stealing food...and other things

[wendyroo]

This leads me to believe that this is a situation that warrants professional help from a qualified therapist, not parenting advice on an online forum.

 

(This is not aimed at you, regentrude; just in response to all the comments in all the threads that blithely suggest counseling like it is a simple solution.) 

 

As someone who has put HUGE amounts of effort into find help for my family, I can say that finding professional help is often easier said than done.

 

Our insurance is only accepted at one large counseling "chain" in my area.  They do offer family therapy there, but none of the therapists are willing to work with kids as young as mine.  They say they are too rambunctious and don't get anything out of therapy.  To some extent, I agree...their attention spans are short, they tend to get "distracted" when uncomfortable topics come up, they bicker and tantrum and and are loud and needy which makes it nearly impossible for the adults in the room to talk and is disruptive to people in nearby rooms.

 

And even if we did find someone willing to put up with that to do weekly, family therapy, it would cost about $500 a month.  Mental health coverage is paltry and our deductible and out of pocket maximums are HUGE.  That expense might be manageable, but in our family the main reason we would need family therapy is to cope with the behavior of my autistic son, and his psych appointments and meds are already costing over $500 a month.

 

I think my family would be greatly helped by family therapy (and ABA therapy for my oldest and respite care and support groups for myself, my husband and my 5  year old), but just because those supports are warranted and highly desired does not make them available or remotely affordable.

 

Wendy

[TechWife]

 

 just because those supports are warranted and highly desired does not make them available or remotely affordable.

 

 

 

Sadly, I agree. Help for behavioral issues and mental health counseling in general is not easy to access. It's a sad state of our cultural priorities. 

[Laura Corin]

OP, I wonder if the children are craving attention rather than food.  They get that attention when they are 'naughty'.  Do they get that attention by being 'good'?

 

When one of mine started being naughty, getting punished, being naughty again, getting punished..... I one day started to hug him instead of punishing him.  Then we talked through the issue and fixed it together.  Over a period of a couple of months, the issues largely went away.

 

I don't know if this would work with the dynamic of several kids, but perhaps stopping the naughtiness with group hugs and giggles might be an idea.  That would mean your being present with them most of the time and I don't know how that fits with your current setup.

 

In the meantime, get rid of the guns.

[StephanieZ]

Reading over the other linked thread and reconsidering this one, I strongly, emphatically believe that you, OP, really must get help from a therapist of some sort. Perhaps your pediatrician can hook you up. If you don't get help soon, then I expect it's likely child protective services will get involved eventually, because something very bad is going to happen with your family without a serious shift in attention. Your signature indicates that you are expecting a new baby in September. I can imagine that will make things even more complicated. If you have a supportive and effective relative who would be willing to come for a while to help out, I hope you'll take advantage of the opportunity for practical help not only with your happy moments with you new baby but also with parenting the kids already on the scene. You need some help!!! You could call your pediatrician and ask for referrals to "parenting classes", too. Maybe do that NOW so you can take classes before your baby comes. 

[caedmyn]

The reality is that I'm a crappy mother and the management needs of these children greatly exceed my capacity to manage them.  I have some health problems and trying to do anything that requires divided attention...which is parenting all day long...is really hard.  I also have some sensory issues and dealing with constant noise and movement is very stressful.  I have read at least 50 books on parenting over the last 6 or 7 years.  I have tried so many different things and I can't make anything work.  I feel completely overwhelmed pretty much all day every day and have for years.  I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing anymore or what limits I'm supposed to be setting or what consequences I'm supposed to be imposing.  It doesn't really matter because nothing helps anyway.

 

I did ask DH to change the combo on the gun safe.

 

 

[caedmyn]

I've got no experience with this, but I think I'd try a short-term super-abundance approach, to try to decrease the sneakiness of it all.

 

At the end of every meal, I'd ask, "Does anyone want pears? Nuts? Brownies? Bacon?" Perhaps hourly I'd announce snack time with high-interest suggestions. If I found a kid with food, I'd say, "Hon, I see you are having a snack time. Let's try shouting "Mommy (crazy name)! I want pears now! Can I have a snack?" // Reply, "Yes, child crazy name! Snacks are awesome!" (Pause) "Good job. Remember now, first you ask for your snack, then I say yes, then you put it in your mouth." (Grin) "What's that plan, child crazy name?" // "Yay! You got it (or almost got it). Snacks are awesome!"

 

If there were snacks I just couldn't handle involving in this short-term thing (perhaps soda) I'd keep them out of the house just briefly whole the shout-ask, always-yes procedure gets established. Then you could re-introduce it as an item you don't say yes to, but immediately suggest something else instead... Like a bowl of sprinkles. Those ages will totally abandon pop for a bowl of sprinkles.

 

Given a few weeks of no sneaking (because there's no need, because it's always yes) you can return to normal limits and less fantastic substitutions. Plus you will probably run out of many items, and that provides a concrete opportunity for a 'no' that kids will understand (and that sneaking won't solve).

 

The new habit (asking) will replace the old habit (sneaking), then you kinda bait-and-switch them by applying limits gradually.

 

 

 

This might actually work.  I will try it.

[LucyStoner]

Sadly, I agree. Help for behavioral issues and mental health counseling in general is not easy to access. It's a sad state of our cultural priorities.

Very true. I am fortunate to live in a state that has more options and laws requiring mental health parity and ASD related coverage. But it hasn't been all hunky dory.

 

Also, we need to remember that even with good insurance, the wait list can be killer. It's "good" here now relative to many other places in terms of number of providers and services and insurance coverage but it's not like one can usually call for help on Monday and have it started by the next week. I used to have a full time professional management job with a private office and an assistant. All of this and the legwork involved in getting help for just 2 boys replaced that as my fulltime job. Only no paycheck and no assistant and at times much longer than FT hours. I really need a union ;).

