Awkward work situation

[Ravin]

You and I weren't thinking along the same lines for what's going on.  I was contemplating a guy and a gal purposely heading into one or the other bathrooms together for some alone time.  If kids can use whichever restroom they want, this wouldn't raise too many flags.  With things the way they are, anyone seeing this is going to intervene.

 

I love the idea of any Peeping Tom heading into a gal's restroom seeing more than he bargained for though!   :lol:

 

 

 

I agree.  But in a school with 1300+ students, it really is impossible to truly know them all.

 

 

This.  I wouldn't want to see any laws one way or the other.  I think things can be worked out more fairly with appropriate consequences if there are no laws - and it doesn't make the bathrooms a hidden closet someone would need to be checking for hanky panky if kids aren't given the idea that anyone can choose any bathroom (NOT what SD was after, of course, but the opposite).

 

 

This school policy seems just fine to me!

 

If teenagers are dead set on fornication, restroom policies aren't going to aid or deter that decision. 

[Ravin]

I ran out of likes. That is extremely frustrating. But it's also uplifting that there were so many posts on a thread like this for me to run out of likes on. :hurray:

[December]

I think wise school administrators can tell the difference between an actual transgendered student (who is likely to have an IEP and a long history of other forms of documentation) from a student who is playing a prank.  

 

We've come this far without bathroom laws.  Do we really want using the wrong bathroom to be a criminal offense?  With all the lawyers, and court time, and so forth that would entail?  For juveniles?  In cases where someone did more than just enter the bathroom, existing laws like indecent exposure or assault would come into play.  Trying to enact laws to cover complicated situations that are likely best handled at the local level is not always the best way to go.  Especially when those laws are created by people who appear to have zero understanding of the very real people who would be affected by such laws.

 

 

Oh, sorry, I didn't clarify, this was at a city pool.  I agree in a school this shouldn't be a big problem, but when you have a man just show up in a woman's locker room and claim his gender identity is female, but it seems obvious he's doing it because he wants to make a political point, what do you do?  I don't like the idea of people being able to demand documentation from transgendered people before they are allowed to use the restroom/locker room because you know someone will abuse it and demand documentation from all transpeople just to be a jerk. But maybe there isn't a better option if this is going to become a widespread thing? Here is the article, btw: http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2016/02/16/man-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/80478058/

[Ravin]

Just a reminder that hanky-panky doesn't always take place between students of opposite genders.  We've addressed potential problems in the past by segregating by gender, but increasingly institutions that involve teens are coming to grips with the fact that segregation doesn't cover the whole "potential hanky-panky" picture.

 

And yes, this kind of thing does make life seem more complex now, but it's because we are increasingly understanding, and making an attempt at including, those who in the past may have lived life on the margins or, worse yet, had their life tragically cut short.  As life gets a wee bit more complicated for the "average" person (for lack of a better term), it gets much, much better for those who have traits or experiences that put them outside of the "average".  When people are able to live good, productive, fulfilling lives, even if not exactly the "average" way, we all benefit.  

 

Here's an idea. All students have ID's with chips in them and must be worn as bracelets or necklaces while on school premises. All restrooms have solid-door closed private toilets, common sinks. If more than one student (as indicated by the presence of their ID chip) is in a stall, an alarm goes off. That would prevent hanky panky in school, mostly. And wouldn't be far off from the security present in some schools now.

[creekland]

If teenagers are dead set on fornication, restroom policies aren't going to aid or deter that decision. 

 

I agree, but an open restroom policy that is well known not only gives them ideas, it also means others aren't paying attention to watch out for things.

 

Right now if we saw a guy and gal heading into the same bathroom, it would raise flags and they wouldn't get far.

 

A policy like justaque mentioned earlier would suit just fine I think.  I don't think any laws need to be made - period.

[MercyA]

Okay, it's off topic but how the heck is being transgender a SIN? Please, spell that out for us.

 

Ravin, I bowed out of this discussion back in post #232, but I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you.  :) I shared my views on this in post #199.

[Tanaqui]

Well, really, creekland, I can't imagine any situation where the public school bathrooms are free and open in such a way that the kids can arrange rendezvouses there. I mean, look. Either they're limited to having a bathroom pass - in which case, in my experience, the teacher is not going to authorize two kids going at once - or they're going in between classes and at lunch. In the schools I attended, the bathrooms were locked during passing periods, probably to avoid just this issue, but even if they weren't, you didn't have all that much time. I know they call 'em "quickies", but....

