Male Teacher Punished for Refusing to Watch

[Spy Car]

Just now, texasmom33 said:

Well I'm not the one on this thread calling a bunch of women mindless consumers of garbage. If that makes me a sexist for thinking women are smart enough to make their own decisions over what media they chose to consume without a man handing down his edict, then I guess I'm proud to be a sexist in your eyes.

If someone could refer me to whichever misogyny handbook rule I broke it would be much appreciated! 

Who said women? You. Not me. It is reprehensible. 

The Daily Wire is a fake-news source. Check it out.

Good grief.

Bill

 

[LMD]

Reverse sexism isn't a thing, women as a class don't oppress men as a class historically or institutionally, so don't stress texasmom. It's like accusing someone of reverse racism. Not the most intellectual of insults.

Eta - maybe 12 too? Poor victims of reverse sexism.

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by LMD

[TCB]

2 hours ago, Daria said:

We don't know that the kid ever undressed in the locker room, or wanted to undress in the locker room.  I'm assuming from the "students may take showers" that this student never did take a shower.   So, it's quite possible that the teacher was blowing something out of proportion. 

I assume that in going to the media, the teacher wanted something.  Their job reinstated?  The policy changed?  Attention?  Now, maybe it was a reasonable request, but that's hard to say when he's being represented by an organization that has it's own agenda, as evidenced by the fact that the organization, Liberty Counsel, that seems to be speaking on his behalf, is also advocating for changes in how the district uses pronouns, and stopping the gay straight alliance.  

 

I read the article and I did not read anything about stopping the gay straight alliance, but rather that the mother wanted a policy of permission slips for all clubs. In my opinion the way you put it in your post was misleading and only increases the division about this subject. I, personally, am sick and tired of the inflammatory rhetoric from both sides of all these arguments, and would love to be able to read just the bare bones facts as much as possible without all the spin.

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Go gaslight somebody else Bill. It's not working. 

Gaslight? Do you know what that word means?

The Daily Wire is a garbage outfit. Completely disreputable. That's the truth.

It is a shame that you are proud to proclaim yourself a sexist. I thought better of you.

Bill

 

 

[Liz CA]

Who would have thought a thread on PE and bathrooms would be so entertaining? I almost did not click on it.

My two cents: I think the teacher was trying to protect himself from potential charges; I don't see any way this could be misconstrued as bullying or discrimination but when the rules of logic are discarded as is frequently the case these days, one is free to interpret anything any way one likes. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

The gulag...

You are the only one who doesn't support basic human rights.

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

28 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Ah yes, it looks as if I'm guilty of breaking rules 3, 7, and 9. 

@LMD, can you help me out here? Did I miss any? 

 

You figured out gaslighting. Congratulations.

Bill

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Please carry on my legacy as I walk down this dark path to Stepford or wherever the gulag is.......??

I think trans people should be treated with respect. Don't you?

Bill

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, kiwik said:

We only had male PE teachers.  I suppose it is possible they went in the male changing rooms but they certainly weren't in the women's ones.  At least one did look up girls skirts and down their tops though.

I had male teachers a few times, but mostly female.  but that was in the day when our classes were girls PE and boys PE.  but I was in school when that changed to a combined class (when we started having men.) - but the women PE teachers were in the girls locker room to make sure there was no untoward behavior going on.

 

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It just occurred to me that showers in schools for Pe must be a us thing?  Or did I go the one school in Aus that didn’t have them.  Sport just happened last thing in the day and everyone went home and showered there.

PE can happen any time during the school day - including first period.   no one took showers.   it used to be required - but that got dropped because of pushback and how uncomfortable it makes kids to be naked in front of 40 other kids of the same gender.   it's hard on middle school girls.  some have a chesh - and some don't.  and kids can be plain mean.

 

38 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

Who would have thought a thread on PE and bathrooms would be so entertaining? I almost did not click on it.

My two cents: I think the teacher was trying to protect himself from potential charges; I don't see any way this could be misconstrued as bullying or discrimination but when the rules of logic are discarded as is frequently the case these days, one is free to interpret anything any way one likes. 

and we don't even need kilts or cupcakes!

