wuhan - coronavirus

[Ausmumof3]

22 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

I think the retracted paper was actually without ivermectin but don’t quote me on it I don’t have time to check right now.

[wathe]

I have an acquaintance who refuses to vaccinate.  Because he is sure that his amazing natural diet, physical fitness, and all the vitamins he takes are going to protect him.  that's the kind of harm I'm talking about.

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

C, D, zinc, and NAC are all good for the immune system, but you need to make sure your levels are where they should be before you get sick. I have not seen any good evidence that taking massive doses once you're already sick do any good. The Spanish study that so many people (including John Campbell and his followers) tout as proof that large doses of D work as a post-infection treatment was retracted after it was revealed that the study was not randomized as claimed, they used totally the wrong statistical methods, and the treatment group started out with higher D levels. This RCT on NAC showed no benefit at all when used as a treatment on hospitalized patients.

There does seem to be a strong correlation between low D levels and severity of illness, but you can't remedy that by suddenly taking huge doses after you're sick. It takes a while to get levels up to where they should be even with a good, fairly high-dose daily supplement.

Personally I would not stay with any doctor or medical group that recommended a "protocol" that is not based on science and is being peddled by the likes of the FLCCCA.

 

[wathe]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

I think the retracted paper was actually without ivermectin but don’t quote me on it I don’t have time to check right now.

the one I posted about was MATH+

But P. Kory has also apparently had an ivermectin paper retracted 

[Bambam]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Ok. It’s also a human dewormer. Happy now?  

Just FYI, it is also used topically for humans for rosacea.  

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

C, D, zinc, and NAC are all good for the immune system, but you need to make sure your levels are where they should be before you get sick. I have not seen any good evidence that taking massive doses once you're already sick do any good. The Spanish study that so many people (including John Campbell and his followers) tout as proof that large doses of D work as a post-infection treatment was retracted after it was revealed that the study was not randomized as claimed, they used totally the wrong statistical methods, and the treatment group started out with higher D levels. This RCT on NAC showed no benefit at all when used as a treatment on hospitalized patients.

There does seem to be a strong correlation between low D levels and severity of illness, but you can't remedy that by suddenly taking huge doses after you're sick. It takes a while to get levels up to where they should be even with a good, fairly high-dose daily supplement.

Personally I would not stay with any doctor or medical group that recommended a "protocol" that is not based on science and is being peddled by the likes of the FLCCCA.

 

Yeah, that's why I was very pleased when the last time I got my vitamin D level checked, it was something like 63.  I work very hard to maintain decent levels of D.

Vitamin C and zinc are water soluble, I think, so that's harder to keep up?  

I will confess I don't take zinc routinely, even tho it's got some decent anti viral evidence in general because I hate the way it tastes, even the capsules that aren't supposed to have a taste.  

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

C, D, zinc, and NAC are all good for the immune system, but you need to make sure your levels are where they should be before you get sick. I have not seen any good evidence that taking massive doses once you're already sick do any good. The Spanish study that so many people (including John Campbell and his followers) tout as proof that large doses of D work as a post-infection treatment was retracted after it was revealed that the study was not randomized as claimed, they used totally the wrong statistical methods, and the treatment group started out with higher D levels. This RCT on NAC showed no benefit at all when used as a treatment on hospitalized patients.

There does seem to be a strong correlation between low D levels and severity of illness, but you can't remedy that by suddenly taking huge doses after you're sick. It takes a while to get levels up to where they should be even with a good, fairly high-dose daily supplement.

Personally I would not stay with any doctor or medical group that recommended a "protocol" that is not based on science and is being peddled by the likes of the FLCCCA.

 

Right.  And low D many be a proxy for general poor health and frailty.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

What do you mean by this?

 

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

She's referring to the guy on Twitter who posted a refutation of papers on Vitamin D, which I pointed out was based on confusing two totally different measurements. She's not referring to Pierre Kory and the MATH+ protocol thing.

I was confused. I was referring to Pierre Kroy and the MATH+ protocol thing. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Bambam said:

Just FYI, it is also used topically for humans for rosacea.  

But people are not getting the topical form for Covid. 

[Ausmumof3]

11 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

I was confused. I was referring to Pierre Kroy and the MATH+ protocol thing. 

Ah, no worries. I was posting early and mayn’t have been super clear.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

I have an acquaintance who refuses to vaccinate.  Because he is sure that his amazing natural diet, physical fitness, and all the vitamins he takes are going to protect him.  that's the kind of harm I'm talking about.

