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9 hours ago, bookbard said:

Fantastic. Are they boosting with Pfizer in the UK or AZ?

NSW at 187 new cases today and Vic with 1126 so a little bit lower than before. NSW almost at 90% vaccinated (over age 16).

Those are good vaccination rates. Yes, Pfizer for everyone,  I think. I had AZ before. 

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Do we have any idea how long that lasts, though? 

I don't think so.  As far as I remember,  the single-jab announcement said they would look again in a couple of months  - the UK has mostly used a 12-week gap anyway. 

Edited by Laura Corin
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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-08/nsw-health-data-reveals-protection-covid-19-vaccine-gives/100603470
 

Data comparing death rates in vaxed to unvaxed NSW

“People in NSW who are not vaccinated against COVID-19 were 16 times more likely to die, or end up in intensive care during the state's Delta outbreak, new government data has revealed.

At the peak of the outbreak between August 25 and September 7, 49.5 per 100,000 fully vaccinated people were infected with the virus, compared with 561 per 100,000 unvaccinated people.

The data was collated by NSW Health and released today.

COVID ICU admissions or deaths peaked between September 8 and September 21, in just 0.9 per 100,000 fully vaccinated people, compared with 15.6 per 100,000 unvaccinated.

It means people who had not had a COVID-19 jab were 16 times more likely to die, or get so sick they needed the top level of hospital care.”

 

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Not sure what is going to happen at work because of the vaccine mandate. So far it looks like a number of people aren’t going to comply, but they haven’t given the final word yet, so maybe people are holding out until they absolutely have to. There are many hard core refusers though, who might find it hard to back down. I have, so far, not heard much at all in the way of well reasoned, evidence based rationale from any of them for their stance. A hospital fairly close by seems to be granting lots of exemptions, so maybe that’s the way it will be here too.

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2 hours ago, TCB said:

Not sure what is going to happen at work because of the vaccine mandate. So far it looks like a number of people aren’t going to comply, but they haven’t given the final word yet, so maybe people are holding out until they absolutely have to. There are many hard core refusers though, who might find it hard to back down. I have, so far, not heard much at all in the way of well reasoned, evidence based rationale from any of them for their stance. A hospital fairly close by seems to be granting lots of exemptions, so maybe that’s the way it will be here too.

I am curious what they are granting exemptions for. In my state, there is now a real pushback from more populist representatives on requirements for any vaccine, not just covid, for any job, including healthcare workers. I feel like if local hospitals push too hard, they will get more of this, and if they grant too many exemptions, we'll end up with a new expectation that it's acceptable for people to go into healthcare with an anti-vax stance. 

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2 hours ago, TCB said:

I have, so far, not heard much at all in the way of well reasoned, evidence based rationale from any of them for their stance.

I keep reading quotes from people who are reluctantly getting the vaccine due to mandates and saying they are keeping it a secret from family and friends because it’s considered an act of political betrayal 😞

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https://www.science.org/content/article/why-delta-so-infectious-new-lab-tool-spotlights-little-noticed-mutation-speeds-viral-spread

Really interesting article about a new technique developed by Nobel Prize winner Jennifer Doudna at UC Berkeley, which allows scientists to look at mutations in viral proteins in new ways. Because of technical limitations, scientists have mostly focused on the spike protein, but with this new technique they found a mutation in the nucleocapsid (N) protein of Delta that may explain why viral loads are vastly higher:

"The N protein is a central player in viral replication, with roles that include stabilizing and releasing the virus’ genetic material. And it contains a mutational hot spot: a seven–amino acid stretch that is mutated in every SARS-CoV-2 variant of interest or concern in most samples studied. R203M is one mutation in this hot spot ... [and it] "supercharged the particles with 10 times more mRNA compared with the original virus” ... The scientists next tested a real coronavirus engineered to include the R203M mutation, in appropriate lab biosafety conditions. After invading lung cells in the lab, the mutated virus produced 51 times more infectious virus than an original SARS-CoV-2 strain."

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4 hours ago, TCB said:

Not sure what is going to happen at work because of the vaccine mandate. So far it looks like a number of people aren’t going to comply, but they haven’t given the final word yet, so maybe people are holding out until they absolutely have to. There are many hard core refusers though, who might find it hard to back down. I have, so far, not heard much at all in the way of well reasoned, evidence based rationale from any of them for their stance. A hospital fairly close by seems to be granting lots of exemptions, so maybe that’s the way it will be here too.

