Can we talk about the practicality (not the morality) of gun ownership?

[Guest]

There's not just suicide opportunity to consider.  I have an intellectually disabled son who can't reason all the way through situations.  For this reason alone, we will not have a gun in our house.

 

FTR, I am pro-gun rights.  DH and I are both military veterans and both qualified marksmen.  But being all "hoo-ah" about gun rights shouldn't trump common sense.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Kinsa

[wintermom]

Certain times and certain areas can be more dangerous than others, absolutely. However, people sitting in their own homes, minding their own business, being assaulted or terrorized absolutely happens (and not infrequently), even in the best of areas. 

 

We live in a quiet, upper middle class subdivision, in a very low-crime area.

Last month our subdivision had a number of car break-ins, in the middle of the night(s). The person breaking into the vehicles knew enough to somehow not trip the car alarms. Most vehicles here also have garage door-openers inside their vehicles, providing the intruder with access to homes (since our garages are all attached to our homes). 

I'm curious how you would suggest that we simply "avoid" this potential danger. If he knew how to not trip car alarms, odds are he knows how to not trip home alarms. And what your back-up plan would be, if simply avoiding doesn't work. 

 

Car break-ins are kids looking for quick cash. They are not the same risk level as home invasions. We have car break-ins here all summer long. The kids are too wimpy to do this in the winter, though. Having a gun for "protection" for this is completely idiotic, IMO.

 

Lock you cars, close and lock your garage doors, put valuables in the house, stay in your house at 2 -5 am. Have the front and back of your home well-lit. Done. 

 

You stepping outside waving a gun around is where you start to look looney. It just isn't necessary. How many of these car break-ins in the middle of the night in your area have resulted in any sort of violence at all?  I'm more concerned by being sprayed by a skunk, to be honest.

Edited April 5, 2017 by wintermom

[Guest]

Its a good idea for you and your son to take a gun safety class even if you do not want to use one; it will keep you safer when you encounter one unexpectedly. I had an idiot teen point one at me at a picnic, his daddy thought I was nuts until a leo took him off to the side and set him straight.

[Mergath]

I grew up around guns and was in the Army, so I'm comfortable around them. Realistically, odds are that you'll be more likely to have the gun used against you. In order to shoot another human being when your body is flooded with adrenaline, you have to practice so frequently that you can shoot without thinking via muscle memory. The average person spending an hour at the range here and there doesn't get anywhere near good enough to do that. And if you aren't good enough, you've either introduced a gun into a situation where an intruder is able to take it and use it against you, or you're putting your family at risk by attempting to shoot someone in a dangerous situation without proper training. Combine that with the high rates of guns used in the home for suicide or homicide, and I think the risks of having a gun far outweigh any potential benefits.

 

Everyone thinks they're a badass when it comes to having a gun and using it to kill an intruder, but all it takes is a split second of indecision and suddenly he's got your gun and you're screwed.

[Mergath]

Car break-ins are kids looking for quick cash. They are not the same risk level as home invasions. We have car break-ins here all summer long. The kids are too wimpy to do this in the winter, though. Having a gun for "protection" for this is completely idiotic, IMO.

 

Lock you cars, close and lock your garage doors, put valuables in the house, stay in your house at 2 -5 am. Have the front and back of your home well-lit. Done. 

 

You stepping outside waving a gun around is where you start to look looney. It just isn't necessary. How many of these car break-ins in the middle of the night in your area have resulted in any sort of violence at all?  I'm more concerned by being sprayed by a skunk, to be honest.

 

:iagree:

 

A few years ago when we lived in our old place in a not-so-great neighborhood, dh was outside and witnessed some guy breaking into the neighbor's truck. Dh had his phone, so he called the police and followed the guy so the police would be able to find him and arrest him. (I told dh it wasn't too smart, but apparently he was feeling heroic that day. *snort*) It was some stupid teenager looking for cash or cigarettes. Introducing a loaded gun into that situation would have been sheer stupidity and would have made things a thousand times worse. Having the mindset "Thank god I have a gun in case someone breaks into my car" is frightening. And foolish.

 

[Ausmumof3]

By which I mean, the practicality of owning a gun for the specific purpose of self-defense.

 

How well can the average person (i.e. no formal training such as law enforcement or military) truly learn to shoot a gun? Does shooting a gun at a firing range honestly translate into the ability to shoot an attacker? I'm 43, and I've never touched a gun in my life. So starting with zero experience, how realistic is it that I could learn to do shoot well enough to defend myself?

 

My only child is now 17, so I would (in this very hypothetical scenario) have no worries about a young child getting a hold of the gun. Where and how would I store a gun to make it accessible in a crisis?

 

I would be particularly interested in hearing from anyone who does have experience/training such as law enforcement or military. How well do you think the average person can master the use of a gun, and how well do they retain that knowledge in a violent situation?

 

Are there any statistics from unbiased sources regarding whether owning a gun actually protects you from crime? (And I most certainly do not consider the NRA to be an unbiased source.)

 

 

 

 

 

(For the sake of this particular discussion, I'm not looking for moral arguments for or against, but purely practical ones. Thanks!)

