Can we talk about the practicality (not the morality) of gun ownership?

[Greta]

By which I mean, the practicality of owning a gun for the specific purpose of self-defense.

 

How well can the average person (i.e. no formal training such as law enforcement or military) truly learn to shoot a gun?  Does shooting a gun at a firing range honestly translate into the ability to shoot an attacker?  I'm 43, and I've never touched a gun in my life.  So starting with zero experience, how realistic is it that I could learn to do shoot well enough to defend myself?

 

My only child is now 17, so I would (in this very hypothetical scenario) have no worries about a young child getting a hold of the gun.  Where and how would I store a gun to make it accessible in a crisis?

 

I would be particularly interested in hearing from anyone who does have experience/training such as law enforcement or military.  How well do you think the average person can master the use of a gun, and how well do they retain that knowledge in a violent situation?

 

Are there any statistics from unbiased sources regarding whether owning a gun actually protects you from crime?  (And I most certainly do not consider the NRA to be an unbiased source.)

 

 

 

 

 

(For the sake of this particular discussion, I'm not looking for moral arguments for or against, but purely practical ones.  Thanks!)

[Guest]

Edited. I sounded snarky. I'm sorry.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Kinsa

[Ottakee]

In Michigan there are many gun safety courses available. They range from the simple...Just enough to get your concealed carry permit to those that take someone who has never handled a gun before through a much more detailed class of how guns work, how to safely clean, load, store, a gun, what type of guns/ammo for different situations, how to safely shoot, etc.

 

I would think you could find a similar class in your area. Some are even women only. There are also great gun safety classes for youth available.

[SKL]

Never too old to learn something new.

 

I have never shot a real gun either.  I do plan to go buy one at some point.  I'm 50.  I did grow up around guns, so I understand the concept of respect for guns vs. fear of them.

 

I don't personally consider buying a gun to be for self-defense in my personal situation.  I think self-defense is often a secondary purpose.  Of course there are people who need it for self-defense, but I'm not one of those people.

[AK_Mom4]

I own guns.  Apparently I own a bunch of them as I have a large gun safe in my garage full of hunting rifles.  I know how to load guns, shoot guns and also safely unload guns.  I'm not a bad shot.

 

If I were to own a gun for the purpose of self defense, I would invest in a small, bedside handgun locker, probably with a biometric lock.

 

If I didn't know how to shoot and wanted to know, I would pay for lessons.  There are several companies here who offer both personal and group lessons for handguns.  Then, once I had gone through the lessons and felt comfortable, I would make a point of going to the range and practicing periodically so I kept my skills current.

[OneStepAtATime]

1.  Can someone who has never handled a gun get extensive training and learn how to safely and effectively handle a gun?  Yes, I believe they can.  I have seen it happen.  Absolutely. Lots of stuff can be learned later in life.

 

2.  Would that extensive training actually help prepare a person to defend themselves against another real person?  Yes, it can help.  Doesn't mean you would react well in the moment (who knows how anyone will actually react in a crisis until they are actually in it) but with training you would be far less likely to panic, less likely to accidentally shoot where you didn't intend to, etc.  Certainly without training picking up a gun could be a really, really, really bad idea.

 

3.  Would I keep a gun in my home for home defense?  No, but I understand why others would.  Actually, we do have a gun but it is locked in a safe and belongs to my husband.  We have never had to use it to defend ourselves during a break-in, thank goodness.  He has been trained and knows how to use it, but we don't have it for home defense.  He inherited it and keeps it for sentimental reasons.  It is not loaded.  Still, he got trained on it just in case he ever had to or wanted to use it.  I have fired guns and know how to use one but my eyesight is wonky and has been for years.  I would not feel safe firing a gun now.  It would be a really tough call if someone broke into my home and I felt that my life and that of my children was in imminent danger.  I might easily hit my kids.  Also, they might overpower me and take the gun away.  Now they have another weapon and may be angry that I threatened them.  I doubt I would take the time to go for the gun.  I would probably do my best to get the kids and I out of the house through a window if at all possible.  I might go for the baseball bat or the sword but really I would being trying to get us out.

 

4.  Owning a gun does not PREVENT a crime.  It just may help prevent you from suffering extreme violence during a crime IF you know how to use a gun and IF you can get to the gun in time and IF the person or persons coming at you don't take it away from you.

[wintermom]

For the practicality of owning a gun for self-defense purposes, I think that having a great deal of quality self-defense training with and without a weapon should be mandatory before a gun permit is allowed. There is absolutely no benefit in having a loaded gun taken from you by an attacker. The self-defense and gun training should be required to be updated every year. These skills are not like riding a bike. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by wintermom

[MercyA]

I don't like guns, generally speaking, and have only used them a few times. However, I grew up around people who are familiar with the use of guns for self-defense. So take my opinions for what they are worth.  :)

 

Your questions in red:

 

How well can the average person (i.e. no formal training such as law enforcement or military) truly learn to shoot a gun?

 

It depends on the type of gun and the amount of time she is willing to spend in practice. It is fairly simple to learn to use a shotgun. You could learn the basics in under a half-hour, probably. Practice of course would take more time. I personally think handguns are trickier.