My brother's wife is an "alternative health" person. So no vaccines, and is actually making my brother stay away from our mom for eight weeks starting tomorrow because she is getting her Moderna booster, and sister in law thinks the vaccine comes with some sort of zombie bacteria that lays dormant until the government "activates" it. 🙄

She thinks she can cure E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G. with vegetables, vitamin c, and essential oils. Sigh. My brother is type 2 and has had a stroke and a heart attack. And of course, he believes her crap. (I wish she could be put in jail for her foul medical advice.) So no vaccine, no mask, no nothing, just taking vitamin C and snorting diffused essential oils. He hasn't gotten covid yet mostly because he is IT and has a permanent work remote situation. However, it is only a matter of time because she sees "clients" in her voodoo shop and is exposed. Our county has ticked up really badly, some of the worst statistics yet.

They are just so convinced. 

Vegetables, vitamin c, and essential oils. I just can't wrap my brain around the depth of their stupid. But, I guess the bright spot is she is against all allopathic medicine in every situation, even for animals so she won't be stuffing him full of ivermectin from TSC. She is still mad at him for being treated for his stroke and heart attack at the hospital. She thinks she could have rubbed oils into his temples and healed his brain, and then had him drink some potion to stop the heart attack. 

My head hurts when I think about it too much. I swear it makes my BP go up!

[busymama7]

4 hours ago, wathe said:

Vitamins don't fix covid.

 

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

[Ausmumof3]

19 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

I’m so glad to hear you are feeling so much better.  I’ve been wondering how you were doing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

Hopefully this will come out coherently because I am thinking aloud, but I think that you need to separate treatment for an active Covid case vs the aftermath of long Covid. Long Covid is going to involve building up the immune system etc. but Covid treatments (HCWs tell me if I am correct) focus on calming the cytokine storm from an overactive immune system. And in the case of the new antivirals coming down the pipeline, they focus on interrupting the ability of the virus from replicating. So I really don’t think that they can be mushed together. 

[busymama7]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Hopefully this will come out coherently because I am thinking aloud, but I think that you need to separate treatment for an active Covid case vs the aftermath of long Covid. Long Covid is going to involve building up the immune system etc. but Covid treatments (HCWs tell me if I am correct) focus on calming the cytokine storm from an overactive immune system. And in the case of the new antivirals coming down the pipeline, they focus on interrupting the ability of the virus from replicating. So I really don’t think that they can be mushed together. 

Oh I agree completely.  An active case isn't the same.  I was using my example of someone who KNOWS vitamins and supplements make a difference in health. And ignoring that in favor of only treating the virus without looking closely at the health of the host is making a big mistake.  And I don't believe regular medical training really teaches this.  My long covid case is only one example. I've self treated so many things as has my family members or people I know because taking a pill is just not always the answer.  

I think the medical system would reach these people easier if they acknowledged the importance of vitamin supplementation etc instead of only pushing the vaccine and what treatments they currently have.  I know this to be true because I see the conversations.  There is a lack of trust based on personal experience. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

37 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Oh I agree completely.  An active case isn't the same.  I was using my example of someone who KNOWS vitamins and supplements make a difference in health. And ignoring that in favor of only treating the virus without looking closely at the health of the host is making a big mistake.  And I don't believe regular medical training really teaches this.  My long covid case is only one example. I've self treated so many things as has my family members or people I know because taking a pill is just not always the answer.  

I think the medical system would reach these people easier if they acknowledged the importance of vitamin supplementation etc instead of only pushing the vaccine and what treatments they currently have.  I know this to be true because I see the conversations.  There is a lack of trust based on personal experience. 

This is why I have both a naturopathic doc and an allopathic doc. Both bring different things to the table. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, busymama7 said:

 

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

  

Can you share what you are doing? 

47 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

 

I think the medical system would reach these people easier if they acknowledged the importance of vitamin supplementation etc instead of only pushing the vaccine and what treatments they currently have.  I know this to be true because I see the conversations.  There is a lack of trust based on personal experience. 

This is why I am for complementary medicine, rather than alternative medicine. These ideas should work together, not against each other. As Dr. Weil once said, he takes echinacea for a cold, but if he gets in a car accident, he wants a trauma surgeon! 

