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Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

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14 minutes ago, wathe said:

Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

There was also another big ivermectin study retraction last week. Another case of fabricated data, where the data was copied and pasted repeatedly. With all the falsified data studies removed from the meta analysis, there remains no benefit found from ivermectin so far. 
https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/02/ivermectin-covid-19-study-retracted-authors-blame-file-mixup/

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1 hour ago, wathe said:

Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

Too bad none of the people who have been touting Kory's "expertise" and pushing his MATH+ protocol will admit he's a fraud — they'll just insist this is a case of censorship and suppression of The Truth that big pharma and the evil government don't want you to know.

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Recent study by the Texas Dept of Health & Human Services comparing covid infection and death rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated people:

The infection rate was 13 times higher in the unvaccinated

The death rate was 20 times higher in the unvaccinated

The death rate for people in their 40s was 55 times higher in the unvaccinated

https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-status.aspx

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It would be helpful if we could stop referring to Ivermectin as an “animal dewormer” primarily. That is just incorrect. We don’t have to resort to that sort of mischaracterization to acknowledge that it’s not necessarily a viable treatment for COVID-19. Ivermectin is in fact a very safe and invaluable treatment FOR HUMANS against some horrible diseases. 
 

Carry on. 

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3 hours ago, wathe said:

Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

Thanks.  disappointing but not very surprising to see this

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5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Thanks.  disappointing but not very surprising to see this

And to me really annoying. Would love to see the people devoted to Ivermectin, and saying horrible things about hospitals who aren’t prescribing it, admit that they may have been wrong, even people on this board. But I don’t for one minute think that it will happen. There will be complete silence, then they will move on to the next fad medication, and excoriate Drs for not leaping right in and prescribing this “miracle drug”. I can’t tell you how fed up it makes me.

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4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I've been surprised that I'm not seeing fluvoxamine being touted as a cure all.  It's good really good evidence behind it.  

Well that’s too simple. It can’t work because it isn’t being “suppressed”

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7 hours ago, popmom said:

It would be helpful if we could stop referring to Ivermectin as an “animal dewormer” primarily. That is just incorrect. We don’t have to resort to that sort of mischaracterization to acknowledge that it’s not necessarily a viable treatment for COVID-19. Ivermectin is in fact a very safe and invaluable treatment FOR HUMANS against some horrible diseases. 
 

Carry on. 

Ok. It’s also a human dewormer. Happy now?  

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7 hours ago, popmom said:

It would be helpful if we could stop referring to Ivermectin as an “animal dewormer” primarily. That is just incorrect. We don’t have to resort to that sort of mischaracterization to acknowledge that it’s not necessarily a viable treatment for COVID-19. Ivermectin is in fact a very safe and invaluable treatment FOR HUMANS against some horrible diseases. 
 

Carry on. 

I think the reason people say animal dewormer is because people are indeed frequently using the animal preparation for this, since it can be purchased over-the-counter. So, lots and lots of people (enough that it’s causing difficulties for people with actual farm animals) really actually are taking animal dewormer.

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2 hours ago, TCB said:

And to me really annoying. Would love to see the people devoted to Ivermectin, and saying horrible things about hospitals who aren’t prescribing it, admit that they may have been wrong, even people on this board. But I don’t for one minute think that it will happen. There will be complete silence, then they will move on to the next fad medication, and excoriate Drs for not leaping right in and prescribing this “miracle drug”. I can’t tell you how fed up it makes me.

Quoting myself to say I should hold off on being so annoyed until further info. I looked at a thread on Twitter from the guy linked up thread, and it seemed to say that Ivermectin wasn’t part of the protocol in the withdrawn paper. I don’t really get it, because it seems to say the study ended July 2021, and I thought they had been advocating Ivermectin since December 2020, but I don’t know so need to hold off commenting until I can read more.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

I think the reason people say animal dewormer is because people are indeed frequently using the animal preparation for this, since it can be purchased over-the-counter. So, lots and lots of people (enough that it’s causing difficulties for people with actual farm animals) really actually are taking animal dewormer.

