protection by Christmas.

Still Delta variant? I am hopeful that the U.S. won’t see another surge of Delta.

[mommyoffive]

How does a pandemic start winding down? You are looking at it. (msn.com)

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Cases and deaths have jumped significantly all across Europe, and are also heading up in S. Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, and parts of Latin America. It makes me concerned about the upcoming holiday season, since it often seems that the trends we see in Europe show up in the US a few weeks later. So glad kids will be able to get vaxed soon and have full protection by Christmas.

Yep I agree.  That has been the trend so far each time.  

[Laura Corin]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Cases and deaths have jumped significantly all across Europe, and are also heading up in S. Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, and parts of Latin America. It makes me concerned about the upcoming holiday season, since it often seems that the trends we see in Europe show up in the US a few weeks later. So glad kids will be able to get vaxed soon and have full protection by Christmas.

Scotland has been dropping recently but has now plateaued.  Most cases in children and their parents, and young people. 

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/phs.covid.19/viz/COVID-19DailyDashboard_15960160643010/Overview

 

[Corraleno]

Really good news on fluvoxamine from a large RCT in Brazil:

"The results were stronger in a smaller group that excluded patients in the treatment arm who failed to follow through and take the full course of the drug. In the group that largely followed doctors’ orders—taking the pills at least 80% of the time—the risk of hospitalization was 66% less than in those in the placebo group. Just one of the treated patients died, compared with 12 who received the placebo."

The trial included 1500 patients who were unvaccinated and had at least one factor that increased their risk of hospitalization. (Kind of blows my mind that lots of people in a high risk category chose NOT to follow doctor's orders, didn't take the full course of the drug, and ended up hospitalized because of it.)

Summary in Science: https://www.science.org/content/article/ocd-drug-shows-promise-against-covid-19?utm_campaign=SciMag&utm_source=Social&utm_medium=Facebook

Original paper in The Lancet Global Health: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(21)00448-4/fulltext

 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Really good news on fluvoxamine from a large RCT in Brazil:

"The results were stronger in a smaller group that excluded patients in the treatment arm who failed to follow through and take the full course of the drug. In the group that largely followed doctors’ orders—taking the pills at least 80% of the time—the risk of hospitalization was 66% less than in those in the placebo group. Just one of the treated patients died, compared with 12 who received the placebo."

The trial included 1500 patients who were unvaccinated and had at least one factor that increased their risk of hospitalization. (Kind of blows my mind that lots of people in a high risk category chose NOT to follow doctor's orders, didn't take the full course of the drug, and ended up hospitalized because of it.)

Summary in Science: https://www.science.org/content/article/ocd-drug-shows-promise-against-covid-19?utm_campaign=SciMag&utm_source=Social&utm_medium=Facebook

Original paper in The Lancet Global Health: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(21)00448-4/fulltext

 

This is compelling enough that I'm kinda sorta pondering weaning off my antidepressant that is working very well but that is contraindicated to take with fluvoxamine because of risk of serotonin syndrome.  Probably won't, because it's working really well, but arg.  Dilemmas.  

[KSera]

27 minutes ago, Terabith said:

This is compelling enough that I'm kinda sorta pondering weaning off my antidepressant that is working very well but that is contraindicated to take with fluvoxamine because of risk of serotonin syndrome.  Probably won't, because it's working really well, but arg.  Dilemmas.  

Obviously this is something you should talk to your psych about, but given that you’re vaccinated, it doesn’t seem like a compelling reason to go off your medication that is working well for you. The potential for that to have harmful effects on you seems much higher than your vaccinated risk from Covid. Have you or will you get a booster? If you’re boosted and maybe you can find out if monoclonal antibodies are available if you needed them, that seems like maybe a better plan?

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

Obviously this is something you should talk to your psych about, but given that you’re vaccinated, it doesn’t seem like a compelling reason to go off your medication that is working well for you. The potential for that to have harmful effects on you seems much higher than your vaccinated risk from Covid. Have you or will you get a booster? If you’re boosted and maybe you can find out if monoclonal antibodies are available if you needed them, that seems like maybe a better plan?