[Dmmetler]

My immunologist and Endo did up my protocol on things that were "can't hurt, might help" in both building up the immune system and reducing the chance of an overreaction. So things like getting D up to optimal, C, B complex, magnesium and zinc, etc. Also, since I have a history of clotting issues, low dose aspirin.  For me, the goal is always to keep me off of steroids, which means keeping my immune system happy. We also increased my antihistamines until I was vaccinated, although we've gone back to a normal protocol this year-the goal there was to keep my respiratory system from being quite as fertile ground for virus replication. 

 

They were clear that this didn't replace the need for vaccinafion, distancing, wearing good masks, and generally being as safe as I can be  (or my other regular meds for that matter) and if I get COVID, I suspect I'll be getting a referral for monoclonal ASAP. 

[busymama7]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Can you share what you are doing? 

This is why I am for complementary medicine, rather than alternative medicine. These ideas should work together, not against each other. As Dr. Weil once said, he takes echinacea for a cold, but if he gets in a car accident, he wants a trauma surgeon! 

My symptoms are different than your sister's although maybe my extreme sound and light sensitivity and brain fog are neurological in nature. Probably since losing taste and smell is and I did.   My major complaints that have improved are muscles aches/pain and fatigue. Brain fog and light and sound sensitivity are better too though.

This is what I am on:

Vitamin D (15,000 iui guided by 4x a year blood work. We don't know why I need that much but I do)

DHEA 50 mg(for hormones, have PCOS)

Vitamin B12, methycolabalimin form,  I have a genetic defect like MTHFR (well I have that one too) that doesn't allow me to absorb B12.  This is a bioavailable form. 5000mcg split in two doses, morning and 2 pm

Zinc (chelated) 30 mg

Querticin 500 mg

Liposomal vitamin C 500 mg 2x a day(with liver)

Dessicated liver capsules, 2 twice a day (these plus liquid chlorophyll got me out of bed when I was bedridden about 2 months after covid.  Within a day.  It was shocking. I couldn't even sit up until I started them.  I ran out last month and didn't realize how much the liver was helping.  Deer liver, dehydrated is helping a friend with long covid but I have texture issues and appreciate the capsules). Covid seems to be causing some kind of anemia but my hemoglobin and hematocrit were normal. It might be related to the B12 issue as I didn't add that until around May after my experience with what I assume was severe anemia in January.  That is why I didn't worry too much when I ran out of the liver(figuring getting B12 level up per blood work would have fixed anemia) but adding it back absolutely gave me more energy and a bit clearer head.  CBC normal and has been so who knows.  All I know is I need it daily to function. 

Low dose naltrexone, 2 mg 2x a day (prescription, compounded). This reduced the flu like muscle aches a lot. It is used for autoimmune which some experts are saying all long covid is AI. 

Omega 3-6-9 3 capsules, split 

 

Ok then last month I added these after talking to my sister with AI issues. I feel it kicked me out of what I think was an extended flair after my 2nd vaccine.   I am now functioning better but concerned about another flare. 

Thorne meriva-Sf curcumin phytosome 500 mg, 2 capsules split 

Resveratrol 1000mg 

NAC- N-acetyl Cystine 600 mg (from Swanson, Amazon stopped selling it....enter conspiracy theory I don't give a crap about but who knows why it's harder to get now.  Seems helpful)

Ubiquinol (form of CoQ10) 100mg although I've started to take 200 to see if I can get feeling even better.

Magnesium glycinate 400 mg (at night)

I think that's it.  Its a ton and annoying but it really is making a difference.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, busymama7 said:

Dessicated liver capsules, 2 twice a day (these plus liquid chlorophyll got me out of bed when I was bedridden about 2 months after covid.  Within a day.  It was shocking. I couldn't even sit up until I started them.

Where do you get these, and are there any downsides? I had a naturopath give me a dessicated bovine adrenal supplement once, but I decided not to take it after reading about it. I think deer liver sounds pretty safe though. I've been chronically wiped out since a viral illness a year and a half ago and none of the iron supplements I've tried have agreed with me. If I could find a way to take liver, that seems helpful.

[wathe]

7 hours ago, busymama7 said:

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

Yes, I was talking about acute covid.  

I am glad that you are finally feeling better.

Using vitamins in place of proven medical prevention (vaccines) and  treatment for acute covid is absolutely happening, with tragic consequences.  @TCB and I see the consequences, over and over again, up close and personal.  I can't speak for TCB, but I'm tired of watching people die because vitamins!.  It's horrible.