Our hospital mandate was very successful.  We had quite a few hold out until the very last moment, but almost everyone complied when push came to shove.  I'm rounding numbers for privacy, buy of approx 3000 staff, 40 were terminated for non-compliance with the mandate, 10 staff were granted exemptions, and 20 extensions (in process of getting series done, but missed deadline).  We are more than 99% vaxed now.  Before the hospital mandate, we were only about 80%.  Exemptions must meet strict criteria and are not easy to get.  Those numbers are in line with with what I've seen published at hospitals elsewhere here and in the US (about 1% staffing loss).

ETA: The mandate give the up-to-now refusers an out; a chance to save face.  

You haven't heard any well-reasoned evidence-based rationale from vaccine-refusers in health care because, short of legitimate medical exemptions, which are rare,  there aren't any.

 

Edited by wathe
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My local hospital has started releasing figures for its own location. COVID patients are 20% of the intensive care unit and 6.6% of hospital patients (in a context where they are about 1% of the population - it seems my area's doing considerably better than the UK national average in terms of total infections). By the standards of the last two years, it's fairly quiet in most of the hospital, with about 30% of regular beds empty... ...but intensive care is full.

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25 minutes ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

My local hospital has started releasing figures for its own location. COVID patients are 20% of the intensive care unit and 6.6% of hospital patients (in a context where they are about 1% of the population - it seems my area's doing considerably better than the UK national average in terms of total infections). By the standards of the last two years, it's fairly quiet in most of the hospital, with about 30% of regular beds empty... ...but intensive care is full.

Our hospital was already too small but now 90% of ICU beds are Covid patients and 20% of regular beds.  Meanwhile, most people in our county are anti-vax and anti-mask.  It's crazy. There aren't enough beds or staff to care for all the patients.  😞  

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4 hours ago, kbutton said:

I am curious what they are granting exemptions for. In my state, there is now a real pushback from more populist representatives on requirements for any vaccine, not just covid, for any job, including healthcare workers. I feel like if local hospitals push too hard, they will get more of this, and if they grant too many exemptions, we'll end up with a new expectation that it's acceptable for people to go into healthcare with an anti-vax stance. 

I don’t work for the hospital granting exemptions, but several people I work with do. It sounded like the exemptions were very vague and seemed to just require signing something asking for one.

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3 hours ago, KSera said:

I keep reading quotes from people who are reluctantly getting the vaccine due to mandates and saying they are keeping it a secret from family and friends because it’s considered an act of political betrayal 😞

This seems crazy and sad. I am so sick of politics!

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3 hours ago, wathe said:

You haven't heard any well-reasoned evidence-based rationale from vaccine-refusers in health care because, short of legitimate medical exemptions, which are rare,  there aren't any.

 

Yes it’s hard to have any kind of productive discussion about it because they can’t really state why they hold that position. 

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6 minutes ago, TCB said:

Yes it’s hard to have any kind of productive discussion about it because they can’t really state why they hold that position. 

One friend that is not a healthcare worker that is incensed on behalf of healthcare workers is protesting mandates because she thinks we could lose the right to homeschooling if we comply with this kind of thing now. 

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One of my brothers probably has Covid - lateral flow test positive, waiting for PCR result. He has light flu symptoms.  Quite worrying as he has heart disease - atypical and difficult to treat - for which he has had two stents. He has only met people to play tennis and golf outside in the past month. But my SIL - who has no symptoms - works in a school.

He was double jabbed with AZ about six months ago. Not yet boostered.

Edited by Laura Corin
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On 11/7/2021 at 2:43 AM, Laura Corin said:

 

I suspect that they are looking at hospitalisation rather than infection,  and a single Pfizer dose - Pfizer is being used on young people - is very protective. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/the-covid-delta-variant-how-effective-are-the-vaccines

 

 

Right, but not hospitalized has nothing to do with them spreading it to people that then do end up in the hospital, or worse. 

You can't control this thing if a large part of the population is not fully vaccinated. 1 shot does very very little to prevent infection, according to that same study. 

 

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1 hour ago, kbutton said:

One friend that is not a healthcare worker that is incensed on behalf of healthcare workers is protesting mandates because she thinks we could lose the right to homeschooling if we comply with this kind of thing now. 

