The pain of natural consequences

[Ginevra]

DS18 is in his room, supposedly working on 40 notecards for a research paper due (of course!) tomorrow. I believe he has fallen asleep, though. He was out late last night and he had work early this morning, so being sleepy is no surprise, but I am silently fuming because I feel certain he did not just learn Friday that he will need the notecards Monday. 

Part of me wants to wake him up, but...he is 18. He will soon be in college where I will neither know about the notecards nor wake him up to make sure he does them. So I think I’m going to let him sleep and figure out how to finish his notecards himself. 

Just curious as to the Hive Parenting Opinion. :) 

[teachermom2834]

If it is a pattern and he needs a lesson I would let him sleep. If this is a one time thing and you know he will be upset to have fallen asleep and put himself in a bind then I would gently nudge him and ask if he wants to get up. But I wouldn't force the issue.

I have a soon to be 18yo who will be away at college next year too. I have debated similar scenarios from time to time and I have played it both ways. 

[nixpix5]

I absolutely would let him sleep. You are right in thinking it is better to have the consequences when it is cheaper for him...i.e. while still at home and not worth a large portion of a college class grade.

Getting in a few last natural consequences before college is good. Now I say that with the belief he will be legitimately bothered by either rushing them or not getting them in. If he won't mind then the consequence might not have the effect. 

[EKS]

If it is for an outside course, and there has been a pattern of this sort of thing, then I'd let him sleep.

If it is for a homeschool course that you are facilitating, I'd just adjust the due date for the notecards, but not the due date for the final paper.  I've never had any luck enforcing due dates by just giving my kids a zero.  It works much better to have them do whatever it is before they can do what they want to do (like use the car).  ETA: This is a place where the parent hat and the homeschool teacher hat overlap.

(And just as an aside, I didn't realize that anyone used notecards anymore for research papers.)  

[Guest]

Yeah, it’s not for hs. He is at a B&M school now, so I have no leeway on due dates. 

He will be legitimately mad at himself for not organizing better earlier, so it is truly a consequence. He will most likely strive to complete them, but he will probably be up late and kicking himself for his poor planning. 

[Bambam]

I agree with the idea that if this is habitual, you leave the situation alone. He is almost an adult, and you should not treat him like a child (which, IMO, waking him would be).

If it is not habitual, and he is just in a tight place this one time but he is usually responsible, I'd gently wake him and ask if he needs to get up. But that is it. 

If the due date was for my homeschool, I would not reschedule it. I used to do that, but I stopped when I realized that no one else would ever do this for them. They need to learn to pay attention to due dates and plan around those and any other activities.

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I wouldn't wake my kid for that. I would let them feel the pain of consequences.

[Momto6inIN]

I wouldn't wake him up either, but oh boy would it be hard. Good luck sticking to your guns!

[SKL]

It would depend on how he had discussed it with me earlier.  For example, if my kid had been telling me how important it was for her to spend 4 hours on xyz today because it is due tomorrow, and I knew she had no intention of blowing it off but legitimately "fell" asleep without meaning to, I might go in there and just ask her - are you intending to sleep and do you have an alarm set so you can get up in time to finish?  In other words, if I felt she was trying and really cared, I would help out rather than watch disaster strike.  I'd do the same if it was a spouse or work partner or anyone else I cared about.

But if she was clearly not sufficiently engaged and/or preferred for me not to be involved in that aspect of her life, I'd probably let her sleep.

This assumes the note cards aren't a make-or-break for her passing or doing reasonably well in her course.  Is something really big riding on it?  Like a scholarship or college acceptance?  If so, that would also affect my decision.

[Guest]

No. It’s a grade for English, and it’s not as though DS rides a long with a generous grade cushion to make up for mistakes. So it certainly does behoove him to complete it, even if they are somewhat shoddy at present. 

[Pawz4me]

I'd let him sleep.

[sassenach]

I'd let him sleep, but don't be surprised if he pulls off an A anyways. That's what my kid does. Then the natural consequence becomes a natural reinforcement of bad habits. <insert bang head against a wall emoji>

[Annie G]

If my kid was holed up in his room working on a project that he KNEW he put off until the last minute, I wouldn’t go check on him because I probably wouldn’t be able to keep myself from commenting on the procrastination. So I wouldn’t know he was asleep.  But if I did know, I’d let him sleep. He’s 18, so maybe he finished and is napping. Or maybe he’s so tired that he opted to nap so he’ll be alert enough to work on the project tonight. Either way, not necessary for me to get involved. 

[Catwoman]

I’ll be the lone dissenter. I would absolutely wake him up. 

[Lynn in al]

Id probably give a "hey, don't you need to be getting school work done?" Then leave it at that.  If he gets up or not his choice.  I always lost track of time during Sunday afternoon naps.  You know when you wake up and it takes a while to figure out if it's 6 A or 6P.

