A Mother's Reckoning

[DawnM]

I watched part of the interview the other night and something she said really struck me... 

_{“I want people to be aware that things can seem awfully right when things are terribly, terribly wrong,†she said.}

 

That was unsettling to me.  It isn't something you want to think about - but it could certainly (and has) happened over and over and over again... Parents not suspecting.  I think we, as parents in this time period, can't see the line between respect and checking up on our kids.  Our children have a *reasonable* expectation of privacy and respect, however, not telling me where/what you're doing is simply unacceptable and if I'm looking for a sock, I could and will look under your bed and in your closet.  That's reasonable.  

 

I thought this was interesting.

My first thought was ... that somehow Eric had done something that turned into something else.

 

Psychologists have now said that it appears Eric was a psychopath and that the other one, her son, was just depressed and suicidal - a willing participant to keep a friend?  Hm.  That's scary to me - that a child can be so wrapped up in another, so dependent, so fearful of being alone that they would do something horrific.

 

I wonder - is this a bigger picture of the fact that we herd children together into groups of peers from a very early age so that they can't imagine themselves without a group, without a peer to relate to?

 

I don't know.  I hurt for her, the other mothers, the parents, the siblings, the teachers.  I can't imagine being a teacher in this day, this age....

 

 

I don't think this is the case and I certainly wouldn't say this is BECAUSE he is in school vs. homeschooling.  We are humans.  We want to belong.  We want to have fellowship with others.  It is the way we are wired.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2016 by DawnM

[ktgrok]

Yes, he was in a diversion program, but it was for stealing electronics out of a van, not hurting anyone. That is a huge difference. LOTS of kids steal, very very very very few become mass murderers. That she should have know that the kids was going to hurt someone because he stole electronics makes no  sense. 

 

Also, he was released from the program early, and only a few months before the shooting was praised by his diversion program for how great a kid he was. So yeah, I could see her thinking he'd moved on and learned his lesson. 

 

As for the story, it was disturbing but she admits she very well might not have taken it seriously had she read it at the time....she might have considered it a metaphor or escapism. In hindsight it is seen differently but in a world full of dystopian novels and movies I can see her point. 

 

Other than that...no one thinks this will happen to them. He wasn't threatening people. He wasn't behaving violently. She made mistakes and admits that. But I don't think she was a bad parent or was that different from any of us. 

[TranquilMind]

I find it... I can't find the words, so I'm just going to type and I'm sure offend someone. I think the idea that there were no signs is rationalization on her part, designed to assuage her own guilt.  Of course she had no idea what the signs meant, but there were signs, they were very clear and repeated...  he was in a diversion program because he was at risk of severe crime!  His teachers said his papers were disturbing.

 

I won't read the book.  I feel like I already have a good grasp on what the signs are, and while she's not guilty of her son's crimes, she is guilty of bad parenting. I can't imagine having that many signs - diversion programs and concerned teachers - and not going through every possession and notebook he had, finding the additional warnings, getting him out of that school and into a hospital. And frankly, I feel entitled to make that judgment of her because we have had severe mental illness in the family and we would never have let it get that far with a teenager who we still had legal control over. Perhaps that's not fair.  Perhaps it's rationalization on my part. I don't think so though.  I think you can either face something like that straight on when you realize you have a problem, or you can bury your head and let things play out as if you don't care. She choose to bury her head. Frankly, I don't want to funnel money to her, or to a publishing company who thinks this is the sort of thing that should be released, any more than I would buy the book of a murderer.

 

Go ahead, flame away.

I saw the interview.  I don't think she claims that there were no signs.  I think she claims that they responded to each sign as well as they could at the time, hoping that it would now be over and that he would grow up normally.    And it wasn't.

 

I really feel for her, actually.  There but for the grace of God...

 

You could have faced your situation head on and it still could have gone wrong (but I am glad it didn't).  

 

But yeah, I agree that I would have scoured every item he owned on a regular basis.

 

All of the proceeds go to victims, the progam said. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

Yes, he was in a diversion program, but it was for stealing electronics out of a van, not hurting anyone. That is a huge difference. LOTS of kids steal, very very very very few become mass murderers. That she should have know that the kids was going to hurt someone because he stole electronics makes no  sense. 

 

Also, he was released from the program early, and only a few months before the shooting was praised by his diversion program for how great a kid he was. So yeah, I could see her thinking he'd moved on and learned his lesson. 

 

As for the story, it was disturbing but she admits she very well might not have taken it seriously had she read it at the time....she might have considered it a metaphor or escapism. In hindsight it is seen differently but in a world full of dystopian novels and movies I can see her point. 

 

Other than that...no one thinks this will happen to them. He wasn't threatening people. He wasn't behaving violently. She made mistakes and admits that. But I don't think she was a bad parent or was that different from any of us. 

Yes, exactly. Parents are nothing if not eternally hopeful. 

 

And yes, in this world of disgusting filth and violence in movies, I can see a parent even thinking, "Oh, that's dark, but my kid is so imaginative!", thinking she has the next Stephen King on her hands. 

 

To think she is far different than any of us is delusional, I think.  And I don't want to find out first hand! 

