Parenting Spoiled Children (article)

[Catwoman]

I don't know, I guess I think of getting a car as a milestone, like getting a first apartment. Something to be earned and to feel like an accomplishment. Not just a practical thing like medical bills, tutoring , extracurriculars which parents pay for by default. I grew up relatively well off in a working class area that was very very class conscious and perhaps that influences my view. That extravagant gifts are a big deal, and that there is virtue in waiting for the big stuff.

Thanks, poppy. I appreciate the explanation. :)

 

We will definitely never see eye to eye on this because I also plan to buy my ds his first house, so I hope we can agree to disagree. I don't think either of us is wrong; I think we just do things differently.

[Artichoke]

nm 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Artichoke

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't know, I guess I think of getting a car as a milestone, like getting a first apartment. Something to be earned and to feel like an accomplishment. Not just a practical thing like medical bills, tutoring , extracurriculars which parents pay for by default. I grew up relatively well off in a working class area that was very very class conscious and perhaps that influences my view. That extravagant gifts are a big deal, and that there is virtue in waiting for the big stuff.

 

I live in a working class area where nobody gives a durn about class consciousness. Here it's typical for the whole family to work together to get a teen his first (beater) car, because now there's another earner in the family who can go to work.

 

We just helped our second son buy a car. He'll pay us back the little bit that we assisted with, by the end of the year. I'm driving it right now while my eldest son drives my car to work in an attempt to earn enough money for his car by the time his college classes start.

 

In our area and in our family, a person's first car is rarely a status symbol or an extravagant gift. It's not even a sweet ride, actually. It's just a tool. It's necessary because the jobs are not within walking distance and we don't have reliable public transportation.

 

Now, when these boys get through college and are able to afford a really good car, that will be a big deal and probably a status symbol if they're doing well.

[Wheres Toto]

I don't know, I guess I think of getting a car as a milestone, like getting a first apartment. Something to be earned and to feel like an accomplishment. Not just a practical thing like medical bills, tutoring , extracurriculars which parents pay for by default. I grew up relatively well off in a working class area that was very very class conscious and perhaps that influences my view. That extravagant gifts are a big deal, and that there is virtue in waiting for the big stuff.

 

In our case the car was a practical thing not just some big elaborate gift.  We didn't get it so she could go hang out with friends whenever she wanted or even go to her extracurriculars. She needed it in high school to get to work and school (we had a somewhat unusual joint custody arrangement that was also a factor), and needs it in college to get to work.  If we waited until she could pay for it herself, she'd never get there because without the car she couldn't have a job.  Our circumstances didn't/don't allow for sharing a car without a lot of hardship to everyone and its even less doable since I returned to work.

 

There are conditions on her having the car - no accidents where she is at fault due to doing something stupid, no tickets for things like texting, speeding.  No dui.  Any of that would lose her the car immediately and she knows it.

 

ETA:  She doesn't have her own room - roommates at college and shares with her 8 year old sister at home, we have one bathroom for five people, she shares her closet with me.  The car is about all she has that's "hers".

[Bluegoat]

You lost me here completely. How does having a machine do the laundry make doing laundry a work "without dignity"? I have lived without a washing machine for several years, and hand washing clothes in a tub is a pain and time consuming (and gets less good results), but not any more dignified.

 

I would see much more of a danger of becoming disengaged from real life if I outsourced household tasks and paid another person to do them for me. Cleaning up their own mess instead of hiring a maid, yes, I think that keeps people grounded.

 

The reason I don't find household work "really fulfilling" is because it's no big deal:  it is easy, does not take much time, and millions of people who hold full time jobs manage it in a bit of their spare time. I do not dislike housework. And I'm pretty good and efficient at it. But I don't take particular "pride" in brushing my teeth or showering, and I see swiffing my living room floor or doing laundry as on the same level: they are life tasks. (Now, cooking a particularly nice meal, I can see that as an accomplishment, but the day-to-day cooking barely registers.)

I see a very big distinction between housework and child care; these two should not be conflated for the purpose of this discussion.

And I am referring to housework in a regular household, not running a farm.

 

Illych I think was commenting on the idea, which was proposed first by Aristotle but is fairly widespread, that when  we turn particular jobs over to a slave class we come to see that kind of work as being sub-human.  That can also be very clearly the case in societies with a very strong class system, even to the extreme of a caste system where the lower elements deal with things like human waste or remains while the upper elements maintain a kind of ritual purity.  Of course it is a false purity, because that waste still comes out of the bodies of the elite and they ultimately will be on the mortuary slab.  It creates a necessity for a very strange mental separation between the mind and body that mirrors the social stratification. 

 

it's been a common view, though there are a few different versions of it,  that the only way to overcome this kind of metal separation or cognitive dissonance about the self is to avoid having the slave or servant class so that each person is fairly directly responsible for his own body and also his duties to the community.  Some people have felt that modern western society has gone some way to accomplishing that through representative democracy on the political end, and an end to slavery and a significant reduction of the servant class on the economic side.  And to a significant extent technology has been behind a lot of that - we have electronic servants rather than human ones.

 

What Illych is suggesting though is that perhaps the fact that we aren't (or don't seem to be because arguably we still are and they are just farther away building us washing machines) exploiting or using people for our servants doesn't mean that we have actually avoided the mental state of the slave owner.  We may not be asking someone to do the work we require for our comfort and survival, but we still are not really doing it ourselves, and we probably don't want to - we think it would be a waste of time.  Better to free ourselves from the rather nasty but necessary work of doing laundry and do something else instead.  Which might be a perfectly legitimate choice, but what we choose instead will say something about how we value different kinds of work or activity. 

 

He does say the attitude is not entirely the same, mainly I think because you are not exploiting a person.  But he also says that having a person in front of you might be a kind of safeguard against really losing sight of the nature of work.  There are a lot of people who really have no clue how much energy or money or man-hours doing a load of laundry in a machine represents.

 

I certainly believe you don't think laundresses - or people who work as store clerks or in the Amazon warehouse -  are not doing dignified work, but I am not so sure our culture agrees entirely.  We don't seem to think we need to pay these kinds of people a living wage, and in fact when people agitate for living wages or better conditions it is almost ubiquitous to hear that if they want a better job they should train or work harder and do some other kind of work.  It's very much that same kind of cognitive dissonance in the slave system - we order from Amazon and so presumably want that work to be done, but we don't actually think it is dignified enough to pay them properly or give job security - a bit like someone who visits prostitutes but doesn't think they should be safe in their work because they are just ******.  So I am not inclined to think that our attitude to work is actually all that healthy.

 

As far as housework being no big deal - I am not suggesting you need to take pride in brushing your teeth or whatever - I mean something closer to it being acknowledged as something that needs to be done by people, and so time needs to be allotted to do it properly and without some sense of resentment. (Which would be weird for teeth but is a common attitude to housework or chores.) 