[Guest]

Well, he woke up of his own accord before dinner. I went to his room to tell him dinner would soon be ready and he was working on the notecards. He doesn’t have a great many completed yet, though. 

[Baile]

I'd wake him up. I don't think people always need to experience consequences of their mistakes to learn from them. For some people, just knowing that they fell asleep and could have failed the assignment would make them remember to drink a cup of coffee next time they're tired when they start an assignment. (Or start the assignment earlier, which is less likely to be the lesson learned, whether the consequence occurs or not.)

[SereneHome]

My kids are so much younger and since I learned a lot time go  - when it comes to parenting, don't have preconceived notions - I don't know what I would do as  a parent.

On a flip side of things - I used to be your son.  I didn't like school and always waited until the last second to do my projects, papers, assignments.  I didn't well in college when I was getting my BS.  I did phenomenal at work.  I never missed due dates or assignments. I build a really great resume and a career.  I did really well in grad school.  I am 10000% sure that my mom "waking me up" one time or ten times wouldn't have made ANY difference back then.

All this to say - *I* think whatever you decide to do will probably have very little effect for him learning or not learning his lesson.  So, go have some tea or vine and enjoy your night :)

 

[umsami]

I'd like to think I'd let him sleep, but I'd probably wake him.  I'm a wimp.

[nixpix5]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Yeah, it’s not for hs. He is at a B&M school now, so I have no leeway on due dates. 

He will be legitimately mad at himself for not organizing better earlier, so it is truly a consequence. He will most likely strive to complete them, but he will probably be up late and kicking himself for his poor planning. 

This right here is the ideal heart to have for the most bang for your buck consequences. He will have a busy social life and many temptations in college so this is a good first step in learning how to manage time around those things. 

[Liz CA]

2 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

I absolutely would let him sleep. You are right in thinking it is better to have the consequences when it is cheaper for him...i.e. while still at home and not worth a large portion of a college class grade.

Getting in a few last natural consequences before college is good. Now I say that with the belief he will be legitimately bothered by either rushing them or not getting them in. If he won't mind then the consequence might not have the effect. 

 

This. And I am speaking from experience as ds is now 26. This is a good but inexpensive lesson to learn. I would commiserate if he complains but not take any blame for not waking him should he be inclined to look for someone on whom to heap blame. :)

[ktgrok]

Meh, I've woken my husband when he fell asleep working. I've woken a roommate in a similar situation. So I'd probably wake him. But it would depend.

[hornblower]

I would wake up the person, make a pot of coffee or grab a bottle of coke, + a plate of snacks,  & sit with the person until they got started.   I'd do that for a child or an adult who I knew had something they needed to work on or finish.  I wouldn't care if I thought they had managed their time properly, planned it right or were blowing stuff off. It would be irrelevant. This needs to be done, how we got here doesn't matter right now, we can have a re-hash of that at a later time; now, just get this done.  I'd do this for friends, spouses, roommates, kids...


 

[happi duck]

I'd be sad if I crashed and another adult in my house let me sleep so I'd learn my lesson.

[SanDiegoMom]

Been there with my super unorganized wait til the last min daughter. I always woke her up. If I could -- usually she didn't start things until 10 at night and I was already going to bed.  Starting before dinner is definitely over achieving, lol. 

 

She had a very rough time working towards organization throughout high school but I knew her executive functioning was pretty low so I was always willing to give her a hand. She seems to have figured it out at college- mostly due to maturity and not having school 30 hours a week. Fewer class hours has helped her organize her time more efficiently even accounting for not having a parent there. 

But every path is different for every kid! 

[katilac]

13 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, he woke up of his own accord before dinner. I went to his room to tell him dinner would soon be ready and he was working on the notecards. He doesn’t have a great many completed yet, though. 

 

He was sleeping in the afternoon? I would have just assumed he was taking a nap and would do the cards later. My teens nap in the afternoon and work at night all the time. It would never occur to me that they might sleep through the night, I'd be pretty worried if they did, lol. 

Also, 40 physical notecards?  That's a blast from the past! 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

 

He was sleeping in the afternoon? I would have just assumed he was taking a nap and would do the cards later. My teens nap in the afternoon and work at night all the time. It would never occur to me that they might sleep through the night, I'd be pretty worried if they did, lol. 

Also, 40 physical notecards?  That's a blast from the past! 

Yes, afternoon to early evening. It was not that I thought he would sleep from afternoon straight through the night. It was that he had left a large amount of work to do until late afternoon the last day and then fell asleep, leaving the work to even later. 

Also, I have to ask, since it’s been brought up twice now: what do “kids these days” have for pulling out their quotes and info if not notecards? I know I’m showing my old schoolishness, but I still find notecards very helpful for tracking and then organizing a research paper. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Sometimes the stress and the knowledge that there will not be sleep is the natural consequence.  I would wake him.  He may prioritize sleep and then suffer the consequences.  Or he may rise to the occasion.  As an adult who struggles with time management, I appreciate when people give me gentle reminders or provide other supports when I have something I need to get done.  Like last night, when dh made some healthy snacks for me knowing I would be up late doing taxes, something I dread.  It took me a while to find my groove.  

