Adjusting to new social norms when moving (subtitle: is everyone in New England really this rude?) UPDATE AT PAGE 7 or SO

[Katy]

11 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Me too. I think most of the people down here really do want you to have a nice day. That's why they say it.

Also, I am Southern born and bred. Never lived anywhere else. And I've never once heard "bless your heart" used as a euphemism for "go to he--." I know that's the stereotype, but really, I've never heard it used that way. Around here, it usually means you feel sorry for somebody. 

 

It can be a gentle way to put someone in their place, but that's the harshest it will be.  I've never known a Southern woman who had the thought, "go to he--" who didn't say it, but those aren't the type to say that anyway.  Though I did find the following video hilariously accurate:

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

I'm a born-and-raised-Midwesterner permanently relocated to small town (read: "old town") New England, and OP - give yourself a little time. Rudeness isn't exactly the word I would use (now), but there is *DEFINITELY* a culture shift. It helped me to (gradually) realize that many of the things I was brought up to do actually seem rude / slow / intentionally obnoxious up here. Specific examples:

- using "ma'am / sir" (it's an age-insult here)

-  not turning left IMMEDIATELY when the light changes (you're SUPPOSED to cut off the opposing traffic in most busy intersections, but only if you're the 1st car, not the 2nd)

- not driving on the shoulder / hesitating in the rotaries / hesitating *anywhere* in Boston

- knocking on your neighbor's door / offering to do something for them or give them something if you don't really know them (the thing in my particular town is to offer to TRADE something, not give / ask)

 

I adore living here now, and could go on and on about the wonderful aspects of New England, but . . . maybe I've just been drinking the koolaid a litlte too long. ? I notice the differences again every time my New England children visit with my Midwest parents. ?

Editing to add: I personally suspect there is more to the "old town" thing that many people realize; in my small town, the families who still live here are the families whose names are on the street signs and the cemeteries and the schools. The same names that line the war memorials in the town centers. In my midwest upbringing, NOBODY had family that had lived there >200 years; an "old" house was >100 years, not >300 years, you know? I will live in this town my entire adult life, and NEVER be "from" here . . . my CHILDREN will be, but I will not. I knew that coming in, and I'm okay with it . . . like I said, I love it here, and I love the New England ways, but yes, they can be a little different.

[moonflower]

Here's another question: if you are at a restaurant, not a fancy one but not like Cracker Barrel or whatever, does the waitress come by every 5 or 10 minutes while you're eating to ask if you need anything, how's the food, let me get you a new drink, etc.?

And if so, can you tell me if we did something to offend the waitress (who didn't appear again after depositing our food)?  Called ahead, asked about egg in the fish (different restaurant than the first one), was told no egg in fish.  Great!  Showed up, ordered 2 hamburgers and 4 fish.  Brought out hamburgers and at that time (when bringing out hamburgers) she said, sorry, there is egg in the fish after all.

Well, now we're here and two kids have food and the rest of us do not. So the only thing (literally the only thing, we have a lot of food restrictions which is why we called ahead of time) left to order is a mediterranean plate, so we order 4 of those and she brings them out.  Then nothing else, had to flag her down to pay.

 

ETA: it wasn't busy, (at all) and she was perfectly polite when we paid and were leaving.

[moonflower]

6 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

I'm a born-and-raised-Midwesterner permanently relocated to small town (read: "old town") New England, and OP - give yourself a little time. Rudeness isn't exactly the word I would use (now), but there is *DEFINITELY* a culture shift. It helped me to (gradually) realize that many of the things I was brought up to do actually seem rude / slow / intentionally obnoxious up here. Specific examples:

- using "ma'am / sir" (it's an age-insult here)

-  not turning left IMMEDIATELY when the light changes (you're SUPPOSED to cut off the opposing traffic in most busy intersections, but only if you're the 1st car, not the 2nd)

-...

 

Ack, I don't turn left immediately when the light changes.  Who knew!   If I did that in the Kansas City suburbs everyone would throw up their hands in alarm/exasperation (but no one would honk, because honking is for life/death situations)

[Katy]

1 minute ago, moonflower said:

Here's another question: if you are at a restaurant, not a fancy one but not like Cracker Barrel or whatever, does the waitress come by every 5 or 10 minutes while you're eating to ask if you need anything, how's the food, let me get you a new drink, etc.?

And if so, can you tell me if we did something to offend the waitress (who didn't appear again after depositing our food)?  Called ahead, asked about egg in the fish (different restaurant than the first one), was told no egg in fish.  Great!  Showed up, ordered 2 hamburgers and 4 fish.  Brought out hamburgers and at that time (when bringing out hamburgers) she said, sorry, there is egg in the fish after all.

Well, now we're here and two kids have food and the rest of us do not. So the only thing (literally the only thing, we have a lot of food restrictions which is why we called ahead of time) left to order is a mediterranean plate, so we order 4 of those and she brings them out.  Then nothing else, had to flag her down to pay.