 

Setting up ABA that was actually helpful for my older son, due to a variety of factors that I won't detail, took years. That is not hyperbolic. We started the process the month he turned nine, which was as soon as we learned the coverage was available. He started with a provider who would actually do home/community based ABA this year, just shy of his THIRTEENTH birthday. I am not someone who drops the ball. I have everything related to his ASD in a carefully organized five inch binder and a detailed call log of every phone call and a copy of every 1 to 12 page pre-waiting list health information form. There was not a month during that time he wasn't, at minimum, on several waitlists even if we had otherwise despaired. We were offered services that weren't what he needed and at one point started services that were detrimental. It was a slog.

 

My younger son was placed on the waiting list for ABA at the place my older son uses this last November and will start later this summer. He's doing a daycamp that now counts as ABA this summer which insurance is covering but 4 years ago we paid $$$$ many families don't have for our older son to attend that same camp because coverage was non existent. So, 9ish months for my younger son is a positively short wait.

 

I am not saying people shouldn't work to find a way to get professional help but there are things many families (even those who have been able to get a variety of services from OT to SLP to mental health counseling to ABA to social skills clubs etc) can and do learn from self education. Also, despite being primarily a homeschooling parent we have used the services that are available via the school district which is worth investigating for many families with high needs kids. The point of my post isn't to cause despair in those needing to start looking for help but to remind everyone e that it's not as simple as "get help now". It's nice to think such help is readily available but quite often it is not. It takes hard work, luck and resources. One potential option may be to seek the help of a social worker from the county health department. For crisis situations (and it really sounds like the OP is in some degree of crisis), they can offer support connections to other resources. this is not an option in some places however.

Edited July 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

Take that gun safe and lock it in your trunk, and put the keys in your pocket, NOW. Or on a chain around your neck. The idea of hiding treats in the gun safe is so out there, but please, whatever your reasons, you can't wait for DH to get around to changing the combination. Either google how to do it, call the safe manufacturer and do it yourself, or get the guns OUT of the house. And never ever ever put treats your kids want in with the guns ever again. Please. 

 

And how on earth did the kid get the combination anyway????  Ours is 8 digit, and if yo get it wrong more than 3 times it locks down totally and you can't try again. So you can't sit there practicing over and over or anything. 

[SproutMamaK]

The reality is that I'm a crappy mother and the management needs of these children greatly exceed my capacity to manage them.  I have some health problems and trying to do anything that requires divided attention...which is parenting all day long...is really hard.  I also have some sensory issues and dealing with constant noise and movement is very stressful.  I have read at least 50 books on parenting over the last 6 or 7 years.  I have tried so many different things and I can't make anything work.  I feel completely overwhelmed pretty much all day every day and have for years.  I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing anymore or what limits I'm supposed to be setting or what consequences I'm supposed to be imposing.  It doesn't really matter because nothing helps anyway.

 

I did ask DH to change the combo on the gun safe.

 

OP, are you still homeschooling? If so, you need to enroll the kids in school asap. Homeschooling is great, when it works out... but it's not working out. Right now you need to focus on yourself. Aside from that, however much we may malign them, school support workers often have a lot of experience with issues like these and ideas for how to deal with them that may be beneficial to you. Either way, you need to not be dealing with this 24/7.

 

You need counselling for yourself, even if you can't find family counselling for everyone. You are overwhelmed and it sounds like you're just shutting down, emotionally, physically, and mentally. YOU. NEED. HELP. You need help around the house, you need help with the kids, you need help with yourself. Trying to do everything on your own isn't feasible right now, and it's not going to get better when another baby is added to the mix.

 

And don't just change the combo on the safe. Get rid of the guns for now. Seriously. Your children have already shown you that they'll figure out the combination to the safe, and this time you only found out because they slipped up and told you. Next time around, they'll figure out the combo and you won't know until it's too late. A child with ODD who is willing to put in the work to figure out a combo to a *gun safe* is a tragedy waiting to happen. Please, if you listen to nothing else anyone has said here, get rid of the guns. Right away. Like, this minute, because if you haven't changed the code yet, your son only needs the time to try out the last 9 digits that could complete the code and he'll be holding a gun in your house.

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by SproutMamaK

[Seasider]

Gently said, it's time to reconsider if homeschooling is truly the best option for your family.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Seasider

[Storygirl]

:grouphug:

 

I know you are really overwhelmed. The fact that you are reaching out for advice online is really good, but I'm sure you need in-person help as well. You haven't brought up school in this thread, but I would encourage you to seriously consider putting the kids in school in the fall and having a period of time where you are not homeschooling. You need a break to take care of yourself. I know you won't get a huge break since you have a baby on the way, but taking the responsibility for homeschooling off of your plate for at least a period of time should relieve some of your stress.

 

I was in a position where I was very burned out, and though I resisted the idea, we decided to enroll my children in school. It has been good for them in many ways, but the biggest benefit is how it has helped me to not be bearing that educational burden all by myself any more. It's also helpful for me to have some hours of the day apart from my children, because I am a highly sensitive person and an extreme introvert, and I was feeling stressed all the time from the loudness and the constant need to supervise children who needed me every moment. I had a hard time being the kind of parent that I wanted to be.

 

I think you need to remove some of the burden of caring for these kids full time, so that you can regroup and take care of yourself. School may be a good option for that, even if your local schools leave a lot to be desired.

 

ETA: Seasider and I were posting at the same time, with the same thought.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Storygirl

[Farrar]

Caedmyn, we really aren't trying to pile on you. You clearly need support. And there's no shame in that. You sound like you might be suffering from depression yourself. Some of these solutions are tough, but you can do them and hopefully get your dh on board. The kids need more attention and supervision and just your presence. If the kids are homeschooled, I also strongly suggest that you put them in school. You're clearly exhausted. They'll benefit from the structure and the rules. It will give you a little bit of a break. You might even look into preschool programs for the youngest. I know that mental health options can be hard to access if you don't have the money, but we're all reading this and nearly all saying it sounds like you and your family could greatly benefit from seeing a family therapist if you can find a way to make that happen. And, again, there is no shame in that. Being a "good mother" means asking for help. It doesn't mean being perfect or loving doing that supervision time that seems so hard. It means outsourcing it sometimes and recognizing your limitations. You can do this.