[maize]

There was a girl in my English class in high school who wrote awfully dark stuff, bloody stuff, for class.

 

She didn't murder anyone. She won the English department award for the year.

 

Mental health challenges and mental health care are really, really hard to navigate; with 20/20 hindsight sure we can say the signs were there, but blaming a parent for not recognizing and adequately addressing them at the time? Nope. I'm with those who acknowledge it could happen to me. It could happen to any parent.

[ThisIsTheDay]

. . .

Not surprisingly, a large number of mine and DH's peers are opting to homeschool. Columbine is very tied up in that decision for many of us. I'd love to read the mother's story in depth but I think I'd need a bit more separation from those events and that time period to handle it emotionally.

 

I find this interesting. We lived one high school over. My oldest did begin public school the following year.  When we withdrew to homeschool in first grade, many people assumed it was related to Columbine.

 

But one of the things I took away from Columbine is that this kind of mass killing can happen ANYWHERE.  I clearly remember shopping at King Soopers in the days following, realizing I should have an escape plan JUST IN CASE.  I considered escape options at the mall, at the library.  There was such an overwhelming sense of grief and sadness.  My husband eventually got his concealed carry permit.  We've seen similar shootings in malls and movie theaters, other very public places.  My children aren't safer because they are at home.

 

Manda, I can't tell from your post if you were/are local or not.  I hesitate to say this, because of course there is no comparison--but for me, personally, Columbine had a much deeper impact on my life than 9/11.  Living 2000 miles away, watching events unfold in NYC, DC/VA, and PA, was surreal. I didn't know those places and had no connections. 

 

Like you, I need more separation, but I still don't know if there will ever be enough.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I find it... I can't find the words, so I'm just going to type and I'm sure offend someone. I think the idea that there were no signs is rationalization on her part, designed to assuage her own guilt.  Of course she had no idea what the signs meant, but there were signs, they were very clear and repeated...  he was in a diversion program because he was at risk of severe crime!  His teachers said his papers were disturbing.

 

I won't read the book.  I feel like I already have a good grasp on what the signs are, and while she's not guilty of her son's crimes, she is guilty of bad parenting. I can't imagine having that many signs - diversion programs and concerned teachers - and not going through every possession and notebook he had, finding the additional warnings, getting him out of that school and into a hospital. And frankly, I feel entitled to make that judgment of her because we have had severe mental illness in the family and we would never have let it get that far with a teenager who we still had legal control over. Perhaps that's not fair.  Perhaps it's rationalization on my part. I don't think so though.  I think you can either face something like that straight on when you realize you have a problem, or you can bury your head and let things play out as if you don't care. She choose to bury her head. Frankly, I don't want to funnel money to her, or to a publishing company who thinks this is the sort of thing that should be released, any more than I would buy the book of a murderer.

 

Go ahead, flame away.

 

Surprisingly sometimes the people closest to someone are the last ones to realize something is not right.  I grew up with several family members who had a mental illness.  I remember once my dad had a particularly bad episode.  His crazy behaviors went on for quite some time before it escalated into very bad (not criminally bad thankfully).  Looking back we all thought how could we miss that!?  We did.  You'd be surprised how easy it is to miss.  And with teens in particular it's extra difficult because they often do go through some odd spells or do stuff we are not sure about.

 

I'm not going to flame.  You feel how you feel, but if you haven't walked in another person's shoes can you really know for sure what the deal is? 

 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

I think it's very common for parents not to see what is really going on with their child, or how serious it is. The closer you are to someone, the harder it is to step back and see the whole picture.

 

 

People need/want someone to blame. A mother is an easy target.

 

I feel so bad for her, there is no "right" thing she can do.

[Home'scool]

^{I remember reading the article she wrote for the Oprah magazine. In one part she wrote that she remembers, a few weeks before the massacre, holding his face in her hands and feeling his scruffy beard and telling him that she loved him and how wonderful he was.}

 

^{It struck me that any mother that has a 17 year old boy that she can hold like that and speak to like that would feel like she had a close relationship with. Not every 17 year old will let their mother do that. I think Dylan was in a lot of ways leading a double life. He was progressing along like he was going to go to college, yet he was planning this event and to kill himself.}

 

^{It was painful to watch the interview. The pain that woman carries every day is visible.}

 

 

[Chelli]

If you watch the interview she did with 20/20, it becomes clear that it wasn't just her that missed the signs. The police had received reports that something was off. The teacher who called about the disturbing paper told the mom that she would show the paper to the school guidance counselor and get back with her if the counselor felt it warranted further investigation. They never called back so Mrs. Klebold assumed things were fine. In the interview she also talks about how difficult it is to use the words murder and murderer when talking about the events that day. She acknowledges that these are the correct terms, but she finds herself unconsciously using other words as a form of self protection.

 

I have nothing but sympathy and compassion for her. What a horrible reality to live with day in and day out.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think it's very common for parents not to see what is really going on with their child, or how serious it is. The closer you are to someone, the harder it is to step back and see the whole picture.

 

 

People need/want someone to blame. A mother is an easy target.

 

I feel so bad for her, there is no "right" thing she can do.

