Male Teacher Punished for Refusing to Watch

[wendyroo]

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Trans individuals are entitled to their full human rights.

Yes, absolutely, of course.  But, as in all cases, their right to "swing their fist" ends at the "tip of someone else's nose."  In this situation, I think it is the school's job to ensure that one party's rights don't infringe on another's. 

That child is certainly entitled to the same treatment and use of school facilities as all his classmates.  But that right should not extend to putting the teacher in a legally and morally precarious position.  We all know what a shit storm it would be if the media got a hold of a story of a male teacher supervising a child with female genitalia in a locker room.  Even if the guy had a heart of gold and never had an impure thought, he could still lose his job and all future teaching prospects.  It could ruin his entire life.

It doesn't do society any good to treat these issues as simplistic and one sided.  There are not always easy answers; it can be hard to find solutions that are safe and respectful for everyone.  I think society moves forward not by being hit over the head with black and white maxims, but rather by discussing all the real life, grey situations and trying to improve them for everyone involved.

Wendy 

[Liz CA]

12 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

It doesn't do society any good to treat these issues as simplistic and one sided.  There are not always easy answers; it can be hard to find solutions that are safe and respectful for everyone.  I think society moves forward not by being hit over the head with black and white maxims, but rather by discussing all the real life, grey situations and trying to improve them for everyone involved.

Wendy 

 

Well said. 

[Bluegoat]

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/?s=Tampa+Bay+Times

[Farrar]

Being asked to do your job doesn't infringe on your rights. Regardless, no one forced this teacher to supervise the locker room in the end. And he still has his job. And many of us are dubious that anyone gets fully naked in plain view in the locker room in the first place.

In general, the whole "you can't make me because religion/philosophy" argument is one that has severe limits. The state can make, say, a science teacher teach evolution. They can disallow a principal who believes that God has told them that "spare the rod and spoil the child" means they need to administer physical discipline. They can fire a teacher who forces children to say the pledge of allegiance or to pray. The same defense has been used in all those cases and it does not fly in a legal sense. Your right to express your beliefs in a job is not greater than a child's right to have certain basic protections in a government school that they're compelled to attend. That doesn't mean that government employees have no rights - they do. But when they conflict with the rights of the students who are compelled to be there (or parents must find and pay for an alternative, such as private school or homeschooling), then I don't buy that this is a simple, "well, we all have rights" situation.

 

[Spy Car]

12 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/?s=Tampa+Bay+Times

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-daily-wire/

As extreme as World Net Daily.

Bill

[Bluegoat]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-daily-wire/

As extreme as World Net Daily.

Bill

 

Center left bias, in the opposite direction of the other source.  You also might not they have a high rating for factual value.

Two sources with different biases, one who is known to accurately report facts, telling the same story.  Generally that would be considered pretty reasonable.  Back when I was collating news stories for the army, that would have bee considered good sourcing for a minor story.

Your troll pants are showing pretty clearly here.

 

[Mimm]

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-daily-wire/

As extreme as World Net Daily.

Bill

Oh. My. God. Are you actually serious here?

Read this very slowly until you comprehend it: There is another news source on this story.

Even extremist news sources pick up real stories if it serves their agenda and just because a story serves the agenda of an extremist news source, doesn't mean the story is somehow invalid or false. Am I typing slow enough for you??

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, Mimm said:

Oh. My. God. Are you actually serious here?

Read this very slowly until you comprehend it: There is another news source on this story.

Even extremist news sources pick up real stories if it serves their agenda and just because a story serves the agenda of an extremist news source, doesn't mean the story is somehow invalid or false. Am I typing slow enough for you??

The other news story paints a very different picture and wasn't in the OP.

The Daily Wire version is inflammatory and aimed at undercutting the rights some of our society's most vulnerable people.

I fully comprehend what is going on here, believe me.

Bill

 

[Violet Crown]

4 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I read a lot of news and even more, I skim headlines.  I have also found other non-traditional news sources too- like locally, there is Nextdoor neighbor and statewide, there is a email service I get that gives me more news and different news than I get through local news channels or through the paper.  Other sources are foreign press, bloggers and reporters who are independent and reporting on news that they are interested in, Reason (which is libertarian and reports on many things that are not in widespread media, etc.  Like an interesting news blog I ran into is some pilot guy who shares news about airlines.  That is how I found out about an Air France flight that had engine issues and ending up landing in upper Siberia where the passengers were taken off but had to be guarded by Russian police because they had no visas and they were there for 72 hours.

