Awkward work situation

[Alicia64]

Taking the political correctness out of the conversation: I don't understand why several men have to be uncomfortable so that one transitioning person can be comfortable. Why can't the transitioning person just use the bathroom that has always been used?

 

And I don't mean that rudely. If I were in this person's place I would be attempting to assist others in feeling comfortable with my choice (within limits of course). This person wants to be real and authentic, but so do the men. They're people too.

 

People will adjust over time. My dad worked in San Fran forever and initially was not cool with gay people. Then he started going to funeral after funeral of his coworkers who'd died from AIDS. His position changed 180.

 

Compassion towards everyone -- including the men who don't quite gets what's happening -- is the way to help smooth this situation's wrinkles.

 

Alley

[Butter]

Again, if a person is presenting as male, and being perceived as male, in other words, looks and acts male, wouldn't that make women feel uncomfortable (and maybe even unsafe) if that person is using the women's restroom?

 

I have a friend who is female NOT trans, but has always been quite tall, shaped boyish, and has always worn her hair short.  She has, more than once, been yelled at in public restrooms for "being in the wrong one."  Once a *man* followed her into the women's room telling her she was going into the wrong restroom (when he didn't believe her when she said she was a woman, she flashed her boobs at him - he got out of there fast when he realized she is indeed female).  This is just because she looks more like a male than a female to many people.  And she's totally female living as female!  So, yeah, I would imagine there would be a lot of women feeling uncomfortable if they saw this guy in the women's room.

 

My husband works with two trans MtoF women.  He's never noticed what restroom either use, but he assumes they use the women's room because they identify as female, look at least somewhat female (one of them is 6'4" and shaped like a linebacker which is definitely not common naturally among females), and are living as females so it makes sense they would use the women's room.  It would be pretty weird for one of them to walk into the men's room wearing a dress, after all.

[skimomma]

Taking the political correctness out of the conversation: I don't understand why several men have to be uncomfortable so that one transitioning person can be comfortable. Why can't the transitioning person just use the bathroom that has always been used?

 

 

 

My guess is because eventually the women are going to feel uncomfortable having a now-man in their bathroom.  Someone is going to feel uncomfortable.  And I am almost 100% sure that in all cases the transitioning person is going to feel the most uncomfortable no matter what.

[MercyA]

The transgender person says he wants to use the men's room.  

 

No one gets everything they want. She's not the only one who works there, and her desire to use the men's room doesn't outweigh other people's discomfort with it. 

[bibiche]

No one gets everything they want. She's not the only one who works there, and her desire to use the men's room doesn't outweigh other people's discomfort with it.

HE. He he he he him his.

[MercyA]

I just have to add that I truly hope some seriously consider outsourcing biology.

 

Wow. Who are these "some" of which you speak? If you're going to insult the knowledge and/or intelligence of other posters, please have the courtesy (and courage) to quote them or call them out directly so they can respond.  :)

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

No one gets everything they want. She's not the only one who works there, and her desire to use the men's room doesn't outweigh other people's discomfort with it.

 

He.

His.

[marbel]

They could close all the restrooms and tell everyone to hold it or go out for lunch and take care of business.   :lol:

 

I still honestly fail to see why so many are uncomfortable with basic restroom use.  Parts are parts and doors are available to those who want them.  It's not a big deal really.

 

I guess I'm in the minority though.

 

If it's not a big deal why have I never in nearly 60 years come across a mixed-gender "open" type restroom?  By "open" I mean the kind you find in public places like stores, no locks except on the stalls inside.   In the current culture we are talking about, it is typical for men and women to have separate bathroom facilities.  (Of course I have not been in every public bathroom in the US so I can't say that 100% of public bathrooms are separated by gender.)

 

So you can say "parts are parts" but that's simply not how it works here now. For some people, it is just not that simple and I think you are being disingenuous to say it's not a big deal.  It is a very big deal for some people.   It may change - most likely will change - but it hasn't changed yet.