I'm in Australia so my answers might be a bit different. Storage is easy. You install it in the legally required lockable metal safe. All ammunition has to be kept there.

 

Most people I know with guns are rural and use them for feral animal control or hunting. They learn the basics via the state mandated firearms safety course. They can then go to a firing range or join a gun club for more options.

 

Those who are in the city need to join a gun club or range to have an opportunity to shoot obviously.

 

Skills improve over time.

 

As far as self defence goes our laws are different anyway. You can't just shoot an intruder. They have to actually physically threaten you. In that recent story the guy who shot the others would probably be up on some kind of charges even though they broke into his property.

 

Most people I know with guns could readily use them in self defence but they use them regularly.

[Wheres Toto]

We've thought about getting a gun.  Most likely a shotgun.  More for concerns about bears than people.  I don't know if we'll ever actually do it because it's not something that's on our minds most of the time.

 

My town has a 0% violent crime rate.  I also live on a dead end street, in a dead end neighborhood, with no easy access so I'm not worried about a random drugged up lunatic wandering by.  Anyone intent on burglary is going to go to the neighborhoods with the 4000 to 10000 square foot homes, not bother with our ramshackle little 750 square footer.  We don't look like we have anything that valuable.

 

I've shot again before but it was over 25 years ago on a range.

 

I don't live where guns are common but the thing that made the biggest impression on me - one of my ex's best friend was a state trooper.  Often did undercover work (narcotics I think).  His wife refused to have a gun in the house for her own use, even though he was often not home at night.  She would have nightmares about hearing someone in her house in the middle of the night, shooting them, and it turning out to be her husband.

 

ETA: We avoid potential danger by locking the doors, having automatic lights, and a dog that barks at every.single.thing that moves within a 100 foot radius.  And I keep my cell phone close at hand.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Where's Toto?

[SKL]

Having the mindset "Thank god I have a gun in case someone breaks into my car" is frightening. And foolish.

 

 

What I read her saying was:  people breaking into my car are going to have access to my garage door opener and might try busting into my house.

 

I don't understand people insisting there is never going to be a time when someone is attacked at home (or elsewhere) where having a gun could help them defend their family's lives.  It happens.  This isn't some sensational stuff that people made up in their own minds.  Some people have more risk than others.  Just because it isn't likely to happen to you doesn't mean that holds for everyone on this board.

[Mergath]

What I read her saying was:  people breaking into my car are going to have access to my garage door opener and might try busting into my house.

 

I don't understand people insisting there is never going to be a time when someone is attacked at home (or elsewhere) where having a gun could help them defend their family's lives.  It happens.  This isn't some sensational stuff that people made up in their own minds.  Some people have more risk than others.  Just because it isn't likely to happen to you doesn't mean that holds for everyone on this board.

 

Like a pp said, people breaking into cars are usually dumb kids looking for easy cash, not experienced, armed burglars. And the number of times where someone has successfully used a gun to defend against a home intruder are miniscule. Almost non-existent compared to the number of suicides and homicides that use a gun in the home.

 

No one is saying it's a complete and utter impossibility that one could scare off an intruder with a gun. But the odds of that occurring are so incredibly low compared to the odds that the gun will be used to harm someone living in the home, that I don't think it's at all worth it. Anyone who is considering buying a gun should look at those statistics. It's sobering. And you can be sure that many of the people living through the death of a loved one from gun violence never thought, "Well, my son/daughter/spouse is suicidal, but heck, I'm going to keep a loaded gun in the house anyway." When that kind of thing happens, people are usually blindsided by it.

[gstharr]

I don't own a gun, am not bothered by gun hunting (and beg my hunting friends to give me deer meat), but would advocate for the elimination of guns of this country. As a kid (under 18) I had access to guns, and did a lot of careless, reckless things with them.  Some of the things could have done me or others great harm.  Vowed never to own a gun.  Now, my work brings me into contact with society's sickness. Guns are the quick, but unfortunately often irreparable solution to problems.  Having to just squeeze a trigger, gives no  to time to pause and reflect.  

[Selkie]

I grew up around guns and was in the Army, so I'm comfortable around them. Realistically, odds are that you'll be more likely to have the gun used against you. In order to shoot another human being when your body is flooded with adrenaline, you have to practice so frequently that you can shoot without thinking via muscle memory. The average person spending an hour at the range here and there doesn't get anywhere near good enough to do that. And if you aren't good enough, you've either introduced a gun into a situation where an intruder is able to take it and use it against you, or you're putting your family at risk by attempting to shoot someone in a dangerous situation without proper training. Combine that with the high rates of guns used in the home for suicide or homicide, and I think the risks of having a gun far outweigh any potential benefits.

 

Everyone thinks they're a badass when it comes to having a gun and using it to kill an intruder, but all it takes is a split second of indecision and suddenly he's got your gun and you're screwed.

 

I'd be curious to know how often this scenario you're describing actually happens. I'm sure it has happened, but only very rarely. (I'm basing my opinion on the fact that I've been reading about true crime cases for many years and cannot recall a single instance.)