While the OP would probably like her thread to stop being derailed, I think yours would be a great first post in a separate thread on alternative news sources. Obviously certain stories are going to be of too little interest to the big news providers to be covered, and will be found in sources where the readership will have a more or less common outlook that will be reflected by the editorial outlook and by the framing as well as choice of the stories covered. To use your example, Reason presumably reported that story because it had interest to their libertarian readership ("fit their narrative" we say somewhat condescendingly today); it would be unsurprising if the story was itself framed to a libertarian perspective; yet a reader who found the story interesting wouldn't necessarily be a libertarian in philosophy. It's hard to see how you can have niche news sources with out-of-the-way or less-reported news without that source having a bias of some kind. But it would be crazy to dismiss the story as "fake news" (whatever that means these days) just because one disagrees with libertarianism: sure the source has that bias, and possibly shapes the story accordingly, but if no one other than libertarians cares, it may not be reported anywhere else at all.

<Goes back to reading her latest issue of The Remnant>

Edited November 16, 2018 by Violet Crown
double negative

[Catwoman]

7 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Bill, you are not the board police. 

Everyone else, don't feed the troll.

Bill, if you want to object to this post, take it up with Susan privately.

 

Thank you, Rosie.

Apparently, though, Bill doesn’t care what you or the other moderators have to say. His lack of respect for forum rules is appalling.

[Katy]

Entertaining thread!  The teacher did the right thing.  The teacher's union did the right thing.

I would definitely complain to the school board if my son were forced to change in a locker room with a girl.  I honestly think the only reason there are still male/female locker rooms is for team sports.

I wasn't forced to shower in middle and high school gym, but my husband was, starting in 6th grade.  He said it was because all boys stink and need multiple showers a day.  Some schools still force boys to shower, but I haven't heard of schools forcing girls to shower.

We often weren't supervised in the locker room, and I heard the WORST things in the locker room.  Intimate details of a certain group of girls having a rainbow party, etc. And after the locker room rapes of boys story that came out a few years back I would think ANY school would require supervision.

I personally like to balance news sources with different political views.  It seems like the only way to get the complete story and how to have a *clue* what someone is talking about if they only get their news from one particular extreme slant.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Katy
clarity

[TCB]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Kids don't get fully naked in a big room anymore. They just don't. There has been a dramatic shift in locker room culture in the US in terms of nudity. When today's parents were in high school, yeah, that was a thing that happened. With everything I've read about this shift and observed in pool locker rooms in the last decade, I'd be FLOORED if middle schoolers stripped beyond underwear in the locker room and they might not even do that. A lot of schools around here don't even have kids change into gym clothes anymore. They just let them be smelly rather than deal with locker room "issues."

I thought the local article was pretty balanced. No one lost their job. The schools have a policy of trying to work with individuals. These are the guidelines, not hard fast rules for every situation.

I'm beyond sick of these threads in the last month. They follow a pattern. Someone posts the "shocking" "how dare trans people demand this or that" thing they found - in this case on an extremely slanted site and then everyone chimes in with their shock and dismay about the existence of trans people needing basic rights.

Another example of inflammatory rhetoric in my opinion. I don't think it makes anyone more likely to listen to your view point, and instead shuts down communication.

[Condessa]

1 hour ago, Violet Crown said:

While the OP would probably like her thread to stop being derailed, I think yours would be a great first post in a separate thread on alternative news sources. Obviously certain stories are going to be of too little interest to the big news providers to be covered, and will be found in sources where the readership will have a more or less common outlook that will be reflected by the editorial outlook and by the framing as well as choice of the stories covered. To use your example, Reason presumably reported that story because it had interest to their libertarian readership ("fit their narrative" we say somewhat condescendingly today); it would be unsurprising if the story was itself framed to a libertarian perspective; yet a reader who found the story interesting wouldn't necessarily be a libertarian in philosophy. It's hard to see how you can have niche news sources with out-of-the-way or less-reported news without that source having a bias of some kind. But it would be crazy to dismiss the story as "fake news" (whatever that means these days) just because one disagrees with libertarianism: sure the source has that bias, and possibly shapes the story accordingly, but if no one other than libertarians cares, it may not be reported anywhere else at all.

