Awkward work situation

[Moxie]

What is the right answer here? This is a real situation happening to someone I know.

 

The workplace is a small law office with about 50 people. There are 2 floors. Each floor has a men's room and a woman's room. They do not own the building so they can not alter it.

 

An employee of about 5 years is transitioning from female to male. He would like to start using the men's room. Several men are uncomfortable with this. Normally, I'd say "get over it" but I see their point. This is a person they have worked with and known as a female and now they are supposed to share a restroom. It is uncomfortable.

 

What says the Hive??

[Anne in CA]

I think they are just going to have to get over it even if it is uncomfortable and weird. Life is full of those situations and we all have to engage in those situations. Some people are probably gay and they use the bathroom with them... I used to work with some very conservative Christians who had to share a work locker room with gay people and they didn't LIKE it, but they learned to deal and become more accepting people.

[clementine]

Since there are stalls in men's bathrooms too, I guess the privacy is there for all of the men.  

[regentrude]

Get over it. There are stalls even in men's rooms. Anybody not comfortable using the urinals can go in there for privacy.

 

ETA: This is also why I never understand why restrooms are such a big deal. You can go behind closed doors.

Edited February 12, 2016 by regentrude

[bolt.]

The discomfort is a real thing, based on social taboos -- but that doesn't mean it needs to overrule the realities of the situation. Emotions are no a reason to disregard individual rights.

 

They (the cis men) might be more comfortable if they use the stalls for a while (or indefinitely if they prefer) "just in case" the trans man might catch glimpse at a urinal.

[justasque]

What are they suggesting as an alternative?

[creekland]

I'd still say get over it, but that's me.

 

My experiences camping and in the AF have gotten me over such small problems long ago.  It's not like we're talking about skinny dipping at a couples only resort.  It's a restroom.

[JustEm]

Get over it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't understand how this situation is any different from any other place where someone is transitioning.  The size of the office or the length of time they've been working together really is irrelevant because someone is going to have to just deal with it no matter what. 

[EKS]

I lived on a coed hall in the dorms in college. The bathroom didn't have urinals, just stalls, and having men in there was no big deal. In fact, it just seemed normal.

 

What I don't understand is why men's bathrooms even have urinals.

Edited February 12, 2016 by EKS

[PineFarmMom]

No, they should not just get over it!! It makes them uncomfortable, rightly so!!

[justasque]

No, they should not just get over it!! It makes them uncomfortable, rightly so!!

 

I do feel that it is understandable that the men would feel uncomfortable.

 

What would you propose as an alternative?

 

--If the employee continues to use the ladies room, the ladies will be increasingly uncomfortable to have a person who appears and lives as male in their restroom.  This discomfort is likely to increase over time as the employee is increasingly perceived as male.

 

--If the employee begins to use the mens' room, the men will be (at least initially) uncomfortable to have a person they used to know as female in their restroom.  Over time, since the employee will be living as and perceived as male, this discomfort may diminish.

 

--Either way, the employee is likely *extremely* uncomfortable about using either bathroom.

 

There is no single-stall restroom available.  

 

What do you see as the best solution?

Edited February 12, 2016 by justasque

[Spryte]

They are going to have to adjust and move past the discomfort.

[creekland]

No, they should not just get over it!! It makes them uncomfortable, rightly so!!

 

Why?  What is so special about someone of either gender using a restroom, esp since they have options of being behind closed doors?

 

We're not talking about open showers or similar.

[Tsuga]

They need to deal.

 

They have no idea what kind of issues any other colleagues may or may not have. They should get over it.

 

The only other solution I can see would be to change ALL the bathrooms to either sex.

[Bambam]

Although this sounds childish, what about placing a small flag or other indication that the restroom is in use? I think it might also be uncomfortable for the person changing their gender to go to the restroom with others that formerly were a different gender. So, if you had some sort of "occupied" sign, the restrooms would effectively be single stall restrooms. Not ideal with 25 people per floor, but it might work.

[PineFarmMom]

Why? What is so special about someone of either gender using a restroom, esp since they have options of being behind closed doors?

 

We're not talking about open showers or similar.

Because they are actually men and it is a men's restroom. She is and will always be a female. I would feel the same if a man wanted to come into a woman's restroom.

