Awkward work situation

[SKL]

I'm pretty conservative, I'm not saying it's all about the transitioning person.  I'm just wondering what is so sacred about the men's room.  Even if a woman had to go in there for some reason, I don't see what the big deal is.  Honestly.

 

I fully admit to having different feelings if the genders were reversed.  The reason being that (mainly in the case of strangers in public places) there is some risk that a biological male in the ladies' room is a physical danger to the women in there.  Still, in a work situation where everyone knows everyone, I would get over it.  It would probably be weird at first, but not so weird that I would file a complaint or anything like that.

 

If I personally could not deal with the possibility of a known trans person using the restroom s/he identifies with, I would go to another floor to use the facilities.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

I don't see how worldview trumps science and medical professionals in this situation.

 

While I can understand being uncomfortable with something unfamiliar or a big change, they need to get used to it.

 

 

 

I agree individual stalls would be great, then anyone could use them and have their desired privacy.

[Annie G]

I'm pretty conservative, I'm not saying it's all about the transitioning person.  I'm just wondering what is so sacred about the men's room.  Even if a woman had to go in there for some reason, I don't see what the big deal is.  Honestly.

 

 

 

I've been at concerts where the line for the women's restroom is really long but there's no line for the mens, and I have seen women barge into the men's room, hollering a casual 'ladies coming in' or something.  I always find it weird that it's 'ok' for women to do that but if the situation was reversed I doubt women would tolerate it. But the security guys at the venue don't do anything about it.  (I have a handful of friends who moonlight as security at the hockey games and concerts at that venue.)

 

I say take out the urinals, put stalls in, and forget about labeling bathrooms as being for men or women.  Probably won't happen anytime soon, though. 

[justasque]

I think the person should be able to use the restroom once they have had surgery and are completely in their new identity, but not a second sooner.  I don't want men in the women's room, but if they have *completely* made the transition, then I am fine with it.  I think the transgendered person's feelings are important, but so are the feelings of everyone else who is using that restroom.  Theirs aren't the only feelings that should be taken into consideration.

 

Actually, the transgender experience is more complicated than that.  Not everyone chooses to have surgery, for a variety of reasons.  And if you think about it, the status of one's genitals should be neither here nor there at work, as no one should be seeing them.  Even if you know someone is transgender, you generally don't know anything about the status of their genitals, which is as it should be.  Other people's genitals are, in normal circumstances, none of my business.

 

That said, I agree that everyone's feelings should be taken into account.  However, in this case, no one has so far proposed a solution in which none of the employees feel uncomfortable.  If it were that easy, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

I don't understand why everyone else has to feel uncomfortable because it's no big deal to just use the stalls. If that's true, then why can't the trans person just use the stalls in the other restroom instead of making everyone else uncomfortable?

 

Or why not do away with all men's and women's bathrooms and just have restrooms and everyone can get over it?

Again, if a person is presenting as male, and being perceived as male, in other words, looks and acts male, wouldn't that make women feel uncomfortable (and maybe even unsafe) if that person is using the women's restroom?

 

I agree that gender-neutral, single-stall bathrooms solve all kinds of problems, including disabled or young people who need assistance from opposite-gender caregivers.  In this case, however, this is not an option as there are no single-stall bathrooms in the building.

[PineFarmMom]

I would like to hear Texas T's idea on how a company should address this too. Sincerely.

I answered probably more than once: she should use the women's restroom. She is a woman. Only when we start convoluting the truth do these issues become this confusing and cost people money, time, etc. This issue has not been an issue until people to trade the truth for a lie. Now it is a big mess!! I really have no responses that will go much deeper than that. I guess I can restate it in different ways 100 times over. I really don't play this out in my mind much because I don't think it ever should have been messed with in the first place!!

[regentrude]

I don't understand why everyone else has to feel uncomfortable because it's no big deal to just use the stalls. If that's true, then why can't the trans person just use the stalls in the other restroom instead of making everyone else uncomfortable?