26 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Please carry on my legacy as I walk down this dark path to Stepford or wherever the gulag is.......??

not all bad - it's smoke free.  (we're supposed to be getting california smoke soon. . . again.)

[Condessa]

Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

Right. It is because you are trolling the forum with right-wing fake news. That sucks. Bigotry sucks.

Please stop.

Bill

 

[LMD]

5 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

Oh don't worry, Bill has form.

[Condessa]

I am not trolling.  I honestly wanted to have a conversation and hear people’s thoughts on this current event.  You were provided a different news source where you could have read about the issue if you were here to engage in discussion rather than to attack people.  I have asked anyone with any knowledge of this source providing incorrect information to let me know, which you have chosen not to do.  

On what basis do you label me a bigot?  Solely because I read an article on a website you disapprove of?  Seriously, man, you come here with no intention of actually finding out what we’re talking about or engaging in the conversation, start throwing around names, and say that I’m trolling?  

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, LMD said:

Oh don't worry, Bill has form.

 

It is such a shame when someone enters a thread with the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the OP and the other participants in the thread and telling them what they should and should not be posting, rather than actually joining the conversation and treating others with respect. It does nothing but derail the thread by making people angry, although I suspect that was his intent when he started posting in this thread.

Frankly, I think Michelle has been very gracious to everyone who posted here, yet she has now been called both a troll and a bigot. I think that’s terrible, and entirely uncalled-for.

[unsinkable]

If mansplaining isn't working, try "disappointed daddy." If that fails, combine the two. If that doesn't work, go straight on to abuse.

 

 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Michelle Conde said:

I am not trolling.  I honestly wanted to have a conversation and hear people’s thoughts on this current event.  You were provided a different news source where you could have read about the issue if you were here to engage in discussion rather than to attack people.  I have asked anyone with any knowledge of this source providing incorrect information to let me know, which you have chosen not to do.  

On what basis do you label me a bigot?  Solely because I read an article on a website you disapprove of?  Seriously, man, you come here with no intention of actually finding out what we’re talking about or engaging in the conversation, start throwing around names, and say that I’m trolling?  

 

No one else here thinks you are a troll, Michelle. ?

Rather than responding to the insults and accusations, you might want to consider clicking on the Report Post button in the upper right hand corner of each post, as I believe name-calling and personal insults are against forum rules.

I hope we can get back to discussing your original topic, as I have found this thread very interesting, and all of us (except for one) were having a nice, civil conversation even when people disagreed with each other. I hope that can continue.

[Condessa]

I’d be interested to hear how parents here would want a situation like this handled if it were affecting their children (either imagining your kid in the position of the transgender child or the other boys using the locker room).  

[Condessa]

I know that I would not be at all okay with a man watching my biologically-female child undress.  I also wouldn’t feel very comfortable with that child changing with pubescent boys, supervised or unsupervised.  So I guess that leaves the girls’ locker room or a private space to change.  I would advocate for a private space if that was what my child felt more comfortable with.  Maybe not a perfect solution, but it seems the safest while trying to be accommodating.  

If it were my son who’d been surprised in the locker room with this, I would be pretty upset.  It seems like if the school administration feels it would infringe on the transgender child’s rights to dictate which locker room they could use, they should at least let the boys know, so that if they were uncomfortable being undressed in front of a person of the opposite biological sex they at least had the option to use a bathroom stall to change.  No one should be forced to be in a situation where they are undressed in front of anyone they don’t want to be, ever, in my opinion.  

Edited November 16, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[Frances]

5 hours ago, Daria said:

 

My kid was a 3 sport athlete in high school.  In that time, he took one shower at school, on a day when there was a dance after practice.  I asked him once why he didn't shower more often, and he said that while it was conceivably allowed, no one did it.  

The kicker on his high school football team was a cisgender girl.  She suited up in the boys locker room.  It was never an issue, the boys figured it out.  

I have trouble believing that the young man in this question planned to take a shower.  "May" means it's conceivably possible.  It doesn't mean that it's something that actually would have happened.

In talking to friends, neighbors, and relatives this definitely seems to be the norm now. Most students never use the school showers and many said they even go into bathroom stalls to change in private. This is completely different from when I went to school. We were required to shower after middle school PE and there was a monitor present and most chose to shower after high school sports and PE, despite there being only open group showers and changing areas. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Frances

[LucyStoner]

Wait a second.  