 

 

I'd say having to flag her down was bad service anywhere.  She should have at the very least checked on your food 3 minutes after delivery and checked on your drinks whenever they were low. I would expect slightly better service at a Cracker Barrel (Southern) than I would at a non-chain restaurant. I would not expect her to be overly chatty or friendly.  If she wasn't clearly overworked I would assume she knew she'd be getting a bad tip due to the egg issue and had just decided to avoid your table and focus on the ones who would tip.

[PeachyDoodle]

12 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

It can be a gentle way to put someone in their place, but that's the harshest it will be.  I've never known a Southern woman who had the thought, "go to he--" who didn't say it, but those aren't the type to say that anyway.  Though I did find the following video hilariously accurate:

 

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty accurate. ?

[Lucy the Valiant]

2 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

Ack, I don't turn left immediately when the light changes.  Who knew!   If I did that in the Kansas City suburbs everyone would throw up their hands in alarm/exasperation (but no one would honk, because honking is for life/death situations)

Oh, yeah, it freaks my dad out every time I do it. Don't do it until you've seen other people doing it at that particular intersection, but if you watch, you'll see LOTS of intersections where they do it (lesser in the more rural areas, but still very common in the small towns, especially where the road bends or is busy-ish). I got honked at 2-3 times for NOT doing it and was mystified - once I realized (at particular intersections) that the cross traffic was actually hesitating for me to cut them off, I got bolder and things smoothed out. I now drive comfortably in Boston during the busiest times and get annoyed but not intimidated - the honking is really just a thing. They just honk. It's ok. 

[moonflower]

Well, maybe that explains why she was nice after we paid, as we tipped as well as we normally would (not her fault someone gave us the wrong info about the egg thing when we called).  We tipped 25%.

[forty-two]

17 minutes ago, Big Buckin' Longhorn said:

This is a very interesting thread. I’m especially surprised that southern hospitality is interpreted as fake kindness. It feels pretty real to me.

 

8 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

I was thinking the same thing! It's not fake nice. It's just friendly. 

 

Me three! 

But thinking about it, I can see how a misunderstanding could arise.  If your default is to only offer friendly behavior to people who are your actual friends - so no chit-chatting with random strangers and such - then your gut reaction when people are friendly to you is that they consider you their actual friends.  But most people aren't genuine friends with every single person they interact with.  So if you interpret friendly behavior as indicating genuine friendship, and you note that southern people (for example) are friendly to people they aren't actual friends with, then it makes sense to feel it as fake. 

But as someone who grew up in the south (and has had to train myself *into* chit-chatting), I don't think that's how most people mean it - it's that friendly is how you are kind to people.  And ime it *is* a genuine kindness, a genuine interest in people and their wellbeing.

Also, ITU the OP's assuming that a lack of offer to help is a unstated way of indicating a lack of desire to help.  On the other side of the coin, I definitely grew up with the expectation that if I'm willing to offer help, I should proactively offer it explicitly, not wait to be asked.  That's what it means to be helpful - to offer and not make people have to ask.  (I'm not great in social situations, and it's hard for me to offer - I don't know what to say or to offer or how to go about doing it at the right time, and there's lots of situations in which I wanted to help, but didn't say anything because I didn't know how to do it or what to offer.)  I don't generally assume the reverse, though - that people who *don't* offer are *un*willing, without other collaborating evidence.  I will say, when it seems like they are dodging the obvious place to offer to help multiple times, it does rather seem like they don't want to help.  But from reading here, it sounds like they might wonder why you are constantly dodging the obvious places to offer up your request ;).

[Matryoshka]

8 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Ack, I don't turn left immediately when the light changes.  Who knew!   If I did that in the Kansas City suburbs everyone would throw up their hands in alarm/exasperation (but no one would honk, because honking is for life/death situations)

Oh, yes.  If you're first in line at the light, please do turn left immediately before the oncoming traffic (and if you're second in line and the cars haven't started moving, go then as well)!  This is because the lights are often so short and if you wait for the oncoming traffic, less people can get through and it ends up backing the line waaay up and even leading to gridlock. Okay, maybe not in rural Maine. ?  But around here in eastern MA and I definitely get annoyed with people who are all 'polite' waiting and then I have to wait through 5 light cycles.  That's not polite to the people in back of you. ?

[Laurie]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

I live in the Midwest (and definitely noticed how friendly people are compared to other areas I'd lived) . DD's bf is from NY. When he visited, he was completely puzzled that DD chitchats with random people like the usher at the movie theater. "Do you know her? WHAT, you didn't know her????"

This made me laugh.  My husband is from NY, too.  When his parents came out to visit us the first time,  this happened before we even left the airport parking area.  My husband was driving, and after his brief but friendly exchange with the woman at the booth his mother asked him the same thing!  

