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gardenmom5

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4 minutes ago, wathe said:

I'm always mildly surprised, though, when people are disappointed that their MD stays within their scope, and then interpret that as their MD not wanting to help them.  

Yes.  My allopathic doc, who is an excellent allopathic doc, struggles with my chronic illness.  He can, and does suggest the obvious lifestyle helps including a healthy diet and exercise but he knows his limitations.  He will often ask me what my naturopathic doc suggests for my chronic pain/illness management and encourages me to follow his advice. 

That said, the best naturopathic docs I've had were ones who still took a scientific approach to medicine.  I've been burned by those who treat with "crystals" and other woo.  Definitely give me supplements, but give me a bloodtest (if there is one) first.  Sometimes we will do a trial on something when tests show that I'm borderline - where a conservative allopathic doc might not treat but my naturopathic doctor is going by symptoms. 

As far as chiropractors go, in my state (and I suspect a lot of states) they are only supposed to adjust your spine.  They are not supposed to be treating with supplements or providing broader treatment.  I would not trust one who went out of his lane. 

Covid 19 is still a novel illness.  We certainly know more than we did at the start of 2020, but there is still so much that we don't know or are just starting to explore.   Medicine has always been an art as much as a science - I know that I've never been a textbook case and doctors do need to make educated guesses at times.  But of course, the guiding principle is "first, do no harm".  And with Covid, providing "placebos" like Ivermectin (my opinion), is harmful even at human doses because it gives a false sense of security with a communicable disease. 

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8 hours ago, KSera said:

Where do you get these, and are there any downsides? I had a naturopath give me a dessicated bovine adrenal supplement once, but I decided not to take it after reading about it. I think deer liver sounds pretty safe though. I've been chronically wiped out since a viral illness a year and a half ago and none of the iron supplements I've tried have agreed with me. If I could find a way to take liver, that seems helpful.

Perfect Supplements – Perfect Desiccated Liver – 120 Capsules - Undefatted Beef Liver – Natural Source of Protein, Iron, Vitamins A & B https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J47LEMS/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_4C8CHZ5PMNDJEHRZK24Q

I'm not aware of downsides.  Eating liver from a healthy animal fresh is probably the best but I cant so capsules it is!

 

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I think geography influences medicine more than we'd like to admit. I've only recently been able to find a doctor that seems to practice any kind of standard of care while also listening to what my body is doing, but some of you seem to have your choice of practitioners who are decent. I had one clinician that is probably a good doctor, but when things didn't show up on my bloodwork according to my symptoms, I got "the look" that meant he was skeptical about my symptoms, so I stopped seeing him. There is no point in going to a practitioner that has decided you must be making stuff up because his tests don't turn up anything out of place. Years later, those specific symptoms went almost entirely away when I went GF (long story, wasn't planning to, did elimination diet). 

10 hours ago, wathe said:

Western medicine absolutely includes the idea that vitamins are important for health.  I've never meant a MD who would disagree with this.

Hmm...DH is a midlevel practitioner, and he had an instructor in school that said that vitamins just make expensive pee. My previous doctor wouldn't test my Vitamin D while insisting that I take it willy nilly because we have cloudy winters here. This is after I told her that my mother needs testing because she's low without supplements but then goes sky high with a supplement. 

I would also posit that some of us have slim ranges of tolerance for small variations in vitamin status, blood pressure, etc. that make us far more miserable than someone else would be at that level. I think it's either biologically programmed that our optimum is different or we have something else going on in our bodies that is responding to those tiny fluctuations in a negative way.

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2 hours ago, kbutton said:

 

Hmm...DH is a midlevel practitioner, and he had an instructor in school that said that vitamins just make expensive pee. My previous doctor wouldn't test my Vitamin D while insisting that I take it willy nilly because we have cloudy winters here. This is after I told her that my mother needs testing because she's low without supplements but then goes sky high with a supplement. 