 

Does shooting a gun at a firing range honestly translate into the ability to shoot an attacker?

 

If you're talking about the action of firing the gun, it's just like using any other tool. It's muscle memory. Practice it enough times and it becomes automatic. However, if a person has any doubt or hesitation about their willingness to use a gun against an attacker, they should not own a gun. Period.

 

So starting with zero experience, how realistic is it that I could learn to do shoot well enough to defend myself?

 

It's a very realistic goal and perfectly achievable if it's something that interests you.

 

Where and how would I store a gun to make it accessible in a crisis?

 

In a gun safe in your bedroom closet or somewhere similar.

[mom2scouts]

I would hope that someone who bought a gun mainly as a source of protection would get excellent training and would spend regular time at a range practicing and improving skills.

[Sarah CB]

 

 

4.  Owning a gun does not PREVENT a crime.  It just may help prevent you from suffering extreme violence during a crime IF you know how to use a gun and IF you can get to the gun in time and IF the person or persons coming at you don't take it away from you.

 

I think this is a very important point. Where would one keep a gun that is both easily accessible and securely stored? 

 

I have no morality issues with guns, my biggest concern would actually be suicide. There were times in my teens where if there had been a gun available I'm pretty sure I would have used it. My cousin killed himself when he was 19 - he used my uncle's gun. I don't know where it was stored, but I think that even if it was safely stowed, teens usually find a way to get into whatever it is they want to get into. It doesn't take a lot of effort to steal a key or figure out a parent's password. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I think this is a very important point. Where would one keep a gun that is both easily accessible and securely stored? 

 

I have no morality issues with guns, my biggest concern would actually be suicide. There were times in my teens where if there had been a gun available I'm pretty sure I would have used it. My cousin killed himself when he was 19 - he used my uncle's gun. I don't know where it was stored, but I think that even if it was safely stowed, teens usually find a way to get into whatever it is they want to get into. It doesn't take a lot of effort to steal a key or figure out a parent's password. 

Dad's coworker had a teen son who used the family shot gun to kill himself during an especially bad day.  It had been in the gun safe but he had figured out the combination.

[ktgrok]

Depends on the person like any skill. My DH is VERY good with a gun. I'm capable but not at his level. But in a self defense scenario it will probably be close range so not requiring sharpshooter accuracy. Guns are stored in combination safes on the nightstand. I pray I never need it and would ideally barricade myself in the room with the kids and hope the bad guy goes away but could shoot if one forced their way into the room.

[Pawz4me]

I've always thought the statistics and study cited in this article were enlightening (and don't miss the link to the other article that details what happens to the brain and body when shots are fired).

 

 

 

According to a 2008 RAND Corporation study evaluating the New York Police Department’s firearm training, between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate during gunfights was just 18 percent. When suspects did not return fire, police officers hit their targets 30 percent of the time.

 

The data show what any police officer who has ever been involved in a shooting can tell you–firing accurately in a stressful situation is extremely hard. In an article for TIME last year, Amanda Ripley looked what happens in the brain and body when shots are fired. The brain stem sends out signals that cause blood vessels to constrict and hormones to surge. Studies have shown that eyesight becomes narrower (literally tunnel vision) under such conditions. People who have been in gunfights describe hearing very little and perceieve time slowing down. Amid this chaos, as police officers have to make difficult, split-second decisions, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts.

 

Overcoming those natural reactions is the goal of rigorous training. Many police departments focus on decision-making as much as marksmanship, helping officers to decide in an instant whether to fire their weapon. Instructors will show targets–both good and bad guys–for only a split second, then score officers on their choices as well as their accuracy. The goal is to inoculate officers against the stress, allowing them to experience what a chaotic situation will feel like before they face the real thing.

 

The NYPD has some of the most comprehensive and sophisticated firearms training of any police force in the country, using a combination of live fire, non-lethal force and simulated scenarios. But on Saturday, that apparently wasn’t enough for the officers involved to land even a single bullet where they intended.

 

 

The takeaway I get from that is that even one of the most highly trained police forces in the world misses much more often than not when shooting in a stressful situation. And what self defense scenario would NOT be stressful? What private citizen could come anywhere close to replicating the type of training those officers get? And yet they miss. A lot.

 

I think almost everyone who isn't active military or active LEO and gets constant, high level training probably greatly over estimates their ability to handle a gun in a self defense situation. I have zero doubt that if I bought a gun and went through training I would be just as susceptible to over estimating my abilities as everyone else seems to be. And I think that over estimation would probably put me in greater danger than if I didn't have a gun and instead relied on other means of protection.

 

But could you learn to handle a gun as well as most other gun owners? Sure. It's not rocket science. 

 

Edited to fix formatting. Arrgh!

Edited April 5, 2017 by Pawz4me

[Spryte]

I'm glad someone else brought up teens and suicide. I was trying to figure out the best way to do so, without coming across wrong.

