wuhan - coronavirus

[Corraleno]

80% of deer in Iowa test positive for SARS2 infection:

"A new study of hundreds of white-tailed deer infected with the coronavirus in Iowa has found that the animals probably are contracting the virus from humans, and then rapidly spreading it among one another, according to researchers. Up to 80 percent of deer sampled from April 2020 through January 2021 in the state were infected, the study indicated.
......

This new analysis — conducted by examining the lymph nodes of samples from roadkill and from those felled by hunters — showed active infections, the researchers said. The veterinary microbiologists who led the Penn State study, Suresh Kuchipudi and Vivek Kapur, said they were not prepared to find such widespread infection. “It was effectively showing up in all parts of the state,” said Dr. Kuchipudi. “We were dumbfounded.” Evidence of transmission from people, the scientists said, was found in the genomic sequencing of the samples collected over months that reflected the virus lineages circulating among humans.

If the virus were to become endemic in wild animals like deer, it could evolve over time to become more virulent and then infect people with a new strain capable of evading the current crop of vaccines. The findings were verified on Tuesday by federal scientists at the National Veterinary Services Laboratories, according to a spokesperson. Scientists unaffiliated with the study who reviewed the findings said they were stunned, but not entirely surprised.

“If deer can transmit the virus to humans, it’s a game changer,” said Tony Goldberg, a veterinarian at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies the evolution of infectious diseases as they jump between animals and people. “To have a wildlife species become a reservoir after transmission from humans is very rare and unlucky, as if we needed more bad luck.”

Full article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/science/deer-covid-infection.html

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

80% of deer in Iowa test positive for SARS2 infection:

"A new study of hundreds of white-tailed deer infected with the coronavirus in Iowa has found that the animals probably are contracting the virus from humans, and then rapidly spreading it among one another, according to researchers. Up to 80 percent of deer sampled from April 2020 through January 2021 in the state were infected, the study indicated.
......

This new analysis — conducted by examining the lymph nodes of samples from roadkill and from those felled by hunters — showed active infections, the researchers said. The veterinary microbiologists who led the Penn State study, Suresh Kuchipudi and Vivek Kapur, said they were not prepared to find such widespread infection. “It was effectively showing up in all parts of the state,” said Dr. Kuchipudi. “We were dumbfounded.” Evidence of transmission from people, the scientists said, was found in the genomic sequencing of the samples collected over months that reflected the virus lineages circulating among humans.

If the virus were to become endemic in wild animals like deer, it could evolve over time to become more virulent and then infect people with a new strain capable of evading the current crop of vaccines. The findings were verified on Tuesday by federal scientists at the National Veterinary Services Laboratories, according to a spokesperson. Scientists unaffiliated with the study who reviewed the findings said they were stunned, but not entirely surprised.

“If deer can transmit the virus to humans, it’s a game changer,” said Tony Goldberg, a veterinarian at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies the evolution of infectious diseases as they jump between animals and people. “To have a wildlife species become a reservoir after transmission from humans is very rare and unlucky, as if we needed more bad luck.”

Full article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/science/deer-covid-infection.html

 

 

Well, there's another reason to avoid deer, lol. I already avoid them due to ticks... 

[popmom]

Who are these people getting close enough to deer to transmit this virus?? We have to enforce social distancing with wild animals now? lol

[SHP]

3 minutes ago, popmom said:

Who are these people getting close enough to deer to transmit this virus?? We have to enforce social distancing with wild animals now? lol

Really bad hunters?

[Matryoshka]

8 minutes ago, popmom said:

Who are these people getting close enough to deer to transmit this virus?? We have to enforce social distancing with wild animals now? lol

Lol, I've been thinking the exact same thing. I've read some articles saying it's unlikely it would pass back - but I sure do have an easier time imagine a human hunter getting close to, say, a wounded deer and picking it up from them, than how in heck a covid infected human (or several? 80%?!) could have gotten close enough to a previously healthy deer to transmit it in that direction.  I mean... how???

Edited November 10, 2021 by Matryoshka

[popmom]

4 minutes ago, SHP said:

Really bad hunters?

hahaha! Hunters crossed my mind, but no...they'd be dead then, right?? lol

We are pretty over run with deer, and I do know of someone who claims he has had one take an apple from his hand. Most of them are still very skittish if we get close. So this is truly puzzling to me. You'd be outdoors--which makes transmission more difficult. Plus, you'd have to be in their face for more than long enough to offer an apple. just bizarre.

