Adjusting to new social norms when moving (subtitle: is everyone in New England really this rude?) UPDATE AT PAGE 7 or SO

[Barb_]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

LOL! Good thing we gave up the idea of moving there!!! My best friend is from Boston and she warned me, lol. We are very much the Odd Couple, lol. 

I will say though, I don't think of it as holding up the line, the cashiers here all seem capable of talking/listening and ringing up the product at the same time. They don't stop what they are doing to chat, they chat while doing it. 

 

Southern women are capable of carrying on a conversation while doing literally anything else. Get six in a room together and you’re likely to have 3-4 overlapping conversations with everyone participating 

[HS Mom in NC]

What's rude and polite vary from region to region. 

Here in NC where I just moved to chit chat is considered polite, but back in the SW where I'm from someone engaging in too much chit chat in a customer setting is a time thief who is rudely wasting the most precious non-renewable resource anyone has.  I have heard many a sermon in AZ on being a good employee, and not being a time thief is usually given the most time. Chit chat is for after hours and break time, business talk and business work are for business hours. When I visited here about 6 years ago there was a loooong line of cars waiting to pay one at a time at an entrance to a tourist attraction.  I was shocked that the person working there was chatting with each one as they paid. It was a half mile long back up and there was a ferry to catch!  I was surprised when, in the middle of checking into a condo for the week, the employee engaged my then 4 year old in a long chatty discussion without checking me in first. There was a customer waiting behind me and the employee was stiiiiiillll talking. They'd be fired in PHX.  Out west time is precious and business comes first-a sentence or two of niceties here and there are fine, but you've got to get down to business in a business setting.

My husband and I refuse to answer the phone when the State Farm agent here calls. She's from far enough north in FL to be culturally southern.  That woman can say less with more words than any human I have ever met.  It was excruciating being in her office getting our policy switched over from AZ to NC.  It was mind-blowing how long it took because she just. kept. talking. Why use 4 sentences when you can use 40? She can't read the room either.  When people answer your questions with short, direct answers, don't @$*&^@*&^# get chattier thinking you're going to make them chatty.  You're going to grate on their nerves. 

In the SW gushers are usually considered fake. It's not fair assuming that, but the super bubbly, terms of affection, huggy stuff isn't usually well received. We have a high influx of people from all over the US and the Americas. Neutral is considered polite by most people.  Rude is nasty tone or insulting words.  My SIL from Texas and her family had a hard time adjusting to PHX because TX is more southern in culture than southwestern.  My cousin from NM moved here to NC 15 years ago and married a man from here.  We were chatting about how different the culture is.  We laughed at how much our initial interactions confused the people from here.  I've had to stop making eye contact and smiling at people I walk past because they think I want to engage them in conversation.  No, actually, I engaged in eye contact and smiled as I walked past to avoid conversation, but to still be nice to you and acknowledge your presence.  Her husband thought that was very strange about the SW.  He had no concept of that behavior before visiting Albuquerque. He was in the suburbs and didn't know that waving at everyone who went by was considered odd and out of place, where as here, it's common.

When I went to Maine to visit my cousin last summer and loved it.  I was in Portland, Bar Harbor, and a small town between Bangor and Augusta.  I had no problem with people being direct and matter of fact.  I prefer it.  It's honest and sincere.  It respects my time.  I didn't have to read between the lines and people took me at my word; they didn't assume I mean something other than what I actually said.  No fuss, no frills.  These are my father's people and I enjoyed them very much.

I'm just outside Raleigh, which has a high influx of people from the eastern half of the US, so the chit chat, slow moving culture stuff usually comes from people born and raised in The South.  Our realtor from Mississippi could read the room. She was pleasure to work with.  When two people show up to look at houses with 2 detailed spread sheets of data (one color coded, one not) make few niceties, and get down to business, she knew to get down to business. We chatted more personally with her when we treated her to lunch, but during the house hunting we talked almost exclusively about house related topics. Her time is valuable, we wouldn't want to waste it.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Perhaps it's because I live in a small city, but I know all the regular cashiers that have been here for more than a month.  I don't see them as being fake.  I see them as truly being curious about a new product that just came on the market or a fruit that they've never tried before.  Because I've never seen or heard them asking everyone the same questions or doing something that would make me feel like I could not take them at their word.  The same way that I take posters here who post questions at their word (unless there was something that raised red flags of a troll). 

Exactly. It doesn’t happen to me every time I shop, but sometimes a clerk will ask about one of my items because it seems they truly want to know, and maybe try it for themselves later.

[moonflower]

That's strange, I never thought of the exchange of social pleasantries as wasting time, exactly.  In the midwest, at least, and certainly in Colorado, you wouldn't take any more time talking than it took the cashier to ring up your purchase - but you also would (usually) not be completely silent while the cashier was ringing your purchase, esp. if you frequented that store often or were completely new there.  Staying and talking beyond your "turn" would be out of place.  Similarly, when you go to say the bank drive though, you hit the button and the person appears on the little screen and says, "Hi, how can I help you?" and you say, "Hi, can you send me a deposit slip for checking and a pen?" and as she is putting the deposit slip and the pen in the little case thing and whooshing it over to you, she says, "Here you go, let me know if you need anything else," and as you are taking it out of the case you say, "Thanks, I will."  Then after you send it back, as she is whooshing your license or debit card back to you, she says, "Hi, I've processed the deposit.  Have a great day," and you say as you are taking out your debit card, "Thanks, Good Day."  and that concludes the transaction.