I don't think that anyone knows what works for long covid.  Which is not surprising: I don't think long covid has been adequately defined yet, and certainly the pathophys isn't yet understood. I think we will get there, but it will take years.

Western medicine, like all disciplines, has limits.  Management of acute infections and critical illness is something it does very well - such as keeping super-sick covid patients alive, and preventing them from getting super-sick in the first place (vaccines!).  Management of undefined chronic illness is not one of its strengths.   

To state that doctors don't address nutrition, though, simply isn't true. Glycemic index (invented by a professor who researches and teaches nutrition at a world-class medical school - his lectures were fantastic), transfatty acids link to dyslipidemia, fluoride and dental health, soluble fibre effect on lipid metabolism, cow's milk anemia in infants, salt intake and hypertension, calcium and osteoporosis, infant formula - the list goes on and on and on.  Primary care docs deal with nutrition all day long.

Western medicine absolutely includes the idea that vitamins are important for health.  I've never meant a MD who would disagree with this.  Scurvy, pellagra, beri-beri, ricketts, goitre, all addressed by traditional western medicine and fixed with vitamins or essential minerals.  Vitamin D and iron supplementation for infants, adding vitamin D to milk, enriching flour with b-vitamins, calcium and vitamin D to prevent osteoporosis, vitamin K administration to newborns - these are all western medicine ideas. Heck, vitamins themselves are a western medicine concept.

MDs do tend to be skeptical of the supplement market.  I think that's different than nutrition.  It's largely unregulated with no evidence of efficacy required to bring products to market - the opposite of what western medicine strives for (evidence-based, proven efficacy).  This is the domain of naturopaths and chiropractors.  Which is fine!

I'm always mildly surprised, though, when people are disappointed that their MD stays within their scope, and then interpret that as their MD not wanting to help them.  

Edited November 11, 2021 by wathe

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, wathe said:

I'm always mildly surprised, though, when people are disappointed that their MD stays within their scope, and then interpret that as their MD not wanting to help them.  

Yes.  My allopathic doc, who is an excellent allopathic doc, struggles with my chronic illness.  He can, and does suggest the obvious lifestyle helps including a healthy diet and exercise but he knows his limitations.  He will often ask me what my naturopathic doc suggests for my chronic pain/illness management and encourages me to follow his advice. 

That said, the best naturopathic docs I've had were ones who still took a scientific approach to medicine.  I've been burned by those who treat with "crystals" and other woo.  Definitely give me supplements, but give me a bloodtest (if there is one) first.  Sometimes we will do a trial on something when tests show that I'm borderline - where a conservative allopathic doc might not treat but my naturopathic doctor is going by symptoms. 

As far as chiropractors go, in my state (and I suspect a lot of states) they are only supposed to adjust your spine.  They are not supposed to be treating with supplements or providing broader treatment.  I would not trust one who went out of his lane. 

Covid 19 is still a novel illness.  We certainly know more than we did at the start of 2020, but there is still so much that we don't know or are just starting to explore.   Medicine has always been an art as much as a science - I know that I've never been a textbook case and doctors do need to make educated guesses at times.  But of course, the guiding principle is "first, do no harm".  And with Covid, providing "placebos" like Ivermectin (my opinion), is harmful even at human doses because it gives a false sense of security with a communicable disease. 

[busymama7]

8 hours ago, KSera said:

Where do you get these, and are there any downsides? I had a naturopath give me a dessicated bovine adrenal supplement once, but I decided not to take it after reading about it. I think deer liver sounds pretty safe though. I've been chronically wiped out since a viral illness a year and a half ago and none of the iron supplements I've tried have agreed with me. If I could find a way to take liver, that seems helpful.

Perfect Supplements – Perfect Desiccated Liver – 120 Capsules - Undefatted Beef Liver – Natural Source of Protein, Iron, Vitamins A & B https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J47LEMS/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_4C8CHZ5PMNDJEHRZK24Q

I'm not aware of downsides.  Eating liver from a healthy animal fresh is probably the best but I cant so capsules it is!

