Adjusting to new social norms when moving (subtitle: is everyone in New England really this rude?) UPDATE AT PAGE 7 or SO

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

 

My mind isn't blown. I've always known the attitude exists. But it makes me sad, especially in light of the ever increasing evidence that social isolation is very bad for us. I'm also saddened because as more and more people move here (NC) I can see our friendly southern culture slowly changing. Some of it for the good, but the erosion of being friendly and mannerly--definitely not a good thing.

 

I think when this works well, what you see is that while people give others space and privacy, over time fairly deep friendships come out of repeated interaction over years.  It's a more introverted culture in a way.

But when it's transferred to certain settings or instances where there isn't repeated interaction, it can become very socially isolating.

[solascriptura]

11 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

The entire idea that pleasant conversation and sharing goodwill is a waste of time has totally blown my mind! I'm from South Florida, which isn't REALLY southern, but I guess I picked up enough southern to never have considered that kind of conversation a waste of time. I mean, I'm reading it now, and I guess I get it, but man...yeah, a Southerner would wonder what on earth was so dad gum important that you don't ahve time for your fellow humans?

Seriously, mind blown. (and I'm not trying to say our way is better...I'm reading and getting what you are saying, it's just a total eye opener for me)

You see, I do have time for other humans and real conversation about meaningful topics.  I just don't want to discuss repeatedly how hot the weather is or how annoying it was to go to the store and find that your favorite soda was all out.  I consider that chit chat and it's rather draining.  I'd much rather talk to anyone about how they genuinely are doing or even if they need help in any way.  

[forty-two]

24 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

I know there are people who find  surface chit-chat emotionally  nourishing. My husband is one of those people.  But, I'm sure not one of them.  It's just noises we have to make to be polite.  It's genuine in the sense that everyone interacting is nice, and has good intentions.   But it's fake, too-  surely everyone acknowledges that? Go through approved topics, display mild emotions.  If someone asks "how are you" they do mean it, but they also expect a shallow answer.  It's a performance you dont' have to put on for actual friends.

For most of my introverted, not-socially-savvy life, I did not find surface chit-chat to be particularly emotionally nourishing.  It did feel like a performance at times, and I didn't see the point.  I also wasn't good at it, which contributed - both in the obvious "people don't like being forced to do things they aren't good at" sense, and also in the "when you aren't good at something you miss a lot of what's going on - you only see the most obvious 20-30% and aren't aware of all the depth and nuances and possibilities" sense.

I'm still not that good at it, but I've gotten good enough to realize that so-called "surface" chit-chat can be a lot more meaningful and nourishing than I ever gave it credit for.  It doesn't *have* to be a mere pro-forma, rote performance to satisfy social norms.  You can do more than just exchange "how are ya"/"fine" responses - in fact, the talented small talkers do just that.  There's several short answers to the "how are you?" question that aren't terribly deep but do invite further questioning.  I realized when I was moving just how engrained "fine" was as an answer.  I was completely stressed out of my gourd, but my reflexive answer was still "fine".  When I realized how stupid that was (I've been trying, mostly unsuccessfully, to find alternatives to the admittedly shallow, pointless-feeling exchange of rote "how are ya"/"fine" pleasantries that goes nowhere), I quickly added on, "Fine, except for moving stress".  And that gave the conversation a place to go. 

That seems to be key to making polite small talk not pointlessly rote - to give short, surface answers that open up a place for the conversation to go.  (Also to ask short, surface questions that are nevertheless open-ended, that can invite interesting answers, not just one-word rote answers.)  I suck at this - some time I'm going to have to sit down and brainstorm some interesting questions, and some responses to standard openers that are short and not too deep, but nevertheless lend themselves to follow-up questions.  People who are good at this do it automatically; I'm not good at it - I only recently realized that small talk could be interesting and not rote - but I want to get better at it.

Also, with people who aren't complete strangers, but are people you see semi-regularly - remembering things they told you and asking about them the next time you meet is a key way to make polite chit-chat more meaningful.  Because you talked to them about things you were genuinely interested about the first time, and then you actually cared enough to *remember* what they said and ask them about it again.  It helps to build up the casual acquaintance relationship over time - the chit-chat isn't perpetually that of near strangers over and over and over again, but it actually *goes* somewhere.  Again, I suck at this, but I'm going to try to get better.  I have a great memory for some things, and there's no reason I can't somehow apply it to remembering bits of interesting things people have told me about themselves.

[Bluegoat]

19 minutes ago, ClemsonDana said:

One thing that's interesting about people saying that the social interactions are fake is that there is the idea that people don't really mean it or don't really care.  I think the mindset is different.  Chatting while you work can break up an otherwise monotonous job (and it doesn't slow you down if you're used to chatting while you work).  People also use this as the opening to actually develop relationships, even if there is a business aspect to them.  My mom started seeing a hairstylist in a shop at the mall.  They chatted through appointments for years.  When the stylist started working out of her home, mom followed.  When she hit some really hard times during an ugly divorce, mom and I have taken groceries and I've given outgrown clothes for the grandchild that she's raising.  Following an injury, she came and cut my mom's hair at mom's house when mom couldn't get into a car to get to the beauty shop.  Mom's usual cashier at the grocery story was a younger guy.  The Christmas after his mom died, mom took cookies because she couldn't stand the thought of him having no mom-made cookies.  Sometimes these conversations lead to advice that makes life easier.  There's a shop near us that sells stone-ground popcorn grits - they are yummy, but take an hour to cook.  I was chatting about how my family loves these but only gets them occasionally because who has time to cook grits for an hour in the morning, and the clerk gave advice about how he cooks them overnight in the crock pot...and now we eat them more often.  At the mom-and-pop store, they'll ask if I've tried cooking one of my items in a particular way, or we'll chat about growing plants - I got some good advice about when to pick my heirloom tomatoes that I'm looking forward to trying.  Many of these little exchanges are just pleasantries, but there's a lot of information exchanged that makes life better - it's a way of contributing to the general happiness of the community.  