 

I am fairly sure that, in that case, it would make the women uncomfortable to see a male looking person use the women's restroom.

 

[clementine]

I answered probably more than once: she should use the women's restroom. She is a woman. Only when we start convoluting the truth do these issues become this confusing and cost people money, time, etc. This issue has not been an issue until people to trade the truth for a lie. Now it is a big mess!! I really have no responses that will go much deeper than that. I guess I can restate it in different ways 100 times over. I really don't play this out in my mind much because I don't think it ever should have been messed with in the first place!!

 

I think this is one of those times when we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  

[happi duck]

I'm very uncomfortable with a multiperson bathroom having a lock.

 

The intention is that someone checks that the bathroom is empty and then locks it but someone could also lock it to get someone alone.

[bolt.]

I'm pretty conservative, I'm not saying it's all about the transitioning person. I'm just wondering what is so sacred about the men's room. Even if a woman had to go in there for some reason, I don't see what the big deal is. Honestly.

 

I fully admit to having different feelings if the genders were reversed. The reason being that (mainly in the case of strangers in public places) there is some risk that a biological male in the ladies' room is a physical danger to the women in there. Still, in a work situation where everyone knows everyone, I would get over it. It would probably be weird at first, but not so weird that I would file a complaint or anything like that.

 

If I personally could not deal with the possibility of a known trans person using the restroom s/he identifies with, I would go to another floor to use the facilities.

If it's not too off topic, I'd like to ask about the idea of 'having different feelings if the genders were reversed' -- particularly in public settings.

 

I think I hear you saying that while any person is capable of common assault, that a person with male anatomy has (by definition) the anatomy required to perpetrate sexual assault. So, I think this means that you experience the current impression that a women's washroom is a place where common assault is possible, but safe from male-anatomy sexual assault, by virtue of being (obstensibly) free from male anatomy.

 

While I agree that, logically, the absence of male anatomy of course makes male-anatomy sexual assault impossible... I just don't see that the mere presence of male anatomy makes sexual assault terribly likely. We spend most of our time around plenty of male people, and do not find ourselves afraid that their anatomy makes them dangerous.

 

In the same way that we simultaneously know that the women in our washrooms conceivably *could* beat us up, kidnap our children, or rob us, and leave us injured and alone in the washroom to wait for help... Yet we manage to believe that most of them probably won't... I think we can do that for trans women (and their male anatomy) too.

 

If we find that difficult, we might ask ourselves why male anatomy is more threatening in a washroom than it is elsewhere, or why the male anatomy of a trans woman is more threatening than the male anatomy of a cis man.

[regentrude]

 Only when we start convoluting the truth do these issues become this confusing and cost people money, time, etc. This issue has not been an issue until people to trade the truth for a lie. Now it is a big mess!!

 

Transgendered and genderfluid people are not something new, and their treatment has always been an issue.

 

(ETA: The fact that the debate is now about restrooms as opposed to locking them up in insane asylums shows that we have come quite a long way.)

 

Edited February 12, 2016 by regentrude

[Annie G]

I'm very uncomfortable with a multiperson bathroom having a lock.

 

The intention is that someone checks that the bathroom is empty and then locks it but someone could also lock it to get someone alone.

 

 

I can see that as a valid concern. 

[bolt.]

I answered probably more than once: she should use the women's restroom. She is a woman. Only when we start convoluting the truth do these issues become this confusing and cost people money, time, etc. This issue has not been an issue until people to trade the truth for a lie. Now it is a big mess!! I really have no responses that will go much deeper than that. I guess I can restate it in different ways 100 times over. I really don't play this out in my mind much because I don't think it ever should have been messed with in the first place!!

So, you would be comfortable as a client of that law firm, to find yourself alone in a washroom with an employee who looks, sounds and dresses as a male, who may or may not have had surgery (how would you know?)?

 

Maybe you ask this person who is giving 100% male cues what he is doing in there, and he says, "I am a man, but my company makes me keep using this stall because 5 years ago I was originally hired while I was presenting as a woman."