[Matryoshka]

25 minutes ago, moonflower said:

It must read fake-nice to people for whom it is not the norm in the way that directness here reads rude/unkind to me (even though the intention in the midwest/south isn't fakeness and here the intention, I guess you are saying, is not unkindness).

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.  

I grew up here in New England, and I'm often told I can't possibly be from here, I think because I do chat with strangers much more than is normal here.  But I do also know some of the unspoken 'rules', like not chatting too much with the check-out girl (that's holding up the line!) and not talking to the toll-takers (although now it's all electronic here in MA, but we had humans till quite recently).  My across-the-street neighbors are really old-school Yankees - I've been living here 25 years and I still can barely get them to wave at me when I see them in the yard.  That I do think is over the top!  Most people aren't that extreme.  But when our fire alarm malfunctioned once and we were out in the yard, they invited us right in.  I'm choosing to think it's them, not me... ?

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, moonflower said:

 

 

The bolded: Ah, this is where I've been going wrong!  To me, "I'd have to go ask someone" reads as "I have no interest in doing this and am going to make you directly request that I do it so I can't refuse but really I'd rather not and you're wasting my time" while to them it reads "please tell me to do this if it is really required in order for you to eat here"; to me, replying "Yes, please go ask someone" would be the height of unkindness - so direct!  so demanding! - but to them it is just the next logical step in the conversation.

 

We work from home and we lived previously at 8500 feet in Colorado in a very small town, so pretty used to isolated winters, but I think maybe more people in Colorado are "from away" and so there is less sense of separation in that way?  

It drives me crazy to ask a person in a business a question and have them say some version of they don't know.  It is very common though.  I do think your 'that's cool' reply could have been interpreted by them as 'no need to go ask anyone'. I mean I don't think they should have said 'I will have to ask someone' unless they also said, 'can you hold the line while I ask?'.  So yes, you have to be very clear when given that response. 'Yes please go ask someone.' 

[lavender's green]

I grew up in an extremely friendly midwest town (so friendly it weirded out my college friends who came to visit), and when I moved to Boston as a young adult there was definitely a culture shock. Especially after I had my first baby there. Seemed like a lot of new parents were actually my mom's and MIL's age, so people made assumptions about our responsibility level and finances. We were sneered at all the time. It was weird and it took a toll. We moved as soon as we were able to. I have to say that a lot of areas in Maine and New Hampshire were friendly enough, though.

Now I live in NC and it's a lot more like the midwest. Not quite. As soon as I open my mouth I out myself as a northerner/outsider, and it can be difficult to socialize if you're not in a church (we are now but weren't at the time), but there is generally an easy-going friendliness.

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

Yes, it definitely means the latter.  I can't even fathom how one would interpret it the first way.  If someone said to me in that conversation "I'd have to ask someone", I'd say cheerily, "Thanks, that would be great!"   If they didn't say they have to ask someone, and they in fact do because they have no idea what the recipe for haddock batter is, would you just want them to disappear from the phone without advance notice, leaving you wondering what happened to them?  What would have been the response you expected from them?

I also don't at all get how telling someone you have to leave the phone to ask someone in the know to clarify a question is demanding??  Of what?

I would expect the person at the restaurant to say "I don't know. Let me go check" because it would if I'm calling, I  want the question answered. As a customer, I wouldn't want to have to continue asking them to check. It should already be clear by my phone call that I'd like to know and if the person answering the phone doesn't know, they should find out without me needing to ask them again.

That said, I've also run into this same thing in other places, too. I feel like I'm being directive when I tell them I'd like them to go check (or sometimes I'll just ask if there's someone else available who might know the answer to my question), but it doesn't change the fact I still need the info.

"That's cool" means the same thing to me as "I'm good" when I ask my kids if they want something. I have no idea if they want what I'm offering or not; "I'm good" is neither a negative or positive response, so I usually ask them if that's a yes or a no.

 

 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, wilrunner said:

"That's cool" means the same thing to me as "I'm good" when I ask my kids if they want something. I have no idea if they want what I'm offering or not; "I'm good" is neither a negative or positive response, so I usually ask them if that's a yes or a no

In this connotation, have only every heard "I'm good" as a synonym for "no, thanks, I don't want anything"

[Bluegoat]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

In this connotation, have only every heard "I'm good" as a synonym for "no, thanks, I don't want anything"

 

Yes, me too, I'd tend to interpret either to mean I shouldn't do anything.

[Crimson Wife]

I grew up in New England and prefer how you know always where you stand with people in the Northeast. People who have a problem with you will get in your face and let you know about it. Out here in CA everybody's all fake-friendly so you never know whom you can actually trust and who is just waiting for you to turn your back on them so they can stab you in it.

[lmrich]

My neighbor is New Englander. While she is not rude, she is rather direct and seems impatient about everything. I wonder if that is the kind of thing you are talking about. 