 

[Tanaqui]

Taking the political correctness out of the conversation: I don't understand why several men have to be uncomfortable so that one transitioning person can be comfortable. Why can't the transitioning person just use the bathroom that has always been used?

 

1. What you call "political correctness" is what I call "good manners" and "compassion". And what you call "taking political correctness out of the conversation" is what I call "coercing others to adhere to a certain political ideology" or "using right-wing political correctness". Just because on this issue you're on the conservative right side of the spectrum doesn't mean your view is not political.

 

2. Why should several women and one man be uncomfortable just so a bunch of cisgendered men can be comfortable?

 

[bolt.]

Unless someone gives employers the legal freedom to do genital checks in order to mandate washoom privileges, they really *are* going to have to accept that people who say they are men are going to be using the men's room.

 

Employee: "I'm a man."

Employer: "We don't believe your genitals match that assertion."

Employee: "So?"

Employer: "So we want you to use the women's facilities."

Employee: "But I'm a man."

Employer: "We don't think you are."

Employee: "But I think I am."

Employer: "Can you prove it?"

Employee: "Have you ever asked anyone else to prove their gender? What kind of proof do you imagine you might find compelling? Why, exactly, are you inquiring about my genitals?"

Employer: "Ummmm..."

Edited February 12, 2016 by bolt.

[Heatherwith4]

I would be A-OK with restrooms being unisex. Truly. Go in the stall, do your business, wash your hands, and leave.

[ktgrok]

Taking the political correctness out of the conversation: I don't understand why several men have to be uncomfortable so that one transitioning person can be comfortable. Why can't the transitioning person just use the bathroom that has always been used?

 

 

 

Well, for starters, wouldn't it make the women uncomfortable to be using the restroom with someone who looks like a man?

[Renthead Mommy]

No one gets everything they want. She's not the only one who works there, and her desire to use the men's room doesn't outweigh other people's discomfort with it. 

 

 

You are right HE is not the only one that works there.  And HIS deisre to use the MEN's room doesn't outweight the other's people's discomfort.  But you have to balance things out and be realistic. 

 

 

So are you saying that because HE used to be a woman, HE has to use that restroom the rest of the time he works there? 

 

That's a great idea, because we wouldn't want a few guys getting over the fear someone might, and emphasis might see their penis while peeing (Not the easiest thing to do if you are standing directly in front of a unrinal unless they are waving it around, but hey,  you know lawyers, such a crazy bunch at work!)

 

It is a much better plan to have a MAN, dressed in a suit with facial stubble or even better, full out facial hair using the women's restroom.  That will make everyone comfortable.... 

[Tanaqui]

I answered probably more than once: she should use the women's restroom. She is a woman. Only when we start convoluting the truth do these issues become this confusing and cost people money, time, etc. This issue has not been an issue until people to trade the truth for a lie. Now it is a big mess!! I really have no responses that will go much deeper than that. I guess I can restate it in different ways 100 times over. I really don't play this out in my mind much because I don't think it ever should have been messed with in the first place!!

 

Just because you were unaware of the problem, that doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. And there have been transgender individuals for a very, very long time. In some societies, transgender people have special roles. In others, no such luck - but that doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means they are unsafe.

 

Gender and sex is much more complex than most people realize. For example, there are people out there who have two sets of sex chromosomes. Some cells are xx and others are xy. There is evidence to suggest that this sort of condition is more common among transgender individuals than cisgender individuals. A blood test won't tell you what sex they are! There are children born every day with indeterminate genitalia. Some of them are operated on to make their genitals look more "normal", though this is now no longer advised. Some of those children grow up and say "Nope, mom, you guessed wrong, I'm not a woman I'm a man". There are children born with an outward female appearance until puberty, when testes and a penis develop.

 

Biology isn't simple, with neat categories, and humans are even worse. Real life is messy and complex.

 

And why should it matter? How often does the state of your genitals even come up in casual conversation?

[creekland]

If it's not a big deal why have I never in nearly 60 years come across a mixed-gender "open" type restroom?  By "open" I mean the kind you find in public places like stores, no locks except on the stalls inside.   In the current culture we are talking about, it is typical for men and women to have separate bathroom facilities.  (Of course I have not been in every public bathroom in the US so I can't say that 100% of public bathrooms are separated by gender.)