 

This makes me think of my grandad.  He used to walk around the mall every day, and he's often chat with the store clerks.  The clerk at the chocolate shop told me how one day he brought in some photos of aircraft carriers to show him because that had come up in conversation.  He used to always buy a Christmas gift for one of the young cosmetics clerks, a transexual woman, who he would chat with in The Bay.  All of the cleaners would save pop can tabs which he collected to donate to some sort of wheelchair fund.  And so on.

All of that just came out of  "superficial" interactions, but it was a big part of his social life, and i think was meaningful to the people there as well - quite far from some demand they "perform" social interaction.

[gardenmom5]

10 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

At least once a week, some man - always a man, for some reason - thinks it's funny to yell "Ay, chihuahua!" at us. It's not so amusing to me. It's just tiresome. (So says the woman who croons "You are so poodleful!" every time her other dog comes back from the groomers....)

Even more often I get "Oh, is that a chihuahua? And a toy poodle?" and I say yes and I smile, but inwardly I'm always tempted to say "No, they're pit bulls" just to see the look on their faces. (But I smile in actual pleasure when they tell me my doggies are cute! Because they are! They are the cutest and most wonderful doggies!)

do it!

dd used to have people ask where she got her red hair. (both sides have it.) - dh taught her to say "it came with the head".

when I was quite young, I was buying shoes (which were being "stretched") when the shoe dept from downstairs called to say a harpie of a mother (supposedly from vancouver BC) was on her way upstairs trying to find shoes for her (poor) daughter.   they were groveling over her trying to make her happy.  they pulled my salesperson away from me as one of those to try and help her. 

I was sitting there, waiting for my shoes and salesperson to be back to help me.  after the THREE salespeople helping her scurried off for a few minutes -this shrew - turned to me (at least 15' away) and demanded to know what I was doing there!?!   I wish.... I'd said I was buying a hat.

  14 hours ago, Garga said:

I worked customer service in a call center for a nationwide health insurance company.  I could go from talking to someone from South Carolina to talking to someone from New York city from one call to the next.  Tricky.  The southerners would start off with small talk, “So, how’s your weather where you are?  Hot enough for ya?  Got some snow?”  And the New Yorkers immediately got down to business, “My account number is X and I need to know Y.  Now.”  I learned to speak slower to someone from the south or they’d say, “Sweetie, you need to slow down so I can write down what your’e saying,” and faster for someone from the north, “Uh huh, uh huh, got it.” 

dh loves to chat like that with customer service.  but he's in sales.

I don't understand it, and would rather just get business done.  rarely do things turn chatty.

but this is helping me understand more where my rural midwestern grandmother might have been coming from in her social interaction style.

 

[JessReplanted]

I did not read all of the replies yet, but I’m sorry you are struggling. I grew up in MA but haven’t lived there in nearly 20 years, and we are about to move back there. I am anticipating some reverse culture shock. 

I think that changing your mindset drastically would really benefit you.  They are not intending to be rude - they are being direct. Driving is just different (close). Honking is a very acceptable form of communication. ?  Strangers generally don’t chitchat. In fact, a cashier may consider it “rude” to comment about the personal items you are buying or to try to engage with you in a familiar way when he/she doesn’t know you. 

And keep in mind the flip side - in many ways it is easier to make friends, because if someone says they want to get together, they really mean it. Also, there is an ingrained fierce loyalty. Once you have friends they will stick with you. 

I would focus on finding people who you think are potential friends, and start developing relationships. And I think that after you’ve been there for a while the general population won’t seem so abrasive. ((Hugs))

[katilac]

Cashiers and customers chatting are not holding up the line in my neck of the woods, because there is no reason one has to talk OR ring up groceries, lol. If they stopped ringing up groceries then yes, of course, that would be annoying. 

I also do not understand why it takes so long in some areas for cars to move straight forward, but no time at all for cars to turn left. They are both the first car in line! And the car going straight is not waiving their right of way if they don't move fast enough to suit you; if there is a wreck, the person turning left will get the ticket, period. 

The idea of casual greetings and chit-chat being fake is foreign to me. 

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

Speaking for myself only, I am not being fake friendly when I chit chat with people throughout my day. I have a sunny disposition. I am very interested in yogurt, dogs, cute shoes, curly hair, and above all else . . . the weather. I enjoy being friendly and polite and I love it when others are friendly and polite in return. I guess I’d better just stay down south where it is either appreciated or very well tolerated, LOL. 

 

 

[moonflower]

I am not good at making friendships, to be honest, without a forced social interaction to start them.  Because I work from home and homeschool the kids, not a lot of forced social interactions to be had except when waving to the neighbor, talking to the grocery cashier or librarian, etc.  

[forty-two]

Just now, moonflower said:

I am not good at making friendships, to be honest, without a forced social interaction to start them.  Because I work from home and homeschool the kids, not a lot of forced social interactions to be had except when waving to the neighbor, talking to the grocery cashier or librarian, etc.  

ITU.  I'm not even that great at talking to people without a forced social interaction to get things going.

Being a pastor's wife really gave me a social boost, just because it made me visible - people knew who I was and wanted to talk to me.  Plus doing church things together gives plenty of times to talk.  (It's probably the only reason I got enough social interaction, despite my lack of social savvy, to finally start *understanding* some of the basic "rules" to social interaction.)

[Frances]

1 hour ago, poppy said:

 

I do think there is a class component here. Required socialization is often a part of low paying work- clerks, servers.   It's something I, too, was glad to be able to put behind me once I got my college degree.  There are some exceptions , teachers and nurses are definitely "on" all day.   But we expect our low ranking customer service employees to put on a customer service 'show' in a way we'd never require  from a lawyer or physician or corporate honcho. 

