Father Abraham lyric disagreement

[Daria]

So, in the seven version, not only did he have seven sons, but they were mute (didn't laugh and they didn't cry) and they all had a weird movement disorder? 

 

Man, God sure does move in mysterious ways in selecting who will found many nations!

 

Growing up, it never occurred to me that it had anything to do with Abraham in the Bible.  It was just about some guy named Abraham, who was about as real to me as John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt, or Old Lady Leary with her Cow (yes, I know the legend now, but I didn't as a kid).  It fell in the category of silly camp songs you sang to get the wiggles out when it was raining.  

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I learned it as "many sons".

[Seasider]

Here's a seven version:

 

http://www.mamalisa.com/?t=es&p=4693

Well I've never heard that version!!!!

Those poor sons....

[Chris in VA]

Seven here.

And THEY never laughed and they never cried

All they did was go like this...

 

So, very similar to Daria.

[Seasider]

Okay, perhaps I am being obtuse bit something did occur to me. We seem to be thinking of this song from a Judie-Christian point of view. But Abraham is a patriarch in Islam, too, isn't he? Would that be a reason for varying lyrics?

 

Just speculating. I'd be interested to hear some of our Muslim members weigh in.

[Crimson Wife]

Growing up, it never occurred to me that it had anything to do with Abraham in the Bible.  It was just about some guy named Abraham, who was about as real to me as John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt, or Old Lady Leary with her Cow (yes, I know the legend now, but I didn't as a kid).  It fell in the category of silly camp songs you sang to get the wiggles out when it was raining.  

 

Ditto. I seriously never heard about a Biblical connection until this thread. And the version I learned was definitely "seven sons"

 

[Guest]

Okay, perhaps I am being obtuse bit something did occur to me. We seem to be thinking of this song from a Judie-Christian point of view. But Abraham is a patriarch in Islam, too, isn't he? Would that be a reason for varying lyrics?

 

Just speculating. I'd be interested to hear some of our Muslim members weigh in.

I was wondering this, too...except, it still seems to me that Muslim tradition would teach “many†because of the name meaning “father of many.†But who knows. I’m sure there’s some logic behind how it developed into different versions.

[Tammi K]

Different camps, different places...I've song both.

[umsami]

Many sons is how I learned it. (ETA: As a Presbyterian.  Not a song that kids in Muslim weekend school sing AFAIK.  If they did, it would be Father Ibrahim. ;) )

Edited November 14, 2017 by umsami

[KungFuPanda]

We learned:

 

Father Abraham had many sons

Many sons had father Abraham

I am one of them and so are you

So let’s just praise the Lord

Right arm . . .

[Tap]

Many sons here 

I am one of them and so are you.... 

 

And I also have memory of a version with a verse that said something like "and we all just march along" at the end. 

[rebbyribs]

Am I the only one who has never heard of this song before?

 

(I grew up in an Agnostic household, but my mom was raised Presbyterian and sent me to VBS a couple times and a Christian summer camp once.)

[Ellie]

Many.

 

I've never heard anyone sing "seven" sons. :blink:

[Ellie]

Growing up, it never occurred to me that it had anything to do with Abraham in the Bible.  It was just about some guy named Abraham, who was about as real to me as John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt, or Old Lady Leary with her Cow (yes, I know the legend now, but I didn't as a kid).  It fell in the category of silly camp songs you sang to get the wiggles out when it was raining.  

 

We sang it in church, so...:-)

[unsinkable]

Growing up, it never occurred to me that it had anything to do with Abraham in the Bible. It was just about some guy named Abraham, who was about as real to me as John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt, or Old Lady Leary with her Cow (yes, I know the legend now, but I didn't as a kid). It fell in the category of silly camp songs you sang to get the wiggles out when it was raining.

 

Riiiight...And next you're going to tell me that Liza and Henry DIDN'T have a hole in their bucket.

 

The ol' dears.