 

I think it's important to distiguish between the idea that vitamins are important for health (they are - they are literally vital) and the practice of vitamin supplementation, particularly indiscriminate vitamin supplementation.  

I've heard the "expensive pee" sentiment regarding indiscriminate vitamin supplementation before - and it's not wrong.  The story you relate about your MD and vitamin D is actually following best evidence:  that vitamin D screening is generally not clinically useful, and that supplementation in northern latitudes is appropriate and safe. Exceptions for certain at-risk populations apply.  It does not mean that the MD doesn't think that vitamins aren't important.

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I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

Edited by wathe
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In my entire life I have only had two doctors who knew anything at all about nutrition, and they are both female DOs, not MDs.  

When we were struggling to get DS diagnosed with what turned out to be Lyme disease, one of the doctors ran a whole slew of tests including D3 — DS's level was 12 ng/ml, which is severe deficiency. Like that is rickets level, bordering on psychosis level. Not only did the doctor not mention it, after I looked at the test results myself and specifically asked him about it, he insisted that the level "wasn't that bad" but I could give DS 800 IU/day if I was concerned about it. That prompted me to ask my own MD to test my D3, which she resisted, claiming it was unnecessary since we lived in the desert and got plenty of sun. I insisted she order the test and my level was 10! She said that was "a little low" and I could take 1000 IU if I wanted to. IMO telling patients who have severe vitamin D deficiencies that it's really not a problem and there's no need to supplement unless they really want to is medical malpractice. 

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8 minutes ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

I don't think it's really standard here.  I got mine tested after I got pneumonia and just couldn't get over it and was catching loads of upper respiratory viruses.  My level was 13.  And my mom mentioned that she'd gotten her vitamin D levels checked because of some weird symptom, and hers was also very low.  So, with that history in mind, our fairly crunchy pediatrician tested my kids' levels, and my oldest kid's level was 7, which was a big freaking deal and had major impacts on both physical and mental health.  (Although honestly, I'm annoyed, because he refused to prescribe an antidepressant or refer us to psychiatry until we got their level up over 30, and that delay was really, really bad.  I wish to high heavens he had done both.) So now our levels are tested every few years, but only because of history.  

My husband's doctor does not check his, even though he does not drink milk and avoids the sun because his skin is so fair he literally can get a sunburn walking across a parking lot.  

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5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

In my entire life I have only had two doctors who knew anything at all about nutrition, and they are both female DOs, not MDs.  

When we were struggling to get DS diagnosed with what turned out to be Lyme disease, one of the doctors ran a whole slew of tests including D3 — DS's level was 12 ng/ml, which is severe deficiency. Like that is rickets level, bordering on psychosis level. Not only did the doctor not mention it, after I looked at the test results myself and specifically asked him about it, he insisted that the level "wasn't that bad" but I could give DS 800 IU/day if I was concerned about it. That prompted me to ask my own MD to test my D3, which she resisted, claiming it was unnecessary since we lived in the desert and got plenty of sun. I insisted she order the test and my level was 10! She said that was "a little low" and I could take 1000 IU if I wanted to. IMO telling patients who have severe vitamin D deficiencies that it's really not a problem and there's no need to supplement unless they really want to is medical malpractice. 

I agree.  I was also frustrated, because nobody in my family's levels would budge with either the prescription supplementation or standard supplements.  Chiropractors not staying in their lane bothers me, but it was only when I mentioned the fact that I couldn't get anyone in my family's vitamin D levels over 20 even taking high levels of supplement and he suggested a formulation that combined vitamin D with K that we got any movement at all.  

I do not think there are any naturopaths in my area.  

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44 minutes ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

Those guidelines say that routine screening for Vit D isn't recommended because everyone in Canada should be supplementing: "Because Canada is located above the 35° North latitude, the average Canadian’s exposure to sunlight is insufficient to maintain adequate Vitamin D levels, especially during the winter. Therefore, measuring serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels is not necessary because routine supplementation with Vitamin D is appropriate for the general population." 