I get boosted on Thursday.  I put it off a bit because we've kept having events that I don't want to be potentially compromised for.  And monoclonal antibodies are definitely available if I need them; when I had what turned out to be a generic upper respiratory costume, my doctor had me get a covid test and said that I could get the antibodies if needed.  

[Corraleno]

34 minutes ago, Terabith said:

This is compelling enough that I'm kinda sorta pondering weaning off my antidepressant that is working very well but that is contraindicated to take with fluvoxamine because of risk of serotonin syndrome.  Probably won't, because it's working really well, but arg.  Dilemmas.  

There's some evidence that antidepressants in general may reduce risks of hospitalization and death. Fluvoxamine may have additional antiviral activity, but other meds may still be helpful. E.g. this is from a meta analysis published in Nature last February:

"This analysis showed a significant association between antidepressant use and reduced risk of intubation or death (HR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.43–0.73, p < 0.001). This association remained significant in multiple sensitivity analyses. Exploratory analyses suggest that this association was also significant for SSRI and non-SSRI antidepressants, and for fluoxetine, paroxetine, escitalopram, venlafaxine, and mirtazapine (all p < 0.05). These results suggest that antidepressant use could be associated with lower risk of death or intubation in patients hospitalized for COVID-19."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01021-4

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

There's some evidence that antidepressants in general may reduce risks of hospitalization and death. Fluvoxamine may have additional antiviral activity, but other meds may still be helpful. E.g. this is from a meta analysis published in Nature last February:

"This analysis showed a significant association between antidepressant use and reduced risk of intubation or death (HR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.43–0.73, p < 0.001). This association remained significant in multiple sensitivity analyses. Exploratory analyses suggest that this association was also significant for SSRI and non-SSRI antidepressants, and for fluoxetine, paroxetine, escitalopram, venlafaxine, and mirtazapine (all p < 0.05). These results suggest that antidepressant use could be associated with lower risk of death or intubation in patients hospitalized for COVID-19."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01021-4

Unfortunately, I'm on an older, tricylic antidepressant, nortriptyaline.  Which might also help, but isn't mentioned in the study.  (As it rarely is, since it's not used very often.)

[Halftime Hope]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Unfortunately, I'm on an older, tricylic antidepressant, nortriptyaline.  Which might also help, but isn't mentioned in the study.  (As it rarely is, since it's not used very often.)

Terabith, talk to a doc who is actively treating COVID patients. ( I found one locally by asking around and then being very direct about what I was looking in phone calls to medical offices, until I found one that I really, really like; probably my new PCP since mine retired.)

One of our family members has a similar situation with not wanting to mix SSRIs with other meds that would confict. 

The doc who will treat him for COVID has several other meds he uses in conjunction with MAbs. He was not phased at. all. by having to reach for a second drug instead of fluvoxamine.  

[bookbard]

Apparently Australia is now looking at the data for 5-11yr old vaccines and the suggestion is that it should be available before the end of the year. Unfortunately my husband really isn't keen. I am, and will probably get my way, but it's frustrating, because it's not based on data or anything, just a big 'what if' (but then again, my feelings aren't based hugely on data either, but the other side of the 'what if'.) 

[Ausmumof3]

Back under 1000 cases for Vic today!

Vic 989 cases 9 deaths

NSW 173 cases 4 deaths

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Back under 1000 cases for Vic today!

Vic 989 cases 9 deaths

NSW 173 cases 4 deaths

It's a really good feeling to get back to three figures - go VIC!

[Melissa in Australia]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-02/covid-19-vaccine-developer-facing-sack-after-refusing-jabs/100587356

A vaccine developer will be fired this week for not being vaccinated - but he is vaccinated with the vaccine that he helped develop for Australia.

