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5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports

 

I hope this was limited to this company, which accounts for 1,000 of 44,000 participants in the full trial.

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3 hours ago, melmichigan said:

I hope this was limited to this company, which accounts for 1,000 of 44,000 participants in the full trial.

Yes, a small enough proportion not to have a major impact and mostly issues with relation to trial participants safety rather than accuracy of the data.  

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Big jump today for both NSW and VIC - NSW has 308 cases and VIC has 1247 cases. QLD has recorded 3 cases in the one area, and ACT has 13 cases.

I wonder if we're starting to see the school spread now for NSW and VIC? A school kind of in our general area was closed this week. 

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2 hours ago, bookbard said:

Big jump today for both NSW and VIC - NSW has 308 cases and VIC has 1247 cases. QLD has recorded 3 cases in the one area, and ACT has 13 cases.

I wonder if we're starting to see the school spread now for NSW and VIC? A school kind of in our general area was closed this week. 

I guess it was to be expected eventually with reopening bit disappointing though 

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2 hours ago, bookbard said:

Big jump today for both NSW and VIC - NSW has 308 cases and VIC has 1247 cases. QLD has recorded 3 cases in the one area, and ACT has 13 cases.

I wonder if we're starting to see the school spread now for NSW and VIC? A school kind of in our general area was closed this week. 

Hundreds of schools have closed in Vic and NSW this term - it's around 500, I think. 

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NSW very close to 90% double dosed (above age 16). Apparently ACT is at 100% single dose! 249 cases for NSW, 1,343 for VIC so still high. Sounds like the NSW/VIC border is opening up now. A mystery covid case in NT, and a lockdown; a lockdown in QLD due to the small outbreak up there. 

I was reading about vaccination in the UK, it is very low for the 12 plus, and partly because protesters are standing at school gates - and sometimes going into the schools - and handing out anti-vax leaflets, including pictures of dead children. That seems shocking to me, can't believe they're allowed to do that. 

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19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Apparently, one of our babysitters has COVID 😕 . It's a breakthrough infection -- she had Moderna back in February, but no booster.

She's in her late 20s and says she feels pretty sick, although we don't know details yet. 

When did she last watch your kids?

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Just now, KSera said:

When did she last watch your kids?

I dunno, 3 months ago? 😛 We stopped doing indoor babysitting when cases started spiking in July. But we've had a relationship with her for a while and have kept in touch. 

So I'm not worried about ourselves, although of course this is precisely why we stopped doing indoor babysitting! 

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Western Australia has said they'll open up when they reach 90% - predicting January or February at this point, as they're only at 65%. Australia as a whole is at 80% (second dose above age 16), but there's big disparities between areas.

I read an absolutely fantastic article about health workers getting the vaccine going in a small town with a big Indigenous population, it was eye-opening. One town and a gaping vaccination chasm. How did it happen? - ABC News

The weird thing is that the delayed vaccine rollout in Australia may have one benefit - we should be able to get boosters in a timely fashion, so hopefully won't be affected too much by diminishing effectiveness issue (as say Israel). By next winter, most people should have received their boosters, as they're rolling it out to everyone (as far as I understand), after 6 months. And because they are only doing mRNA vaccines for boosters, everyone should then be equally protected (as currently a lot of people who received AZ with a short gap are only 50-60% protected against Delta). 

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6 hours ago, bookbard said:

Western Australia has said they'll open up when they reach 90% - predicting January or February at this point, as they're only at 65%. Australia as a whole is at 80% (second dose above age 16), but there's big disparities between areas.

I read an absolutely fantastic article about health workers getting the vaccine going in a small town with a big Indigenous population, it was eye-opening. One town and a gaping vaccination chasm. How did it happen? - ABC News

The weird thing is that the delayed vaccine rollout in Australia may have one benefit - we should be able to get boosters in a timely fashion, so hopefully won't be affected too much by diminishing effectiveness issue (as say Israel). By next winter, most people should have received their boosters, as they're rolling it out to everyone (as far as I understand), after 6 months. And because they are only doing mRNA vaccines for boosters, everyone should then be equally protected (as currently a lot of people who received AZ with a short gap are only 50-60% protected against Delta). 

Are there rumors yet of when kids will be able to be vaccinated there? After seeing the breakthrough cases here caused by interaction with unvaccinated children I hope you guys get there soon. 

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8 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Are there rumors yet of when kids will be able to be vaccinated there?

Rumour is we'll hear by the end of the month, with vaccines by the end of the year. They're looking at the data now, but there's only been positive noise about it. I don't think they'll be in the 'why bother' camp like the UK seems to be. I don't get it, even UK friends are like 'kids don't need it as they mostly don't get sick'. I'd agree if there were major serious common side effects from the vaccine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Even if no child ever got really sick, wouldn't the whole 'reduce the amount of covid overall' argument and the 'productivity when kids are taking weeks off school and someone has to mind them' argument be enough?