I'm surprised by the recommendation that annual blood tests should not be run for people who don't have symptoms — like it's better to just wait until someone is already diabetic or hypertensive or has heart disease rather than catch and correct the issue before it's a serious problem requiring drugs to manage it. That makes no sense to me and doesn't seem like it would save money in the long run.

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7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I agree.  I was also frustrated, because nobody in my family's levels would budge with either the prescription supplementation or standard supplements.  Chiropractors not staying in their lane bothers me, but it was only when I mentioned the fact that I couldn't get anyone in my family's vitamin D levels over 20 even taking high levels of supplement and he suggested a formulation that combined vitamin D with K that we got any movement at all.  

Same here — before I added K2 I struggled to get my levels above the 30s even with large daily doses of D3. Added K2 and my levels have been in the 60s & 70s ever since, which seems to be a good spot for me. DS and I both have a mutation that messes with D levels, and clearly we can't get enough from the sun since we were severely deficient while living in the desert and getting several hours of sun every day year round! I don't know why it isn't included in all routine annual blood panels, it's so important for so many different aspects of physical and mental health. 

When we moved to Oregon we ended up with a DO totally by accident, she was one of the few doctors at the large local practice that was taking new patients (all the other practitioners there are MDs or NPs). She was as medically trained as an MD but took a much more holistic approach and really listened. I assume she was trained in some kind of osteopathic manipulation, but she didn't do any of that with me or any of my family members. She was amazing and I literally cried when I found out she moved to another state. She was replaced with another DO and so far I have been really happy with her too. No woo, just medicine from a more holistic perspective.

 

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48 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Those guidelines say that routine screening for Vit D isn't recommended because everyone in Canada should be supplementing: "Because Canada is located above the 35° North latitude, the average Canadian’s exposure to sunlight is insufficient to maintain adequate Vitamin D levels, especially during the winter. Therefore, measuring serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels is not necessary because routine supplementation with Vitamin D is appropriate for the general population." 

 

Right.  Screening doesn't change outcomes here, so we don't do it.

Interestingly, the US preventive task force "concludes that the current evidence is insufficient to assess the balance of benefits and harms of screening for vitamin D deficiency in asymptomatic adults"  So neither for nor against.  I wonder if the recommendation would be different if US healthcare were publicly funded.  Screening is expensive.  Screening programs need to measurably positively affect outcomes (and not cause harm) in order to justify the cost. 

The US medical culture in general seems to investigate and treat more aggressively for all things medical that Canadians do.  Canadian guidelines are generally more conservative than American ones -  there is definitely a culture difference. Despite this, US health outcomes aren't better, I don't think.   

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1 hour ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

Screening isn't routine here unless there's a particular reason. However, my mum's gastro screened because 'everyone has low vitamin D in this horrible climate.' Her levels were fine.

Supplementation is recommended for everyone in Scotland  - even southern Scotland is on a similar latitude to the Alaskan peninsula. 

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Those guidelines say that routine screening for Vit D isn't recommended because everyone in Canada should be supplementing: "Because Canada is located above the 35° North latitude, the average Canadian’s exposure to sunlight is insufficient to maintain adequate Vitamin D levels, especially during the winter. Therefore, measuring serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels is not necessary because routine supplementation with Vitamin D is appropriate for the general population." 

I'm surprised by the recommendation that annual blood tests should not be run for people who don't have symptoms — like it's better to just wait until someone is already diabetic or hypertensive or has heart disease rather than catch and correct the issue before it's a serious problem requiring drugs to manage it. That makes no sense to me and doesn't seem like it would save money in the long run.

I just ordered K2 a few days ago. I've never taken it before. But I need to get my vitamin D up, too. 

I'm using the Cronometer app to keep up with everything I'm getting--in foods and supplements. I upgraded the app, and it even tells me if I'm getting minerals in the proper ratios. 