[LarlaB]

Many

DH sang many also

[scoutingmom]

My family argues about the spider that goes up the water spout. My sister and I agree it is Itsy Bitsy, but my mom says it is Inky Dinky. Trying to remember, but I think my brother says Eency Weency...... You would think we all would have learned the same version.....

 

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[Retired]

another "many sons"  I taught a vacation bible school around 10 years ago and used the song.  The kids loved marching around an.  It was new to the kids LOL and new to the parents that didnt' attend church as kids.  I had 50 kids marching around it sure was good for burning off energy. 

 

I wonder if the "many" vs 7 has to do with denominations or regional.

 

I learned in Nazarene church rural Alabama circa 1970 something LOL

[SporkUK]

I did it as many sons and only at church though would not be surprised if there was an earlier/other less Biblical sounding kids song as there were a few other rhymes that I did as a kid that I later found out were religious versions of older songs and rhymes.

 

I always enjoyed some of the stories and debates around Keturah and her six sons (like her being Hagar renamed and such). In my religious studies days, I enjoyed looking out for the wives, other women, and other less remembered characters in the text. 

[Elizabeth86]

many

[QueenCat]

My memory (and the memory of my daughter) is that Abraham had many sons. 

 

My husband claims it is SEVEN sons.  (I only remember Ishmael and Isaac, but maybe there are more that I don't remember?) 

 

Which of us is correct?

 

The version I was taught said "seven sons."

[Word Nerd]

The never laughed, never cried lyrics don’t have the right rhythm.

[VaKim]

Many. Never heard of seven.

[Daria]

We sang it in church, so...:-)

 

The 7 version?

 

When I found out there was another version, I kind of assumed that my version was one that someone changed for a secular setting.  I actually learned it in a secular camp that happened to rent space in a church.  We wouldn't have sung a song with a verse that said "Praise the Lord", any more than we would have sung "Jesus Loves Me".  I got the lyrics from a boy scout website.  Many troops, at least in my area, area diverse enough that the religious lyrics wouldn't work there either.  

[maize]

The never laughed, never cried lyrics don’t have the right rhythm.

All depends on the lengths of syllables and of rests.

[maize]

In the study of "variant texts" the idea of 'what makes the most sense' actually weighs counter-intuitively on the side of the less sensible version being original (or at least prior to the more sensible version).

 

The reasoning is that when people notice what they believe to be an error in a "text" (ie 'it doesn't make a lick of sense') they quite reasonably feel good about making a change and propogating the new-and-improved version. Others hear and adopt the 'more sensible' version and therefore the older, more original variant fades from use.

 

It is presumed that no one would have motivation to change a sensible version into a nonsense version on purpose. Changes 'away from good sense' tend to be made as mistakes, not intentional changes. (In the days before 'darn you autocorrect!' -- which often makes errors into new and catastrophic sensible sentences.)

 

This suggests that while "many" makes more sense, "seven" was probably the original lyric.

There is also however a tradition of taking solemn or religious songs and giving them silly and/or irreverent lyrics--I'm guessing you have heard this done to a few traditional Christmas carols.

 

I'm thinking this song could go either way--neither version is particularly serious. It's just a fun kids' action song, with one version being more appropriate for church and the other more appropriate for campfire singing.

Edited November 14, 2017 by maize

[SamanthaCarter]

Never heard seven sons. That doesn't make sense. Many sons refers to Gods promise of making A great nation of Abrahams offspring, and by extension, the entire Christian church. Where does seven come from?

 

 

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[vonfirmath]

My memory (and the memory of my daughter) is that Abraham had many sons. 

 

My husband claims it is SEVEN sons.  (I only remember Ishmael and Isaac, but maybe there are more that I don't remember?) 

 

Which of us is correct?

 

The lyrics in the song is "many sons"

 

Abraham actually had 8 sons that are recorded in the Bible.

 

Ishmael by Haggai

Isaac by Sarah

and 6 more by Keturah. "Now Abraham took another wife, 1whose name was Keturah.