[Arcadia]

As someone who has put HUGE amounts of effort into find help for my family, I can say that finding professional help is often easier said than done.

I agree. But that is also why OP need to start ASAP. She needs to check out what services are covered under Early Intervention for her 3 year old and what is covered by the school district for her 5 & 7 year old. Then she needs to check out what their insurance would cover. After that she needs to get on the waiting lists.

 

My friend was able to get respite care while her son was on the waiting list for therapy under early intervention. That was a big help to her as she had a newborn at that time and just getting those few hours per week of respite care was lovely.

[zoobie]

The reality is that I'm a crappy mother and the management needs of these children greatly exceed my capacity to manage them.  I have some health problems and trying to do anything that requires divided attention...which is parenting all day long...is really hard.  I also have some sensory issues and dealing with constant noise and movement is very stressful.  I have read at least 50 books on parenting over the last 6 or 7 years.  I have tried so many different things and I can't make anything work.  I feel completely overwhelmed pretty much all day every day and have for years.  I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing anymore or what limits I'm supposed to be setting or what consequences I'm supposed to be imposing.  It doesn't really matter because nothing helps anyway.

 

I did ask DH to change the combo on the gun safe.

 

Have you told your DH how you feel? Your OB? You need help now, and additional support when your baby is born. It's not fair to you, your current children, and any future children to keep things at the status quo. You all deserve love, care, and attention. :grouphug:

[Mom-ninja.]

 The 5 yo is very attention seeking. He's also oppositional and defiant and most of his communication these days consists of whining, arguing, sulking, or wailing. (Not because he has any problems at all with talking, he just chooses to be awful.) I would happily ship him off to boarding school for the next 13 years.

 

 

A five year old does not CHOOSE to be awful. Ever. 

 

You words are greatly indicating that your emotions towards your kids are beyond normal mother frustration. I agree with others that homeschooling does not sound like something you should be doing right now. Therapy. Do everything you can to get it. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

:grouphug:

 

Big hugs to you.  Not trying to sound unsupportive.  That does sound like a very challenging situation.  I think in this case I would consider public school because you could be getting a lot of the help needed rather than trying to solve all of these difficulties on your own.  I understand the cons of that too, but sometimes you need to just take the help. 

 

 

[8circles]

The fact that your location makes it less likely for you to be getting outside help that quickly, it is even more important for you to do the things you *can* do ASAP.

Most important is to get the guns out of the house.  

Your children deserve and need attention.  It doesn't seem like your DH would be willing to do it, so unfortunately it is left to you.  If you can't do it, hire someone.  Does your school district do summer school & can you still enroll them?  Are there inexpensive park & rec daycare programs?  Maybe we can help you brainstorm.

I really like bolt's suggestion, but that would mean you would devote your time to being present with them all day.  If you can, do this.

Try to loosen the reigns on the food and money situation.  You've gotten a lot of good suggestions.

 

ETA:  SOrry, I misunderstood one of the posts about both parents working at home to be you, OP.  It was my mistake.  I changed the post to reflect. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by 8circles

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think we are confusing her with someone else here.  I admit I thought the same, but she said she does not work. 

[8circles]

I think we are confusing her with someone else here.  I admit I thought the same, but she said she does not work. 

 

Oh, gosh.  Sorry if that's true.

 

I thought she said she and DH both worked from home.  

 

ETA:  Just searched through the thread.  I didn't see where she said she didn't work (maybe another thread?) but I did see the post that I thought was her, but I was wrong.

Edited July 15, 2016 by 8circles

[KuniMom]

I haven't read all the replies, so I'm not sure if this had been mentioned, but you might want to consider food intolerances. Most kids that have intolerances or allergies actually crave the foods that cause them trouble. That, combined with the poor impulse control in your older one, your middle child's poor attitude, and the fact that your youngest already has food issues, made me think that it could be a food issue across the board. Intolerances can show up as behavior issues, and sometimes the root cause is never dealt with, just the symptom. Our daughter used to have horrible rages until we took her off of dairy.

[Peplophoros]

OP, are you still homeschooling? If so, you need to enroll the kids in school asap. Homeschooling is great, when it works out... but it's not working out. Right now you need to focus on yourself. Aside from that, however much we may malign them, school support workers often have a lot of experience with issues like these and ideas for how to deal with them that may be beneficial to you. Either way, you need to not be dealing with this 24/7.

 

You need counselling for yourself, even if you can't find family counselling for everyone. You are overwhelmed and it sounds like you're just shutting down, emotionally, physically, and mentally. YOU. NEED. HELP. You need help around the house, you need help with the kids, you need help with yourself. Trying to do everything on your own isn't feasible right now, and it's not going to get better when another baby is added to the mix.

 

And don't just change the combo on the safe. Get rid of the guns for now. Seriously. Your children have already shown you that they'll figure out the combination to the safe, and this time you only found out because they slipped up and told you. Next time around, they'll figure out the combo and you won't know until it's too late. A child with ODD who is willing to put in the work to figure out a combo to a *gun safe* is a tragedy waiting to happen. Please, if you listen to nothing else anyone has said here, get rid of the guns. Right away. Like, this minute, because if you haven't changed the code yet, your son only needs the time to try out the last 9 digits that could complete the code and he'll be holding a gun in your house.

 

 

I really, really tried to ignore this thread b/c I knew some of the responses would be nasty.  I failed.  

 

SproutMama, "it's not working out"?  Have you never felt the things the OP is now writing (and probably in a state of heightened stress)?  You don't know her, and presumably none of us here do.   Let's try to give advice without coming to definitive conclusions about whether her home situation is "working out" or not.   That's her job, not yours.  