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

I am willing to accept/acknowledge that cultural norms are different. I am willing to accept that directness and a dislike for chit-chat does not mean rude. I find it interesting that I am supposed to accept those behaviors as “not rude,” but chit-chat, colloquialisms, sir and ma’am, and a slower pace are indications of “fake kindness, manipulative, and untrustworthy.”  Why can’t southern norms simply be cultural differences as well. That’s what is both cracking me up and has me scratching my head. It goes both ways. 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I find upstate to be full of city transplants who seem to be annoyed at lack of public transport and other city amenities, despite their decades of voting against funding rural america and lobbying for the MTA to tax upstaters for their benefit.

 

It's funny how despite the fact that we evidently "vote against funding rural america", NYC still pays most of the taxes in this state and gets substantially less back than we pay in. Which, okay, in taxes you'll always have some winners and losers, but it's not unreasonable to ask Albany to stop looting MTA coffers on top of everything else. There's no reason the state should even be involved in MTA funding and management.

[MEmama]

51 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.  

I grew up here in New England, and I'm often told I can't possibly be from here, I think because I do chat with strangers much more than is normal here.  But I do also know some of the unspoken 'rules', like not chatting too much with the check-out girl (that's holding up the line!) and not talking to the toll-takers (although now it's all electronic here in MA, but we had humans till quite recently).  My across-the-street neighbors are really old-school Yankees - I've been living here 25 years and I still can barely get them to wave at me when I see them in the yard.  That I do think is over the top!  Most people aren't that extreme.  But when our fire alarm malfunctioned once and we were out in the yard, they invited us right in.  I'm choosing to think it's them, not me... ?

We are friendly with one of our neighbors, but most of the others will rarely even make eye contact, even if we are both out in our gardens at the same time. But when we lost power in a big storm and were out over a week longer than the rest of the neighbourhood, we found notes on our door offering us warmth and showers and a generator and any other way they could help. We may not know each other's names, but we're neighbors, and that definitely means a lot here. To me, it's a perfect balance. :)

OP, honestly any of your scenarios could happen anywhere. Crappy restaurant service, weird landlords, bad driving...that's just normal, anywhere in the world. I hope you can stop second guessing everyone's motives and learn to like it here, because there's just so much to like. Even the "from away" thing--we had that when we lived in Colorado (" you're not another damn Californian are you?"), in Minnesota, in Oregon ("no long haired hippie Californians welcome here--I have a gun!"), in eastern Canada...It's really not so very different. And again, huge difference between rural communities and some of the bigger towns--like everywhere.

(Also, Boston and upstate NY rules do not apply in Maine. Don't be scared off). 

good luck! :)

[wintermom]

9 minutes ago, Big Buckin' Longhorn said:

I am willing to accept/acknowledge that cultural norms are different. I am willing to accept that directness and a dislike for chit-chat does not mean rude. I find it interesting that I am supposed to accept those behaviors as “not rude,” but chit-chat, colloquialisms, sir and ma’am, and a slower pace are indications of “fake kindness, manipulative, and untrustworthy.”  Why can’t southern norms simply be cultural differences as well. That’s what is both cracking me up and has me scratching my head. It goes both ways. 

I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it "fake kindness," but it does seem to be putting on a bit of a show. No one is that perky all the time with everyone. Perhaps the reason for the "show" is simply to fit into the culture. Up north the norms to fit in are less showy. 

[HomeAgain]

9 minutes ago, Big Buckin' Longhorn said:

I am willing to accept/acknowledge that cultural norms are different. I am willing to accept that directness and a dislike for chit-chat does not mean rude. I find it interesting that I am supposed to accept those behaviors as “not rude,” but chit-chat, colloquialisms, sir and ma’am, and a slower pace are indications of “fake kindness, manipulative, and untrustworthy.”  Why can’t southern norms simply be cultural differences as well. That’s what is both cracking me up and has me scratching my head. It goes both ways. 

 

 

Oh, see, I think there is a disconnect.  When I talked about the south feeling like it's fake kindness, I meant the cheery niceness to your front and the tendency to complain behind your back or seethe as they were pretending to be nice.  Bonus points for racism, bigotry, and hatefulness under the guise of being a "good Christian woman".

I'd rather take New England and all its directness.  I don't have to interpret contradictory social cues or wonder if I'm the wrong type of believer or have to read carefully to see if I'm cut out of something because I'm not "right" for their club.

 

[moonflower]

It's not a show, exactly, the chitchat and what you might call excessively polite social markers.  It's just the natural way of interacting. Or, the being nice to your front and seethe underneath - that's not, for me, exactly fake.  It's just polite.

How to explain it?  Like, when I'm in traffic, and someone does something inconvenient or incorrect, say they want to get in my lane at the last minute.  I don't honk.  I wave them in. I always let them in, unless it's unsafe to do so.  However, the entire time I'm saying to my self, "Stupid @#$@.  Why can't this $@#$#@ learn to drive?" etc.  But it would be the height of rudeness for me to express that internal dialogue in a way that the other person could interpret (say by honking or giving them the finger or whatever), and it would be fairly impolite to not let them in if I possibly can.  Here, it seems like people have the same internal dialogue, but then they also honk.  Or don't let you in.  Or both.  I don't think that the former is necessarily fake - it's just the standard social interaction.  It's not an honest reflection of how you feel, that is true.  