2 aShe bore to him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Ishbak and Shuah."

[vonfirmath]

I learned seven. I never considered it a particularly religious song, though--about as religious as the Amsterdam song. It uses familiar Biblical characters, but doesn't really try to teach a historical or moral lesson, or serve as a worship song. 

 

Its a song to get the wiggles out before you sit down to listen to the Bible story.  Because the final part is "Sit Down!"

[vonfirmath]

My family argues about the spider that goes up the water spout. My sister and I agree it is Itsy Bitsy, but my mom says it is Inky Dinky. Trying to remember, but I think my brother says Eency Weency...... You would think we all would have learned the same version.....

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

 

I have seen/heard both Itsy Bitsy and Eency Weency. Never heard it as Inky Dinky

[Crimson Wife]

The never laughed, never cried lyrics don’t have the right rhythm.

 

It's "and they didn't laugh, and they didn't cry". Never heard the "you are one of them and so am I" version until this thread.

 

[Daria]

Never heard seven sons. That doesn't make sense. Many sons refers to Gods promise of making A great nation of Abrahams offspring, and by extension, the entire Christian church. Where does seven come from?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Wouldn't the nation that Abraham fathered be the Israelites/Jews?

[scrapbookbuzz]

At the risk of sounding like James Roday from "Psych", I have to say I've heard it both ways.  

But I think I've heard the "seven sons" version more than "many sons".

[bolt.]

Wouldn't the nation that Abraham fathered be the Israelites/Jews?

Yes, definitely. The 'by extension' the other poster mentioned is theological.

 

Christian theology considers believers in Jesus (who was a Jew) to have 'joined' Jesus in a theological and intangible way. On this basis, Christians consider ourselves to have inherited some aspects of Jesus' place in the world -- including theological/honorary inclusion among the descendants of Abraham. (These details are in the Christian Bible, in the New Testament, written much later in history than the Abraham narrative.)

Edited November 14, 2017 by bolt.

[vonfirmath]

Wouldn't the nation that Abraham fathered be the Israelites/Jews?

 

Genetically, yes.

 

But Galatians 3:7-9 says:

⁷ Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. ⁸ And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.†⁹ So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

[edelweiss]

The version I learned was "seven sons".  I have never heard anyone say "many sons" until now.

[KrissiK]

Another vote for "many".

[KrissiK]

Its a song to get the wiggles out before you sit down to listen to the Bible story. Because the final part is "Sit Down!"

That's pretty much how we use it. 😜

[Lawyer&Mom]

At YMCA camp it was seven sons. And I never made the connection to the biblical patriarch. Our YMCA was totally secular.

[Ellie]

The 7 version?

 

When I found out there was another version, I kind of assumed that my version was one that someone changed for a secular setting.  I actually learned it in a secular camp that happened to rent space in a church.  We wouldn't have sung a song with a verse that said "Praise the Lord", any more than we would have sung "Jesus Loves Me".  I got the lyrics from a boy scout website.  Many troops, at least in my area, area diverse enough that the religious lyrics wouldn't work there either.  

 

No, the "many sons" version.

[Word Nerd]

The “seven sons†rhythm doesn’t really work even in the video linked above. That makes sense if the lyrics were tweaked to be more secular.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Word Nerd

[SporkUK]

Wouldn't the nation that Abraham fathered be the Israelites/Jews?

 

Only through Isaac and then Jacob, according to the texts, the other sons started other nations which show up later usually either for war or intermarrying.

 

Typically scholars and writers on this connect Abraham's other children to other Semitic-Arabian and north African groups which makes sense to me while Esau's descendent are often written to be connected to Rome which I think is a bit of a stretch to make the conflicts during the Roman Empire far more religiously significant. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by SporkUK

[QueenCat]

The version I learned was "seven sons".  I have never heard anyone say "many sons" until now.

 

Same here.

[QueenCat]

Clearly, both versions are widely used. One can prefer one to the other, but to say it's "wrong" really isn't "right."