 

And you would say, what? "That's fantastic. I hope your employer, friends and family keep up the pressure and rules so that you eventually give up on the lie that you are a supposedly a man and go back to presenting as a woman like you used to do."

[SKL]

If it's not too off topic, I'd like to ask about the idea of 'having different feelings if the genders were reversed' -- particularly in public settings.

 

I think I hear you saying that while any person is capable of common assault, that a person with male anatomy has (by definition) the anatomy required to perpetrate sexual assault. So, I think this means that you experience the current impression that a women's washroom is a place where common assault is possible, but safe from male-anatomy sexual assault, by virtue of being (obstensibly) free from male anatomy.

 

While I agree that, logically, the absence of male anatomy of course makes male-anatomy sexual assault impossible... I just don't see that the mere presence of male anatomy makes sexual assault terribly likely. We spend most of our time around plenty of male people, and do not find ourselves afraid that their anatomy makes them dangerous.

 

In the same way that we simultaneously know that the women in our washrooms conceivably *could* beat us up, kidnap our children, or rob us, and leave us injured and alone in the washroom to wait for help... Yet we manage to believe that most of them probably won't... I think we can do that for trans women (and their male anatomy) too.

 

If we find that difficult, we might ask ourselves why male anatomy is more threatening in a washroom than it is elsewhere, or why the male anatomy of a trans woman is more threatening than the male anatomy of a cis man.

 

Your interpretation of my concern is inaccurate.

 

I did say the concern was mainly in a public place with strangers.  A non-trans male could dress up like a lady and go in the restroom with the intention of harming women.  It has happened.  How would you know if a biological male stranger was actually trans or just pretending to be?  You wouldn't.

 

Also, it's more than just the presence of a penis.  It's the fact that most men are bigger and stronger than most women.  In general, it is much easier for a man to physically overpower a woman than vice versa.  Also, statistically women are far, far less likely to engage in violent felonies than men.  Does this change when a biological male decides to dress like a woman?  I doubt there are stats for that.

 

I am very much in favor of designing public bathrooms so that there is no need for "men's" and "ladies'" signs.  I have been in such restrooms while traveling and they serve the purpose just fine.

[J-rap]

I agree that it's all a little confusing and probably isn't something most of us have had to deal with before.  I think it's natural to feel uncomfortable, especially if it's someone you once knew as a different gender.

 

That being said, I think the best thing to do in that situation is to just roll with it and try not to make a big deal of it.  Regardless of people's opinions on the broader issue, this particular situation isn't hurting anyone and there are more important things to worry about.

[poppy]

Awkward happens in every office.   You get over it. That's not a disrespectful statement, it's reality.

The nail clipper.  The cougher.  The "every call on speakerphone".

Once my dad got a perm in the late 90s.  55-ish balding male with wispy straight hair comes in the next day with curls.  AWKWARD.

What do you do?

You keep calm and carry on.

 

I've had women I've not wanted to share a restroom with in the office for a variety of issues.  For example, a woman would talk on the phone while noisily relieving herself, ugh. I didn't like it.  I got over it.

 

If any men have reason to believe they are in danger from this person, the issue is far, far, far deeper than restroom sharing.

 

[PeacefulChaos]

They will need to adjust and get used to it.

 

That said, I can definitely understand their discomfort. It will take getting used to.

But they will get used to it with time.

[Guest]

Awkward happens in every office. You get over it. That's not a disrespectful statement, it's reality.

The nail clipper. The cougher. The "every call on speakerphone".

Once my dad got a perm in the late 90s. 55-ish balding male with wispy straight hair comes in the next day with curls. AWKWARD.

What do you do?

You keep calm and carry on.

 

I've had women I've not wanted to share a restroom with in the office for a variety of issues. For example, a woman would talk on the phone while noisily relieving herself, ugh. I didn't like it. I got over it.

 

If any men have reason to believe they are in danger from this person, the issue is far, far, far deeper than restroom sharing.