 

The mother is always the one blamed the hardest.  Always.  Which is bull. 

 

I wonder if I'll get all the credit too if my kids turn out well.  I won't hold my breath.

 

Kids hide stuff from their parents too.  I know I did.  Plus let's get real here, even if there were signs he was troubled or mentally ill it does not mean he is automatically going to turn into a mass murderer.  That is still a relatively rare reaction.  And given that, what exactly are the signs one will do something like that?  I've seen family members in a very bad way and not once did they hurt anyone.

[goldberry]

 

"Letting it get that far" makes it sound like parental control and effort is always going to work. Even trying to get a child into hospital is not as simple as you make it sound. 

 

I have a friend who has a very disturbed son. We are talking about self-harm, animal harm, threats to others.  You would think in this day and age, there would be some system in place to deal with this, but there is not.

 

KATY:  He has been hospitalized.  They keep sending him home.  He is in therapy, but getting close to the age he can no longer be forced.  The parents are locking sibling's doors at night to keep pets and siblings safe.  You would be shocked at how little help they are getting and how little recourse they have.  I am not flaming you, but I think you may be a little naive about the situation.

[bettyandbob]

We always here about a child turning into a great person/model citizen DESPITE parents. Rarely is a parent credited for a child's achievements. However, parents are first to get the BLAME when stuff is bad.

 

Sure there are circumstances where a parent's decisions were just bad for the child. However, many parents make the best sections they can make based on the information they have and resources available. Usually, the results are OK. Sometimes, everything goes terribly wrong. That is what I think happened to these parents. I don't think they actively ignored warnings. You have to evaluate everything together. On any given day something could be a warning or just a benign event and the parent and professionals available need to decide what it is based on the circumstances at that moment.

 

Unless you really lived it, you can't know.

[Guest]

I ave not read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned...

 

Far From The Tree by Solomon is a book that touches on some of the things being talked about here. It's very good.

[goldberry]

I hope that you're not dealing with the criminal psychopathy she described as being quite clear in her son. Most mentally ill people, especially women, are much more likely to hurt themselves than someone else.  If you are dealing with criminal psychopathy, I hope you'll have the courage to call the police and get police intervention 

 

 

Katy...my friend with the disturbed child HAS in fact involved the police and every other agency possible.  He gets committed for a few days and then sent home, because he has yet to actually harm a PERSON.  The system is broken.  I think that this woman telling her story will only help to get this issue more out in the open.

[clementine]

I watched the interview and my heart broke for her.  She will forever blame herself and have to live with this tragedy for the rest of her life.  I applaud the fact that she opened up and I hope she helped at least one family out there that might be missing the signs of depression or madness.  

 

I can't imagine what she is going through.  I can't imagine what the victims and their families are going through.  I hope to goodness that they do not put the blame on her.  

[gardenmom5]

It is so very, very difficult to find good mental health care, even if one is totally aware of the problem and parents and teen/young adult are open to receiving the care. Well, medications are less difficult to obtain, though they may or may not be appropriate, and likely will not be adequately monitored for effectiveness. But good luck finding quality, on-going, goal-oriented therapy.

 

We struggled tremendously finding care for our non-violent daughter, even with decent insurance, backgrounds as medical professionals, and having all the tools to research our options; even now we pay out of pocket for the not-quite-adequate care situation we found, and spent over 6 months on a waiting list to get her into it.

 

I became well aware of how much more difficult it would have been had our daughter been a son, and particularly if there was any indicator of violent tendencies.

 

And I also have had the experience of people automatically blaming me, as the mother, for my daughter's troubles. You develop a thick skin to an extent, though you are regularly "what-if"ing yourself too.

 

In the end though, it amazes me that any of our troubled youth become healthy in adulthood. The tools to help them are just not readily available.

 

I spoke with a mother in the grocery store today about her own struggles to find care for her daughter. She had tears in her eyes; she was grieving for the loss of her daughter's emotional health and grappling with the reality of the difficulty of finding help to achieve wellness. And, again, this is finding help for a non-violent young woman.

 

I have another dear friend who tried for years to get help for her son as he developed signs of mental illness. All hope is lost now. The prison system has him.

 

It's a huge problem, and I'm glad this mother is telling her story. I wish we could all tell our stories, as the problem is common, more common than most people realize. Maybe answers would become more readily apparent.

 

I have an aspie -I've heard the bolded so. many. times. . . .

I have a child with a mood disorder.  for years, dr's just wanted to call it depression and rx antidepressants. that's the lazy way to deal with that.  and unless someone IS depressed - they dont' work.  even if they are - they may or may NOT work. or only for a short time before needing to try something else.

I've a friend whose dss, is schizophrenic.  they are constantly having to change rx because they stop working.  he's an adult - and wants to be helped so he sticks with her.  it also saddens her  to realize her teen  daughter is more competent than he will probably ever be.

 

I find this interesting. We lived one high school over. My oldest did begin public school the following year.  When we withdrew to homeschool in first grade, many people assumed it was related to Columbine.