 

[kbutton]

I think geography influences medicine more than we'd like to admit. I've only recently been able to find a doctor that seems to practice any kind of standard of care while also listening to what my body is doing, but some of you seem to have your choice of practitioners who are decent. I had one clinician that is probably a good doctor, but when things didn't show up on my bloodwork according to my symptoms, I got "the look" that meant he was skeptical about my symptoms, so I stopped seeing him. There is no point in going to a practitioner that has decided you must be making stuff up because his tests don't turn up anything out of place. Years later, those specific symptoms went almost entirely away when I went GF (long story, wasn't planning to, did elimination diet). 

10 hours ago, wathe said:

Western medicine absolutely includes the idea that vitamins are important for health.  I've never meant a MD who would disagree with this.

Hmm...DH is a midlevel practitioner, and he had an instructor in school that said that vitamins just make expensive pee. My previous doctor wouldn't test my Vitamin D while insisting that I take it willy nilly because we have cloudy winters here. This is after I told her that my mother needs testing because she's low without supplements but then goes sky high with a supplement. 

I would also posit that some of us have slim ranges of tolerance for small variations in vitamin status, blood pressure, etc. that make us far more miserable than someone else would be at that level. I think it's either biologically programmed that our optimum is different or we have something else going on in our bodies that is responding to those tiny fluctuations in a negative way.

[wathe]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

 

Hmm...DH is a midlevel practitioner, and he had an instructor in school that said that vitamins just make expensive pee. My previous doctor wouldn't test my Vitamin D while insisting that I take it willy nilly because we have cloudy winters here. This is after I told her that my mother needs testing because she's low without supplements but then goes sky high with a supplement. 

 

I think it's important to distiguish between the idea that vitamins are important for health (they are - they are literally vital) and the practice of vitamin supplementation, particularly indiscriminate vitamin supplementation.  

I've heard the "expensive pee" sentiment regarding indiscriminate vitamin supplementation before - and it's not wrong.  The story you relate about your MD and vitamin D is actually following best evidence:  that vitamin D screening is generally not clinically useful, and that supplementation in northern latitudes is appropriate and safe. Exceptions for certain at-risk populations apply.  It does not mean that the MD doesn't think that vitamins aren't important.

Edited November 11, 2021 by wathe

[wathe]

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by wathe

[Corraleno]

In my entire life I have only had two doctors who knew anything at all about nutrition, and they are both female DOs, not MDs.  

When we were struggling to get DS diagnosed with what turned out to be Lyme disease, one of the doctors ran a whole slew of tests including D3 — DS's level was 12 ng/ml, which is severe deficiency. Like that is rickets level, bordering on psychosis level. Not only did the doctor not mention it, after I looked at the test results myself and specifically asked him about it, he insisted that the level "wasn't that bad" but I could give DS 800 IU/day if I was concerned about it. That prompted me to ask my own MD to test my D3, which she resisted, claiming it was unnecessary since we lived in the desert and got plenty of sun. I insisted she order the test and my level was 10! She said that was "a little low" and I could take 1000 IU if I wanted to. IMO telling patients who have severe vitamin D deficiencies that it's really not a problem and there's no need to supplement unless they really want to is medical malpractice. 

[Terabith]

8 minutes ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

I don't think it's really standard here.  I got mine tested after I got pneumonia and just couldn't get over it and was catching loads of upper respiratory viruses.  My level was 13.  And my mom mentioned that she'd gotten her vitamin D levels checked because of some weird symptom, and hers was also very low.  So, with that history in mind, our fairly crunchy pediatrician tested my kids' levels, and my oldest kid's level was 7, which was a big freaking deal and had major impacts on both physical and mental health.  (Although honestly, I'm annoyed, because he refused to prescribe an antidepressant or refer us to psychiatry until we got their level up over 30, and that delay was really, really bad.  I wish to high heavens he had done both.) So now our levels are tested every few years, but only because of history.  

My husband's doctor does not check his, even though he does not drink milk and avoids the sun because his skin is so fair he literally can get a sunburn walking across a parking lot.  

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

In my entire life I have only had two doctors who knew anything at all about nutrition, and they are both female DOs, not MDs.  

When we were struggling to get DS diagnosed with what turned out to be Lyme disease, one of the doctors ran a whole slew of tests including D3 — DS's level was 12 ng/ml, which is severe deficiency. Like that is rickets level, bordering on psychosis level. Not only did the doctor not mention it, after I looked at the test results myself and specifically asked him about it, he insisted that the level "wasn't that bad" but I could give DS 800 IU/day if I was concerned about it. That prompted me to ask my own MD to test my D3, which she resisted, claiming it was unnecessary since we lived in the desert and got plenty of sun. I insisted she order the test and my level was 10! She said that was "a little low" and I could take 1000 IU if I wanted to. IMO telling patients who have severe vitamin D deficiencies that it's really not a problem and there's no need to supplement unless they really want to is medical malpractice. 