 

A much more frequent occurrence is an unarmed homeowner being killed by an armed intruder, or an intruder being scared away or injured or killed by an armed homeowner.

[wintermom]

My first had experience with a looney farmer and his "self-defense" rifle was when I was a kid and we were out looking at a property that was on the market. We got maps and details from the realtor. We brought a picnic and were eating it out the back of our station wagon on the property, when the looney farmer comes up with his rifle and scared the poop out of us all. He says he took his property off the market, so he wasn't expecting visitors. He was somehow threatened by a family with young kids in a station wagon.  :confused1:   Idiots should be banned from having weapons. 

[Mergath]

I'd be curious to know how often this scenario you're describing actually happens. I'm sure it has happened, but only very rarely. (I'm basing my opinion on the fact that I've been reading about true crime cases for many years and cannot recall a single instance.)

 

A much more frequent occurrence is an unarmed homeowner being killed by an armed intruder, or an intruder being scared away or injured or killed by an armed homeowner.

 

I don't know what the statistics are for home invasions specifically, but having a gun makes it 4.46 times more likely that you'll be shot during an assault than if you don't have one.

 

To be clear, the *victim* is more likely to be shot. Not the attacker.  http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099?journalCode=ajph

 

[Selkie]

I don't know what the statistics are for home invasions specifically, but having a gun makes it 4.46 times more likely that you'll be shot during an assault than if you don't have one.

 

To be clear, the *victim* is more likely to be shot. Not the attacker.  http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099?journalCode=ajph

 

 

The article you linked to is pretty vague and short on details. Were the victims shot by their own guns or by their attackers' guns? What kind of assaults did they study? The study was done in urban Philadelphia, which makes me wonder if these were gang-related shootings, or home invasions, or muggings?    

[Caroline]

Your burglary stats are over five years. Your suicide stats are for a single year. You aren't comparing apples to apples.

 

Actually....I dunno.

 

According to https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

 

 

According to https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Also....

 

Which of course might not all be suicide attempts and certainly aren't all suicide attempts by fire arm.

 

 

 

 

All of that really just means, it really has to come down to what is relevant to YOU....general you....as an INDIVIDUAL. Meaning, if you have a kid being treated for depression and suicidal thoughts....that's a bigger factor for you than someone who doesn't have a kid being treated for depression. Also, if you live in a higher crime area, it's likely that a burglary with violent crime is something that is a bigger factor for you than someone living in an area with a lower crime rate. Stats are great, but they aren't always applicable to a particular individual's situation.

[Mergath]

Actually....I dunno.

 

According to https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

 

 

According to https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Also....

 

Which of course might not all be suicide attempts and certainly aren't all suicide attempts by fire arm.

 

 

 

 

All of that really just means, it really has to come down to what is relevant to YOU....general you....as an INDIVIDUAL.  Meaning, if you have a kid being treated for depression and suicidal thoughts....that's a bigger factor for you than someone who doesn't have a kid being treated for depression.  Also, if you live in a higher crime area, it's likely that a burglary with violent crime is something that is a bigger factor for you than someone living in an area with a lower crime rate.  Stats are great, but they aren't always applicable to a particular individual's situation. 

 

It says on the burglary statistics that in 65% of the violent cases, the offender was known to the victim, and that robbery only occurred in 7% of the cases (though the phrasing is a little wonky and I'm not totally clear on what they mean). So it sounds like they're lumping in way more than just strangers breaking into someone's home to steal stuff. From what I'm reading, it sounds like anytime someone illegally enters a home, they classified it as a burglary.  So if I had an ex-husband who came into my home to try to talk, we got into a fight, and he shoved me, I think that would get classified as a "violent burglary." That sucks, to be sure, but I don't think it's what most people think of when they think about getting a gun to prevent violent home invasions.

 

Okay, I found the part where they classify what counts as a burglary, and it says that a burglary is someone entering a home when they have no right to be there. That's a pretty broad definition.  That could include my mom coming in my home to wait for me if I was out during a surprise visit.

[Greta]

I grew up around guns and was in the Army, so I'm comfortable around them. ....

 

Thank you for your posts, Mergath. You addressed many of the issues that were on my mind.

  When I was in the process of moving here, I didn't request a permit to import it to Colombia, so I left it with a (late) friend to keep for me, until I got a permit.  He put the gun and the ammunition and the Cleaning Kit in their garage.  

 

Unless it was in a gun safe, keeping a gun in the garage seems like a monumentally stupid idea.

[1GirlTwinBoys]

Since you don't have young children, I'd keep the gun very close to my bed within hands reach.  You don't want to be looking in a closet, trying to get safe unlocked when you're half asleep etc... There just may not be that kind of time.

 

First thing of gun safety is NEVER put your finger on the trigger unless you have target in sight and are going to shoot.  Most people will automatically put their finger on the trigger when picking up a gun.  Drives me crazy!!!  Never touch the trigger unless you're ready to kill something.

 

Sometimes my husband and I go to the shooting range for a date night. :)

 

 

[SKL]

The article you linked to is pretty vague and short on details. Were the victims shot by their own guns or by their attackers' guns? What kind of assaults did they study? The study was done in urban Philadelphia, which makes me wonder if these were gang-related shootings, or home invasions, or muggings?    