 

OP, I was in tears today for this very situation with my 9 year old, who steals special treats she knows are for special occasions (she has plenty of unfettered access to healthy snacks and even some not-so-healthy).  5 hours later, I'm feeling better and have new resolve to make this a teachable moment.  No advice here, and no judgment either.  Praying that you find peace today. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Peplophoros

[LucyStoner]

The reality is that I'm a crappy mother and the management needs of these children greatly exceed my capacity to manage them. I have some health problems and trying to do anything that requires divided attention...which is parenting all day long...is really hard. I also have some sensory issues and dealing with constant noise and movement is very stressful. I have read at least 50 books on parenting over the last 6 or 7 years. I have tried so many different things and I can't make anything work. I feel completely overwhelmed pretty much all day every day and have for years. I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing anymore or what limits I'm supposed to be setting or what consequences I'm supposed to be imposing. It doesn't really matter because nothing helps anyway.

 

I did ask DH to change the combo on the gun safe.

Do not confuse overwhelmed and depressed with crappy mother. They are not same things. You need time to solve these issues and it sounds like you have some serious caregiver fatigue. What you are facing with ODD is harder than anything most moms ever have to navigate. You're overwhelmed because it is overwhelming.

 

If being overwhelmed makes someone a crappy mom, I've been the crappiest mom in the world at times. I had to learn to take care of myself which is super hard to do when you have kids who need so much.

 

Sometimes the bravest and best thing we can do is ask for help and accept help.

 

I don't know where you are or what supports you can get in your area but I urge you to make two calls ASAP. One to your doctor to discuss your mental health and options for counseling and other treatment. And one to the local crisis clinic, if you have one to call. You can search here. Call and ask about options for families in need of parenting support and help connecting to services for special needs kids. Even if you haven't been able to find help in the past, call and don't get off the phone until you have some more leads to contact tomorrow. http://www.211.org

 

Put all options on the table even if you have previously been unable or unwilling to go that route- public school, private school, FT help, medication, various services, husband needing to take FMLA for a time to help you get supports in place, even moving etc. Desperate times, desperate measures.

 

I am so sorry things are so rough right now and hope that you can make some changes that improve things for your whole family.

Edited July 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Mergath]

I really, really tried to ignore this thread b/c I knew some of the responses would be nasty. I failed.

 

SproutMama, "it's not working out"? Have you never felt the things the OP is now writing (and probably in a state of heightened stress)? You don't know her, and presumably none of us here do. Let's try to give advice without coming to definitive conclusions about whether her home situation is "working out" or not. That's her job, not yours.

 

OP, I was in tears today for this very situation with my 9 year old, who steals special treats she knows are for special occasions (she has plenty of unfettered access to healthy snacks and even some not-so-healthy). 5 hours later, I'm feeling better and have new resolve to make this a teachable moment. No advice here, and no judgment either. Praying that you find peace today.

Would it be better for the op if everyone lied and said this is totally normal and that things will be fine? Obviously things aren't working. She wouldn't be here asking for help if they were. Giving her advice on what to do isn't being "nasty."

[hornblower]

OP posted just a few weeks ago that she was thinking of quitting homeschooling & again reported being very overwhelmed. 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/614890-thinking-about-quitting/

I think OP needs to hear again and again that this situation is not ok for her or for her children. I believe she's asking for confirmation that it's not supposed to be this way, and that it needs changing. 

OP, you need counselling. Yes, your children will behave better when you feel better & can parent better.  I don't care if your dh doesn't 'believe' in counselling. You need it. 

I agree that you should think hard about other solutions such as getting the kids into school, activities, a paid helper etc. 
 

[LucyStoner]

Oh, gosh. Sorry if that's true.

 

I thought she said she and DH both worked from home.

 

ETA: Just searched through the thread. I didn't see where she said she didn't work (maybe another thread?) but I did see the post that I thought was her, but I was wrong.

I think it's on the other s/o thread. I am guilty of making the same mix up and may have contributed to the confusion of others which I sincerely apologize to the OP for. Edited July 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Seasider]

I haven't read all the replies, so I'm not sure if this had been mentioned, but you might want to consider food intolerances. Most kids that have intolerances or allergies actually crave the foods that cause them trouble. That, combined with the poor impulse control in your older one, your middle child's poor attitude, and the fact that your youngest already has food issues, made me think that it could be a food issue across the board. Intolerances can show up as behavior issues, and sometimes the root cause is never dealt with, just the symptom. Our daughter used to have horrible rages until we took her off of dairy.

 

Red food dye is another culprit, and it's pervasive in processed foods.

[8circles]

Just wanted to also say that I also have an almost-9 year-old with ADHD and he has been *very* oppositional and defiant.  That dx has been discussed as a possibility.  He is doing better with meds, and I have had to both change my parenting and practice more self-care.  So I'm not judging or misunderstanding.  I get it.

 

Echoing Katie that being overwhelmed does not = bad mother.

[LucyStoner]

Another thought is reaching out to the social worker at a local children's hospital.

 

I have literally had to take my son to the ER for behavioral health issues so I do understand how hard unmet behavioral health matters can get. Thankfully that's in the past for us just now. I felt like a failure for going in like that but the truth is the only failure would have been NOT going.

[lllll]

I'm another who agrees that it would probably be best for you, OP, to put the kids into some kind of school - public, private, whatever you can find.  And then try to find a counselor/therapist for yourself.  Just start with yourself.  A lot of therapists make appointments at night when your dh can watch the kids.  I used to do that, go in the evenings while my dh watched the kids.  

 

:grouphug:

Edited July 15, 2016 by ~ d9n

[SproutMamaK]

I really, really tried to ignore this thread b/c I knew some of the responses would be nasty.  I failed.  

 

SproutMama, "it's not working out"?  Have you never felt the things the OP is now writing (and probably in a state of heightened stress)?  You don't know her, and presumably none of us here do.   Let's try to give advice without coming to definitive conclusions about whether her home situation is "working out" or not.   That's her job, not yours.  

 

OP, I was in tears today for this very situation with my 9 year old, who steals special treats she knows are for special occasions (she has plenty of unfettered access to healthy snacks and even some not-so-healthy).  5 hours later, I'm feeling better and have new resolve to make this a teachable moment.  No advice here, and no judgment either.  Praying that you find peace today. 