Thank you. It is available otc for livestock and that is the formulation these loons are taking and in horse size doses too because apparentnLy they think they have quarter horse chromosomes lurking in their DNA. This is not the human formulation which requires prescription and docs are not prescribing. People are even trying to sneak the damn horse med into the hospitals around here so now there are no visitors allowed, back to hospital lockdown because of morons. I am tired of people defending them, and being all sensitive about the feel feels of people who are killing themselves and attempting to kill their loved ones out sheer, willful ignorance. So done.

It is livestock medicine. Horse reworked is the appropriate name for what it is people are O.D'ing on and melting their intestines and bowels with.

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9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:


This guy is worth a follow if you’re on Twitter for checking into Covid studies and retractions etc.

I agree that many of the papers on Vit D are weak, and the paper claiming that mortality risk from covid approaches zero at 50 ng/l is flawed, but this guy presents evidence in support of his argument that is not only flat out wrong, it suggests that he really doesn't know what he's talking about. He states:

"Moreover, looking at the graph closely shows how bad this analysis is. The mean value for vitamin D levels in most places varies, but even in European countries it’s often above 50ng/mL. However, this graph has every datapoint below 40ng/mL. The obvious reason here is that the authors only looked at studies of people who had been admitted to hospital, and were therefore far sicker than the general population — this makes any extrapolation to people who have not been hospitalized largely meaningless."

 I knew the bolded was wrong before I even clicked on the link to the data he's referencing, because I know that Europeans measure vitamin D in nmol/L, not ng/ml. He also mentions in a different paragraph that vitamin D levels in Switzerland were "46 ng/ml." In both cases, the papers he links to clearly state that the measurements are nmol/L, NOT ng/ml. The highest value listed in the paper he linked to support the claim that D levels in Europe are "often above 50 ng/ml" is 68.7 nmol/L — which works out to roughly 27 ng/ml. Anything below 30 ng/ml is considered vitamin D insufficiency, and it is nowhere near the 50 ng/ml the paper he is critiquing suggested would protect against covid.

When critiquing other people's data, it's really important to make sure that your entire refutation isn't based on an embarrassingly basic math error that clearly demonstrates you have no idea what you're talking about. 

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9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Thank you. It is available otc for livestock and that is the formulation these loons are taking and in horse size doses too because apparentnLy they think they have quarter horse chromosomes lurking in their DNA. This is not the human formulation which requires prescription and docs are not prescribing. People are even trying to sneak the damn horse med into the hospitals around here so now there are no visitors allowed, back to hospital lockdown because of morons. I am tired of people defending them, and being all sensitive about the feel feels of people who are killing themselves and attempting to kill their loved ones out sheer, willful ignorance. So done.

It is livestock medicine. Horse reworked is the appropriate name for what it is people are O.D'ing on and melting their intestines and bowels with.

Some people are getting the prescribed human version through some doctors.  My problem with that is that it's using the wrong medicine for the wrong thing.  If they get better, it isn't because of the Ivermectin.  How many studies do we need to show that it really doesn't help for this illness?  Covid19 is not a parasitic illness. 

(Not discounting the horrible situation you describe which I also believe is happening. ) 

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39 minutes ago, TCB said:

Quoting myself to say I should hold off on being so annoyed until further info. I looked at a thread on Twitter from the guy linked up thread, and it seemed to say that Ivermectin wasn’t part of the protocol in the withdrawn paper. I don’t really get it, because it seems to say the study ended July 2021, and I thought they had been advocating Ivermectin since December 2020, but I don’t know so need to hold off commenting until I can read more.