I don't think anyone feels in danger. And I think the awkwardness of "the person I knew a week ago as Sally is washing his hands while I whip out my pen!s at the urinal" is a bit more than "annoying girl clipping her nails at her desk".

[Guest]

I answered probably more than once: she should use the women's restroom. She is a woman. Only when we start convoluting the truth do these issues become this confusing and cost people money, time, etc. This issue has not been an issue until people to trade the truth for a lie. Now it is a big mess!! I really have no responses that will go much deeper than that. I guess I can restate it in different ways 100 times over. I really don't play this out in my mind much because I don't think it ever should have been messed with in the first place!!

That won't work because "she" now looks, talks, acts, lives as a man. Your opinion about it "not being messed with" is of little help. Would you really insist a transgender man use the woman's room?? What good would that do?

[Lanny]

One thing here is that the employer is a Law firm. They will want to try to help this employee, so they are not the Defendant in a lawsuit. If they owned the building, possibly they could build an additional bathroom, but in this case they rent/lease the office space, so that is probably not a possibility.  Probably the younger employees will adapt to this more quickly than the older employees.  

[ktgrok]

I don't think anyone feels in danger. And I think the awkwardness of "the person I knew a week ago as Sally is washing his hands while I whip out my pen!s at the urinal" is a bit more than "annoying girl clipping her nails at her desk".

 

So use a stall. Problem solved. 

[Guest]

Bathrooms should be biological sex assigned. Post surgery I can see a switch happening though.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[goldberry]

Actually, the transgender experience is more complicated than that.  Not everyone chooses to have surgery, for a variety of reasons.  

 

Also, isn't the transgendered person required to live a minimum of two years as the desired sex before being accepted for surgery?  (There is a transgendered person at one of my jobs, that was their experience.)

[PineFarmMom]

I think this is one of those times when we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm fine with that. I was just answering the question that was directed toward me. I don't expect it to be a popular opinion. It is mine and I stand by it!!

[goldberry]

That won't work because "she" now looks, talks, acts, lives as a man. Your opinion about it "not being messed with" is of little help. Would you really insist a transgender man use the woman's room?? What good would that do?

 

It seems like women who were new to the situation and just saw a person that presented as a man in the women's bathroom, would be more likely to be upset.

[ktgrok]

@Texas T, what about the women, including clients, who use the women's room and see what to all appearances is a man in there? Wouldn't that be more upsetting than to see what looks like a man in the men's room?

[MercyA]

I agree with Texas T on the whole. However, I think the most practical solution would be to change one of the bathrooms to a mixed gender bathroom and ask the employee in question to use it. This probably has the greatest chance of making the fewest people uncomfortable and would be low-cost.

[Guest]

I agree with Texas T on the whole. However, I think the most practical solution would be to change one of the bathrooms to a mixed gender bathroom and ask the employee in question to use it. This probably has the greatest chance of making the fewest people uncomfortable and would be low-cost.

That would be ideal. Just change the signage on one of women's bathrooms to mixed so anyone wanting to use it may do so at their own discretion.

[zoobie]

Bathrooms should be biological sex assigned. Post surgery I can see a switch happening though.

Are you going to DNA test employees and provide them with a swipe key card? Even after surgery, the trans person biologically retains whatever chromosomes existed at birth. If you mean just what the person's bits look like, who's going to check that? What should a person with both do?

[poppy]

That would be ideal. Just change the signage on one of women's bathrooms to mixed so anyone wanting to use it may do so at their own discretion.

 

Well, the transgendered person has stated he wants to use the men's room.  So he probably would continue to do so.

 

I think the mixed bathroom idea is likely discriminatory.  A sign showing where the preferred class of people (gender normative) are allowed to go vs where "anyone" is allowed to go is way too similar to a "whites only" sign.