 

So you can say "parts are parts" but that's simply not how it works here now. For some people, it is just not that simple and I think you are being disingenuous to say it's not a big deal.  It is a very big deal for some people.   It may change - most likely will change - but it hasn't changed yet.

 

 

Because in this situation you have someone who has decided to identify with being a man, is in the process of changing what he can, and wishes to use the men's room appropriately.  The guys either accept him as he is or they can use closed doors to keep their parts to themselves.  It's not all that tough.  

 

As for mixed restrooms, yes, they do exist in places.  I first encountered mine in the AF during training because it was a building that had been used as a men's dorm previously and there was only one bathroom.  Now it was co-ed.  It took us cadets all of maybe 5 minutes to see it wasn't really an issue.  We designated showering times, gals first, then guys, and everyone used toilets in the stalls at all other times.  Sinks were shared with everyone appropriately covered when using them.  No problems whatsoever.

 

Sometimes people have to adapt to older buildings.  It can be done without problems. I fail to see any problem in this particular situation as we aren't even talking about showers.

[MercyA]

So are you saying that because HE used to be a woman, HE has to use that restroom the rest of the time he works there? 

 

...

 

It is a much better plan to have a MAN, dressed in a suit with facial stubble or even better, full out facial hair using the women's restroom.  That will make everyone comfortable.... 

 

No, I suggested that a mixed gender restroom be provided.

[Tsuga]

But some people are uncomfortable with touching me, say shaking my hand, because I am a woman. Or not white. Or signing a contract with me because I'm not Christian or Muslim. Their discomfort is irrelevant to my exercise of basic human rights like using the bathroom or functioning as my own representative in society (I.e. Not being owned by a man).

 

They are allowed to be uncomfortable. They can even hate him.

 

But I don't think that changes the fact that they need to function at work so they have to just deal.

[Renthead Mommy]

I guess I don't get what guys are worried about.  I knew guys that didn't want to pee next to gay guys, or didn't like the idea of two gay guys moving in behind his house because "I mow the lawn without my shirt on.  I don't want them looking at me!"  I ended up explaining  "I've seen you without your shirt on.  And without a whole lot more on.  They don't want to look at you.  I'm still wondering how I got to the point where I ended up looking at you."  (Okay I'm hoping I left that last part out, but by the time that conversation happened my filter may have had a little too much to drink.  Eh, we were still friends after that, but the benifits part, and the attempt to gain benifits never happened after that conversation, so who knows.)

 

No one cares that much about your penis.  Okay, maybe someone does, and hopefully you find that someone, but no one at work, especially no one on a pee break cares that much about your penis.  No one wants to convert you.  Gay or transgendered is not contagious, you aren't going to wake up suddenly wanting to be either if you didn't before. 

 

Just because he used to be a woman, and I'm guessing here as this information was not given, but presumably used to like men in a sexual sense, and now is a man who likes men in a sexual sense, does not mean he is suddenly going 'want' you.  

 

I just don't get it.  Go in, pee, WASH YOUR HANDS,  and go back to work.

 

This country should be damn grateful for the bathrooms we have.  Running, flushable and washable water.  Stalls.  Stalls with doors! Seats on toilets.  Just actual toilets. Who's peeing in the stall next you should be so low on the list. 

[creekland]

This country should be damn grateful for the bathrooms we have.  Running, flushable and washable water.  Stalls.  Stalls with doors! Seats on toilets.  Just actual toilets. Who's peeing in the stall next you should be so low on the list. 

 

I'll admit to thinking the same thing, but thought better about bringing that part up.  Glad you did though.  ;)

[wendyroo]

If it's not a big deal why have I never in nearly 60 years come across a mixed-gender "open" type restroom?  By "open" I mean the kind you find in public places like stores, no locks except on the stalls inside.   In the current culture we are talking about, it is typical for men and women to have separate bathroom facilities.  (Of course I have not been in every public bathroom in the US so I can't say that 100% of public bathrooms are separated by gender.)