No, this wasn't an ivermectin paper.  Ivermectin was not one of the study drugs.  The study drugs were a cocktail of methylprednisolone, ascorbic acid, thiamine, vitamin D, heparin, atorvastatin, melatonin, zinc, and famotidine, and therapeutic plasma exchange.  I've read the original paper and the retraction from the journal in question. Viewable here (I think without paywall)

The MATH+ protocol does now include ivermectin though (added in October 2020, as per FLCCC website).   Many of the adjunct drugs on the current protocol are different than in the  retracted study (famotidine, atorvastatin, and zinc are gone, but ivermectin, nitazoxanide, and dual anti-androgen therapy have been added)

It was a paper by a guy who promotes dodgy protocols (including ivermectin protocols) with statements like this: " The MATH+ protocol potentially offers a life-saving approach to the management of hospitalized COVID-19 patients",  whose protocol has just been discredited.  Vitamins don't fix covid.

 

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I agree that many of the papers on Vit D are weak, and the paper claiming that mortality risk from covid approaches zero at 50 ng/l is flawed, but this guy presents evidence in support of his argument that is not only flat out wrong, it suggests that he really doesn't know what he's talking about. He states:

"Moreover, looking at the graph closely shows how bad this analysis is. The mean value for vitamin D levels in most places varies, but even in European countries it’s often above 50ng/mL. However, this graph has every datapoint below 40ng/mL. The obvious reason here is that the authors only looked at studies of people who had been admitted to hospital, and were therefore far sicker than the general population — this makes any extrapolation to people who have not been hospitalized largely meaningless."

 I knew the bolded was wrong before I even clicked on the link to the data he's referencing, because I know that Europeans measure vitamin D in nmol/L, not ng/ml. He also mentions in a different paragraph that vitamin D levels in Switzerland were "46 ng/ml." In both cases, the papers he links to clearly state that the measurements are nmol/L, NOT ng/ml. The highest value listed in the paper he linked to support the claim that D levels in Europe are "often above 50 ng/ml" is 68.7 nmol/L — which works out to roughly 27 ng/ml. Anything below 30 ng/ml is considered vitamin D insufficiency, and it is nowhere near the 50 ng/ml the paper he is critiquing suggested would protect against covid.

When critiquing other people's data, it's really important to make sure that your entire refutation isn't based on an embarrassingly basic math error that clearly demonstrates you have no idea what you're talking about. 

You could tell him 🙂 he would probably correct, retract as he has done before when he’s made errors.

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8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Someone who has made multiple errors that require retraction, who then does the same thing again without the proper credentials or proper research is not a benign source. 

She's referring to the guy on Twitter who posted a refutation of papers on Vitamin D, which I pointed out was based on confusing two totally different measurements. She's not referring to Pierre Kory and the MATH+ protocol thing.

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So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

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13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

I don't think so.  The retracted paper noted was retracted because the revised data analysis showed that MATH+ patients seems to do worse.

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1 minute ago, wathe said:

I don't think so.  The retracted paper noted was retracted because the revised data analysis showed that MATH+ patients seems to do worse.

Well, good to know.  I mean, I take vitamin D and melatonin every day anyway (because if I don't constantly supplement vitamin D, my levels drop down to like 2, which is not healthy, and melatonin because I'm a chronic insomniac.)

Would be nice if the physician's office would stop handing out the protocol to everyone getting tested though.  

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I mean, you probably won't cause yourself any harm if you take vitamins C and D, zinc and melatonin - those thing are pretty benign.  But I don't think there is much evidence to show that they actually help.  They certainly aren't a substitute for interventions that have been shown to be effective (like vaccination, for example)

The harm comes from when people use vitamins etc as a substitute for interventions that work.  

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Just now, Terabith said:

Well, good to know.  I mean, I take vitamin D and melatonin every day anyway (because if I don't constantly supplement vitamin D, my levels drop down to like 2, which is not healthy, and melatonin because I'm a chronic insomniac.)

Would be nice if the physician's office would stop handing out the protocol to everyone getting tested though.  

I don't know of any MD offices that are actually doing that here. ( I am constantly reminded on this board that the US is a very different place.)