 

But one of the things I took away from Columbine is that this kind of mass killing can happen ANYWHERE.  I clearly remember shopping at King Soopers in the days following, realizing I should have an escape plan JUST IN CASE.  I considered escape options at the mall, at the library.  There was such an overwhelming sense of grief and sadness.  My husband eventually got his concealed carry permit.  We've seen similar shootings in malls and movie theaters, other very public places.  My children aren't safer because they are at home.

 

Manda, I can't tell from your post if you were/are local or not.  I hesitate to say this, because of course there is no comparison--but for me, personally, Columbine had a much deeper impact on my life than 9/11.  Living 2000 miles away, watching events unfold in NYC, DC/VA, and PA, was surreal. I didn't know those places and had no connections. 

 

Like you, I need more separation, but I still don't know if there will ever be enough.

1dd was in high school in 99.  she was in college in NY in 2001.  her college shut down for several days, they lost alumni, staff and students lost family.  one student lost a parent.  it has not changed her life.  2dd has a good friend from college who was in high school in lower manhatten just a few blocks away, - it has not changed his life.

just over a year ago, we had a high school shooting in a school not far from here. the gunman did kill himself too.

 it hasn't changed anything for us.

- if you change your life - the terrorists/attackers win.

 

besides, car accidents are much more likely to happen.

 

If you watch the interview she did with 20/20, it becomes clear that it wasn't just her that missed the signs. The police had received reports that something was off. The teacher who called about the disturbing paper told the mom that she would show the paper to the school guidance counselor and get back with her if the counselor felt it warranted further investigation. They never called back so Mrs. Klebold assumed things were fine. In the interview she also talks about how difficult it is to use the words murder and murderer when talking about the events that day. She acknowledges that these are the correct terms, but she finds herself unconsciously using other words as a form of self protection.

 

I have nothing but sympathy and compassion for her. What a horrible reality to live with day in and day out.

I really liked something anne marie hochhalter said: "bitterness is a poison pill you take hoping the other person will die."

her life has been changed forever, but she has nothing but compassion and kind thoughts for sue klebold.

[ThisIsTheDay]

 

1dd was in high school in 99.  she was in college in NY in 2001.  her college shut down for several days, they lost alumni, staff and students lost family.  one student lost a parent.  it has not changed her life.  2dd has a good friend from college who was in high school in lower manhatten just a few blocks away, - it has not changed his life.

just over a year ago, we had a high school shooting in a school not far from here. the gunman did kill himself too.

 it hasn't changed anything for us.

- if you change your life - the terrorists/attackers win.

 

besides, car accidents are much more likely to happen.

 

 

I didn't change my life.  It changed me,  and there is a world of difference between the two.  Nobody "wins." It affected me profoundly, deeply, because I realized that any sense of security you have in a place where you feel comfortable is only imagined. 

 

I don't think you meant this to come across as it did, that I am somehow weak or scared.  Not in the least.  It's just the realization that EVERYthing can change in an instant.  The pain that the shootings caused will last for decades (in a general sense, not personal).

 

I find it hard to believe that 9/11 had zero effect on the people you mentioned above. Sure, maybe it didn't change their life, but how could it not affect them somehow?  How could it not, in such a situation??

 

[fairfarmhand]

I just listened to an interview on NPR with Ms. Klebold.

 

Heartbreaking.

 

http://www.npr.org/2016/02/16/466618817/sue-klebold-mother-of-columbine-shooter-carries-him-everywhere-i-go-always

[SparklyUnicorn]

I didn't change my life.  It changed me,  and there is a world of difference between the two.  Nobody "wins." It affected me profoundly, deeply, because I realized that any sense of security you have in a place where you feel comfortable is only imagined. 

 

I don't think you meant this to come across as it did, that I am somehow weak or scared.  Not in the least.  It's just the realization that EVERYthing can change in an instant.  The pain that the shootings caused will last for decades (in a general sense, not personal).

 

I find it hard to believe that 9/11 had zero effect on the people you mentioned above. Sure, maybe it didn't change their life, but how could it not affect them somehow?  How could it not, in such a situation??

 

 

Yeah there are a few places in life that seem off limits.  Your home...your school, etc.  But bad stuff can happen anywhere and if it does happen in your safe places that must be very difficult to come to terms with.

[Caroline]

I just listened to an interview on NPR with Ms. Klebold.

 

Heartbreaking.

 

http://www.npr.org/2016/02/16/466618817/sue-klebold-mother-of-columbine-shooter-carries-him-everywhere-i-go-always

This quote really got to me...

 

"I knew that if people believed that someone who was going to do something as heinous as Dylan did, acted openly as Dylan did in that tape, they would develop a false sense of security to be able to say, "My loved one doesn't act like that, therefore I am safe. My loved one is not at risk." And I think for me, that was one of the most dangerous things about these tapes is to realize, this was not his [affectation] on a daily level, this was the two of them acting, doing theater, doing a performance, in front of a videotape, and it would be very deceptive to release that kind of information and have people expect to see behavior like that when someone was very disturbed, because that is not the truth."

[gardenmom5]

I didn't change my life. It changed me, and there is a world of difference between the two. Nobody "wins." It affected me profoundly, deeply, because I realized that any sense of security you have in a place where you feel comfortable is only imagined.