Edited November 10, 2021 by popmom

[RootAnn]

"This can include wildlife management operations, field research, recreation, tourism and hunting."

"It has also been suggested that water sources contaminated with SARS-CoV-2 might provide a pathway for transmission, although this has yet to be proved."

"There is the possibility that viral mutation in a reservoir host, such as white-tailed deer, could lead to new variants of the disease. These variants may lead to greater infection rates, increased virulence (severity of symptoms) and prove more effective at evading the human immune system. Likewise, any reinfection from wildlife reservoirs could also complicate our long-term efforts to fight and suppress the disease."

https://theconversation.com/white-tailed-deer-found-to-be-huge-reservoir-of-coronavirus-infection-171268

If it jumps back to humans, there will always be more strains mutating no matter what the vaccination status of the world population. So far, no evidence of deer-to-human transmission. Hunters might be the first ones to experience it if it happens.

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

80% of deer in Iowa test positive for SARS2 infection:

"A new study of hundreds of white-tailed deer infected with the coronavirus in Iowa has found that the animals probably are contracting the virus from humans, and then rapidly spreading it among one another, according to researchers. Up to 80 percent of deer sampled from April 2020 through January 2021 in the state were infected, the study indicated.
......

This new analysis — conducted by examining the lymph nodes of samples from roadkill and from those felled by hunters — showed active infections, the researchers said. The veterinary microbiologists who led the Penn State study, Suresh Kuchipudi and Vivek Kapur, said they were not prepared to find such widespread infection. “It was effectively showing up in all parts of the state,” said Dr. Kuchipudi. “We were dumbfounded.” Evidence of transmission from people, the scientists said, was found in the genomic sequencing of the samples collected over months that reflected the virus lineages circulating among humans.

If the virus were to become endemic in wild animals like deer, it could evolve over time to become more virulent and then infect people with a new strain capable of evading the current crop of vaccines. The findings were verified on Tuesday by federal scientists at the National Veterinary Services Laboratories, according to a spokesperson. Scientists unaffiliated with the study who reviewed the findings said they were stunned, but not entirely surprised.

“If deer can transmit the virus to humans, it’s a game changer,” said Tony Goldberg, a veterinarian at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies the evolution of infectious diseases as they jump between animals and people. “To have a wildlife species become a reservoir after transmission from humans is very rare and unlucky, as if we needed more bad luck.”

Full article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/science/deer-covid-infection.html

 

 

We eat venison a lot - hope that doesn’t happen here.  I also wonder if it’s possible the same occurs in cows etc.  I also keep wondering how they know for sure that it didn’t come from deer in the first place but I’m assuming they can tell somehow via genomics or something?

[Ausmumof3]

24 minutes ago, popmom said:

Who are these people getting close enough to deer to transmit this virus?? We have to enforce social distancing with wild animals now? lol

I guess it could have spread through farmed deer initially?

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Lol, I've been thinking the exact same thing. I've read some articles saying it's unlikely it would pass back - but I sure do have an easier time imagine a human hunter getting close to, say, a wounded deer and picking it up from them, than how in heck a covid infected human (or several? 80%?!) could have gotten close enough to a previously healthy deer to transmit it in that direction.  I mean... how???

Roadkill. This time of year the hunters have the needs on the run. We have a lot more deer/car accidents and the driver gets out to confirm that the deer is dead, and if not, call a hunter friend or the police to come end its life so it doesn't keep suffering. The deer, if it dies from a broken neck or a shot to the head but does not have internal injuries that make the meat no good will take it home to dress out or to a deer processing facility. Many people in my area eat venison. 

Then we have several organizations that have hunter supper gatherings on first day of gun season. So anyone who came in contact with a live, infected deer then could expose everyone at the gathering. This whole thing is made worse by the scores of hunters who invite all their buddies to deer camp which is a weekend or longer festivity of hunting and drinking. (I am not exaggerating. Drunk with gun is a big thing here. It is a freaking miracle more of them do not kill each other.) So they live together, track deer together, video tape each other's hunt, help each other dress out their deer. There is an entire culture around it. So we are talking about thousands of guys hitting the woods between youth hunt in September, bow season, rifle season, and then musket loader season. 