I honestly don’t know what I think of the mandates. From a purely practical point of view I’m sure mandates will mean more people get vaccinated. But looking at our society and the need for us to work together- I’m not sure mandates will help. I’m also not impressed with the stupid, non-evidence based reasoning some of my fellow HCWs are using to fear the vaccinations. Not enjoying working through a pandemic with a number of conspiracy believing co-workers who’s lived experience contradicts the conspiracies, and yet whose political beliefs beliefs are so strongly held that they can deny what they see with their own eyes. I would never have believed this was possible before this.

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54 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Montana has the highest per capita hospitalization rate in the country right now, the CEO of the largest healthcare system in the state says their ICUs are at 150% of capacity, 85% of the patients have covid, and the politicians are less concerned with the number of people hospitalized and dying than they are with political grandstanding to prevent a private company from requiring that healthcare employees get vaccinated. Insane.

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1 minute ago, TCB said:

But looking at our society and the need for us to work together- I’m not sure mandates will help.

For sure, this is a concern, and where I live, a big one.

1 minute ago, TCB said:

I’m also not impressed with the stupid, non-evidence based reasoning some of my fellow HCWs are using to fear the vaccinations. Not enjoying working through a pandemic with a number of conspiracy believing co-workers who’s lived experience contradicts the conspiracies, and yet whose political beliefs beliefs are so strongly held that they can deny what they see with their own eyes. I would never have believed this was possible before this.

Yep. This is so disturbing. I do feel as though the HCW are doing better than the general population here, but there are a few that are still pretty out there with their rationalizations. They feel no moral responsibility to end this with individual action. They feel that people can choose protection or not, and they don't believe the protection is worth the "risk" to themselves. The whole idea of protecting the vulnerable is not in their worldview.

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3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Montana has the highest per capita hospitalization rate in the country right now, the CEO of the largest healthcare system in the state says their ICUs are at 150% of capacity, 85% of the patients have covid, and the politicians are less concerned with the number of people hospitalized and dying than they are with political grandstanding to prevent a private company from requiring that healthcare employees get vaccinated. Insane.

Our state legislators have tried to push through two different bills similar to this one. So far, we've avoided having them become law. I don't know how long that will last. The people testifying on behalf of these sorts of bills are way out there and present lies. I don't understand. I know two nurses in favor of these bills. (One is only about Covid; one is banning all vaccine mandates for all employers for all illnesses.)

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1 minute ago, kbutton said:

The whole idea of protecting the vulnerable is not in their worldview.

Quite an interesting view for people in healthcare to hold. Hard to believe really, as I see so many of them being very kind and caring to the vulnerable people they are caring for. The only apt expression is - The whole world has gone mad!

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3 minutes ago, TCB said:

Quite an interesting view for people in healthcare to hold. Hard to believe really, as I see so many of them being very kind and caring to the vulnerable people they are caring for. The only apt expression is - The whole world has gone mad!

What's weird is that if it's phrased that way, they would say they are protecting people. They don't really believe the vaccine is doing that enough to make a difference and to take a risk. When I've hinted at having a moral obligation, one of the people I talked to about it got defensive and asked if I was suggesting they were immoral. Well, sort of. I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance, especially when these folks are pro-life that I am speaking about. 

And yes, they can be super caring! It's like a vast chasm in the brain that refuses to allow a connection. 

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1 hour ago, kbutton said:

I know two nurses in favor of these bills. (One is only about Covid; one is banning all vaccine mandates for all employers for all illnesses.)

Do they see any issue with nurses without Rubella vaccines taking care of pregnant women? That's a scary thought to me. People have been getting their kids vaccinated against rubella for ages in order to prevent them from passing it to pregnant women. Never seemed controversial before.

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I feel like mandates actually helps people get vaccinated and move on from perseverating about it all. I mentioned earlier that a guy on my husband's FB was constantly posting anti-vax stuff, until he had to be vaccinated for his work, and now he just doesn't do that any more. He's moved on from all that, posts about his hobbies etc like he used to. And that's less divisive. Having said that, there's overall less anti-vax feeling in Australia.

NSW at 222, 1069 for VIC. Today the news reported a decision about 5-11 was imminent, so today or tomorrow, surely? 

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1 hour ago, bookbard said:

I feel like mandates actually helps people get vaccinated and move on from perseverating about it all. I mentioned earlier that a guy on my husband's FB was constantly posting anti-vax stuff, until he had to be vaccinated for his work, and now he just doesn't do that any more. He's moved on from all that, posts about his hobbies etc like he used to. And that's less divisive. Having said that, there's overall less anti-vax feeling in Australia.