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

When we moved to Oregon we ended up with a DO totally by accident, she was one of the few doctors at the large local practice that was taking new patients (all the other practitioners there are MDs or NPs). She was as medically trained as an MD but took a much more holistic approach and really listened. I assume she was trained in some kind of osteopathic manipulation, but she didn't do any of that with me or any of my family members. She was amazing and I literally cried when I found out she moved to another state. She was replaced with another DO and so far I have been really happy with her too. No woo, just medicine from a more holistic perspective.

We have TONS of DOs here, and they are hit and miss like the MDs, though they do tend to have the reputation you're experiencing.

One particular hospital system here seems to have more DOs than is typical. They are a Seventh Day Adventist system, and I wonder if they get more DOs because of their dietary views? IDK

 

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2 hours ago, wathe said:

Screening is expensive.  Screening programs need to measurably positively affect outcomes (and not cause harm) in order to justify the cost. 

A standard Vitamin D test (Quest or LabCorp) is around $70-80, and causes no harm. The last time I saw a doctor for anything other than an annual physical, my D level was 24.5, and once my levels were good I stopped taking sleep and anxiety meds too, so the insurance company actually saves far more than the cost of an annual test. And even though the increase in quality of life counts for nothing in those sorts of cost-benefit analyses, it matters a lot to me.

The problem is that medical systems are focused on disease, not health, even though optimizing heath would prevent a lot of disease. Vitamin D deficiency is linked to heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, increased risk of infection, several types of cancer, depression, anxiety, and osteoporosis, so a $70 test seems like a pretty cheap way to either rule out or fix a basic issue that has incredibly wide-ranging implications for human health. 

Western medicine seems to hyperfocus on heart disease so doctors will watch BP and cholesterol numbers like a hawk and jump to prescribing meds even before they're needed, while simultaneously shrugging off the possibility of even severe vitamin deficiencies as "eh, you can take a pill if you're worried about it, no need for testing." That just seems backwards to me.

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What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

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5 hours ago, wathe said:

I see a lot of posting about Vitamin D levels on this board, and I wonder if there is a cultural difference at play, or maybe universal healthcare vs private healthcare system thing? - Screening vitamin d levels isn't really a thing here, unless there are very specific clinical indications. Vitamin D level screening isn't covered in my province and EBM guidelines recommend against. (example Choosing Wisely)

That doesn't mean that vitamin d isn't important - vitamin D supplementation is recommended, particularly for pregnant women, infants, and certain at-risk populations.

 

I go to a nurse practitioner and she includes vitamin D screening in routine yearly bloodwork. I'm in the US, in the midwest. My D level was 47 and she commented that that was much higher than most of her patients, so apparently a lot of people are deficient around here.

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10 minutes ago, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I take this one, which is vegan, but if you're not looking for a plant-based one, you can probably find one that is cheaper. Look for 5000 IU D3 with around 100-125 mcg K2, and ideally you want the MK7 form of K2. I prefer an oil capsule, but I think powder capsules are fine if you're taking it with food that has some fat:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07255MPRN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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49 minutes ago, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I take these women's daily multivitamins that have 2000 IU D3 and 30 mcg K2.

https://smile.amazon.com/Dr-Fuhrmans-Womens-Daily-Formula/dp/B008RAA3HK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3I9GD27SFUC1C&keywords=dr+fuhrman+womens+daily+multivitamin&qid=1636684363&sprefix=dr+fuhrman%2Caps%2C221&sr=8-5

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1 hour ago, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I take 6000 IU of D3 with 240 micrograms of K2 every day.  It keeps my levels around 60.  

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

A standard Vitamin D test (Quest or LabCorp) is around $70-80, and causes no harm. The last time I saw a doctor for anything other than an annual physical, my D level was 24.5, and once my levels were good I stopped taking sleep and anxiety meds too, so the insurance company actually saves far more than the cost of an annual test. And even though the increase in quality of life counts for nothing in those sorts of cost-benefit analyses, it matters a lot to me.