 

I don't think you meant this to come across as it did, that I am somehow weak or scared. Not in the least. It's just the realization that EVERYthing can change in an instant. The pain that the shootings caused will last for decades (in a general sense, not personal).

 

I find it hard to believe that 9/11 had zero effect on the people you mentioned above. Sure, maybe it didn't change their life, but how could it not affect them somehow? How could it not, in such a situation??

 

No, I didn't mean it that way. Thank you for the benefit of the doubt.

You were young in 99 and you got that lesson (I'm sorry. Teens shouldn't have to face such things) - I was the mother teens and already knew how fast life could change. It was less of a shock that way. I learned that when I was 12 and my beloved father od'd. My life changed in an instant, and could never be the same.

I'm on a phone and headed out so I can't fully reply. Hopefully later. . . Not sure how the Internet will be at the other end. . .

[Bluegoat]

Yes, he was in a diversion program, but it was for stealing electronics out of a van, not hurting anyone. That is a huge difference. LOTS of kids steal, very very very very few become mass murderers. That she should have know that the kids was going to hurt someone because he stole electronics makes no  sense. 

 

Also, he was released from the program early, and only a few months before the shooting was praised by his diversion program for how great a kid he was. So yeah, I could see her thinking he'd moved on and learned his lesson. 

 

As for the story, it was disturbing but she admits she very well might not have taken it seriously had she read it at the time....she might have considered it a metaphor or escapism. In hindsight it is seen differently but in a world full of dystopian novels and movies I can see her point. 

 

Other than that...no one thinks this will happen to them. He wasn't threatening people. He wasn't behaving violently. She made mistakes and admits that. But I don't think she was a bad parent or was that different from any of us. 

 

Yes, there is a huge difference between stealing something and assaulting someone, much less mass murder.  I doubt there are many parents or people who would make that leap.  And really, they would be right not to do so - most kids who seal and are depressed never hurt people or commit a mass murder.

 

Sometimes people just do things you could never predict.  Their thinking becomes wrong, but most people are pretty good at hiding their wrong thinking.

[ThisIsTheDay]

No, I didn't mean it that way. Thank you for the benefit of the doubt.

You were young in 99 and you got that lesson (I'm sorry. Teens shouldn't have to face such things) - I was the mother teens and already knew how fast life could change. It was less of a shock that way. I learned that when I was 12 and my beloved father od'd. My life changed in an instant, and could never be the same.

I'm on a phone and headed out so I can't fully reply. Hopefully later. . . Not sure how the Internet will be at the other end. . .

 

LOL, I was in my mid 30s.  :D

[plansrme]

This quote really got to me...

 

"I knew that if people believed that someone who was going to do something as heinous as Dylan did, acted openly as Dylan did in that tape, they would develop a false sense of security to be able to say, "My loved one doesn't act like that, therefore I am safe. My loved one is not at risk." And I think for me, that was one of the most dangerous things about these tapes is to realize, this was not his [affectation] on a daily level, this was the two of them acting, doing theater, doing a performance, in front of a videotape, and it would be very deceptive to release that kind of information and have people expect to see behavior like that when someone was very disturbed, because that is not the truth."

I did not hear much of this interview (on Fresh Air), but I did hear this and also found it pretty compelling.

[LibraryLover]

1999. What parent would be thinking something this horrendous was in the works.  Depression in teens is common, but where do you get to the place where you believe your child is plotting mass murder?  They did try to get help, and he was arrested for the theft. They didn't try to get him off. They faced that.  I think knowing what they knew, what they did made sense. It doesn't mean people were not gravely harmed, but what  could they have done to prevent this, beyond wishing for a crystal ball or time machine?  Could any of us imagine mass murder as the outcome here?   I've made terrible mistakes as a parent. Who doesn't make mistakes?  My brother, who has never harmed anyone,  once built a potato gun.  He could have been making a bomb in the basement (he wasn't/didn't) but why would any of us have considered that back then?  We didn't realize he was creating the Mercedes Benz of potato guns until he showed us,  and then his video of it in action in a large field.  It honestly just looked like a bunch of *stuff* - and my brother always liked gadgets, screws, tools,  and *stuff* from the time he was a little guy.  My parents gave him old radios etc to take apart. Lots of parents do that. Some kids build stuff in the garage/basement. Some of those kids end up at MIT. I don't know how Klebod or any of us are expected to predict/assume carnage as the outcome of teen depression

Edited February 16, 2016 by LibraryLover

[Guest]

Looking back on that event, it seems like it was The Event that opened America's eyes to the fact that this could happen.  Before the seminal event, how does one imagine it?  It made us all more watchful...no, we didn't all bring our kids home to homeschool, but we did talk to the school boards to find out how they were going to deal with this and make it not happen in our schools.  It made us more watchful as parents, at least those who had the charity to believe the Klebolds back in the day when they said they had no idea about what was going on.  Because a lot of parents who had had no idea suddenly took odd behavior in their children a little more seriously.  People who blew off the Klebolds as bad parents didn't learn much from the tragedy...the blame was assigned and localized, and no one else had to change or see things differently.  Because things were different from what we had always known them to be.