 

With children I think to the emphasis is a little different as they are becoming competent in first self-care, and then in doing their part for community life.  In a way the point is probably not feeling pride in it, but a sense that our contribution is a duty and not a fake one created for the sake of busy work.  I think that should be true too when young people go out to do community work - it needs to be real work. That sense of contributing is i think important to the development of self-image, especially in teens. I do think there is a sense in which even on an ongoing basis those contributions - even if they are small, can affect self-image and a sense of competence.  It's quite common to see in elderly people who are less able to do those things a real sense of becoming a burden, or may even feel something like a loss of autonomy - the ability to contribute, even in small and mundane ways, is clearly part of their adult self-image. 

[SKL]

Ha. No one here has their own room. Or their own car. Or even their own closet. Much less bathrooms.

 

We all live here and yet somehow we don't hate each other bc we don't have our own personal whatever.

 

I do have a problem with the concept that someone is somehow deprived if they not only don't have ___, but have their own with no obligation to others in their use of it.

 

I think it is self centered, often wasteful, and makes it hard for them to learn how to gladly sacrifice for others or even delay their own gratification for a higher cause.

 

I used to feel similarly, but then I made friends with people who had a different experience.  They were indulged and felt that the experience of being indulged made them more open-hearted, more able to see and willing to respond to the needs of others.  And these people truly were open-hearted, generous and considerate despite being financially broke at the time.

 

Always hearing "no, you can't have that" (as I did as a kid) can make for a chronically unsatisfied, stingy, selfish person.  One who has to learn to let go of his own insecurities before he can begin to share from his heart.

 

(The third paragraph above - I am not sure who said anything like that in this thread.  I didn't notice anyone saying a kid is "deprived" if he doesn't have something expensive all to himself.)

[regentrude]

What Illych is suggesting though is that perhaps the fact that we aren't (or don't seem to be because arguably we still are and they are just farther away building us washing machines) exploiting or using people for our servants doesn't mean that we have actually avoided the mental state of the slave owner.  We may not be asking someone to do the work we require for our comfort and survival, but we still are not really doing it ourselves, and we probably don't want to - we think it would be a waste of time.  Better to free ourselves from the rather nasty but necessary work of doing laundry and do something else instead.  Which might be a perfectly legitimate choice, but what we choose instead will say something about how we value different kinds of work or activity. 

 

Oh, definitely, I would argue that many people find a use for their time which they consider more valuable. In the 14th century, technology made huge progress and it was, for the first time, possible to have a large surplus that freed up a larger group of people from spending their days on the bare survival - which brought about the Renaissance with its  growth in education, science, arts. A watermill is a vastly superior tool for grinding grain than two slabs of stone. I am glad Michelangelo and Galilei did get to make their contributions to humankind by using their unique talents instead of having to have their talent wither because they had to perform mundane tasks just to survive.

If anything, I consider it highly desirable to remove as many mundane and boring tasks from the repertoire of human work, because it frees up humans to live up to their full potential. They can educate themselves, they can fully embrace their creativity, they can be compassionate carers for others - without wasting energy on tasks that are no longer necessary. In another post I mentioned heating: I can see no disadvantage in not having to deal with shoveling coal, carrying coal, carrying ashes, coaxing a fire, all for inferior results. The task has become obsolete, and the  time spent is free for more rewarding pursuits.

Now, some people will take great pleasure and a sense of accomplishment in performing archaic tasks, and they are free to do so if it makes them happy. I applaud my friends who homestead, who spin and weave etc. But for them it is how they choose to express themselves, how to use their talents - they are not forced to do this by external circumstances.

For most people, having that washing machine means more time to spend with their children, or to nourish their soul by listening to a concert, or to expand their horizon by reading a book, or to paint, garden, invent... Which I most definitely consider a bigger contribution to their growth as human, and to the growth of those with whom they interact, than spending hours on cleaning clothes that get dirty again.

Don't you think most people would prefer fulfilling work? This has nothing to do with not respecting and appreciating the workers and their work.

 

 

I certainly believe you don't think laundresses - or people who work as store clerks or in the Amazon warehouse -  are not doing dignified work, but I am not so sure our culture agrees entirely.  We don't seem to think we need to pay these kinds of people a living wage, and in fact when people agitate for living wages or better conditions it is almost ubiquitous to hear that if they want a better job they should train or work harder and do some other kind of work. 

 

Which is shameful, I agree.

 

 

 

As far as housework being no big deal - I am not suggesting you need to take pride in brushing your teeth or whatever - I mean something closer to it being acknowledged as something that needs to be done by people, and so time needs to be allotted to do it properly and without some sense of resentment. (Which would be weird for teeth but is a common attitude to housework or chores.) 

 

This I wholeheartedly agree with. If anything is worth doing at all, it is worth doing it well. I don't resent housework, it is a part of life, and I strive to do it as efficiently as I can. Which means combining tasks and setting up daily life so that the household tasks are easy to perform (i.e. no clutter, no decorative furniture, things get put back in their place, online bill pay - you know what I mean)

 

 

 

With children I think to the emphasis is a little different as they are becoming competent in first self-care, and then in doing their part for community life.  In a way the point is probably not feeling pride in it, but a sense that our contribution is a duty and not a fake one created for the sake of busy work.  I think that should be true too when young people go out to do community work - it needs to be real work. That sense of contributing is i think important to the development of self-image, especially in teens.

 

Again, we agree. My kids have both helped us parents with work related tasks, and they were always anxious to inquire whether they really helped (and were not just humored by us). Fake "work" is insulting to the child. Children need meaningful tasks.

[kimberlapoderosa]

I am new here, so be gentle.  :)

 

My husband actually sent this article to me the other day because it could be written about the parents in our town.  Parenting here is like an olympic sport.  We definitely see young people driving luxury cars, but I really doubt that it has anything to do with the parents wanting them to have a safe vehicle.  Everything is a competition, from the clothes the kids wear, to the sports team they are on, their grades in school, the instruments they play, the groups they are in...it goes on and on.  

 

The teachers at the schools have to deal with the constant phone calls from parents when little Johnny or little Suzy didn't get the grade the parent wanted.  (I know, because I used to be a teacher!)  Imagine a school project where parents are calling and complaining because the neighbor kid got a better grade than their child and they demand to know why.  The really funny thing is that both projects were done by the parents and the child had nothing to do with it.  They can't stand to see their child have to deal with disappointments.  

 

What really makes me nuts about it is that none of it seems to be for the benefit of the children.  It is all about the parents and how they can show how wonderful they are at parenting.  They must be doing a wonderful job, right?  Because little Sam is on honor roll every time and he has his black belt all ready (or plays on travel baseball or soccer or swim or whatever) and he is wearing the newest clothes and has the newest computer and look how nicely he is sitting.  (as Mom hands him a $20)  Next thing you know these kids are in high school mouthing off to the teacher because they know they can get away with it, stealing prescription drugs out of mom and dads bathroom, and not worrying about it when they do poorly on something at school because they know they can count on a parent to call and fix it if something goes wrong.  