 

So what you appear to be concerned about is kids skipping class. If there's staff hanging around during class periods to make sure kids don't cut, then that same staff can no doubt poke their head in the toilets and say "Hey, is there an emergency? Because at least one of you has been in here really long."

[bolt.]

My high school didn't have any of those sorts of things. You just asked your teacher if you needed to go. Not allowing more that one student out at a time wouldn't have prevented much, dealing with about 3 dozen classrooms. Plus, plenty of people actually had 'spares' into their schedules and free to do anything they liked with 1/7 of their school day. No one supervised the halls. All the teachers were teaching (or prepping, I suppose).

 

I'm sure many rendezvous took place in washrooms and other secluded areas.) And lots of people probably occasionally skipped class too -- some skipped s lot of class. But skipping g did cause a call home, though, so I didn't. (I also didn't have any washroom sex, or see any. But I took a lot of barely-needed breaks from class supposedly to go to the washroom.)

 

I wonder if times are different now (including changes to my old school) or if the approach is just different for cultural reasons.

[scoutingmom]

Well, really, creekland, I can't imagine any situation where the public school bathrooms are free and open in such a way that the kids can arrange rendezvouses there. I mean, look. Either they're limited to having a bathroom pass - in which case, in my experience, the teacher is not going to authorize two kids going at once - or they're going in between classes and at lunch. In the schools I attended, the bathrooms were locked during passing periods, probably to avoid just this issue, but even if they weren't, you didn't have all that much time. I know they call 'em "quickies", but....

 

So what you appear to be concerned about is kids skipping class. If there's staff hanging around during class periods to make sure kids don't cut, then that same staff can no doubt poke their head in the toilets and say "Hey, is there an emergency? Because at least one of you has been in here really long."

Wow, things quite likely have changed, but when I went to high school, people could have free periods (no class scheduled), and there was no such thing as a hall pass. Unless the teacher was actually lecturing you could leave a class to go to the bathroom without asking.... I think you could for most teachers even if they were lecturing. We could also leave the school or come back too. Might make watching for TeA in the bathrooms harder (or drugs or smoking etc), but treated us like human beings.

 

 

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[zoobie]

Is a guy really going to go through the trouble of pretending to be trans so he can hookup with his girlfriend in the women's restroom?

[justasque]

Oh, sorry, I didn't clarify, this was at a city pool.  I agree in a school this shouldn't be a big problem, but when you have a man just show up in a woman's locker room and claim his gender identity is female, but it seems obvious he's doing it because he wants to make a political point, what do you do?  I don't like the idea of people being able to demand documentation from transgendered people before they are allowed to use the restroom/locker room because you know someone will abuse it and demand documentation from all transpeople just to be a jerk. But maybe there isn't a better option if this is going to become a widespread thing? Here is the article, btw: http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2016/02/16/man-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/80478058/

 

From the article:

 

Seattle Parks and Recreation is facing a first-of-a-kind challenge to gender bathroom rules. A man undressed in a women's locker room, citing a new state rule that allows people to choose a bathroom based on gender identity.... According to Seattle Parks and Recreation, a man wearing board shorts entered the women's locker room and took off his shirt. Women alerted staff, who told the man to leave, but he said "the law has changed and I have a right to be here."...Employees report that the man made no verbal or physical attempt to identify as a woman, yet he still cited a new rule that allows bathroom choice based on gender identification...."This didn’t seem like a transgender issue to staff – someone who was “identifying†as a woman," Takami wrote in a statement to KING 5.

This sounds like a rare case, involving someone who doesn't have great social skills and has perhaps spent way too much time on the internet, in spaces where reality has a tenuous presence. I go to an urban gym where there are frequently one or two people who are a little "off", and who don't always quite get the nuances of appropriate public behavior. The staff is quite skilled at handling the variety of situations which arise now and again, with a focus on kindness and deescalation. I would put this city pool incident very much in that category. While this kind of thing may happen now and again, it will be rare and shouldn't deter us from welcoming folks of transgender experience to our pools, schools, and places of employment.

 

If we are serious about welcoming and valuing human life, in all its rich variety, we should understand that it isn't always going to be easy.