The problem is that medical systems are focused on disease, not health, even though optimizing heath would prevent a lot of disease. Vitamin D deficiency is linked to heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, increased risk of infection, several types of cancer, depression, anxiety, and osteoporosis, so a $70 test seems like a pretty cheap way to either rule out or fix a basic issue that has incredibly wide-ranging implications for human health. 

Western medicine seems to hyperfocus on heart disease so doctors will watch BP and cholesterol numbers like a hawk and jump to prescribing meds even before they're needed, while simultaneously shrugging off the possibility of even severe vitamin deficiencies as "eh, you can take a pill if you're worried about it, no need for testing." That just seems backwards to me.

I don't know.  $80 per person annually for an entire population is a lot of money - in the billions for a population of 35 million.  All to find out what we already know: that supplementation is likely required for everyone.  So to just skip the tests and recommend that everyone supplement with D is a sensible and cost efficient strategy.

All screening programs can cause harm, even ones that seem benign.  There are harms associated with false positives and false negatives, and harms from diverting energy and time into interventions that don't make a difference.  All these harms get magnified when screening entire populations.

Vitamin D research is still ongoing. I  think that we know that lower levels are correlated with poor health, BUT: 

I don't think we actually know if that's causal, or whether lower D levels are a proxy for general poor health and frailty - that perhaps those in poor health stay indoors a lot and therefore have lower D levels as a result of their health status rather than as a cause. (excluding ricketts and osteomalacia, of course)

Optimum levels have not been conclusively established, even for bone health.

I don't think that it's been established that supplementation regimens that target particular numbers make any meaningful difference in outcomes as compared to general supplementation without screening blood levels.

All of these need to be established and supported by evidence in order to support a publicly funded population based screening program.  As of yet, they haven't been, I don't think.

(Vitamin D is the only supplement my family takes, and we tend to skip it in the summer.  We support our nutrition, to paraphrase Michael Pollan, by eating (real) food, mostly plants, not too much)

 

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On 11/11/2021 at 1:32 AM, wathe said:

Yes, I was talking about acute covid.  

I am glad that you are finally feeling better.

Using vitamins in place of proven medical prevention (vaccines) and  treatment for acute covid is absolutely happening, with tragic consequences.  @TCB and I see the consequences, over and over again, up close and personal.  I can't speak for TCB, but I'm tired of watching people die because vitamins!.  It's horrible.

I don't think that anyone knows what works for long covid.  Which is not surprising: I don't think long covid has been adequately defined yet, and certainly the pathophys isn't yet understood. I think we will get there, but it will take years.

Western medicine, like all disciplines, has limits.  Management of acute infections and critical illness is something it does very well - such as keeping super-sick covid patients alive, and preventing them from getting super-sick in the first place (vaccines!).  

I agree it’s horrible to see people relying on these things that are not keeping them safe, and turning down the vaccines that might well have kept them safe.

We have had family member after family member ask the Drs what they could have done differently to have avoided serious illness and death for their family member, and when the dr says vaccination may well have helped they say oh no we couldn’t do that. 

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3 hours ago, TCB said:

We have had family member after family member ask the Drs what they could have done differently to have avoided serious illness and death for their family member, and when the dr says vaccination may well have helped they say oh no we couldn’t do that. 

Were they really saying death was preferable to their loved one being vaccinated? What is the reasoning behind that?

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1 hour ago, bookbard said:

Were they really saying death was preferable to their loved one being vaccinated? What is the reasoning behind that?

I think the problem is that there is no reasoning other than that they are not going to comply with vaccination, or maybe they don’t believe that the vaccinations are protective.

Edited by TCB
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21 hours ago, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I take one 5,000 IU softgel per day, Costco’s Kirkland brand, which keeps my level around 60-70.