 

I had taught in that school district and my favorite substitute was by then a teacher at Columbine.  She was seriously traumatized; I don't know that she ever taught again.  

 

These things have to affect us.  Bringing up the 9/11--yes, it was far away from where I live, but for the first time in my life, and still to this day, I am jumpy when I hear a plane go overhead, and when one is passing over our city, I watch to see where it is going.  Another seminal event.  Things changed.  

 

 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

I find it hard to believe that 9/11 had zero effect on the people you mentioned above. Sure, maybe it didn't change their life, but how could it not affect them somehow? How could it not, in such a situation??

now I'm where we were going. . .
2dd's friend still lives and works in lower manhatten.
1dd doesn't understand why 9 11 should have an impact on her when she has things in the here and now with which to deal. Even when she was still in ny, she had far more pressing things. When she came home at Christmas 2001, all she was talking about was going through withdrawal over trees, mountains, and undergrowth. . She didn't spend time thinking about it let alone talking about it. It had no influence on subsequent choices she made.

 

 

eta: so nice to be back on my laptop and have the keys I need to do html formatting . . . . (after accidently deleting one . . . . )

Edited February 18, 2016 by gardenmom5

[maize]

 

 

 

I find it hard to believe that 9/11 had zero effect on the people you mentioned above. Sure, maybe it didn't change their life, but how could it not affect them somehow? How could it not, in such a situation??

[/quote.)

now I'm where we were going. . .

2dd's friend still lives and works in lower manhatten.

1dd doesn't understand why 9 11 should have an impact on her when she has things in the here and now with which to deal. Even when she was still in ny, she had far more pressing things. When she came home at Christmas 2001, all she was talking about was going through withdrawal over trees, mountains, and undergrowth. . She didn't spend time thinking about it let alone talking about it. It had no influence on subsequent choices she made.

 

I'm the type who doesn't usually have big emotional reactions to things so I understand how this is possible.

 

That doesn't change the reality of others' reactions though. I understand that specific traumatic events can in fact change a person's life even if they were not a person immediately impacted by the event. They can change our view of the world, they can change our sense of security, they can even change our brains.

[Jenny in Florida]

But still, the idea that she couldn't have done something more, that she is completely blameless?  I find it infuriating.  Infuriating.  And frankly until I heard about this book I felt nothing but pity for her. Making money out of this tragedy, writing mass murder off in her head as nothing more than exacerbated suicide?  It's sickening.

 

One more time: Proceeds. Are. Going. To. Charity.

 

This is not a money-making scheme.

 

Even from reading the book review, it is clear to me that she never says she is blameless.

 

Geez.

[Jenny in Florida]

I think it's very common for parents not to see what is really going on with their child, or how serious it is. The closer you are to someone, the harder it is to step back and see the whole picture.

 

 

Exactly. And in this case, even the professionals who had been involved with her son failed to see how big his problems were. 

[FloridaLisa]

A few notes:

 

I won't read the book b/c I take on other's people's emotions too easily and this would seriously stay with me.  But, I think hers is a valuable voice in the whole discussion, especially as society is looking for answers and ways to tackle these issues. 

 

I wonder, as a mom, how much more distance she could have put between her son and Eric. I know that if one of my children was getting into trouble over and over with another particular child, I would do the things I could to re-direct. I know that's not always possible, but in my own parenting, I've kept an eye on friendships and created lots of space and redirection through circumstances, getting my kids involved in other activities, stepping up family activities, etc. I had a beloved pastor who resigned his large church and up and moved his family to get his son away from a group of friends. It was a huge career sacrifice; huge, but it was also a huge lifesaver for his child. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

LOL, I was in my mid 30s.  :D

 

That's very young.

 

:coolgleamA:

[SparklyUnicorn]

One more time: Proceeds. Are. Going. To. Charity.

 

This is not a money-making scheme.

 

Even from reading the book review, it is clear to me that she never says she is blameless.

 

Geez.

 

I think it's pretty brave of her.  I couldn't write such a book.

[gardenmom5]

ame="gardenmom5" post="6843108" timestamp="1455728368"]

 

 

 

I'm the type who doesn't usually have big emotional reactions to things so I understand how this is possible.

 

That doesn't change the reality of others' reactions though. I understand that specific traumatic events can in fact change a person's life even if they were not a person immediately impacted by the event. They can change our view of the world, they can change our sense of security, they can even change our brains.

And vis versa - some people's reactions doesn't mean others must have the same degree or even any reaction.

 

I will always smile at the memory of (and be sympathetic to.) a woman being distressed at her dh being unemployed for three weeks. No kids, no mortgage.

Words cannot express how glad I was dh was working or I probably would have walked out. (Which would have been as restrained as possible. We were in a very large group and it would have drawn attention.) It was six months after we got done with 18 MONTHS of unemployment with four kids and a mortgage.

That she did less than 1/18 of what we did, doesn't mean her experience wasn't stressful for her.

Edited February 17, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

LOL, I was in my mid 30s. :D

I got you mixed up with some one else who spoke of being in high school at the time. Sorry.