[Ravin]

It frankly doesn't sound like that guy in Seattle was anything other than an IRL troll pulling a stunt just to see if he could get away with it. If I was to go to a gym or pool and needed to use the locker room, I would go into the men's and if there weren't individual shower stalls, I'd change in a toilet stall because I have no desire to expose my physical differences to a bunch of strangers and open myself up for harassment. The overwhelmingly vast majority of trans women would behave similarly--get their business done, pray no one harasses them in the process, and get out again. 

[December]

I was thinking IRL troll as well.  I hope it is a one time incident, but with how many trolls there are online... I could see more people trying this.

[Kerileanne99]

Ravin-

A bit off topic, but I love reading your posts. Your courage and personality always shine, with thoughtful posts that being out the humanity and humility with regard to your personal experiences.

I just have to say that the thought of you rushing through those personal care tasks with the hope that no one notice/harass you actually brings tears to my eyes. No one deserves this, for any reason...

[Ravin]

Ravin-

A bit off topic, but I love reading your posts. Your courage and personality always shine, with thoughtful posts that being out the humanity and humility with regard to your personal experiences.

I just have to say that the thought of you rushing through those personal care tasks with the hope that no one notice/harass you actually brings tears to my eyes. No one deserves this, for any reason...

 

I should note that I have not, in fact, used such public facilities since before my transition, with the exception of the city pool which has ONE family changing room...which is totally worth waiting for if necessary.

[Kerileanne99]

I should note that I have not, in fact, used such public facilities since before my transition, with the exception of the city pool which has ONE family changing room...which is totally worth waiting for if necessary.

I am glad for this! Yet, the very fact that it is a consideration is a problem:) I hope the day will come when you don't have to choose between waiting for access to a family room and risking anything at all.

[Tanaqui]

Well, scoutingmom, if it's a free period then presumably the students aren't losing out on any education if they hide out wherever and have sex.

 

And if nobody is supervising the halls during classtime then, again, you can't prevent two kids of the opposite sex from entering the bathroom together, so rules against this are fruitless.

[Joanne]

Yes, it is awkward and uncomfortable. In 2016, there are many people who are working on their place on the continuum of comfort and ease with trans issues. Let's be honest - trans is still a developing population in terms of how our culture responds, we are still developing vocabulary to support the trans community and their families/loved ones. There exists much misinformation, myth, stereotype. I acknowledge it is, understandably, uncomfortable.

 

But the cold, hard truth is that trans issues are real, and the trans community has the worst outcomes in terms of homelessness, addiction, suicide, prostitution. They are an at risk population.

 

The VERY LEAST we can do is respond with the greatest amount of kindness, care, and grace that our current understanding allows and seek to be open to learn and embrace more.

 

It hurts NO ONE to use the preferred pronouns. It hurts NO ONE for the transitioning(or transitioned) person to use the bathroom they prefer.

[scoutingmom]

Well, scoutingmom, if it's a free period then presumably the students aren't losing out on any education if they hide out wherever and have sex.

 

And if nobody is supervising the halls during classtime then, again, you can't prevent two kids of the opposite sex from entering the bathroom together, so rules against this are fruitless.

Wasn't that kind of my point?

 

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[scoutingmom]

Well, scoutingmom, if it's a free period then presumably the students aren't losing out on any education if they hide out wherever and have sex.

 

And if nobody is supervising the halls during classtime then, again, you can't prevent two kids of the opposite sex from entering the bathroom together, so rules against this are fruitless.

I offhand didn't know of any of the kids in my highschool sneaking off to have sex in the bathrooms, btw.

 

My main point is high school shouldn't treat kids like they are in a jail.... but that is off the main topic of discussion.

 

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[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I agree, but an open restroom policy that is well known not only gives them ideas, it also means others aren't paying attention to watch out for things.

 

Right now if we saw a guy and gal heading into the same bathroom, it would raise flags and they wouldn't get far.

 

A policy like justaque mentioned earlier would suit just fine I think. I don't think any laws need to be made - period.

I went to an excellent school, it still makes the various lists for best high schools blah blah blah.

 

Teens had intimate relations anywhere they could find, and no one paid any attention to a boy and a girl disappearing into a bathroom together.

 

Rules aren't going to change this, they will only hurt those who need to use a different bathroom.

Edited February 18, 2016 by PinkyandtheBrains.