I’m not sure I would agree with that. For some people, a physician’s social skills and social niceties are very important, and they will sometimes change doctors for that very reason. Also, my son had a part-time high end sales jobs during college where all of the clients were wealthy. He said he could instantly tell which ones were CEOs versus say techies because the CEOs had amazing social skills and could almost instantly make you feel like they were very interested in you. Whether they actually were or not, they always seemed very nice and sincere to him and took the time to treat everyone with respect and kindness. So maybe we don’t expect them to put on a ‘show’, but perhaps they’ve figured out that most people like to be acknowledged in a friendly and respectful way.

[Frances]

15 minutes ago, forty-two said:

ITU.  I'm not even that great at talking to people without a forced social interaction to get things going.

Being a pastor's wife really gave me a social boost, just because it made me visible - people knew who I was and wanted to talk to me.  Plus doing church things together gives plenty of times to talk.  (It's probably the only reason I got enough social interaction, despite my lack of social savvy, to finally start *understanding* some of the basic "rules" to social interaction.)

My son, even from a very young age, really helped me with this. I’m an introverted by nature and not very outgoing. But he was always very verbal, curious, and talkative, so would readily engage with others when we were out and about, and I would get drawn in too. Eventually, I became more comfortable on my own.

[moonflower]

I do not, alas, go to church.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

7 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m not sure I would agree with that. For some people, a physician’s social skills and social niceties and are very important, and they will sometimes change doctors for that very reason. Also, my son had a part-time high end sales jobs during college where all of the clients were wealthy. He said he could instantly tell which ones were CEOs versus say techies because the CEOs had amazing social skills and could almost instantly make you feel like they were very interested in you. Whether they actually were or not, they always seemed very nice and sincere to him and took the time to treat everyone with respect and kindness. So maybe we don’t expect them to put on a ‘show’, but perhaps they’ve figured out that most people like to be acknowledged in a friendly and respectful way.

 

Absolutely, part of my job when I was working at the university was to help medical/pharmacy/advanced nursing students learn to get in touch with themselves as people. There is so much laser focus required to be successful in medical school that it is easy to lose that bit of common humanity. This includes interacting with others in a personable way. People lose trust with doctors who act like walking science textbooks, there needs to be a sense of openness to build rapport.

If my doctor can’t take a moment to chat with me about my whole life, not just why I’m there today, I wouldn’t let him examine me. But I must have a very grandmotherly demeanor. Usually people end up telling me their entire life stories. 

 

 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I've read the first and last pages of this long thread, and wanted to add my experience.

I moved to Vermont in the late 70s as an engineering coop student and was almost unbearably lonely for a while.  I felt like an alien, pretty much.  Well, I WAS an alien.  I was a woman engineer (unheard of) from California (danger, Will Robinson!) and specifically from Berkeley and San Francisco (alien in spades).  It took forever to make friends, and well-meaning people who tried to be friendly tended to ask me about California stereotypes that didn't apply to me, like "How are the drugs in California?  I hear they are fantastic."  Um.  I don't do drugs.  And if I did, I surely would not talk about them in the workplace.  (What I actually answered was, You know, I really don't know.  I smiled, but this was pretty much the end of the conversation.)

HOWEVER.  Two things were really noticeably helpful.  One was that I hunted up a church to attend and went regularly.  I made friends there--older ones, but still.  People existed who would talk with me.  The other was that I realized that if I went back there to live I needed to work in a department where there were more people from out of state--then we would be in the same boat socially and could bond a bit.  ALSO, over the 5 1/2 months of my stay there, I did make some friends.  It was quite gradual, but those were deep friendships that lasted for years.  I did not expect to be accepted as a native Vermonter, but I did make some real connections--they were slower but deeper and much more sincere than was typical in California.  I think you might find that over time, if you are really yourself and very literal in your communications, you will find a niche of people who will have your back in a way and to an extent that is not true in most of the country. 

So a year later when I graduated, I did interview there, and I got a good offer in a newer area of the company, and I moved there for several years and was very happy.  The friends I had made when I first got there remained, and I made new ones.  It's important not to talk too much and not to remark at length on why the area is so great, or (worse) why it's so terrible.  Be literal in your speech, smile and be a little quiet, and sooner or later you will find a tribe that you'll love, I'll bet.  These people are generally of very clear and trustworthy character, and that is wonderful.

[Pen]

Aside on the driving question—

 

I have been puzzling over how it would be that a car making a left turn would be able to accelerate faster than one going straight ahead if all are starting from a stationary position and the light turns green for all at the same time. I wonder if the drivers going straight have developed a tendency to delay their start to allow for the left turning cars opposite  

When I was in Maine, or where I was, there was no traffic to speak of and I don’t recall this coming up. 

I n the city near where  I live now, the technically illegal thing done by many/most left turn makers is to go into the intersection while the light is still green, and then complete their left turn when the light turns red, stopping oncoming traffic. Sometimes that is unavoidable if it looks at first like there will be a space to turn but then there isn’t. 

 

[Frances]

10 minutes ago, Pen said:

Aside on the driving question—

 

I have been puzzling over how it would be that a car making a left turn would be able to accelerate faster than one going straight ahead if all are starting from a stationary position and the light turns green for all at the same time. I wonder if the drivers going straight have developed a tendency to delay their start to allow for the left turning cars opposite  

When I was in Maine, or where I was, there was no traffic to speak of and I don’t recall this coming up. 

I n the city near where  I live now, the technically illegal thing done by many/most left turn makers is to go into the intersection while the light is still green, and then complete their left turn when the light turns red, stopping oncoming traffic. Sometimes that is unavoidable if it looks at first like there will be a space to turn but then there isn’t. 

 

It’s  also dangerous because if the car in the intersection were hit from behind, it would be sent straight into a collision. Until this thread I’d never heard that in some parts of the country it’s expected for the car turning left to go before those going straight. It seems very dangerous and completely nuts to me. If there is that much difficulty with left turns at a particular intersection, it seems like the perfect place for a new stoplight with turn arrows.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, moonflower said:

I do not, alas, go to church.