ETA: Oh and I had parents who would never have helped me.  They believed in natural consequences and lots of scolding.  Neither made a difference in my organizational abilities.  I still struggled with time management in college, but got the job done.  As an adult, I struggle, but get the job done.  At work, I rose to the occasion, but there were often build-in supports of a team to help motivate me.  

[Mimm]

It's so difficult parenting this age. I'm so not prepared. :)

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

 Also, I have to ask, since it’s been brought up twice now: what do “kids these days” have for pulling out their quotes and info if not notecards? I know I’m showing my old schoolishness, but I still find notecards very helpful for tracking and then organizing a research paper. 

 

 

They use digital notecards, which you can create/edit in either a specialty app or things like Evernote, Google Slides, spreadsheets, whatever their preference. You can lay them out, rearrange them, shuffle them for new ideas, just about anything you can do with physical cards. 

My kids do often write notes out by hand from a lecture or when studying, I personally think it's better than typing notes for most people (and research seems to bear that out). But I think it's overly time-consuming with little benefit for research cards - it is a lot of writing. With no backup. 

If a student really benefits from handling and rearranging physical cards, they might consider having detailed digital cards and brief physical cards. 

[katilac]

 

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Yes, afternoon to early evening. It was not that I thought he would sleep from afternoon straight through the night. It was that he had left a large amount of work to do until late afternoon the last day and then fell asleep, leaving the work to even later. 

 

 

Both of my kids would work more quickly and efficiently after taking the nap, rather than pushing through the tiredness earlier in the day. I think a few hours is a reasonable amount of time to get the cards done, but the problem would be if he got sick, his internet went out and he didn't have an alternative - there can always be something that prevents you from doing the last-minute thing! You can tell him that my kids had a professor who would not accept any excuse for late work if you didn't have some work-in-progress to show, because students are supposed to assume something will go wrong the day before an assignment is due, lol. If the assignment was nearly done, just a bit rough around the edges, he might let you polish it before grading, but you had to submit what you had on time for his judgment. 

Did he get them done? 

[Mom22ns]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Also, I have to ask, since it’s been brought up twice now: what do “kids these days” have for pulling out their quotes and info if not notecards? I know I’m showing my old schoolishness, but I still find notecards very helpful for tracking and then organizing a research paper. 

I don't know how kids do it, but I have never been a fan of notecards. I made them once or twice when a teacher required it, but didn't use them even after making them. My process looks more like highlighting or stickynoting resources and creating a "resource" document where I put in quotes or information from sources I want organized by source. I hate flipping through note cards and always have. I just finished the rough draft of a 13 page paper with about 20 sources - notecard free!

Debbie

[Catwoman]

17 minutes ago, Mom22ns said:

I don't know how kids do it, but I have never been a fan of notecards. I made them once or twice when a teacher required it, but didn't use them even after making them. My process looks more like highlighting or stickynoting resources and creating a "resource" document where I put in quotes or information from sources I want organized by source. I hate flipping through note cards and always have. I just finished the rough draft of a 13 page paper with about 20 sources - notecard free!

Debbie

I’m with you, Debbie — I have never used notecards unless I had to show them to the teacher, and even then, I would do them after I wrote the paper just so I would have something to hand in. I know many people use them very successfully, but I find notecards to be incredibly confusing and for me, they are a complete waste of time. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

 

They use digital notecards, which you can create/edit in either a specialty app or things like Evernote, Google Slides, spreadsheets, whatever their preference. You can lay them out, rearrange them, shuffle them for new ideas, just about anything you can do with physical cards. 

My kids do often write notes out by hand from a lecture or when studying, I personally think it's better than typing notes for most people (and research seems to bear that out). But I think it's overly time-consuming with little benefit for research cards - it is a lot of writing. With no backup. 

If a student really benefits from handling and rearranging physical cards, they might consider having detailed digital cards and brief physical cards. 

But for handing them in to a teacher for a grade? I guess they could be turned in digitally, but I guess the teacher wants to see physical cards? 

AFAIK, he completed them. I did not see him before school this morning. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

Sometimes the stress and the knowledge that there will not be sleep is the natural consequence.  I would wake him.  He may prioritize sleep and then suffer the consequences.  Or he may rise to the occasion.  As an adult who struggles with time management, I appreciate when people give me gentle reminders or provide other supports when I have something I need to get done.  Like last night, when dh made some healthy snacks for me knowing I would be up late doing taxes, something I dread.  It took me a while to find my groove.  