 

That is exactly how all the restrooms were laid out in my college dorm.  All the restrooms were mixed gender.  They had a long counter with sinks along one wall, some lockable toilet stalls along the opposite wall and a few double curtained shower stalls in the back with a bench and hooks between the curtains.

 

A dorm full of young adults, including two trans individuals that I knew of, managed to harmoniously attend to hygiene in these facilities.

 

Wendy

[Kerileanne99]

Wow. Who are these "some" of which you speak? If you're going to insult the knowledge and/or intelligence of other posters, please have the courtesy (and courage) to quote them or call them out directly so they can respond. :)

For starters, anyone who simplifies biology into 'a choice.'

Black or white. Really. It isn't that simple.

[Renthead Mommy]

No, I suggested that a mixed gender restroom be provided.

 

 

But they can't.  It is not their building.  They can not build another restroom. 

 

 

But wait! They have a M/W's room on each of the two floors.  Let's just make one of those this person's basically personal bathroom.  

 

Okay so you give him the men's room on the first floor.  Great.  Now you've discriminated against all the men on the first floor by taking away their gender personal bathroom and making them walk upstairs.  Build a new building that has M/W's on the second floor and only W/mixed gender on the first floor.  Okay.  But take away existing things and you are now discriminating.  Welcome to America! Let me find a lawyer.  Oh wait!  I have a whole two floors of them to pick from!

 

When the easiest approach is for everyone to use the bathroom of their gender.  And sorry, but it is not for you to decide what gender this person is.  It is for HIM to decide.  You dont' have to like, but it's not your gender in question, it's HIS. 

[Alicia64]

 

 

1. What you call "political correctness" is what I call "good manners" and "compassion". And what you call "taking political correctness out of the conversation" is what I call "coercing others to adhere to a certain political ideology" or "using right-wing political correctness". Just because on this issue you're on the conservative right side of the spectrum doesn't mean your view is not political.

 

2. Why should several women and one man be uncomfortable just so a bunch of cisgendered men can be comfortable?

 

 

You're making a lot of assumptions about me and you couldn't be more off the mark.

 

Right wing political correctness?

 

I'm actually trying to consider everybody's feelings. Yes, even the "bunch of cisgendered men."

 

Alley

[Guest]

Am I crazy that I don't want to pee in a stall next to a man?? Maybe I'm a ridiculous prude but that would make me very uncomfortable. I close the door at home. It is private time. Unless the stalls have solid doors, floor to ceiling, I'm not peeing next to a man.

[bolt.]

Am I crazy that I don't want to pee in a stall next to a man?? Maybe I'm a ridiculous prude but that would make me very uncomfortable. I close the door at home. It is private time. Unless the stalls have solid doors, floor to ceiling, I'm not peeing next to a man.

I imagine that's a pretty common feeling, but I also think that a few weeks' familiarity (or even a few days') would have you wondering why it ever bothered you.

 

I've been to campgrounds, military buildings constructed for one gender, various kinds of travel situations, using a camp toilet in an open room with family members who merely look away. You get used to it, even though it's uncomfortable at first.

[Renthead Mommy]

That is exactly how all the restrooms were laid out in my college dorm.  All the restrooms were mixed gender.  They had a long counter with sinks along one wall, some lockable toilet stalls along the opposite wall and a few double curtained shower stalls in the back with a bench and hooks between the curtains.

 

A dorm full of young adults, including two trans individuals that I knew of, managed to harmoniously attend to hygiene in these facilities.

 

Wendy

 

Wait!  You mean having someone of a different sex showering or god forbid peeing! right next to you peeing didn't make you all drop to the floor in some sex crazed orgy!  I am shocked.  Shocked I tell you!  l

 

And to think you were actually able to control your hormones and function enough to work towards higher education....

[creekland]

Am I crazy that I don't want to pee in a stall next to a man?? Maybe I'm a ridiculous prude but that would make me very uncomfortable. I close the door at home. It is private time. Unless the stalls have solid doors, floor to ceiling, I'm not peeing next to a man.