NSW at 222, 1069 for VIC. Today the news reported a decision about 5-11 was imminent, so today or tomorrow, surely? 

I actually agree with that. Sometimes, people just kind of get stuck, and when they get the vaccine and don't, like, become magnetic, they move on. Mind you, they probably move on to the next conspiracy theory (it's a personality type, what can I say?) but it makes it a non-issue. 

I also think that sometimes, people are reading the conspiracy theories to rile themselves up because they feel uncertain... I remember reading a ton of anti-sleep training posts from people when I was contemplating sleep training my kids, because I was so stressed out, and I kind of wanted to talk myself out of it. (Spoiler alert: I failed to talk myself out of it, and I'm really glad.) 

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

Do they see any issue with nurses without Rubella vaccines taking care of pregnant women? That's a scary thought to me. People have been getting their kids vaccinated against rubella for ages in order to prevent them from passing it to pregnant women. Never seemed controversial before.

Apparently not. One of the most ardent nurse supporters basically laughed at me for pointing this out. I promptly unfriended. 

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11 hours ago, wathe said:

Our hospital mandate was very successful.  We had quite a few hold out until the very last moment, but almost everyone complied when push came to shove.  I'm rounding numbers for privacy, buy of approx 3000 staff, 40 were terminated for non-compliance with the mandate, 10 staff were granted exemptions, and 20 extensions (in process of getting series done, but missed deadline).  We are more than 99% vaxed now.  Before the hospital mandate, we were only about 80%.  Exemptions must meet strict criteria and are not easy to get.  Those numbers are in line with with what I've seen published at hospitals elsewhere here and in the US (about 1% staffing loss).

ETA: The mandate give the up-to-now refusers an out; a chance to save face.  

You haven't heard any well-reasoned evidence-based rationale from vaccine-refusers in health care because, short of legitimate medical exemptions, which are rare,  there aren't any.

 

Unfortunately, some of the hospitals in my state gave exemptions to pretty much everyone who requested, primarily on religious grounds. As did most state agencies. Overall, about 11% of state employees were granted exemptions (very few of them were medical) and 18% of state corrections employees got exemptions. Significantly smaller numbers either quit or were put on administrative leave.
 

Fortunately, at least a few of the major healthcare systems were very strict about exemptions, only granting a handful or two out of thousands of employees.

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80% of deer in Iowa test positive for SARS2 infection:

"A new study of hundreds of white-tailed deer infected with the coronavirus in Iowa has found that the animals probably are contracting the virus from humans, and then rapidly spreading it among one another, according to researchers. Up to 80 percent of deer sampled from April 2020 through January 2021 in the state were infected, the study indicated.
......

This new analysis — conducted by examining the lymph nodes of samples from roadkill and from those felled by hunters — showed active infections, the researchers said. The veterinary microbiologists who led the Penn State study, Suresh Kuchipudi and Vivek Kapur, said they were not prepared to find such widespread infection. “It was effectively showing up in all parts of the state,” said Dr. Kuchipudi. “We were dumbfounded.” Evidence of transmission from people, the scientists said, was found in the genomic sequencing of the samples collected over months that reflected the virus lineages circulating among humans.

If the virus were to become endemic in wild animals like deer, it could evolve over time to become more virulent and then infect people with a new strain capable of evading the current crop of vaccines. The findings were verified on Tuesday by federal scientists at the National Veterinary Services Laboratories, according to a spokesperson. Scientists unaffiliated with the study who reviewed the findings said they were stunned, but not entirely surprised.

“If deer can transmit the virus to humans, it’s a game changer,” said Tony Goldberg, a veterinarian at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies the evolution of infectious diseases as they jump between animals and people. “To have a wildlife species become a reservoir after transmission from humans is very rare and unlucky, as if we needed more bad luck.”

Full article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/science/deer-covid-infection.html

 

 

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7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

80% of deer in Iowa test positive for SARS2 infection:

"A new study of hundreds of white-tailed deer infected with the coronavirus in Iowa has found that the animals probably are contracting the virus from humans, and then rapidly spreading it among one another, according to researchers. Up to 80 percent of deer sampled from April 2020 through January 2021 in the state were infected, the study indicated.
......