K2 also helps move calcium into bone so either make sure you’re getting enough from your diet or take a supplement. Magnesium also helps vitamin D. Many people don’t get enough in their daily diet so you might want to check the foods you typically eat to get an idea.

If you do supplement, it would be a good idea to get your vitamin D tested. I usually test mine once or twice a year using a finger poke test, such as Grassroots Health, or I order a test from WalkIn Labs and just go in to a local facility and have it done there.

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9 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

K2 also helps move calcium into bone so either make sure you’re getting enough from your diet or take a supplement. Magnesium also helps vitamin D.

Do you focus on dietary sources of K2, or do you supplement that as well? 

Good idea to get tested annually, thanks.

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The national mandate for vaccination goes into effect on Monday for all teachers (early childhood, primary, and secondary) and all healthcare workers (nurses, midwifes, doctors, home-care people). If you do not have your first jab by then, you will be fired. And because this is a national mandate, there are no other jobs in the field to go to. It is not just for the *public* schools and health care settings, it is for ALL schools and health care settings. So if you won't get vaccinated, you lose not only your job, but your career. These 2 professions were picked because children are not able to be vaccinated, and health care workers deal with the sick and vulnerable.

The anti-vax crowd is currently blocking major highways in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch in protest. But given that 90% of the country now has its first jab, they do not have a lot of support. They have promised to continue to block roads until the mandate is overturned.  The high court has already ruled that the mandate meets NZ's human rights laws. I think I will avoid the roads for a few days/weeks 🙂  

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10 minutes ago, lewelma said:

The anti-vax crowd is currently blocking major highways in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch in protest. But given that 90% of the country now has its first jab, they do not have a lot of support.

Yes, it's amazing how such a small group can be so loud - after all, of that 10% unvaccinated there'd be a number who can't be or hadn't got around to it yet etc. I feel like I know so many anti-vaxxers but the vax rate where we live is over 90%.

NSW had no deaths today which is wonderful. 250 cases. Weird how it's been hovering around that number for so long. No word on kid vaccines which is alarming. 

ACT has 11 cases and VIC 1221 - so awful that they have been around that number for ages too. But they started opening up when it was 1500 cases so it'll take ages to come down I guess. The school situation sounds just shocking down there, so many kids getting exposed. They had a special advert on how to care for your child with Covid - far out that is crazy. 

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New study suggests vaccines provide significantly better protection against hospitalization than prior infection

The study included more than 7000 hospitalized covid patients who had either been fully vaccinated 90-179 days prior to testing positive, or had a previous PCR-confirmed infection 90-179 days prior to testing positive for reinfection. Conclusion: people with "natural immunity" from prior infection were 5 times more likely to be hospitalized with covid than those who had 2 doses of mRNA vaccine (with Moderna providing slightly more protection than Pfizer).

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w

 

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3 hours ago, Acadie said:

Do you focus on dietary sources of K2, or do you supplement that as well? 

Good idea to get tested annually, thanks.

I get a decent amount of K2 from my diet as it is, but I also take a supplement. Currently, I’m taking Now brand, MK-7, 100 mcg usually one per day. Sometimes I take Thorne brand drops of D3/MK-4. Just depends what we ordered.

Getting enough K2 is very important. It’s worth reading about and one of my favorite resources is Chris Masterjohn’s website. His information is very detailed and he updates as he learns more.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource

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On 11/11/2021 at 7:40 PM, Acadie said:

What D3/K2 supplements do people take, and in what dosage? 

We've been taking NOW 1000 IU D3 and 45 mcg K2 daily. Dd15 has a genetic tendency to low D, and I'm wondering if we should increase the dosage. With supplementation no one in our family has ever tested high, but dd15's levels have always been the lowest. 