 

I don't know which of us is weird - maybe me.  

 

I honestly can't say I thought twice about it in the AF deal and I don't think about it elsewhere when it happens either (port o johns, primitive camping situations when we have trees/rocks/bushes (or just turn the other way) or whatever).  It wouldn't occur to me to think twice about it.  I don't put that much thought into restroom procedures.  My mind is often elsewhere.

[Tanaqui]

You're making a lot of assumptions about me and you couldn't be more off the mark.

 

Right wing political correctness?

 

I'm actually trying to consider everybody's feelings. Yes, even the "bunch of cisgendered men."

 

You don't seem to be considering the feelings of the women in the office.

 

And if you start off with a comment that pretty much implies that people who disagree with you are being "politically correct", well, then you've already won the "who can make more assumptions" contest and are working on your second medal.

[wendyroo]

Am I crazy that I don't want to pee in a stall next to a man?? Maybe I'm a ridiculous prude but that would make me very uncomfortable. I close the door at home. It is private time. Unless the stalls have solid doors, floor to ceiling, I'm not peeing next to a man.

 

Do you mean a person with a penis?  Any time you use a public restroom there is a chance the woman next to you has a penis.

 

Do you mean a person that looks like a man?  Then that is all the more reason the FtoM trans individual who now looks like a man should use the mens restroom.

 

Wendy

[tm919]

I think the men in this situation probably will get over it in time, unless this particular employee is really weird about being there (e.g., my  husband says that trying to strike up a work-related conversation at the urinal should be a cardinal sin) -- in which case the problem is that he's being weird, not that he's there.

Edited February 13, 2016 by tm919

[Tanaqui]

Am I crazy that I don't want to pee in a stall next to a man?? Maybe I'm a ridiculous prude but that would make me very uncomfortable. I close the door at home. It is private time. Unless the stalls have solid doors, floor to ceiling, I'm not peeing next to a man.

 

Some people have trouble using public bathrooms. However, yes, I think it's a little strange to claim that you're okay using public bathrooms when you assume the people next to you have a certain configuration of parts but you're not okay when they have another configuration of parts.

[Mergath]

Absolutely disabled people should be accommodated. I am sure most disabled people wouldn't appreciate the comparison. But we are back to worldview on this. One is accommodating a person who has definite physical restrictions. The other is accommodating a choice or preference.

 

I have a disability. I don't mind the comparison in the least. 

 

Please don't claim to speak for "most disabled people."

[Tanaqui]

I have a disability. I don't mind the comparison in the least. 

 

Please don't claim to speak for "most disabled people."

 

(Besides, gender dysphoria IS a disability. The accepted treatment is transition.)

[Julie Smith]

I think the men in this situation probably will get over it in time, unless this particular employee is really weird about being there (e.g., my husband says that trying to strike up a work-related conversation at the urinal should be a cardinal sin) -- in which case the problem is that he's being weird, not that he's there.

Slightly unrelated. But if anyone at work doesn't follow those unwritten bathroom rules you can secretly give them the book, "How to poo at work".

[Renthead Mommy]

Am I crazy that I don't want to pee in a stall next to a man?? Maybe I'm a ridiculous prude but that would make me very uncomfortable. I close the door at home. It is private time. Unless the stalls have solid doors, floor to ceiling, I'm not peeing next to a man.

 

 

Because he can hear you pee? You can hear him pee?  You are out in public.  Good chance you already have peed next to a man in the next stall.  It's not a new thing. 

 

And yes, it's private time.  Especially at home.  Because we can lock ourselves away from people (expecially little people) wanting our attention.  But if you think about it, when out in public, how private is your pee time?  You can hear, and smell what everyone else is doing in that room your little piece of privacy is in.  

 

To be honest, I'd rather hear man or woman in the stall next to me peeing, than listening to them rehash last night's outing, argue with their mother, argue with their boyfriend, tell their boyfriend what their plans for their boyfriend are that night, or god forbid, have a phone sex 'quickie' with their boyfriend.  