[creekland]

I would feel the same if a man wanted to come into a woman's restroom.

 

As do I.  Behind closed doors there is no issue.  We don't have single gender bathrooms at our house - even when guests come.  We also don't necessarily leave the room next door so we can't hear anything.  We just have folks close the door and go on with life quite normally.

 

Using the bathroom is part of everyday life.  

[bolt.]

I think women's restrooms are easier for cis women and trans women to share, because everyone uses stalls. In the men's room, I see exposure during urinal use as a more legit discomfort than women worrying about sharing the space where they wash their hands.

 

However, since exposure while using a urinal is optional, I can't really regard either case as anything more than an emotional response to a new reality.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

They need to get over it.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that in general as a society we are going to transition to single, lockable restrooms.

Universities are already going this way--with 'pods' in the dorms.  Each pod has a shower or tub, toilet, and sink.  You lock yourself in and come out when you're done, more or less like at home.  This is far more civilized than our current system anyway.

[justasque]

Because they are actually men and it is a men's restroom. She is and will always be a female. I would feel the same if a man wanted to come into a woman's restroom.

 

The transgender men I know look very much like other men.  Deep voices, men's clothing, facial hair. I assume that is the case with this employee. 

 

This employee will be living as a man; new employees of either gender will only ever have known him as such,and will expect him to use the men's room.

 

If he is to use the women's restroom, won't that make the women uncomfortable?  Increasingly so, as time goes by?  

Even more uncomfortable than the men would be if the employee (who looks and acts as a man) used the men's restroom?

 

Would having someone who looks and identifies as a man there essentially make the women's room a mixed-gender restroom?  

 

You said "I would feel [uncomfortable] if a man wanted to come into a woman's restroom."  Wouldn't you also feel uncomfortable if someone who looked and acted like a man came into the women's room?  I think many women would.  Is it wise to put the employee into this position - having women perceive them as a man who is (inappropriately) using the women's room?

Edited February 12, 2016 by justasque

[regentrude]

Because they are actually men and it is a men's restroom. She is and will always be a female. I would feel the same if a man wanted to come into a woman's restroom.

 

I suggest we don't get into this debate. No. Just... no.

 

[bolt.]

They can't alter the building, but would they be able to perhaps upgrade the stalls to increase a sense of comfort for everyone?

 

I honestly think this will be the way of the future retrofitting washrooms: solid stalls, shared sinks, no genders. Particularly in schools. It just makes sense.

[regentrude]

I think that in general as a society we are going to transition to single, lockable restrooms.

Universities are already going this way--with 'pods' in the dorms.  Each pod has a shower or tub, toilet, and sink.  You lock yourself in and come out when you're done, more or less like at home.  This is far more civilized than our current system anyway.

 

This. Not only does it eliminate the debate about transgendered people, it also eliminates the problems of families with young children  (we recently had a thread on this board)

 

[clementine]

Because they are actually men and it is a men's restroom. She is and will always be a female. I would feel the same if a man wanted to come into a woman's restroom.

 

What about when her transition is complete?  Then would you say he could use the men's room?

 

I'm pretty sure she's not transitioning so she CAN use the men's restroom and oogle while in there.  

 

Sometimes we have to put up with things that are uncomfortable....as long as the men are not being threatened or sexually harassed, I say they deal with it, or use their break time to find a bathroom in another building.

 

JMHO.  

[AK_Mom4]

This same situation has happened in our (slightly larger) workplace.  The answer is to just let it be and over time people become used to the new arrangement.

 

Frankly, persons who were uncomfortable with it tended to time their bathroom visits so they did not cross paths with the transitioning person.  After about a year, even this avoidance level stopped as people got used to the arrangement.

 

Since every bathroom for either sex at our workplace has stalls, privacy could be maintained very easily  with minimum discomfort.

[PineFarmMom]

I suggest we don't get into this debate. No. Just... no.

 

Sorry but it is addressable with the topic of the post! The only answer I see in the future was the idea posed here of individual lockable restrooms. Those are pretty common anyway. The only disagreement I would have to that is if the employer has to shell out money for it. Employers shouldn't be held accountable to make these things work. Then that leads to government paying which means me paying, and well, I'm not for that either. The government is way way too into these issues as it is!! Maybe in the long run, those who feel the need to change gender should rally together and throw money into a big pot and fund it themselves. I'm sure that idea won't be applauded. Haha

[Nart]

 

What I don't understand is why men's bathrooms even have urinals.