Or if I'm at the grocery store, about to check out, and I have something I don't want to buy after all - what you do in the midwest is you say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I've changed my mind about these bananas."  You might also say, "Can I leave them here?" but it's generally implied.  Then the cashier will say, "Sure, no problem," and put them to the side, or she might say, "No worries," or something else reassuring.  Here, she just takes the thing and doesn't respond.  (granted this has only happened once, so my experience is pretty limited as yet).  Now, truth be told, it is probably kind of annoying and not no problem to take the bananas from the customer because someone will have to return them, but the cashier reassures you anyway.  You also probably aren't that sorry about leaving the bananas (these things happen and it's a normal part of shopping on occasion, surely the store accounts for this) but the polite thing to do is either apologize or make some other verbal acknowledgement of the minor trouble you're causing.  At least this is the way it works in the Midwest.  It's not fake, exactly, even though the verbal exchange is largely formulaic and meant to reinforce that everyone is okay with this disturbance (instead of being completely sincere and original comments).

[sassenach]

32 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

I grew up in New England and prefer how you know always where you stand with people in the Northeast. People who have a problem with you will get in your face and let you know about it. Out here in CA everybody's all fake-friendly so you never know whom you can actually trust and who is just waiting for you to turn your back on them so they can stab you in it.

 

Interesting. I find CA to be pretty direct. I have a very, very hard time being friends with southerners because my experience is that they will not say a word about how they really feel about anything. The lack of honest intimacy is so embedded, I've never figured out how to get past it.

 

[sassenach]

1 minute ago, moonflower said:

It's not a show, exactly, the chitchat and what you might call excessively polite social markers.  It's just the natural way of interacting. Or, the being nice to your front and seethe underneath - that's not, for me, exactly fake.  It's just polite.

How to explain it?  Like, when I'm in traffic, and someone does something inconvenient or incorrect, say they want to get in my lane at the last minute.  I don't honk.  I wave them in. I always let them in, unless it's unsafe to do so.  However, the entire time I'm saying to my self, "Stupid @#$@.  Why can't this $@#$#@ learn to drive?" etc.  But it would be the height of rudeness for me to express that internal dialogue in a way that the other person could interpret (say by honking or giving them the finger or whatever), and it would be fairly impolite to not let them in if I possibly can.  Here, it seems like people have the same internal dialogue, but then they also honk.  Or don't let you in.  Or both.  I don't think that the former is necessarily fake - it's just the standard social interaction.  It's not an honest reflection of how you feel, that is true.  

Or if I'm at the grocery store, about to check out, and I have something I don't want to buy after all - what you do in the midwest is you say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I've changed my mind about these bananas."  You might also say, "Can I leave them here?" but it's generally implied.  Then the cashier will say, "Sure, no problem," and put them to the side, or she might say, "No worries," or something else reassuring.  Here, she just takes the thing and doesn't respond.  (granted this has only happened once, so my experience is pretty limited as yet).  Now, truth be told, it is probably kind of annoying and not no problem to take the bananas from the customer because someone will have to return them, but the cashier reassures you anyway.  You also probably aren't that sorry about leaving the bananas (these things happen and it's a normal part of shopping on occasion, surely the store accounts for this) but the polite thing to do is either apologize or make some other verbal acknowledgement of the minor trouble you're causing.  At least this is the way it works in the Midwest.  It's not fake, exactly, even though the verbal exchange is largely formulaic and meant to reinforce that everyone is okay with this disturbance (instead of being completely sincere and original comments).

 

Honking is straight-up regional and you're just going to have to desensitize to it. I think the social interactions are harder to adjust to and I totally get why you're  struggling.

[moonflower]

For me the honking is a social interaction.  I feel like they are saying, "You are a terrible driver!  You have made a major error!" all the time!  I will desensitize to it I imagine ?  

[Crimson Wife]

3 minutes ago, moonflower said:

It's not a show, exactly, the chitchat and what you might call excessively polite social markers.  It's just the natural way of interacting. Or, the being nice to your front and seethe underneath - that's not, for me, exactly fake.  It's just polite.

The chit-chat,  sir/ma'am, etc. isn't the problem. The bolded is. I'd rather you be rude than fake. If you're rude, I can deal with that. But don't be all nicey-nicey to my face when underneath you're plotting against me.

[moonflower]

Interestingly, I had to explain to DH once long ago about the culture of this board - that often people "like" every post in a thread even if they don't particularly like it or agree with it, if it is a thread they started, as a way of showing appreciation for posting.

DH thought that was crazy.  Why like a post you disagree with?  But I've become accustomed to it.