<Goes back to reading her latest issue of The Remnant>

 

I’ve heard so many claims of “fake news” fly from people on both sides, I’ve become pretty skeptical of such claims unless there is some example of the source giving incorrect information or leaving out relevant information, and not printing a retraction when informed of their error.  If writing a story with preconceived biases makes a news story “fake”, I don’t think I’ve ever read a “real” news story.  Just because I think a journalist is wrong in how they interpret and present a story doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

I’ve heard so many claims of “fake news” fly from people on both sides, I’ve become pretty skeptical of such claims unless there is some example of the source giving incorrect information or leaving out relevant information, and not printing a retraction when informed of their error.  If writing a story with preconceived biases makes a news story “fake”, I don’t think I’ve ever read a “real” news story.  Just because I think a journalist is wrong in how they interpret and present a story doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Are you unaware The Daily Wire is a right-wing extremist website that is notorious for its dishonest reporting?

Bill

[Condessa]

Just now, Spy Car said:

Are you unaware The Daily Wire is a right-wing extremist website that is notorious for its dishonest reporting?

Bill

 

I am aware it is very right biased.  I am not aware of instances of dishonest reporting.  

[Spy Car]

Just now, Michelle Conde said:

 

I am aware it is very right biased.  I am not aware of instances of dishonest reporting.  

I suggest you check it out. It really doesn't serve as a source for threads here IMO. Especially ones that threaten the rights of those who are among the most vulnerable. 

Bill

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

8 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

I’ve heard so many claims of “fake news” fly from people on both sides, I’ve become pretty skeptical of such claims unless there is some example of the source giving incorrect information or leaving out relevant information, and not printing a retraction when informed of their error.  If writing a story with preconceived biases makes a news story “fake”, I don’t think I’ve ever read a “real” news story.  Just because I think a journalist is wrong in how they interpret and present a story doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Except there are actual "fake" news sites that intentionally report false and misleading information.  They are not mainstream and neither is their target audience. 

There are also others (example: redstate.com) that are so obviously biased that there is no way to gather credible information from them without fact checking every part of a story. Those who support those sites are the ones pushing the narrative about "fake" news in the mainstream media, and blurring that line for consumers is intentional.

[Spy Car]

Just now, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Except there are actual "fake" news sites that intentionally report false and misleading information.  They are not mainstream and neither is their target audience. 

There are also others (example: redstate.com) that are so obviously biased that there is no way to gather credible information from them without fact checking every part of a story. Those who support those sites are the ones pushing the narrative about "fake" news in the mainstream media, and blurring that line for consumers is intentional.

 

Correct. And The Daily Wire is among these websites that intentionally report false and misleading information. 

Bill

[Condessa]

Just now, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Except there are actual "fake" news sites that intentionally report false and misleading information.  They are not mainstream and neither is their target audience. 

There are also others (example: redstate.com) that are so obviously biased that there is no way to gather credible information from them without fact checking every part of a story. Those who support those sites are the ones pushing the narrative about "fake" news in the mainstream media, and blurring that line for consumers is intentional.

 

Oh, certainly, I don’t have a problem with people calling sources “fake news” if they have been shown to knowingly report false information, or leave out relevant information they have been made aware of.  

[Condessa]

14 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I suggest you check it out. It really doesn't serve as a source for threads here IMO. Especially ones that threaten the rights of those who are among the most vulnerable. 

Bill

 

 

I am aware of an instance when the guy who runs it was gone and the person left in charge put some racist satire junk up, but when the editor who was gone heard about it he had it removed and issued an apology.  That’s all I’ve turned up.  Lots of people railing against the Daily Wire, but I can’t seem to find anything where it gives examples of incorrect information.  Do you have any suggestions for what stories to look for?

Edited November 16, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[ChocolateReignRemix]

12 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

I am aware it is very right biased.  I am not aware of instances of dishonest reporting.  

 

They have a long history of sharing stories that are taken out of context or have not been verified. They are not in any way a valid news source. 