[creekland]

Well, really, creekland, I can't imagine any situation where the public school bathrooms are free and open in such a way that the kids can arrange rendezvouses there. I mean, look. Either they're limited to having a bathroom pass - in which case, in my experience, the teacher is not going to authorize two kids going at once - or they're going in between classes and at lunch. In the schools I attended, the bathrooms were locked during passing periods, probably to avoid just this issue, but even if they weren't, you didn't have all that much time. I know they call 'em "quickies", but....

 

So what you appear to be concerned about is kids skipping class. If there's staff hanging around during class periods to make sure kids don't cut, then that same staff can no doubt poke their head in the toilets and say "Hey, is there an emergency? Because at least one of you has been in here really long."

 

Your school seems to be different than ours.  At ours, kids need a pass, but it's not uncommon for students from different classes to coordinate when they try to use the restroom - most often for drug exchanges, but also occasionally to meet in the hall for a quick chat/smooch.

 

The vast majority of students use the bathroom pass just to use the bathroom.  That's the norm.  A small percentage use it for other things.  We try to prevent those other things.

 

And no, we don't have teachers watching bathrooms and timing students.  I can't even imagine such a thing.  We often have people in the halls though - just heading from Point A to Point B.  It would be fairly easy to see a "wrong" student heading into a restroom.  A trans student using the appropriate restroom (for them - pending their situation) would not raise flags.  But an open "use whatever restroom you decide you identify with" could lead to issues like in Seattle.

 

Some kids just enjoy that sort of thing - with or without a reason.  They're kids.

 

 

Is a guy really going to go through the trouble of pretending to be trans so he can hookup with his girlfriend in the women's restroom?

 

No.  This is not at all what I'm talking about.

 

It frankly doesn't sound like that guy in Seattle was anything other than an IRL troll pulling a stunt just to see if he could get away with it. 

 

And this is what some kids do.  It's part of their job as kids I think.  Most will grow out of it.  But I don't think a well-known open policy at high schools would work well.  There would need to be some wording (like was suggested earlier in this thread) that would give powers that be some leverage.

 

I'm definitely NOT in favor of SD's wording/plan.  I just think there needs to be something reasonable for living in the real world vs some ideal world.

 

 

Well, scoutingmom, if it's a free period then presumably the students aren't losing out on any education if they hide out wherever and have sex.

 

Sorry.  It's still not appropriate in a public school.

[regentrude]

Your school seems to be different than ours.  At ours, kids need a pass, but it's not uncommon for students from different classes to coordinate when they try to use the restroom - most often for drug exchanges, but also occasionally to meet in the hall for a quick chat/smooch.

 

The vast majority of students use the bathroom pass just to use the bathroom.  That's the norm.  A small percentage use it for other things.  We try to prevent those other things.

 

This is off topic, but I have always found it bizarre that students in American public schools are humiliated to such degree that they are required to ask in public to use the bathroom. Especially older students.

In my home country, there are 10-15 minute breaks between all 45 minute periods for students to change rooms, chat in the hallways, eat, drink, and use the restrooms. Even elementary age students are allowed to take care of their bodily needs without requesting permission from a teacher - the day is structured in such a way that there are regular breaks to allow for that.

I find a system that does not allow for this, and that requires students to announce their bathroom needs in front of the class, inhumane.

 

ETA: And with having hundreds of students on recess simultaneously, I have not heard of private encounters in bathrooms as really an issue.

Edited February 18, 2016 by regentrude

[creekland]

This is off topic, but I have always found it bizarre that students in American public schools are humiliated to such degree that they are required to ask in public to use the bathroom. Especially older students.

In my home country, there are 10-15 minute breaks between all 45 minute periods for students to change rooms, chat in the hallways, eat, drink, and use the restrooms. Even elementary age students are allowed to take care of their bodily needs without requesting permission from a teacher - the day is structured in such a way that there are regular breaks to allow for that.

I find a system that does not allow for this, and that requires students to announce their bathroom needs in front of the class, inhumane.

 

ETA: And with having hundreds of students on recess simultaneously, I have not heard of private encounters in bathrooms as really an issue.