[lavender's green]

I shared my experience in Boston above, but I forgot to add that I did know some truly kind, friendly, generous people. On an individual level, the friendliness may be there, and that counts for a lot.

[sassenach]

2 minutes ago, moonflower said:

For me the honking is a social interaction.  I feel like they are saying, "You are a terrible driver!  You have made a major error!" all the time!  I will desensitize to it I imagine ?  

I grew up driving in LA, so it never even occurs to me to care what another driver thinks of me. ?

[Bluegoat]

18 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Oh, see, I think there is a disconnect.  When I talked about the south feeling like it's fake kindness, I meant the cheery niceness to your front and the tendency to complain behind your back or seethe as they were pretending to be nice.  Bonus points for racism, bigotry, and hatefulness under the guise of being a "good Christian woman".

I'd rather take New England and all its directness.  I don't have to interpret contradictory social cues or wonder if I'm the wrong type of believer or have to read carefully to see if I'm cut out of something because I'm not "right" for their club.

 

 

I think most of these kinds of things work both ways.  To an extent local culture does shape people's personalities as well as just the norms of interaction, but I'd say you pretty much get similar levels of people who are kind, sincere, etc.  The different social norms in themselves are just customs.  And not so nice people can hide behind customs, whether it is fake niceness and using etiquette as a weapon, or someone being rude and unkind who claims they are just being a direct talker, or someone who doesn't care about others who makes the excuse of cultural reticence and independence.

[moonflower]

1 minute ago, Crimson Wife said:

The chit-chat,  sir/ma'am, etc. isn't the problem. The bolded is. I'd rather you be rude than fake. If you're rude, I can deal with that. But don't be all nicey-nicey to my face when underneath you're plotting against me.

 

Well, if I were plotting against you, I agree that it would be weird for me to be nice to you at the same time.  But if you've just inconvenienced me, or I'm irritated by something you're doing, the polite thing to do (in my experience, obviously not everywhere) is to be nice anyway, even if I feel otherwise.

[sassenach]

3 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Interestingly, I had to explain to DH once long ago about the culture of this board - that often people "like" every post in a thread even if they don't particularly like it or agree with it, if it is a thread they started, as a way of showing appreciation for posting.

DH thought that was crazy.  Why like a post you disagree with?  But I've become accustomed to it.

LOL, I don’t do that. 

[moonflower]

I also wonder sometimes about different attitudes toward outsiders.  In Colorado, no one particularly minded that I was not from there (most people aren't), as long as I made it clear that I both was not from California and agreed that Californian values were ruining the state, etc.  In Missouri, if you're from just about anywhere people will think it is cool, except maybe Kansas.  Here, they are not impressed.  when we moved to NZ, people there were very kind about my being an American, although they thought the accent was funny and had some reasonably unkind stereotypes associated with Americans that they liked to make fun of - but they were nice about it.  They were generally less impressed with Asian immigrants, though, and sometimes actually hostile.

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

Well, if I were plotting against you, I agree that it would be weird for me to be nice to you at the same time.  But if you've just inconvenienced me, or I'm irritated by something you're doing, the polite thing to do (in my experience, obviously not everywhere) is to be nice anyway, even if I feel otherwise.

LOL, but around here, it's often used as a teaching opportunity.  There are rules for the bike/pedestrian trails about how to pass and which side to stay on and whatnot.  When someone inconveniences everyone else because they don't know the rules, those around them will definitely TEACH them what's right! ?  If they didn't, it would just create chaos and injuries in a more longterm fashion.

[forty-two]

1 minute ago, moonflower said:

It's not a show, exactly, the chitchat and what you might call excessively polite social markers.  It's just the natural way of interacting. Or, the being nice to your front and seethe underneath - that's not, for me, exactly fake.  It's just polite.
<snip>
It's not fake, exactly, even though the verbal exchange is largely formulaic and meant to reinforce that everyone is okay with this disturbance (instead of being completely sincere and original comments).

I think of the polite response as the way I *ought* to feel about the situation - I ought to feel mild regret about causing others mild trouble, and I ought to reassure those causing me minor trouble that it is indeed minor and really no big deal in the scheme of things.  And wrt annoying drivers, I ought to be forebearing and overlook minor gaffes and other annoyances without getting upset - it's not worth a stronger reaction.

Now, I don't always feel as I ought.  So sometimes I give the polite response while not feeling it.  But when I give the polite, expected response even when I don't feel it, it's not just that I'm doing "what I ought to do" on the outside - I'm acknowledging that I *should* be feeling it on the inside.  My inward and outward behavior *ought* to match - but if they can't match, than at least I'm not taking out my feelings on others, but am keeping it to myself.  And not only that, but in being polite on the outside, it actually *helps* me calm down and feel the matching inward response.

So for me it's not being fake when it happens - I am genuinely trying to be on the inside as I appear on the outside, even if I fail on occasion - it's always real, even when I'm having to grit my teeth to do it.  But 95% of the time, I do indeed feel the polite response as I give it.