 

I'm not trying to be nasty. Believe it or not, I'm trying to be supportive of her needs, which is not the same as saying everything will be okay. Have I ever felt totally overwhelmed? Absolutely. But not for years on end, and not to that point where I could genuinely say I could ship a kid off to boarding school and be happy about it. There's no judgment here or feeling "better than", just a recognition that to get to that stage of being consistently and completely overwhelmed means that what you are doing at the time isn't working and something needs to change. I've never felt that way because I don't have to deal with the ongoing issues she does, not because I'm somehow better. I admire the heck out of her for trying so hard for so long, even at great cost to her own personal well-being. But there comes a point when doing that is not alone unhealthy a mother, but unhealthy for their children. There is nothing nasty about saying that it's time to recognize when you're in over your head and do something different. That is healthy, and by calling it "nasty" you're only stigmatizing it more for people who feel like needing to change courses means they've failed.

 

OP, you are not a failure and not a bad mother. You are overworked, overwhelmed, and (from what I can see on the thread from this winter) very alone. It's okay to say "this isn't working." It's okay to change how you do things. It's okay to need help, and to stick up for yourself until you get it.

[poppy]

OP, you are in a terrible spot mentally. I've been there myself.  No judgement. But when I was there, I didn't have kids to deal with and I know that must make it so much worse for you- the feeling of inadequacy along side being overwhelmed by your responsibilities.  You need to take care of yourself.  You can't fix anything until you manage to help yourself which I *know* is really hard.  If you aren't on medication like an SSRI- please consider it. Pregnant or not. It is much, much better for the baby and the kids if you can find a way to be mentally functional. I wish I was closer to you so I could offer a hug. 

[regentrude]

I really, really tried to ignore this thread b/c I knew some of the responses would be nasty.  I failed.  

 

SproutMama, "it's not working out"?  Have you never felt the things the OP is now writing (and probably in a state of heightened stress)?  You don't know her, and presumably none of us here do.   Let's try to give advice without coming to definitive conclusions about whether her home situation is "working out" or not.   That's her job, not yours.  

 

I do not think anybody here is nasty. 

The OP has posted before that she is thinking about quitting homeschooling; she herself feels that it is not working out.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/614890-thinking-about-quitting/

 

And no, I honestly do not think that most people have ever felt as the OP does, because this is far beyond normal frustration:

I feel like there are no good options, but I don't see how I can handle any form of schooling next year (homeschool or homework).  I can't even handle the kids.  I am not cut out for motherhood.  There have been many times where I have contemplated just walking out the door and not coming back, because I am so overwhelmed and stressed and angry and I have no hope of things ever getting better.  

Edited July 15, 2016 by regentrude

[bibiche]

Are you able to bring in a live-in nanny or at least an au-pair (or two - my sister always had two so she would have full-time coverage for her three kids)? I think that you need more back-up than a mother's helper will be able to provide. Also, I noticed in my sister's case that the children developed a better relationship with full time live-in care providers than they did with part time helpers and their behavior improved.

[lllll]

The reality is that I'm a crappy mother and the management needs of these children greatly exceed my capacity to manage them.  I have some health problems and trying to do anything that requires divided attention...which is parenting all day long...is really hard.  I also have some sensory issues and dealing with constant noise and movement is very stressful.  I have read at least 50 books on parenting over the last 6 or 7 years.  I have tried so many different things and I can't make anything work.  I feel completely overwhelmed pretty much all day every day and have for years.  I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing anymore or what limits I'm supposed to be setting or what consequences I'm supposed to be imposing.  It doesn't really matter because nothing helps anyway.

 

I did ask DH to change the combo on the gun safe.

 

Fwiw, I never got much out of the many parenting books I read either.  I had to SEE better parenting IRL.  Even the tiniest glimpse into what other parents were doing that was working beautifully was so very helpful to me.  And I could see it anywhere - mall, stores, at my oldest ds's public school when he was young, etc.  I think that's why so many of us are saying it would probably be helpful to get some IRL help, along with posting here.  

 

And like someone else said, your kids are still very young.  You can definitely help them once you get to a better place yourself. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The reason people are helping, keeping it real, gloves off, is because we DO know. I've noticed very few ivory towers posting the most "real" advice -- the majority have either experienced some aspect of what Caedmyn is going through, or have the professional background to recognize red flags.

 

The advice is about confirming what she knows - that something seems wrong - and encouraging steps toward better days. This is kindness, and caring for one of our own. We will be here through the journey, too (if the OP will keep sharing as she goes, as I hope she will), for the same reasons: experience and love.

[LucyStoner]

Hey guys,

 

Another thing to realize is that she lives in rural Montana with about 3 hours to the nearest bigger city ( not sure how big). At least that is what she said in the learning challenges thread. Plus, it sounds like she doesn't have much support from her husband. Not sure what the answer is....moving in with relatives? I agree that this is only going to get worse with the baby in the mix.

Living rurally may not be viable or feasible for a family with the situation she describes. I get most people can't up and move on a whim but it may well be that they need to take steps to not be so

isolated and far away from services, at least in the near to medium future. Moving is a big deal and a leap of faith but I've known families with minimal means who made it work because they had to for their child. She's got 2 kids she describes has having serious needs. And she herself needs medical care.

 

If her child had cancer, they might need to temporarily or even longer term live in a town with strong pediatric oncology options. Essentially no one would accept that living far away from the hospital was a reasonable explaination for not treating the cancer. The level of crisis she's describing is no less of a problem than cancer and the long term toll of unmet mental and developmental health needs has serious consequences for one's physical health as well.

Edited July 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[goldberry]

((hugs)) to you OP.  It is clear you are reaching a breaking point.  Listen and weigh what others are saying.  Consider whether homeschooling is benefiting your family.  Get help for yourself if you can't for the whole family.  Seek out available services.  You can do this, you are a good enough mother that you are reaching out for help here.  Keep reaching.