 

I get what the author was saying.  There is nothing wrong with wanting the best for our kids, the problem comes in when our children expect to be given these things.  It is bad when they feel it is owed to them.  If you get a luxury car for your child to drive and they appreciate it and understand the value behind it that is one thing.  When you get a luxury car for your drive because the Smith's down the street got one for their kid and your kid expects an even better one, than that is definitely a problem!  

 

These are parents who are afraid to tell their children "no" because what if the child doesn't like them anymore?  I am often shocked how some of the kids around here speak to their parents..and the parents let them!  The parent-child relationship is off balance.  A perfect example was the student I had when I was teaching middle school.  He didn't like the cafeteria food and he didn't want to pack a lunch, so his mom showed up every day at lunch time with a lunch for him that she would buy at subway or Panera or whatever else he felt like eating that day.  How can it be good for a young person to believe that they deserve to have every desire met for them?  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well I must be doing housework wrong, because I never have enough time to keep up with it.  It takes a long time to get anything done.  I keep seeing people saying how it is so easy and takes no time at all etc, but that is not my experience at all.  Then again I am hardly home it seems and when I am I am teaching kids or studying my own homework.  But housework seems to be something that is actually challenging to me.  

 

As for growing up spoiled by not doing chores.  I don't know.  I have seen many kids who never have to lift a finger to help at home, not even things like put their own backpack away when they get home from school.  And while it may not make them a spoiled brat it does make them someone challenging to live with as adults.  Look at how many times we see posts from people frustrated that their husbands don't help around the house ever because growing up they never had to, their mother did everything for them.  Yes some grow up and figure it out, but many have no clue HOW to do the chores until they are on their own and suddenly their apartment or dorm room looks like a sty, or they find someone else to do it for them.  So yeah it may not be what many consider spoiled, but it certainly is not an independent adult that contributes to the cleanliness of the home either.  

 

 

 

Again, I did not have regular chores growing up.  I have no trouble managing household tasks.  I don't know that there is really a connection.  I wonder if some kids who did constant chores grow up to resent it and just decide not to do too many chores in their own homes.  Totally speculating here though.

 

I don't attempt to keep up with it.  It is always there.  I have to work on it daily.  As soon as it's done, there is more.  Just the way it is.  I don't think about it.  It's not top priority.

[Bluegoat]

Oh, definitely, I would argue that many people find a use for their time which they consider more valuable. In the 14th century, technology made huge progress and it was, for the first time, possible to have a large surplus that freed up a larger group of people from spending their days on the bare survival - which brought about the Renaissance with its  growth in education, science, arts. A watermill is a vastly superior tool for grinding grain than two slabs of stone. I am glad Michelangelo and Galilei did get to make their contributions to humankind by using their unique talents instead of having to have their talent wither because they had to perform mundane tasks just to survive.

If anything, I consider it highly desirable to remove as many mundane and boring tasks from the repertoire of human work, because it frees up humans to live up to their full potential. They can educate themselves, they can fully embrace their creativity, they can be compassionate carers for others - without wasting energy on tasks that are no longer necessary. In another post I mentioned heating: I can see no disadvantage in not having to deal with shoveling coal, carrying coal, carrying ashes, coaxing a fire, all for inferior results. The task has become obsolete, and the  time spent is free for more rewarding pursuits.

Now, some people will take great pleasure and a sense of accomplishment in performing archaic tasks, and they are free to do so if it makes them happy. I applaud my friends who homestead, who spin and weave etc. But for them it is how they choose to express themselves, how to use their talents - they are not forced to do this by external circumstances.

For most people, having that washing machine means more time to spend with their children, or to nourish their soul by listening to a concert, or to expand their horizon by reading a book, or to paint, garden, invent... Which I most definitely consider a bigger contribution to their growth as human, and to the growth of those with whom they interact, than spending hours on cleaning clothes that get dirty again.

Don't you think most people would prefer fulfilling work? This has nothing to do with not respecting and appreciating the workers and their work.

 

 

 

Since we agree on everything else, I'll only address this.

 

I think that freedom through technology can be a positive thing, but it involves trade-offs that should be considered consciously, and it also can sometimes lead us to unfortunate situations without really realizing it.

 

The question of what makes work fulfilling is an interesting one, for example, and why some kinds of work are considered non-fulfilling.  We can bring quite a lot of baggage to that question I think.

 

In relation to that I would note how often it is that physical work is what is considered non-fulfilling, while mental work is considered a greater or more complete use of human potential.  I would agree if people must spend all their time on survival they will be ignoring an important part of what it means to be human.  But I would also argue that we are bodies as well as spirits - if we lose our connection to our physicality, and our physical link to the rest of nature, we are also not fully inhibiting our humanity.  This is I think the Romantic view of work - it rejected the industrial revolution on the one hand because it removed agency and creativity and innovation from the individual worker, but on the other hand it also saw embodying those things materially as part of fulfilled humanity.  So a potter might be better than a pot factory, even though it is slower and perhaps means doing more work to produce the number of pots you need.  Deciding not to perform archaic tasks is very often not a decision people make - they use electric heat rather than cut their own wood because it never occurs to them to do so, they have no idea what value it might have on its own, and they don't know how or have the tools. 

 

I think alienation from the physical world has become really common in western culture and it can be seen especially in children.  The idea of nature deficits has been studied a fair bit.  many children have spent far more time building things on Minecraft - which is to say not building anything - than they ever have building anything real.  Schools, if they have vocational programs, give them lip service and they don't encourage the brightest students in that direction. 

 

Anyway, my dinner guest is here so I'll say good night!

 

 

 

 

[Catwoman]

I am new here, so be gentle. :)

 

My husband actually sent this article to me the other day because it could be written about the parents in our town. Parenting here is like an olympic sport. We definitely see young people driving luxury cars, but I really doubt that it has anything to do with the parents wanting them to have a safe vehicle. Everything is a competition, from the clothes the kids wear, to the sports team they are on, their grades in school, the instruments they play, the groups they are in...it goes on and on.

 

The teachers at the schools have to deal with the constant phone calls from parents when little Johnny or little Suzy didn't get the grade the parent wanted. (I know, because I used to be a teacher!) Imagine a school project where parents are calling and complaining because the neighbor kid got a better grade than their child and they demand to know why. The really funny thing is that both projects were done by the parents and the child had nothing to do with it. They can't stand to see their child have to deal with disappointments.