I’m new to this. I’ve never been very disciplined about taking supplements, but here is what I’ve just started:

Nordic Naturals vitamin D3 drops/liquid sourced from lichen

Vitacost vitamin K2 (MK-7) with nattokinase 

Citrical Petites (calcium citrate)

Natural Calm, plain (magnesium carbonate+citric acid forms magnesium citrate when dissolved in warm water)

I had no idea how interdependent these micronutrients are—how they work together and best in certain ratios. 

Edited by popmom
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On 11/11/2021 at 3:50 PM, Corraleno said:

In my entire life I have only had two doctors who knew anything at all about nutrition, and they are both female DOs, not MDs.  

When we were struggling to get DS diagnosed with what turned out to be Lyme disease, one of the doctors ran a whole slew of tests including D3 — DS's level was 12 ng/ml, which is severe deficiency. Like that is rickets level, bordering on psychosis level. Not only did the doctor not mention it, after I looked at the test results myself and specifically asked him about it, he insisted that the level "wasn't that bad" but I could give DS 800 IU/day if I was concerned about it. That prompted me to ask my own MD to test my D3, which she resisted, claiming it was unnecessary since we lived in the desert and got plenty of sun. I insisted she order the test and my level was 10! She said that was "a little low" and I could take 1000 IU if I wanted to. IMO telling patients who have severe vitamin D deficiencies that it's really not a problem and there's no need to supplement unless they really want to is medical malpractice. 

I feel like the doctors would rather have us get on psychotic or other meds before they recommend higher levels of D3, Magnesium, etc., or avoiding all caffeine (after the emotional lift, caffeine can make me extremely depressed and sad) and other dietary triggers.

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9 hours ago, popmom said:

I’m new to this. I’ve never been very disciplined about taking supplements, but here is what I’ve just started:

Nordic Naturals vitamin D3 drops/liquid sourced from lichen

Vitacost vitamin K2 (MK-7) with nattokinase 

Citrical Petites (calcium citrate)

Natural Calm, plain (magnesium carbonate+citric acid forms magnesium citrate when dissolved in warm water)

I had no idea how interdependent these micronutrients are—how they work together and best in certain ratios. 

How did you figure out the ratios?

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On 11/11/2021 at 1:48 AM, Jean in Newcastle said:

Yes.  My allopathic doc, who is an excellent allopathic doc, struggles with my chronic illness.  He can, and does suggest the obvious lifestyle helps including a healthy diet and exercise but he knows his limitations.  He will often ask me what my naturopathic doc suggests for my chronic pain/illness management and encourages me to follow his advice. 

That said, the best naturopathic docs I've had were ones who still took a scientific approach to medicine.  I've been burned by those who treat with "crystals" and other woo.  Definitely give me supplements, but give me a bloodtest (if there is one) first.  Sometimes we will do a trial on something when tests show that I'm borderline - where a conservative allopathic doc might not treat but my naturopathic doctor is going by symptoms. 

As far as chiropractors go, in my state (and I suspect a lot of states) they are only supposed to adjust your spine.  They are not supposed to be treating with supplements or providing broader treatment.  I would not trust one who went out of his lane. 

Covid 19 is still a novel illness.  We certainly know more than we did at the start of 2020, but there is still so much that we don't know or are just starting to explore.   Medicine has always been an art as much as a science - I know that I've never been a textbook case and doctors do need to make educated guesses at times.  But of course, the guiding principle is "first, do no harm".  And with Covid, providing "placebos" like Ivermectin (my opinion), is harmful even at human doses because it gives a false sense of security with a communicable disease. 

I have two autoimmune diseases and my regular doc (who is excellent - he listens, takes plenty of time with me etc.) is so frustrated with his inability to help beyond a maintenance level   that he’s doing a deep dive and certification in functional medicine. He is very aware that traditional western medicine mostly ignores nutrition, supplements etc. and is convinced that that is a huge mistake. He leans sciency, for sure, and will not tolerate “woo”. Together, he and I are working on strategies to address my health issues beyond not getting worse and standard test numbers ok.