[Liz CA]

I think my family would be greatly helped by family therapy (and ABA therapy for my oldest and respite care and support groups for myself, my husband and my 5  year old), but just because those supports are warranted and highly desired does not make them available or remotely affordable.

 

Wendy

 

This is true. I would not give up though. Keep an ear to the ground and network. Find out if someone has sliding scale, is there someone with the necessary knowledge that would be willing to give you some advice and hours pro bono? Keep knocking on the door until something opens. Again - as you said - easier said than done when you have lots on your plate. It may not be an overnight thing but it can remain a goal.

[ondreeuh]

I do have one kid who has a terrible sweet tooth and will eat up all the candy/cookies/whatever.  So we have worked on serving sizes and at times I've portioned out the M&Ms (for example) in a baggie with each person's name on it.  That helped that child regulate, because they would see that others had M&Ms for a week while theirs were all gone in a day.  

 

 

 

We do this with coveted treats, and it gets rid of all the drama. If I buy popsicles, we figure out that each kid gets 4 out of the box. It's up to them when they eat those 4. I bought Oreos recently, and we ate them together, each getting 3 as a serving. If someone didn't want theirs right then, their 3 Oreos went into a baggie for later. Their holiday candy gets put into a labeled Ziplock and I let them self-pace for the most part. Two of my kids will binge on it, and one will make it last for months and months. Ice cream has been the one difficult thing to pace, but recently they each got to pick out their own 1/2 gallon. They had to ask before eating, but if one kid scooped large portions then he ran out before the kid who did smaller scoops. If I get junk cereal, they ALL want that so they each get 2 bowls.

 

Basically, if it's a food that leads to people feeling like they need to eat it before it's gone, then I either divide it up or cap each kid to a certain # of servings. That way they know the food will still be there and they can wait until they are ready for it. They're welcome to spend their own money if they want something for themselves. Somehow they don't take advantage of that offer.

 

[Alessandra]

Op, being overwhelmed is not the same as being a "crappy" mother. Social workers go to school in order to help people in trouble. They, and similar professionals, want to be helpful, not judgemental. I hope you can connect with some services.

 

Schools are a great starting point, because someone there will be able to point you in the right direction. You could start the ball rolling by finding out about enrollment now.

 

If you can get help, things could be very different -- better -- at this time next year. But it sounds as if you have too much on your plate for now.

 

ETA

You may wish to ask the school to evaluate your boys, at least the oldest, for special needs. He sounds unusually destructive. Often, with special needs, normal parenting simply doesn't work. Firm rules, consequences -- all the techniques than can usually help, may simply make no difference. It's possible that you could be dealing with a situation like that. Getting professionals involved can be life changing.

 

I am another one seriously worried about the guns, not just for what the children could do, but you also. Thinking of possible post partum depression, if untreated.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Alessandra

[Farrar]

I really, really tried to ignore this thread b/c I knew some of the responses would be nasty.  I failed.  

 

SproutMama, "it's not working out"?  Have you never felt the things the OP is now writing (and probably in a state of heightened stress)?  You don't know her, and presumably none of us here do.   Let's try to give advice without coming to definitive conclusions about whether her home situation is "working out" or not.   That's her job, not yours.  

 

OP, I was in tears today for this very situation with my 9 year old, who steals special treats she knows are for special occasions (she has plenty of unfettered access to healthy snacks and even some not-so-healthy).  5 hours later, I'm feeling better and have new resolve to make this a teachable moment.  No advice here, and no judgment either.  Praying that you find peace today. 

 

I did see one post that I felt was nasty and I almost called it out, but it really was only one short post on a thread with nearly a hundred pieces of advice and support. I keep thinking about how misread this whole thread was - by the OP and in this post.

 

Having a kid who has destructive tendencies (or any other issue) is not a parent's fault. It's soooo hard not to feel like it is or like people are judging. But on the other hand, refusing to listen to strategies that might help the behavior or issues is a parent's fault. We can only do what we can do - as the OP has posted more, I think we've all realized the issues go deep, she has health issues and possibly mental health issues of her own. We're urging that she get support.

[EmseB]

The OP is not a crappy mom because she needs help. OP, needing help, feeling overwhelmed, not being able to cope...those things do not make you a crappy mom. People here are worried about the immediate safety of your family because of the firearms. Mainly what people are saying is that it is not necessary to do this alone.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh, gosh.  Sorry if that's true.

 

I thought she said she and DH both worked from home.  

 

ETA:  Just searched through the thread.  I didn't see where she said she didn't work (maybe another thread?) but I did see the post that I thought was her, but I was wrong.

 

Someone else said that and I think we maybe confused the two.  It's crazy because I could have sworn the same thing, but no she didn't say that.

[Tanaqui]

The reality is that I'm a crappy mother and the management needs of these children greatly exceed my capacity to manage them.  I have some health problems and trying to do anything that requires divided attention...which is parenting all day long...is really hard.  I also have some sensory issues and dealing with constant noise and movement is very stressful.  I have read at least 50 books on parenting over the last 6 or 7 years.  I have tried so many different things and I can't make anything work.  I feel completely overwhelmed pretty much all day every day and have for years.  I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing anymore or what limits I'm supposed to be setting or what consequences I'm supposed to be imposing.  It doesn't really matter because nothing helps anyway.

 

The bolded part isn't true. Crappy mothers don't care.

 

However, you're definitely overwhelmed, and you need help. First and foremost, you need practical help - a babysitter or relative to come in part of the day. It would be better still if you could enroll the kids in full-time camp during the summer. They certainly need to be in a school come fall. You can't homeschool like this. It's not good for them, and it's really not good for you. You have got to take care of yourself.

 

Secondly, you and your family need counseling. I know it's not always easy to obtain, but it's becoming increasingly clear through your posts that your situation is untenable. Anybody would be frustrated with the way things are going, and it's not your fault.

 

Thirdly, even if one and two can't be done, I strongly suggest you go to the doctor and get evaluated for depression, because that's what this sounds like. I should have put this first, actually. Whatever you do, I want you to promise yourself that as soon as you've finished reading this, you will go call your doctor and make an appointment so you can get a referral.