ETA: Oh and I had parents who would never have helped me.  They believed in natural consequences and lots of scolding.  Neither made a difference in my organizational abilities.  I still struggled with time management in college, but got the job done.  As an adult, I struggle, but get the job done.  At work, I rose to the occasion, but there were often build-in supports of a team to help motivate me.  

I do think it is good to help and offer support of our kids. My own parents offered practically no guidance on anything from my early teens on and I was not better off for it. I actually picked up a book he had on hold at the library because he was at work and I was going right by for other son’s baseball game. But he located the book himself and requested it. 

But! I am all too aware that he will be substantially outside the nest just a half-year from now, at least for the better part of his time. When that happens, mom will not be there to make sure he gets his notecards done. I will not even know he has notecards due. And I know there won’t be a college professor who will say, “oh you worked late this weekend and you also had LAX practice? Oh, okay; we’ll just give you an extra week.” I want to help him plan ahead and manage his time by seeing how it goes when he puts things off. 

There are things he is fully responsible for himself, and things where I still give him significant help. (I.e.; I don’t do his laundry anymore. But I do pack his lunch for school most days.) I think it’s a balance. And, God knows, I’m probably not doing everything right. But I try to be doing the right thing at least 80/20. So, I hope for at least that! 

[HS Mom in NC]

Let's remember that this is an 18 year old, not a younger kid needing instruction, guidance and supervision from parent and he's decided to put if off to the last minute.  He's just about to start college and needs to be very aware of what happens when you do that.

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Let's remember that this is an 18 year old, not a younger kid needing instruction, guidance and supervision from parent and he's decided to put if off to the last minute.  He's just about to start college and needs to be very aware of what happens when you do that.

I generally think the whole “let your kid suffer the natural consequences” thing is mean, because if I can help my kid avoid a problem, I see no reason to make him suffer. Maybe your kids are different, but my son learns more from kindness and concern than he would from knowing that his own mother intentionally set him up to fail. If my son fell asleep and risked missing a deadline, I see no reason not to wake him up, and I would hope he would do the same for me.

If your dh dozed off while he was working on a last-minute project, you would probably wake him, wouldn’t you? Or would you let him suffer the natural consequences of having waited until the last minute to get his work done? If you dozed off in the middle of something important and no one bothered to wake you, even though they knew you needed to get the work finished, wouldn’t that bother you? Wouldn’t it kind of hurt your feelings that no one woke you — and worse yet, that they had intentionally chosen not to wake you so you would suffer the consequences?

I don’t think of this as having anything to do with a person’s age. I see waking someone who needs to finish a project as being a common courtesy that I would extend to anyone, no matter what their age. 

My dh and I weren’t raised with a “tough love” approach, and we seem to have turned out just fine. Maybe with some people the “suffer the natural consequences” thing works well, but it definitely wouldn’t work in our home.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I generally think the whole “let your kid suffer the natural consequences” thing is mean, because if I can help my kid avoid a problem, I see no reason to make him suffer. Maybe your kids are different, but my son learns more from kindness and concern than he would from knowing that his own mother intentionally set him up to fail. If my son fell asleep and risked missing a deadline, I see no reason not to wake him up, and I would hope he would do the same for me.

If your dh dozed off while he was working on a last-minute project, you would probably wake him, wouldn’t you? Or would you let him suffer the natural consequences of having waited until the last minute to get his work done? If you dozed off in the middle of something important and no one bothered to wake you, even though they knew you needed to get the work finished, wouldn’t that bother you? Wouldn’t it kind of hurt your feelings that no one woke you — and worse yet, that they had intentionally chosen not to wake you so you would suffer the consequences?

I don’t think of this as having anything to do with a person’s age. I see waking someone who needs to finish a project as being a common courtesy that I would extend to anyone, no matter what their age. 

My dh and I weren’t raised with a “tough love” approach, and we seem to have turned out just fine. Maybe with some people the “suffer the natural consequences” thing works well, but it definitely wouldn’t work in our home.

I think making a habit of rescuing a child from natural consequences is cruel.  Yes, I do know people who have had parents rescue them time and again including in their teens (a cousin, a friend of the family, a former co-worker) who really do think there shouldn't be consequences for their actions.  They really do expect to be excused by someone or they think it's someone else's job to make life comfortable for them when they really were being lazy or procrastinating for no good reason.  They have ongoing relationship conflicts because of their unrealistic expectations of those around them.  And yes, my kids learn it much faster if they feel the natural consequences.

No, choosing to allow the natural consequences to come without intervening is absolutely not "setting your kid up to fail." I think your choice of words there indicates the kind of distorted reality I'm specifically trying to avoid in my kids. People set themselves up to fail by choosing to wait to the last minute, and expecting others to see that they never have to deal with the natural reality that comes from their own choices.  Like I said above, it creates problems in relationships later on because their reality has been distorted. 