 

Right - there are situations where a high concentration of guns means lots of crime and not a high value on human life.  There are other areas where a high concentration of guns means something entirely different.  If you dig into the statistics, you see very clear patterns about who is killing whom most of the time.  The gang / high-crime area stuff skews the "statistics" for the whole country.

[SKL]

Keep in mind there are no statistics for the number of people who changed their mind about committing a burglary / robbery / assault because they realized the potential victim had or might have a gun.

 

Just because it isn't in the crime database does not mean it doesn't happen.

[justasque]

Ah Ha!  missed that!  Thanks!

 

So, 266,000/5=53,000 ish   

 

So 53,000 victims of violent crime burglaries, vs 22,000 firearm suicides.    Still a greater amount of violent crime burglaries (and.....if I were to use a gun in a home invasion situation it would be to prevent ANY violent crime, not just death)   vs suicide deaths, by over half.

 

Again, that ONLY means....you have to look at YOUR (general you) situation.  My DH has firearm training, but, he has NEVER, EVER been violent with me.  EVER.  The likelihood that he would use a gun against me in a domestic incident is basically zero, despite the fact that having a gun in the home makes that more likely (and yes we have a gun in the home....he inherited it from his dad, it's in a safe in the bedroom, he has never fired it)   It's not just about the correlations, but the causation. Just because stats say that XYZ is more likely across the board, the doesn't mean that it's necessarily more likely for YOU, the individual. 

 

Hmmm.  To make it apples-to-apples, you've have to include suicide attempts that didn't result in death (and perhaps firearm accidents of other kinds as well), since the "violent crime" victims seems to include violence that doesn't end in death.

 

We also haven't really discussed liability situations, such as shooting someone in error.  A misunderstanding about why someone is tresspassing/intruding, or a mistaken identity plus a gun could end in tragedy.  We also haven't discussed guns + alcohol, which can get complicated.  What do those of you with guns do to mitigate this concern?

 

I am also curious about the "gun locked in nightstand" approach.  I wonder how many home invasions happen at night.  The one time I was burgled it was during the day, when we weren't home.  Two of my neighbors over the years have had home invasions by recently-let-go gun-wielding construction-business employees with drug habits; these were also during the day.  The few times I've been in a call-the-cops or scary-gun scenario have also been during the day.

My curiosity being - is the gun-in-nightstand approach putting an overabundance of emphasis and prep into one fairly specific scenario?  Do those who use this approach also prep for other scenarios?

[teachermom2834]

I am pro-gun rights but will not have one with a teen. Teens are impulsive. While a truly suicidal teen will find another way, a gun makes it awfully easy just to be impulsive. My teens do not have mental health issues. They have bad days. They have days they are overcome by emotion or frustration. They would never work hard enough to pursue another way. But a gun allows one to be impulsive and successful in suicide. That is just for my family and I totally respect other families having guns. I didn't want a pool with toddlers either but I respect the rights of others to make that choice.

 

We do know a teen that committed suicide via family gun. He was by all accounts a well adjusted content kid. He just had a very bad day.

 

I love my teens but they are not fully grown. Sometimes the judgement and perspective are really lacking.

Edited April 6, 2017 by teachermom2834

[justasque]

Right - there are situations where a high concentration of guns means lots of crime and not a high value on human life.  There are other areas where a high concentration of guns means something entirely different.  If you dig into the statistics, you see very clear patterns about who is killing whom most of the time.  The gang / high-crime area stuff skews the "statistics" for the whole country.

 

I am not sure I understand this.

We've been talking about having guns as a form of protection.  Generally, one shouldn't wield a gun unless one is prepared for the possibility that it may mean taking a human life.  Which means putting the value of your own life (and that of your family, and possibly your property) above the life of the (perceived) attacker/intruder.  That doesn't mean you put a low value on human life in general.

When balancing the pros and cons of guns for self-protection, one weighs the possibility of being a victim of crime against the possibility of unintended tragedy (such as suicide of a loved one).  The higher the crime rate in one's neighborhood, the more that balance will come down on the side of gun ownership.  Thus it makes sense that more people in high-crime areas will own guns for self-protection than people in low-crime areas.  I don't think it means that gun owners in high crime areas put less of a value on human life than gun owners in low crime areas.  

 

When you say "There are other areas where a high concentration of guns means something entirely different.", what do you think it means?  

[Liz CA]

Car break-ins are kids looking for quick cash. They are not the same risk level as home invasions. We have car break-ins here all summer long. The kids are too wimpy to do this in the winter, though. Having a gun for "protection" for this is completely idiotic, IMO.

 

Lock you cars, close and lock your garage doors, put valuables in the house, stay in your house at 2 -5 am. Have the front and back of your home well-lit. Done. 

 

You stepping outside waving a gun around is where you start to look looney. It just isn't necessary. How many of these car break-ins in the middle of the night in your area have resulted in any sort of violence at all?  I'm more concerned by being sprayed by a skunk, to be honest.