[moonflower]

I wonder how we transmit that kind of information in the Midwest.  I guess we just sort of hope someone takes them aside personally at some point and says, "I don't know if you knew, and it is such a weird way that we do it here, but if you turn left before the oncoming line of cars passes through at a green light people will get so nervous!" 

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, forty-two said:

I think of the polite response as the way I *ought* to feel about the situation - I ought to feel mild regret about causing others mild trouble, and I ought to reassure those causing me minor trouble that it is indeed minor and really no big deal in the scheme of things.  And wrt annoying drivers, I ought to be forebearing and overlook minor gaffes and other annoyances without getting upset - it's not worth a stronger reaction.

Now, I don't always feel as I ought.  So sometimes I give the polite response while not feeling it.  But when I give the polite, expected response even when I don't feel it, it's not just that I'm doing "what I ought to do" on the outside - I'm acknowledging that I *should* be feeling it on the inside.  My inward and outward behavior *ought* to match - but if they can't match, than at least I'm not taking out my feelings on others, but am keeping it to myself.  And not only that, but in being polite on the outside, it actually *helps* me calm down and feel the matching inward response.

So for me it's not being fake when it happens - I am genuinely trying to be on the inside as I appear on the outside, even if I fail on occasion - it's always real, even when I'm having to grit my teeth to do it.  But 95% of the time, I do indeed feel the polite response as I give it.

This actually makes sense.  It seems different when broken down this way, but having been on the other side I can say that I still find it uncomfortable and.....dishonest is too strong a word.  Not genuine would be better, but the contradictory body language and verbal language make it hard to trust what is being said.

[moonflower]

5 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

LOL, but around here, it's often used as a teaching opportunity.  There are rules for the bike/pedestrian trails about how to pass and which side to stay on and whatnot.  When someone inconveniences everyone else because they don't know the rules, those around them will definitely TEACH them what's right! ?  If they didn't, it would just create chaos and injuries in a more longterm fashion.

 

When we moved to Colorado Springs, there was a 4 way stop that was pretty heavily trafficked during rush hour. The way you are supposed to navigate the stop is that you pay close attention coming up to the stop, then you go as soon as it is your turn - not waiting for the other people to stop or to complete their turns, but just go as soon as you're not going to run into anyone.  If in doubt, go early.  This keeps it moving fast.

When we first got there, I treated it like a suburban Midwest 4-way stop; that is to say, you wait until everyone is stopped, then sort of make eye contact, then hesitate a bit, then go.  I might be exaggerating but not much.

No one ever honked, but it was obvious to me pretty quickly that I was doing it wrong in Colorado Springs.  If I waited as long as I was used to waiting, people would just start going out of turn (skipping me) and I'd realize I'd waited through like 3 cycles of cars and there was a line behind me.  I caught on within a week or so that I was supposed to jump the gun, and everything was smooth from there.

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

Also I always pass on the right when someone is turning left 

And it makes so much more sense. What irritates me are drivers who go ALLL the way to the right side of the street before making a WIIIIIDE left turn. Get over to the left and let straight traffic pass on the right. Why hold everybody up?

[gardenmom5]

Some really are "that rude".  (Not all).  My girls attended college in upstate ny.

I know one new yorker, who lives here (pnw), and has been called on it numerous times. (By her bosses, by others in leadership roles with her)

 

 She offends everyone and their dog, and claims "this is how new yorkers are.  Deal with it.".  Then proceeds to demand she be allowed to continue being 'herself'  ( Uber abrasive), and we're offending her by holding her accountable for how she treats others.

 

She can also be very quick to take offense, and make demands of others.

[moonflower]

I like to pass on the right when someone is turning left too, and if there's room I don't know that this is entirely uncommon in the midwest.  It would be an uncommon expectation, though (so if I didn't try to squeeze through on the right and you came right up behind me and looked exasperated or honked, that would be strange to me).

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, moonflower said:

I also wonder sometimes about different attitudes toward outsiders.  In Colorado, no one particularly minded that I was not from there (most people aren't), as long as I made it clear that I both was not from California and agreed that Californian values were ruining the state, etc.  In Missouri, if you're from just about anywhere people will think it is cool, except maybe Kansas.  Here, they are not impressed.  when we moved to NZ, people there were very kind about my being an American, although they thought the accent was funny and had some reasonably unkind stereotypes associated with Americans that they liked to make fun of - but they were nice about it.  They were generally less impressed with Asian immigrants, though, and sometimes actually hostile.

Again, in the Midcoast and southern parts of the state, no one will care because there are so many people not from here. If you are Downeast or in the County or up near Calais or something, yeah, it's going to be different. People in fishing communities, for example, are understandably wary of people from elsewhere who move in with tons of money, expect a different lifestyle than the one that can be found there and work to change it, all while restricting beach access and driving up property rates to untenable heights. I'm not saying that's YOU, but it is common and its forcing changes that the locals don't want. 