An example:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/19851/year-zero-vigilante-protesters-start-dig-remains-john-nolte

Another:

https://archive.is/G4u0d

In both cases they take something that is true and take it out of context to generate reactions from its readers.  In the first they used a 2 year old story and exaggerated what actually happened, and in the second they leave out some important facts (namely that Harvard still had a main graduation and the "black graduation" was a separate event organized by individuals).  What they do goes well beyond a slant or bias in reporting.

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

I am aware of an instance when the guy who runs it was gone and the person left in charge put some racist satire junk up, but when the editor who was gone heard about it he had it removed and issued an apology, but that’s all I’ve turned up.  Lots of people railing against the Daily Wire, but I can’t seem to find anything where it gives examples of incorrect information.  Do you have any suggestions for what stories to look for?

Try Snopes, where they debunked a story that claimed Muhammad is the most popular name in the Netherlands:

DailyWire.com has a tendency to share stories that are taken out of context or not verified. For example, in the days after a violent white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia in August 2017, the site helped spread a false rumor that “leftists” were digging up Confederate graves. In March of that year, the site spread a false claim that Democratic lawmakers refused to stand for a fallen Navy SEAL’s widow. In May 2017, the site falsely reported that Harvard University was holding segregated commencement ceremonies. The site was embroiled in another racial controversy after posting a video disparaging Native Americans in October 2017. After removing the video, Shapiro responded by apologizing, but called the video satire.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-mohammed-popular-name-netherlands/

The nature of The Daily Wire is hardly a secret. I'm sure you can find plenty of corroborating information on the false nature of their "reporting."

Bill

[SanDiegoMom]

4 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

I am aware of an instance when the guy who runs it was gone and the person left in charge put some racist satire junk up, but when the editor who was gone heard about it he had it removed and issued an apology, but that’s all I’ve turned up.  Lots of people railing against the Daily Wire, but I can’t seem to find anything where it gives examples of incorrect information.  Do you have any suggestions for what stories to look for?

If you google "false news daily wire" and click on the Snopes Archive, you can see a list of all the stories where they have either fabricated whole details, or aggregated false details from other unreliable online sources without fact-checking, thereby amplifying a false story for OTHER networks, bloggers, or online for-profit news sources to pick up. 

 

[Condessa]

2 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

If you google "false news daily wire" and click on the Snopes Archive, you can see a list of all the stories where they have either fabricated whole details, or aggregated false details from other unreliable online sources without fact-checking, thereby amplifying a false story for OTHER networks, bloggers, or online for-profit news sources to pick up. 

 

Thanks, SanDiegoMom!  I will definitely look into this, but it will take me a while to do so and respond, as I have somewhere to be this afternoon.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[Condessa]

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Try Snopes, where they debunked a story that claimed Muhammad is the most popular name in the Netherlands:

DailyWire.com has a tendency to share stories that are taken out of context or not verified. For example, in the days after a violent white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia in August 2017, the site helped spread a false rumor that “leftists” were digging up Confederate graves. In March of that year, the site spread a false claim that Democratic lawmakers refused to stand for a fallen Navy SEAL’s widow. In May 2017, the site falsely reported that Harvard University was holding segregated commencement ceremonies. The site was embroiled in another racial controversy after posting a video disparaging Native Americans in October 2017. After removing the video, Shapiro responded by apologizing, but called the video satire.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-mohammed-popular-name-netherlands/

The nature of The Daily Wire is hardly a secret. I'm sure you can find plenty of corroborating information on the false nature of their "reporting."

Bill

 

Thanks, Bill, I will look into it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Thanks, Bill, I will definitely look into it.

You got it.

If you find the time I'd look at the way the local story reported this and compare it to the Daily Wire version, complete with the weasel words like "might" and "could" that give them plausibility deniability when spinning the story to their ideological advantage.

As our society expands rights to include everyone there will be moments when the rights of one group will cause tensions with the rights (or perceived rights) of others. We will need to turn to reason and law and ethics to figure out how to accommodate everyone fairly.

Reason isn't what the Daily Wire is about. That is why I objected. 

Bill

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Spy Car

[Condessa]

34 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

As our society expands rights to include everyone there will be moments when the rights of one group will cause tensions with the rights (or perceived rights) of others. We will need to turn to reason and law and ethics to figure out how to accommodate everyone fairly.