 

My boys ( 7 and 9) are much quicker in public restrooms when there are urinals. They both go in, go at the same time, wash their hands (hopefully, but I still have to send them back some of the time if they come out too quickly), and run out.  When there are only stalls it takes much longer. I think this is the reason there never seem to be lines at the men's bathrooms unlike the long lines for the women's at some public places. 

[bolt.]

Sorry but it is addressable with the topic of the post! The only answer I see in the future was the idea posed here of individual lockable restrooms. Those are pretty common anyway. The only disagreement I would have to that is if the employer has to shell out money for it. Employers shouldn't be held accountable to make these things work. Then that leads to government paying which means me paying, and well, I'm not for that either. The government is way way too into these issues as it is!! Maybe in the long run, those who feel the need to change gender should rally together and throw money into a big pot and fund it themselves. I'm sure that idea won't be applauded. Haha

Yes, individual lockable restrooms are extremely common -- I'm pretty sure they are universal in the western world, including the office in the example. Granted, they currently aren't very sturdy nor 100% private, but those are pretty small obstacles.

 

I do think that companies should be required to upgrade these. Providing socially appropriate washrooms for all employees has been the responsibility of employers since the industrial revolution.

Edited February 12, 2016 by bolt.

[regentrude]

Sorry but it is addressable with the topic of the post!

 

Of course it is addressable...but I see no good coming of a debate about a transgendered person's "real" gender... I just forsee a lot of hurtful remarks.

 

 

 The only disagreement I would have to that is if the employer has to shell out money for it. Employers shouldn't be held accountable to make these things work. Then that leads to government paying which means me paying, and well, I'm not for that either. The government is way way too into these issues as it is!! Maybe in the long run, those who feel the need to change gender should rally together and throw money into a big pot and fund it themselves. I'm sure that idea won't be applauded.

 

Just curious: Do you also feel that employers should not be required to accommodate people with disabilities? They should throw money in a pot and fund their wheelchair ramps and accessible rooms and whatever else themselves, right? Because the government has no business insisting on conditions that are inclusive to all.

Edited February 12, 2016 by regentrude

[justasque]

Sorry but it is addressable with the topic of the post! The only answer I see in the future was the idea posed here of individual lockable restrooms. Those are pretty common anyway. The only disagreement I would have to that is if the employer has to shell out money for it. Employers shouldn't be held accountable to make these things work. Then that leads to government paying which means me paying, and well, I'm not for that either. The government is way way too into these issues as it is!! Maybe in the long run, those who feel the need to change gender should rally together and throw money into a big pot and fund it themselves. I'm sure that idea won't be applauded. Haha

 

But this facility does not have individual lockable restrooms, and the employer cannot alter the facility.

It is, I think, wise for the employee to discuss the situation with the employer, and for them together to come up with a solution and communicate it to the rest of the staff, so that everyone is aware of why either 1) a previously-female employee is now using the men's room, or 2) an employee who looks and acts male is regularly using the women's room.  Better to have this worked out in advance and widely communicated to staff than leaving the employee to decide what to do on their own, and likely cause significantly more discomfort.

 

Texas T, I've asked you several times, but you haven't responded - which restroom do you think the employee should use in this situation, and if it's the women's room, how to you feel about the potential discomfort the women will feel, and how should that be managed/addressed by the company?

 

[Butter]

What I don't understand is why men's bathrooms even have urinals.

 

This.  I seriously don't get it.

 

If they are uncomfortable with peeing at a urinal in the off chance he will be entering the restroom while they are in there, they can use a stall.  Peeing is allowed in men's room stalls.

[zoobie]

Everybody poops. There are stalls. Get over it.

[PineFarmMom]

Of course it is addressable...but I see no good coming of a debate about a transgendered person's "real" gender... I just forsee a lot of hurtful remarks.

 

 

 

Just curious: Do you also feel that employers should not be required to accommodate people with disabilities? They should throw money in a pot and fund their wheelchair ramps and accessible rooms and whatever else themselves, right? Because the government has no business insisting on conditions that are inclusive to all.