[moonflower]

But if it is a small-town grocery store or gas station, either you are new there (and so they may say something like, "are you new to the area?  What brings you to x small town?  You'll love the snow, it's great here!" or whatever) or you are a regular, and they ask how your kids are and whether they really eat that many apples a week (yes, they do!) and did you hear about the new bible college they're putting in, that is going to be a ton of traffic next year! and this is what my tattoo stands for (after you ask, of course, because it's pretty prominent and you do wonder) and if they owned the grocery chain they would not allow hooligans in here at night and how long until you're due and are you nervous and are you delivering down in the city and can they see your new baby and what is her name, oh she is so beautiful and how was the birth? and etc.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Not sure where you mean by upstate, but Im in the upper-est part and it’s friendlier than the 3 cities I lived in in Texas. They want to chat and visit everywhere. Gas stations, grocery aisles, doctor offices. I find it annoying at times. Really, it’s like a Yankee version of Mayberry, with the ever-idiotic Confederate flag wavers thrown in.

Ithaca, NY. I’ve never lived in the south, so can’t compare. And this was almost 30 years ago, so maybe things have changed.

[Frances]

I’m curious if those in more reserved or hurried parts of the country have people approach to chat when they are walking their dogs. We’ve only owned a dog here in the PNW, and it’s  very common for strangers to smile and comment on our dog or even stop and chat when we are out and about. Just a few weeks ago a couple started chatting with me about our dog while I was waiting for my husband and son outside of an ice cream parlor. We ended up talking for over an hour. Turns out she was a native, ans they had just moved back from NYC.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 minutes ago, moonflower said:

That's strange, I never thought of the exchange of social pleasantries as wasting time, exactly.  In the midwest, at least, and certainly in Colorado, you wouldn't take any more time talking than it took the cashier to ring up your purchase - but you also would (usually) not be completely silent while the cashier was ringing your purchase, esp. if you frequented that store often or were completely new there.  Staying and talking beyond your "turn" would be out of place.  Similarly, when you go to say the bank drive though, you hit the button and the person appears on the little screen and says, "Hi, how can I help you?" and you say, "Hi, can you send me a deposit slip for checking and a pen?" and as she is putting the deposit slip and the pen in the little case thing and whooshing it over to you, she says, "Here you go, let me know if you need anything else," and as you are taking it out of the case you say, "Thanks, I will."  Then after you send it back, as she is whooshing your license or debit card back to you, she says, "Hi, I've processed the deposit.  Have a great day," and you say as you are taking out your debit card, "Thanks, Good Day."  and that concludes the transaction.

That's all business talk and not time wasting chit chat.  It's when they're talking instead of doing their work or talking after the transaction is completed that's the problem. I see that here often. That long line of cars waiting to pay and get to the ferry should have only included cost, changing money, and which way to go to the parking lot. Nothing else because even a minute or two adds up with that long of a back up.  Chatting with my 4 year old for a long time about the beach instead of checking me and the next customer in was wasting time. She had no idea if I had to be somewhere at a certain time or needed to do something else urgently.  The insurance agent yammering on endlessly instead of asking us the next insurance related question is wasting our time.  We should've been able to bill her my husband's consulting fee for all the time she wasted talking instead of asking insurance questions and typing into her computer.

[HS Mom in NC]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m curious if those in more reserved or hurried parts of the country have people approach to chat when they are walking their dogs. We’ve only owned a dog here in the PNW, and it’s  very common for strangers to smile and comment on our dog or even stop and chat when we are out and about. Just a few weeks ago a couple started chatting with me about our dog while I was waiting for my husband and son outside of an ice cream parlor. We ended up talking for over an hour. Turns out she was a native, ans they had just moved back from NYC.

For some reason, if you hike or hunt in AZ you're practically obligated to stop and chat with other hunters and hikers.  I have no idea why, but you have to talk hiking or hunting with them.

[SereneHome]

Well, we moved to New England 10 yrs ago and I can tell with 99% certainty if the driver next /in front /behind me is from MA.  We took kids to a science museum in VT a few months ago, and I never want to go back to that area.  But where I am - I haven't had a problem, for the most part.  I actually appreciate no idle chit chats when I call a business.  And I appreciate that there are much less faky friendliness than in MD.

 

[Kim in Appalachia]

13 hours ago, Barb_ said:

We’ve lived all over too and some places are definitely harder to fit in than others. For example, Eastern KY was nice but insular and getting a question answered took for-ev-er. A year later, I’d adjusted to the pace but never got used to burying the liberal, goofy, urban parts of myself. It was hard. Now we split our time between the Midwest and the Phoenix metro area and I prefer the Midwest. I hate to say it, but you may want to consider state shopping because feeling like a square peg month after month and year after year is so draining.

 

I'd love to know where you lived in KY.  We were in TN but not far from Corbin.  And there were a few years my dh worked in Phelps (outside Pikeville).

It was hard to live there and not be from there.   

[ktgrok]

The entire idea that pleasant conversation and sharing goodwill is a waste of time has totally blown my mind! I'm from South Florida, which isn't REALLY southern, but I guess I picked up enough southern to never have considered that kind of conversation a waste of time. I mean, I'm reading it now, and I guess I get it, but man...yeah, a Southerner would wonder what on earth was so dad gum important that you don't ahve time for your fellow humans?

Seriously, mind blown. (and I'm not trying to say our way is better...I'm reading and getting what you are saying, it's just a total eye opener for me)

[nixpix5]

16 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The entire idea that pleasant conversation and sharing goodwill is a waste of time has totally blown my mind! I'm from South Florida, which isn't REALLY southern, but I guess I picked up enough southern to never have considered that kind of conversation a waste of time. I mean, I'm reading it now, and I guess I get it, but man...yeah, a Southerner would wonder what on earth was so dad gum important that you don't ahve time for your fellow humans?