 

I do think you can learn to shoot well. And I don't have a problem with handguns for self defense, at home. I had one. I took lessons, and knew what I was doing. We role played. We practiced what I'd do during a home invasion, and using the gun was an absolute last resort. I was a good shot. I never wanted to use it, of course, but felt confident. I stored with a trigger lock on it in a locked gun box, with ammo separate.

 

When my DSS was 17, I rehomed it. Too many concerns that he would be depressed, contemplate suicide and use it. I could not live with that possibility. The teens who use a gun mostly succeed. :(

 

I was much more worried about keeping it secure from a teen than a young child. Keeping it away from a young child was relatively easy. Teens are tougher.

 

So, I guess I'd suggest that OP think hard about how to keep it out of a hormonal teen's hands. Things can seem fine, with teens, and spiral out of hand quickly. There are a lot of places with info re: teens and guns, maybe do some reading.

 

I'm going to just jump out there and say that even if you think your teen would *never* be suicidal ... It can shock us all.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Spryte

[sassenach]

It's best to get training. It's just smart. If you're going to use it safely, you need to get good and comfortable. 

 

Ours is loaded and kept in a biometric safe bolted to DH's side of the bed. It's coded to Dh and my fingerprints. 

 

Our kids have all fired it at the gun range multiple times, but none have access to it.

 

 

I can't give you stats. I'm sure my husband could. I will tell you more from the feelings side. Dh is former military and wanted a gun many years ago. At the time we had tiny children and safe technology wasn't what it is now. I couldn't hang with it.

 

Fast forward a decade and all of my kids are older. We've had a few really bizarre situations unfold over the years which made me feel like I wanted the protection. I really trust the safe we own. I don't believe our kids could get into it if they tried. I also don't think my kids will try. 

 

I hope we never need it. I'm glad we have it if we do.

 

Best of luck keeping this conversation from spiraling downward!  :biggrinjester:

[Alessandra]

I can share my limited experience.

 

There is a gun club in our area that teaches the Boy Scout merit badge Rifle MB. Tremendous emphasis on safety. Many parents have taken the course and learned to shoot reasonably well, though not specificallly for self defense. People can go back on an open night to practice after they have completed the safety course. I agree with pp that a full self defense course should be taken, not just the gum part.

 

The man who teaches the Scouts jokes that anyone who plans to break into his house has to give him 20 minutes notice, lol. His guns are locked in one cabinet, his ammo in another. Each gun has a trigger lock with its own key. And the man removes some essential component (bolt or spring??) of each gun before storing.

 

Also in our area is a commercial gun range that emphasizes self defense. So far, I have read about several people who have gone in, rented a gun, and then used it to commit suicide right there on the range.

[Liz CA]

Yes, you can learn how to shoot. As with almost anything, if you are interested enough to practice, you may become quite good.

In my area, there is a plethora of classes from beginner to self-defense - what to do - what not to do. Practicing many different scenarios may help prepare people better but nothing will substitute for the real thing in terms of how adrenaline surges and what real panic can do.

 

Women can acquire smaller handguns like Baby Glock and the small Ruger to fit their hands better unless they have big hands.

Storage possibilities are wide ranging, anything from biometric to old-fashioned gun safe.

Nobody can really answer if the gun will help in a home invasion scenario since you have to be able to get to your gun safe before they get to you.

Generally, I think the better prepared a person is, technically and mentally, the better the outcome will likely be.

 

Regarding suicide: The person in my acquaintance that attempted to commit suicide did not use a gun. While owning a gun may make people think of using it, those who get to the point of desperation to contemplate SI, quite frequently seem to find other ways if no gun is available.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Liz CA

[wintermom]

I've always thought the statistics and study cited in this article were enlightening (and don't miss the link to the other article that details what happens to the brain and body when shots are fired).

 

 

 

 

The takeaway I get from that is that even one of the most highly trained police forces in the world misses much more often than not when shooting in a stressful situation. And what self defense scenario would NOT be stressful? What private citizen could come anywhere close to replicating the type of training those officers get? And yet they miss. A lot.

 

I think almost everyone who isn't active military or active LEO and gets constant, high level training probably greatly over estimates their ability to handle a gun in a self defense situation. I have zero doubt that if I bought a gun and went through training I would be just as susceptible to over estimating my abilities as everyone else seems to be. And I think that over estimation would probably put me in greater danger than if I didn't have a gun and instead relied on other means of protection.

 

But could you learn to handle a gun as well as most other gun owners? Sure. It's not rocket science. 

 

Edited to fix formatting. Arrgh!

 

:iagree:   This is exactly what is the problem. People GREATLY over-estimate their capacity to act and re-act in a stressful situation. So now our law enforcement have to deal with the bad guys as well as the "good guys" armed and dangerous because who knows exactly what they'll do with their loaded weapon. We hear all the time about military persons getting killed by friendly fire. What is stopping police getting killed by friendly fire, too?

Edited April 5, 2017 by wintermom

[Guest]

Tactical training is what you're after, op.

[poppy]

I know a lot of women who have guns for self defense. I do not know anyone who has ever used one.