 

I know you mean this in general - at least I think you do - but there are some people who cannot stay in their home between 2 - 5am because they work and get off in the dead of night and have to walk to their cars. And not every work place provides an escort to your vehicle.

I ended up doing nothing, not even carrying mace. But dh wanted me to carry something. If I had a conceal and carry permit, I may have carried "something."

[Joker]

I still remember the night (at 16) I was babysitting and a back door, inside the garage, suddenly opened so the alarm went off. I took the kids to the master and called 911. The oldest. all of 8 years old, brought me her dad's gun. I freaked, took it from her, and put it away. I never once thought about holding on to it just in case. Everything turned out okay. I'm grateful she didn't accidentally shoot it off and I'm grateful it wasn't used against us. I know I am not one to be able to point and shoot in any scenario. I have no problem with strategically places baseball bats, fire extinguishers. vases, etc. but a gun is definitely lethal and not something I'm okay with. 

[Guest]

They're absolutely practical to use. The original point and click interface, and I'm not being facetious. We have them handy for home defense, tactics personal defense, and sports shooting.

[SKL]

 

I am not sure I understand this.

We've been talking about having guns as a form of protection.  Generally, one shouldn't wield a gun unless one is prepared for the possibility that it may mean taking a human life.  Which means putting the value of your own life (and that of your family, and possibly your property) above the life of the (perceived) attacker/intruder.  That doesn't mean you put a low value on human life in general.

When balancing the pros and cons of guns for self-protection, one weighs the possibility of being a victim of crime against the possibility of unintended tragedy (such as suicide of a loved one).  The higher the crime rate in one's neighborhood, the more that balance will come down on the side of gun ownership.  Thus it makes sense that more people in high-crime areas will own guns for self-protection than people in low-crime areas.  I don't think it means that gun owners in high crime areas put less of a value on human life than gun owners in low crime areas.  

 

When you say "There are other areas where a high concentration of guns means something entirely different.", what do you think it means?  

 

In those high-crime areas, some of those gun owners don't have them just for self-defense, but for use in committing crimes.  That's what I'm talking about.  People who would and have put their desires ahead of human life.  If you live in a place like that and have a gun for self-defense, I don't blame you.

 

There are other places where people primarily own guns for hunting or other sport and would never ever point a gun at a human unless necessary to protect a life - and possibly not even then.

 

Again, look at broken-down statistics for yourself.  They speak volumes.

 

[HomeAgain]

Dh, myself, and our teen are all able to handle a weapon well.  Dh and I were military trained, but unless you're expected to handle a weapon, quite a few career fields only introduce a rifle.  I would say the amount of training I got with a 9mm in the military would be on par with the amount of training I got as a civilian handling an AK-47(not a real one, a semi-automatic).  I shoot very well.  I shoot moving targets very well.   For civilians who want to learn in our area, there are classes all over our area on how to shoot and gun clubs that will teach you.  We didn't even know our then-15yo had been out shooting.  His scout leaders thought nothing of bringing weapons to their remote camp outs so the could learn.  You want to see a freaked out parent, yeah, that was me.  This was also the same troop that gave a rifle as the prize for selling the most popcorn.

 

None of us own a weapon in the home.  For us to be comfortable it would have to be locked away, and those precious moments unlocking it are better used on other things, like calling 911.  I'm not against anyone who does own a weapon, but I don't let my kid play at anyone's home who doesn't practice gun safety.  When I was little a friend and I got into an argument.  She ran home, went through her mother's in-home daycare, got the gun out and came back to point it at my head.  As an adult, I have to be okay with people having weapons around here, but I sure as heck aren't going to allow my children to play if I don't know how those weapons are kept.

[Greta]

If I had stayed in one of the other places I have lived (and honestly I probably should have stayed, for this and other reasons), it never would have occurred to me to own a gun (or to homeschool, lol, but that's another story).  The crime rate here in my city is twice the national average, and more than twice that of other cities of the same size.  The state as a whole has the highest, or second highest, or third highest crime rate depending on the particular statistics/study.  In most of the US, the crime rate has been dropping in recent years.  Here, it has been going up.  We have had some close calls personally, and there have been some horrific crimes in places close to our home which we frequent.  There have been break-ins in our very neighborhood, and one of them turned violent.

 

I just wanted to explain why I was considering this.  I don't think of myself as a paranoid or fearful person, but perhaps I am.  People who were born and raised here always brush it off with "oh, it's bad everywhere."  But I think they think that because they've never lived anywhere else!  It was absolutely nothing like this in other places I have lived.  I know there are places that are far worse, but there are a heck of a lot of places where it's far better.  Gun laws here are extremely lenient, so guns are everywhere, so that makes you start to think that if "they" are armed, maybe I should be armed too.  But I just don't know if that would really improve my odds in a potentially violent scenario or not.  I don't leave my house without pepper spray.  And I keep a knife within arm's reach of my bed.  We always try to be home relatively early in the evening compared to most people, and there are many parts of town that we simply never go to.  Perhaps that's the best I can realistically do?