 He is extremely miffed says he is the most pro vaccine person there is

just shows how unreasonable and no commonsense at all being used in the mad rush to force everyone in some states of Australia to be vaccinated- even people who already are.

[Melissa in Australia]

5 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's a really good feeling to get back to three figures - go VIC!

only just over half of the lately normal amount of  people got tested. so who knows what the real numbers are. 

[Melissa Louise]

15 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

only just over half of the lately normal amount of  people got tested. so who knows what the real numbers are. 

Hopefully infections are dropping alongside testing. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-02/covid-19-vaccine-developer-facing-sack-after-refusing-jabs/100587356

A vaccine developer will be fired this week for not being vaccinated - but he is vaccinated with the vaccine that he helped develop for Australia.

 He is extremely miffed says he is the most pro vaccine person there is

just shows how unreasonable and no commonsense at all being used in the mad rush to force everyone in some states of Australia to be vaccinated- even people who already are.

I’ve been wondering where he’s at as he’s local - I googled earlier today and they’re in phase three trials.  I must admit I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s pulling a bit of a publicity stunt.  

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

only just over half of the lately normal amount of  people got tested. so who knows what the real numbers are. 

Coronacast did say hospitalisations are also dropping although I haven’t checked that so hopefully it’s a real trend. 

[Dmmetler]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’ve been wondering where he’s at as he’s local - I googled earlier today and they’re in phase three trials.  I must admit I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s pulling a bit of a publicity stunt.  

That seems likely. FWIW, my kid’s college accepts vaccines approved by other countries precisely because of not wanting students to risk interactions between two different vaccines. Which makes sense to me. It also seems that being in a vaccine trial should be a reasonable exemption. You can’t test the effectiveness of a vaccine if those in the trial have to be vaccinated with a different vaccine! 

[bookbard]

NSW at 190 today, Vic again under 1,000 with 941 new cases. VIC I think has overtaken NSW in terms of number of cases this outbreak? ACT has 15 new cases, so it's still going on steadily there, and NZ 100. Funny how the Australian press reports NZ like it's another state! None of the other states/territories have reported any cases.

Apparently there'll be a decision about kids and vaccines in Australia by the end of November. Hope so. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Ausmumof3

[melmichigan]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports

 

I hope this was limited to this company, which accounts for 1,000 of 44,000 participants in the full trial.

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, melmichigan said:

I hope this was limited to this company, which accounts for 1,000 of 44,000 participants in the full trial.

Yes, a small enough proportion not to have a major impact and mostly issues with relation to trial participants safety rather than accuracy of the data.  

[bookbard]

Big jump today for both NSW and VIC - NSW has 308 cases and VIC has 1247 cases. QLD has recorded 3 cases in the one area, and ACT has 13 cases.

I wonder if we're starting to see the school spread now for NSW and VIC? A school kind of in our general area was closed this week. 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

Big jump today for both NSW and VIC - NSW has 308 cases and VIC has 1247 cases. QLD has recorded 3 cases in the one area, and ACT has 13 cases.

I wonder if we're starting to see the school spread now for NSW and VIC? A school kind of in our general area was closed this week. 

I guess it was to be expected eventually with reopening bit disappointing though 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

Big jump today for both NSW and VIC - NSW has 308 cases and VIC has 1247 cases. QLD has recorded 3 cases in the one area, and ACT has 13 cases.

I wonder if we're starting to see the school spread now for NSW and VIC? A school kind of in our general area was closed this week. 

Hundreds of schools have closed in Vic and NSW this term - it's around 500, I think. 

[Laura Corin]

BBC News - First pill to treat Covid gets approval in UK
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59163899

[bookbard]

NSW very close to 90% double dosed (above age 16). Apparently ACT is at 100% single dose! 249 cases for NSW, 1,343 for VIC so still high. Sounds like the NSW/VIC border is opening up now. A mystery covid case in NT, and a lockdown; a lockdown in QLD due to the small outbreak up there. 