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2 minutes ago, wathe said:

I mean, you probably won't cause yourself any harm if you take vitamins C and D, zinc and melatonin - those thing are pretty benign.  But I don't think there is much evidence to show that they actually help.  They certainly aren't a substitute for interventions that have been shown to be effective (like vaccination, for example)

The harm comes from when people use vitamins etc as a substitute for interventions that work.  

Oh, for sure.  

Aspirin, I have wondered about?  The blood thinning effect seems like it might be beneficial, but I haven't done a literature search.  

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22 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

I think the retracted paper was actually without ivermectin but don’t quote me on it I don’t have time to check right now.

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10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

C, D, zinc, and NAC are all good for the immune system, but you need to make sure your levels are where they should be before you get sick. I have not seen any good evidence that taking massive doses once you're already sick do any good. The Spanish study that so many people (including John Campbell and his followers) tout as proof that large doses of D work as a post-infection treatment was retracted after it was revealed that the study was not randomized as claimed, they used totally the wrong statistical methods, and the treatment group started out with higher D levels. This RCT on NAC showed no benefit at all when used as a treatment on hospitalized patients.

There does seem to be a strong correlation between low D levels and severity of illness, but you can't remedy that by suddenly taking huge doses after you're sick. It takes a while to get levels up to where they should be even with a good, fairly high-dose daily supplement.

Personally I would not stay with any doctor or medical group that recommended a "protocol" that is not based on science and is being peddled by the likes of the FLCCCA.

 

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1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

C, D, zinc, and NAC are all good for the immune system, but you need to make sure your levels are where they should be before you get sick. I have not seen any good evidence that taking massive doses once you're already sick do any good. The Spanish study that so many people (including John Campbell and his followers) tout as proof that large doses of D work as a post-infection treatment was retracted after it was revealed that the study was not randomized as claimed, they used totally the wrong statistical methods, and the treatment group started out with higher D levels. This RCT on NAC showed no benefit at all when used as a treatment on hospitalized patients.

There does seem to be a strong correlation between low D levels and severity of illness, but you can't remedy that by suddenly taking huge doses after you're sick. It takes a while to get levels up to where they should be even with a good, fairly high-dose daily supplement.

Personally I would not stay with any doctor or medical group that recommended a "protocol" that is not based on science and is being peddled by the likes of the FLCCCA.

 

Yeah, that's why I was very pleased when the last time I got my vitamin D level checked, it was something like 63.  I work very hard to maintain decent levels of D.

Vitamin C and zinc are water soluble, I think, so that's harder to keep up?  

I will confess I don't take zinc routinely, even tho it's got some decent anti viral evidence in general because I hate the way it tastes, even the capsules that aren't supposed to have a taste.  

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3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

C, D, zinc, and NAC are all good for the immune system, but you need to make sure your levels are where they should be before you get sick. I have not seen any good evidence that taking massive doses once you're already sick do any good. The Spanish study that so many people (including John Campbell and his followers) tout as proof that large doses of D work as a post-infection treatment was retracted after it was revealed that the study was not randomized as claimed, they used totally the wrong statistical methods, and the treatment group started out with higher D levels. This RCT on NAC showed no benefit at all when used as a treatment on hospitalized patients.

There does seem to be a strong correlation between low D levels and severity of illness, but you can't remedy that by suddenly taking huge doses after you're sick. It takes a while to get levels up to where they should be even with a good, fairly high-dose daily supplement.

Personally I would not stay with any doctor or medical group that recommended a "protocol" that is not based on science and is being peddled by the likes of the FLCCCA.

 

Right.  And low D many be a proxy for general poor health and frailty.

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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

What do you mean by this?

 

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

She's referring to the guy on Twitter who posted a refutation of papers on Vitamin D, which I pointed out was based on confusing two totally different measurements. She's not referring to Pierre Kory and the MATH+ protocol thing.

I was confused. I was referring to Pierre Kroy and the MATH+ protocol thing. 