I know a woman who says a drunk was on her front porch and was extremely grateful to have a gun.  He didn't actually do anything at all.  He walked on her porch, stumbled, walked away. But she attributes her safety to her weapon.  I think it is entirely a peace of mind thing.

 

 

By far the #1 cause of firearms deaths is suicide.  I have a child with a mood disorder. I will not purchase a gun.

[wintermom]

I know a lot of women who have guns for self defense. I do not know anyone who has ever used one.

I know a woman who says a drunk was on her front porch and was extremely grateful to have a gun.  He didn't actually do anything at all.  He walked on her porch, stumbled, walked away. But she attributes her safety to her weapon.  I think it is entirely a peace of mind thing.

 

 

By far the #1 cause of firearms deaths is suicide.  I have a child with a mood disorder. I will not purchase a gun.

 

How would she have peace of mind if she actually pulled the trigger and killed the guy?  It's a completely false ideal, IME. She could just as easily have used her voice, locked her door, called the authorities, etc. She is the kind of person I'd NOT want to have holding a gun. 

[Guest]

I am not military or LE trained, but we do have guns and I know how to shoot them. We have a biometric safe in our bedroom. i would access it if I were alone and an intruder is breaking into my house. If I suffered an attack or invasion in another setting, I guess I would have to rely on something other than a gun as a deterrant; I am a big believer in being alert and aware when out and about and I would be prepared to use anything handy as a weapon if the need arose. (i am not licensed to carry and this is a state with more stringent gun control laws.)

 

I do not know how I would fare with using a gun in an actually threatening situation; I hope I never find out. I am strongly opposed to causing harm to another being so - I can't really say. I'm sure it would depend heavily on how imminent personal harm appeared to be. I like to think I would try to disarm or give an option to flee before I would shoot, but again, it would depend on how serious the threat appeared to be.

 

Lastly, I did not handle a gun until I was over 40 years old. I do think it is learnable at any time, but I have not had to prove that ability so far and hope I never do. Personally, I do feel my family is safer with gun ownership than if we had no guns and I am happy that my husband is competant in using guns. I also feel safer with a large, intimidating dog, and would like to have another GSD as we had before.

[Greta]

Edited. I sounded snarky. I'm sorry.

 

 

I saw your post (but didn't have time to reply) before you edited it, and let me assure you, you have no need to apologize!  I took it in good humor, and was going to explain that despite growing up in a small town in Oklahoma, I've always been a city girl at heart.  So I never joined in on the hunting and target practice and such that my friends and family enjoyed.  

[VaKim]

We have guns. I have not shot one in over 20 years. When I lived alone, I had a handgun that my mom and I would go target practicing with for fun. It came in handy one night when an ex boyfriend's brother and friends showed up at my door. All I had to do was point the gun. They left. I definitely could have shot if I needed to. I really think that comes down to personality though. I have no problems doing whatever is needed to protect myself or my family. Some people can't handle the thought of shooting another human. You have to know yourself.

[retiredHSmom]

I think this is a very important point. Where would one keep a gun that is both easily accessible and securely stored? 

 

I have no morality issues with guns, my biggest concern would actually be suicide. There were times in my teens where if there had been a gun available I'm pretty sure I would have used it. My cousin killed himself when he was 19 - he used my uncle's gun. I don't know where it was stored, but I think that even if it was safely stowed, teens usually find a way to get into whatever it is they want to get into. It doesn't take a lot of effort to steal a key or figure out a parent's password. 

 

deleted for privacy. I wanted to join the conversation but didn't want my information to be available forever.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Tania

[Guest]

Just tacking on re: teens and suicide. It is true this is no small concern, but a teen with SI does not need a gun in the home in order to carry that out. I saw some statistical information recently that showed that countries with the highest suicide rate are not countries with the largest number of personally-owned guns. There was not a correlation between gun access and completed suicide.

[Greta]

Thank you all so much for the replies.  I probably can't take the time to respond to each and every one, but please know that each and every one is appreciated!

 

I especially want to thank those of you who brought up the issue of suicide, because that's a tough thing to talk about, but something that really does need to be considered.  It isn't something I had given much thought to, since no one in my family has problems of that nature.  But I also realize that circumstances can change quickly.  And there is a history of anxiety and depression in both my husband's family and my own.  So that deserves careful consideration.

 

 

It would be a really tough call if someone broke into my home and I felt that my life and that of my children was in imminent danger.  I might easily hit my kids. 

 

And that's precisely one of the things I worry about.  In a break-in scenario, would I be as likely to hit my husband or my daughter as I would the intruder??

 

For the practicality of owning a gun for self-defense purposes, I think that having a great deal of quality self-defense training with and without a weapon should be mandatory before a gun permit is allowed. There is absolutely no benefit in having a loaded gun taken from you by an attacker. The self-defense and gun training should be required to be updated every year. These skills are not like riding a bike. 

 

This is a really excellent point.  It makes a lot of sense to start with self-defense training before getting serious about owning a gun.  

 

I've always thought the statistics and study cited in this article were enlightening (and don't miss the link to the other article that details what happens to the brain and body when shots are fired).