VERY thankful to have this doc! And his nurse practitioners, who are all headed the same way.

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3 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

I have two autoimmune diseases and my regular doc (who is excellent - he listens, takes plenty of time with me etc.) is so frustrated with his inability to help beyond a maintenance level   that he’s doing a deep dive and certification in functional medicine.

I have been very fortunate to find a nurse practitioner who does this, but solely for women's health issues. She is very careful to not go down other rabbit holes that won't lead anywhere either. 

I have to say though that it can be slow to see change with nutrition, at least in my body. She'll Rx things too, if needed. 

I wish I had tried her earlier. 

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I haven’t been doing much posting here sorry as life has been hectic and numbers are pretty much stable.  VIC and NSW dropped a bit today (905 and 195) but probably only due to the weekend testing effect. Qld is chasing another mini outbreak with some unlinked cases. Vax numbers are really good, I think if we could get kids vaxed we could really get on top of this thing at least for the short term. The latest indicator is early January at the earliest.

Edited by Ausmumof3
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15 hours ago, Susannah said:

How did you figure out the ratios?

I really didn’t. I’m not trying that hard. Cronometer tells me the ratios. (((ETA: Cronometer isn’t always accurate. I sometimes have to double check my food entries if I can see something is off. Example, one of the entries for Wholly Guacamole didn’t show any potassium at all. There are usually multiple choices, so another one accurately recorded the potassium.))Today I can see I need more potassium, so maybe I’ll have some avocado with NoSalt before bed. 🙂

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Edited by popmom
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2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

China seems to be having a big outbreak again.  Chinese state news sites are talking about over 1000 cases. 

My state, which has one of the lowest case rates in the US, is racking up more than that daily, and with a tiny fraction of China's population.  An outbreak, maybe, but that isn't all that big... hopefully they'll squash it.

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On 11/11/2021 at 10:14 PM, Laura Corin said:

Screening isn't routine here unless there's a particular reason. However, my mum's gastro screened because 'everyone has low vitamin D in this horrible climate.' Her levels were fine.

Supplementation is recommended for everyone in Scotland  - even southern Scotland is on a similar latitude to the Alaskan peninsula. 

England's similar - every adult's recommended to supplement with a regular over-the-counter Vitamin D supplement of their choice (or multivitamin that includes Vitamin D) that has at least 100% recommended daily allowance of the vitamin, for at least October-April (or all year for people who spend most of their time indoors). For anyone who finds this curious, the Midlands in central England are on the same latitude as Moscow.

Anything beyond that would only be tested for if reporting a specific condition that a doctor thought might be treatable/partially treatable with a stronger Vitamin D supplement. Those people are typically prescribed a Vitamin D supplement at whatever level is indicated appropriate for their condition, which would usually be more than 100% recommended daily allowance.

Said testing and recommendation would most often involve a medical nutritionist, with a general practitioner's main job being to decide who needs to be put on the nutritionist's waiting list. Some other pathways may lead to a Vitamin D test for specific conditions affected by the vitamin.

(Not routinely bringing up Vitamin D tests has an additional advantage to the NHS. By assuming everyone will get themselves a standard-issue Vitamin D/multivitamin from a supermarket/pharmacy as recommended means that prescriptions only need to be issued for people who either need it more than usual, or are eligible for free/reduced prescription costs due to poverty or already needing several other medications. This saves a lot of resources on processing prescriptions for standard-level vitamins).

Edited by ieta_cassiopeia
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My insurance only pays for vitamin D testing if you are found to be deficient. But of course you need testing to be found to be deficient. I have no issues with people in my area (an area known to have widespread vitamin d deficiency) taking lower daily doses of vitamin d. But I take high doses. That definitely needs to be monitored. In fact it’s been a few years since I was last tested and it’s worth it to me to pay for testing myself to make sure that I am within range. 

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