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1 hour ago, wathe said:

I have an acquaintance who refuses to vaccinate.  Because he is sure that his amazing natural diet, physical fitness, and all the vitamins he takes are going to protect him.  that's the kind of harm I'm talking about.

My brother's wife is an "alternative health" person. So no vaccines, and is actually making my brother stay away from our mom for eight weeks starting tomorrow because she is getting her Moderna booster, and sister in law thinks the vaccine comes with some sort of zombie bacteria that lays dormant until the government "activates" it. 🙄

She thinks she can cure E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G. with vegetables, vitamin c, and essential oils. Sigh. My brother is type 2 and has had a stroke and a heart attack. And of course, he believes her crap. (I wish she could be put in jail for her foul medical advice.) So no vaccine, no mask, no nothing, just taking vitamin C and snorting diffused essential oils. He hasn't gotten covid yet mostly because he is IT and has a permanent work remote situation. However, it is only a matter of time because she sees "clients" in her voodoo shop and is exposed. Our county has ticked up really badly, some of the worst statistics yet.

They are just so convinced. 

Vegetables, vitamin c, and essential oils. I just can't wrap my brain around the depth of their stupid. But, I guess the bright spot is she is against all allopathic medicine in every situation, even for animals so she won't be stuffing him full of ivermectin from TSC. She is still mad at him for being treated for his stroke and heart attack at the hospital. She thinks she could have rubbed oils into his temples and healed his brain, and then had him drink some potion to stop the heart attack. 

My head hurts when I think about it too much. I swear it makes my BP go up!

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4 hours ago, wathe said:

Vitamins don't fix covid.

 

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

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19 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

I’m so glad to hear you are feeling so much better.  I’ve been wondering how you were doing.

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8 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

Hopefully this will come out coherently because I am thinking aloud, but I think that you need to separate treatment for an active Covid case vs the aftermath of long Covid. Long Covid is going to involve building up the immune system etc. but Covid treatments (HCWs tell me if I am correct) focus on calming the cytokine storm from an overactive immune system. And in the case of the new antivirals coming down the pipeline, they focus on interrupting the ability of the virus from replicating. So I really don’t think that they can be mushed together. 

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1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Hopefully this will come out coherently because I am thinking aloud, but I think that you need to separate treatment for an active Covid case vs the aftermath of long Covid. Long Covid is going to involve building up the immune system etc. but Covid treatments (HCWs tell me if I am correct) focus on calming the cytokine storm from an overactive immune system. And in the case of the new antivirals coming down the pipeline, they focus on interrupting the ability of the virus from replicating. So I really don’t think that they can be mushed together. 

Oh I agree completely.  An active case isn't the same.  I was using my example of someone who KNOWS vitamins and supplements make a difference in health. And ignoring that in favor of only treating the virus without looking closely at the health of the host is making a big mistake.  And I don't believe regular medical training really teaches this.  My long covid case is only one example. I've self treated so many things as has my family members or people I know because taking a pill is just not always the answer.  

I think the medical system would reach these people easier if they acknowledged the importance of vitamin supplementation etc instead of only pushing the vaccine and what treatments they currently have.  I know this to be true because I see the conversations.  There is a lack of trust based on personal experience. 

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37 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Oh I agree completely.  An active case isn't the same.  I was using my example of someone who KNOWS vitamins and supplements make a difference in health. And ignoring that in favor of only treating the virus without looking closely at the health of the host is making a big mistake.  And I don't believe regular medical training really teaches this.  My long covid case is only one example. I've self treated so many things as has my family members or people I know because taking a pill is just not always the answer.  

I think the medical system would reach these people easier if they acknowledged the importance of vitamin supplementation etc instead of only pushing the vaccine and what treatments they currently have.  I know this to be true because I see the conversations.  There is a lack of trust based on personal experience. 

This is why I have both a naturopathic doc and an allopathic doc. Both bring different things to the table. 

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1 hour ago, busymama7 said:

 

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

  

Can you share what you are doing? 