Seriously, mind blown. (and I'm not trying to say our way is better...I'm reading and getting what you are saying, it's just a total eye opener for me)

Glad it's not just me feeling that way. This post has cemented for me that I should never leave the west coast. When I went from Oregon to Washington I thought Washingtonians were rude haha. I like a high level of friendly chitchat. I would be depressed as heck in New England.

[moonflower]

I think I will be less depressed now that I know not to wave or make small talk or smile much.  I think part of what was getting me down was negative social interactions -waving and getting the blank stare, or saying something inane but polite and being decidedly ignored, or smiling and being looked at like I had 3 heads.  No social interactions has got to be better than repeated negative ones.  I'll let you know in a year if I survived it, hah.  

 

I am, interestingly, very introverted.  I don't like people living with me (except DH and the kids), and I don't like talking about my actual problems or beliefs or worries to anyone.  Somehow, social niceties don't impinge on my introversion at all.  Neither does reading on a bus, or in a crowded cafeteria, though.  In fact, I think that because I'm pretty introverted, a fair amount of my regular positive social interaction has always come from these sort of casual everyday pleasantries - I don't really spend much quality time with anyone except DH.

[Frances]

34 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

Ithaca is, well, Ithaca.  I almost never go there even though it’s less than a thirty minute drive and there’s a lot to do.  The traffic patterns and lack of parking set me on edge and make me annoyed at the world, so I tend to just avoid the whole place.

Its also one of the cloudiest areas in the country and there’s a huge cultural divide between the natives and the college affiliated people, which tends to lead to resentment.  

I personally wouldn’t live there. On the other hand, my sister loves Ithaca and would happily spend her whole life there.  

 

Ah yes, the gloomy cloud cover and the almost constant precipitation of some sort or another during the winter, we called it Ithacating. And we did think there were definitely town gown issues when were there and lots of resentment of the many wealthy undergrads. 

[Frances]

18 minutes ago, moonflower said:

I think I will be less depressed now that I know not to wave or make small talk or smile much.  I think part of what was getting me down was negative social interactions -waving and getting the blank stare, or saying something inane but polite and being decidedly ignored, or smiling and being looked at like I had 3 heads.  No social interactions has got to be better than repeated negative ones.  I'll let you know in a year if I survived it, hah.  

 

I am, interestingly, very introverted.  I don't like people living with me (except DH and the kids), and I don't like talking about my actual problems or beliefs or worries to anyone.  Somehow, social niceties don't impinge on my introversion at all.  Neither does reading on a bus, or in a crowded cafeteria, though.  In fact, I think that because I'm pretty introverted, a fair amount of my regular positive social interaction has always come from these sort of casual everyday pleasantries - I don't really spend much quality time with anyone except DH.

I completely relate because I’m also quite introverted, but still appreciate at least a smile and friendly greeting.

[poppy]

32 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The entire idea that pleasant conversation and sharing goodwill is a waste of time has totally blown my mind! I'm from South Florida, which isn't REALLY southern, but I guess I picked up enough southern to never have considered that kind of conversation a waste of time. I mean, I'm reading it now, and I guess I get it, but man...yeah, a Southerner would wonder what on earth was so dad gum important that you don't ahve time for your fellow humans?

Seriously, mind blown. (and I'm not trying to say our way is better...I'm reading and getting what you are saying, it's just a total eye opener for me)

 

You know what this makes me think of?  Picture an office workplace, lots of women in their 20s, entry level work, relatively low paying.  One coworker was super demonstrably friendly, the kind of person who stocks the candy bowl in her desk.  Anoother was more introverted but perfectly pleasant.   They have lunch together most days , with a few other similar women, all talking about the same half dozen topics of daily chit chat. One day the introverted person says "you know what I'm just going to read my book today during my lunch break, I'm almost at the end and can't wait to see what happens next -- you guys go ahead".   And the friendly one says "are you  saying your book is more important than people, you can't think that really!" So, book was put away, and they had the same tedious lunch as always, forever more.

To me the chit chat is like that.  You don't get to "live" in your own head, you must perform when out & about. It's not the worst thing in the world, but, it's not necessarily better. Especially when there is a power imbalance like talking to a store clerk.    Some jobs people really do expect to "perform" emotionally-- Hooters clerk, car salesman.  But the guy ringing up my grocies, eh. Emotional labor doesn't really have to be a part of that job.

[moonflower]

I've been campaigning to move to the NE for years - finally this spring DH said, why not Maine?  Yay! I said.  Finally! I said.

Ironically, he likes the directness and lack of (what I perceive as) friendliness.  He's never been one for social niceties.  I said to him about a week ago, wanna know a secret? 

What? he said.

I don't like Maine, I said.

Who knew?

I do really like the food, and the nature (the water especially), and the weather (so far!), and the ocean.  I like that there's a small natural foods store in every small town.  In Missouri you could be in a city/suburb of 50,000 people and have no natural foods store; here there's one in every town with 5k people.  They also seem to be (strangely, considering their social interactions) fairly community oriented, at least in the summer - lots of festivals and bean suppers and book sales.  Great old houses (I LOVE old houses) and architecture and I like that old ladies here, even most middle aged ladies, don't dye their gray hair.  People walk around outside a lot.  Thrift stores abound.

[poppy]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I’m curious if those in more reserved or hurried parts of the country have people approach to chat when they are walking their dogs. We’ve only owned a dog here in the PNW, and it’s  very common for strangers to smile and comment on our dog or even stop and chat when we are out and about. Just a few weeks ago a couple started chatting with me about our dog while I was waiting for my husband and son outside of an ice cream parlor. We ended up talking for over an hour. Turns out she was a native, ans they had just moved back from NYC.