Why would any teacher be expected to watch the school locker rooms?  

I don’t recall the gym teachers, male or female, ever coming in to the locker room unless it was before or after everyone was changed.  

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Michelle Conde said:

Let’s be fair to Bill.  Just because he is a man and was speaking rudely to women does not mean he was rude because we are women.  That would only hold water if you had reason to believe he would not have spoken that way if we were men.  I don’t think there’s any evidence to that assumption—I rather imagine he would have been just as brusque in his ad hominem attack and as unwilling to support his statements, whoever he was talking to.  It’s unfair to label him a sexist without reason to believe that was his motivation.

the henry higgins defense.  

     The question is not whether I've treated you rudely but whether you've ever heard me treat anyone else better.

though if we were to believe his claims of his own behavior, he treats everyone with respect. . . . .

good reason to go with actions rather than claims.

 

[SKL]

When I was in Jr High school, showers were required every day, and teachers / gym aides did watch to confirm you actually showered.  The only exception was if you used the "private showers" set aside for girls on their periods.

I think a trans person in the bathroom that does not match his/her sex should shower and dress in private.  To Cat's questions, if it were my kids, I would not want them on either side of that situation.

And supervision of the room in general would be important to prevent violence or other harm.  When I was in school, fights in the locker rooms were common, just because apparently gym class brings out the worst in some people.  We all know that a trans person is more likely than average to be picked on.  Leaving the person alone with a bunch of pubescent boys would be extremely irresponsible IMO.

[Peaceseeker]

4 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

I know that I would not be at all okay with a man watching my biologically-female child undress.  I also wouldn’t feel very comfortable with that child changing with pubescent boys, supervised or unsupervised.  So I guess that leaves the girls’ locker room or a private space to change.  I would advocate for a private space if that was what my child felt more comfortable with.  Maybe not a perfect solution, but it seems the safest while trying to be accommodating.  

If it were my son who’d been surprised in the locker room with this, I would be pretty upset.  It seems like if the school administration feels it would infringe on the transgender child’s rights to dictate which locker room they could use, they should at least let the boys know, so that if they were uncomfortable being undressed in front of a person of the opposite biological sex they at least had the option to use a bathroom stall to change.  No one should be forced to be in a situation where they are undressed in front of anyone they don’t want to be, ever, in my opinion.  

I would not be ok with an adult male watching my biological male child undress either.  Or for that matter, all the other biological boys in the dressing room watching him undress or shower.  I think as a parent I would be way more concerned with men and boys being around my potentially naked male child than a transgender student.  The latter sounds perhaps uncomfortable, but not dangerous to my child.  Pedophiles and boys with broomstick engaging in hazing rituals are a bigger potential problem on my radar as a parent of a young teen boy in a locker room.  If I was the parent of a transgender child, my concerns for their safety would be the same.

I would advocate for private spaces for ALL children to change, shower, and use the bathroom.  

Edited November 16, 2018 by CaliforniaDreamin

[Paige]

 

1 minute ago, CaliforniaDreamin said:

I would not be ok with an adult male watching my biological male child undress either.  Or for that matter, all the other biological boys in the dressing room watching him undress or shower.  I think as a parent I would be way more concerned with men and boys being around my potentially naked male child than a transgender student.  The latter sounds perhaps uncomfortable, but not dangerous.  Pedophiles and boys with broomstick engaging in hazing rituals are a bigger potential problem on my radar as a parent of a young teen boy in a locker room.  

I would advocate for private spaces for ALL children to change, shower, and use the bathroom.  

I agree. I don't think keeping locker rooms single sex makes them any safer for anyone, but especially not teens and preteens, and they are outdated. How many generations of kids need to have stories of scary or humiliating experiences in locker rooms before we reevaluate the custom?  

In this day of #metoo, anti bullying campaigns, and so many crimes against children by adults of both sexes, why would we think female/female or male/male assault and harassment aren't things to be concerned about and it's just fine to have adults in power supervising groups of undressed children? 

[Rosie_0801]

Bill, you are not the board police. 

Everyone else, don't feed the troll.

Bill, if you want to object to this post, take it up with Susan privately.