 

 

 

 

The takeaway I get from that is that even one of the most highly trained police forces in the world misses much more often than not when shooting in a stressful situation. And what self defense scenario would NOT be stressful? What private citizen could come anywhere close to replicating the type of training those officers get? And yet they miss. A lot.

 

I think almost everyone who isn't active military or active LEO and gets constant, high level training probably greatly over estimates their ability to handle a gun in a self defense situation. I have zero doubt that if I bought a gun and went through training I would be just as susceptible to over estimating my abilities as everyone else seems to be. And I think that over estimation would probably put me in greater danger than if I didn't have a gun and instead relied on other means of protection.

 

But could you learn to handle a gun as well as most other gun owners? Sure. It's not rocket science. 

 

Edited to fix formatting. Arrgh!

 

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.  It's not exactly encouraging, is it?  

 

Some people can't handle the thought of shooting another human. You have to know yourself.

 

 

I know I could do it to protect my daughter.  I'm not sure I could to protect anyone else, including myself.  I'm not saying I couldn't, just that it's very hard to know.  

[Jkacz]

We own 2 guns for self defense. One is kept downstairs in a drawer and the other upstairs in the bedside nightstand. Both are kept in biometric safes coded to both my husband's and my fingerprints. I can open the safes in less than 10 seconds. Both of our boys have been taught gun safety and have shot guns at the range. Neither can access the biometric safes - I had them try while I was watching.

 

I didn't learn to shoot until I was in my late 30's. I started by attending a beginners' class held by Sig Sauer. Quite frankly, even after the class I didn't feel comfortable with a gun. That was probably because most of the class was in a classroom with very little time devoted to actually shooting - maybe 30-50 rounds total. What really helped was spending time at the range with a friend of my husband. He is a former marine who watched me and corrected my form while I shot several hundred rounds. After that, I've continued going to the range to keep my skills up.

 

I don't know how I would react in a true crisis - I don't think any of us do. I would hope that if someone broke into the house, I would try to grab the kids, the gun and either get out of the house or barricade myself in a room. Would I have the presence of mind, I don't know. But I do know that I have shot enough rounds that I am comfortable with a gun and pretty accurate.

[Lanny]

You MUST attend gun safety courses. You MUST know how to load and clean and use the gun. You MUST know that there is no such thing as an "Unloaded" gun.  "Unloaded" guns kill people.  If you buy a gun, go to a reputable gun store and talk with them, when they are not busy and ask for their suggestions and advice. Attend NRA or other gun safety courses.  If you have a gun, and you know how to use it, you may be able to defend yourself. If you do not have one, you are at the mercy of whoever is threatening you.  It is unlikely that if you were faced with a life threatening situation (someone breaks into your house while you are  inside the house, for one example) that you will react in the same professional way that a trained law enforcement officer would react. You should practice your skills under the supervision of a qualified instructor to keep things fresh in your mind. That's recurrent training, like law enforcement officers do.   Never point a gun at something you do not want to kill, unless it is a target on the target range. Remember that there is no such thing as an unloaded gun and that ALWAYS after using your gun, you clean it properly, before putting it away.  If you buy gun(s) and take good care of them, they will probably appreciate in value and last a lifetime, or more.

[SKL]

I agree that the risk of suicide is not insignificant.  If and when I buy a gun that can kill a human, I will look for one that can be secured e.g. in a biometric safe or however that works.  I have a kid who has expressed suicidal feelings.  I'm not playing with that.  That said, I do plan on teaching my kids how to use guns (or rather, having a professional teach all of us).  Skills and 24/7 access don't have to coexist.

 

(When I was a teen, I also contemplated suicide many times, but oddly enough I didn't think to shoot myself with one of my dad's guns.  Maybe because it was usually my mom I was mad at?  I imagined jumping from a height, running in front of a truck, or swimming too far into the lake to swim back [did try that once, changed my mind and made it back].  But regardless, the gun suicide stats are nothing to scoff at.)

[wintermom]

We own 2 guns for self defense. One is kept downstairs in a drawer and the other upstairs in the bedside nightstand. Both are kept in biometric safes coded to both my husband's and my fingerprints. I can open the safes in less than 10 seconds. Both of our boys have been taught gun safety and have shot guns at the range. Neither can access the biometric safes - I had them try while I was watching.

 

I didn't learn to shoot until I was in my late 30's. I started by attending a beginners' class held by Sig Sauer. Quite frankly, even after the class I didn't feel comfortable with a gun. That was probably because most of the class was in a classroom with very little time devoted to actually shooting - maybe 30-50 rounds total. What really helped was spending time at the range with a friend of my husband. He is a former marine who watched me and corrected my form while I shot several hundred rounds. After that, I've continued going to the range to keep my skills up.

 

I don't know how I would react in a true crisis - I don't think any of us do. I would hope that if someone broke into the house, I would try to grab the kids, the gun and either get out of the house or barricade myself in a room. Would I have the presence of mind, I don't know. But I do know that I have shot enough rounds that I am comfortable with a gun and pretty accurate.