[Daria]

Sorry but it is addressable with the topic of the post! The only answer I see in the future was the idea posed here of individual lockable restrooms. Those are pretty common anyway. The only disagreement I would have to that is if the employer has to shell out money for it. Employers shouldn't be held accountable to make these things work. Then that leads to government paying which means me paying, and well, I'm not for that either. The government is way way too into these issues as it is!! Maybe in the long run, those who feel the need to change gender should rally together and throw money into a big pot and fund it themselves. I'm sure that idea won't be applauded. Haha

 

Seems to me that the people with the unreasonable fear should be the ones to pay for the locks. 

 

The obvious solution here, though, is for the people who are uncomfortable sharing a restroom to walk up or down the stairs and use the mens' room on the other floor.  The person who is transitioning might even, as a olive branch type person, reassure people that he will only use the mens' room on the floor where his office is located.  It's frankly unfair to ask even that, but it might be less embarrassing for him to agree to that then to continue to have the dispute continue.  

[Guest]

I'm very uncomfortable with a multiperson bathroom having a lock.

 

The intention is that someone checks that the bathroom is empty and then locks it but someone could also lock it to get someone alone.

Why? If you had a concern, couldn't you just lock it when you were in there?

[Guest]

Well, the transgendered person has stated he wants to use the men's room. So he probably would continue to do so.

 

I think the mixed bathroom idea is likely discriminatory. A sign showing where the preferred class of people (gender normative) are allowed to go vs where "anyone" is allowed to go is way too similar to a "whites only" sign.

What? How could it be discriminatory to have men and women restrooms on one floor, family restrooms on another?

[happi duck]

Why? If you had a concern, couldn't you just lock it when you were in there?

I think someone mentioned seeing a lock on a store's bathroom. If I stop in a public bathroom I am not concerned at all. I'm just going to go, wash my hands and be on my way. I'd have no reason to lock it and make other people wait.

 

While I'm in a stall (or a guy is at a urinal) I don't like the idea that someone could step in the washroom and lock the door.

 

I'm surprised a multiperson public washroom would have a lock.

[Laura Corin]

In my organisation one employee has transitioned from male to female.  She uses the women's loo.  I can't see why it would be an issue.

[poppy]

What? How could it be discriminatory to have men and women restrooms on one floor, family restrooms on another?

Family restrooms in a workplace with no children? Mmmm hmmmm. You could try to sell that to a judge .

[kroe1]

I would bring in a port a potty and have the transitioner use that until the transition is complete. It is not the men's fault that the woman is transitioning. Therefore, their majority should not have to be uncomfortable. The transitioner should get over it, not them. Once she is fully transitioned, then the rest of them can get over it as HE would rightly be in the men's restroom.

[poppy]

I would bring in a port a potty and have the transitioner use that until the transition is complete. It is not the men's fault that the woman is transitioning. Therefore, their majority should not have to be uncomfortable. The transitioner should get over it, not them. Once she is fully transitioned, then the rest of them can get over it as HE would rightly be in the men's restroom.

 

This is a law firm, they are not going to make any employee's private medical business that public.

Nor should they. Say it was a person dealing with any other potentially awkward bathroom-related issue.

[zoobie]

I would bring in a port a potty and have the transitioner use that until the transition is complete. It is not the men's fault that the woman is transitioning. Therefore, their majority should not have to be uncomfortable. The transitioner should get over it, not them. Once she is fully transitioned, then the rest of them can get over it as HE would rightly be in the men's restroom.

Wow.

[Guest]

Family restrooms in a workplace with no children? Mmmm hmmmm. You could try to sell that to a judge .

It is a law office, not a bar. Children are in and out all the time. Besides, I still don't see how offering 3 kinds of restrooms could be discrimination?

[bolt.]

I would bring in a port a potty and have the transitioner use that until the transition is complete. It is not the men's fault that the woman is transitioning. Therefore, their majority should not have to be uncomfortable. The transitioner should get over it, not them. Once she is fully transitioned, then the rest of them can get over it as HE would rightly be in the men's restroom.

That's appalling.

[skimomma]

Wow.

 

No kidding.  Why not just ask the employee to wear a diaper?  That is about as ridiculous. 