Then they all go home and transmit to their families, work colleagues, the cashier at the supermaket....really easy for me to see how it would jump from deer to humans and then spread like wildfire.

[popmom]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

I guess it could have spread through farmed deer initially?

I've never heard of deer farming. There's definitely no such thing in the SE US--at least to my knowledge. I'll have to look that up. 

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, popmom said:

I've never heard of deer farming. There's definitely no such thing in the SE US--at least to my knowledge. I'll have to look that up. 

There’s a few here and it’s quite common in NZ I believe.  That’s how we have wild deer now mostly aside from a few deliberate releases.

[Ausmumof3]

https://nadefa.org
 

@popmom

Here you go, it’s a thing apparently.

[popmom]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

There’s a few here and it’s quite common in NZ I believe.  That’s how we have wild deer now mostly aside from a few deliberate releases.

We do in fact have a couple of deer farms in my state. Learn something new everyday. I think the purpose is for hunting--introducing better genetic material into the wild population?? I'm not really sure. It's not like we can buy farmed venison at the grocery store.  I'll have to look into it some more. The one I clicked on is really proud of their semen for AI. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by popmom

[Matryoshka]

13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Roadkill. This time of year the hunters have the needs on the run. We have a lot more deer/car accidents and the driver gets out to confirm that the deer is dead, and if not, call a hunter friend or the police to come end its life so it doesn't keep suffering. The deer, if it dies from a broken neck or a shot to the head but does not have internal injuries that make the meat no good will take it home to dress out or to a deer processing facility. Many people in my area eat venison. 

Then we have several organizations that have hunter supper gatherings on first day of gun season. So anyone who came in contact with a live, infected deer then could expose everyone at the gathering. This whole thing is made worse by the scores of hunters who invite all their buddies to deer camp which is a weekend or longer festivity of hunting and drinking. (I am not exaggerating. Drunk with gun is a big thing here. It is a freaking miracle more of them do not kill each other.) So they live together, track deer together, video tape each other's hunt, help each other dress out their deer. There is an entire culture around it. So we are talking about thousands of guys hitting the woods between youth hunt in September, bow season, rifle season, and then musket loader season. 

Then they all go home and transmit to their families, work colleagues, the cashier at the supermaket....really easy for me to see how it would jump from deer to humans and then spread like wildfire.

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. The articles are downplaying deer->human, but I have no problem imagining that scenario, including all of those you mention.

What I'm not understanding is how it went from human->deer. Dead deer (hunted or roadkill) don't catch disease, nor pass it on to other deer.  Yet somehow 80% of the deer got infected with human covid.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Matryoshka

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

6 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. The articles are downplaying deer->human, but I have no problem imagining that scenario, including all of those you mention.

What I'm not understanding is how it went from human->deer. Dead deer (hunted or roadkill) don't catch disease, nor pass it on to other deer.  Yet somehow 80% of the deer got infected with human covid.

I can’t figure this out either—unless maybe people are passing it to domesticated animals  that are then roaming around and coming in contact with deer? My cat roams the fields and probably comes into contact with a lot of animals. Fecal transmission? Infected water?

I don’t honestly know. We are so overrun with deer that they’re allowing hunters to take more this year(or earlier, my husband was telling me but I was only half paying attention)—but I don’t know anyone who is up close and personal hanging out with deer. 

[Innisfree]

37 minutes ago, popmom said:

Who are these people getting close enough to deer to transmit this virus?? 

This was my first thought, too. Then I realized that out of the twenty or so houses on my suburban street, I know of three for certain where people feed the deer. Dd refers to our local herd as a petting zoo-- not that people are actually petting them, but I've seen them throw corn to deer only a few feet away. I wouldn't be surprised if some feed them by hand. When I walk our 50+ lb hound, we can get within ten feet of the deer before they retreat. So, yeah. People actually do get close enough to transmit the virus. ☹️

[Faith-manor]

12 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I can’t figure this out either—unless maybe people are passing it to domesticated animals  that are then roaming around and coming in contact with deer? My cat roams the fields and probably comes into contact with a lot of animals. Fecal transmission? Infected water?

I don’t honestly know. We are so overrun with deer that they’re allowing hunters to take more this year(or earlier, my husband was telling me but I was only half paying attention)—but I don’t know anyone who is up close and personal hanging out with deer. 