I agree.  I was also frustrated, because nobody in my family's levels would budge with either the prescription supplementation or standard supplements.  Chiropractors not staying in their lane bothers me, but it was only when I mentioned the fact that I couldn't get anyone in my family's vitamin D levels over 20 even taking high levels of supplement and he suggested a formulation that combined vitamin D with K that we got any movement at all.  

I do not think there are any naturopaths in my area.  

[Corraleno]

44 minutes ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

Those guidelines say that routine screening for Vit D isn't recommended because everyone in Canada should be supplementing: "Because Canada is located above the 35° North latitude, the average Canadian’s exposure to sunlight is insufficient to maintain adequate Vitamin D levels, especially during the winter. Therefore, measuring serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels is not necessary because routine supplementation with Vitamin D is appropriate for the general population." 

I'm surprised by the recommendation that annual blood tests should not be run for people who don't have symptoms — like it's better to just wait until someone is already diabetic or hypertensive or has heart disease rather than catch and correct the issue before it's a serious problem requiring drugs to manage it. That makes no sense to me and doesn't seem like it would save money in the long run.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I agree.  I was also frustrated, because nobody in my family's levels would budge with either the prescription supplementation or standard supplements.  Chiropractors not staying in their lane bothers me, but it was only when I mentioned the fact that I couldn't get anyone in my family's vitamin D levels over 20 even taking high levels of supplement and he suggested a formulation that combined vitamin D with K that we got any movement at all.  

Same here — before I added K2 I struggled to get my levels above the 30s even with large daily doses of D3. Added K2 and my levels have been in the 60s & 70s ever since, which seems to be a good spot for me. DS and I both have a mutation that messes with D levels, and clearly we can't get enough from the sun since we were severely deficient while living in the desert and getting several hours of sun every day year round! I don't know why it isn't included in all routine annual blood panels, it's so important for so many different aspects of physical and mental health. 

When we moved to Oregon we ended up with a DO totally by accident, she was one of the few doctors at the large local practice that was taking new patients (all the other practitioners there are MDs or NPs). She was as medically trained as an MD but took a much more holistic approach and really listened. I assume she was trained in some kind of osteopathic manipulation, but she didn't do any of that with me or any of my family members. She was amazing and I literally cried when I found out she moved to another state. She was replaced with another DO and so far I have been really happy with her too. No woo, just medicine from a more holistic perspective.

 

[Ausmumof3]

On 11/11/2021 at 7:13 AM, Corraleno said:

I did. Hopefully he will take it down.

Quite disappointed to see there doesn’t seem to have been any response to this yet.  

[wathe]

48 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Those guidelines say that routine screening for Vit D isn't recommended because everyone in Canada should be supplementing: "Because Canada is located above the 35° North latitude, the average Canadian’s exposure to sunlight is insufficient to maintain adequate Vitamin D levels, especially during the winter. Therefore, measuring serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels is not necessary because routine supplementation with Vitamin D is appropriate for the general population." 

 

Right.  Screening doesn't change outcomes here, so we don't do it.

Interestingly, the US preventive task force "concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the balance of benefits and harms of screening for vitamin D deficiency in asymptomatic adults"  So neither for nor against.  I wonder if the recommendation would be different if US healthcare were publicly funded.  Screening is expensive.  Screening programs need to measurably positively affect outcomes (and not cause harm) in order to justify the cost. 

The US medical culture in general seems to investigate and treat more aggressively for all things medical that Canadians do.  Canadian guidelines are generally more conservative than American ones -  there is definitely a culture difference. Despite this, US health outcomes aren't better, I don't think.   

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

Screening isn't routine here unless there's a particular reason. However, my mum's gastro screened because 'everyone has low vitamin D in this horrible climate.' Her levels were fine.

Supplementation is recommended for everyone in Scotland  - even southern Scotland is on a similar latitude to the Alaskan peninsula. 

[popmom]

On 11/10/2021 at 10:02 AM, Jean in Newcastle said:

Ok. It’s also a human dewormer. Happy now?  