[Joker]

First, do we actually know if he is in trouble? The local article has the school spokesperson stating they have absolutely not threatened their jobs so I'm confused on what's stated in their OP's original linked source.

Second, often when these cases go further legally it comes out the locker rooms, like most I'm familiar with lately, have actual lockable bathrooms within the locker rooms that the transgender student/s or any other student using the locker room may use if they want. I don't know any transgender student who wishes to change in front of anyone, of either sex, due to their body issues. They usually just want access to the rooms with which they identify.

At my son's school he was originally told he had use the ONE single sex bathroom that was located in the nurse's office. His high school is huge and we pointed out that just wasn't going to work. He always used the boys rooms and had zero issues. The locker rooms for PE here all had at least one lockable bathroom and no teachers were watching any students change. They usually hovered at the door to listen for any trouble and to tell students to hurry up. 

I also don't agree that middle and high school students should need permission slips to join a GSA club. Many kids can't tell their parents about their LGBT status and I don't see it helping anything to take away maybe the one place they feel accepted. I could see telling them to stop referring them out but without more information I don't know what that really looks like at this school. 

I also am 100% against the teachers in the OP thinking they should have a right to out a transgender student to other students and parents. WTH? Not okay and the school is right to enforce a police not to disclose personal information about students. I know many think they can always tell but with people transitioning earlier now I don't believe it's going to always be that way and it would be so wrong to suddenly out someone who's been living that way since they were single digits. Heck, my son went through puberty and didn't start hormones until he was 17 but within a year he had developed facial hair, an adam's apple, and his voice was most definitely male sounding. We're only two years in now and it's a remarkable difference. I can't imagine  what he might look like if he had started the process as early as some are now. 

 

[BarbecueMom]

5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

Wait a second.  

Why would any teacher be expected to watch the school locker rooms?  

I don’t recall the gym teachers, male or female, ever coming in to the locker room unless it was before or after everyone was changed.  

Seriously.  I was in middle school in the mid 90s and there was no showering (shower stalls sometimes used for changing) and no adult supervision.  The school decided it was better for classmates to sexually abuse each other than risk an teacher staring too long at a kid in front of 40 other kids and word getting out.

Because obviously 10-12 year olds can’t assault anyone because they’re just kids.... *eyeroll*

[shawthorne44]

I am surprised that so many people remember NOT showering.    

The girls didn't shower at my school even on the rare days that we ran laps.  But, that was because the two female gym teachers would laugh and leer at anyone they saw undressed.   They had complete view of the showers.   So, everyone would huddle to change in the corners of the bays where they couldn't be seen.   The boys showered.  

I remember a boy in class starting to give a girl in class grief for stinking of B.O.    Another girl shushed him and said, "She has first period gym."   He shushed.  

[wendyroo]

I am 100% against unsupervised locker rooms.  I was horribly bullied throughout school and I refused to even use the bathrooms because everyone knew that it was a free for all as soon as we were out of the teachers' view.  I avoided the locker rooms entirely by taking my required gym classes (and very few were required in my state) over the summer and then going home to shower.

As for what I would want to happen if the student in question was my son, I would like to ask him how he would be most comfortable.  I think there are a lot of options that would meet everyone's needs.  Maybe he could change in the nurse's office or another private bathroom.  Maybe they could deliberately schedule his PE for the last period of the day so he could shower at home.  Maybe his PE could be schedule before a study hour and he could hang back and shower after all the other students had cleared out.  Maybe he could do PE as an "independent study" and log physical activity hours at home and submit a few short papers about health and physical fitness.

Wendy

[Jen500]

Well, the concerns about where the student should change, and teachers 'observing' are valid....

All this talk about showering is most likely not that relevant. The middle schoolers are NOT showering. They won't even be given enough time to shower if they wanted to. And this in Florida (lol) and it's likely that most of the boys aren't changing clothes anyways. Athletic shorts worn year round.

[Aura]

I think locker rooms should be supervised. Let's say you have 30 other students in a locker room and one teacher. If something untoward was going to happen, odds are that it would be from one of the other students. And if one student starts, it's very possible that others will join in. Any decent adult is not going to gawk at a bunch of sweaty, stinky kids in a locker room. If the teacher isn't decent, then that moves into a whole other area of conversation that involves screening and reporting procedures and believing students if they complain, not victim blaming, etc.