 

Because you know, they are on break, and the bathroom is 'private time.'

Edited February 13, 2016 by Renthead Mommy

[albeto.]

Just because you were unaware of the problem, that doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. And there have been transgender individuals for a very, very long time. In some societies, transgender people have special roles. In others, no such luck - but that doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means they are unsafe.

 

Gender and sex is much more complex than most people realize. For example, there are people out there who have two sets of sex chromosomes. Some cells are xx and others are xy. There is evidence to suggest that this sort of condition is more common among transgender individuals than cisgender individuals. A blood test won't tell you what sex they are! There are children born every day with indeterminate genitalia. Some of them are operated on to make their genitals look more "normal", though this is now no longer advised. Some of those children grow up and say "Nope, mom, you guessed wrong, I'm not a woman I'm a man". There are children born with an outward female appearance until puberty, when testes and a penis develop.

 

Biology isn't simple, with neat categories, and humans are even worse. Real life is messy and complex.

 

And why should it matter? How often does the state of your genitals even come up in casual conversation?

 

I always love reading your posts because you have relevant and interesting information, not only to support your comment, but to share for the sake of sharing knowledge. Thanks for that. 

[albeto.]

 

It is uncomfortable.

What says the Hive??

 

 

When one is raised to consider certain body parts to be "naughty," or "private," or even have special functions set apart for "sacred" use, there's a whole host of attitudes and assumptions that follow. This is the reality of many Americans, and this reality is being challenged. I think that's why it's uncomfortable for many. Frustratingly, challenges to deeply ingrained beliefs and assumptions aren't always met with a rational, reasonable, thoughtful approach. Ask me how I know. ;-)

 

The point being, those who are uncomfortable, likely because they have been raised to interpret situations like this as unfavorable, are simply going to be uncomfortable until they can modify their belief system to accommodate their experience. Modifying rules and laws and practices to coincide with factual information helps, even when it goes against genuine beliefs. One might argue, it is the most compassionate response. An increasing number of laws, for example deny individuals the freedom to act on hostile impulses to protect a belief system, or protect what they interpret to be the reality of the world, and it influences the younger generation by not supporting the conventional, problematic belief system that, unwittingly or not, inspires oppression and aggression against innocent victims. When laws are not in effect, like your scenario, I would argue that the compassionate response would be to establish in-house rules that correspond to known information, even when it goes against personal belief.

 

[MercyA]

For starters, anyone who simplifies biology into 'a choice.'

Black or white. Really. It isn't that simple.

 

Well, let's see. Texas T made that post, and Monica in Switzerland and I liked it. Just to be clear, are you saying all three of us are unqualified to teach biology to our children? And this because we believe people who are anatomically male, are, in fact, male?

 

Look, I have no doubt at all that biology is involved in some of these kinds of preferences. However, dressing like a man, taking hormones to appear more like a man, undergoing surgery--those actually are all choices. 

 

And, as another poster pointed out, there are certainly non-normative physiological differences in some people's chromosomes and/or genitalia when they are born. This is not at all surprising given that non-normative traits have occurred in every human anatomical system. I have great sympathy for people who are born with those conditions, as well as for those who strongly desire to be a gender they are not.

 

Bowing out for tonight! I have a hot date. (iZombie, a glass of wine, and my brilliant and handsome husband. What could be better?) 

Edited February 14, 2016 by MercyA

[Tsuga]

Taking the political correctness out of the conversation: I don't understand why several men have to be uncomfortable so that one transitioning person can be comfortable. Why can't the transitioning person just use the bathroom that has always been used?

 

And I don't mean that rudely. If I were in this person's place I would be attempting to assist others in feeling comfortable with my choice (within limits of course). This person wants to be real and authentic, but so do the men. They're people too.

 

People will adjust over time. My dad worked in San Fran forever and initially was not cool with gay people. Then he started going to funeral after funeral of his coworkers who'd died from AIDS. His position changed 180.