This new analysis — conducted by examining the lymph nodes of samples from roadkill and from those felled by hunters — showed active infections, the researchers said. The veterinary microbiologists who led the Penn State study, Suresh Kuchipudi and Vivek Kapur, said they were not prepared to find such widespread infection. “It was effectively showing up in all parts of the state,” said Dr. Kuchipudi. “We were dumbfounded.” Evidence of transmission from people, the scientists said, was found in the genomic sequencing of the samples collected over months that reflected the virus lineages circulating among humans.

If the virus were to become endemic in wild animals like deer, it could evolve over time to become more virulent and then infect people with a new strain capable of evading the current crop of vaccines. The findings were verified on Tuesday by federal scientists at the National Veterinary Services Laboratories, according to a spokesperson. Scientists unaffiliated with the study who reviewed the findings said they were stunned, but not entirely surprised.

“If deer can transmit the virus to humans, it’s a game changer,” said Tony Goldberg, a veterinarian at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies the evolution of infectious diseases as they jump between animals and people. “To have a wildlife species become a reservoir after transmission from humans is very rare and unlucky, as if we needed more bad luck.”

Full article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/science/deer-covid-infection.html

 

 

Well, there's another reason to avoid deer, lol. I already avoid them due to ticks... 

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8 minutes ago, popmom said:

Who are these people getting close enough to deer to transmit this virus?? We have to enforce social distancing with wild animals now? lol

Lol, I've been thinking the exact same thing. I've read some articles saying it's unlikely it would pass back - but I sure do have an easier time imagine a human hunter getting close to, say, a wounded deer and picking it up from them, than how in heck a covid infected human (or several? 80%?!) could have gotten close enough to a previously healthy deer to transmit it in that direction.  I mean... how???

Edited by Matryoshka
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4 minutes ago, SHP said:

Really bad hunters?

hahaha! Hunters crossed my mind, but no...they'd be dead then, right?? lol

We are pretty over run with deer, and I do know of someone who claims he has had one take an apple from his hand. Most of them are still very skittish if we get close. So this is truly puzzling to me. You'd be outdoors--which makes transmission more difficult. Plus, you'd have to be in their face for more than long enough to offer an apple. just bizarre.

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"This can include wildlife management operations, field research, recreation, tourism and hunting."

"It has also been suggested that water sources contaminated with SARS-CoV-2 might provide a pathway for transmission, although this has yet to be proved."

"There is the possibility that viral mutation in a reservoir host, such as white-tailed deer, could lead to new variants of the disease. These variants may lead to greater infection rates, increased virulence (severity of symptoms) and prove more effective at evading the human immune system. Likewise, any reinfection from wildlife reservoirs could also complicate our long-term efforts to fight and suppress the disease."

https://theconversation.com/white-tailed-deer-found-to-be-huge-reservoir-of-coronavirus-infection-171268

If it jumps back to humans, there will always be more strains mutating no matter what the vaccination status of the world population. So far, no evidence of deer-to-human transmission. Hunters might be the first ones to experience it if it happens.

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7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

80% of deer in Iowa test positive for SARS2 infection:

"A new study of hundreds of white-tailed deer infected with the coronavirus in Iowa has found that the animals probably are contracting the virus from humans, and then rapidly spreading it among one another, according to researchers. Up to 80 percent of deer sampled from April 2020 through January 2021 in the state were infected, the study indicated.
......

This new analysis — conducted by examining the lymph nodes of samples from roadkill and from those felled by hunters — showed active infections, the researchers said. The veterinary microbiologists who led the Penn State study, Suresh Kuchipudi and Vivek Kapur, said they were not prepared to find such widespread infection. “It was effectively showing up in all parts of the state,” said Dr. Kuchipudi. “We were dumbfounded.” Evidence of transmission from people, the scientists said, was found in the genomic sequencing of the samples collected over months that reflected the virus lineages circulating among humans.

If the virus were to become endemic in wild animals like deer, it could evolve over time to become more virulent and then infect people with a new strain capable of evading the current crop of vaccines. The findings were verified on Tuesday by federal scientists at the National Veterinary Services Laboratories, according to a spokesperson. Scientists unaffiliated with the study who reviewed the findings said they were stunned, but not entirely surprised.

“If deer can transmit the virus to humans, it’s a game changer,” said Tony Goldberg, a veterinarian at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who studies the evolution of infectious diseases as they jump between animals and people. “To have a wildlife species become a reservoir after transmission from humans is very rare and unlucky, as if we needed more bad luck.”