This is a likely scenario. Around here people do not keep their dogs inside, and they run the fields. Deer tend to use communal watering holes, and I have seen dogs drinking from them. Scientific American had an article July 2021 that highlighted a UK that seemed to indicate dogs and cats can get it from their humans. Deer come to eat in my mother in law's yard, a yard that my own dog has spent time running around. We also have a problem here with folks who find orphaned bambi's, and instead of calling the DNR to remove them, they get sheep milk replacer and bottle feed them. Then about the time they get big enough to be a problem, they turn them loose in the woods. Bambi goes to the watering hole.

This past summer five people in my county were fined for keeping them illegally. All it would take is for one of those households to have covid and set a covid infected deer loose, and it would spread rapidly. The deer often drink together practically nose to nose, and during years when the DNR allows hunters to bait deer, they come in groups to eat, nose to nose, from the bait pile. All of those carrots, beets, etc. having been handled and coughed on by the hunter, and droplets hanging in the air. Deer here a very tame. Deer love beets, although apples will make them show up in even larger numbers. Hunters have reported that a doe and baby ave been known to only stand 100 feet away from the hunter replenishing the bait pile, and appraoch to eat it the minute he/she is 100 feet away. So though outside, I can see it happening. I don't know that this is how it happened, but I can understand how that could easily be the source of transmission.

[YaelAldrich]

I mentioned this to my hands and he said, "Duh, the deer are getting it from the raccoons. 🙄 That's why I have a PhD from Harvard."

But maybe they are getting it from the dogs and cats or other mammals.

This makes my conspiracy theory tin hat rattle.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, YaelAldrich said:

I mentioned this to my hands and he said, "Duh, the deer are getting it from the raccoons. 🙄 That's why I have a PhD from Harvard."

But maybe they are getting it from the dogs and cats or other mammals.

This makes my conspiracy theory tin hat rattle.

LOL, don't start me on coons! They are such a menace here, and their population way too high so the dratted things are always a problem and often diseased. Ugh. They are also another "oh look isn't the baby coon so cute? We can't leave it to die!" animal that people want to bottle feed. And then they get big and mean, and climb the drapes, and...off to the woods they go only they have gone from naturally not particularly scared of humans to "hey, give me a twinkie and a cigarette or else" not afraid of people. 

It occurred to me if epidemiologists want to study human transmission of disease to wild animals, we should talk about that Tiger King show! 😜 Those people could definitely be the cause of something like this. Not saying they are, just that if some disease shows up in big cats that definitely came from humans, look no further.....

Oh, and I looked it up. we do have a farmed venison place.here for restaurant supply. The property is fenced and netted. But given that wild deer can come right up to it and get nose to nose with the farm deer, I can see that being a source of transmission.

 

[BeachGal]

A number of mammals have been diagnosed with Covid 19: mice, mink, cats, dogs, bats, deer, etc. Didn't the farmed mink pass Covid back to humans? Humans have possibly infected the deer but other animals could have as well.

Deer do come into close contact with humans on occasion. My brother had one walk right next to him in a forest. My husband and I had the same experience while hiking in Glacier National Park. The deer walked parallel with us along the path for quite a distance.

Then there are the deer who like to eat whatever is growing in yards and gardens. They are not too scared of humans. In our former densely-populated Chicago suburb, deer used to walk around our backyard garden munching on whatever was tasty. There are quite a few in our suburb.

[wathe]

Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, wathe said:

Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

There was also another big ivermectin study retraction last week. Another case of fabricated data, where the data was copied and pasted repeatedly. With all the falsified data studies removed from the meta analysis, there remains no benefit found from ivermectin so far. 
https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/02/ivermectin-covid-19-study-retracted-authors-blame-file-mixup/

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

Too bad none of the people who have been touting Kory's "expertise" and pushing his MATH+ protocol will admit he's a fraud — they'll just insist this is a case of censorship and suppression of The Truth that big pharma and the evil government don't want you to know.

[Corraleno]

Recent study by the Texas Dept of Health & Human Services comparing covid infection and death rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated people:

The infection rate was 13 times higher in the unvaccinated

The death rate was 20 times higher in the unvaccinated

The death rate for people in their 40s was 55 times higher in the unvaccinated

https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-status.aspx

[popmom]

It would be helpful if we could stop referring to Ivermectin as an “animal dewormer” primarily. That is just incorrect. We don’t have to resort to that sort of mischaracterization to acknowledge that it’s not necessarily a viable treatment for COVID-19. Ivermectin is in fact a very safe and invaluable treatment FOR HUMANS against some horrible diseases. 
 