 

What really makes me nuts about it is that none of it seems to be for the benefit of the children. It is all about the parents and how they can show how wonderful they are at parenting. They must be doing a wonderful job, right? Because little Sam is on honor roll every time and he has his black belt all ready (or plays on travel baseball or soccer or swim or whatever) and he is wearing the newest clothes and has the newest computer and look how nicely he is sitting. (as Mom hands him a $20) Next thing you know these kids are in high school mouthing off to the teacher because they know they can get away with it, stealing prescription drugs out of mom and dads bathroom, and not worrying about it when they do poorly on something at school because they know they can count on a parent to call and fix it if something goes wrong.

 

I get what the author was saying. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best for our kids, the problem comes in when our children expect to be given these things. It is bad when they feel it is owed to them. If you get a luxury car for your child to drive and they appreciate it and understand the value behind it that is one thing. When you get a luxury car for your drive because the Smith's down the street got one for their kid and your kid expects an even better one, than that is definitely a problem!

 

These are parents who are afraid to tell their children "no" because what if the child doesn't like them anymore? I am often shocked how some of the kids around here speak to their parents..and the parents let them! The parent-child relationship is off balance. A perfect example was the student I had when I was teaching middle school. He didn't like the cafeteria food and he didn't want to pack a lunch, so his mom showed up every day at lunch time with a lunch for him that she would buy at subway or Panera or whatever else he felt like eating that day. How can it be good for a young person to believe that they deserve to have every desire met for them?

Welcome to the forum, kimberlapoderosa! :)

[goldberry]

Maybe you can explain it to me.

 

"If housework is not really fulfilling work that someone can take pride in, what does this say about people who do that kind of work?"

 

I think the two are unconnected. Do people take advantage of cheap labor and underestimate the value of their house cleaners? No doubt. I'm sure it happens all the time. But that's not universal by any means. Hiring someone else to clean a home doesn't say anything more than they can afford to outsource this job. 

 

 

 

 

Work that is turned over to slaves, of whatever kind, becomes work that is without dignity. 

 

This disengages us from the work, and ultimately from ourselves who need the work done to live - and it can also tend to disengage us from people who do that kind of work.  If housework is not really fulfilling work that someone can take pride in, what does this say about people who do that kind of work?  Isn't this why traditional women's work for example has so consistently, and still is, less valued than other kinds of work?  Today women who do fulfilling work do "men's" work and people who work in those jobs - child-care or cleaning or elder-care - are still seen, treated, and paid as if their work is somehow compromised.

 

 

 

Albeto, I was focusing more on the aspect I quoted, which is the quality of many people to view certain work without as dignity, or to personally "disengage" from people who do work we might see as unfulfilling.  As I mentioned, it is indeed easier to do for someone who has never had to do work that is difficult or unfulfilling, but obviously no, that is not the only factor. 

 

I am sure there are kids that always had their every wish fulfilled, didn't have to pick up their own backpack, etc. yet still turned out okay.  That doesn't mean that's the best way to go about it though, or that is the norm for kids who are treated like that.  I do think it contributes *somewhat* (as in, along with many other factors) to our general societal tendency to judge others based on what sort of work they perform.

[LibraryLover]

I'm very much a chop wood, carry water, feed the chickens kind of of person, I get a great deal of satisfaction in caring for my abode and peeps.i find it grounding and centering. Not that I like scrubbing floors. I don't. lol I've even chopped wood for the fireplace. I did want my children to have certain skills, although I think teaching them to do things may have backfired. The kid who did his own laundry starting at age 12 now even has his boxers picked up and delivered by a laundry service. Kid does no laundry at all. Hey, city life is tough, you need so many quarters! Lol

[Guest]

Again, I did not have regular chores growing up. I have no trouble managing household tasks. I don't know that there is really a connection. I wonder if some kids who did constant chores grow up to resent it and just decide not to do too many chores in their own homes. Totally speculating here though.

 

I don't attempt to keep up with it. It is always there. I have to work on it daily. As soon as it's done, there is more. Just the way it is. I don't think about it. It's not top priority.

Yeah, I really think so much is about the personality of the child. Some people hate disarray, some don't notice it or care. My mom was a terrible housekeeper. (My dad was neat, but did not view housework as a male chore.) i despised it. Disorder ramps up my anxiety. From age 13 on, my bedroom was neat as a pin - despite the fact that I shared a bedroom until my upper teens because of bigger family.

 

My siblings all vary in how neat/messy they are and you can see a clear line with how similar their personalities are to my mom (creative, spontaneous, scattered) or like my dad (detailed, orderly, sustematic.) my mother has even marvelled at the way we do counter cross stitch, which my dad had as a hobby. He (and I) stitched very neatly. Mom would say the back of the project looks just like the front. Mom would cross stitch and the back would be a hot, tangled string mess. Personality. Nobody taught me to care how neat the back was; it's just a result of the systematic way I think.

[Library Momma]

I am new here, so be gentle.   :)

 

My husband actually sent this article to me the other day because it could be written about the parents in our town.  Parenting here is like an olympic sport.  We definitely see young people driving luxury cars, but I really doubt that it has anything to do with the parents wanting them to have a safe vehicle.  Everything is a competition, from the clothes the kids wear, to the sports team they are on, their grades in school, the instruments they play, the groups they are in...it goes on and on.  

 

The teachers at the schools have to deal with the constant phone calls from parents when little Johnny or little Suzy didn't get the grade the parent wanted.  (I know, because I used to be a teacher!)  Imagine a school project where parents are calling and complaining because the neighbor kid got a better grade than their child and they demand to know why.  The really funny thing is that both projects were done by the parents and the child had nothing to do with it.  They can't stand to see their child have to deal with disappointments.  

 

What really makes me nuts about it is that none of it seems to be for the benefit of the children.  It is all about the parents and how they can show how wonderful they are at parenting.  They must be doing a wonderful job, right?  Because little Sam is on honor roll every time and he has his black belt all ready (or plays on travel baseball or soccer or swim or whatever) and he is wearing the newest clothes and has the newest computer and look how nicely he is sitting.  (as Mom hands him a $20)  Next thing you know these kids are in high school mouthing off to the teacher because they know they can get away with it, stealing prescription drugs out of mom and dads bathroom, and not worrying about it when they do poorly on something at school because they know they can count on a parent to call and fix it if something goes wrong.  

 

I get what the author was saying.  There is nothing wrong with wanting the best for our kids, the problem comes in when our children expect to be given these things.  It is bad when they feel it is owed to them.  If you get a luxury car for your child to drive and they appreciate it and understand the value behind it that is one thing.  When you get a luxury car for your drive because the Smith's down the street got one for their kid and your kid expects an even better one, than that is definitely a problem!  

 

These are parents who are afraid to tell their children "no" because what if the child doesn't like them anymore?  I am often shocked how some of the kids around here speak to their parents..and the parents let them!  The parent-child relationship is off balance.  A perfect example was the student I had when I was teaching middle school.  He didn't like the cafeteria food and he didn't want to pack a lunch, so his mom showed up every day at lunch time with a lunch for him that she would buy at subway or Panera or whatever else he felt like eating that day.  How can it be good for a young person to believe that they deserve to have every desire met for them?  