 

This right here is exactly what this thread was about.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

This right here is exactly what this thread was about.

But it was framed by false reporting from a website that seeks to inflame opinions with the deliberate twisting of the truth and this case was no different than their standard operating practice. Again, if you have the time, examine the disparity in their report and the local news version.

The Daily Note seeks to manipulate people via anger by spreading false narratives. That comes at a cost to the rights of our most vulnerable.

I hope you see that.

Bill

 

[unsinkable]

18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Exactly, Michelle. 

Ironically, on this topic, we're not actually allowed to discuss how to accomodate everyone fairly.

Want to discuss fairness for girls and women ? Bigot. Fairness for teachers ? Bigot. Fairness towards boys ? Bigot. 

 

 

 

Yes.

The physical health & safety of all children is what is at stake when the response to monitoring locker rooms is: "Ewww, creepy."

 

[Daria]

20 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Are you suggesting that the student went into the boys’ locker room for some other purpose than to change clothes, and that the teacher objected to supervising just in case a student with no intention of changing in that locker room inexplicably did so?  That the school put this policy in place and tried to enforce compliance from their employees without a transgender student wanting them to?  And that the complaints the school board is fielding are about the student walking into the locker room where the boys were changing and then walking out again?  (Frankly, if I were the parent of one of those boys, this scenario would be rather weirder than a transgender student wanting to use the locker room with all the guys.)

In every school I've been associated with, the locker room is where kids go to change shoes before gym, or to store their backpacks, or to remove the sweater they might be wearing over the Tshirt.   In some of them, the only way to access the gym for a student is to walk through a locker room.   This is middle school, and in middle schools around me there are 5 minutes for passing, so almost no one is changing entirely.  So, yes.  Students go into locker rooms without the intention of changing all the time.  I think that if the trans student in this story had actually gotten naked in the locker room, or actually showered, then the people complaining about it would have mentioned.  So, my guess, is that this middle school functions like other middle schools I have experience with, and it is not uncommon for kids to be in the locker room and not change.  

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

I'm so glad I don't have to teach a room full of sweaty - unwashed, unchanged, even - pre teens. 

Or even worse - the unwashed sweaty smell disguised by perfumed deodorants. Yuck.

 

 

In the announcements for my dd13's school last week, there was a bit reminding students that it was a scent free school, and there was to be no spraying perfume in the changing areas.  I thought that was a little hard going.

 

As it happens, it's the same middle school I went to, and although there are showers, no one uses them.  People do strip down to underwear at time though, even if they prefer to avoid i.

[Condessa]

39 minutes ago, Daria said:

In every school I've been associated with, the locker room is where kids go to change shoes before gym, or to store their backpacks, or to remove the sweater they might be wearing over the Tshirt.   In some of them, the only way to access the gym for a student is to walk through a locker room.   This is middle school, and in middle schools around me there are 5 minutes for passing, so almost no one is changing entirely.  So, yes.  Students go into locker rooms without the intention of changing all the time.  I think that if the trans student in this story had actually gotten naked in the locker room, or actually showered, then the people complaining about it would have mentioned.  So, my guess, is that this middle school functions like other middle schools I have experience with, and it is not uncommon for kids to be in the locker room and not change.  

 

Huh, interesting.  I’ve never heard of a school that used locker rooms but the students didn’t change.

However, it is apparent that was not normal practice at this school, or the boys wouldn’t have been undressed when the transgender student walked in for the first time.

[Spy Car]

33 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Huh, interesting.  I’ve never heard of a school that used locker rooms but the students didn’t change.

However, it is apparent that was not normal practice at this school, or the boys wouldn’t have been undressed when the transgender student walked in for the first time.

 

This only according to the Daily Wire, which has been shown to you to be a source of disinformation.

BTW the Liberty Counsel is on the Southern Poverty Law Centers list of hate organizations.

Bill

Edited November 17, 2018 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

Just now, StellaM said:

SPLC lost some credibility with me when they characterised  Muslim Majiid Nawaz and Quilliam as 'anti Muslim extremists', and then had to pay out 3.4 million for doing so. 