What I don't understand is this gag order. So this "obvious girl" is changing with the boys... but the teacher is going to out him by simply saying something???

[TravelingChris]

12 hours ago, CaliforniaDreamin said:

Well I am always super cautious about adults and children but then you have story after story like this:

https://abc11.com/news/va-hs-football-players-facing-sodomy-hazing-charges/1085620/

Which makes me feel like locker rooms DO need adult supervision.  I guess locker rooms need some kind of redesign with lockable doors to shower/change in with a common area for things like putting on gear/shoes/etc....Adult could stay in common area and supervise with a sight line to the showers to make sure only one kid per stall.  2 adults would be the best scenario to protect both youth and adults.  This should work for transgender students as well. Expensive but I think this is the way we are headed. I would not want my son in a locker room at all right now, but I would be much more concerned with a possible culture of hazing by straight males than I would be about a tween or teen transgender student personally.

 

 

I had the no privacy communal shower and locker room situation.  The female gym teacher was a bully and so were a number of the students in my gym class.  I lied about having a period a lot in order not to take the shower.  I also would sneak off to toilets too.   There is often more going on in gym locker rooms than just transgender issues.  

Overall though, I do not think people with opposite sexed bodies should be involuntarily changing together.  And then you also get the issue of all sorts of religions who frown upon that kind of familiarization and what about their rights?  Does an Orthodox Jewish boy have to be in the co-ed changing area or the Moslem or the Hindu or the Christian who also follows those kinds of proscriptions?  And you bring up other points too- as in some of the hazing and harassment issues also involved teachers or coaches.  Is the transgendered person with the female body even safe in a locker roomful of young males?

[SKL]

As far as informing the other kids, I think it can be done in a generic way, e.g., this is a diverse school in all ways, including LGBT, you don't need to know who but you need to know how to respect everyone, give people their privacy and dignity, and if you violate these it will be treated as __ subject to section __ of the discipline code.  If you have any questions about different groups and how to respect them, you can ask ___ or here are some resources.

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, BarbecueMom said:

Seriously.  I was in middle school in the mid 90s and there was no showering (shower stalls sometimes used for changing) and no adult supervision.  The school decided it was better for classmates to sexually abuse each other than risk an teacher staring too long at a kid in front of 40 other kids and word getting out.

Because obviously 10-12 year olds can’t assault anyone because they’re just kids.... *eyeroll*

 

I’m not disputing that unsupervised kids can and do do appalling things.  I’m just surprised supervision of locker room time is going on at all.  

My sons school doesn’t offer gym.  You have to get your PE credits in your own time.  I can’t say I have a problem with that.  That’s how it was at the second high school I attended as well.  

[SKL]

Schools should definitely have an option to do phys ed / activity outside of school.

[Farrar]

Kids don't get fully naked in a big room anymore. They just don't. There has been a dramatic shift in locker room culture in the US in terms of nudity. When today's parents were in high school, yeah, that was a thing that happened. With everything I've read about this shift and observed in pool locker rooms in the last decade, I'd be FLOORED if middle schoolers stripped beyond underwear in the locker room and they might not even do that. A lot of schools around here don't even have kids change into gym clothes anymore. They just let them be smelly rather than deal with locker room "issues."

I thought the local article was pretty balanced. No one lost their job. The schools have a policy of trying to work with individuals. These are the guidelines, not hard fast rules for every situation.

I'm beyond sick of these threads in the last month. They follow a pattern. Someone posts the "shocking" "how dare trans people demand this or that" thing they found - in this case on an extremely slanted site and then everyone chimes in with their shock and dismay about the existence of trans people needing basic rights.

[Bluegoat]

9 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

It is such a shame when someone enters a thread with the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the OP and the other participants in the thread and telling them what they should and should not be posting, rather than actually joining the conversation and treating others with respect. It does nothing but derail the thread by making people angry, although I suspect that was his intent when he started posting in this thread.

Frankly, I think Michelle has been very gracious to everyone who posted here, yet she has now been called both a troll and a bigot. I think that’s terrible, and entirely uncalled-for.

 

I have no idea why Bill hasn't been banned for being an out and out troll.  