[GoodGrief]

A few notes:

 

I won't read the book b/c I take on other's people's emotions too easily and this would seriously stay with me.  But, I think hers is a valuable voice in the whole discussion, especially as society is looking for answers and ways to tackle these issues. 

 

I wonder, as a mom, how much more distance she could have put between her son and Eric. I know that if one of my children was getting into trouble over and over with another particular child, I would do the things I could to re-direct. I know that's not always possible, but in my own parenting, I've kept an eye on friendships and created lots of space and redirection through circumstances, getting my kids involved in other activities, stepping up family activities, etc. I had a beloved pastor who resigned his large church and up and moved his family to get his son away from a group of friends. It was a huge career sacrifice; huge, but it was also a huge lifesaver for his child. 

 

I think that's probably one of those things that by the time you figure out the "right" answer, it's too late. I'm sure she's asked herself the same question over and over.

 

[PrincessMommy]

Where is your compassion for me?

 

No, I wouldn't throw a stone.  But I also wouldn't be selling a book about the things I did wrong, the ways I could have prevented this, while simultaneously refusing to take responsibility for my own actions or lack thereof. 

 

Wait... you said you wouldn't read the book.  How do you know she hasn't taken responsibility?

 

I've heard two interviews with Ms. Klebold... and she HAS taken responsibility for her actions or lack thereof.  That is why she wrote the book - to take responsibility and educate other parents/educators about the warning signs.    I think most of the interview was about all the warning signs they missed and wished they'd realized were as serious as they were.  Pre-Columbine a lot of rhetoric around was that mass killers came from abusive families...so it was easy to lull ourselves into a fairy tale that if you're loving enough your kids will turn out okay.

 

It is not dissimilar to the way homeschoolers in the early days talked about how homeschooling would fix any learning difficulties and social/mental health issues your kids had from being in the big bad public school.   I remember being told that if I just waited until they were 10-11 my non reader would suddenly catch on.. it was all the pushing too early to teach them to read that was the problem.  Yeah, ummm. no. 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by PrincessMommy

[PrincessMommy]

I think that's probably one of those things that by the time you figure out the "right" answer, it's too late. I'm sure she's asked herself the same question over and over.

 

 

Yup.  One mantra of parenting is: "You don't know if you did it right or wrong until it's too late."

[Entropymama]

You know, I used to think differently about parenting, before my older two reached the teen years. I still believe parenting is a huge factor, but I've come face to face with the hard fact that these are people, with their own minds and thoughts and beliefs. There is a huge amount that goes on in their heads that I have no access to unless they share it. 

 

I didn't used to think that, when my kids were small. I thought as their mom I was utterly linked to them. But as they reach adolescence, that changes. 

[gardenmom5]

You know, I used to think differently about parenting, before my older two reached the teen years. I still believe parenting is a huge factor, but I've come face to face with the hard fact that these are people, with their own minds and thoughts and beliefs. There is a huge amount that goes on in their heads that I have no access to unless they share it. 

 

I didn't used to think that, when my kids were small. I thought as their mom I was utterly linked to them. But as they reach adolescence, that changes. 

 

it has been my experience, and I've long held the belief -

some kids will turn out okay, even with bad parents

some kids are affected by if their parents are good or bad

and some kids . . .  will give the BEST parents in the world a run for their money.

 

iow: kids can and do make their own choices, and it isn't always the parents fault if they make uber lousy ones.

[Entropymama]

I have a friend who has a very disturbed son. We are talking about self-harm, animal harm, threats to others.  You would think in this day and age, there would be some system in place to deal with this, but there is not.

 

KATY:  He has been hospitalized.  They keep sending him home.  He is in therapy, but getting close to the age he can no longer be forced.  The parents are locking sibling's doors at night to keep pets and siblings safe.  You would be shocked at how little help they are getting and how little recourse they have.  I am not flaming you, but I think you may be a little naive about the situation.

 

When I was in high school, a boy in my group of friends was molesting his sister. When it was discovered, the family tried their best (as far as I could see as a 17 year old) to get him help and keep the sister safe. He never went to jail for some reason and was just on probation. There was no where they could put him. They ended up sending the sister away to live with relatives, completely disrupting her life. No one wanted to take in the boy, so they felt there was nothing else they could do. She was the victim but was the one who lost everything. It really is a broken system. This was almost 20 years ago, but I don't see that it has changed much. 

[goldberry]

 It really is a broken system. This was almost 20 years ago, but I don't see that it has changed much. 

 

It really hasn't changed.  That's what's weird.  We keep seeing all these things happening due to mental illness, when there were previous signs, or a history of violence.  And yet the system is still giving no options for how to deal with it.  Very sad.

[KungFuPanda]

I feel some think getting mental health care is so easy. It's not. It's especially difficult for youth. It's also not cheap. We just received an $11,000 bill for one week of inpatient care.

 

I feel for her and won't judge her.

I imagine the process varies greatly with geography too so one person's experience successfully navigating the mental health system might not translate to another state.

[Joker]

I imagine the process varies greatly with geography too so one person's experience successfully navigating the mental health system might not translate to another state.

Maybe, but we've been navigating this through more than one area and state. We've encountered the same road blocks and issues at each place.