However, in Camden or Freeport or somewhere, it's a totally different culture and I suspect you'll have no trouble fitting in. 

I do have to say I'm very surprised that you have found Mainers to be unfriendly, though. I have not experienced anything like what you describe in all the years we've lived here (I have experienced it elsewhere, however). 

Sorry to hear it isn't what you'd hoped. :(

[Kanin]

I grew up in Maine, went on to Boston, Colorado and PA, and now I”m going back to mid coast Maine in a month. I can’t wait!!’

Now I’m wondering if I’ve evolved during my  7 years in Colorado to be chatty, and I won’t fit in in the Northeast anymore! I have had SO many social interactions go wrong in PA... like the first time I went to the library to get a library card. I was so ready to be part of a small-town community and just go all in. “Hi, I just moved here and I can’t wait to get a library card! This is a beautiful library!” I said to the librarian. She just looked at me without smiling and said, “Did you bring proof of residency?”

I feel like everyone in Maine is perfectly friendly, but I guess maybe they don’t see the point of doing small talk with strangers, like someone said above. When I lived in Boston, everyone pretty much went out of their way to NEVER look at anyone else on the subway, on the sidewalk, etc. 

You’ll definitely find the chatty Newenglanders eventually. It just takes time ?

Oh, and about the swimming thing... YES! In this area of PA, there’s hardly any water... so no free swimming. There are pools, but they’re kind of expensive, and crowded. I can’t wait to just have (nearly) free access to any water I can find!

 

[BarbecueMom]

I think coming from Missouri, everything is going to seem culturally odd because we are so, so... average.  We’re just okay drivers, we do a little small talk but not much, we’re polite but not overly familiar.  We don’t use flowery language but we aren’t blunt either.  We aren’t slow and easy going, but we aren’t rushed and impatient.  We have traffic, but not *traffic*, you know?

If you combined all of the good/bad social behaviors from around the country and muted them to some middle-of-the-road way of interacting, you’d fit right in here.  Our state motto should be, “Meh, sure, I guess.”

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

50 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it "fake kindness," but it does seem to be putting on a bit of a show. No one is that perky all the time with everyone. Perhaps the reason for the "show" is simply to fit into the culture. Up north the norms to fit in are less showy. 

 

Well, we do tend to enjoy a bit of pomp and circumstance down here, LOL. 

 

 

[moonflower]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Again, in the Midcoast and southern parts of the state, no one will care because there are so many people not from here. If you are Downeast or in the County or up near Calais or something, yeah, it's going to be different. People in fishing communities, for example, are understandably wary of people from elsewhere who move in with tons of money, expect a different lifestyle than the one that can be found there and work to change it, all while restricting beach access and driving up property rates to untenable heights. I'm not saying that's YOU, but it is common and its forcing changes that the locals don't want. 

However, in Camden or Freeport or somewhere, it's a totally different culture and I suspect you'll have no trouble fitting in. 

I do have to say I'm very surprised that you have found Mainers to be unfriendly, though. I have not experienced anything like what you describe in all the years we've lived here (I have experienced it elsewhere, however). 

Sorry to hear it isn't what you'd hoped. ?

 

To be fair, so far we've only been in Bangor and points farther east (and down-coast from Bangor - not sure how you're supposed to say that, but like towards Bar Harbor on the coast and along the Penobscot).  Winterport, etc.  

 

[Liz CA]

3 hours ago, moonflower said:

Or you call them on the phone to ask about whether their fried fish has egg, and you say, "Hi, I'm calling about your fried Haddock.  Is there egg in the batter?" And they say, "We only have the fried Haddock on Tuesdays." And you say, "That's cool, we could wait until then.  But does it have eggs?" And they say, "I'd have to go ask someone." And you say, "Okay, that's cool." And they just wait on the line, and you realize at that point that something has gone wrong in the conversation but you're not sure what.

Or you call for a dentist's appointment and say, "Hi, I'm a new patient in the area.  I'm looking for a cleaning and maybe to have a cavity filled." And they say, "You need an intake appointment first." and you say, "Sure, that sounds good.  When is your first available appointment?" And they say, "There's a lot of paperwork to do at the first appointment so you need to be 15 minutes early." And you say, "Okay.  when would the appointment be?" And they say, "No, there's a lot of paperwork.  We'd need (x form) and (y form)."  And you say, "Sure, that works.  Can you get me in in the next couple of weeks?" And they say, "I'd have to go check the appointment calendar, but first let me finish telling you that we need z form and then you'll have to have the intake appointment before any cleaning or x-rays and the x-rays are charged separately and (etc)."  All of which is said in an exasperated tone of voice, at this point.

 

 

This seems odd - and I should just say that I have never lived in the NE and now will be extra cautious :) - but your questions sound straight forward to me. It would drive me around the bend if I could not get a straight answer to a straight forward question. I am not a big chatterer but I have learned to just grin and reply with something when I get a "small-talker" at the checkout or wherever.