Ha! Except of course we don't deworm humans. That term is for vet medicine. Humans get anti parasitic medication. 

[wathe]

4 minutes ago, popmom said:

Ha! Except of course we don't deworm humans. That term is for vet medicine. Humans get anti parasitic medication. 

Sure we do!  As per WHO:

https://www.who.int/elena/titles/full_recommendations/deworming/en/

[popmom]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Those guidelines say that routine screening for Vit D isn't recommended because everyone in Canada should be supplementing: "Because Canada is located above the 35° North latitude, the average Canadian’s exposure to sunlight is insufficient to maintain adequate Vitamin D levels, especially during the winter. Therefore, measuring serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels is not necessary because routine supplementation with Vitamin D is appropriate for the general population." 

I'm surprised by the recommendation that annual blood tests should not be run for people who don't have symptoms — like it's better to just wait until someone is already diabetic or hypertensive or has heart disease rather than catch and correct the issue before it's a serious problem requiring drugs to manage it. That makes no sense to me and doesn't seem like it would save money in the long run.

I just ordered K2 a few days ago. I've never taken it before. But I need to get my vitamin D up, too. 

I'm using the Cronometer app to keep up with everything I'm getting--in foods and supplements. I upgraded the app, and it even tells me if I'm getting minerals in the proper ratios. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by popmom

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

When we moved to Oregon we ended up with a DO totally by accident, she was one of the few doctors at the large local practice that was taking new patients (all the other practitioners there are MDs or NPs). She was as medically trained as an MD but took a much more holistic approach and really listened. I assume she was trained in some kind of osteopathic manipulation, but she didn't do any of that with me or any of my family members. She was amazing and I literally cried when I found out she moved to another state. She was replaced with another DO and so far I have been really happy with her too. No woo, just medicine from a more holistic perspective.

We have TONS of DOs here, and they are hit and miss like the MDs, though they do tend to have the reputation you're experiencing.

One particular hospital system here seems to have more DOs than is typical. They are a Seventh Day Adventist system, and I wonder if they get more DOs because of their dietary views? IDK

 

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, wathe said:

Screening is expensive.  Screening programs need to measurably positively affect outcomes (and not cause harm) in order to justify the cost. 

A standard Vitamin D test (Quest or LabCorp) is around $70-80, and causes no harm. The last time I saw a doctor for anything other than an annual physical, my D level was 24.5, and once my levels were good I stopped taking sleep and anxiety meds too, so the insurance company actually saves far more than the cost of an annual test. And even though the increase in quality of life counts for nothing in those sorts of cost-benefit analyses, it matters a lot to me.

The problem is that medical systems are focused on disease, not health, even though optimizing heath would prevent a lot of disease. Vitamin D deficiency is linked to heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, increased risk of infection, several types of cancer, depression, anxiety, and osteoporosis, so a $70 test seems like a pretty cheap way to either rule out or fix a basic issue that has incredibly wide-ranging implications for human health. 

Western medicine seems to hyperfocus on heart disease so doctors will watch BP and cholesterol numbers like a hawk and jump to prescribing meds even before they're needed, while simultaneously shrugging off the possibility of even severe vitamin deficiencies as "eh, you can take a pill if you're worried about it, no need for testing." That just seems backwards to me.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Corraleno

[Acadie]

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

[Selkie]

5 hours ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

I go to a nurse practitioner and she includes vitamin D screening in routine yearly bloodwork. I'm in the US, in the midwest. My D level was 47 and she commented that that was much higher than most of her patients, so apparently a lot of people are deficient around here.

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I take this one, which is vegan, but if you're not looking for a plant-based one, you can probably find one that is cheaper. Look for 5000 IU D3 with around 100-125 mcg K2, and ideally you want the MK7 form of K2. I prefer an oil capsule, but I think powder capsules are fine if you're taking it with food that has some fat:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07255MPRN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Selkie]

49 minutes ago, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I take these women's daily multivitamins that have 2000 IU D3 and 30 mcg K2.

https://smile.amazon.com/Dr-Fuhrmans-Womens-Daily-Formula/dp/B008RAA3HK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3I9GD27SFUC1C&keywords=dr+fuhrman+womens+daily+multivitamin&qid=1636684363&sprefix=dr+fuhrman%2Caps%2C221&sr=8-5

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I take 6000 IU of D3 with 240 micrograms of K2 every day.  It keeps my levels around 60.  