They have an otherwise excellent track record.

Bill

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

I’ve heard so many claims of “fake news” fly from people on both sides, I’ve become pretty skeptical of such claims unless there is some example of the source giving incorrect information or leaving out relevant information, and not printing a retraction when informed of their error.  If writing a story with preconceived biases makes a news story “fake”, I don’t think I’ve ever read a “real” news story.  Just because I think a journalist is wrong in how they interpret and present a story doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

 

The "fake" news I've seen has been posted on facebook.  Most recent example? I have a lot of friends and family in Florida. This week one of them posted an "affadavit" of "a Broward County Election Board employee"  that claimed to witness fake votes being generated. The problem was that no such evidence was presented in any of the courts involved.  No evidence of voter fraud whatsoever.

The most frequent fake news I see on Facebook has been about vaccines.  The most recent example was a story of 34 teenage girls who died after the HPV shot.  I fell for it and clicked through.  One of them died in a car crash, she was the passenger.  Another died two years later of pneumonia.  Sigh.

 

4 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Our ps has open lockers and open showers. There is no place for a trans or cis student to change except out in the open. And they are required to change for PE classes. It all came to a head with a trans m to f student who insisted on making a stink 2 years ago. The girls were in tears, expected to change in front of a 6'2" guy who was not transitioning. The girls ended up walking out, and one left school. It was a mess. 

 

How did they end up resolving it long term? Is it still to be handled on a case by case basis or is the policy a non-transitioning person can go into the opposite gender locker room despite not wanting to transition?  I agree the main problem from my perspective is when a person claims to be transgender but isn't transitioning. That leads to so many potential issues. If a person transitions at a young age and appears to be the gender they are internally I imagine most of the kids would have much less issue with that.

[Katy]

Just now, Dotwithaperiod said:

Someone calls the Daily Wire a garbage site and he is called a troll? Asking politely, can you explain why you call him that?

 

Perhaps the offensive posts have been deleted If you read through the whole thread earlier it was because he ignored the second article posted on the topic that was from a regular local newspaper and kept personally attacking the OP and everyone who didn't express hatred of the daily wire so as to dismiss the thread entirely.  He insisted on ignoring the topic and continuing to attack women, and went on to mansplain feminism to a group of women... it was obnoxious at best and against board rules.

[Rosie_0801]

7 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Someone calls the Daily Wire a garbage site and he is called a troll? Asking politely, can you explain why you call him that?

That is not why I called him a troll.
I'm not going to provide an annotated bibliography, particularly not one that includes the posts that have been deleted.

If you have a problem with the way I have handled this story that you have only read part of, feel free to take it up with Susan privately.  

[Daria]

23 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

Our ps has open lockers and open showers. There is no place for a trans or cis student to change except out in the open. And they are required to change for PE classes. It all came to a head with a trans m to f student who insisted on making a stink 2 years ago. The girls were in tears, expected to change in front of a 6'2" guy who was not transitioning. The girls ended up walking out, and one left school. It was a mess. 

 

I'm confused by what you mean when you say he was "not transitioning".

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Perhaps the offensive posts have been deleted If you read through the whole thread earlier it was because he ignored the second article posted on the topic that was from a regular local newspaper and kept personally attacking the OP and everyone who didn't express hatred of the daily wire so as to dismiss the thread entirely.  He insisted on ignoring the topic and continuing to attack women, and went on to mansplain feminism to a group of women... it was obnoxious at best and against board rules.

The second article showed that the first one, that was in the OP, was very slanted (to the point of being utterly dishonest).

Did you read them?

Bill

[Katy]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Middle school children can't 'appear to be the gender they are internally' in a changing room context.

Thank goodness. Nobody, I am sure, thinks children should be able to access opposite sex hormones or surgery.

 

Of course they can.  Middle school generally starts at age 11 or 12, well past the onset of puberty in most kids.  And many people DO put transgender children that age on hormone blockers at least, if not the hormones of the opposite gender.  There is an entire reality show called I am Jazz about a transgender girl that started filming in middle school.  In the first season she has been on hormone blockers and absolutely appears to be female. Most of her friends forget she wasn't born male.  I haven't continued to watch the show, but I understand she was going to start surgery.

[Condessa]

22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

They have an otherwise excellent track record.