Carry on. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by popmom

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, wathe said:

Of interest: Pierre Kory paper has been retracted from Journal of Intensive Care Medicine by editor and publisher for flawed data.  It would seem that instead of the published 75% absolute risk reduction in mortality, his treatment group actually had an increase in mortality.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

Thanks.  disappointing but not very surprising to see this

[Ausmumof3]

This guy is worth a follow if you’re on Twitter for checking into Covid studies and retractions etc.

[TCB]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Thanks.  disappointing but not very surprising to see this

And to me really annoying. Would love to see the people devoted to Ivermectin, and saying horrible things about hospitals who aren’t prescribing it, admit that they may have been wrong, even people on this board. But I don’t for one minute think that it will happen. There will be complete silence, then they will move on to the next fad medication, and excoriate Drs for not leaping right in and prescribing this “miracle drug”. I can’t tell you how fed up it makes me.

[Terabith]

I've been surprised that I'm not seeing fluvoxamine being touted as a cure all.  It's good really good evidence behind it.  

[TCB]

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I've been surprised that I'm not seeing fluvoxamine being touted as a cure all.  It's good really good evidence behind it.  

Well that’s too simple. It can’t work because it isn’t being “suppressed”

[Jean in Newcastle]

7 hours ago, popmom said:

It would be helpful if we could stop referring to Ivermectin as an “animal dewormer” primarily. That is just incorrect. We don’t have to resort to that sort of mischaracterization to acknowledge that it’s not necessarily a viable treatment for COVID-19. Ivermectin is in fact a very safe and invaluable treatment FOR HUMANS against some horrible diseases. 
 

Carry on. 

Ok. It’s also a human dewormer. Happy now?  

[KSera]

7 hours ago, popmom said:

It would be helpful if we could stop referring to Ivermectin as an “animal dewormer” primarily. That is just incorrect. We don’t have to resort to that sort of mischaracterization to acknowledge that it’s not necessarily a viable treatment for COVID-19. Ivermectin is in fact a very safe and invaluable treatment FOR HUMANS against some horrible diseases. 
 

Carry on. 

I think the reason people say animal dewormer is because people are indeed frequently using the animal preparation for this, since it can be purchased over-the-counter. So, lots and lots of people (enough that it’s causing difficulties for people with actual farm animals) really actually are taking animal dewormer.

[TCB]

2 hours ago, TCB said:

And to me really annoying. Would love to see the people devoted to Ivermectin, and saying horrible things about hospitals who aren’t prescribing it, admit that they may have been wrong, even people on this board. But I don’t for one minute think that it will happen. There will be complete silence, then they will move on to the next fad medication, and excoriate Drs for not leaping right in and prescribing this “miracle drug”. I can’t tell you how fed up it makes me.

Quoting myself to say I should hold off on being so annoyed until further info. I looked at a thread on Twitter from the guy linked up thread, and it seemed to say that Ivermectin wasn’t part of the protocol in the withdrawn paper. I don’t really get it, because it seems to say the study ended July 2021, and I thought they had been advocating Ivermectin since December 2020, but I don’t know so need to hold off commenting until I can read more.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I think the reason people say animal dewormer is because people are indeed frequently using the animal preparation for this, since it can be purchased over-the-counter. So, lots and lots of people (enough that it’s causing difficulties for people with actual farm animals) really actually are taking animal dewormer.

Thank you. It is available otc for livestock and that is the formulation these loons are taking and in horse size doses too because apparentnLy they think they have quarter horse chromosomes lurking in their DNA. This is not the human formulation which requires prescription and docs are not prescribing. People are even trying to sneak the damn horse med into the hospitals around here so now there are no visitors allowed, back to hospital lockdown because of morons. I am tired of people defending them, and being all sensitive about the feel feels of people who are killing themselves and attempting to kill their loved ones out sheer, willful ignorance. So done.

It is livestock medicine. Horse reworked is the appropriate name for what it is people are O.D'ing on and melting their intestines and bowels with.

[Corraleno]

9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This guy is worth a follow if you’re on Twitter for checking into Covid studies and retractions etc.