 

Thank you all again for answering my questions and helping me think through this.  The statistics about LEO's accuracy (or lack thereof) are quite sobering.  If they only hit their intended targets 18-30% of the time, it just doesn't give me much hope that I could use a gun effectively.  I think that a self-defense class would be helpful, and maybe that will give me some insights that can help me make further decisions.  (I did take a self-defense course years ago, but I haven't practiced those skills since, so another course is long overdue!)

[ktgrok]

:iagree:

 

A few years ago when we lived in our old place in a not-so-great neighborhood, dh was outside and witnessed some guy breaking into the neighbor's truck. Dh had his phone, so he called the police and followed the guy so the police would be able to find him and arrest him. (I told dh it wasn't too smart, but apparently he was feeling heroic that day. *snort*) It was some stupid teenager looking for cash or cigarettes. Introducing a loaded gun into that situation would have been sheer stupidity and would have made things a thousand times worse. Having the mindset "Thank god I have a gun in case someone breaks into my car" is frightening. And foolish.

 

 

That, and the story of the person who "just pointed the gun at someone to make them go away". As Lanny said, one of the biggest rules with guns is you never ever point it at something you aren't willing to destroy/kill. You do NOT use it as a deterrent, or to scare someone. If you aren't willing to kill the person, you don't aim at them. Period. Now maybe people do mean they would kill someone over a car break in, but I hope not!

 

Like in self defense, where you don't punch/kick unless you are willing to put your whole effort into it (and I was taught never hit once, always three times) otherwise you just anger them, same with a gun. 

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[Mergath]

When I think of having a gun for protection, I would think that a women with a ex husband who would shove her would absolutely want the gun for protection from him, whether that would be classified as an invasion or not.  A fire arm for protection isn't just about protection against a violent home invasion.  I mentioned earlier the scenario about walking in a dark parking garage after work.  Someone else mentioned a guy trying to steal someone's purse and she beat the crap out of him till she was able to get in her car and drive off.  A gun for protection is about protection from any violence, violent home invasion is just one factor, and one that I looked up because it was forefront of my mind after the other thread.

 

I'm sorry, but I find this kind of attitude frightening. You'd be willing to shoot someone for shoving you in the heat of an argument? Really? If someone does own a gun, it shouldn't be for "protection from any violence." It should be something you use only if your life is in danger.

[Mergath]

That, and the story of the person who "just pointed the gun at someone to make them go away". As Lanny said, one of the biggest rules with guns is you never ever point it at something you aren't willing to destroy/kill. You do NOT use it as a deterrent, or to scare someone. If you aren't willing to kill the person, you don't aim at them. Period. Now maybe people do mean they would kill someone over a car break in, but I hope not!

 

Sadly, I think there are a lot of people who would kill someone over a car break in.

 

I can't remember the specifics, but on one of these threads in the past, someone was talking about CC in church and how it would be handy because you could shoot someone who was stealing the offering box. Something like that. The idea that you're good to shoot someone who commits any crime against you, not just someone who threatens your life, is very prevalent.

 

[Katy]

You can absolutely learn how to shoot accurately.  How long that will take will depend in large part on how many other activities you've done where observing and controlling your body is something you've practiced.  Other activities that involve the same skills are meditation, horseback riding, and martial arts IME.

 

To shoot accurately you must force yourself to calm down, be aware of your body, focus, aim, and pull the trigger between breaths.  The recoil, especially for the first hundred shots or so, will shock you and pump up your adrenaline. The adrenaline will make your hands shake and your aim poor. Teaching yourself to calm down, aim, and shoot between breaths when your adrenaline is high is a muscle memory thing you will need to practice a lot to have it come easily.  It's not safe to have a gun in your home, IMO, until it is muscle memory to calm down - until you can do it automatically without thinking about the steps. 

 

If you have a friend or family member who likes to shoot, ask for lessons. Or consider calling gun ranges in the area and asking to take the gun safety classes and learn how to shoot for a total beginner.  You'll figure out in less than 10 hours if this is something you want to pursue or not.  You'll either love it and feel powerful or you'll hate it and want nothing to do with it.

 

I'm not sure suicide is something to be that concerned with unless someone in your family has huge impulse control issues- if you are truly suicidal you'll find a way no matter what.  I definitely think getting every kid in your home in an age-appropriate annual gun safety class is incredibly important. You also need to figure out how you truly feel about the morality of defending yourself.  I, for example, am not sure I could kill someone to defend my life.  I could absolutely kill someone to defend my kids though. I think this is for religious reasons.

[Greta]

Sadly, I think there are a lot of people who would kill someone over a car break in.

 

I can't remember the specifics, but on one of these threads in the past, someone was talking about CC in church and how it would be handy because you could shoot someone who was stealing the offering box. Something like that. The idea that you're good to shoot someone who commits any crime against you, not just someone who threatens your life, is very prevalent.

 

 

 

I ran out of likes, but I wanted to say that I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I believe the response should be in proportion to the offense.  Potentially deadly force should be used in cases of threat to a person, not threat to property!

[Selkie]

Sadly, I think there are a lot of people who would kill someone over a car break in.

 

I can't remember the specifics, but on one of these threads in the past, someone was talking about CC in church and how it would be handy because you could shoot someone who was stealing the offering box. Something like that. The idea that you're good to shoot someone who commits any crime against you, not just someone who threatens your life, is very prevalent.