But then, the UK didn't/doesn't (not sure if it's changed) have the varicella vaccine for kids either, which I find mind-boggling. I've read the reasons but they don't really hold up. I know some people blame the NHS but we have a similar govt-paid vaccine scheme, and surely it's more cost-effective to not have people sick?

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2 hours ago, bookbard said:

But then, the UK didn't/doesn't (not sure if it's changed) have the varicella vaccine for kids either, which I find mind-boggling.

Do they vaccinate during outbreaks of it? That's strange. Besides the risk to the really little ones, no one wants shingles later in life!

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5 hours ago, kbutton said:

Do they vaccinate during outbreaks of it? That's strange. Besides the risk to the really little ones, no one wants shingles later in life!

Honestly not being from the UK I don't know the ins and outs, only what my friend who currently lives there says - she didn't get her 2 kids vaccinated while they were here in Australia, and they don't do the chicken pox over there in the UK as part of the schedule, so her 2 kids got really sick - but the adults were fine of course being vaccinated! She did tell me it was something to do with preventing shingles (maybe the vaccine could trigger that later in life??) but we have really good anti-shingles vaccines now so? 

Sounds like there are a scattering of new cases of covid in the NT which isn't good as vaccination rate is low and lots of at risk people. 18 cases in ACT, 270 in NSW and 1268 in VIC . . . was really hoping that VIC's below 1000 cases thing would stick. QLD also had a case, and NZ 206. Apparently first time NZ above 200?

 

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12 hours ago, bookbard said:

Rumour is we'll hear by the end of the month, with vaccines by the end of the year. They're looking at the data now, but there's only been positive noise about it. I don't think they'll be in the 'why bother' camp like the UK seems to be. I don't get it, even UK friends are like 'kids don't need it as they mostly don't get sick'. I'd agree if there were major serious common side effects from the vaccine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Even if no child ever got really sick, wouldn't the whole 'reduce the amount of covid overall' argument and the 'productivity when kids are taking weeks off school and someone has to mind them' argument be enough?

 

The decision about Covid vaccines for 12-15yo was finely balanced in the UK. Medically, the benefit to the individual child was not considered great enough when balanced against the small risk of side effects. It was finally the nations' medical officers who decided on a single jab for societal reasons, avoiding the second jab which has a higher risk of side effects. I suspect the decision about younger children will be similar.

I don't know the ins and outs of the chickenpox decision. 

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11 hours ago, bookbard said:

Honestly not being from the UK I don't know the ins and outs, only what my friend who currently lives there says - she didn't get her 2 kids vaccinated while they were here in Australia, and they don't do the chicken pox over there in the UK as part of the schedule, so her 2 kids got really sick - but the adults were fine of course being vaccinated! She did tell me it was something to do with preventing shingles (maybe the vaccine could trigger that later in life??) but we have really good anti-shingles vaccines now so? 

It's actually the opposite — the chances of getting shingles later in life are vastly higher if you had chickenpox vs the vaccine, and the few people who do get shingles despite being vaccinated generally get a milder case.

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5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

It's actually the opposite — the chances of getting shingles later in life are vastly higher if you had chickenpox vs the vaccine, and the few people who do get shingles despite being vaccinated generally get a milder case.

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

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14 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

Thanks, I knew it was something about shingles. I don't know if it was a kind of experiment and they have changed it now? I always find it interesting how different countries do the vaccination schedules for kids.

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Netherlands was the most recent country everyone was looking at as doing it right with over 80pc fully vaxed and moving to removing masks and more open society.  Other countries watching to see what happened. I don’t know if the hospitalisation situation will follow with the higher vax rates but cases are up.

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

I was just looking at this the other day (after being surprised to learn the UK doesn't vaccinate for chickenpox), and it doesn't even seem to be working terribly well for adults as a strategy; as far as I can tell there are about 50 shingles deaths in the UK/year compared to "less than 100" in the US, despite the population difference. And there are around 20 chicken pox deaths per year in both countries, again, despite the much larger US population (US deaths down from around 100/year pre-vaccine)

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes and no.  Getting chickenpox increases the kids risk of shingles long term but regular exposure to mild doses of chicken pox tends to be protective against shingles for the adults around the kids who have been infected as children.  Choosing not to vaccinate is choosing to lower the short term shingle risk for the current adult population over the long term risk for the next one.  Choosing to vaccinate is choosing long term benefit of the kids over the current batch of adults.  

Presumably today's unvaccinated kids will also be protected as adults by contact with chickenpox, unless the policy changes?

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Just now, Laura Corin said:

Presumably today's unvaccinated kids will also be protected as adults by contact with chickenpox, unless the policy changes?