[Ms Brooks]

It was actually easier then to get care. He was already in a diversion program. All she had to do was call the officer in charge of him to get more help!  Plus, this is a minor child with a criminal background we are discussing, not an adult. It would have been more difficult to expect exactly what happened, but it was extraordinarily clear he was not heading down a good path.

 

Keep in mind I am not equivocating this with an adult who lives on his own.  This was a teenage boy who lived at home and had many many signs of severe issues, even if you assume only the ones in this article, and that there are no others.

 

Would anyone here seriously say that the second your child was arrested, placed in a diversion program, or his teacher set up a meeting to inform you she was extremely concerned about your child, that you would just let it go at that? Wouldn't you figure he'd lost the privilege of privacy at that point and for his own good go through every single belonging, every notebook or journal, every box, and figure out what was going on with him? Figure out just how bad it had gotten rather than letting it go?  Because I would.  And then at the very least, get him out of the school that is exacerbating the problem. That's what my family has done, in fact.

 

There was more than enough information there to force a commitment of a minor child.

 

I don't know, maybe I take this more personally because I lived near there at the time and I knew children at that school that year. But yeah, I would have handled it better.  Granted, I have medical experience, mental health conditions in the family experience, and even getting adult family members involuntarily committed for long periods of time experience, not to mention family in law enforcement.

 

But still, the idea that she couldn't have done something more, that she is completely blameless?  I find it infuriating.  Infuriating.  And frankly until I heard about this book I felt nothing but pity for her. Making money out of this tragedy, writing mass murder off in her head as nothing more than exacerbated suicide?  It's sickening.

 

Wow! Katy, I think most parents do the best they can in the moment. A parent can always do more no matter the circumstance.  Your reaction is very harsh and seems much more personal than most readers' experiences. 

[gardenmom5]

Maybe, but we've been navigating this through more than one area and state. We've encountered the same road blocks and issues at each place.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug:

[Haiku]

It was actually easier then to get care. He was already in a diversion program. All she had to do was call the officer in charge of him to get more help!  

 

Would anyone here seriously say that the second your child was arrested, placed in a diversion program, or his teacher set up a meeting to inform you she was extremely concerned about your child, that you would just let it go at that? Wouldn't you figure he'd lost the privilege of privacy at that point and for his own good go through every single belonging, every notebook or journal, every box, and figure out what was going on with him? 

 

I recently visited a friend in Colorado who was a freshman at Columbine when this tragedy happened. She told me about the book, and I read it.

 

If you believe what Sue Klebold wrote, then your interpretations are incorrect. The diversion program did assess Dylan and concluded he did not need psychiatric help. (The other shooter, Eric Harris, was seeing a psychiatrist and was in fact medicated when the massacre happened.) The parents did search his room, repeatedly. The teacher did not set up a meeting to inform the parents she was concerned about their child; it was a routine parent-teacher conference during which she mentioned the paper was disturbing but focused on the profanity more than anything else; she told the parents that the school counselor would be given the paper and they would be contacted if the counselor felt it was serious enough to need intervention, but they were never contacted.

 

This is what the mother writes. You may believe her or not at your pleasure, but the entire book is peppered with her making statements about Dylan's culpability in the massacre and how the fact that he was apparently suicidal is not an excuse for his actions. She takes responsibility for her inability to see or correctly interpret the signs Dylan was giving. She wrote the book because she is active in suicide prevention, and she felt that her experience would be valuable in helping others know what to look for and how to potentially prevent further tragedy.

 

I'm dismayed by your lack of compassion for this woman and your insistence that you would have done better. The whole point of the book is that everyone thinks they are doing the right thing, and they can still miss important information. I have a child who suffers from depression. I do the very best I can for her and then have to just hope beyond that, because I cannot control the world or my children or how they use the tools, resources, and help I provide them. I can do the best I can for them and hope it is enough.

Edited June 5, 2016 by TaraTheLiberator

[Tsuga]

makes me think of the job's comforters, who go around proclaiming that bad things *only* happen to bad people - to make themselves feel better because they're afraid of having bad things happen to them. . . . .

it's better to humble yourself - and not go around being so sanctimonious that life ends up humbling you.

Amen.

 

How old are your kids, Katy?

 

The most compliant are sometimes the most difficult teens. If your parenting is "working" so far, all that means is that you have kids who are sisceptible to instruction.

 

Of course I can see that in my own kids as well.

 

The gentlest, kindest, "easiest" is now gentle, kind and easy for others to influence. It's so hard.

 

Of course, you might have compliant kids all the way through. I hope your plan works.

 

Mine hasn't worked at all so far. Nothing had the expected results. Oh well. At least I have compassion even if it cannot be expected from others. I feel awful for those who face misfortune. They have their misfortune and shame and the heaped on top of it, the blame of a culture.

[Tita Gidge]

I think when something this big touches close to home, some people need to judge a bit harshly ... because it's so terrifying to think of it happening to you (instead). I guess I see it as a type of coping mechanism and there's unfortunately some comfort in separating ourselves in this way. :grouphug:

 

I don't remember much about this incident, and didn't follow it in the news at the time. It sounds tragic all around.