Bill

 

Have they?  

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/28/morris-dees-splc-trump-southern-poverty-law-center-215312

"The SPLC has included Senator Rand Paul and Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson among the neo-Nazis and white supremacists on its extremists lists (Paul for suggesting private businesses shouldn’t have to adhere to the Civil Rights Act and criticizing the Fair Housing Act; Carson for his views opposing same-sex marriage). The group did back down after it put Carson on the 2014 “extremist watch” list—removing his name and issuing an apology that earned a lot of coverage in the conservative media. “This week, as we’ve come under intense criticism for doing so, we’ve reviewed our profile and have concluded that it did not meet our standards,” the organization’s statement said, “so we have taken it down and apologize to Dr. Carson for having posted it.”"

"William Jacobson, a law professor at Cornell and critic of the SPLC, says the group has wrapped itself in the mantle of the civil rights struggle to engage in partisan political crusading. “Time and again, I see the SPLC using the reputation it gained decades ago fighting the Klan as a tool to bludgeon mainstream politically conservative opponents,” he says. “For groups that do not threaten violence, the use of SPLC ‘hate group’ or ‘extremist’ designations frequently are exploited as an excuse to silence speech and speakers,” Jacobson adds. “It taints not only the group or person, but others who associate with them.”

[Katy]

Just now, StellaM said:

 

I wouldn't use Jazz as evidence of anything; imo she's been incredibly abused by having her experience made so very public, and by the decisions her parents have taken on her behalf. I feel really sorry for Jazz.

Middle school goes up to 7th grade, right ? Most 7th grade girls look pretty female, and are losing the androgyny of their childhood. Many have already developed. A 7th grade male is going to look like a 7th grade male, when changing, and not like the average 7th grade girl.

 

No, middle school is generally either grades 6-8 or grades 7-9, depending on the school district and if they break down elementary schools into primary and intermediate grades or grades pk-5.

[Condessa]

16 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The second article showed that the first one, that was in the OP, was very slanted (to the point of being utterly dishonest).

Did you read them?

Bill

 

Neither one had any facts that contradicted the other, at least not that I noticed.

The commentary in the two articles was obviously slanted very differently.

[Spy Car]

29 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

 

Neither one had any facts that contradicted the other, at least not that I noticed.

The commentary in the two articles was obviously slanted very differently.

One was slanted by a notoriously dishonest source. 

The Daily Wire is an extremist website with a documented history of lying.

We gave you sources that flesh this out.

I thought you were taking it to heart,

Bill

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, increasingly a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and attempts at a meaningful transition to living as the opposite sex is not required to be transgender and to receive protections under the law designed to protect transsexual people. 

So first it was "librodudes in lavender" and not it is "gender dysphoria."

Members would be well advised to read up on TERFs aka trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism. Very uncool.

Bill

 

[Condessa]

37 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

One was slanted by a notoriously dishonest source. 

The Daily Wire is an extremist website with a documented history of lying.

We gave you sources that flesh this out.

I thought you were taking it to heart,

Bill

 

I'm still working my way through the Snopes articles and the sources.  I haven't forgotten, just want to be thorough.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Michelle Conde

[Rosie_0801]

20 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I asked politely, Rosie. I read the thread, unless you’re saying I wasn’t able to see deleted stuff.Really, you seem offended, but I just wanted to know why you called him a troll. I have no need to take it up with Susan, as I was not  at all upset with you.  

 

 

 

I know you asked politely, but it is against board rules to use the board to discuss the board, so any problems people have with moderation should be dealt with in pm. This is the case no matter what levels of politeness are being used.

In any case, your questions have already been answered by myself and others.

-----
Everyone: My daughter is here on her fortnightly visit. I can't sit around all day moderating people who've already been told to behave, so if I see anything else that shouldn't be there, I'm going to lock the thread until another moderator has time to deal with it.

[Spy Car]

25 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Thank you, Stella. That’s what I was trying to figure out. Surprised me when the mod was so abrupt with my question, they normally don’t seem personally offended.

Sadies's response consists of flat out lies. Not surprising from someone who calls trans folks "librodudes in lavender."

Appalling.

Bill

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Spy Car

[Rosie_0801]

Locked.