 

But what you are actually going to do with that loaded gun? You could just as easily hurt yourself of your child, as hurt an intruder. And how would you feel then?  How does the fact that you have a gun and bullets in your house make you feel? Is your mental health really so much better, or is it worse? I don't think people realistically think things through completely. 

 

To me, the first step in self-defense is avoiding potentially dangerous situations. Bringing a gun into the equation just mean I have now made the situation dangerous.

[AimeeM]

Well, law enforcement isn't TAUGHT to shoot at moving humans. I mean, that isn't what they practice on :)

 

Ranges often have similar runs, compared to what law enforcement uses (moving targets, etc.).

 

I had never fired a handgun prior to the concealed carry class I took with my husband. I took a few practice shots with a professional directly prior to the test -- and I aced the runs. I scored better than my husband (who also scored very well), despite that he had been firing at ranges, etc., for quite some time. 

 

In an intruder situation, I'm not sure how I would react. I don't think anybody knows until they are in that situation. 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by AimeeM

[Spryte]

The biometric safes sound pretty cool. That might be a good option, just research it.

 

The suicide issue is real, and of course there are many ways to commit suicide so not owning a gun is no guarantee. But suicide attempts with a gun are more likely to succeed, so that scared me. My DSS had a near successful attempt, that did not involve a gun. We'd gotten rid of the gun before that, and even now I don't think he even knew we had one. Still, I was grateful not to have that worry.

 

I'm definitely not saying suicide fear should stop anyone from gun ownership. But it should be considered. I think most of us here would be very well versed in keeping a gun away from small children (I hope), but the suicide risk is another animal, and it's often taboo to talk about suicide. I'm happy to see so much openness on this thread about it.

[Guest]

I haven't read all the responses.

 

I'm not opposed to gun ownership.

 

For me, would I ever feel 100% sure that a person in my home was a bad guy and not a stupid neighbor kid, teen friend, etc? I don't think so unless I saw an adult with a weapon. For me, a phone is my best option but I live in town, could easily escape out a window, etc.

[Lanny]

The type of weapon that you might purchase, after thoroughly researching this, will vary, depending upon where you might use it.  For inside the house, I had a 12 gauge Pump Shotgun, with the shortest barrel that is legal in the USA under Federal law. I think the minimum that is legal is 18" or 20".  If someone is inside your house, or close to it, and you point something like that at them, if they are sober, they will not want you to shoot at them with it.  It does not require that you be an expert shooter to use a weapon like that.  If you will look inside any police car, you will probably see that they have a weapon like that inside the car. Ask your local police officers...

 

Now, if you want something that you can carry around in your purse, you need a handgun.  I think just about everyone today is using an Automatic weapon.  I think my childhood friend in UT bought a "Glock".

 

Many years ago, before Concealed Carry became legal, one of my otherwise law abiding Aunts, and an Uncle,  carried a gun for protection. That was in the Los Angeles area, where it can be extremely dangerous, for example, to have car trouble in certain areas. The same is true in all major cities and extends to small cities. There is crime everywhere.  

 

If you purchase a handgun, IMO, you need to practice with it more often, to maintain your shooting skills. It is harder to hit a small target with a handgun than with a shotgun, but it would impossible for a woman to carry a shotgun in her purse.

 

OT: My last gun was a 12 gauge Pump shotgun, as described in the first paragraph.  When I was in the process of moving here, I didn't request a permit to import it to Colombia, so I left it with a (late) friend to keep for me, until I got a permit.  He put the gun and the ammunition and the Cleaning Kit in their garage.  One day his wife's Honda (car) was in the garage and the car caught fire and the house burned down.  The good part of this is that she was asleep (he was not there) and the cat woke her up and saved her life.  He told me that when the ammunition exploded, it was like the 4th of July. That kind of 12 gauge Pump Shotgun is a "Defense gun" and that is why you will probably see one inside every Police car. At least that was the case in TX. I imagine it is the same in other states.  

Edited April 5, 2017 by Lanny

[AimeeM]

But what you are actually going to do with that loaded gun? You could just as easily hurt yourself of your child, as hurt an intruder. And how would you feel then?  How does the fact that you have a gun and bullets in your house make you feel? Is your mental health really so much better, or is it worse? I don't think people realistically think things through completely. 

 

To me, the first step in self-defense is avoiding potentially dangerous situations. Bringing a gun into the equation just mean I have now made the situation dangerous.

 

If an intruder brings a weapon into your home, during a time when he KNOWS people will be home (i.e. in the middle of the night, or during the day when a vehicle is outside), you can assume he means you harm. Or, at the very least, that he's ready to harm you to get what he wants.

 

How is SHE (the poster you quoted) making the situation more unsafe than the intruder who brought a weapon into her home? I don't understand that. The intruder with a weapon made the situation unsafe. 

 

And what do you mean "avoiding" a potentially dangerous situation? We lock our doors. It's our home. Nobody has the right to break in. Period. Unless, of course, you mean similar to the line of consideration, "Well, she should have been taking more precautions if she didn't want to be raped."