 

 

I disagree that the attitude you're describing (people willing to kill someone over a car break-in or a theft) is very prevalent. The vast majority of thieves who get shot are threatening someone's life.

 

Much more prevalent in our society are people who would kill someone in order to steal their car, or their phone, or a few bucks, or as part of a gang initiation, or just to get a thrill. It's because of these people that many law-abiding citizens feel the need to own a gun.

[Greta]

I disagree that the attitude you're describing (people willing to kill someone over a car break-in or a theft) is very prevalent. The vast majority of thieves who get shot are threatening someone's life.

 

 

 

 

I think it's becoming more prevalent.  A jury in Texas acquitted a man who shot a fleeing woman in the back, because his right to recover his stolen $150 was deemed more important than her right to live.  I would have thought you would be hard-pressed to find 12 people who could think that way, but apparently it's not that difficult.

 

There was also a story in the news recently about a Walmart customer who shot and killed a 19 year old who was in the process of shoplifting some diapers.

 

I think there are a heck of a lot of morally-challenged idiots out there.  And more than a few of them have guns.   :crying:

[TravelingChris]

I did have LE training.  We spent a lot of time target shooting and one session doing a bad guys/good guys drill.  We were in a room and the screen showed suddenly a bad guy scenario or a good guy scenario.  They always started with the bad guy scenario.  You were supposed to shoot the guys pointing guns at you or others and not shoot the women with babies and such like.  Out of my class, I was the one who most accurately shot- not a single good person was shot and all bad guys were shot.  I was not the most accurate target shooter in the class but I was the best scenario shooter.  Because when you add adrenaline to a situation, results change.  With me, they got better.  With the best target shooter, they got a lot worse.  

 

I have had a few times when I had to react in an emergency and I have always reacted well.  That gives me the confidence that I do keep my head in emergencies and I am not one to get frazzled.  But if you have never had an emergency with dangerous people, I don't know how one really prepares.  Fake scenarios seem to be the usual way to train but I don't know that civilians have much access to that.  

[SKL]

I disagree that the attitude you're describing (people willing to kill someone over a car break-in or a theft) is very prevalent. The vast majority of thieves who get shot are threatening someone's life.

 

Much more prevalent in our society are people who would kill someone in order to steal their car, or their phone, or a few bucks, or as part of a gang initiation, or just to get a thrill. It's because of these people that many law-abiding citizens feel the need to own a gun.

 

Though, people who are of the mindset that it's OK to use a gun to facilitate theft etc. would also probably kill another person for trying to steal from them etc.

 

Most people would not.

 

I think some people are misreading intent here.  I think the examples given are indications that person X could become very violent / dangerous, and person Y wants to be prepared in case that happens.  Fact is, domestic violence leads to death and serious injury rather frequently.  I would not blame a victim for wanting to be prepared against further escalation of an already violent person, especially since it seems the justice system fails such victims regularly.  And I would not blame a person for wanting to protect against a possible violent robbery based on concerning events in the neighborhood.

 

I do agree that just having a gun around is not the answer - the gun has to be secure and the owner has to know when and how to use it.

 

Not sure about the CC in church comment.  Could be a post I never saw.  I did once mention that I'm glad to know some people CC in church.  This was shortly after a crime that involved a shooter killing many children, and another shooter opening fire in a church.  If someone started shooting up my church, I'd be glad for some trained parishioner being able to pull out his CC weapon and return fire.  It has nothing to do with the offering box.  But again, hopefully that was someone else's comment she was mentioning.

[Selkie]

Though, people who are of the mindset that it's OK to use a gun to facilitate theft etc. would also probably kill another person for trying to steal from them etc.

 

Most people would not.

 

I think some people are misreading intent here.  I think the examples given are indications that person X could become very violent / dangerous, and person Y wants to be prepared in case that happens.  Fact is, domestic violence leads to death and serious injury rather frequently.  I would not blame a victim for wanting to be prepared against further escalation of an already violent person, especially since it seems the justice system fails such victims regularly.  And I would not blame a person for wanting to protect against a possible violent robbery based on concerning events in the neighborhood.

 

I do agree that just having a gun around is not the answer - the gun has to be secure and the owner has to know when and how to use it.

 

Not sure about the CC in church comment.  Could be a post I never saw.  I did once mention that I'm glad to know some people CC in church.  This was shortly after a crime that involved a shooter killing many children, and another shooter opening fire in a church.  If someone started shooting up my church, I'd be glad for some trained parishioner being able to pull out his CC weapon and return fire.  It has nothing to do with the offering box.  But again, hopefully that was someone else's comment she was mentioning.

 

This is the thread where it was discussed. I don't see any posters who supported shooting an offering plate thief. Someone asked if the reason for having concealed carry at church would be to shoot such a thief, and everyone answered no. 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/548128-is-there-security-at-your-place-of-worship/

[Mergath]

This is the thread where it was discussed. I don't see any posters who supported shooting an offering plate thief. Someone asked if the reason for having concealed carry at church would be to shoot such a thief, and everyone answered no. 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/548128-is-there-security-at-your-place-of-worship/

 

It might have been a spin-off thread, because gun control/CC threads always seem to come in groups of four or five. But I distinctly remember one person saying they would shoot someone stealing from their church, because I remember thinking it was just about the least Christian thing I'd ever heard in my life.