I was reading about vaccination in the UK, it is very low for the 12 plus, and partly because protesters are standing at school gates - and sometimes going into the schools - and handing out anti-vax leaflets, including pictures of dead children. That seems shocking to me, can't believe they're allowed to do that. 

[Not_a_Number]

Apparently, one of our babysitters has COVID 😕 . It's a breakthrough infection -- she had Moderna back in February, but no booster.

She's in her late 20s and says she feels pretty sick, although we don't know details yet. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[KSera]

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Apparently, one of our babysitters has COVID 😕 . It's a breakthrough infection -- she had Moderna back in February, but no booster.

She's in her late 20s and says she feels pretty sick, although we don't know details yet. 

When did she last watch your kids?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

When did she last watch your kids?

I dunno, 3 months ago? 😛 We stopped doing indoor babysitting when cases started spiking in July. But we've had a relationship with her for a while and have kept in touch. 

So I'm not worried about ourselves, although of course this is precisely why we stopped doing indoor babysitting! 

[bookbard]

Western Australia has said they'll open up when they reach 90% - predicting January or February at this point, as they're only at 65%. Australia as a whole is at 80% (second dose above age 16), but there's big disparities between areas.

I read an absolutely fantastic article about health workers getting the vaccine going in a small town with a big Indigenous population, it was eye-opening. One town and a gaping vaccination chasm. How did it happen? - ABC News

The weird thing is that the delayed vaccine rollout in Australia may have one benefit - we should be able to get boosters in a timely fashion, so hopefully won't be affected too much by diminishing effectiveness issue (as say Israel). By next winter, most people should have received their boosters, as they're rolling it out to everyone (as far as I understand), after 6 months. And because they are only doing mRNA vaccines for boosters, everyone should then be equally protected (as currently a lot of people who received AZ with a short gap are only 50-60% protected against Delta). 

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, bookbard said:

Western Australia has said they'll open up when they reach 90% - predicting January or February at this point, as they're only at 65%. Australia as a whole is at 80% (second dose above age 16), but there's big disparities between areas.

I read an absolutely fantastic article about health workers getting the vaccine going in a small town with a big Indigenous population, it was eye-opening. One town and a gaping vaccination chasm. How did it happen? - ABC News

The weird thing is that the delayed vaccine rollout in Australia may have one benefit - we should be able to get boosters in a timely fashion, so hopefully won't be affected too much by diminishing effectiveness issue (as say Israel). By next winter, most people should have received their boosters, as they're rolling it out to everyone (as far as I understand), after 6 months. And because they are only doing mRNA vaccines for boosters, everyone should then be equally protected (as currently a lot of people who received AZ with a short gap are only 50-60% protected against Delta). 

Are there rumors yet of when kids will be able to be vaccinated there? After seeing the breakthrough cases here caused by interaction with unvaccinated children I hope you guys get there soon. 

[bookbard]

8 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Are there rumors yet of when kids will be able to be vaccinated there?

Rumour is we'll hear by the end of the month, with vaccines by the end of the year. They're looking at the data now, but there's only been positive noise about it. I don't think they'll be in the 'why bother' camp like the UK seems to be. I don't get it, even UK friends are like 'kids don't need it as they mostly don't get sick'. I'd agree if there were major serious common side effects from the vaccine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Even if no child ever got really sick, wouldn't the whole 'reduce the amount of covid overall' argument and the 'productivity when kids are taking weeks off school and someone has to mind them' argument be enough?

But then, the UK didn't/doesn't (not sure if it's changed) have the varicella vaccine for kids either, which I find mind-boggling. I've read the reasons but they don't really hold up. I know some people blame the NHS but we have a similar govt-paid vaccine scheme, and surely it's more cost-effective to not have people sick?

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

But then, the UK didn't/doesn't (not sure if it's changed) have the varicella vaccine for kids either, which I find mind-boggling.