 

I live near Boston and people ask about my dog all the time.  Not long conversations usually but . Yeah.   Especially men who are alone.  I think it is a safe emotional thing to love doggies. 

[gardenmom5]

8 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

My dh is in sales, and he says this about the South too. And that the cultural tendency to avoid hurting anyone's feelings makes his job difficult. If you're not going to buy, just say so and stop wasting my time! 

My friend's son ended up at a manhattan law firm.  they had clients from the south, who'd been offended by the stereotypical nyc abrasive manner.  so - they sent him to patch things up.   he wasn't from nyc, and was easily the nicest guy in the firm.  they figured he had the best shot of repairing the relationship.  which he did.

 

[moonflower]

When I worked briefly in a customer facing job (front desk at a dog grooming place) the (largely little old ladies) chit chatted to me and I didn't find it emotionally impositional or taking advantage of my inferior/captive position.  It was expected behavior on both sides so it didn't feel weird.

I can see how it would be annoying, though, if you were in a customer-facing job in the Midwest and didn't want to talk to people or smile at them or whatever.  You'd spend all day grinding your teeth.

[moonflower]

When I visited NYC in my teens I didn't mind the brusqueness- it seemed to make sense in a city where I was a tourist, where more people were anonymous, and where there was always a line.

It makes less sense to me in the middle of nowhere, New England, where there is no line and I'm going to see the same people over and over.  Maybe it is a relic of overpopulation in an area?  Like Calhoun's mice.

[poppy]

10 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Yeah, it's not usually sweet. It definitely has an element of sarcasm to it. But it usually means something like, "I'm sorry for you that you're so dumb/pitiful and just can't help it." It's a sorry/not sorry. 

For example, I use it a lot with my kids when they are complaining. "Moooom, I don't want to clean my room! I have so many chores! It's not fair!" "Aw, well bless your heart. You're so overworked. Go clean your room."

But it doesn't ever mean "go to he--."

 

I think "go to he--" was my way of saying this.  Nice words to smack a person down, or call her dumb.   I have Texas colleagues. They often gush and say positive things, whether they are being nice or have their fangs out.  It's not a wrong way to be. It's pretty funny, to be honest. But it's definitely a different culture than I'm used to.   Kind of like when I work with Japan.  You have to learn to read around what is said in order  to understand what is meant.

[gstharr]

15 hours ago, moonflower said:

Everywhere I drive, especially in a small town or city, they tail me.  Or what would be considered tailing anywhere else I've lived - 10 feet off my bumper.  I drive the speed limit or I speed.  

Drivers are extremely rude.  You will learn never to look any driver in the eyes.  If you do, you lose whatever rightaway you had, especially at the rotaries.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I’m curious if those in more reserved or hurried parts of the country have people approach to chat when they are walking their dogs.

 

At least once a week, some man - always a man, for some reason - thinks it's funny to yell "Ay, chihuahua!" at us. It's not so amusing to me. It's just tiresome. (So says the woman who croons "You are so poodleful!" every time her other dog comes back from the groomers....)

Even more often I get "Oh, is that a chihuahua? And a toy poodle?" and I say yes and I smile, but inwardly I'm always tempted to say "No, they're pit bulls" just to see the look on their faces. (But I smile in actual pleasure when they tell me my doggies are cute! Because they are! They are the cutest and most wonderful doggies!)

[moonflower]

I feel the same way when out with a baby.

"Ooh, is that a baby?"

No, it's a watermelon.  Of course it's a baby.

But what they mean is, "Oh, what a lovely and perfect and wonderful and adorable bundle of happiness and light you have there, let me absorb some of the happiness she exudes by standing here and crooning at her" and I can't blame them for that ?  

[Tsuga]

4 hours ago, Garga said:

I worked customer service in a call center for a nationwide health insurance company.  I could go from talking to someone from South Carolina to talking to someone from New York city from one call to the next.  Tricky.  The southerners would start off with small talk, “So, how’s your weather where you are?  Hot enough for ya?  Got some snow?”  And the New Yorkers immediately got down to business, “My account number is X and I need to know Y.  Now.”  I learned to speak slower to someone from the south or they’d say, “Sweetie, you need to slow down so I can write down what your’e saying,” and faster for someone from the north, “Uh huh, uh huh, got it.”  

That is super interesting. Did you find yourself super annoyed by people from the Northwest asking "why" and "how" type questions? Because I feel these are often ill received on the phone whereas in my neighborhood people are ready to answer questions. 

[Tsuga]

Also I want to add that it is unfair to say that people are "private" with small talk, but when it comes to expressing something negative suddenly people are entitled to express their deep-seated anger.

To me, that's inconsistent and not cool. If you want to be private be private. Don't use privacy to excuse social iniquity and then explain that you have no problem flipping people off or honking. That doesn't make sense.

[Pawz4me]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m curious if those in more reserved or hurried parts of the country have people approach to chat when they are walking their dogs. We’ve only owned a dog here in the PNW, and it’s  very common for strangers to smile and comment on our dog or even stop and chat when we are out and about. Just a few weeks ago a couple started chatting with me about our dog while I was waiting for my husband and son outside of an ice cream parlor. We ended up talking for over an hour. Turns out she was a native, ans they had just moved back from NYC.

In our twelve years of RV'ing we've always traveled with one or two dogs and we've never encountered anywhere except Maine where a good many people didn't stop and chat when we had the dog(s) with us. Dogs are great ice breakers for conversation. And I think that works both ways. Even though DH and I are relatively introverted we have no problem at all talking dog.