I have to say that although I'm not particularly religious, and can't really call myself a Christian, I do go to church, and it's one of the primary ways I met people in town - since I homeschooled, I couldn't meet people through school activities.  UUA churches don't require you to believe anything in particular, or even anything at all.  Most New England towns have a Unitarian church.  (My particular church is UUA/UCC, but it's also ultra-liberal and will welcome anyone with any beliefs or lack thereof.  But it's been great for community).

[Matryoshka]

40 minutes ago, Frances said:

It’s  also dangerous because if the car in the intersection were hit from behind, it would be sent straight into a collision. Until this thread I’d never heard that in some parts of the country it’s expected for the car turning left to go before those going straight. It seems very dangerous and completely nuts to me.

Well, if no one turned left before the line of cars (or the alternate maneuver of sitting in the middle of the intersection until the light is about to turn red and then zipping left), then in many intersections, ZERO cars would ever be able to turn left, ever.  The wall of cars that comes through at many lights is constant.  Trying to zip between the less than one car length between them during the green cycle would be way more dangerous than going before and/or after the flood.   And, again, everyone expects and is watching for this behavior.

Quote

If there is that much difficulty with left turns at a particular intersection, it seems like the perfect place for a new stoplight with turn arrows.

Yes, this makes perfect sense, and if I were dictator of traffic lights I would fix it all immediately, but the lights around here are not timed with each other or aligned to the actual traffic flow a huge amount of the time, and no one seems to ever fix it.  I think its some kind of local perversion akin to never putting street signs up on many of the streets, or if they do, it's just the cross streets - apparently you're supposed to know the main streets by some wafting of the ether.  Which is especially annoying since if you miss a turn you can't just go around the block most places, as rarely are the streets straight or in any kind of grid...  this is especially true in Boston proper, which explains a lot about the driving there.  If you make a wrong turn, you may never find you way back...

Oh, and these left turn things happens also at lights with turn arrows.  Some are, in fact, generous enough to let the normal flow of traffic through, but too many let few just 3-4 cars when there are many more than that in line, and it can snowball so that people are waiting 10-15 minutes to turn left.   Especially at those lights, it is extra-special annoying if someone lets 2-3 car lengths go between them and the person in front of you turning left.  So those two are the only ones that get to go, as two more cars could have gotten through if they hadn't been so fa-la-la about getting through the light.  That well and truly is a time where it's polite to tailgate through the turn - the people waiting in the line in back also deserve some consideration.

[Kalmia]

Since it sounds like you frequent the library adding a few Maine titles to your haul might give some insight to the culture here. The books are all works of fiction, but a good start:

Empire Falls by Richard Russo (really about Waterville, ME)

Olive Kitteridge by Elizabeth Strout (Brunswick area)

Home Repair is Homicide Mystery Series by Sarah Graves (Eastport) (fun cozy mysteries) 

Answer the Tide by Olivia Ogilvie (down east)

Also reading back issues of Down East Magazine (Maine) and Yankee Magazine (all of NE) will alert you to interesting people, areas, things to do.

[moonflower]

18 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I have to say that although I'm not particularly religious, and can't really call myself a Christian, I do go to church, and it's one of the primary ways I met people in town - since I homeschooled, I couldn't meet people through school activities.  UUA churches don't require you to believe anything in particular, or even anything at all.  Most New England towns have a Unitarian church.  (My particular church is UUA/UCC, but it's also ultra-liberal and will welcome anyone with any beliefs or lack thereof.  But it's been great for community).

 

I am ultra-conservative :)  A Unitarian church would be a very bad fit for me (I've been to one, once, in my childhood). I am more conservative, socially, than probably 95% of these forums, if that is any indication.  I'm just not religious (for me, while I see the value of religion and Christianity in the US in particular, any concrete belief in the basic precepts of Christianity is a dead hypothesis.)  Makes establishing community ties hard!

[Lucy the Valiant]

4 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, if no one turned left before the line of cars (or the alternate maneuver of sitting in the middle of the intersection until the light is about to turn red and then zipping left), then in many intersections, ZERO cars would ever be able to turn left, ever.  The wall of cars that comes through at many lights is constant.  Trying to zip between the less than one car length between them during the green cycle would be way more dangerous than going before and/or after the flood.   And, again, everyone expects and is watching for this behavior.

Yes, this makes perfect sense, and if I were dictator of traffic lights I would fix it all immediately, but the lights around here are not timed with each other or aligned to the actual traffic flow a huge amount of the time, and no one seems to ever fix it.  I think its some kind of local perversion akin to never putting street signs up on many of the streets, or if they do, it's just the cross streets - apparently you're supposed to know the main streets by some wafting of the ether.  Which is especially annoying since if you miss a turn you can't just go around the block most places, as rarely are the streets straight or in any kind of grid...  this is especially true in Boston proper, which explains a lot about the driving there.  If you make a wrong turn, you may never find you way back...

Oh, and these left turn things happens also at lights with turn arrows.  Some are, in fact, generous enough to let the normal flow of traffic through, but too many let few just 3-4 cars when there are many more than that in line, and it can snowball so that people are waiting 10-15 minutes to turn left.   Especially at those lights, it is extra-special annoying if someone lets 2-3 car lengths go between them and the person in front of you turning left.  So those two are the only ones that get to go, as two more cars could have gotten through if they hadn't been so fa-la-la about getting through the light.  That well and truly is a time where it's polite to tailgate through the turn - the people waiting in the line in back also deserve some consideration.

 

Yep.