[Bluegoat]

I think a potential domestic violence situation is one where I would feel having a gun would make it much more dangerous than it would be otherwise.

 

Also - it's worthwhile I think to mention that physical fitness is significant in shooting.

[Guest]

Sadly, I think there are a lot of people who would kill someone over a car break in.

 

I can't remember the specifics, but on one of these threads in the past, someone was talking about CC in church and how it would be handy because you could shoot someone who was stealing the offering box. Something like that. The idea that you're good to shoot someone who commits any crime against you, not just someone who threatens your life, is very prevalent.

 

 

Killing another person is *always* bad. But sometimes it is the less bad between two evils.  In other words, to shoot someone to kill them, that person would have be doing something at *least* as bad -- or at least have every appearance of planning to do so.  Eg. the theater shooters and so on...get that shooter down before he kills more people.  But both are a bad situation.  I also remember the SPU student who CC'd, and who knows what would have happened had he not brought down a shooter.  

 

Using the church offering plate as an example:  I used to attend a big church.  Off-duty policemen stood in the back of the congregation and they walked the ushers across the street where they deposited the offering immediately after collecting it.  The policemen were armed, not to prevent the cash from being stolen, but to prevent the carriers from being shot in an armed robbery.  

 

They were at the back of the congregation because that church was in a tougher part of town, and we would occasionally have mentally ill people walk in and start shouting at people and making threats against the speaker/preacher/people.  The off-duty policmen, armed, came in and handled things without *using* their guns, but they *had* their guns.  

 

It was definitely a deterrent, but it wasn't untrained gun-owners either.  But no one ever would have sanctioned shooting a guy who grabbed the cash and ran...that's the difference, I think.  

[Guest]

A close friend lost her 20-something DS to what could only be called an opportunistic gun suicide.  She fully believes if there had not been a gun in the house he would still be alive.  The suicide concern is real.

 

I am NOT disagreeing with you.  I'm using a different example.  

 

A year ago, after a childhood friend of my son's killed himself by jumping off a bridge, I read up on why people do this--part of the way one tries to understand a situation that is incredibly sad, I guess.  Anyway, one of the things I learned is that bridge-jumping is incredibly opportunistic and impulsive.  If a person goes to a bridge, but finds it has a pretty tough barrier that slows them down or prevents the attempt, they will drive off to find another bridge--but almost always, by the time s/he finds another bridge the impulse is gone.  

 

For this reason, Seattle is spending a LOT of money putting barriers on bridges, and from what I read, this method of suicide is on the decline in this area.  

 

People who have survived a jumping attempt say they knew within a split second after jumping that they really wanted to live, and the ones who can tell us that were lucky enough TO live.  I wonder how often or if  that is the case for impulsive suicides related to other kind of methods, including guns.  

[Greta]

 

People who have survived a jumping attempt say they knew within a split second after jumping that they really wanted to live, and the ones who can tell us that were lucky enough TO live.  I wonder how often or if  that is the case for impulsive suicides related to other kind of methods, including guns.  

 

Oh, that just breaks my heart.  

[Guest]

Oh, that just breaks my heart.  

 

Right?  But we never know what can happen in the human heart, even in a moment.  It's why we don't mess around with life/death decisions.

[Greta]

(note - we got handguns when we were stuck living next door to a meth adict. Dh decided the baseball bat was unlikely to stop him if it came to that. We have since moved, thank God!)

 

Of course, you can learn to shoot if you put in the effort. I attended a women's handgun class and found it very interesting and I got pretty good for two days of practice, However, I haven't shot since and have intentionally forgotten the finger code to our small handgun safe.

 

Even if it is totally justified, the consequences of killing someone in my own home are steep. If you take someone's life, no matter the circumstances, your life will be turned upside down.

 

I am pretty sure that if I pulled a gun out there is a better than average chance of the perp getting ahold of it.

 

So, for me, a taser is a better option. I don't have one yet, but that is my plan. Not deadly, but the goal would be to incapacitate someone long enough for help to arrive. 

 

A taser is something I had not considered.  Probably more effective than pepper spray?  But not nearly as dangerous as a gun.  

[TravelingChris]

In our city, the car thieves are not teens.  Just recently, we had a large number of car break-ins in the light in few neighborhoods.  It seemed like it was a professional burglar because of the patterns,  One guy here in a nearby neighborhood was awakened by scraping and it was his utility trailer being stolen.  He called 911, jumped into his car and followed them.  He caught up to them and one of the guys jumped out with a machete right as the police officers arrived.  It was two long time criminals from outside our city but from a rural area nearby and they were in their 40's or 50's.  A few years ago, we also had a few people who were doing both car and house burglaries who were caught and again they were adult males in their 30;s and again professional thieves.  

 

As to guns and suicides, we owned a gun but didn't keep any ammo for it for many years to prevent that,