 

7 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

The entire idea that pleasant conversation and sharing goodwill is a waste of time has totally blown my mind! I'm from South Florida, which isn't REALLY southern, but I guess I picked up enough southern to never have considered that kind of conversation a waste of time. I mean, I'm reading it now, and I guess I get it, but man...yeah, a Southerner would wonder what on earth was so dad gum important that you don't ahve time for your fellow humans?

Seriously, mind blown. (and I'm not trying to say our way is better...I'm reading and getting what you are saying, it's just a total eye opener for me)

 

6 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

Glad it's not just me feeling that way. This post has cemented for me that I should never leave the west coast. When I went from Oregon to Washington I thought Washingtonians were rude haha. I like a high level of friendly chitchat. I would be depressed as heck in New England.

My mind isn't blown. I've always known the attitude exists. But it makes me sad, especially in light of the ever increasing evidence that social isolation is very bad for us. I'm also saddened because as more and more people move here (NC) I can see our friendly southern culture slowly changing. Some of it for the good, but the erosion of being friendly and mannerly--definitely not a good thing.

[elegantlion]

7 hours ago, moonflower said:

When I worked briefly in a customer facing job (front desk at a dog grooming place) the (largely little old ladies) chit chatted to me and I didn't find it emotionally impositional or taking advantage of my inferior/captive position.  It was expected behavior on both sides so it didn't feel weird.

I can see how it would be annoying, though, if you were in a customer-facing job in the Midwest and didn't want to talk to people or smile at them or whatever.  You'd spend all day grinding your teeth.

 

I work at a museum at the front desk on the weekends. We get people from all over the region and country. I am a borderline hermit introvert, but worked customer service long enough to chit-chat and read the customers on whether they want to chit-chat or just get checked in. Because of the nature of the business, I have no expectation of how/if they will converse. I think this is part of my perception as a Missourian - I expect good customer service, doesn't have to be chatty - I provide good customer service - being flexible enough to see whatever each customer needs - not everyone needs to engage beyond the good morning stuff. For me, it's part of that work hard, be good at the job you do, and don't rock the boat about it - this is the kind of mentality my dad taught me. I wonder if that's part of the midwest mentality too. 

At work, however, I am exhausted at the end of the day, my patience wears out about an hour before I get off (which is when routine kicks in). 

Conversely, I interned in collections for the past year. I love it back there. I work side-by-side with a very quiet supervisor and we work, sometimes we chat, sometimes we have long conversations, but the solitude energizes me. Part of it is the nature of the work is more fulfilling, but I feel very different at the end of my intern days. 

As someone said above, I feel like I'm on all day if I have to chit-chat with everyone I encounter. Some days it's just enough interaction for my introverted self, other days I avoid places where I know it's going to happen. 

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

14 hours ago, regentrude said:

I think that is the case in the regions they are talking about as well, however, we all know how slooooowly a line of cars starts moving from a stop - so I can see that one can quickly execute the left turn before that first car going straight has really started. 

 

Yes, this. And at most busy lights, it's EXPECTED, so it is not dangerous. In my area, if the 1st person doesn't turn left immediately, there's a very good chance that NOBODY will get to turn left in that light cycle, or in several subsequent cycles, so if he doesn't turn, the line will definitely start honking. This does NOT apply to 4-way stops, but only lights (though the 4-way stops have their own twist here, too, at least in my area, but it IS legal and DOES make sense). 

7 hours ago, moonflower said:

I've been campaigning to move to the NE for years - finally this spring DH said, why not Maine?  Yay! I said.  Finally! I said.

Ironically, he likes the directness and lack of (what I perceive as) friendliness.  He's never been one for social niceties.  I said to him about a week ago, wanna know a secret? 

What? he said.

I don't like Maine, I said.

Who knew?

I do really like the food, and the nature (the water especially), and the weather (so far!), and the ocean.  I like that there's a small natural foods store in every small town.  In Missouri you could be in a city/suburb of 50,000 people and have no natural foods store; here there's one in every town with 5k people.  They also seem to be (strangely, considering their social interactions) fairly community oriented, at least in the summer - lots of festivals and bean suppers and book sales.  Great old houses (I LOVE old houses) and architecture and I like that old ladies here, even most middle aged ladies, don't dye their gray hair.  People walk around outside a lot.  Thrift stores abound.

 

That's the thing that I'm having a hard time expressing - the New Englanders in the small towns are almost always VERY community-minded. The lack of small talk is NOT actually a lack of caring or snobbery, though I do fully understand why it seems that way to people who are not used to it. The brief in-and-out, quick-and-direct *IS* a New Englander's way of being polite & respectful, being considerate of the other person's time. They are NOT rude in their intentions, and are often extremely generous, loyal, willing to do the gritty work, and helpful to neighbors. (Of course, this whole conversation is a stereotype, and we certainly have our share of cads and jerks, too, but - my point is that what SEEMS rude to an outsider is often not at all intended to be rude. The reverse is obviously true, as well - that slow, casual style is often INTENDED as generous friendliness but is often taken by a New Englander (for example) as rude time-wasting and dilly-dallying, or possibly an attempt to sell me something or scam me.)

There's an interesting corollary in fast-food joints: When travelers began moving west in American history, the social niceties and cultural preferences often gave way to the harshness of the land and conditions. Whereas people "back East" would strongly prefer a trusted, mom-and-pop type food place (local diner, coffeehouse, etc.), the midwest began to see chain stores offering "trustworthy" menus and food standards (Harvey Girls, McDonald's, etc) as opposed to fly-by-night mom-and-pop places that served bad food and charged high prices. Even now, there are many more fast food chains across the south and midwest than there are in New England. 

7 hours ago, gstharr said:

Drivers are extremely rude.  You will learn never to look any driver in the eyes.  If you do, you lose whatever rightaway you had, especially at the rotaries.