But aren't adults who are vaccinated as kids much less likely to get shingles anyway because of never having had chickenpox? 

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1 minute ago, kokotg said:

But aren't adults who are vaccinated as kids much less likely to get shingles anyway because of never having had chickenpox? 

I really don't know. Eta my boss who recently had the chickenpox vaccine was told that he would now be susceptible to shingles,  but I don't know the numbers.

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Refusing to use the chickenpox vaccine in order to purposely keep chickenpox circulating in children, to provide some protection against shingles in adults who had chickenpox as children because they also didn't get the vaccine, instead of vaccinating children to prevent chickenpox, and then vaccinating older adults against shingles, resulting in fewer people getting chickenpox or shingles to begin with, seems like a bizarre strategy to me.

The people most likely to get shingles are people who had chickenpox, then people who had the vaccine, then people who never had chickenpox or the vaccine. But as long as chickenpox is allowed to spread unchecked  in the population, the odds of never being exposed to it are pretty low.

Edited by Corraleno
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1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I really don't know. Eta my boss who recently had the chickenpox vaccine was told that he would now be susceptible to shingles,  but I don't know the numbers.

Right. You have to have had either chicken pox or the vaccine in order for shingles to be a possibility, but the shot lowers the chances of shingles in the future vs having an actual chicken pox infection. 

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Refusing to use the chickenpox vaccine in order to purposely keep chickenpox circulating in children, to provide some protection against shingles in adults who had chickenpox as children because they also didn't get the vaccine, instead of vaccinating children to prevent chickenpox, and then vaccinating older adults against shingles, resulting in fewer people getting chickenpox or shingles to begin with, seems like a bizarre strategy to me.

Well, at least now we have a decent shingles vaccine, but that is only very recent. The previous one just wasn’t very good. When my older kids were young and I was making vaccine decisions, the varicella paper from the WHO stated the economic consequences of chickenpox due to parents being out of the workforce for an extended period taking care of their sick kids as the primary reason for recommending vaccination. Given that I was home with them at the time, and I was quite concerned about the vaccine wearing off right as they were reaching the age when chickenpox becomes dangerous, I delayed it with my older kids. They then got the shot when they reached preteens without having contracted chickenpox. Around that time, it was found that it was a valid concern to worry about the shot wearing off right as kids reached their teens or adulthood, because that was what was happening, and the second shot was added. With my younger kids, I went ahead and started them on the series earlier. Even if someone wanted their kids to contract chickenpox naturally, there’s just not enough of it circulating for that to happen for most people. At this point, I’m happier for my kids to not have to go through chickenpox and now the second shot should keep them protected long term. 
 

Incidentally, the varicella vaccine was developed in Japan in 1974, but it didn’t become part of their universal schedule until 2014 (the US adopted it in 1996). 

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16 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

The decision about Covid vaccines for 12-15yo was finely balanced in the UK. Medically, the benefit to the individual child was not considered great enough when balanced against the small risk of side effects. It was finally the nations' medical officers who decided on a single jab for societal reasons, avoiding the second jab which has a higher risk of side effects. I suspect the decision about younger children will be similar.

 

You would think that on a population basis the benefit of lowering the risk of break through infections in adults exposed to kids would be enough to encourage fully vaccinating kids. Especially since it doesn't seem like one dose gives much protection at all against Delta. 

4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Netherlands was the most recent country everyone was looking at as doing it right with over 80pc fully vaxed and moving to removing masks and more open society.  Other countries watching to see what happened. I don’t know if the hospitalisation situation will follow with the higher vax rates but cases are up.

80 percent of total population, or 80 percent of eligible population? Again, if this is a case of 80% of say, adults, but 20 percent of the population is kids...it isn't enough. Then you start getting lax with masks, distancing, etc due to a false sense of security and things go badly. 

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18 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

80 percent of total population, or 80 percent of eligible population? Again, if this is a case of 80% of say, adults, but 20 percent of the population is kids...it isn't enough. Then you start getting lax with masks, distancing, etc due to a false sense of security and things go badly. 

This, this, this.  The answer is obviously the latter. People keep saying 80 or 90 percent of a "population" is vaxxed, and keep wondering why it's still spreading.  Maybe because *all the kids* are *not vaxxed* - and even if they're not getting super-sick, they're happily spreading it around and responsible for much of the breakthrough cases.  Kids are humans - and part of the population!  They need to be counted, not discounted.  They need protection and also to be recognized as the vectors they are.

I'm going to feel so much better after the younger kids here start getting the vax en masse (and I'm fairly sure at least around here there will be a large uptake - teens here are at over 90%).  No idea what Britain is thinking with their 'only give the teens one dose and let's forget the younger ones altogether'...  That's just nuts.