Two things I noticed as a transplant to New England are that (1) most roads are NOT straight (so yes, there is more space for the left-turning car to get through than the straight-coming car, which gives enough time), and (2) yes, this situation is avoided in most of the USA by left-turn lanes. The roads in New England are older than cars, so there's not enough room for extra lanes, and the houses and businesses are built RIGHT UP TO THE ROAD in many corners. So while "adding a turn lane" seems like an easy fix, the voters would have to vote to tear down their own buildings in order to do so, in many squares. I've personally named the maneuver the "jump turn," though I'm still seeking grass-roots level support for my new vocab term. *grin * 

Because it's expected, it's really not that dangerous up here. 

I lived a short time in South Korea in the 90's, and in Seoul at the time, everyone parked in neutral all right on top of each other (no dedicated spaces), and you just tucked a small stone behind your tires to keep it from rolling away, and then pushed yourself out in the morning. It was so strange to me at first, but - it's expected, and does have its pros as well as its cons. 

Like jump turns. ?

[moonflower]

9 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, if no one turned left before the line of cars (or the alternate maneuver of sitting in the middle of the intersection until the light is about to turn red and then zipping left), then in many intersections, ZERO cars would ever be able to turn left, ever.  The wall of cars that comes through at many lights is constant.  Trying to zip between the less than one car length between them during the green cycle would be way more dangerous than going before and/or after the flood.   And, again, everyone expects and is watching for this behavior.

Yes, this makes perfect sense, and if I were dictator of traffic lights I would fix it all immediately, but the lights around here are not timed with each other or aligned to the actual traffic flow a huge amount of the time, and no one seems to ever fix it.  I think its some kind of local perversion akin to never putting street signs up on many of the streets, or if they do, it's just the cross streets - apparently you're supposed to know the main streets by some wafting of the ether.  Which is especially annoying since if you miss a turn you can't just go around the block most places, as rarely are the streets straight or in any kind of grid...  this is especially true in Boston proper, which explains a lot about the driving there.  If you make a wrong turn, you may never find you way back...

Oh, and these left turn things happens also at lights with turn arrows.  Some are, in fact, generous enough to let the normal flow of traffic through, but too many let few just 3-4 cars when there are many more than that in line, and it can snowball so that people are waiting 10-15 minutes to turn left.   Especially at those lights, it is extra-special annoying if someone lets 2-3 car lengths go between them and the person in front of you turning left.  So those two are the only ones that get to go, as two more cars could have gotten through if they hadn't been so fa-la-la about getting through the light.  That well and truly is a time where it's polite to tailgate through the turn - the people waiting in the line in back also deserve some consideration.

 

 

This has been making me nuts (the bolded).  When they do label streets, it's only the cross street, never the bigger street you're actually on.  And the names of streets change in the middle of the street for no reason, or they have like 4 different names.  So if you turn down what is initially labeled Dickey Farms Road, and after a mile or so you see a mailbox that says 345 Curtis Road, and you think oh crap, am I on Curtis Road? so you start looking for street signs, only the cross streets are labelled! You could drive for 5 more miles and have no earthly idea where the hell you are.

Why yes, I have gotten lost a lot recently :)

[Matryoshka]

3 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

I am ultra-conservative :)  A Unitarian church would be a very bad fit for me (I've been to one, once, in my childhood). I am more conservative, socially, than probably 95% of these forums, if that is any indication.  I'm just not religious (for me, while I see the value of religion and Christianity in the US in particular, any concrete belief in the basic precepts of Christianity is a dead hypothesis.)  Makes establishing community ties hard!

 

LOL, then that would be a bad fit.  I think rural Maine is on the conservative side compared to the rest of New England, so you may well find like-minded folk...

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, moonflower said:

This has been making me nuts (the bolded).  When they do label streets, it's only the cross street, never the bigger street you're actually on.  And the names of streets change in the middle of the street for no reason, or they have like 4 different names.  So if you turn down what is initially labeled Dickey Farms Road, and after a mile or so you see a mailbox that says 345 Curtis Road, and you think oh crap, am I on Curtis Road? so you start looking for street signs, only the cross streets are labelled! You could drive for 5 more miles and have no earthly idea where the hell you are.

Why yes, I have gotten lost a lot recently :)

Yes, even as a local I find this incredibly annoying and perplexing...  often the streets change names at town lines, but there's no indication.  Other time it's just for the heck of it.  Or the street that goes straight gets a new name and what appears to be a right hand turn keeps the name of the street you were on...  at least this has been easier since the advent of Google maps... 

[Lucy the Valiant]

1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

Yes, even as a local I find this incredibly annoying and perplexing...  often the streets change names at town lines, but there's no indication.  Other time it's just for the heck of it.  Or the street that goes straight gets a new name and what appears to be a right hand turn keeps the name of the street you were on...  at least this has been easier since the advent of Google maps... 

Ditto.

 

[Osmosis Mom]

I have lived in NE for the past 18 years or so and am originally from Denmark where people are really dry. I find New Englanders to generally be just about chatty and friendly enough without intruding on my privacy! Last year my husband and I visited Kansas City and were "creeped out" by how friendly people were and the in depth conversations that happened within 30 seconds of greeting someone walking their dog or the cleaner at the hotel! It was definitely a culture shock. First off, then you might live in a depressed Maine town, that I don't know, but in general, don't take it personally and just find the right jargon and be direct, not open-ended in your requests and conversations.

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, Osmosis Mom said:

  originally from Denmark where people are really dry. 

 

 

I remember reading an article in the business section a few years ago about Americans working abroad. Apparently, the Nordic countries were baffled and annoyed that the Americans would greet people over and over again throughout the day. The Americans weren't used to passing someone in the hallway without saying something, but the natives were like, you said hello this morning! Enough already! 

[Liz CA]

4 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

I remember reading an article in the business section a few years ago about Americans working abroad. Apparently, the Nordic countries were baffled and annoyed that the Americans would greet people over and over again throughout the day. The Americans weren't used to passing someone in the hallway without saying something, but the natives were like, you said hello this morning! Enough already! 