I agree that many of the papers on Vit D are weak, and the paper claiming that mortality risk from covid approaches zero at 50 ng/l is flawed, but this guy presents evidence in support of his argument that is not only flat out wrong, it suggests that he really doesn't know what he's talking about. He states:

"Moreover, looking at the graph closely shows how bad this analysis is. The mean value for vitamin D levels in most places varies, but even in European countries it’s often above 50ng/mL. However, this graph has every datapoint below 40ng/mL. The obvious reason here is that the authors only looked at studies of people who had been admitted to hospital, and were therefore far sicker than the general population — this makes any extrapolation to people who have not been hospitalized largely meaningless."

 I knew the bolded was wrong before I even clicked on the link to the data he's referencing, because I know that Europeans measure vitamin D in nmol/L, not ng/ml. He also mentions in a different paragraph that vitamin D levels in Switzerland were "46 ng/ml." In both cases, the papers he links to clearly state that the measurements are nmol/L, NOT ng/ml. The highest value listed in the paper he linked to support the claim that D levels in Europe are "often above 50 ng/ml" is 68.7 nmol/L — which works out to roughly 27 ng/ml. Anything below 30 ng/ml is considered vitamin D insufficiency, and it is nowhere near the 50 ng/ml the paper he is critiquing suggested would protect against covid.

When critiquing other people's data, it's really important to make sure that your entire refutation isn't based on an embarrassingly basic math error that clearly demonstrates you have no idea what you're talking about. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Corraleno

[Jean in Newcastle]

9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Thank you. It is available otc for livestock and that is the formulation these loons are taking and in horse size doses too because apparentnLy they think they have quarter horse chromosomes lurking in their DNA. This is not the human formulation which requires prescription and docs are not prescribing. People are even trying to sneak the damn horse med into the hospitals around here so now there are no visitors allowed, back to hospital lockdown because of morons. I am tired of people defending them, and being all sensitive about the feel feels of people who are killing themselves and attempting to kill their loved ones out sheer, willful ignorance. So done.

It is livestock medicine. Horse reworked is the appropriate name for what it is people are O.D'ing on and melting their intestines and bowels with.

Some people are getting the prescribed human version through some doctors.  My problem with that is that it's using the wrong medicine for the wrong thing.  If they get better, it isn't because of the Ivermectin.  How many studies do we need to show that it really doesn't help for this illness?  Covid19 is not a parasitic illness. 

(Not discounting the horrible situation you describe which I also believe is happening. ) 

[wathe]

39 minutes ago, TCB said:

Quoting myself to say I should hold off on being so annoyed until further info. I looked at a thread on Twitter from the guy linked up thread, and it seemed to say that Ivermectin wasn’t part of the protocol in the withdrawn paper. I don’t really get it, because it seems to say the study ended July 2021, and I thought they had been advocating Ivermectin since December 2020, but I don’t know so need to hold off commenting until I can read more.

No, this wasn't an ivermectin paper.  Ivermectin was not one of the study drugs.  The study drugs were a cocktail of methylprednisolone, ascorbic acid, thiamine, vitamin D, heparin, atorvastatin, melatonin, zinc, and famotidine, and therapeutic plasma exchange.  I've read the original paper and the retraction from the journal in question. Viewable here (I think without paywall)

The MATH+ protocol does now include ivermectin though (added in October 2020, as per FLCCC website).   Many of the adjunct drugs on the current protocol are different than in the  retracted study (famotidine, atorvastatin, and zinc are gone, but ivermectin, nitazoxanide, and dual anti-androgen therapy have been added)

It was a paper by a guy who promotes dodgy protocols (including ivermectin protocols) with statements like this: " The MATH+ protocol potentially offers a life-saving approach to the management of hospitalized COVID-19 patients",  whose protocol has just been discredited.  Vitamins don't fix covid.

 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I agree that many of the papers on Vit D are weak, and the paper claiming that mortality risk from covid approaches zero at 50 ng/l is flawed, but this guy presents evidence in support of his argument that is not only flat out wrong, it suggests that he really doesn't know what he's talking about. He states:

"Moreover, looking at the graph closely shows how bad this analysis is. The mean value for vitamin D levels in most places varies, but even in European countries it’s often above 50ng/mL. However, this graph has every datapoint below 40ng/mL. The obvious reason here is that the authors only looked at studies of people who had been admitted to hospital, and were therefore far sicker than the general population — this makes any extrapolation to people who have not been hospitalized largely meaningless."