No one is talking about someone who has been diligently working all along and dozed off under all the hard work. Yes, in that situation, even natural consequences people who likely intervene and wake the person up.  You did read the original post, right?  These answers are in context of someone on the verge of college choosing to wait to the last minute to get to work on is assignment.   
My husband is a business owner and programmer with experience in high level security projects: space station, nuclear arsenal, military aircraft, payment kiosks, etc.  People in that field who wait to the last minute should definitely face the natural consequences.  As a consultant right now he's the guy who companies hire to come in and evaluate their problems and make recommendations.  There are several people he has had to recommend employers fire (they did) because, in addition to other things, they're not diligent people working hard to meet deadlines, including last minute types who got the ax because of it.  My husband doesn't fall asleep working, he just works, even as much as 20 hour days on rare occasions, either on site or in his home office where he isn't to be disturbed because of all his voice activated software, video conference calls, and the incredibly high level of concentration required to write and manage some of the most complex software there is.  He sometimes sneaks in a nap but he sets an alarm so he get some sleep, recharge, and start fresh.  No, he doesn't need me to monitor him and see that he's up when he needs to be.

[Angie in VA]

I would let him sleep and deal w/ the consequences. 

[DawnM]

4 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I generally think the whole “let your kid suffer the natural consequences” thing is mean, because if I can help my kid avoid a problem, I see no reason to make him suffer. Maybe your kids are different, but my son learns more from kindness and concern than he would from knowing that his own mother intentionally set him up to fail. If my son fell asleep and risked missing a deadline, I see no reason not to wake him up, and I would hope he would do the same for me.

If your dh dozed off while he was working on a last-minute project, you would probably wake him, wouldn’t you? Or would you let him suffer the natural consequences of having waited until the last minute to get his work done? If you dozed off in the middle of something important and no one bothered to wake you, even though they knew you needed to get the work finished, wouldn’t that bother you? Wouldn’t it kind of hurt your feelings that no one woke you — and worse yet, that they had intentionally chosen not to wake you so you would suffer the consequences?

I don’t think of this as having anything to do with a person’s age. I see waking someone who needs to finish a project as being a common courtesy that I would extend to anyone, no matter what their age. 

My dh and I weren’t raised with a “tough love” approach, and we seem to have turned out just fine. Maybe with some people the “suffer the natural consequences” thing works well, but it definitely wouldn’t work in our home.

 

We feel the same.  Hear hear.  

[SKL]

Funny thing, just tonight I fell asleep while waiting for a hired driver to get my car for driving my kids from aftercare to gymnastics.  I was up all night last night working, all day today with an auditor, and I had Indian food for lunch.  Deadly combination.  I got home at 5pm and fell asleep within minutes, knowing the driver was due here at 5:30.  I was so dead that I didn't hear her knock, ring the doorbell, text, or ring my phone (my phone was in the bathroom).  I got up about 5:50, after the driver had decided to go get the kids with her own car and feed them with her own cash.  I felt horrible.

I am 51 years old and I have been forgiven for my mistake.  Granted, I don't have a pattern of doing this, but I'm glad to be forgiven either way.

On another point, I agree with the person who said that taking a nap can result in more efficient work afterwards.  When my kids get tired doing homework, I usually give them the option of going to bed and getting up early to finish.  It makes sense to me.

I think I hear frustration in Quill's tone because this may be a pattern and she's worried it will have worse consequences later.  That's why I would weigh it on a case by case basis.

[Garga]

I know the issue is already resolved, but I’ll respond anyway because I’ve been reading the book “The Teenage Brain” this week.  The title is a little misleading.  The book is about brain development during adolescence, which includes up to age 23-25.  

Bascially, in human beings, the brain’s development isn’t complete until 23-25 years old.  Some of the last parts to develop are the parts that control impulses and understanding of consequences.  It is harder for a person from age 13ish to 25ish to learn from their mistakes than a person whose brain has finished developing. 

So, yes, you want him to learn consequences...yet it’s a lot harder for him at this age to learn from them and to be able to think ahead to what they might be.  

The book is pretty big and I’m not really capable of explaining everything in it, but it colors how I would answer this question last week vs today.  We all know that teens/early twenties can be a bit scatter-brained or illogical and this book outlines physically/chemically why this is so.  The author (who raised two boys who are adults now) seems to be of the opinion that adults need to come alongside the adolescents and help support them while they’re still developing.  Not infantalizing, but understanding their physical (in the brain) limits.  

I am in the middle of the chapter about how an adolescent’s brain responds to stress.  Their brain responds much more negatively to it than a fully developed brain, which is why they tend to be more stressed about things than adults: stressed about schoolwork, or social situations, etc. Our brains don’t handle stress well when we’re in adolescence.  I have certainly noticed this with my ds15.  He gets overwhelmed over what seem to be simple things to me.  Now I know that it’s not some sort of lack of self-control.  It’s his brain firing off negative stress chemicals in greater amounts than what fires off in my brain when I experience stressors.