 

Well... it might be a personal choice of mine to let the asking part slide in my classes since I tend to believe that anyone over about 4 years of age is capable of knowing their bodily needs and taking care of them.  Kids know they still need to sign out and can only go if the pass is available 'cause I am responsible for knowing where they are at all times, but that's where I draw the line.  I tell them this so we're all on the same wavelength.  I'll admit to watching time too, but when kids are treated as adults, most act like adults.  I happen to think treating kids like adults is why I get along with 99%+ of the kids in our high school (and can get them to do school work, at least in class) - even those deemed "bad" who won't work for others.

 

BUT, what I might be doing is technically not allowed.  I'm violating school policy and both I and the kids know it.  Some (adults) probably dislike me for it or that I can get away with doing it.  (It sure helps to be super good at one's job so trivial matters are ignored.)  I have no regrets.  Any regular reader of the Hive knows my views on rules.

 

I'd love a school situation like you mention, but our plan here is to get as much time in for classes as we can before we end, and to end quickly enough for sports/jobs, etc.  Our buses run double routes - high/middle school first - elementary/intermediate afterward.  Extending our school day is not an easy option.  Our kids have 5 minutes between classes and are late if they aren't in the room by the time the bell rings.  Some have a fair distance to cover through crowded halls in that time.  Lunch is 28 minutes and that includes getting to the lunch room from your class and standing in line to purchase something.  Those aren't always long enough for kids to add extra stops.

 

If all kids had the same 15 minutes to do whatever, I can see where there would be no problems hanky panky style.  Too many people around.  We don't have issues in our 5 minute class changes either.

[JustEm]

This is off topic, but I have always found it bizarre that students in American public schools are humiliated to such degree that they are required to ask in public to use the bathroom. Especially older students.

In my home country, there are 10-15 minute breaks between all 45 minute periods for students to change rooms, chat in the hallways, eat, drink, and use the restrooms. Even elementary age students are allowed to take care of their bodily needs without requesting permission from a teacher - the day is structured in such a way that there are regular breaks to allow for that.

I find a system that does not allow for this, and that requires students to announce their bathroom needs in front of the class, inhumane.

 

ETA: And with having hundreds of students on recess simultaneously, I have not heard of private encounters in bathrooms as really an issue.

This was how both high-schools I attended in the US were one was a private school one was public. But of course there are time where one may need the bathroom during class.in that case you couldn't just up and leave the class. Private encounters in the bathroom for sex and drugs were a norm at the public school not so much the private school. Most of the private school kids would just go to their cars and do whatever it is they were up to.

[regentrude]

I'd love a school situation like you mention, but our plan here is to get as much time in for classes as we can before we end, and to end quickly enough for sports/jobs, etc.  Our buses run double routes - high/middle school first - elementary/intermediate afterward.  Extending our school day is not an easy option.  Our kids have 5 minutes between classes and are late if they aren't in the room by the time the bell rings.  Some have a fair distance to cover through crowded halls in that time.  Lunch is 28 minutes and that includes getting to the lunch room from your class and standing in line to purchase something.  Those aren't always long enough for kids to add extra stops.

 

The funny thing is that school days in Germany are shorter than the ones in the US :-)

I have not seen the long school day here produce a proportionally better outcome.

Back home, elementary age kids are done by 11am or, in 4th grade, maybe noon.

It is a fallacy to assume that more time in class automatically equals more learning.

 

[creekland]

The funny thing is that school days in Germany are shorter than the ones in the US :-)

I have not seen the long school day here produce a proportionally better outcome.

Back home, elementary age kids are done by 11am or, in 4th grade, maybe noon.

It is a fallacy to assume that more time in class automatically equals more learning.

 

 

Our high school day runs from 7:30am to 2:30pm.

 

I have not seen that our German exchange students have been any more educated than our native top level students and I teach at a statistically average high school.  We have at least a couple German exchange students every year. One lived with us for the school year.  Most actually are missing large segments of their education as per our US content.  They often haven't studied the solar system or much of anything in earth science, music, and of course, anything PE related.  The one who had lived with us never got to Trig functions in her math classes, but was one year shy of graduating in Germany.

 

Schools vary worldwide.  It's tough to make generalizations about which country has it "right."

 

The only constant I've found (across countries exchange students have come from) is that other countries tend to do much better with languages than the US.  Starting languages earlier is a huge benefit, but of course, the argument here (US) is that most will never need another language fluently, so there's no sense wasting time on them...  (I disagree with that belief, but that's what it is.)