 

This.  It is not about cars or chores but a sense of entitlement that some kids have, and they get that from their parents.  Adults who park in the fire lane raise kids who park in the fire lane.

[hepatica]

This.  It is not about cars or chores but a sense of entitlement that some kids have, and they get that from their parents.  Adults who park in the fire lane raise kids who park in the fire lane.

 

This is a running joke in our household. We live in an area where people sincerely think the rules just don't apply to them. It is an undeniable sense of entitlement.

[Guest]

Since we agree on everything else, I'll only address this.

 

I think that freedom through technology can be a positive thing, but it involves trade-offs that should be considered consciously, and it also can sometimes lead us to unfortunate situations without really realizing it.

 

The question of what makes work fulfilling is an interesting one, for example, and why some kinds of work are considered non-fulfilling. We can bring quite a lot of baggage to that question I think.

 

In relation to that I would note how often it is that physical work is what is considered non-fulfilling, while mental work is considered a greater or more complete use of human potential. I would agree if people must spend all their time on survival they will be ignoring an important part of what it means to be human. But I would also argue that we are bodies as well as spirits - if we lose our connection to our physicality, and our physical link to the rest of nature, we are also not fully inhibiting our humanity. This is I think the Romantic view of work - it rejected the industrial revolution on the one hand because it removed agency and creativity and innovation from the individual worker, but on the other hand it also saw embodying those things materially as part of fulfilled humanity. So a potter might be better than a pot factory, even though it is slower and perhaps means doing more work to produce the number of pots you need. Deciding not to perform archaic tasks is very often not a decision people make - they use electric heat rather than cut their own wood because it never occurs to them to do so, they have no idea what value it might have on its own, and they don't know how or have the tools.

 

I think alienation from the physical world has become really common in western culture and it can be seen especially in children. The idea of nature deficits has been studied a fair bit. many children have spent far more time building things on Minecraft - which is to say not building anything - than they ever have building anything real. Schools, if they have vocational programs, give them lip service and they don't encourage the brightest students in that direction.

 

Anyway, my dinner guest is here so I'll say good night!

 

 

 

 

Very astute, Bluegoat. I agree. This is why I just made 12 pints of home grown, home canned picle relish. The argument goes, "Why would you do this? You can buy 12 pints of relish for probably a dollar a piece." Yes, I could. But there are a whole host of values I enjoy engaging in and I like for my children to help and see this modeled. Too many kids (nevermind adults) have no connection to what it takes for a jar of pickle relish to be made. This also saves resources, as my jars are re-used for decades. (Some of my quart jars were already forty years old when my MIL gave them to me.) Yes it is easier and cheaper to just buy some relish when relish needs arise, but I think the values I am trying to model are priceless.

[Murphy101]

I used to feel similarly, but then I made friends with people who had a different experience. They were indulged and felt that the experience of being indulged made them more open-hearted, more able to see and willing to respond to the needs of others. And these people truly were open-hearted, generous and considerate despite being financially broke at the time.

 

Always hearing "no, you can't have that" (as I did as a kid) can make for a chronically unsatisfied, stingy, selfish person. One who has to learn to let go of his own insecurities before he can begin to share from his heart.

 

(The third paragraph above - I am not sure who said anything like that in this thread. I didn't notice anyone saying a kid is "deprived" if he doesn't have something expensive all to himself.)

There is a vast galactic middle ground between being financially spoiled and always hearing no.

 

I didn't say anyone here was calling others deprived. I said I do see that in the world and I have a problem with it.

 

Also, I don't agree having expensive things is what spoiling is. I think the concept of spoiling and sacrifice often have little to do with economics and far more about communal relationships and personalities in the home.

[Murphy101]

Very astute, Bluegoat. I agree. This is why I just made 12 pints of home grown, home canned picle relish. The argument goes, "Why would you do this? You can buy 12 pints of relish for probably a dollar a piece." Yes, I could. But there are a whole host of values I enjoy engaging in and I like for my children to help and see this modeled. Too many kids (nevermind adults) have no connection to what it takes for a jar of pickle relish to be made. This also saves resources, as my jars are re-used for decades. (Some of my quart jars were already forty years old when my MIL gave them to me.) Yes it is easier and cheaper to just buy some relish when relish needs arise, but I think the values I am trying to model are priceless.

Amen. I hear that about:

 

Home schooling

Gardening

Putting up a pool

Knitting

Teaching penmanship

Math without a calculator

...

[SereneHome]

Still on page 1....

 

I don't think it's the kids, I think it's adults.  While yes, every generation gets "well, in our good ol' days..."  I do think that our society today has much more of an entitlement mentality than every before.  And of course it will transfer to the children. 

 

Also, I don't think a kids having chores or not having chores really means anything.  I think the mindset and attitude are much more important.

[PeacefulChaos]

Huh.

 

I liked the article.  

 

I made the mistake of reading a few responses, to find people offended by it, which is confusing to me... but whatevs. *shrug*  

 

 

I don't think my kids are spoiled, but sometimes they are a little bit less than grateful.  Sometimes I hate the idea of someone giving them another toy.  I really would like to go through their rooms and take out 3/4 of the stuff in there because it doesn't get played with, but so far I just haven't had the time.

 

So while I don't look at it and think 'that's so my kids' I can definitely see a lot of modern parenting described in the article.  I know people who insisted that they needed a DVD player in the car because they'd have to drive 4 hours.  Do I care that they wanted one?  No.  Not my business.  But we can't all just sit here and pretend that people aren't trying to make things as convenient as possible.  I'm a person who likes technology, but I don't take the iPad everywhere just so that Pink is entertained while her brothers do activities - she can find her own ways of entertaining herself.  

 

I want to raise my children to be independent, able to handle themselves, and polite.  I don't want to be responsible for raising brats.  

[myfunnybunch]

Very astute, Bluegoat. I agree. This is why I just made 12 pints of home grown, home canned picle relish. The argument goes, "Why would you do this? You can buy 12 pints of relish for probably a dollar a piece." Yes, I could. But there are a whole host of values I enjoy engaging in and I like for my children to help and see this modeled. Too many kids (nevermind adults) have no connection to what it takes for a jar of pickle relish to be made. This also saves resources, as my jars are re-used for decades. (Some of my quart jars were already forty years old when my MIL gave them to me.) Yes it is easier and cheaper to just buy some relish when relish needs arise, but I think the values I am trying to model are priceless.

 

I believe there is a board rule about mentioning making yummy food and recipe-sharing. :D

 

If you don't mind sharing??? I'd love a good pickle relish recipe. My ds likes to eat soy butter and relish sandwiches like they're going out of style. I think it's foul and heinous and should be against the rules of food, but I guess if he's going to eat that much relish, I'd rather it be homemade.