[dirty ethel rackham]

19 minutes ago, SKL said:

Schools should definitely have an option to do phys ed / activity outside of school.

Oh, I agree.  At our local high school, only kids playing certain varsity sports get an exemption from gym and only during that sport's season.  But there are lots of elite club athletes who train year-round, doing much more physical activity than the gym classes, but they can't get an exemption.  That was part of the reason why we didn't have dd enrolled full time.  She didn't have time to take gym when she was training 15 hours a week for her sport (not including the commute.)  It has been an issue that parents are bringing up. 

That said, this school's PE program is much more fitness oriented than sports oriented.  There is at least one unit each year that focuses on non-sports fitness - doing cardio using heart rate monitors, strength training etc.  I think that juniors and seniors get to choose many of their PE units 

 

[Bluegoat]

8 hours ago, Frances said:

In talking to friends, neighbors, and relatives this definitely seems to be the norm now. Most students never use the school showers and many said they even go into bathroom stalls to change in private. This is completely different from when I went to school. We were required to shower after middle school PE and there was a monitor present and most chose to shower after high school sports and PE, despite there being only open group showers and changing areas. 

 

I've noticed this a lot in pool changing rooms and such as well. Generally when I was a kid, people changed openly, and while teen girls were often shy adults would walk around in the buff.  Now everyone is in a stall or hiding.  I don't know if it's similar for men.

I am not convinced this is a good thing.  It seems the only common exposure we get now to other women's bodies are in advertising and tv, and those don't tend to give a normal impression of our body.

[Valley Girl]

9 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

It is such a shame when someone enters a thread with the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the OP and the other participants in the thread and telling them what they should and should not be posting, rather than actually joining the conversation and treating others with respect. It does nothing but derail the thread by making people angry, although I suspect that was his intent when he started posting in this thread.

Frankly, I think Michelle has been very gracious to everyone who posted here, yet she has now been called both a troll and a bigot. I think that’s terrible, and entirely uncalled-for.

Which sadly illustrates some of the issues people were highlighting in the earlier threads about speech. If people cannot reasonably and in good faith discuss current events without being slammed--especially when they attempt to provide more than once source and invite correction on the pertinent facts of the matter--should anyone be surprised when people (general people) double down and stop caring about being open-minded or wanting to learn about the other side on controversial issues? God help us.

[Pen]

We have some schools in our wider area with swimming pools and where swimming can be a pe option such that full change to nakedness and showers is definitely a part of locker room scene. 

Even short of that we have run into changing issues for example with regard to ice skating when Ds has been the sole boy. (Born boy, identifying as male). In general he has been used to wearing things where he does not need to change pants and has changed costume shirts in public view.  Thus Allowing the one dressing room to be all girls without emotional distress. There is one child born girl, girl body, who self identifies as male who uses male restroom, (but not the urinals), and who I think changes with the girls in the dressing room.  

I think the partial enclosure of toilet and shower stalls in public changing rooms is experienced by many of us as a safety matter. It is easier to hide in a stall with partitions all the way down. Without that it takes standing on the toilet or something like that. It is also easier to get help in a non fully enclosed stall. 

And I think a lot of programs like school pe cannot provide individual change rooms for every student for space and cost reasons. But perhaps there could be 3 options — male, female, non binary.   Or perhaps people could get used to more public nudity and changing in front of others wouldn’t be seen as a big deal anymore. 

The teacher, faced with two bad options seems to me to have chosen the right one. Had he supervised and then been accused of watching a girl changing he could have had sex crime accusations on his record. Really serious for a teacher. This way there are many places that are going to feel he did the right thing and it is likely to hurt him far less than the other option. 

[TravelingChris]

12 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

 It definitely has a very strong conservative bias, but I am actually okay with that in a news source so long as they are open about it, don’t te bias, or have you found instances in the past where it engaged in incorrect reporting?ry to pass off their reporting as objective, or try to obscure facts.  Some years back I despaired of finding an unbiased news source, and instead settled for reading from a variety of sources from both sides that are open about their bias.  It seemed like the only way to get a somewhat balanced picture of what was going on in the world.  It’s really a fascinating study, comparing which stories each side highlights and which each tries to sweep under the rug, and how each can spin the same story with the exact same facts to provide a different conclusion.  But I have two different categories; those which need to be read with a grain of salt for bias, but whose facts are generally reliable, and those I have found to be dishonest, which I glance at very occasionally in order to get an idea of where people on either extreme are getting their perspectives from.