 

You're not going to really want to do that. Depression lies. It tells you that you deserve to feel bad, and that you can't feel better anyway, so you shouldn't try. And then it makes you weak and confused so you can't fight back. It's like a cursed ring - the best thing to do is toss it in the nearest volcano, but the curse means you don't want to do that. (Except that you can't actually toss depression into a volcano. In this case, the one ring would be vastly preferable.)

 

It's not true, of course. You can feel better, and you deserve to feel better. You deserve to be healthy and awake and there for yourself. And if you tell yourself "Oh, I guess maybe I'll look into it" or "I'll get around to it" then you won't. So. Stop reading, pick up the phone, call the doctor. Don't put it off for even a second, and grab the earliest appointment they've got. Start on that even before you look into counseling options for your family - you have to put your needs first.

[OneStepAtATime]

Your posts break my heart, OP.  I wish I could hug you had help you IRL.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I agree, OP,you are NOT a crappy mother you are an overwhelmed mother with health issues and almost certainly depression.  You have every right to be stressed and unhappy with your situation.  The question now is what to do about it.  

 

All these posts you have made on various WTM forums address individual issues but it is the whole picture that needs to be looked at.  You are not in a place where you can deal with the zillions of issues that are hitting you right now.  You need to take care of you and that means you need help and time and space, something you do not currently have.  I know you are resistant to the kids being in school but unless the Principal is selling the kids into slavery, or something equally heinous, I strongly urge you to just TRY putting the kids in school for now.  If it doesn't work out you can pull them back out again and in the meantime it might give you some breathing space, especially after the baby is born.  

 

YOU NEED A BREAK.  Not for just a couple of hours a week.  You need something more extensive while you try to help YOU.  There is no shame in shelving homeschooling for a while.  It might be a good thing for ALL of you.  The kids would have structure and you would not have to be constantly watching/supervising.  It would give you some breathing space and hopefully some rest.  And public schools can be a lot better than local reputations sometimes imply.  Truly.  

 

Is it your DH that is opposed to putting them in school?  Or ...?

 

Think about it.  Please.  Just start with one step towards helping you.  Look at putting the kids in school.  Try it out.  Then tackle the next thing, which I would suggest would be counseling for you, if you can find a counselor that you feel comfortable with (and I admit that can be a challenge).  Don't let guilt and fear and mental/physical exhaustion lock you up so badly you can't actually move forward (BTDT).  Sometimes making a radical change, even if it can seem like a bad idea, can actually get you moving in a better direction.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  (You are not alone.  There are many who have dealt with your feelings.  You are not a bad mother.  You are an exhausted mother.  Hang in there as best you can but also make a change before this becomes a far worse situation.)

 

 

[KungFuPanda]

This is tough. If you are unwilling or unable to seek counseling for your family or yourself, you might have to make some drastic life changes. If the basic requirements of running a home and family are overwhelming for you, then you shouldn't be attempting to homeschool. It's too much for you and it's OK to admit something is too much for you. Enroll the kids while they're little before they get behind and it's harder. If you can't provide constant structure at home, let the school pogo de some during the day and you pick up at night.

 

Consider doing a Super Nanny marathon. Let the kids watch and discuss it with them. Can they identify poor behavior? Do they have clear rules with clear consistent consequences? Are you physically able to put a kid in time out, set a timer, and talk to them afterwards? If you CAN do it, DO it. You can't shirk just because you don't feel like it. If you are truly, physically unable to cope you need to get help for your sake and the kids'.

 

I don't think ANYONE truly enjoys being needed by multiple people at the same time. We've all wished to clone ourselves on occasion. We've all wished groups of children were quieter. We've all been very relieved when the kids are asleep and the house is quiet. Those nothing wrong with those feelings as long as you're kind to the children and are consistent in their care. Some of it gets easier with older kids, so it's not crazy forever. However, if you drop the ball now you are setting yourself and your kids up for a MUCH harder life. It'll be hard to establish discipline in your household, but once you DO it will be better and easier and happier for everyone.

[MomatHWTK]

The reason people are helping, keeping it real, gloves off, is because we DO know. I've noticed very few ivory towers posting the most "real" advice -- the majority have either experienced some aspect of what Caedmyn is going through, or have the professional background to recognize red flags.

 

The advice is about confirming what she knows - that something seems wrong - and encouraging steps toward better days. This is kindness, and caring for one of our own. We will be here through the journey, too (if the OP will keep sharing as she goes, as I hope she will), for the same reasons: experience and love.

 

Yes, BTDT. Now I take my medicines and have a happy family. PPD, sensory issues, ADHD- we recognize the signs because we've lived the signs and know you can't take yourself out of it. 

 

If momma isn't in good shape, then the kids aren't in good shape. 

 

 

FRT, I never scold a mother who admits she is struggling or that there are issues underlying what is happening. Moms who put the blame on children for what is wrong with their lives, I cannot abide. If OP had said she was overwhelmed, I would have responded with tips for being overwhelmed. 

 

I should have recognized the blaming behavior though- I think this is a depression behavior. When your life feels bad, you start pointing to everything outside as the cause. So you think, if this one thing changed, all would be well. If my DH didn't have X in the house, the kids wouldn't take it. Then everyone piles on the DH. Well, what if there were no sodas? The kids took other things too. If my 7 y.o. didn't do this the other kids wouldn't. That's blaming a child for the trouble in the household- not cool.

 

If life feels so overwhelming that you fixate on one issue and think if that just went away all would be well, there's a good chance that life fixing that one thing won't make the difference. It might help, but there usually is a root cause that makes everything else seem insurmountable.  

 

So yes, those of you who saw the depression are probably right. The reason the older kids aren't affected is because life wasn't overwhelming until the youngers came along. Mom needs to get rest and recover. (Which would be pretty hard unless someone else is caring for the kids or they are in school.)