Full article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/02/science/deer-covid-infection.html

 

 

We eat venison a lot - hope that doesn’t happen here.  I also wonder if it’s possible the same occurs in cows etc.  I also keep wondering how they know for sure that it didn’t come from deer in the first place but I’m assuming they can tell somehow via genomics or something?

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11 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Lol, I've been thinking the exact same thing. I've read some articles saying it's unlikely it would pass back - but I sure do have an easier time imagine a human hunter getting close to, say, a wounded deer and picking it up from them, than how in heck a covid infected human (or several? 80%?!) could have gotten close enough to a previously healthy deer to transmit it in that direction.  I mean... how???

Roadkill. This time of year the hunters have the needs on the run. We have a lot more deer/car accidents and the driver gets out to confirm that the deer is dead, and if not, call a hunter friend or the police to come end its life so it doesn't keep suffering. The deer, if it dies from a broken neck or a shot to the head but does not have internal injuries that make the meat no good will take it home to dress out or to a deer processing facility. Many people in my area eat venison. 

Then we have several organizations that have hunter supper gatherings on first day of gun season. So anyone who came in contact with a live, infected deer then could expose everyone at the gathering. This whole thing is made worse by the scores of hunters who invite all their buddies to deer camp which is a weekend or longer festivity of hunting and drinking. (I am not exaggerating. Drunk with gun is a big thing here. It is a freaking miracle more of them do not kill each other.) So they live together, track deer together, video tape each other's hunt, help each other dress out their deer. There is an entire culture around it. So we are talking about thousands of guys hitting the woods between youth hunt in September, bow season, rifle season, and then musket loader season. 

Then they all go home and transmit to their families, work colleagues, the cashier at the supermaket....really easy for me to see how it would jump from deer to humans and then spread like wildfire.

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Just now, popmom said:

I've never heard of deer farming. There's definitely no such thing in the SE US--at least to my knowledge. I'll have to look that up. 

There’s a few here and it’s quite common in NZ I believe.  That’s how we have wild deer now mostly aside from a few deliberate releases.

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5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

There’s a few here and it’s quite common in NZ I believe.  That’s how we have wild deer now mostly aside from a few deliberate releases.

We do in fact have a couple of deer farms in my state. Learn something new everyday. I think the purpose is for hunting--introducing better genetic material into the wild population?? I'm not really sure. It's not like we can buy farmed venison at the grocery store.  I'll have to look into it some more. The one I clicked on is really proud of their semen for AI. 

Edited by popmom
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13 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Roadkill. This time of year the hunters have the needs on the run. We have a lot more deer/car accidents and the driver gets out to confirm that the deer is dead, and if not, call a hunter friend or the police to come end its life so it doesn't keep suffering. The deer, if it dies from a broken neck or a shot to the head but does not have internal injuries that make the meat no good will take it home to dress out or to a deer processing facility. Many people in my area eat venison. 

Then we have several organizations that have hunter supper gatherings on first day of gun season. So anyone who came in contact with a live, infected deer then could expose everyone at the gathering. This whole thing is made worse by the scores of hunters who invite all their buddies to deer camp which is a weekend or longer festivity of hunting and drinking. (I am not exaggerating. Drunk with gun is a big thing here. It is a freaking miracle more of them do not kill each other.) So they live together, track deer together, video tape each other's hunt, help each other dress out their deer. There is an entire culture around it. So we are talking about thousands of guys hitting the woods between youth hunt in September, bow season, rifle season, and then musket loader season. 

Then they all go home and transmit to their families, work colleagues, the cashier at the supermaket....really easy for me to see how it would jump from deer to humans and then spread like wildfire.

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. The articles are downplaying deer->human, but I have no problem imagining that scenario, including all of those you mention.

What I'm not understanding is how it went from human->deer. Dead deer (hunted or roadkill) don't catch disease, nor pass it on to other deer.  Yet somehow 80% of the deer got infected with human covid.

Edited by Matryoshka
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6 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. The articles are downplaying deer->human, but I have no problem imagining that scenario, including all of those you mention.

What I'm not understanding is how it went from human->deer. Dead deer (hunted or roadkill) don't catch disease, nor pass it on to other deer.  Yet somehow 80% of the deer got infected with human covid.