 

Yup, this was a little funny to me at first. Coming from a Scandinavian culture, the constant "Hi" and "hi" again seemed repetitive.  :) 

 

[Osmosis Mom]

4 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

I remember reading an article in the business section a few years ago about Americans working abroad. Apparently, the Nordic countries were baffled and annoyed that the Americans would greet people over and over again throughout the day. The Americans weren't used to passing someone in the hallway without saying something, but the natives were like, you said hello this morning! Enough already! 

Hahahaha!!! I  just came back from visiting there this week and a couple of times greeted people with Good Morning! instead of a basic flat Hi. Oh, boy, both times I felt like I put the person on the spot and they were totally caught off guard from the more intimate impression of Good morning! Of course here in NE, we use good morning until noon etc. I think  it is very interesting to learn the cultural language or places (or re-learn after meeting other cultures as in my case when I go back to DK). It took me a while to decode exactly what to say and how here in NE to get the reaction I needed so the OP will probably figure it out without taking things personally.

 

[AmandaVT]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

Aside on the driving question—

 

I have been puzzling over how it would be that a car making a left turn would be able to accelerate faster than one going straight ahead if all are starting from a stationary position and the light turns green for all at the same time. I wonder if the drivers going straight have developed a tendency to delay their start to allow for the left turning cars opposite  

When I was in Maine, or where I was, there was no traffic to speak of and I don’t recall this coming up. 

I n the city near where  I live now, the technically illegal thing done by many/most left turn makers is to go into the intersection while the light is still green, and then complete their left turn when the light turns red, stopping oncoming traffic. Sometimes that is unavoidable if it looks at first like there will be a space to turn but then there isn’t. 

 

2

 

I can answer this one. If you're turning left, you have to be ready. No sleeping on the job. As the cars going left/right come to a stop, you can get ready to go, and the second the light turns green, you gun it and make it through before the people going straight wake up to the fact that the light is green. ? And PP has it correct - making eye contact shows weakness when driving. I'm a pretty relaxed driver in VT, but my southern New England driving habits come out in force when I'm in Boston or RI. 

I've lived in NE my whole life and I agree with the fact that it feels rude to tie up someone's time at the store with inane chit-chat. If there's something to talk about, then yes, but mindless chit-chat is rude. I'm a very friendly person, but when I was a cashier, I would never comment on a customer's groceries. It feels almost as rude as spitting on their food or something to me. 

 

[Pawz4me]

10 minutes ago, AmandaVT said:

 

I can answer this one. If you're turning left, you have to be ready. No sleeping on the job. As the cars going left/right come to a stop, you can get ready to go, and the second the light turns green, you gun it and make it through before the people going straight wake up to the fact that the light is green. ? And PP has it correct - making eye contact shows weakness when driving. I'm a pretty relaxed driver in VT, but my southern New England driving habits come out in force when I'm in Boston or RI. 

 

Around here more often than not there's someone (or two or three someones) flooring it thinking they can make it through a yellow light. But the light is usually already red. People who are on the side where it's turning green have to be hyper alert, because you often get the green light before an intersection has cleared of those idiots. I cannot imagine the carnage that would occur if someone tried to hustle up and turn left right when the light turned green. There would be many, many horrible collisions. Either thing is incredibly stupid to do, but it seems to me trying to jump the green and make a left before oncoming traffic wins for stupidity.

[moonflower]

I just want to say: in my experience, the mindless chitchat in line does not take any time at all.  Like, zero time.  If it did take time (if there's a customer behind you in line), that would be considered rude.  It happens while other things are happening.

The left on green thing just seems like a different custom; in the midwest, at busy stoplights that really should have a left turn lane/light but don't, we turn during yellow/red (one car moves into the intersection and goes after the line opposite has stopped for the red).  The line opposite anticipates this and it is rude if you are in that lane with a car trying to turn left opposite you to run through the late part of yellow/early red.  Here in NE, I guess, they do this before the opposite line of cars starts - the opposite line delays a bit to allow that first left turn.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, Osmosis Mom said:

I have lived in NE for the past 18 years or so and am originally from Denmark where people are really dry. I find New Englanders to generally be just about chatty and friendly enough without intruding on my privacy! Last year my husband and I visited Kansas City and were "creeped out" by how friendly people were and the in depth conversations that happened within 30 seconds of greeting someone walking their dog or the cleaner at the hotel! It was definitely a culture shock. First off, then you might live in a depressed Maine town, that I don't know, but in general, don't take it personally and just find the right jargon and be direct, not open-ended in your requests and conversations.

 

1 hour ago, katilac said:

 

I remember reading an article in the business section a few years ago about Americans working abroad. Apparently, the Nordic countries were baffled and annoyed that the Americans would greet people over and over again throughout the day. The Americans weren't used to passing someone in the hallway without saying something, but the natives were like, you said hello this morning! Enough already! 

My relatives in rural Maine are direct descendants of Norwegian immigrants. In parts of Maine you can see the Norway Bank and Norway Road.  My uncle (father's brother) had DNA testing done, and while it has to be taken with a grain of salt, he tests 50% Scandinavian. The paternal sir name is Norwegian. The ancestral records at Ancestry.com indicate immigration from Norway by way of Scotland during the very late 1600s. I'm guessing part of their characteristic restraint comes from countries of origins where restraint is typical, like Nordic countries that fed a significant percentage of the population there for quite a while. Sure they've mixed with descendants from the British Isles (the other half of his DNA testing is a combination of that) and their distant Nordic cousins see the differences, but the restraint still there and noticeable to people from different cultural norms. Sometimes when my favorite cousin, who still lives there, feels frustrated with fussy drama from other people, I joke with her that we're descended from shield maidens who have low tolerance nonsense-it's in our DNA.

[Crimson Wife]

To me, there's a difference between chit-chatting during a time designated for socializing, like the coffee & refreshments hour after church service, and doing it while conducting a business transaction. The people who don't want to chat for whatever reason can just leave right after church NBD. But don't chit-chat at me while I'm being held hostage because you're ringing up my purchase or whatever. That's just annoying.