Do they vaccinate during outbreaks of it? That's strange. Besides the risk to the really little ones, no one wants shingles later in life!

[bookbard]

5 hours ago, kbutton said:

Do they vaccinate during outbreaks of it? That's strange. Besides the risk to the really little ones, no one wants shingles later in life!

Honestly not being from the UK I don't know the ins and outs, only what my friend who currently lives there says - she didn't get her 2 kids vaccinated while they were here in Australia, and they don't do the chicken pox over there in the UK as part of the schedule, so her 2 kids got really sick - but the adults were fine of course being vaccinated! She did tell me it was something to do with preventing shingles (maybe the vaccine could trigger that later in life??) but we have really good anti-shingles vaccines now so? 

Sounds like there are a scattering of new cases of covid in the NT which isn't good as vaccination rate is low and lots of at risk people. 18 cases in ACT, 270 in NSW and 1268 in VIC . . . was really hoping that VIC's below 1000 cases thing would stick. QLD also had a case, and NZ 206. Apparently first time NZ above 200?

 

[Laura Corin]

12 hours ago, bookbard said:

Rumour is we'll hear by the end of the month, with vaccines by the end of the year. They're looking at the data now, but there's only been positive noise about it. I don't think they'll be in the 'why bother' camp like the UK seems to be. I don't get it, even UK friends are like 'kids don't need it as they mostly don't get sick'. I'd agree if there were major serious common side effects from the vaccine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Even if no child ever got really sick, wouldn't the whole 'reduce the amount of covid overall' argument and the 'productivity when kids are taking weeks off school and someone has to mind them' argument be enough?

 

The decision about Covid vaccines for 12-15yo was finely balanced in the UK. Medically, the benefit to the individual child was not considered great enough when balanced against the small risk of side effects. It was finally the nations' medical officers who decided on a single jab for societal reasons, avoiding the second jab which has a higher risk of side effects. I suspect the decision about younger children will be similar.

I don't know the ins and outs of the chickenpox decision. 

[Corraleno]

11 hours ago, bookbard said:

Honestly not being from the UK I don't know the ins and outs, only what my friend who currently lives there says - she didn't get her 2 kids vaccinated while they were here in Australia, and they don't do the chicken pox over there in the UK as part of the schedule, so her 2 kids got really sick - but the adults were fine of course being vaccinated! She did tell me it was something to do with preventing shingles (maybe the vaccine could trigger that later in life??) but we have really good anti-shingles vaccines now so? 

It's actually the opposite — the chances of getting shingles later in life are vastly higher if you had chickenpox vs the vaccine, and the few people who do get shingles despite being vaccinated generally get a milder case.

[Ausmumof3]

5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

It's actually the opposite — the chances of getting shingles later in life are vastly higher if you had chickenpox vs the vaccine, and the few people who do get shingles despite being vaccinated generally get a milder case.

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

[bookbard]

14 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

Thanks, I knew it was something about shingles. I don't know if it was a kind of experiment and they have changed it now? I always find it interesting how different countries do the vaccination schedules for kids.

[Ausmumof3]

Netherlands was the most recent country everyone was looking at as doing it right with over 80pc fully vaxed and moving to removing masks and more open society.  Other countries watching to see what happened. I don’t know if the hospitalisation situation will follow with the higher vax rates but cases are up.

[Ausmumof3]

Worldometer data shows cases in Germany at their highest point ever for 5/11 at 35,662.

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

I was just looking at this the other day (after being surprised to learn the UK doesn't vaccinate for chickenpox), and it doesn't even seem to be working terribly well for adults as a strategy; as far as I can tell there are about 50 shingles deaths in the UK/year compared to "less than 100" in the US, despite the population difference. And there are around 20 chicken pox deaths per year in both countries, again, despite the much larger US population (US deaths down from around 100/year pre-vaccine)

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

Presumably today's unvaccinated kids will also be protected as adults by contact with chickenpox, unless the policy changes?