[nixpix5]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I think making a habit of rescuing a child from natural consequences is cruel.  Yes, I do know people who have had parents rescue them time and again including in their teens (a cousin, a friend of the family, a former co-worker) who really do think there shouldn't be consequences for their actions.  They really do expect to be excused by someone or they think it's someone else's job to make life comfortable for them when they really were being lazy or procrastinating for no good reason.  They have ongoing relationship conflicts because of their unrealistic expectations of those around them.  And yes, my kids learn it much faster if they feel the natural consequences.

No, choosing to allow the natural consequences to come without intervening is absolutely not "setting your kid up to fail." I think your choice of words there indicates the kind of distorted reality I'm specifically trying to avoid in my kids. People set themselves up to fail by choosing to wait to the last minute, and expecting others to see that they never have to deal with the natural reality that comes from their own choices.  Like I said above, it creates problems in relationships later on because their reality has been distorted. 

No one is talking about someone who has been diligently working all along and dozed off under all the hard work. Yes, in that situation, even natural consequences people who likely intervene and wake the person up.  You did read the original post, right?  These answers are in context of someone on the verge of college choosing to wait to the last minute to get to work on is assignment.   
My husband is a business owner and programmer with experience in high level security projects: space station, nuclear arsenal, military aircraft, payment kiosks, etc.  People in that field who wait to the last minute should definitely face the natural consequences.  As a consultant right now he's the guy who companies hire to come in and evaluate their problems and make recommendations.  There are several people he has had to recommend employers fire (they did) because, in addition to other things, they're not diligent people working hard to meet deadlines, including last minute types who got the ax because of it.  My husband doesn't fall asleep working, he just works, even as much as 20 hour days on rare occasions, either on site or in his home office where he isn't to be disturbed because of all his voice activated software, video conference calls, and the incredibly high level of concentration required to write and manage some of the most complex software there is.  He sometimes sneaks in a nap but he sets an alarm so he get some sleep, recharge, and start fresh.  No, he doesn't need me to monitor him and see that he's up when he needs to be.

So right now I am yearning for a better way to praise this. When I hear natural life consequences are cruel I just cannot wrap my brain around that. What is cruel is never letting kids experience consequences and then sending them out into the world unprepared or with unrealistic expectations. Procrastination, not setting an alarm or even not feeling the positive stress of "I  need to get done" enough to stay awake. These are all critical experiences one needs to not only experience  but experience why they don't work. I am floored by young adults I meet that externally blame everything around them for why things went awry and never look at the part they played. I love my adult boys, they feel loved by me, they visit often and hold down challenging jobs in leadership positions. I wouldn't call what I did for them "tough love" we just call it good old love and concern for their future as an adult which is much longer and more arduous than the short stint as a teen. 

 

This article is slightly off topic but part of the same coin. I have definitely seen this occurring in my own practice over the last part of this decade...much more so than previously. I think it all falls into a mindset that kids should not be unhappy or uncomfortable. It unfortunately does have consequences. 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/how-to-land-your-kid-in-therapy/308555/

[SKL]

And some people do work better on a tight schedule.  The motivation of the deadline is needed to get the job done.  As another poster said, sometimes the result is a positive consequence - discovering that you got the same grade after 4 hours of work that your classmates got after 2 weeks of diligence.  That was my experience many times.  People are different.

[cjzimmer1]

4 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I’m with you, Debbie — I have never used notecards unless I had to show them to the teacher, and even then, I would do them after I wrote the paper just so I would have something to hand in. I know many people use them very successfully, but I find notecards to be incredibly confusing and for me, they are a complete waste of time. 

I've never used notecards, I find creating a outline to be incredibly frustrating and to be honest I don't write an intro or even a thesis statement.  I read whatever the objective of the paper is and I just start writing.  Once the body is done I write the introduction and then I write the conclusion.  If I was required to turn in an outline or notecards (which thankfully I was never asked to do that), they would have been done after the paper was completed.  I know those are all tools that are suppose to help but none of that worked for me.  I couldn't even write an intro because how do you introduce something you don't know what it's going to be.  And until I started writing, I didn't have clue what I was going to write about.  It would just come to me while I was writing.  I realize these are all tools that are suppose to help and I'm sure they do for some people, I always thought they just made it harder.  My kids have all decided that writing the intro first doesn't work and slowly over time they are all adapting to my method of writing despite teachers who want to see outlines, thesis etc (I outsource high school English).

[Tsuga]

On 4/15/2018 at 4:12 PM, sassenach said:

I'd let him sleep, but don't be surprised if he pulls off an A anyways. That's what my kid does. Then the natural consequence becomes a natural reinforcement of bad habits. <insert bang head against a wall emoji>

That happened to me too... It actually has never really been shown to be true that I need to work on things incrementally.