[wathe]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

A standard Vitamin D test (Quest or LabCorp) is around $70-80, and causes no harm. The last time I saw a doctor for anything other than an annual physical, my D level was 24.5, and once my levels were good I stopped taking sleep and anxiety meds too, so the insurance company actually saves far more than the cost of an annual test. And even though the increase in quality of life counts for nothing in those sorts of cost-benefit analyses, it matters a lot to me.

The problem is that medical systems are focused on disease, not health, even though optimizing heath would prevent a lot of disease. Vitamin D deficiency is linked to heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, increased risk of infection, several types of cancer, depression, anxiety, and osteoporosis, so a $70 test seems like a pretty cheap way to either rule out or fix a basic issue that has incredibly wide-ranging implications for human health. 

Western medicine seems to hyperfocus on heart disease so doctors will watch BP and cholesterol numbers like a hawk and jump to prescribing meds even before they're needed, while simultaneously shrugging off the possibility of even severe vitamin deficiencies as "eh, you can take a pill if you're worried about it, no need for testing." That just seems backwards to me.

I don't know.  $80 per person annually for an entire population is a lot of money - in the billions for a population of 35 million.  All to find out what we already know: that supplementation is likely required for everyone.  So to just skip the tests and recommend that everyone supplement with D is a sensible and cost efficient strategy.

All screening programs can cause harm, even ones that seem benign.  There are harms associated with false positives and false negatives, and harms from diverting energy and time into interventions that don't make a difference.  All these harms get magnified when screening entire populations.

Vitamin D research is still ongoing. I  think that we know that lower levels are correlated with poor health, BUT: 

I don't think we actually know if that's causal, or whether lower D levels are a proxy for general poor health and frailty - that perhaps those in poor health stay indoors a lot and therefore have lower D levels as a result of their health status rather than as a cause. (excluding ricketts and osteomalacia, of course)

Optimum levels have not been conclusively established, even for bone health.

I don't think that it's been established that supplementation regimens that target particular numbers make any meaningful difference in outcomes as compared to general supplementation without screening blood levels.

All of these need to be established and supported by evidence in order to support a publicly funded population based screening program.  As of yet, they haven't been, I don't think.

(Vitamin D is the only supplement my family takes, and we tend to skip it in the summer.  We support our nutrition, to paraphrase Michael Pollan, by eating (real) food, mostly plants, not too much)

 

[TCB]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:32 AM, wathe said:

Yes, I was talking about acute covid.  

I am glad that you are finally feeling better.

Using vitamins in place of proven medical prevention (vaccines) and  treatment for acute covid is absolutely happening, with tragic consequences.  @TCB and I see the consequences, over and over again, up close and personal.  I can't speak for TCB, but I'm tired of watching people die because vitamins!.  It's horrible.

I don't think that anyone knows what works for long covid.  Which is not surprising: I don't think long covid has been adequately defined yet, and certainly the pathophys isn't yet understood. I think we will get there, but it will take years.

Western medicine, like all disciplines, has limits.  Management of acute infections and critical illness is something it does very well - such as keeping super-sick covid patients alive, and preventing them from getting super-sick in the first place (vaccines!).  

I agree it’s horrible to see people relying on these things that are not keeping them safe, and turning down the vaccines that might well have kept them safe.

We have had family member after family member ask the Drs what they could have done differently to have avoided serious illness and death for their family member, and when the dr says vaccination may well have helped they say oh no we couldn’t do that. 

[Terabith]

How Does This End?  Thinking About Covid and Normalcy

With the exception of children under 5, which I think is a BIG oversight, I'm wondering what we think about this?  

 

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Terabith said:

How Does This End?  Thinking About Covid and Normalcy

With the exception of children under 5, which I think is a BIG oversight, I'm wondering what we think about this?  

 

Link leads back to this thread. Maybe this one? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/12/briefing/pandemic-return-nomal-coronavirus.html

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

Link leads back to this thread. Maybe this one? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/12/briefing/pandemic-return-nomal-coronavirus.html

Thanks.  Sheesh.  I'm having all sorts of weird computer issues today!

[bookbard]

3 hours ago, TCB said:

We have had family member after family member ask the Drs what they could have done differently to have avoided serious illness and death for their family member, and when the dr says vaccination may well have helped they say oh no we couldn’t do that. 

Were they really saying death was preferable to their loved one being vaccinated? What is the reasoning behind that?