[moonflower]

DH (half of whose family is in/from New England) is largely Scandinavian of ancestry (on both sides).  He is more direct than I am and likes it better here - except that they drive too slowly for him, and unlike drivers in the midwest and Colorado, who largely just move over so DH can fly by them, they either speed up when you try to pass them (which is rude and dangerous, imo) or speed up behind you after you pass them and start flashing you and honking and tailgating and etc., which is also rude and dangerous.

But other than the driving he fits in here better than I do for sure.

[HS Mom in NC]

40 minutes ago, moonflower said:

I just want to say: in my experience, the mindless chitchat in line does not take any time at all.

Not everyone enjoys mindlessness.  To them it's a mental and emotional drain and quite irritating. For some people, as stated upthread a couple of times, being out of their house is an opportunity to be alone with their thoughts. It's like music that's too loud in restaurants, in parking lots, and in stores.  Some of us don't want to be distracted from our thoughts.

In PHX people talk incessantly about the weather.  Hot and sunny in the summer isn't comment worthy, but people will drone on about it.  It's only comment worthy when it isn't hot and sunny in Phoenix in the summer, which is incredibly rare.

Here people crab about the rain and it's the dry season according to the locals. In spring, when we looked at houses, they apologized for it. (!?!?!) They're surprised when I respond that I love it because I'm from PHX where we've had low rain for 30 years, drought conditions for 18, water supply levels are at 40%, and that last year the city I lived in got less than 1 inch of rain.  They seem surprised that weather can be a serious topic and don't seem to know how to respond.  Apparently they don't really want to talk about the weather.  It happened again today at lunch with the waitress.

[moonflower]

Oh, I can definitely see how it is impositional or undesirable to some people, while the silence and lack of response (or glaring response) is undesirable to others.  I'm just saying that the objection of wasting time is a misunderstanding of how it works (at least in my experience) - it's not an additional time thing.

Unless the people saying that were trying to say that it wastes their internal monologue/thinking time, which I agree that it does - but I thought the objection was the wasting of actual time, like time you would spend going somewhere or doing something.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don’t get the grumpy railing against much of society. I have found it interesting to read the cultural explanations for the OP and am starting to understand them better.  But there are cultural norms (and reasons for those cultural norms) in other parts of the country- and world - as well.

Fitting in socially in our communities has a important purpose for us as humans. As a teacher and a mom I have made sure that I educate my kids (both my Aspie and NT kid) in appropriate social skills for where we live. I would see their inability to fit in and relate to people as a serious deficit. 

[HS Mom in NC]

16 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Oh, I can definitely see how it is impositional or undesirable to some people, while the silence and lack of response (or glaring response) is undesirable to others.  I'm just saying that the objection of wasting time is a misunderstanding of how it works (at least in my experience) - it's not an additional time thing.

Unless the people saying that were trying to say that it wastes their internal monologue/thinking time, which I agree that it does - but I thought the objection was the wasting of actual time, like time you would spend going somewhere or doing something.

It can be either one, depending on the situation.

[Bluegoat]

3 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Yes, even as a local I find this incredibly annoying and perplexing...  often the streets change names at town lines, but there's no indication.  Other time it's just for the heck of it.  Or the street that goes straight gets a new name and what appears to be a right hand turn keeps the name of the street you were on...  at least this has been easier since the advent of Google maps... 

 

I think this usually happens because at one time they were different roads, or in different villages, or they connected up in a different way than they do now.

 

[Bluegoat]

48 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Not everyone enjoys mindlessness.  To them it's a mental and emotional drain and quite irritating. For some people, as stated upthread a couple of times, being out of their house is an opportunity to be alone with their thoughts. It's like music that's too loud in restaurants, in parking lots, and in stores.  Some of us don't want to be distracted from our thoughts.

In PHX people talk incessantly about the weather.  Hot and sunny in the summer isn't comment worthy, but people will drone on about it.  It's only comment worthy when it isn't hot and sunny in Phoenix in the summer, which is incredibly rare.

Here people crab about the rain and it's the dry season according to the locals. In spring, when we looked at houses, they apologized for it. (!?!?!) They're surprised when I respond that I love it because I'm from PHX where we've had low rain for 30 years, drought conditions for 18, water supply levels are at 40%, and that last year the city I lived in got less than 1 inch of rain.  They seem surprised that weather can be a serious topic and don't seem to know how to respond.  Apparently they don't really want to talk about the weather.  It happened again today at lunch with the waitress.

 

I understand not wanting to chitchat, I'm pretty introverted.  I don't understand seeing it as an imposition and rude if someone talks to me in a line.  A society has people, and if you go out, sometimes they talk to you.  I don't really see a connection between some people, at some times, not wanting to talk and it being rude to talk to people.

[AmandaVT]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Around here more often than not there's someone (or two or three someones) flooring it thinking they can make it through a yellow light. But the light is usually already red. People who are on the side where it's turning green have to be hyper alert, because you often get the green light before an intersection has cleared of those idiots. I cannot imagine the carnage that would occur if someone tried to hustle up and turn left right when the light turned green. There would be many, many horrible collisions. Either thing is incredibly stupid to do, but it seems to me trying to jump the green and make a left before oncoming traffic wins for stupidity.

 

Well, you look first before you go. If the traffic isn't stopping for the red light, it would be a terrible idea to jump at the green. I feel like in NE, there are more people jumping the green than failing to stop at the red lights though. I promise I don't drive like a maniac. I think my one and only ticket was about 20 years ago - there's just a way that locals drive and everyone kind of falls into it. 