Absolutely disabled people should be accommodated. I am sure most disabled people wouldn't appreciate the comparison. But we are back to worldview on this. One is accommodating a person who has definite physical restrictions. The other is accommodating a choice or preference.

[marbel]

But this facility does not have individual lockable restrooms, and the employer cannot alter the facility.

It is, I think, wise for the employee to discuss the situation with the employer, and for them together to come up with a solution and communicate it to the rest of the staff, so that everyone is aware of why either 1) a previously-female employee is now using the men's room, or 2) an employee who looks and acts male is regularly using the women's room.  Better to have this worked out in advance and widely communicated to staff than leaving the employee to decide what to do on their own, and likely cause significantly more discomfort.

 

<snip>

 

 

Yes, this.  The employer and transitioning employee need to address it openly and communicate with the rest of the staff.

 

(The rest of this isn't a specific response to the quoted post, just a general response)

 

The people involved will have to 'get over it' at some point, but I think it's reasonable to expect people to feel a little discomfort at first.  That doesn't mean people won't have to work to get beyond their discomfort - and most people surely will.  But, there is going to be a time of adjustment.  I hope all involved have the grace to understand and acknowledge that it's not easy for anyone.   '

 

As to urinals - yes, I do thing they contribute to speed. 

[happi duck]

The men will get used to it. (If they try)

 

Men don't normally go to the bathroom in a group...right? How often would there be a bunch of guys in there anyway?

 

I'm guessing a law firm would also have clients there who might wonder why a man is using the ladies room.

 

I'm not sure why this is an issue for the men. If their coworker's transition is this far along they should be thinking of him as a fellow male employee.

 

.

Edited February 12, 2016 by happi duck

[Bluegoat]

So - as far as I understand it the reason for urinals is they take up less room, therefore you can have more in a given space, and get more people through.

 

I suspect if they just tried to get along for, say, 8 weeks, the problem would go away.

 

However, if people continued to feel uncomfortable, my suggestion would be that since there are two bathrooms on each floor, making a total of six, two of those (on different floors) should be designated mixed gender washrooms.  Occasionally someone might need to go up or down a floor to pee, but probably not often.

 

Generally, I think people should probably use the restroom of whatever gender they appear as.  In this case, I think it is inevitable that some people would continue to relate to someone that they knew before as if they were of that sex - we don't erase the past just because we do something new.  And with co-workers, there also isn't the intimacy that can work to overcome awkwardness about privacy in a personal way.

[regentrude]

Absolutely disabled people should be accommodated. I am sure most disabled people wouldn't appreciate the comparison. But we are back to worldview on this. One is accommodating a person who has definite physical restrictions. The other is accommodating a choice or preference.

 

I have a very hard time imagining that in a society where transgendered people face ridicule, hostility, abuse, and sometimes death, any person chooses or prefers to be transgendered.

 

Edited February 12, 2016 by regentrude

[marbel]

Nm. Thought better of it.  :-)

[SKL]

I'm kind of surprised grown men are making such a fuss.  What do they do in the bathroom that is so top secret?  Get over it.

[ktgrok]

Ideally, people would get over it. If that isn't going to happen, can it be made clear that the transgendered person will be using the mens room on a particular floor, so if someone is very much bothered they can just use the men's room on the other floor?

[Guest]

No one is making a fuss. It is just an issue that has come up. It is a small office.

 

Saying "get over it" is disrespectful. We have seperate gender restrooms because that is where people want privacy from the opposite sex. Seeing Sophia as Steve will take time to accept.

 

My suggestion was that they ask the owner to put a lock on the bathroom. Or some kind of door stop. If you are uncomfortable, lock the door. There is a bathroom on the other floor.

[justasque]

Absolutely disabled people should be accommodated. I am sure most disabled people wouldn't appreciate the comparison. But we are back to worldview on this. One is accommodating a person who has definite physical restrictions. The other is accommodating a choice or preference.

 

In this case, we have an employee who has made the choice to at least attempt to live life as the opposite gender, presumably following the words of St. Francis DeSalles - "Be who you are, and be that well".  They have given their employer notice so as to minimize disruption.  They are presumably still capable of doing their job.  They have not asked the employer to make physical changes to the workplace or take on any additional expenditures.  Why would the employer choose not to accommodate the employee?  Wouldn't it be best to extend grace to the employee?  