 I knew the bolded was wrong before I even clicked on the link to the data he's referencing, because I know that Europeans measure vitamin D in nmol/L, not ng/ml. He also mentions in a different paragraph that vitamin D levels in Switzerland were "46 ng/ml." In both cases, the papers he links to clearly state that the measurements are nmol/L, NOT ng/ml. The highest value listed in the paper he linked to support the claim that D levels in Europe are "often above 50 ng/ml" is 68.7 nmol/L — which works out to roughly 27 ng/ml. Anything below 30 ng/ml is considered vitamin D insufficiency, and it is nowhere near the 50 ng/ml the paper he is critiquing suggested would protect against covid.

When critiquing other people's data, it's really important to make sure that your entire refutation isn't based on an embarrassingly basic math error that clearly demonstrates you have no idea what you're talking about. 

You could tell him 🙂 he would probably correct, retract as he has done before when he’s made errors.

[Jean in Newcastle]

18 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

You could tell him 🙂 he would probably correct, retract as he has done before when he’s made errors.

Someone who has made multiple errors that require retraction, who then does the same thing again without the proper credentials or proper research is not a benign source. 

[Ausmumof3]

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Someone who has made multiple errors that require retraction, who then does the same thing again without the proper credentials or proper research is not a benign source. 

What do you mean by this?

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Someone who has made multiple errors that require retraction, who then does the same thing again without the proper credentials or proper research is not a benign source. 

She's referring to the guy on Twitter who posted a refutation of papers on Vitamin D, which I pointed out was based on confusing two totally different measurements. She's not referring to Pierre Kory and the MATH+ protocol thing.

[Corraleno]

29 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

You could tell him 🙂 he would probably correct, retract as he has done before when he’s made errors.

I did. Hopefully he will take it down.

[Ausmumof3]

6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I did. Hopefully he will take it down.

Thanks.  I’ll be interested to see what happens anyway.  I’d say something myself except it’s above my pay grade and I’d probably get it wrong.

[Terabith]

So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

[wathe]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, is there any evidence for the MATH+ protocol, minus the ivermecitin?  When I got a covid test when I had an upper respiratory infection a month or so ago, they gave me a copy of that with the recommendation of vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, melatonin, and I'm trying to remember what else.  Maybe famotitide?  Maybe NAC?  Maybe aspirin?  I didn't pay much attention since my test was negative.  

I mean, clearly it's not a panacea, but in case someone in our house gets covid, it would be nice to have a plan of attack beyond monoclonal antibodies, since we're all on other antidepressants and can't take fluvoxavine.  

I don't think so.  The retracted paper noted was retracted because the revised data analysis showed that MATH+ patients seems to do worse.

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

I don't think so.  The retracted paper noted was retracted because the revised data analysis showed that MATH+ patients seems to do worse.

Well, good to know.  I mean, I take vitamin D and melatonin every day anyway (because if I don't constantly supplement vitamin D, my levels drop down to like 2, which is not healthy, and melatonin because I'm a chronic insomniac.)

Would be nice if the physician's office would stop handing out the protocol to everyone getting tested though.  

[wathe]

I mean, you probably won't cause yourself any harm if you take vitamins C and D, zinc and melatonin - those thing are pretty benign.  But I don't think there is much evidence to show that they actually help.  They certainly aren't a substitute for interventions that have been shown to be effective (like vaccination, for example)

The harm comes from when people use vitamins etc as a substitute for interventions that work.  

[wathe]

Just now, Terabith said:

Well, good to know.  I mean, I take vitamin D and melatonin every day anyway (because if I don't constantly supplement vitamin D, my levels drop down to like 2, which is not healthy, and melatonin because I'm a chronic insomniac.)

Would be nice if the physician's office would stop handing out the protocol to everyone getting tested though.  

I don't know of any MD offices that are actually doing that here. ( I am constantly reminded on this board that the US is a very different place.)

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, wathe said:

I mean, you probably won't cause yourself any harm if you take vitamins C and D, zinc and melatonin - those thing are pretty benign.  But I don't think there is much evidence to show that they actually help.  They certainly aren't a substitute for interventions that have been shown to be effective (like vaccination, for example)

The harm comes from when people use vitamins etc as a substitute for interventions that work.  

Oh, for sure.  

Aspirin, I have wondered about?  The blood thinning effect seems like it might be beneficial, but I haven't done a literature search.