 

Compassion towards everyone -- including the men who don't quite gets what's happening -- is the way to help smooth this situation's wrinkles.

 

Alley

 

Most of the time, political correctness is just a euphemism for "ethical codes that I don't agree with".

 

It's not that it's politically correct not to make a trans person bow down to your discomfort with who they are.

 

It's that it is WRONG, morally, to ask people who are not in the majority group, to experience significant inconvenience (such as using the bathroom of the opposite sex, or across the street) so you can feel comfortable.

 

Never in my life have I heard someone complain about political correctness unless it was to justify their belief that they should not have to treat others with the consideration that they have received their entire lives. Never. Not once.

 

Even in cases where I would say the term "political correctness" could be applied, usually the situation is so absurd as to be newsworthy (such as the question of cultural appropriation by a private school cafeteria serving "sushi" and "biryani", as if anything being served there was representative of any national cuisine anywhere...).

 

This is not a case of political correctness. It is a question of basic rights for all people to use the bathroom of their own gender.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Tsuga

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Most of the time, political correctness is just a euphemism for "ethical codes that I don't agree with".

 

It's not that it's politically correct not to make a trans person bow down to your discomfort with who they are.

 

It's that it is WRONG, morally, to ask people who are not in the majority group, to experience significant inconvenience (such as using the bathroom of the opposite sex, or across the street) so you can feel comfortable.

 

Never in my life have I heard someone complain about political correctness unless it was to justify their belief that they should not have to treat others with the consideration that they have received their entire lives. Never. Not once.

 

Even in cases where I would say the term "political correctness" could be applied, usually the situation is so absurd as to be newsworthy (such as the question of cultural appropriation by a private school cafeteria serving "sushi" and "biryani", as if anything being served there was representative of any national cuisine anywhere...).

 

This is not a case of political correctness. It is a question of basic rights for all people to use the bathroom of their own gender.

 

This.

[Tsuga]

Well, let's see. Texas T made that post, and Monica in Switzerland and I liked it. Just to be clear, are you saying all three of us are unqualified to teach biology to our children? And this because we believe people who are anatomically male, are, in fact, male?

 

Given the personal insult, I'm kind of tempted to post my college transcript here, but alas, I'm too much of a privacy nut.  :)

 

Look, I have no doubt at all that biology is involved in some of these kinds of preferences. However, dressing like a man, taking hormones to appear more like a man, undergoing surgery--those actually are all choices. 

 

And, as another poster pointed out, there are certainly aberrations in some people's chromosomes and/or genitalia when they are born. This is not at all surprising given that aberrations have occurred in every human anatomical system. I have great sympathy for people who are born with those conditions, as well as for those who strongly desire to be a gender they are not.

 

Bowing out for tonight! I have a hot date. (iZombie, a glass of wine, and my brilliant and handsome husband. What could be better?) 

 

Your pity for people who are not like the majority is so incredibly insulting I don't even know where to start.

 

Aberration, freak, whatever you want to call it: I don't feel sorry for people who are not normal or typical except that statements like yours could be taken personally. In other words, the only pitiable thing about their situation in many cases is that they have to deal with statements like yours.

 

Think about that for a bit. You are the reason their life is so difficult. It's not the difference, it's the lack of love. There is nothing to pity but the fact that you pity them.

 

Maybe they love themselves. Maybe they are happy. Maybe they don't give a flying fart at a rolling donut whether or not the fact that they are not typical, makes other people uncomfortable because they don't place a high value on "make the majority comfortable" but instead have values like, oh, I don't know...

 

LOVE.

 

(And no, love is not "not being who I am so you don't have to deal with diversity" because then you have to love others by hating yourself. And that is not okay. Love in this situation is celebrating every last person and if something squeeges you out, just use the stall!)

Edited February 13, 2016 by Tsuga

[goldberry]

Am I crazy that I don't want to pee in a stall next to a man?? Maybe I'm a ridiculous prude but that would make me very uncomfortable. I close the door at home. It is private time. Unless the stalls have solid doors, floor to ceiling, I'm not peeing next to a man.