 

Yes. Eye contact is a signal that you are yielding the right of way. 

12 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yup. Tonight I made an Aldi run and as I was returning my cart there was a woman obviously searching her purse for a quarter and having no luck. So I gave her my cart, no quarter needed, and told her how it happens to me sometimes, etc etc. And we all smiled and felt happy. 

 

This happens in my New England Aldi, too, but probably without conversation. ? 

[wintermom]

7 hours ago, moonflower said:

I've been campaigning to move to the NE for years - finally this spring DH said, why not Maine?  Yay! I said.  Finally! I said.

Ironically, he likes the directness and lack of (what I perceive as) friendliness.  He's never been one for social niceties.  I said to him about a week ago, wanna know a secret? 

What? he said.

I don't like Maine, I said.

Who knew?

I do really like the food, and the nature (the water especially), and the weather (so far!), and the ocean.  I like that there's a small natural foods store in every small town.  In Missouri you could be in a city/suburb of 50,000 people and have no natural foods store; here there's one in every town with 5k people.  They also seem to be (strangely, considering their social interactions) fairly community oriented, at least in the summer - lots of festivals and bean suppers and book sales.  Great old houses (I LOVE old houses) and architecture and I like that old ladies here, even most middle aged ladies, don't dye their gray hair.  People walk around outside a lot.  Thrift stores abound.

Wait until you've spent an entire winter somewhat isolated in your own home. You'll understand the summer festivities and community then. It's too cold for 4 - 6 months of the year to stand around chatting. Gotta keep moving to stay warm, but when it does finally become warm it's time to get out and finally enjoy the weather. 

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

At least once a week, some man - always a man, for some reason - thinks it's funny to yell "Ay, chihuahua!" at us. It's not so amusing to me. It's just tiresome. (So says the woman who croons "You are so poodleful!" every time her other dog comes back from the groomers....)

Even more often I get "Oh, is that a chihuahua? And a toy poodle?" and I say yes and I smile, but inwardly I'm always tempted to say "No, they're pit bulls" just to see the look on their faces. (But I smile in actual pleasure when they tell me my doggies are cute! Because they are! They are the cutest and most wonderful doggies!)

At least they get the breeds right! Everyone tells me my border collie is a husky, some to the point of arguing with me about it, lol. And they thought my weimaraners were greyhounds. Because they were grey ?

[ScoutTN]

Yes, the rudeness is real. That is part of why I have chosen to live elsewhere. 

As pp have said, your specific location can ameliorate some of it.   My advice: Appreciate the nice things, and don't stay too long.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

 But it makes me sad, especially in light of the ever increasing evidence that social isolation is very bad for us.

That's part of the confusion I guess.  In some places obligatory, surface chit chat with strangers in shopping situations isn't really considered socializing. It's seen more as faux socializing where real socializing is intentionally spending set aside time with others and having deeper interactions.

[SereneHome]

12 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

I have a specific place I go for pedicures simply because they don’t talk to the customers beyond the transaction(I suspect a language barrier).   The prices are a good 25% more than any place else, but I’m happy to pay it just for the quiet.

 

I stopped going to a certain woman to get my facials bc she would NOT.SHUT.UP!!!   During my last time she spent the entire hour telling me about a horrible car accident she got into.  I left more exhausted instead of more relaxed.

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, moonflower said:

I've been campaigning to move to the NE for years - finally this spring DH said, why not Maine?  Yay! I said.  Finally! I said.

Ironically, he likes the directness and lack of (what I perceive as) friendliness.  He's never been one for social niceties.  I said to him about a week ago, wanna know a secret? 

What? he said.

I don't like Maine, I said.

Who knew?

I do really like the food, and the nature (the water especially), and the weather (so far!), and the ocean.  I like that there's a small natural foods store in every small town.  In Missouri you could be in a city/suburb of 50,000 people and have no natural foods store; here there's one in every town with 5k people.  They also seem to be (strangely, considering their social interactions) fairly community oriented, at least in the summer - lots of festivals and bean suppers and book sales.  Great old houses (I LOVE old houses) and architecture and I like that old ladies here, even most middle aged ladies, don't dye their gray hair.  People walk around outside a lot.  Thrift stores abound.

I LOVE that you specifically mentioned natural food stores, old houses, thrift stores, and middle-aged ladies that don’t dye their gray hair. I think you just encapsulated Maine in one post ? 

[HS Mom in NC]

Most traits and behaviors can be viewed through a positive or negative lens.

assertive/aggressive or overbearing
gentle/weak
strong/harsh
indirect or subtle/disingenuous or manipulative
effusive/insincere
blunt or direct /mean or rude
introverted/anti-social
extroverted/emotionally needy
fastidious/compulsive or tedious
chatty/oversharing or time wasting or insincere
efficient/callous or insensitive
innovative/disrespectful of tradition and customs

Everyone has a hierarchy of values and people prioritize those values differently. Some places are more compartmentalized than others; how the values are ranked changes depending on the situation or location like a planned social gathering vs. a chance meeting of strangers at a place of business.

[wintermom]

14 minutes ago, Mainer said:

I LOVE that you specifically mentioned natural food stores, old houses, thrift stores, and middle-aged ladies that don’t dye their gray hair. I think you just encapsulated Maine in one post ? 

I would have said seafood in unexpected places, like lobster or crab wraps at the fast food restaurant. ?  Colourful, clapboard siding on the houses is also something I remember, especially coming from a location where most houses have brick frontage.

[Kanin]

12 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I

Haha, yep, like lobster rolls at McDonald’s ?