 

Texas T - Given your worldview, from a practical perspective, how would you resolve this issue if you were the employer?

Edited February 12, 2016 by justasque

[Annie G]

The guys are only bothered because they knew this person before.   I mean, when I use a restroom at a mall, I have no idea if the other women are transgender.  I'm guessing the guys at the office attend concerts, ball games, etc. and use public facilities. They have no way of knowing who else is going to be in there. 

 

I don't want another person to see me pee. Not another woman, not another man...not a child.  If the office bathroom affords that level of privacy, the guys are going to need to learn to deal with it. 

 

Our local Barnes and Noble has a bathroom with about six stalls but they also have a lock on the door- so a person can lock the door behind them when they enter. I haven't ever seen anyone do that but it's available. Maybe just having that option available would be enough. I don't think it's essential but it's a small price to pay if it makes people feel better.  Of course since the building is rented the owners might not allow a lock, but it never hurts to ask.  

[OnMyOwn]

I think the person should be able to use the restroom once they have had surgery and are completely in their new identity, but not a second sooner.  I don't want men in the women's room, but if they have *completely* made the transition, then I am fine with it.  I think the transgendered person's feelings are important, but so are the feelings of everyone else who is using that restroom.  Theirs aren't the only feelings that should be taken into consideration.

[Murphy101]

I don't understand why everyone else has to feel uncomfortable because it's no big deal to just use the stalls. If that's true, then why can't the trans person just use the stalls in the other restroom instead of making everyone else uncomfortable?

 

Or why not do away with all men's and women's bathrooms and just have restrooms and everyone can get over it?

[clementine]

 

Texas T, I've asked you several times, but you haven't responded - which restroom do you think the employee should use in this situation, and if it's the women's room, how to you feel about the potential discomfort the women will feel, and how should that be managed/addressed by the company?

 

 

I would like to hear Texas T's idea on how a company should address this too.  Sincerely.  

[marbel]

No one is making a fuss. It is just an issue that has come up. It is a small office.

 

Saying "get over it" is disrespectful. We have seperate gender restrooms because that is where people want privacy from the opposite sex. Seeing Sophia as Steve will take time to accept.

 

My suggestion was that they ask the owner to put a lock on the bathroom. Or some kind of door stop. If you are uncomfortable, lock the door. There is a bathroom on the other floor.

 

I was wondering how "being uncomfortable" turned into "making a fuss." 

 

I've been thinking about this as I go through my housework today, trying to think how it would be for me if one of my male coworkers transitioned. I think it would be a bit difficult for a while.  I think it would be uncomfortable for me, at first, to go from chatting with male Andy in the breakroom to running into female Andy in the women's restroom.   This is not something that happens every day to most people.  It is something fairly new in our (US) culture. 

 

That has nothing to do with disapproval.  I just think a little grace for the people who may be a bit bewildered by this would go a long way.  The only solution, barring lockable, single restrooms, is to have him use the men's room.  But it should be discussed and discomfort acknowledged and not demeaned as "making a fuss." 

 

A lot also would depend on the transitioning person's attitude, I think.  I think if the transitioning person took a "get over it" attitude, it would be harder to deal with than if he talked to the male employees, acknowledging that they may feel uncomfortable at first.  Even if there is nothing to be done about it, acknowledging that the person understands discomfort would go a long way, I think.

 

I just feel like all the compassion is for the transitioning person.  Can't there be a little left over for the other people in the situation?  People who most likely have no experience with this? 

[bolt.]

I don't understand why everyone else has to feel uncomfortable because it's no big deal to just use the stalls. If that's true, then why can't the trans person just use the stalls in the other restroom instead of making everyone else uncomfortable?

 

Or why not do away with all men's and women's bathrooms and just have restrooms and everyone can get over it?

I like your second idea.

 

Your first question is easy to answer. People need to "be themselves" -- that means that they should be afforded every opportunity to behave normally as a person of their gender normally would. A man does not normally use a stall in a woman's washroom, therefore it is inappropriate to expect a trans man to do so. Men normally use either urinals or stalls in a men's washroom, therefore trans men expect to do so.