 

You're not crazy. I always wondered why the doors never went top to bottom.  I don't like it with other WOMEN.  Especially if I have an upset stomach, ya know?  I can either hold it or deal with being uncomfortable.  But I consider that my problem, and no one else's.  

 

I would probably rather be in there with someone I thought was a woman but really wasn't, than someone who obviously looked like a man.  But either way, again, my problem.

[Tsuga]

Honestly, the worst thing about the work bathroom is going when my boss in the other stall. I have shared dinners and all sorts of things with bathrooms with trans women and nothing compares to accidentally farting when your boss sits in the next stall. UGH.

[8circles]

I'm having trouble formulating any response that isn't sarcastic.  

I understand that people for whom this situation is new might be uncomfortable & it might take a while before they are "on board". 

There are all kinds of people in the world.  I'm sure that if I knew all sorts of private things about them I'd probably be able to take issue with some of their decisions and choices in life.  But it isn't my business.   Here we have someone who says they are a man and as such, should be using the mens room.  Unless I suspect that this person has some nefarious intentions in this quest to relieve himself among other men instead of women, it really isn't my business to say that they aren't a man.  

 

God forbid anyone be uncomfortable.

 

A man wants to use the mens room?  The nerve.   

[8circles]

Honestly, the worst thing about the work bathroom is going when my boss in the other stall. I have shared dinners and all sorts of things with bathrooms with trans women and nothing compares to accidentally farting when your boss sits in the next stall. UGH.

 

Truth.

[MercyA]

Your pity for people who are not like the majority is so incredibly insulting I don't even know where to start.

 

Aberration, freak, whatever you want to call it: I don't feel sorry for people who are not normal or typical except that statements like yours could be taken personally. In other words, the only pitiable thing about their situation in many cases is that they have to deal with statements like yours.

 

Think about that for a bit. You are the reason their life is so difficult. It's not the difference, it's the lack of love. There is nothing to pity but the fact that you pity them.

 

Maybe they love themselves. Maybe they are happy. Maybe they don't give a flying fart at a rolling donut whether or not the fact that they are not typical, makes other people uncomfortable because they don't place a high value on "make the majority comfortable" but instead have values like, oh, I don't know...

 

LOVE.

 

(And no, love is not "not being who I am so you don't have to deal with diversity" because then you have to love others by hating yourself. And that is not okay. Love in this situation is celebrating every last person and if something squeeges you out, just use the stall!)

 

Tsuga, I have to be quick. I was discussing this with my husband and although he agrees with me, he said that abberation was not a kind word to use and gave me a good example to demonstrate that. He is right. I apologize for not being kind and will change the post. I do not apologize for having sympathy for people who struggle (if, in fact, they do).

 

Speaking from a religious point of view, I do not believe it is at all loving to encourage people in the direction of possible sin, whether they feel happy in their life or not.

 

And, no, I take no responsibility for anyone's life being difficult, if I don't even know them. I would be as kind to a transgender person as to anyone else. If they asked for my opinion, I would give it.

 

Good night!

Edited February 13, 2016 by MercyA

[Daria]

I just don't get it. Go in, pee, WASH YOUR HANDS, and go back to work.

 

 

Also, please flush.

 

Otherwise I agree with everything you wrote.

[poppy]

No one gets everything they want. She's not the only one who works there, and her desire to use the men's room doesn't outweigh other people's discomfort with it. 

 

Leaving the pronouns aside: the reason I posted what I did was to refute the idea that a "mixed gender" room, in addition to having a male and female room, is a solution.  Simply because  the transgender person might not use it.  Here we have someone who has already expressed discomfort going to the women's room, and a desire to go to the men's room instead.  I don't think a mixed gender room would fix that person's problem.  Or, anyone else's.

[creekland]

Also, please flush.

 

Well aren't you being a little demandy...  :lol:

[Danestress]

I would be A-OK with restrooms being unisex. Truly. Go in the stall, do your business, wash your hands, and leave.

Right. Some of the very best law firm scenes in ally McBeal happened where? In the unisex!