[poppy]

39 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

That's part of the confusion I guess.  In some places obligatory, surface chit chat with strangers in shopping situations isn't really considered socializing. It's seen more as faux socializing where real socializing is intentionally spending set aside time with others and having deeper interactions.

 

I know there are people who find  surface chit-chat emotionally  nourishing. My husband is one of those people.  But, I'm sure not one of them.  It's just noises we have to make to be polite.  It's genuine in the sense that everyone interacting is nice, and has good intentions.   But it's fake, too-  surely everyone acknowledges that? Go through approved topics, display mild emotions.  If someone asks "how are you" they do mean it, but they also expect a shallow answer.  It's a performance you dont' have to put on for actual friends.

 

[poppy]

2 hours ago, elegantlion said:

 

I work at a museum at the front desk on the weekends. We get people from all over the region and country. I am a borderline hermit introvert, but worked customer service long enough to chit-chat and read the customers on whether they want to chit-chat or just get checked in. Because of the nature of the business, I have no expectation of how/if they will converse. I think this is part of my perception as a Missourian - I expect good customer service, doesn't have to be chatty - I provide good customer service - being flexible enough to see whatever each customer needs - not everyone needs to engage beyond the good morning stuff. For me, it's part of that work hard, be good at the job you do, and don't rock the boat about it - this is the kind of mentality my dad taught me. I wonder if that's part of the midwest mentality too. 

At work, however, I am exhausted at the end of the day, my patience wears out about an hour before I get off (which is when routine kicks in). 

Conversely, I interned in collections for the past year. I love it back there. I work side-by-side with a very quiet supervisor and we work, sometimes we chat, sometimes we have long conversations, but the solitude energizes me. Part of it is the nature of the work is more fulfilling, but I feel very different at the end of my intern days. 

As someone said above, I feel like I'm on all day if I have to chit-chat with everyone I encounter. Some days it's just enough interaction for my introverted self, other days I avoid places where I know it's going to happen. 

 

 

I do think there is a class component here. Required socialization is often a part of low paying work- clerks, servers.   It's something I, too, was glad to be able to put behind me once I got my college degree.  There are some exceptions , teachers and nurses are definitely "on" all day.   But we expect our low ranking customer service employees to put on a customer service 'show' in a way we'd never require  from a lawyer or physician or corporate honcho. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

 

And a northerner might wonder why you want to waste so much time on meaningless chit chat when you could be using it to do something useful for your fellow humans.

It appears both views can be expressed positively or negatively. Funny that.

 

 

I know, that’s why I specifically said one way wasn’t better. ?

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

That's part of the confusion I guess.  In some places obligatory, surface chit chat with strangers in shopping situations isn't really considered socializing. It's seen more as faux socializing where real socializing is intentionally spending set aside time with others and having deeper interactions.

I understand that. But here in my corner of the world it most often is considered socializing, and it's here, where I have a lifetime of experience, that I'm referring to. I've chatted with many an elderly person in the grocery store about unimportant things and come away with the niggling idea it may have been the only interaction they'd had with anyone in awhile. And I wasn't referring just to shopping. We have an elderly, (very) disabled veteran neighbor up the street. If he's out when I'm walking I try to stop and chit chat with him for a few minutes if he seems interested even if I'm pressed for time. I know he must get lonely. It's just him and his dog. Our dogs like each other, so it's no big deal for me to stop and chat with him and let the dogs play. He almost always seems SO eager for the interaction. I know there are many days when he doesn't go out and no one comes to see him. I do not, nor do I personally know anyone, who has things so important or so urgent to do that they couldn't or wouldn't at least occasionally spare a few minutes to chit chat with someone like that. I wouldn't want to live in a place where people felt like that was a problem or not to be done, although that's of course probably because it's what I'm used to. Had I been born/raised somewhere else I'd probably think a little differently. Maybe? IDK. It seems so much like very basic kindness to a fellow human that I can't imagine feeling otherwise.

[Clemsondana]

One thing that's interesting about people saying that the social interactions are fake is that there is the idea that people don't really mean it or don't really care.  I think the mindset is different.  Chatting while you work can break up an otherwise monotonous job (and it doesn't slow you down if you're used to chatting while you work).  People also use this as the opening to actually develop relationships, even if there is a business aspect to them.  My mom started seeing a hairstylist in a shop at the mall.  They chatted through appointments for years.  When the stylist started working out of her home, mom followed.  When she hit some really hard times during an ugly divorce, mom and I have taken groceries and I've given outgrown clothes for the grandchild that she's raising.  Following an injury, she came and cut my mom's hair at mom's house when mom couldn't get into a car to get to the beauty shop.  Mom's usual cashier at the grocery story was a younger guy.  The Christmas after his mom died, mom took cookies because she couldn't stand the thought of him having no mom-made cookies.  Sometimes these conversations lead to advice that makes life easier.  There's a shop near us that sells stone-ground popcorn grits - they are yummy, but take an hour to cook.  I was chatting about how my family loves these but only gets them occasionally because who has time to cook grits for an hour in the morning, and the clerk gave advice about how he cooks them overnight in the crock pot...and now we eat them more often.  At the mom-and-pop store, they'll ask if I've tried cooking one of my items in a particular way, or we'll chat about growing plants - I got some good advice about when to pick my heirloom tomatoes that I'm looking forward to trying.  Many of these little exchanges are just pleasantries, but there's a lot of information exchanged that makes life better - it's a way of contributing to the general happiness of the community.  

[Bluegoat]

13 hours ago, whitehawk said:

 

 

Didn't multiquote, but ktgrok, I am sure you are lovely, and you'd be a great neighbor where I live, but you will have a riot on your hands if you ever go on about yogurt like that in a Massachusetts grocery line. The other customers would be so, so unhappy with somebody holding up the line. Yes, even for 30 seconds, if it was to talk about yogurt flavors.