47 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

 

I think the medical system would reach these people easier if they acknowledged the importance of vitamin supplementation etc instead of only pushing the vaccine and what treatments they currently have.  I know this to be true because I see the conversations.  There is a lack of trust based on personal experience. 

This is why I am for complementary medicine, rather than alternative medicine. These ideas should work together, not against each other. As Dr. Weil once said, he takes echinacea for a cold, but if he gets in a car accident, he wants a trauma surgeon! 

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My immunologist and Endo did up my protocol on things that were "can't hurt, might help" in both building up the immune system and reducing the chance of an overreaction. So things like getting D up to optimal, C, B complex, magnesium and zinc, etc. Also, since I have a history of clotting issues, low dose aspirin.  For me, the goal is always to keep me off of steroids, which means keeping my immune system happy. We also increased my antihistamines until I was vaccinated, although we've gone back to a normal protocol this year-the goal there was to keep my respiratory system from being quite as fertile ground for virus replication. 

 

They were clear that this didn't replace the need for vaccinafion, distancing, wearing good masks, and generally being as safe as I can be  (or my other regular meds for that matter) and if I get COVID, I suspect I'll be getting a referral for monoclonal ASAP. 

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4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Can you share what you are doing? 

This is why I am for complementary medicine, rather than alternative medicine. These ideas should work together, not against each other. As Dr. Weil once said, he takes echinacea for a cold, but if he gets in a car accident, he wants a trauma surgeon! 

My symptoms are different than your sister's although maybe my extreme sound and light sensitivity and brain fog are neurological in nature. Probably since losing taste and smell is and I did.   My major complaints that have improved are muscles aches/pain and fatigue. Brain fog and light and sound sensitivity are better too though.

This is what I am on:

Vitamin D (15,000 iui guided by 4x a year blood work. We don't know why I need that much but I do)

DHEA 50 mg(for hormones, have PCOS)

Vitamin B12, methycolabalimin form,  I have a genetic defect like MTHFR (well I have that one too) that doesn't allow me to absorb B12.  This is a bioavailable form. 5000mcg split in two doses, morning and 2 pm

Zinc (chelated) 30 mg

Querticin 500 mg

Liposomal vitamin C 500 mg 2x a day(with liver)

Dessicated liver capsules, 2 twice a day (these plus liquid chlorophyll got me out of bed when I was bedridden about 2 months after covid.  Within a day.  It was shocking. I couldn't even sit up until I started them.  I ran out last month and didn't realize how much the liver was helping.  Deer liver, dehydrated is helping a friend with long covid but I have texture issues and appreciate the capsules). Covid seems to be causing some kind of anemia but my hemoglobin and hematocrit were normal. It might be related to the B12 issue as I didn't add that until around May after my experience with what I assume was severe anemia in January.  That is why I didn't worry too much when I ran out of the liver(figuring getting B12 level up per blood work would have fixed anemia) but adding it back absolutely gave me more energy and a bit clearer head.  CBC normal and has been so who knows.  All I know is I need it daily to function. 

Low dose naltrexone, 2 mg 2x a day (prescription, compounded). This reduced the flu like muscle aches a lot. It is used for autoimmune which some experts are saying all long covid is AI. 

Omega 3-6-9 3 capsules, split 

 

Ok then last month I added these after talking to my sister with AI issues. I feel it kicked me out of what I think was an extended flair after my 2nd vaccine.   I am now functioning better but concerned about another flare. 

Thorne meriva-Sf curcumin phytosome 500 mg, 2 capsules split 

Resveratrol 1000mg 

NAC- N-acetyl Cystine 600 mg (from Swanson, Amazon stopped selling it....enter conspiracy theory I don't give a crap about but who knows why it's harder to get now.  Seems helpful)

Ubiquinol (form of CoQ10) 100mg although I've started to take 200 to see if I can get feeling even better.

Magnesium glycinate 400 mg (at night)

I think that's it.  Its a ton and annoying but it really is making a difference.