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

You would think that on a population basis the benefit of lowering the risk of break through infections in adults exposed to kids would be enough to encourage fully vaccinating kids. Especially since it doesn't seem like one dose gives much protection at all against Delta. 

80 percent of total population, or 80 percent of eligible population? Again, if this is a case of 80% of say, adults, but 20 percent of the population is kids...it isn't enough. Then you start getting lax with masks, distancing, etc due to a false sense of security and things go badly. 

No total population if I understand correctly.  About 88pc of total?

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2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.rivm.nl/en/covid-19-vaccination/figures-vaccination-programme
 

actual Netherland stats - I can’t find whole population though.  Still similar to Australia’s planned reopening so we will be in a similar position with the exception of WA who have decided they won’t open till 90%

Reuters puts the figure for the total population at 69.6%:

https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/netherlands/

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21 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.rivm.nl/en/covid-19-vaccination/figures-vaccination-programme
 

actual Netherland stats - I can’t find whole population though.  Still similar to Australia’s planned reopening so we will be in a similar position with the exception of WA who have decided they won’t open till 90%

Yeah, that says 82% over 12yo are fully vaxxed. But leaves still 0% of under 12s that are still unvaxxed human vectors - along with the 10% or so of unvaxxed 12+.

17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That sounds more like the actual number.

Edited by Matryoshka
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5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

You would think that on a population basis the benefit of lowering the risk of break through infections in adults exposed to kids would be enough to encourage fully vaccinating kids. Especially since it doesn't seem like one dose gives much protection at all against Delta. 

Yes, I don't know. As the adult vaccination rate is very high it is largely breakthrough cases to worry about, as you say. And if that's the case, is the very low risk to the individual child of the second jab too high? 

I suspect that they are looking at hospitalisation rather than infection,  and a single Pfizer dose - Pfizer is being used on young people - is very protective. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/the-covid-delta-variant-how-effective-are-the-vaccines

I'm personally very concerned about Long Covid,  but given the wooliness of the data, no government seems to be addressing that.

Screenshot_20211107-073849_Chrome.jpg

Edited by Laura Corin
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2 hours ago, bookbard said:

From today, everyone in Australia over age 18 can get a booster if they were vaccinated 6mths ago or longer. This would mostly be health workers/police etc as vaccination rolled out pretty slowly here. I wouldn't be due till sometime next year.

 

I'm waiting for my blue letter. My six months is up on Wednesday. 

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1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

I'm waiting for my blue letter. My six months is up on Wednesday. 

Fantastic. Are they boosting with Pfizer in the UK or AZ?

NSW at 187 new cases today and Vic with 1126 so a little bit lower than before. NSW almost at 90% vaccinated (over age 16).

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2 hours ago, bookbard said:

From today, everyone in Australia over age 18 can get a booster if they were vaccinated 6mths ago or longer. This would mostly be health workers/police etc as vaccination rolled out pretty slowly here. I wouldn't be due till sometime next year.

 

Yeah, I'm not due till Dec. Am going to try to get it earlier so I can go back to work before term ends. 

Glad that HCW are getting it. Some of them are 7+ months out. 

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13 minutes ago, AurieD said:

Where did you see/hear this? I've been keeping an eye out but haven't heard anything.


from abc blog

 

Vaccines for under 12s unlikely to begin until next year

Federal Health Minister Greg Hunt says it's unlikely children aged 5 to 11 will start getting COVID-19 vaccinations before the end of the year. 

Pfizer booster shots are being rolled out from today for adults who had their second dose six months ago, but the medical regulator hasn't given the green light to vaccinations for children.

Mr Hunt told Sky News that Pfizer was yet to submit all its paperwork and he did not expect jabs to start for children until early in the new year.

"We haven't got the full detail yet from Pfizer. And Moderna will also put in its application," he said.

"So our plan and expectation has always been to commence as soon as they have completed their deliberations. But those deliberations are going to take the coming weeks."

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33 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Vaccines for under 12s unlikely to begin until next year

While I'm initially really sad about this, there is a bright side at least; hopefully people who are hesitant, like my husband, will have a few more weeks to see how it goes in the USA etc and become reconciled to it. It does mean that my kids are still at risk at Christmas though, and the plan was for a really big family Christmas. I guess we shall see. 

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19 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes, I don't know. As the adult vaccination rate is very high it is largely breakthrough cases to worry about, as you say. And if that's the case, is the very low risk to the individual child of the second jab too high? 

I suspect that they are looking at hospitalisation rather than infection,  and a single Pfizer dose - Pfizer is being used on young people - is very protective. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/the-covid-delta-variant-how-effective-are-the-vaccines

I'm personally very concerned about Long Covid,  but given the wooliness of the data, no government seems to be addressing that.

Screenshot_20211107-073849_Chrome.jpg

Do we have any idea how long that lasts, though? 

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