I can’t figure this out either—unless maybe people are passing it to domesticated animals  that are then roaming around and coming in contact with deer? My cat roams the fields and probably comes into contact with a lot of animals. Fecal transmission? Infected water?

I don’t honestly know. We are so overrun with deer that they’re allowing hunters to take more this year(or earlier, my husband was telling me but I was only half paying attention)—but I don’t know anyone who is up close and personal hanging out with deer. 

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37 minutes ago, popmom said:

Who are these people getting close enough to deer to transmit this virus?? 

This was my first thought, too. Then I realized that out of the twenty or so houses on my suburban street, I know of three for certain where people feed the deer. Dd refers to our local herd as a petting zoo-- not that people are actually petting them, but I've seen them throw corn to deer only a few feet away. I wouldn't be surprised if some feed them by hand. When I walk our 50+ lb hound, we can get within ten feet of the deer before they retreat. So, yeah. People actually do get close enough to transmit the virus. ☹️

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12 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I can’t figure this out either—unless maybe people are passing it to domesticated animals  that are then roaming around and coming in contact with deer? My cat roams the fields and probably comes into contact with a lot of animals. Fecal transmission? Infected water?

I don’t honestly know. We are so overrun with deer that they’re allowing hunters to take more this year(or earlier, my husband was telling me but I was only half paying attention)—but I don’t know anyone who is up close and personal hanging out with deer. 

This is a likely scenario. Around here people do not keep their dogs inside, and they run the fields. Deer tend to use communal watering holes, and I have seen dogs drinking from them. Scientific American had an article July 2021 that highlighted a UK that seemed to indicate dogs and cats can get it from their humans. Deer come to eat in my mother in law's yard, a yard that my own dog has spent time running around. We also have a problem here with folks who find orphaned bambi's, and instead of calling the DNR to remove them, they get sheep milk replacer and bottle feed them. Then about the time they get big enough to be a problem, they turn them loose in the woods. Bambi goes to the watering hole.

This past summer five people in my county were fined for keeping them illegally. All it would take is for one of those households to have covid and set a covid infected deer loose, and it would spread rapidly. The deer often drink together practically nose to nose, and during years when the DNR allows hunters to bait deer, they come in groups to eat, nose to nose, from the bait pile. All of those carrots, beets, etc. having been handled and coughed on by the hunter, and droplets hanging in the air. Deer here a very tame. Deer love beets, although apples will make them show up in even larger numbers. Hunters have reported that a doe and baby ave been known to only stand 100 feet away from the hunter replenishing the bait pile, and appraoch to eat it the minute he/she is 100 feet away. So though outside, I can see it happening. I don't know that this is how it happened, but I can understand how that could easily be the source of transmission.

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1 minute ago, YaelAldrich said:

I mentioned this to my hands and he said, "Duh, the deer are getting it from the raccoons. 🙄 That's why I have a PhD from Harvard."

But maybe they are getting it from the dogs and cats or other mammals.

This makes my conspiracy theory tin hat rattle.

LOL, don't start me on coons! They are such a menace here, and their population way too high so the dratted things are always a problem and often diseased. Ugh. They are also another "oh look isn't the baby coon so cute? We can't leave it to die!" animal that people want to bottle feed. And then they get big and mean, and climb the drapes, and...off to the woods they go only they have gone from naturally not particularly scared of humans to "hey, give me a twinkie and a cigarette or else" not afraid of people. 

It occurred to me if epidemiologists want to study human transmission of disease to wild animals, we should talk about that Tiger King show! 😜 Those people could definitely be the cause of something like this. Not saying they are, just that if some disease shows up in big cats that definitely came from humans, look no further.....

Oh, and I looked it up. we do have a farmed venison place.here for restaurant supply. The property is fenced and netted. But given that wild deer can come right up to it and get nose to nose with the farm deer, I can see that being a source of transmission.

 

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A number of mammals have been diagnosed with Covid 19: mice, mink, cats, dogs, bats, deer, etc. Didn't the farmed mink pass Covid back to humans? Humans have possibly infected the deer but other animals could have as well.

Deer do come into close contact with humans on occasion. My brother had one walk right next to him in a forest. My husband and I had the same experience while hiking in Glacier National Park. The deer walked parallel with us along the path for quite a distance.

Then there are the deer who like to eat whatever is growing in yards and gardens. They are not too scared of humans. In our former densely-populated Chicago suburb, deer used to walk around our backyard garden munching on whatever was tasty. There are quite a few in our suburb.

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