[SKL]

Also, I don't agree having expensive things is what spoiling is. I think the concept of spoiling and sacrifice often have little to do with economics and far more about communal relationships and personalities in the home.

 

I wasn't talking about having expensive things in my comment which you quoted.  I was talking about people who never ever had to lift a finger to help keep the house neat or take care of their own things, because they had a dozen house servants.  Who, as young kids, had a team of people work together to get them to eat (feeding them by hand) even after they started school (their servants would bring them freshly-cooked food and feed it into their mouths at school lunch time).  Who were always given a treat or positive attention at the first sign of whimpering or pouting.  My friend used to demand that her mom put her socks on exactly a certain way, and if she didn't, kid would scream and rip the socks off, and mom would patiently put them on again (better this time).  (My friend told me this herself.)  Another friend (other part of the world) told me how he used to come home from school and disrobe, dropping his clothes wherever he happened to be standing / walking through, and his maid would follow behind him, pick them up, and take care of them.  This was normal in those cultures (at least at their status levels).  These and others like them grew up to be some of the nicest, most responsible people I've known.

[Lady Florida.]

My dd's car is in dh's name.   That doesn't change the fact that it's "her" car.  She drives it 99% of the time, doesn't have to ask for permission to use it.  It's hers to take to school and work.  

 

This seems like semantics.  If it's in her name it's wrong, if it's in our name it's okay.  What's the difference?

 

Ha! I just got off the phone with my insurance agent, having called to let them know we have a newly licensed teen driver. They listed him on our oldest vehicle, even though he's covered to drive both. She told me that if he does get a car of his own, it would be best to keep it in our names. Once he has a car in his name that's the one he'll have to be insured for. Since we do plan on making sure he has a safe, reliable car, it's not likely to be our oldest car. So there's the difference. At least $800 a year. I'm not directing this response to you,  just using your question to point that out. Since you have a young driver you probably already know this anyway.

 

It's still going to be his car, just like your dd's is hers.

[Guest]

I believe there is a board rule about mentioning making yummy food and recipe-sharing. :D

 

If you don't mind sharing??? I'd love a good pickle relish recipe. My ds likes to eat soy butter and relish sandwiches like they're going out of style. I think it's foul and heinous and should be against the rules of food, but I guess if he's going to eat that much relish, I'd rather it be homemade.

Okay. :) This recipe is originally from "The Canning Kitchen" by Amy Bronee.

 

4 lb. cucumbers

2 1/2 C finely diced yellow onion

3/4 C diced green bell pepper

1/2 C diced red bell pepper

1/4 C pickling salt

2 1/2 C white vinegar

1 3/4 C granulated sugar

1 tbsp celery seeds

 

Rinse and then finely chop cukes in a food processor. In a large bowl, stir together cukes, onion, peppers and salt. Let stand for an hour.drain vegetables in a fine meshed seive lined with cheesecloth. Sqeeze out excess liquid. Transfer to a large, heavy bottomed pot.. Stir in vinegar, sugar and celery seed. Bring to boil. Reduce heat and cook for 5 minutes, stirring. Remove from heat.

Ladel into clean jars (i used pints), leave 1/2 inch headspace. Poke with non-metal skewer to remove air bubbles. Top with jar lid and process in a boiling water bath canner for 15 min.

 

 

I did throw in two small zucchini i happened to have as well.

[Susan in TN]

Every generation has different circumstances to address. My point is our kids are no more or less "bad" than kids of previous generation, just like we weren't more "bad" than the generation that preceded us. That article is full of self-righteous moralizing and blaming, and I objected to that. It's a tired old trope that breaks down rather easily.

I wonder if part of this comes from being blind to the foibles of ones own generation. It is easier to recognize (and sometimes, unfortunately, more satisfying to call out) the blind spots that are not your own.

 

Reminds me of something I think C.S. Lewis wrote about - one of the reasons it is so important to read works from different generations/centuries is that while we may be blind to our own cultural mistakes, we can more easily recognize the cultural blind spots of other centuries and sift through them to get to the universal truths that hold true for all generations.

 

That is a really bad summation, but I think it is the essence of what he was saying.

[myfunnybunch]

Yummy, Quill! Thank you! (And thanks from ds12, too, as I am sure he'll be happy to see jars of relish in the pantry.)

[MotherGoose]

I want to make sure my children grow up not thinking they are too good to do anything, and to have all the necessary skillsto operate a house, deal with vehicles (not changing oil, but just basic responsibilities), and to have a spirit of being willing to pitch in when other people need help. I also don't want them to grow up expecting elaborate gifts, and I want them to accept, without much if any protest, "the answer is no, you can't have or do that." So for example, sometimes, on special occasions, we get the free cookie at Moes, but most of the time we don't because it's not good for you to eat cookies frequently. There is no protest, because I have told them if they do, the answer will always be no. As for work, I expect them to help out when I ask them to, and they have regular chores. A great example of meaningful work occurred this summer when my mother, who had a broken foot, and I, who am pregnant, were out picking my blackberries for a pie. It was very hot, and none of us really wanted to be out there, but we wanted the pie! The girls were picking the low berries, and the adults were picking the high ones. The girls were whining about the heat and wanted to go inside, and I told them that if they didn't help pick and stop the whining, we'd make the pie and not give them a bit, and they Knew I meant it. I also told them one more word of whining and they'd be done picking and would go inside to no pie. They closed their mouths, got busy, and enjoyed pie later :). And learned about about "those who don't work, don't eat."

[regentrude]

I A great example of meaningful work occurred this summer when my mother, who had a broken foot, and I, who am pregnant, were out picking my blackberries for a pie. It was very hot, and none of us really wanted to be out there, but we wanted the pie! The girls were picking the low berries, and the adults were picking the high ones. The girls were whining about the heat and wanted to go inside, and I told them that if they didn't help pick and stop the whining, we'd make the pie and not give them a bit, and they Knew I meant it. I also told them one more word of whining and they'd be done picking and would go inside to no pie. They closed their mouths, got busy, and enjoyed pie later :). And learned about about "those who don't work, don't eat."

 

Just a word of caution: there are strong willed kids who would have simply said "OK, fine, then I'll have no pie".

[SparklyUnicorn]

Just a word of caution: there are strong willed kids who would have simply said "OK, fine, then I'll have no pie".

 

Or who would have "sucked it up for pie" and then passed out from the heat because they were dehydrated.

 

Not that I cave with every whine and complaint, but I don't think it's fair to assume there is nothing valid with a complaint.  They really might be trying to tell you something serious. 

[hepatica]

Just a word of caution: there are strong willed kids who would have simply said "OK, fine, then I'll have no pie".