[MEmama]

4 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

 

This has been making me nuts (the bolded).  When they do label streets, it's only the cross street, never the bigger street you're actually on.  And the names of streets change in the middle of the street for no reason, or they have like 4 different names.  So if you turn down what is initially labeled Dickey Farms Road, and after a mile or so you see a mailbox that says 345 Curtis Road, and you think oh crap, am I on Curtis Road? so you start looking for street signs, only the cross streets are labelled! You could drive for 5 more miles and have no earthly idea where the hell you are.

Why yes, I have gotten lost a lot recently :)

Lol. You'll get used to it. Just like you'll get used to directions--you've heard it, I'm sure: just follow the road a bit until you get to the old grange, make a left where the Allens used to live and go up the hill to the big dirt pile. It'll be on your left after that. Ha ha! The crazy thing is, they are always right (as long as you can figure out who used to live where or where a gas station used to be!). :)

[Carol in Cal.]

Here is the book to read.  Seriously.  It is intended to be funny, and they are, but it totally nailed the culture.

https://www.amazon.com/Other-Vermont-Dialogues-Jennison-Paperback/dp/B015X47SI4/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1531007428&sr=8-2&keywords=yup+nope+and+other+vermont+dialogues

 

[Carol in Cal.]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Lol. You'll get used to it. Just like you'll get used to directions--you've heard it, I'm sure: just follow the road a bit until you get to the old grange, make a left where the Allens used to live and go up the hill to the big dirt pile. It'll be on your left after that. Ha ha! The crazy thing is, they are always right (as long as you can figure out who used to live where or where a gas station used to be!). ?

 

Or "Can't get there from here."

[MEmama]

So because of this thread, I paid extra close attention to our interactions in Boston today:

1. Every single toll booth worker between here and there greeted us and thanked us. 

2. Every time we entered a building, either the person in front of us held it open for us after entering, or thanked us for doing the same for them.

3. Every cashier and restaurant worker was helpful, friendly, energetic and kind. Always a greeting, usually a nicety like a joke, and always a genuine thank you & have a great afternoon.

4. We engaged in a short conversation with strangers on the sidewalk, and she was very gracious about the incident which inspired our exchange (a car that nearly hit her).

5. It was split about 50/50 whether people jaywalked at red lights at intersections, or waited patiently. 

6. At every intersection without a light, cars waited and waved us on to cross.

I've always found Bostonians to be as nice as anyone, which today confirmed. It was just a regular day doing the regular stuff we always do. I can't for the life of me figure out how any of those interactions could be considered rude? 

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, moonflower said:

I am not good at making friendships, to be honest, without a forced social interaction to start them.  Because I work from home and homeschool the kids, not a lot of forced social interactions to be had except when waving to the neighbor, talking to the grocery cashier or librarian, etc.  

There used to be quite an active homeschool group in Dover-Foxcroft, maybe not so far from you. From what I'd read it was very conservative and very religious, but I don't know anything about them other than that. Might suit your needs or at least be worth checking out. I would expect Bangor might have a group as well.

You are in a generally conservative part of the state, though it might be a very different kind of conservatism than what you might be used to. You will not have people asking what church you go to (they probably aren't religious), and it's unlikely anyone will offer up political or divisive views unless you know them very well. It's more likely that they want to preserve their right to hunt and go ATVing on public land. 

If you want to make friends, YOU will have to reach out. Again and again and again until something sticks. Expecting others to reach out to you is not so realistic. I have found this to be true everywhere I have ever lived, and will be especially true in your neck of the woods. Give it time. 

[Happy2BaMom]

Well, I think you're having a tough time & I think that fact has put you in a mental mode where you are going to continue to have a tough time. And I'm hoping I can post my thoughts without seeming too harsh...I aim to be helpful by pointing a few things out. 

My inner warning bell always sounds whenever I hear/see someone state "the people of this area/region are all ___________". Mostly because it's my belief that when someone is making blanket statements about tens of thousands of other people (if not far more), than the statement being made reflects more upon the speaker than the population being examined. Having a subtitle of "Is everyone in New England really this rude?" is really just a variation of "does everyone in New England suck?"....and it's kind of meant to draw out an agreement with your assessment. And in your posts that follow you seem (IMHO) to be really nursing some hurt feelings or even grudges over some (again, IMHO) really pretty insignificant social interactions. Tangential discussions over whether (or how much) chit chat should (or should not) be polite/permissable/followed doesn't really address the underlying conditions that: you don't seem to like where you're at, you seem somewhat resentful about it, and you kind of want to cast all those about you as villains, or at least lacking in social skills or worth. 

And even that's OK. Maybe Maine just isn't your cup of tea. But, for your own mental health while your there, I encourage you to do the long-urged remedy of "Do something for someone else." Find a charity or people or animals or whatever that is really hurting, with really scary problems/issues, and give your time. You might feel far better after, and perhaps meet a nice person or two. And, if it doesn't resolve w/i another 6 months (or whatever), you probably will be happier moving. 

And, one last side note, my family & I just spent 3 weeks in the mid-coast/southern parts of ME, and as far inland as Augusta. We loved it. We couldn't believe how friendly Mainers were. I had many people respond so nicely to my general inquiries about whatever-question-I-had. I had two life-long Mainers just start talking to me while 1) walking along a street and 2) sitting in a restaurant. We had great conversations. People in Boston were also quite open & helpful. (I will grant you the driving is insane, but I don't know that Seattle or any other large city is better.) I know it was only 3 weeks, but I've vacationed elsewhere without having had that same experience, so there have to be some friendly people there. 

[JessReplanted]

On 7/6/2018 at 5:32 PM, moonflower said:

I felt like half of Massachusetts was Boston metro.  There were just so many people!  And when we pulled over at a gas station, it was like breathing for a minute before you get back in the ring.

Maybe that is actually the sensation of driving somewhere where you're not entirely sure of/comfortable with the driving customs, so you have to be on edge all the time.  

We live outside of Dallas and I feel this way every time I have to drive on the highway. And my NE family has been mortified by the driving here! ? They all think it is so much worse than back home.