[zoobie]

It is a law office, not a bar. Children are in and out all the time. Besides, I still don't see how offering 3 kinds of restrooms could be discrimination?

Offering it would be fine. Forcing one person to use it only would be discriminatory. (Which I didn't read you saying it would be forced.) Well, in some states. In others, you can just stone them in the lobby for being trans.

[bibiche]

Wow. So much intolerance. There is a great show on amazon that explores transgender issues, Transparent. A little risqué, but a very good show.

[creekland]

No kidding.  Why not just ask the employee to wear a diaper?  That is about as ridiculous. 

 

They could close all the restrooms and tell everyone to hold it or go out for lunch and take care of business.   :lol:

 

I still honestly fail to see why so many are uncomfortable with basic restroom use.  Parts are parts and doors are available to those who want them.  It's not a big deal really.

 

I guess I'm in the minority though.

[poppy]

It is a law office, not a bar. Children are in and out all the time. Besides, I still don't see how offering 3 kinds of restrooms could be discrimination?

 

The very intent is to discriminate, no? The transgender person says he wants to use the men's room.  The office, in using that as a prompt to switch to a "mixed gender" room, would be making a clear statement about that request.

 

It's also setting up a situation where everyone in the office has to take a stand about how they feel on the topic.  I imagine a scenario where the trans man continues uses the men's room, and suddenly several men will not use it anymore and instead go to the mixed room.  That is not setting anyone up for success.  It's just ugly. 

 

The alternative, I guess, is that some men won't use the men's room and instead walk over to the Starbucks.  Which is not great, but, it's more desirable than a workplace basically changing its policies in order to make it possible for everyone to avoid being in the same restrooms as the trans employee.

[Guest]

Wow. So much intolerance. There is a great show on amazon that explores transgender issues, Transparent. A little risqué, but a very good show.

When you make a statement like this, you should probably quote the people you are talking about. Unless you think we're all intolerant??

[Kerileanne99]

Yeah.

I just have to add that I truly hope some seriously consider outsourcing biology.

 

They are bathrooms. Used for relieving oneself.

I would love to see unisex bathrooms with stalls, and believe that is the only way forward. In the future it will (hopefully) be recognized that sex and gender are a continuum....

[Tsuga]

Because they are actually men and it is a men's restroom. She is and will always be a female. I would feel the same if a man wanted to come into a woman's restroom.

 

You're wrong.

 

You might feel strongly about it, but you are wrong about it. There is no one single characteristic that is coextensive with our society's definition of female sex (not XX, not vulva, not breasts, not ability to bear children, not making eggs, no one single thing). Same for male sex. There are X males, XX males, though rare of course, as well as males without a penis, or males without sperm, and males with breasts, and so on.

 

 

 

 It is not the men's fault that the woman is transitioning.

 

It is not his fault that his colleagues are unable to function in a modern work environment with a diverse workforce, either.

[zoobie]

The very intent is to discriminate, no? The transgender person says he wants to use the men's room. The office, in using that as a prompt to switch to a "mixed gender" room, would be making a clear statement about that request.

 

It's also setting up a situation where everyone in the office has to take a stand about how they feel on the topic. I imagine a scenario where the trans man continues uses the men's room, and suddenly several men will not use it anymore and instead go to the mixed room. That is not setting anyone up for success. It's just ugly.

 

The alternative, I guess, is that some men won't use the men's room and instead walk over to the Starbucks. Which is not great, but, it's more desirable than a workplace basically changing its policies in order to make it possible for everyone to avoid being in the same restrooms as the trans employee.

If you force the trans person to use the family room, it's discriminatory. If it's open to all employees and visitors, it's not discriminatory.

[Guest]

If you force the trans person to use the family room, it's discriminatory. If it's open to all employees and visitors, it's not discriminatory.

And no one is saying he can't use the men's room. This would just be a no-one-is-made-uncomfortable option. He realizes people are uncomfortable, hence the discussion.