On the contrary, my ability to focus on the moment and do things really fast at the last minute is really useful since they change the requirements all the time anyway. Cautious preparation is a huge waste in business.

At 18 it's his lesson to learn. At least he still has you! :)

[SKL]

13 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I've never used notecards, I find creating a outline to be incredibly frustrating and to be honest I don't write an intro or even a thesis statement.  I read whatever the objective of the paper is and I just start writing.  Once the body is done I write the introduction and then I write the conclusion.  If I was required to turn in an outline or notecards (which thankfully I was never asked to do that), they would have been done after the paper was completed.  I know those are all tools that are suppose to help but none of that worked for me.  I couldn't even write an intro because how do you introduce something you don't know what it's going to be.  And until I started writing, I didn't have clue what I was going to write about.  It would just come to me while I was writing.  I realize these are all tools that are suppose to help and I'm sure they do for some people, I always thought they just made it harder.  My kids have all decided that writing the intro first doesn't work and slowly over time they are all adapting to my method of writing despite teachers who want to see outlines, thesis etc (I outsource high school English).

This is me exactly.  Paper first, outline last.  Sometimes I even looked up my "research" for cites after I had already written at least a draft of the paper.  I tended to get pretty good grades in writing.  Seems it's easier to write in an interesting tone if I'm not just putting down a formula or someone else's ideas.

I am fine with them teaching the outline method though.  Organization first works for some.  One of my daughters has a pretty established formula for writing "good answers" to open-ended questions.  She writes out standard elements and then incorporates her thoughts.  It works for her.

[SereneHome]

3 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I generally think the whole “let your kid suffer the natural consequences” thing is mean, because if I can help my kid avoid a problem, I see no reason to make him suffer. Maybe your kids are different, but my son learns more from kindness and concern than he would from knowing that his own mother intentionally set him up to fail. If my son fell asleep and risked missing a deadline, I see no reason not to wake him up, and I would hope he would do the same for me.

If your dh dozed off while he was working on a last-minute project, you would probably wake him, wouldn’t you? Or would you let him suffer the natural consequences of having waited until the last minute to get his work done? If you dozed off in the middle of something important and no one bothered to wake you, even though they knew you needed to get the work finished, wouldn’t that bother you? Wouldn’t it kind of hurt your feelings that no one woke you — and worse yet, that they had intentionally chosen not to wake you so you would suffer the consequences?

I don’t think of this as having anything to do with a person’s age. I see waking someone who needs to finish a project as being a common courtesy that I would extend to anyone, no matter what their age. 

My dh and I weren’t raised with a “tough love” approach, and we seem to have turned out just fine. Maybe with some people the “suffer the natural consequences” thing works well, but it definitely wouldn’t work in our home.

 

See, and my DH was raised without "tough love" approach and to this day he hasn't leaned certain things and it's a struggle for him and it puts a lot of additional stress on me and our family.  I will say that I don't know how much nurture can change nature, and what would be different if his parents were a bit more into "tough love", but I don't think there is anything wrong with either approach, to a certain extent.

[nixpix5]

58 minutes ago, Eliana said:

I don't see waking a child up as "rescuing them from natural consequences", I see it as the kind of helpful, loving action I would take for anyone.  

 

I have 4 adult children (one of them with a disability that means he hasn't yet launched) and none of them believe they should be immune from consequences.

 

My three who are launched are diligent and responsible - and have been recognized as such in work and academic settings.   All three of them have been what you would call "rescued" throughout their teen years.  All of them at one time or another procrastinated or needed a ride or help picking something up or some other small assistance... none of them felt "owed" such help, all of them knew that their parents would gladly give it, that we see that as part of how our family looks out for each other.  

 

My husband and I both grew up in family cultures that value mutual assistance and looking out for each other - we aren't islands, we're interconnected, and when we see someone needs a helping hand, we offer it.

 

No one has been spoiled or harmed by this; we're all responsible adults who have strong family bonds and a belief in family and communal mutual aid as a vital way of living.

 

I, personally, could not live in the manner some of you find natural.  For me, that would be cold and distant and, as Cat says above, unkind.   I understand that within *your* family cultures, it is none of those, but, please, believe that my culture doesn't intrinsically produce irresponsible, lazy adults any more than yours produces harsh, uncaring ones.

I think what you are describing is slightly different and this whole topic may be passing each other. I agree with you here. We do this. I even mentioned it in another post about raising responsible kids. I often assist, help, jump in and share the burden. My kids have been raised like this so they too jump in and share the burden. People are not islands and communal living and loving is critical to raising caring adults. 

I think the difference is that sometimes we know our kids in unique ways. We know if our kid typically gets things done and has just made an error. In those situations grace should be given freely. Waking a teen up or popping your head in to say "hey bud, don't want to disturb you but if you fell asleep by accident I wanted to wake you up since you have those note cards to do" or thr child who always has their work done but forgot they needed supplies for something due the next day. Absolutely I would help them out! Without question. 