1

This  

I read a lot of news and even more, I skim headlines.  I have also found other non-traditional news sources too- like locally, there is Nextdoor neighbor and statewide, there is a email service I get that gives me more news and different news than I get through local news channels or through the paper.  Other sources are foreign press, bloggers and reporters who are independent and reporting on news that they are interested in, Reason (which is libertarian and reports on many things that are not in widespread media, etc.  Like an interesting news blog I ran into is some pilot guy who shares news about airlines.  That is how I found out about an Air France flight that had engine issues and ending up landing in upper Siberia where the passengers were taken off but had to be guarded by Russian police because they had no visas and they were there for 72 hours.

[Bluegoat]

15 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Here's another article from a local (I think) newspaper:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/Religious-rights-group-protests-Pasco-s-treatment-of-transgender-students_172966092

 

So - just in case anyone is worried about this -The Tampa bay Times is considered a center-left paper with high marks for factual reporting.

My guess is they quite properly reported on this because it is local to them, and the Daily Wire picked it up because it fits their narrative.

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

As a parent, I would disagree with the teachers refusal to change pronouns.

I understand and respect the position against compelled speech, but  I wouldn't want a teacher to make a student  feel uncomfortable. As a parent, I'd feel a workable compromise would be for the teacher to use the child's new name, and avoid she/her pronouns, using 'they' where needed. 

 

 

3

I haven't  had any lengthy interactions with transgendered people (in fact, I am not sure how I would know that my waiter, etc is transgendered) (just passed such people in the street ever since I was a child and didn't know if they were transexuals ((what they were called then if they had surgery)) or cross dressers or ? -- and no,Bill, I was never rude and stared or made comments or anything).  However, I know that I have clicked on some links where I am so confused as to who or what they are claiming to be - I think one was a person who had a beard and looked like a man but I think was wearing pink and lavender and this person was transgendered but I wasn't even sure whether they would want to be called she or he.  With my brain fog, I am trying to train myself to refer everyone by name or title.  

[TechWife]

9 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

Wait a second.  

Why would any teacher be expected to watch the school locker rooms?  

I don’t recall the gym teachers, male or female, ever coming in to the locker room unless it was before or after everyone was changed.  

This is what I was thinking. I'm pretty creeped out by the idea of adults watching kids change clothes.

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

.  With my brain fog, I am trying to train myself to refer everyone by name or title.  

 

Same here.

And increasingly often to find ways not to use pronouns at all when possible. 

[Spy Car]

8 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Bill, you are not the board police. 

Everyone else, don't feed the troll.

Bill, if you want to object to this post, take it up with Susan privately.

 

Yes Bill. I am the board police. Susan says so.

~Rosie the Moderator

 

[TravelingChris]

3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Removed quote

 

Extremists websites are stuff like The Daily Stormer (and I only know that name because it was in my morning newspaper today and NOT because I have ever been at it) and whatever one is the Alex Jones one plus I am sure there are such sites on the far left that I have no knowledge about because the other side of extremes is not as well published.

No one has said anything disrespectul to transgendered individuals on this thread.  Many of us are talking about how we want to be respectful to everyone. Suggestions like talking to all students in a general discussion about treating everyone kindly including LGBTQ have been made. Others have suggested other solutions.  Discussions about how showers are or are not taken at schools.  

Edited November 16, 2018 by Rosie_0801
Removed quote

[Spy Car]

The Daily Wire is an extremist website that fuels heat rather than light. They are not a credible source of "news."

Trans individuals are entitled to their full human rights.

Bill

Edited November 16, 2018 by Spy Car

[SKL]

Bill, you made your point.  The Daily Wire is fake news in your opinion.  I wouldn't know, I don't read it.  But thanks for the heads up.

Having made your point enough times, please respect that as adults we can process input from a variety of sources, utilize our free speech rights, and have a grown-up discussion.  Your attempts to derail this process come off as extremism.

And yes, I believe Rosie is the board police.