 

In our situation, we have a large home (over 4,000 square feet). We all (DH and I; the children) sleep spread over two levels of the house. There is no way I would be able to access the children quickly enough, in an intruder situation, to herd them to safety. My only hope would be stopping the intruder. 

 

On that note, we also have a rather large German Shepherd. A very loyal dog, that one. And I promise, he can do just as much damage as my gun. The difference is that he has a mind of his own, whereas I control a gun. In a situation that our dog perceived his family was in danger, there would be no, "Now, Obi, only bite him on his leg, and only enough to make him hesitate while I get the children" -- he would go for blood unless I called him off (and that's a maybe, regarding whether he would listen if he still perceived a very dangerous situation). 

 

I'm not going to value the life of an intruder over the lives of my family. And I'm not sorry for having that opinion.

Edited April 5, 2017 by AimeeM

[Laura Corin]

The biometric safes sound pretty cool. That might be a good option, just research it.

 

The suicide issue is real, and of course there are many ways to commit suicide so not owning a gun is no guarantee. But suicide attempts with a gun are more likely to succeed, so that scared me. My DSS had a near successful attempt, that did not involve a gun. We'd gotten rid of the gun before that, and even now I don't think he even knew we had one. Still, I was grateful not to have that worry.

 

I'm definitely not saying suicide fear should stop anyone from gun ownership. But it should be considered. I think most of us here would be very well versed in keeping a gun away from small children (I hope), but the suicide risk is another animal, and it's often taboo to talk about suicide. I'm happy to see so much openness on this thread about it.

 

I wouldn't have a gun in the house for that reason alone, given the risk in my family.

[maize]

Mental health issues also make gun ownership a very, very bad idea in my family.

 

There will never be a gun in my house.

[Word Nerd]

How well can the average person (i.e. no formal training such as law enforcement or military) truly learn to shoot a gun?  

 

It's interesting that this question would be posed on a homeschooling board.

[Bluegoat]

By which I mean, the practicality of owning a gun for the specific purpose of self-defense.

 

How well can the average person (i.e. no formal training such as law enforcement or military) truly learn to shoot a gun?  Does shooting a gun at a firing range honestly translate into the ability to shoot an attacker?  I'm 43, and I've never touched a gun in my life.  So starting with zero experience, how realistic is it that I could learn to do shoot well enough to defend myself?

 

My only child is now 17, so I would (in this very hypothetical scenario) have no worries about a young child getting a hold of the gun.  Where and how would I store a gun to make it accessible in a crisis?

 

I would be particularly interested in hearing from anyone who does have experience/training such as law enforcement or military.  How well do you think the average person can master the use of a gun, and how well do they retain that knowledge in a violent situation?

 

Are there any statistics from unbiased sources regarding whether owning a gun actually protects you from crime?  (And I most certainly do not consider the NRA to be an unbiased source.)

 

 

(For the sake of this particular discussion, I'm not looking for moral arguments for or against, but purely practical ones.  Thanks!)

 

There is no reason anyone can't learn to shoot, but you have to spend a lot of time practicing.  I used to shoot in the military, and my husband hunts and used to do some competitive shooting.  It takes a good deal of practice, on a regular basis, to be able to shoot someone safely in a crime-type situation.  I don't think I ever felt like I would want to try that even when I was still qualified at work, and I would not attempt it now.

 

Handguns are a lot trickier than a rifle or shotgun, too.

 

I have grave doubts that most people who have a gun for crime protection are able to use them properly.  (Now - protection from wild animals is a little different.)

 

As far as being accessible - I guess use those bedside safes?  With a fingerprint ID?  Laws here are such that a gun for crime protection doesn't make sense, you need 2 separate safes and trigger locks.  And then I've never really seen the gun in a purse or glove compartment thing as a safe idea, not to mention it would be illegal to carry a handgun that way here.  So, it just would not be practical for me, and I would just feel insecure doing it.

[Shellydon]

You can learn to shoot a gun at 43 just as well as you can learn to do anything else at 43.  Ride a motorcycle, ride a horse, learn an instrument.  It all comes down to practice.

[Greta]

It's interesting that this question would be posed on a homeschooling board.

How so? Sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't understand what you mean.

[Guest]

I learned at about age 50.  It was so I could share a common interest with my dh and ds.  It didn't really grab me, but I did take several classes and I am a pretty good shot.  I got my concealed carry permit just to make it easier to go to the range.  

 

That said, I don't know that I have what it takes to shoot in self-defense.  I don't know.  The classes are very helpful in explaining what liability you are taking on in self-defense, and how to be prepared to do so, but also knowing what could go wrong.  The last class I took, the instructor said that the NEXT class anyone in the room should take is a self-defense class and the big weapon there would be pepper spray, which is non-lethal but allows you time to get away.  The instructor said it takes some training to learn how to use pepper spray effectively.  Then after THAT class, maybe to take some more gun classes.  And to practice a lot in between times.  