Then there are those times or those students that it has become something of a habit. It has happened before, you have reminded them before and it is still happening. There is a character patterning showing itself in different areas of their life and they are not feeling any urgency. Suddenly parents are caring more and owning it more. If at any point a parent is feeling frustrated by having the burden fall on them then that is a good litmus test that they are owning something that isn't theirs to own. In these moments I think we owe it to our children to let them own it. They need to feel it. It isn't unkind or unloving, it is what we see our child needs before they launch. 

 

There is a true nuance  and art to this parenting thing. :) 

ETA: I meant nuance and typed nuisance. Freudian slip ya think? Lol

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I think making a habit of rescuing a child from natural consequences is cruel.  Yes, I do know people who have had parents rescue them time and again including in their teens (a cousin, a friend of the family, a former co-worker) who really do think there shouldn't be consequences for their actions.  They really do expect to be excused by someone or they think it's someone else's job to make life comfortable for them when they really were being lazy or procrastinating for no good reason.  They have ongoing relationship conflicts because of their unrealistic expectations of those around them.  And yes, my kids learn it much faster if they feel the natural consequences.

No, choosing to allow the natural consequences to come without intervening is absolutely not "setting your kid up to fail." I think your choice of words there indicates the kind of distorted reality I'm specifically trying to avoid in my kids. People set themselves up to fail by choosing to wait to the last minute, and expecting others to see that they never have to deal with the natural reality that comes from their own choices.  Like I said above, it creates problems in relationships later on because their reality has been distorted. 

No one is talking about someone who has been diligently working all along and dozed off under all the hard work. Yes, in that situation, even natural consequences people who likely intervene and wake the person up.  You did read the original post, right?  These answers are in context of someone on the verge of college choosing to wait to the last minute to get to work on is assignment.   
My husband is a business owner and programmer with experience in high level security projects: space station, nuclear arsenal, military aircraft, payment kiosks, etc.  People in that field who wait to the last minute should definitely face the natural consequences.  As a consultant right now he's the guy who companies hire to come in and evaluate their problems and make recommendations.  There are several people he has had to recommend employers fire (they did) because, in addition to other things, they're not diligent people working hard to meet deadlines, including last minute types who got the ax because of it.  My husband doesn't fall asleep working, he just works, even as much as 20 hour days on rare occasions, either on site or in his home office where he isn't to be disturbed because of all his voice activated software, video conference calls, and the incredibly high level of concentration required to write and manage some of the most complex software there is.  He sometimes sneaks in a nap but he sets an alarm so he get some sleep, recharge, and start fresh.  No, he doesn't need me to monitor him and see that he's up when he needs to be.

 

50 minutes ago, Eliana said:

I don't see waking a child up as "rescuing them from natural consequences", I see it as the kind of helpful, loving action I would take for anyone.  

 

I have 4 adult children (one of them with a disability that means he hasn't yet launched) and none of them believe they should be immune from consequences.

 

My three who are launched are diligent and responsible - and have been recognized as such in work and academic settings.   All three of them have been what you would call "rescued" throughout their teen years.  All of them at one time or another procrastinated or needed a ride or help picking something up or some other small assistance... none of them felt "owed" such help, all of them knew that their parents would gladly give it, that we see that as part of how our family looks out for each other.  

 

My husband and I both grew up in family cultures that value mutual assistance and looking out for each other - we aren't islands, we're interconnected, and when we see someone needs a helping hand, we offer it.

 

No one has been spoiled or harmed by this; we're all responsible adults who have strong family bonds and a belief in family and communal mutual aid as a vital way of living.

 

I, personally, could not live in the manner some of you find natural.  For me, that would be cold and distant and, as Cat says above, unkind.   I understand that within *your* family cultures, it is none of those, but, please, believe that my culture doesn't intrinsically produce irresponsible, lazy adults any more than yours produces harsh, uncaring ones.

I was going to respond to your post, HomeschoolMom, but Eliana already posted most of what I wanted to say (and I’m sure she said it better than I would have!)

I will say, however, that I disagree with just about everything you posted. And it’s nice that your dh is so incredibly perfect that he would never, ever accidentally doze off while he was working, but you seem to have missed my point entirely. I was merely wondering if you would wake him up if he accidentally overslept or if you would teach him a valuable life lesson by not waking him and letting him face the natural consequences. Both you and your dh seem very harsh and quick to punish others for their mistakes and I’m not seeing a lot of compassion in your posts. If that’s what works for your family, that’s fine, but many of us have happy, responsible, and successful families without the level of coldness I’m reading in your posts. And maybe I’m completely misinterpreting your tone, and if that’s the case, I apologize for that. I have a feeling that Eliana and I are far more of the “warm and fuzzy” type than you are, so that may be why we are reading your posts the same way.