[kokotg]

Just now, Laura Corin said:

Presumably today's unvaccinated kids will also be protected as adults by contact with chickenpox, unless the policy changes?

But aren't adults who are vaccinated as kids much less likely to get shingles anyway because of never having had chickenpox? 

[Laura Corin]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

But aren't adults who are vaccinated as kids much less likely to get shingles anyway because of never having had chickenpox? 

I really don't know. Eta my boss who recently had the chickenpox vaccine was told that he would now be susceptible to shingles,  but I don't know the numbers.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Corraleno]

Refusing to use the chickenpox vaccine in order to purposely keep chickenpox circulating in children, to provide some protection against shingles in adults who had chickenpox as children because they also didn't get the vaccine, instead of vaccinating children to prevent chickenpox, and then vaccinating older adults against shingles, resulting in fewer people getting chickenpox or shingles to begin with, seems like a bizarre strategy to me.

The people most likely to get shingles are people who had chickenpox, then people who had the vaccine, then people who never had chickenpox or the vaccine. But as long as chickenpox is allowed to spread unchecked  in the population, the odds of never being exposed to it are pretty low.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Corraleno

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I really don't know. Eta my boss who recently had the chickenpox vaccine was told that he would now be susceptible to shingles,  but I don't know the numbers.

Right. You have to have had either chicken pox or the vaccine in order for shingles to be a possibility, but the shot lowers the chances of shingles in the future vs having an actual chicken pox infection. 

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Refusing to use the chickenpox vaccine in order to purposely keep chickenpox circulating in children, to provide some protection against shingles in adults who had chickenpox as children because they also didn't get the vaccine, instead of vaccinating children to prevent chickenpox, and then vaccinating older adults against shingles, resulting in fewer people getting chickenpox or shingles to begin with, seems like a bizarre strategy to me.

Well, at least now we have a decent shingles vaccine, but that is only very recent. The previous one just wasn’t very good. When my older kids were young and I was making vaccine decisions, the varicella paper from the WHO stated the economic consequences of chickenpox due to parents being out of the workforce for an extended period taking care of their sick kids as the primary reason for recommending vaccination. Given that I was home with them at the time, and I was quite concerned about the vaccine wearing off right as they were reaching the age when chickenpox becomes dangerous, I delayed it with my older kids. They then got the shot when they reached preteens without having contracted chickenpox. Around that time, it was found that it was a valid concern to worry about the shot wearing off right as kids reached their teens or adulthood, because that was what was happening, and the second shot was added. With my younger kids, I went ahead and started them on the series earlier. Even if someone wanted their kids to contract chickenpox naturally, there’s just not enough of it circulating for that to happen for most people. At this point, I’m happier for my kids to not have to go through chickenpox and now the second shot should keep them protected long term. 
 

Incidentally, the varicella vaccine was developed in Japan in 1974, but it didn’t become part of their universal schedule until 2014 (the US adopted it in 1996). 

[ktgrok]

16 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

The decision about Covid vaccines for 12-15yo was finely balanced in the UK. Medically, the benefit to the individual child was not considered great enough when balanced against the small risk of side effects. It was finally the nations' medical officers who decided on a single jab for societal reasons, avoiding the second jab which has a higher risk of side effects. I suspect the decision about younger children will be similar.

 

You would think that on a population basis the benefit of lowering the risk of break through infections in adults exposed to kids would be enough to encourage fully vaccinating kids. Especially since it doesn't seem like one dose gives much protection at all against Delta. 

4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Netherlands was the most recent country everyone was looking at as doing it right with over 80pc fully vaxed and moving to removing masks and more open society.  Other countries watching to see what happened. I don’t know if the hospitalisation situation will follow with the higher vax rates but cases are up.

80 percent of total population, or 80 percent of eligible population? Again, if this is a case of 80% of say, adults, but 20 percent of the population is kids...it isn't enough. Then you start getting lax with masks, distancing, etc due to a false sense of security and things go badly.