 

I have one of these kids. My oldest cried very infrequently as a baby, but when she did she would hold her breath until she passed out. Her early teen years have been a lesson in humility for me. I could hold firm, and I suppose eventually I could break her, but who wants to do that??? People are different, and an authoritarian relationship just wouldn't work with this child. The relationship matters more!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I wouldn't be motivated by pie truth be told.

 

 

[MotherGoose]

Just a word of caution: there are strong willed kids who would have simply said "OK, fine, then I'll have no pie".

And that would be fine, natural and logical consequences and all. The entire family would have eaten the pie and enjoyed it, and I wouldn't have allowed said child to have any. Mama's blackberry pie worked just fine for my family as currency.

[MotherGoose]

Or who would have "sucked it up for pie" and then passed out from the heat because they were dehydrated.

 

Not that I cave with every whine and complaint, but I don't think it's fair to assume there is nothing valid with a complaint. They really might be trying to tell you something serious.

If a pregnant woman and a older lady with a broken foot could pick blackberries for 20 minutes with no ill effects, so could, and did, 2 healthy children.

This was not unreasonable, they just did not feel Ike sweating. My goodness do you never have your children do things they don't want to just because you are the parent, you know best, and they need to obey?

[Murphy101]

I wasn't talking about having expensive things in my comment which you quoted. I was talking about people who never ever had to lift a finger to help keep the house neat or take care of their own things, because they had a dozen house servants. Who, as young kids, had a team of people work together to get them to eat (feeding them by hand) even after they started school (their servants would bring them freshly-cooked food and feed it into their mouths at school lunch time). Who were always given a treat or positive attention at the first sign of whimpering or pouting. My friend used to demand that her mom put her socks on exactly a certain way, and if she didn't, kid would scream and rip the socks off, and mom would patiently put them on again (better this time). (My friend told me this herself.) Another friend (other part of the world) told me how he used to come home from school and disrobe, dropping his clothes wherever he happened to be standing / walking through, and his maid would follow behind him, pick them up, and take care of them. This was normal in those cultures (at least at their status levels). These and others like them grew up to be some of the nicest, most responsible people I've known.

 

LOL. Having maids to walk behind you picking up your mess is most certainly having "expensive things".

 

And sure I have no doubt they are nice folks. To everyone except the person walking behind them.

 

Whether that would make my child spoiled or not, I would never allow it because it is inconsiderate of the maid.

 

And I'm aware it's a different culture standard. Which I guess is fine as I'm unlikely to have to ever deal with it due to my own socieo economic level, which is probably why I see it from the maid's perspective.

 

I wonder if the maid permits her children to behave that way...

 

And I wonder if their parents would allow it if they were the one walking behind their kid constantly...

[Susan in TN]

I wouldn't be motivated by pie truth be told.

That is sad. In my estimation, pie is on the top tier of all desserts and motivating factors. :D

[unsinkable]

Just a word of caution: there are strong willed kids who would have simply said "OK, fine, then I'll have no pie".

IME, people who have those kids usually know it looooooong before the kids reach the *berry picking = pie for you* stage of life.

 

Of course, YMMV and all that.

[Valley Girl]

If a pregnant woman and a older lady with a broken foot could pick blackberries for 20 minutes with no ill effects, so could, and did, 2 healthy children.

This was not unreasonable, they just did not feel Ike sweating. My goodness do you never have your children do things they don't want to just because you are the parent, you know best, and they need to obey?

 

One of the things I'm trying to drive home to my kids is that EVERYBODY has things they don't want to do but must anyway. Dad doesn't want to spend 2 hours doing a work project at night. Mom doesn't want to run errands all afternoon Saturday. A particular child may not want to help carry in the groceries or cut the grass or whatever. But reasonable tasks need to be done, hopefully without complaining and carrying on about it. That's a life lesson. Maybe it's pitching in to pick a few berries now, so you can have pie for dessert. Years later it may be doing a boring report your boss assigned you, so you can keep your job and feed your family.

[SKL]

LOL. Having maids to walk behind you picking up your mess is most certainly having "expensive things".

 

And sure I have no doubt they are nice folks. To everyone except the person walking behind them.

 

Whether that would make my child spoiled or not, I would never allow it because it is inconsiderate of the maid.

 

And I'm aware it's a different culture standard. Which I guess is fine as I'm unlikely to have to ever deal with it due to my own socieo economic level, which is probably why I see it from the maid's perspective.

 

I wonder if the maid permits her children to behave that way...

 

And I wonder if their parents would allow it if they were the one walking behind their kid constantly...

 

Maids are not expensive at all in developing countries.  My friend used to say one meal with meat cost the same as a month of maid service in her home country.

 

Yeah, I would not allow that behavior either, because I was raised differently.

 

And yes, the moms become slaves to their young kids in those cultures, because they think it is important to the kids' development to experience that.  It is hard for us to visualize, but I have seen it in many families (including immigrants in the US who don't have maids - what a hard life some of my friends have, working, cooking traditional meals, cleaning, and raising indulged kids without any significant help).  I can understand the cultural logic and I incorporate some aspects of it, though I do not teach my kids to be screamers or slobs.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I want to make sure my children grow up not thinking they are too good to do anything, and to have all the necessary skillsto operate a house, deal with vehicles (not changing oil, but just basic responsibilities), and to have a spirit of being willing to pitch in when other people need help. I also don't want them to grow up expecting elaborate gifts, and I want them to accept, without much if any protest, "the answer is no, you can't have or do that." So for example, sometimes, on special occasions, we get the free cookie at Moes, but most of the time we don't because it's not good for you to eat cookies frequently. There is no protest, because I have told them if they do, the answer will always be no. As for work, I expect them to help out when I ask them to, and they have regular chores. A great example of meaningful work occurred this summer when my mother, who had a broken foot, and I, who am pregnant, were out picking my blackberries for a pie. It was very hot, and none of us really wanted to be out there, but we wanted the pie! The girls were picking the low berries, and the adults were picking the high ones. The girls were whining about the heat and wanted to go inside, and I told them that if they didn't help pick and stop the whining, we'd make the pie and not give them a bit, and they Knew I meant it. I also told them one more word of whining and they'd be done picking and would go inside to no pie. They closed their mouths, got busy, and enjoyed pie later :). And learned about about "those who don't work, don't eat."

Sounds like The Little Red Hen to me!  

[regentrude]

. My goodness do you never have your children do things they don't want to just because you are the parent, you know best, and they need to obey?

 

No.

Not if I cannot come up with a good reason besides "I'm the parent, I know best, they need to obey".

 

I have made my kids do plenty of things they did not want to do - but never for the above reason. I am raising critically thinking human beings, not dogs.

[SKL]

No.

Not if I cannot come up with a good reason besides "I'm the parent, I know best, they need to obey".

 

I have made my kids do plenty of things they did not want to do - but never for the above reason. I am raising critically thinking human beings, not dogs.

 

Though I have said "because I said so" when I am too tired and frazzled to explain in kid-friendly terms.