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1 hour ago, busymama7 said:

Dessicated liver capsules, 2 twice a day (these plus liquid chlorophyll got me out of bed when I was bedridden about 2 months after covid.  Within a day.  It was shocking. I couldn't even sit up until I started them.

Where do you get these, and are there any downsides? I had a naturopath give me a dessicated bovine adrenal supplement once, but I decided not to take it after reading about it. I think deer liver sounds pretty safe though. I've been chronically wiped out since a viral illness a year and a half ago and none of the iron supplements I've tried have agreed with me. If I could find a way to take liver, that seems helpful.

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7 hours ago, busymama7 said:

 Vitamins shouldn't be used in place of medical treatments and vaccines.  Which is probably what you mean. But vitamins do make a difference in general health and discounting their effects isn't helpful either.  

As you may recall I had covid almost exactly a year ago.  I now have long covid.  I have had one Dr be completely rude and tell me nothing is wrong and another (at the long haul clinic) tell me that I'm experiencing what everyone else is which was kinda reassuring but have me exactly ZERO treatment options.    Neither discussed nutrition or supplements or anything.  I did my own research here and with family members with similar health issues (unrelated to covid but covid triggered AI issues for me) and have made a HUGE difference in how I feel.  Like I am about 85% of my normal health when last month I could barely get out of bed and was in such extreme pain all day I could barely move.  

I want Drs to help me but they don't. They don't address nutrition and only deal with vitamins when it is a severe deficiency.  

People like me and my family who have had to treat ourselves due to drs only treating with prescription medications and discounting symptoms that can't be treated as such are the ones who KNOW that health can be improved with supplements. And they are going to use them for covid and will likely not be reached by such broad statements as vitamins don't fix covid.    They aren't the only piece of the puzzle but they are A piece.  

Yes, I was talking about acute covid.  

I am glad that you are finally feeling better.

Using vitamins in place of proven medical prevention (vaccines) and  treatment for acute covid is absolutely happening, with tragic consequences.  @TCB and I see the consequences, over and over again, up close and personal.  I can't speak for TCB, but I'm tired of watching people die because vitamins!.  It's horrible.

I don't think that anyone knows what works for long covid.  Which is not surprising: I don't think long covid has been adequately defined yet, and certainly the pathophys isn't yet understood. I think we will get there, but it will take years.

Western medicine, like all disciplines, has limits.  Management of acute infections and critical illness is something it does very well - such as keeping super-sick covid patients alive, and preventing them from getting super-sick in the first place (vaccines!).  Management of undefined chronic illness is not one of its strengths.   

To state that doctors don't address nutrition, though, simply isn't true. Glycemic index (invented by a professor who researches and teaches nutrition at a world-class medical school - his lectures were fantastic), transfatty acids link to dyslipidemia, fluoride and dental health, soluble fibre effect on lipid metabolism, cow's milk anemia in infants, salt intake and hypertension, calcium and osteoporosis, infant formula - the list goes on and on and on.  Primary care docs deal with nutrition all day long.

Western medicine absolutely includes the idea that vitamins are important for health.  I've never meant a MD who would disagree with this.  Scurvy, pellagra, beri-beri, ricketts, goitre, all addressed by traditional western medicine and fixed with vitamins or essential minerals.  Vitamin D and iron supplementation for infants, adding vitamin D to milk, enriching flour with b-vitamins, calcium and vitamin D to prevent osteoporosis, vitamin K administration to newborns - these are all western medicine ideas. Heck, vitamins themselves are a western medicine concept.

MDs do tend to be skeptical of the supplement market.  I think that's different than nutrition.  It's largely unregulated with no evidence of efficacy required to bring products to market - the opposite of what western medicine strives for (evidence-based, proven efficacy).  This is the domain of naturopaths and chiropractors.  Which is fine!

I'm always mildly surprised, though, when people are disappointed that their MD stays within their scope, and then interpret that as their MD not wanting to help them.  

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