Edited July 15, 2016 by MomatHWTK

[TranquilMind]

My 7 YO and 5 YO steal/sneak food constantly. The 3 YO has started too. It's a this-tastes-good-and-I-want-it thing, not a hunger thing. They're obsessed with DH's diet pepsi. Taking pop-top canned pears and drinking a little of the juice (they are only strong enough to crack the top, not get it all the way open) and stashing them in bureau drawers for later has been a favorite too. They sneak food every single day, any time there's the opportunity, regardless of when and how much they last ate.

 

They steal money too. I have tried keeping all the money locked up where they can't get it, but somehow they keep finding change. They've stolen money out of my purse a few times too, stolen money off DH's desk. We've tried letting them have some quarters to carry around and play with...but they keep getting more somehow, bicker over them, and still try to take whatever other money they can find.

 

The 7 yo has stolen candy from a store twice in the last 6 weeks. Both times he had to return it and apologize. Today he stole a seashell from the babysitter's house. And then gave it to the girl next door so now I have to convince her to return it so he can return it.

 

We have tried any number of consequences and they just could not care less.

 

I found an old thread here about stealing food and it seemed like the big suggestion was to let them have free access to whatever food was in the house. I don't know if I'm willing to do this, because they have no self control. They would take all the pop in the fridge (DH will not stop buying it). They would take every last piece of fruit, all the nuts, basically whatever sounded good and eat it all in one day. DH likes to cook up a bunch of bacon at once and save it for salad toppings for a few days. They would clean it out. This is just not reasonable nor fair to other people in the house. Also, they all have some food intolerances, particularly the 3 yo who has food-intolerance-related reflux, and the reality is that they simply can't have every single item of food in the house. I will not restrict everyone to only the foods the 3yo can eat (btdt for too many years...no more). DH buys a lot of things everyone else has problems with, and this isn't going to change either. What else can I do? I'd be willing to let them have free access to some food if they would limit themselves to what I make available.

I don't know what to say about the money or items from other people, because that seems odd that such young children would do that.

But I think most children might go through a phase of trying to get those brownies or cookies, if they know you have some.  I think you will just have to stick to them like glue right now and give them regular healthy snacks.  I hope you get some advice on the other stuff. 

 

(Mine who was constantly getting into the food is a health nut now who works out and doesn't even touch that stuff.  So that wasn't a big deal).

Hope you find answers. 

[TranquilMind]

Wait, WHAT?! You lock up FOOD in your GUN SAFE?!

 

Gently, I agree that it sounds like family therapy might be a good idea.

 

And please, change the combination to the safe ASAP.

 

What?  Yeah, I wouldn't buy anything you have to lock up.  Buy only healthy foods for awhile anyway.  And watch them like hawks.  This doesn't sound like it is about food anyway, given all you have said (the OP, that is). 

[StephanieZ]

The reality is that I'm a crappy mother and the management needs of these children greatly exceed my capacity to manage them.  I have some health problems and trying to do anything that requires divided attention...which is parenting all day long...is really hard.  I also have some sensory issues and dealing with constant noise and movement is very stressful.  I have read at least 50 books on parenting over the last 6 or 7 years.  I have tried so many different things and I can't make anything work.  I feel completely overwhelmed pretty much all day every day and have for years.  I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing anymore or what limits I'm supposed to be setting or what consequences I'm supposed to be imposing.  It doesn't really matter because nothing helps anyway.

 

I did ask DH to change the combo on the gun safe.

 

I know this is generally out of line for a stranger to suggest, but I feel your situation is so critical that I am crossing that line . . . May I respectfully suggest that you consider why you are expecting another child when you feel this way? Perhaps you are depressed and medications and/or therapy could help you feel (and be) more in control and more in love with your children and your life? You sound really depressed and lost. Did you feel this way before this pregnancy? If so, please evaluate whether it is in the best interests of your large family to add any more children (after this one!) to your family, as I think it is morally imperative to prioritize proper care, attention, medical/therapy care, etc to the children you already have (and yourself), and obviously you are beyond your limit already. 

 

If your husband is not helpful and is also pressuring you to have many children, I'd urge you to consider if he is abusing you and/or if you could benefit from resources for abused spouses. I can't imagine a good, mentally sound, husband encouraging (or even allowing) his wife to get pregnant again with 4 young children who are already out of control. To me, that alone raises huge warning flags. Honestly, your story reminds me of the stories of homeschooling moms who end up killing their children in seemingly bizarre acts. Your feelings of helplessness and hopelessness scare me. 

 

Please reach out to your parents if they are decent people or other mentors (aunts, inlaws, etc.) who might be able to help guide you and help you. You might find someone who is willing to help if only you ask.

 

I'd also strongly encourage you to enroll your school-age children in a brick-and-mortar school this fall. It's time right now to enroll kids. Presumably your 5, 7, and 10 year olds are eligible for public schools, or for sure the 7 & 10 year olds. The 5 year old might qualify for special services even if normal public school doesn't start yet. This would get them safely supervised (and worn out!) during the school days, allowing you to focus on your youngest children and new baby. I love homeschooling, but I know it's not for every family at every season. Take home schooling off your plate so you can focus on enjoying and raising your children!! 

 

And, please, please consider effective birth control after this next baby to ensure you don't add more to your plate. Even if you have a religious calling to have many children, I'd imagine that nearly all decent religious leaders would allow an exception for effective birth control given the circumstances. Your entire family is in jeopardy. And, if you are in a church that demands you have unlimited children, then, in my opinion, it is the duty of that church family to support and help you, so reach out to the leader in your church and to older moms who you respect for help. If they won't help, then I think you should reassess your religion and find a new church. (I'm not a religious person, but I am just guessing that you might feel religiously called to have so many children when you are already overwhelmed. If you aren't religiously/morally called to have many children, then for sure, get an IUD or some other very effective long term birth control ASAP after your next birth.)

 

Your OBGYN and/or pediatrician and/or your personal family doctor are all people to reach out to for help finding appropriate support. 

 

Please get some help. (((hugs)))