 

Critical thinking includes knowing when to not press on Mama's last nerve.  :P

[MotherGoose]

No.

Not if I cannot come up with a good reason besides "I'm the parent, I know best, they need to obey".

 

I have made my kids do plenty of things they did not want to do - but never for the above reason. I am raising critically thinking human beings, not dogs.

 

I think we will have to disagree on this one a bit.  I do explain reasons to them, but at some point, in the irrational minds of mine (and most) children, I think, where there's no reasoning anymore and they just need to do it.  

"Please set the table because we need to have utensils with which to eat."

"No, I don't wanna."

"Set the table." 

 

"Please go get your sister a towel because she's in the tub."  

"WHY???? I'm busy!"

"She's trapped in the tub, with no towel, I'm busy cooking your supper."  

"NOOOO! I'm playing"  

"Get the towel." 

 

I don't mind offering explanations and reasons for chores, but there are also times when you need to do what I say because I'm busy, or whatever.  Or it's a safety issue or an emergency.  Or usually, because I've told you ten times the reason why you need to do this and you KNOW the reason, and you are trying to argue about it.  Life's too short.  

 

An employer is not going to sit down and pacify you through every problem that might come up in your job and offer you lengthy explanations for every little thing.  Some things you need to do because you are told to do them by an authority and there's nothing morally wrong or dangerous about them.

[SKL]

The girls were whining about the heat and wanted to go inside, and I told them that if they didn't help pick and stop the whining, we'd make the pie and not give them a bit, and they Knew I meant it. I also told them one more word of whining and they'd be done picking and would go inside to no pie. They closed their mouths, got busy, and enjoyed pie later :). And learned about about "those who don't work, don't eat."

 

This is where it falls apart for many if not all of us at some time or other.

 

Personally I'd be out there picking with this nostalgic / idealistic vision of how family blueberry pie day is supposed to work.  A nice special experience which I probably planned for by working extra late, getting low on sleep, and putting off some other stressful thing which is still in the back of my mind.  Kids start being idiots and I'm probably not at my most mature either.  But I don't want to give up the idea of eating the pie with my kids.  I want to be making a good memory, not making everyone cry.

 

Ultimately I do end / cancel stuff if the kids are exceeding reasonable expectations, but man it is hard.  If some non-parent adult is involved it is pretty much impossible to back out.  (Then I have to figure out some other, possibly less effective discipline for later.)

 

So, a question - would you really have eaten the blueberry pie in front of the little one who whined too much or picked too little?

[MotherGoose]

This is where it falls apart for many if not all of us at some time or other.

 

Personally I'd be out there picking with this nostalgic / idealistic vision of how family blueberry pie day is supposed to work. A nice special experience which I probably planned for by working extra late, getting low on sleep, and putting off some other stressful thing which is still in the back of my mind. Kids start being idiots and I'm probably not at my most mature either. But I don't want to give up the idea of eating the pie with my kids. I want to be making a good memory, not making everyone cry.

 

Ultimately I do end / cancel stuff if the kids are exceeding reasonable expectations, but man it is hard. If some non-parent adult is involved it is pretty much impossible to back out. (Then I have to figure out some other, possibly less effective discipline for later.)

 

So, a question - would you really have eaten the blueberry pie in front of the little one who whined too much or picked too little?

This was not a planned experience or anything--we walked outside to my garden and picked berries, walked back in and made the pie. No big deal. If we had traveled to a u pick operation I would have not been as definite About the rules, in that situation it would have been more of a fun outing--pick for awhile, then go play.

 

The expectations in this particular situation were very minimal, and the work was easy. They just decided it was too hot to be bothered with it--they wanted to sit inside in the ac while pregnant mama and older grandma with the broken foot picked alone, and enjoy the pie later.

 

But yes, to answer your question, I most certainly would have eaten the pie in front of the kids. And I can guarantee that next time a similar situation arose, they would have learned their lesson. Maybe all kids wouldn't but mine have certainly learned from similar situation in the past. I'm not mean about it, I'm just matter of fact. I grew up on a farm, and I had to go out and do work when I didn't want to, when it was hot, etc. I well remember staring down a 50 foot row of corn, as a teenager, and NOT wanting to hoe out the weeds, but knowing I had to. It's very good for the character, I think, to be made to do things one doesn't want to, things that no one wants to do but that Need to be done for the good of the family. But I surely enjoyed eating the corn when it was ready, and My parents were always sincerely appreciative of the work I did, as am I of my children. I want my children to learn that work comes before pleasure, and that if they want pie, someone somewhere is going to I be picking the berries and it might as well be them.

 

(Sorry for the random capitals, iPad.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

If a pregnant woman and a older lady with a broken foot could pick blackberries for 20 minutes with no ill effects, so could, and did, 2 healthy children.

This was not unreasonable, they just did not feel Ike sweating. My goodness do you never have your children do things they don't want to just because you are the parent, you know best, and they need to obey?

 

I've been wrong on more than one occasion.  I'm not above making mistakes because I'm the mother who knows best.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is where it falls apart for many if not all of us at some time or other.

 

Personally I'd be out there picking with this nostalgic / idealistic vision of how family blueberry pie day is supposed to work.  A nice special experience which I probably planned for by working extra late, getting low on sleep, and putting off some other stressful thing which is still in the back of my mind.  Kids start being idiots and I'm probably not at my most mature either.  But I don't want to give up the idea of eating the pie with my kids.  I want to be making a good memory, not making everyone cry.

 

Ultimately I do end / cancel stuff if the kids are exceeding reasonable expectations, but man it is hard.  If some non-parent adult is involved it is pretty much impossible to back out.  (Then I have to figure out some other, possibly less effective discipline for later.)

 

So, a question - would you really have eaten the blueberry pie in front of the little one who whined too much or picked too little?

 

This I can relate to quite heavily.  I've often wanted to have these special memories.  And it turned out miserable for everyone because I wasn't really considering what they'd actually enjoy doing.  If I appeared to be enjoying it myself that was simply me not wanting to admit how much it sucked.  LOL 

[SKL]

I send my kids to a barn where they have to clean poop for about an hour before they can ride a horse.  They don't like cleaning the poop, but they like riding the horse, so they keep going back.  ;)

 

I do pay a lot of money for them to have that little life lesson.

[albeto.]

Just a word of caution: there are strong willed kids who would have simply said "OK, fine, then I'll have no pie".

 

Then there are the very strong willed children who learn the lesson of manipulation from experiences like this. 

 

:cool:

[SparklyUnicorn]

I send my kids to a barn where they have to clean poop for about an hour before they can ride a horse.  They don't like cleaning the poop, but they like riding the horse, so they keep going back.  ;)

 

I do pay a lot of money for them to have that little life lesson.

 

I've heard more than one parent say their kids willingly scoop poop to ride a horse.  LOL