 

Before you purchase a gun, go to a range that has a wide variety of guns available for you to try out.  You need to have the chance to shoot it, load it, and stow it.  I found one gun I liked to shoot, for example, but when I went through the clip and had to reload, I couldn't do it.  I wasn't strong enough to chamber the rounds.  Too bad for that gun.  

 

 

Take a class that allows you to practice at the range; the classes might not be OFFERED by the range, but you do need to have practical experience. 

 

[wintermom]

 There is crime everywhere.  

 

 

 

There is NOT the same concentration of crime everywhere. To believe that walking around everywhere, or even sitting in your home, is the same risk is just not so. Certain areas and certain times can be more dangerous that others. 

 

Avoiding potentially dangerous areas, times and circumstances is much more useful than simply carrying a gun.

[Word Nerd]

How so? Sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't understand what you mean.

 

Sorry I was unclear. I meant that if you believe in general that formal education/school is not necessary to learn how to do something or master a skill or subject, then why would this one be any different?

[AimeeM]

There is NOT the same concentration of crime everywhere. To believe that walking around everywhere, or even sitting in your home, is the same risk is just not so. Certain areas and certain times can be more dangerous that others. 

 

Avoiding potentially dangerous areas, times and circumstances is much more useful than simply carrying a gun.

 

Certain times and certain areas can be more dangerous than others, absolutely. However, people sitting in their own homes, minding their own business, being assaulted or terrorized absolutely happens (and not infrequently), even in the best of areas. 

 

We live in a quiet, upper middle class subdivision, in a very low-crime area.

Last month our subdivision had a number of car break-ins, in the middle of the night(s). The person breaking into the vehicles knew enough to somehow not trip the car alarms. Most vehicles here also have garage door-openers inside their vehicles, providing the intruder with access to homes (since our garages are all attached to our homes). 

I'm curious how you would suggest that we simply "avoid" this potential danger. If he knew how to not trip car alarms, odds are he knows how to not trip home alarms. And what your back-up plan would be, if simply avoiding doesn't work. 

[frogger]

We mainly use our weapons in self defense against wildlife. I don't want the responsibility to carry daily. The responsibility feels too great and because I live in a relatively safe place I can easily make that decision for myself. But we do have plenty of guns in the house. That would definitely look different if mental illness or some kind of disability or other factor were thrown in there even though we have a safe.

 

That said I think some people are more suited to taking that responsibility than others. How do you handle emergencies when driving a car, a medical situation with blood everywhere, being charged by a moose, dealing with mentally ill homeless affronting you? You will have different scenarios but the truth is some people react with automaticity (the training kicks in and others freak). Those are personal situations I can look back on and analyze for myself. Training helps. Making those neural pathways strong enough to be automatic also makes a difference. You don't think in an emergency. You don't have time. So things have to be habitual.

 

I think you can learn these as an older person but they take time and the 17 year old isn't trained and I would definitely not just get one for self defense at that point without a lot of preliminaries.

 

My husband noticed one day that as my boys were running across the yard that they kept their finger straight and out of the trigger guard during a Nerf gun battle. They don't treat Nerf guns like regular guns but the habit is so ingrained to not put your finger in the trigger guard unless you are aimed at what your shooting and ready to shoot they just naturally did it. Those are the types of habits you want. They still don't mess with guns unsupervised but at least if they saw an adult with a gun they would know right away if he was being safe with it.

[Greta]

Sorry I was unclear. I meant that if you believe in general that formal education/school is not necessary to learn how to do something or master a skill or subject, then why would this one be any different?

Ah, I see. I'm sure you weren't unclear, I just wasn't getting it because my reasons for homeschooling are different. (Dissatisfaction with the local school system in particular - not a general/philosophical rejection of formal schooling.).

 

Thanks! :)

[Jkacz]

But what you are actually going to do with that loaded gun? You could just as easily hurt yourself of your child, as hurt an intruder. And how would you feel then? How does the fact that you have a gun and bullets in your house make you feel? Is your mental health really so much better, or is it worse? I don't think people realistically think things through completely.

 

To me, the first step in self-defense is avoiding potentially dangerous situations. Bringing a gun into the equation just mean I have now made the situation dangerous.

What would I do? - I would be prepared to use it on any intruder if I felt that I or my children were in danger. I am good shot and, at this point in training with the gun, there are certain rules that are ingrained - for example: do not point a gun at anything unless you plan on shooting it and do not put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to pull it (keep it alongside). My mental health is great (thanks for asking!) and I've thought things out probably more completely than someone who ducks her head and says it will never happen to me.

 

Avoiding dangerous situations - that's a great idea! I already have a monitored house alarm which we consistently use, signs on the outside of the house stating there is an alarm, and don't do silly things like walk by myself or at night. I'm not sure what dangerous situation you think the young man in the other thread put himself in that he had to kill three intruders. The fact is, not everyone in this world is a nice person.

[goldberry]

Dad's coworker had a teen son who used the family shot gun to kill himself during an especially bad day.  It had been in the gun safe but he had figured out the combination.

 

A close friend lost her 20-something DS to what could only be called an opportunistic gun suicide.  She fully believes if there had not been a gun in the house he would still be alive.  The suicide concern is real.