 

Would that really hold up the line?  Anytime I've chatted with the cashier it was at the same time that scanning or bagging or something else was going on.  It didn't take up any extra time.

[G5052]

I live in a small town near to a major metropolitan area, and chit-chat is completely the norm. People on the street you don't know will say "good morning" and sometimes make general comments. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Friends have suggested that we move closer "in" for employment opportunities, but I'd rather be poor and live here. Far less traffic and friendly people, and our neighborhood is very peaceful and dog-friendly. We have no HOA controlling us either, LOL. I can't stand having neighbors judge me for being late on mowing and having a few weeds.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I enjoy people. I enjoy hearing little snippets about their life. I have built up long time relationships from those snippets. Not from everyone, obviously. Some people that I chat with at the park I might never see again. But many people who are actual neighbors are encountered over and over again. And we build a relationship that has some trust in it even though they don’t know the more intimate things that a close friend might know. 

I have had more than one neighbor feel like they can trust me after those brief chit chatty encounters to call me in times of crisis. There was the call when my neighbor across the street’s husband left her. There was the call when my next door neighbor had a miscarriage.  I can’t see how we would have ever built up that trust if I shunned them. 

I guess the culture here fits with my personality. It also fits with my faith that says that everyone  is my neighbor and to treat all with respect.

Yes, I understand that people in other social cultures can have and express their faith - I just am comfortable with how to navigate that in this culture. I also am not trying to manipulate people through conversation in case someone wants to go in that direction as well. 

[solascriptura]

11 hours ago, moonflower said:

I think I will be less depressed now that I know not to wave or make small talk or smile much.  I think part of what was getting me down was negative social interactions -waving and getting the blank stare, or saying something inane but polite and being decidedly ignored, or smiling and being looked at like I had 3 heads.  No social interactions has got to be better than repeated negative ones.  I'll let you know in a year if I survived it, hah.  

 

I am, interestingly, very introverted.  I don't like people living with me (except DH and the kids), and I don't like talking about my actual problems or beliefs or worries to anyone.  Somehow, social niceties don't impinge on my introversion at all.  Neither does reading on a bus, or in a crowded cafeteria, though.  In fact, I think that because I'm pretty introverted, a fair amount of my regular positive social interaction has always come from these sort of casual everyday pleasantries - I don't really spend much quality time with anyone except DH.

I'm exactly the same way, so I understand what you're saying.  

[Kalmia]

Answering as a Mainer who has lived in both Maine and NY during various periods of my life and who has relatives in the south and in the midwest, and whose father has that generational, his family has been in Maine for almost 200 years, Maine ancestry cred. 

Maine is a subtle place. The natural beauty, the solitude, the hardship have molded the people over time to be respectful, reserved, and yet quietly there in times of crisis. Some areas of Maine have such a deep and interwoven history that an outsider might never break in. But these days, those areas are rarer than they once were. Mainers in rural areas often have two or three jobs to make ends meet. Many of them are land poor; they have a house with acreage but very little income. They often (almost by necessity) limit their social interactions to family and perhaps a town parade, church supper, or town meeting. Living in such close communities under hardship conditions sometimes elicits a strategy of minding one's own business in order to keep conflict low. Mainers are not the type to speak up about public/private matters (like how well kept a yard is) or private matters (like what church you go to). They believe in freedom that includes freedom from being judged by people. Many are independent, even eccentric, that live here in order to avoid things like the "lawn police" or any of the subtle or not so subtle social control that goes on in the American suburbs. This "freedom" extends to things like restaurants where they figure if you need water you'll call them, and you probably want to have your conversation uninterrupted by the waitress coming by ten times (being from here, I HATE it if the wait staff comes by more than once during a meal. It stops conversation in its tracks. Totally unnecessarily!)

Oh, there are plenty of extroverts here too. We are kind of a split culture too. With the English and Scottish and Irish descendants being more reserved and the Franco Americans displaying a lot more joy de vivre! It takes a while for the locals to warm up to new people (though this depends on the town, mid coast to southern coastal towns as well as mountain tourist towns like Fryeburg are used to a constant influx of new people and are "friendlier"). That doesn't mean that in a reserved small town the locals don't know exactly who the new folks are, where they live, what they do. They love gossip as much as any other folks, but it is kept real quiet (and men are just as big gossips as women here!) They hang back though and let newcomers settle in rather than overwhelming new folks with the welcome wagon. But if it seems the new folks are struggling with something big (broken down car, lack of food, ice dams on the roof), someone might drop by to lend a hand and accept no thanks. Mainers feel responsible for others, but not in chit chat sort of ways. They spring into action when hardship strikes. They are a literal safety net at times. And they are often very good at big jobs like cutting up that tree that fell across your driveway or winching you out of the ditch you slid into. Not so good at small pleasantries. Though if you are patient, you will find individuals open to a nice conversation. 

It is not necessarily productive to analyze every social interaction and how it "went south". So many cultural differences to wade through! It is better to be your normal polite and kind and helpful selves, the locals will soon enough learn you are respectful members of the community, good people, even if you are "from away". 

Mainers generally like children and dogs, though they don't talk about them much. They like outdoors activities. They like their small town events. They love their libraries, but often grouse about paying taxes to support them. They like art and artists. They aren't so much into music as other places. They love their writers (and not just Stephen King). Mostly they've carved out a decent life for themselves and are living it as best they can, occasionally with the three jobs and the weekend trips to Ma Mere & Pa Pere's and the grange meeting and the garden, they don't have room for "friends". That doesn't mean they don't want them.